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對吧這個是你們的數據然後佔外籍被保險人總給付的75%"},{"start":108.595,"end":123.555,"text":"那本國的勞工同一比例只有49%所以部長75%也就是四分之三的外籍給付都集中在這一項這代表說這個制度其實已經有出現給付結構明顯偏移的狀況"},{"start":124.916,"end":136.241,"text":"那在這個勞保基金每年要撥補一千多億的前提之下其實現在這樣子的制度產生了一個問題叫做在台繳費全球提領的設計這就已經觸及到分配正義的核心問題所以我要再問那請問他提出這些申請的時候你們外館的驗證呢是程序審查還是實質審查"},{"start":149.009,"end":154.908,"text":"這個勞保局有沒有能力確認這一切死亡證明的內容完全屬實請問有沒有辦法"},{"start":156.345,"end":177.875,"text":"跟文說明其實因為其實現在這個因為不管是本國人或外國人都必須要投保勞保對那因為投保勞保所以他會有他的一些權權權利跟義務上面的狀況所以的確因為現在除了家事移工以外"},{"start":178.895,"end":202.932,"text":"其他的產業移工都是必須要投保勞保所以投保勞保裡面其中一個給付的項目就是家屬死亡的給付項目這並不是所以我想要問我剛剛就問了我的問題部長沒有回答我我說你們是程序審查還是實質審查這個部分勞保局有沒有完全有能力可以確認跨國的這些死亡證明內容完全屬實呢有沒有辦法因為這個後面的問題我要一一跟你討論跟人說明"},{"start":204.033,"end":231.676,"text":"就我知道勞保局在這方面的審查他是需要靠我們駐外單位來去驗證他相關的死亡證明的對所以其實不容易審查事實上是這樣子所以接下來就會討論到你剛剛說到的這個基於我們剛剛討論基於不管是普世價值或關懷人權我相信制度讓他們可以領我也不反對但是你怎麼消弭相對的剝奪感以及觸及這個分配正義的問題所以剛剛你有提到產業產業類的移工是強制勞保"},{"start":232.977,"end":256.173,"text":"那你剛剛說家事類是不強制所以結果就發生了一件事移工從弱勢家庭跑去工廠那工廠有勞保而且他還可以領家屬死亡給付薪水又相對高所以這就是現在普遍上講說造成喜功的一個原因之一那弱勢家庭本身就有經濟壓力而且還要面對移工被搶走政府雖然免了兩千元的安定費但勞保費的問題是完全沒有解決到所以剛剛你討論到"},{"start":260.196,"end":275.272,"text":"講到這個問題也導致這個制度的設計也有可能讓這個資源豐厚的企業從弱勢家庭中搶人其實之前你們也一直很擔心類似的事情所以是不是應該要研議讓勞保給付有不同的選項讓這個負擔沉重的家庭有喘息空間"},{"start":276.947,"end":296.718,"text":"跟委員說明如果按照委員剛才講的邏輯裡面就是兩個做法一個做法是如果按照委員剛才說的邏輯因為家事移工他這個因為企業的移工他有勞保所以他條件比較好所以雇儲網那種地方所以委員是贊成也贊成家事移工要保勞保嗎"},{"start":297.699,"end":317.206,"text":"我是要一步一步跟你討論這個制度本身出現的問題所以我的意思是說我剛剛講說因為他保了勞保所以導致他什麼他的家屬如果他的家屬不在台灣也沒有在台灣工作他在他的國家死亡了這個在台灣工作的勞工他可以領到家屬給付所以今天的問題就是他因為擁有了這個優越的比較優越的條件"},{"start":318.246,"end":336.375,"text":"所以你在這個制度上設計就導致他可能會這樣子偏移所以我剛剛也第一題就講了75%他在整個支付裡面他佔的75%是來自於這個家屬給付所以部長我覺得你可能有點搞不清楚我現在到底要表達的議題是什麼委員的資訊不是很精準我請我們局長來說明"},{"start":337.54,"end":362.178,"text":"跟委員做報告就是在勞保是一個綜合保險所以他包含剛才委員提到的死亡給付裡面有家屬死亡給付也有本人死亡給付那其實他還有絕大部分的給付是生育傷病老年那剛才提到的我就是要跟你討論家屬這個死亡給付的部分那跟委員報告剛才75%可能在那篇報導裡面的相關數字裡面他沒有把老年給付生育指數放進去所以我現在要跟你進一步討論跟你說好"},{"start":363.739,"end":386.105,"text":"那我就問你,國保跟勞保,同為社保,你剛剛講社保,其實他權益也是田茶地園。那你剛剛講到的這些,可能外籍移工他來到台灣,他工作了,我們覺得他對台灣貢獻,我們應該對於他要有相關的保險,這個沒有問題。但是,這個簡單的問題就是,國民年金有300多萬人被保險人,家庭主婦代業者他們父母配偶死亡的時候,請問我們國保有給他們相關的給付嗎?"},{"start":389.608,"end":411.121,"text":"這些被保險人家屬他死亡的時候有沒有跟各位說明第一個這邊沒有可是我們現在比較的標準其實是應該同時都在勞保裡面去比較所以這是有一個我剛剛講到這個東西就是有分配這一個問題因為勞保是他也要付勞保的勞保去比較對不對好我們就下一步來看你剛有說公平的問題嘛所以我要跟你說其實這不是這是台灣現在設計這個制度上真的出現的問題"},{"start":412.142,"end":440.401,"text":"像你如果說美國好了美國他的social security對於他的外國人他其實有除了他有credit的門檻的限制之外他還要加五年的居住要求但是台灣呢其實一公若你一入境加保了他隔天他的家屬在他的國家死亡了他就可以申請三個月的補助那他連一天的等待期都沒有所以我要講的事情是這個問題現在的制度設計是有問題的所以我不是說要歧視誰是最起碼是不是應該要給一個設定一個"},{"start":442.222,"end":468.542,"text":"相關的門檻和投保最低的期間這是美國的設計那再來所以我希望你們可以去研議這個部分的可行性因為你說要統一可是其實我等一下再跟你講統一的問題呢你去看其他的國家國際的比較其實事實上全世界全世界在這樣子的制度裡面我想要跟你說我想要問你印尼的BPJS有沒有被保險人家屬死亡的補助"},{"start":469.761,"end":482.493,"text":"有沒有跟文說明這部分當然我們可以去查證相關資料但我想跟文說明我想跟你說明的是說讓我先先先說明該講的部分第一個其實在我們的資料裡面這個"},{"start":489.111,"end":514.083,"text":"外國的被保險人他其實個人負擔的勞保的保費一年在114年的話是57.8億我想要跟你說你想要表達的是 我不知道你想要表達什麼你想要表達的是說他其實有付出所以他有拿到這個但是我要跟你講的是你這樣子的給付我都相信你可以把這個給付可以放在真正被保險的勞工身上"},{"start":514.463,"end":529.275,"text":"而不是放在這個你可能完全沒有辦法查核而且呢也其他國家也沒有這樣子制度的給付上面我要跟你表達如果委員這樣說的意思的話就變成說是要把外籍的移工從我們的社會保險制度裡面把他給排除嗎你這個部分你應該要參考其他國際的案例我現在就要講給你聽啊所以我的意思是說委員主張"},{"start":534.019,"end":562.564,"text":"在我們的產業移工裡面我覺得你應該回去研議一下因為印尼沒有菲律賓沒有我們都有跟他如果說要對等接軌國際的話我剛剛講的這些都是國際的案例第一個美國也沒有這樣子的這麼開放的規定第二個你跟印尼印尼也沒有菲律賓沒有越南沒有新加坡沒有德國也沒有所以我剛剛跟你講這個你應該要回去研議一下所以你覺得我們的社會保險制度裡面勞保制度裡面要不要把外籍的移工直接給排除掉"},{"start":562.984,"end":569.052,"text":"我沒有說要直接排除喔我說你應該嚴義讓他讓他真正的這個幾父放到給這個勞工身上所以我現在要講給你聽喔我查了主要的幾個這個我們的來源國的社保制度我剛剛講這幾個都沒有都沒有一個所謂的勞工本人死亡然後幾父家屬"},{"start":579.545,"end":602.344,"text":"沒有 這個通常是這樣子勞工本人死亡 給付家屬沒有問題但是沒有任何一個國家是勞工的家屬死亡你給付勞工的設計這個移工的部分所以新加坡 我跟你講新加坡2003年的時候他也把這個移工排出他的CPF之外他2024年的時候關閉所有非公民帳戶但是 但是我要強調的我們尊重 而且我們也感謝他對於台灣的這個貢獻"},{"start":603.985,"end":626.118,"text":"所以他是用了WICA保障這個工商那我跟你講歐盟呢他的EESSI的系統他有32國的電子查核但是對於第三國的勞工還是有限制所以部長我跟你講我現在不是跟你吵架我跟你說這個制度現在是有問題而且值得檢討全世界只有台灣你在沒有所謂的社安協定沒有電子查核系統的情況之下"},{"start":626.738,"end":653.299,"text":"你單方面的讓外籍移工跨境請領家屬的死亡給付我就要問你我剛才說要對等嘛那請問國與國的互惠在哪裡如果我們今天我們的這個台灣的國民他在譬如說他在印尼他在新加坡或者他在其他國家他工作了那他的家屬在台灣死亡了請問那些國家有沒有給我這樣的給我們這樣的給付呢我要講的是這個公文說明休文可以讓我寫第一個你剛才講"},{"start":655.18,"end":678.155,"text":"應該講的是因為我們的勞保制度裡面就是有家屬的死亡給付因為外國人也加入在這個勞保制度裡面他們也要繳保費所以我們也要有負擔所以部長請你好好看一下我今天叫你回去研議請你們去研究如果你都還沒研議和研究的情況之下不要用這種方式來溝通不是我剛剛講的你沒有讓我說完讓我說完可以嗎可以你說第一個"},{"start":679.788,"end":691.768,"text":"除非今天要設計的是在因為你剛才講到的外國的保險的制度社會保險制度要去確認你剛才說外國的勞工並沒有家屬給付可是他是不是本國也沒有"},{"start":692.785,"end":720.123,"text":"所以它其實是你同時在這個保險制度裡面因為本國人跟外國人都加入進去所以它原本是本國人也沒有加數死亡給付部長我就給你看新加坡的案例新加坡它的CPF從1987年逐步限縮外籍移工2003年完全排除而且2024年也關閉所有非公民帳戶所以你剛剛講的問題我現在已經回答你了但是它同時有用WICA來保障工商"},{"start":720.963,"end":743.566,"text":"讓雇主去買保險那他工商的死亡最高賠償也是很高的所以邏輯很清楚邏輯很清楚喔部長工商保障由雇主負責社會福利留給本國國民然後精準資源要精準使用保障真正該被保障的而不是現在整個結構偏移你把很多的這個移工他可能申請的補助裡面很大量的是他的家屬在"},{"start":744.706,"end":770.98,"text":"該國過世的時候申請了給付我們家族典容給付不是社會福利它是社會保險但是你現在的這個社保它不是社會福利它是因為它有繳保費所以我要講啦你的社保就應該是社保嘛你要讓它的社會福利真正用在精準使用的地方所以你的社會福利應該真正是要留給國內的公民那這個社會福利你剛剛所謂的社保這樣子的福利它這樣子的制度已經變得有點像福利的一種了我們社會保險跟社會福利是不一樣的當然是不一樣"},{"start":771.42,"end":792.72,"text":"社會保險跟社會福利不一樣可是你這條的規定在這裡看起來就是已經不夠精準了是社會保險我要跟你講邏輯很清楚工商保障這個人真正這個勞工真正在台灣工作的他有任何的受傷他有任何的不確定性我們都支持給他更好的保障好 但是如果他的家屬是你講的新加坡的CPF是不是社會保險"},{"start":793.24,"end":807.251,"text":"所以我跟你講沒有它就是社會保險的一種沒有錯啊所以我要跟你講的我要跟你講的就是明明就已經有這麼多國家案例然後你還是要硬扯你都不好好的去研究你就回去跟我說你好好的研究一下好不好我們研究新加坡的CPF並不是社會保險它是社會保險"},{"start":809.332,"end":824.164,"text":"是不是還有美國的社會保障所以我的意思是說今天我們今天已經跟你講了很多國家沒有這樣子的還是要討論社會福利所以我跟你說這個制度的福利的確如果是社會保障部長他如果是他如果這是有繳交保費的話我們在討論的是他就有繳交保費裡面的權利義務"},{"start":827.427,"end":853.319,"text":"來不及講 我們在討論的事情是那你就回答我 你就回答我假設我們的勞工我們到了其他國家我們也去做了這個所謂的相關的投保或是相關的這個工作那結果我們的臺灣勞工的家屬他在臺灣死亡了那個國家會不會支付給他這個所謂的資料但是那個國家他可能他原本說有 有沒有家屬死亡給付啊來 部長你回答有或沒有就好不是 委員所以我們要跟你講的是委員你要去檢討這個你沒有把概念弄對當然概念是這樣"},{"start":856.34,"end":879.514,"text":"我概念我跟你講的就是這樣這個制度本身它已經有一個設計的問題存在你應該是可以去檢討說它這個部分應該怎麼樣把它獨立出來而且究竟公不公平或者或者你應該把這件事情去討論你跟另外一個國家在簽訂這些關係的時候說這個是不是我們應該要互相互相對等的情況之下來做這件事情部長我要跟你講的就是這樣"},{"start":880.655,"end":901.929,"text":"好不好 我已經提了這麼多國家的案子 你可以回去好好的研議一下 你可以請你們的同仁我們會回去研議 那我們回去研議的時候 把剛剛講到的各種制度 它是屬於社會福利 還是屬於社會保險所以 這部分我們都要去確認清楚 我們三個很明確的第一個 三十天內請你們給我們外籍家屬死亡給付推薦的統計報告"},{"start":903.61,"end":931.43,"text":"好然後另外一個是三個月內你們所謂勞保跨境給付法規的影響評估就像我剛提的我剛是告訴你其他國家都沒有這樣子的狀況那我們呢我們是不是有需要調整的地方而且把這個資源精準使用保障該被保障的人這是第二個要求第三個你們在半年內應該也可以啟動所謂勞動力輸出國你們這個社安資訊交換的談判因為我剛說了你剛自己也回答不太出來你可能需要社外單位去確認這一些"},{"start":933.031,"end":949.548,"text":"這些這個死亡的證明是不是真的是精準的這都是現在制度出現的問題本席提供給你一個參考的政策方向的意見好不好跟我們說明第一個我們可以來確認比方說如果勞工在外國他的家屬死亡的話相關的證件的驗證"},{"start":950.689,"end":960.054,"text":"是不是能夠做到更精準所以我就三件事在這裡給你我們能夠做到更精準這部分我們可以來研議這件事情你剛剛已經講了我只是補充說你讓我說完嗎第一個我說對於這些相關的證明文件"},{"start":969.238,"end":984.132,"text":"的驗證是否夠精準這事情我們可以跟駐外單位來去研議怎麼樣這事情能夠更精準不要有好像大家覺得資訊上面無法確認的狀況我覺得這部分我們可以來研議第二個維根跟委員說對各國不同的社會保險制度"},{"start":985.733,"end":1005.26,"text":"不同社會保險制度下面那這些相關的給付那我們也可以來研議各種情形的狀況我們也可以把這個資料再整理給委員那在這個資料的前提下面第一個我們也需要認清楚每個制度它到底是屬於社會福利還是屬於社會保險因為如果是社會保險的話它的權利是來自於它有繳保費"},{"start":1007.679,"end":1022.891,"text":"如果要把一個權利那第一個可能會涉及到修法第二個是他的權利是來自他的繳保費所以這是社會保險但如果社會福利就不用所以我們要先弄清楚每一個在我們剛剛所提到的制度是社會福利還是社會保險這是不同的狀況這個社會保險走到現在"},{"start":1025.393,"end":1053.831,"text":"啊我剛剛也點出很多問題你自己也承認說好你要回去檢討一下這個驗證到底精不精準然後其他國家的比較是這部分我們可以檢討所以我要跟你講就是說我剛剛把所有的狀況點出來我並不是為了跟你吵架我要跟你講這個是現在不是跟你吵架我只是對我應該做的說明對我現在這些事情都是現在正在發生的事所以請你們回去研議我們的要求三件事就是這三件事齁請你答應回去研議第一個三十天內給我們給我本辦公室外籍家屬死亡的幾副推薦統計報告"},{"start":1055.032,"end":1077.124,"text":"第二個三個月內你們這個勞保跨境給付的法規影響評估我們剛剛講到的那些問題第三個就是半年內你跟這個啟動勞動力輸出國社安資訊交換的談判這個社安資訊就是我剛剛說的你的那些你說是不是找諸位單位把它的資料驗證更精準所以我的要求很清楚那也跟我剛剛的質詢內容相呼應謝謝部長好 謝謝廖偉祥委員發言單位臨時分委員質詢完畢後我們要休息"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:10:59.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:11:06.228000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們先請洪部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-09T10:11:06.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:11:06.288000+08:00","text":"有請洪部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:11:06.288000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:11:14.037500+08:00","text":"廖委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:11:14.037500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:11:21.787000+08:00","text":"部長好，辛苦了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:11:21.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:11:36.479000+08:00","text":"今天討論這個議題真的很重要，國際接軌的部分，包含相關的人權或者對等，我想這些都是值得討論以及與時俱進，到底應該怎麼去調整我們的制度。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:11:37.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:11:50.855000+08:00","text":"我想先請問部長，現在外籍移工被保險人申請他的家屬死亡給付，勞保局一年大概核付了多少件、退件率是多少，請問部長知不知道？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"白局長麗真","start":"2026-04-09T10:11:58.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:12:11.521000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，近5年外籍被保險人請領勞保的家屬死亡給付，如果以114年來看，全體被保險人請領件數是十四萬兩千多件，其中外籍是九千四百多件。","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:12:16.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:12:30.135000+08:00","text":"我們去查你們的資料，從107年至114年6月，外籍被保險人家屬死亡給付，就是他來這裡工作，家屬在他的國家死亡了，我們總共給付了6.1萬件，金額51.1億元，對吧！","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:12:30.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:12:44.679000+08:00","text":"這個是你們的數據，占外籍被保險人總給付的75%，而本國勞工比例只有49%。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:12:44.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:12:56.555000+08:00","text":"所以部長，75%也就是四分之三的外籍給付都集中在這一項，代表這個制度其實已經出現給付結構明顯偏移的狀況。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:12:58.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:13:06.700000+08:00","text":"在勞保基金每年要撥補一千多億元的前提之下，現在這樣的制度產生了一個問題叫做「在臺繳費、全球提領」的設計，已經觸及分配正義的核心問題。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:13:06.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:13:09.221000+08:00","text":"所以我要再問，他們提出這些申請的時候，你們外館的驗證是程序審查，還是實質審查？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:13:22.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:13:26.845000+08:00","text":"勞保局有沒有能力確認死亡證明的一切內容完全屬實？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:13:26.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:13:27.888000+08:00","text":"請問有沒有辦法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:13:29.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:13:40.550000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，其實不管是本國人或外國人，都必須投保勞保……對！","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:13:41.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:13:46.153000+08:00","text":"因為投保勞保，他會有一些權利和義務上面的狀況。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:13:48.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:14:00.922000+08:00","text":"現在除了家事移工以外，其他的產業移工是必須投保勞保的，投保勞保以後，其中一個給付項目就是家屬死亡給付，這並不是只有移工才有的。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:14:02.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:14:12.170000+08:00","text":"我剛剛的問題部長沒有回答我，我說你們是程序審查還是實質審查，這個部分勞保局是否完全有能力確認跨國的死亡證明完全屬實呢？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:14:12.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:14:13.030000+08:00","text":"有沒有辦法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:14:13.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:14:15.112000+08:00","text":"因為後面的問題我還要一一跟你討論。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:14:15.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:14:22.958000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，據我所知，勞保局對死亡證明的審查是要靠駐外單位去驗證的。","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:14:23.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:14:25.680000+08:00","text":"對，所以其實不容易審查，事實上是這樣子的。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:14:26.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:14:40.393000+08:00","text":"所以接下來就會討論到你剛剛所說的，我們剛剛討論不管是基於普世價值或關懷人權，我相信制度讓他們可以領，我也不反對，但是你怎麼消弭相對的剝奪感並處理分配正義的問題？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:14:41.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:15:01.047000+08:00","text":"你剛剛提到產業類移工是強制參加勞保，家事類移工不強制，結果就發生了一件事：移工從弱勢家庭跑去工廠工作，工廠有勞保，而且他還可以領家屬死亡給付，薪水又相對較高，所以這就是現在普遍說造成「洗工」的原因之一。","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:15:01.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:15:09.033000+08:00","text":"弱勢家庭本身就有經濟壓力，還要面對移工被搶走，政府雖然免了2,000元的就業安定費，但勞保費的問題完全沒有解決。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:15:09.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:15:28.272000+08:00","text":"剛剛你講到的問題，這個制度設計有可能導致資源豐厚的企業從弱勢家庭中搶人，其實之前你們也一直很擔心類似的事情，所以是不是應該研議讓勞保給付有不同的選項，讓負擔沈重的家庭有喘息空間呢？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:15:29.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:15:49.718000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，如果按照委員剛剛講的邏輯，就是兩個做法，一個做法是因為企業移工有勞保，條件比較好，所以委員也贊成家事移工要保勞保嗎？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:15:50.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:15:54.380000+08:00","text":"我是要一步一步跟你討論這個制度本身出現的問題……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:15:54.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:15:55.181000+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是說，如果……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:15:55.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:16:05.584000+08:00","text":"我剛剛說因為他保了勞保，他的家屬如果不在臺灣，也沒有在臺灣工作，而在他的國家死亡了，這個在臺灣工作的移工可以領到家屬死亡給付。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:16:06.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:16:14.608000+08:00","text":"所以今天的問題就是，他因為擁有這個比較優越的條件，所以這個制度上的設計就導致它可能會這樣子偏移……","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:16:14.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:16:15.108000+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是說……","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:16:15.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:16:20.791000+08:00","text":"我剛剛第一題就講了，在整個支出裡面占了75%是來自這個家屬給付。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:16:22.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:16:27.133000+08:00","text":"部長，我覺得你可能有點搞不清楚我現在要表達的議題到底是什麼。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:16:27.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:16:29.355000+08:00","text":"因為委員的資訊不是很精準，我請局長來說明。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"白局長麗真","start":"2026-04-09T10:16:30.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:16:43.990000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，勞保是一個綜合保險，剛才委員提到的死亡給付（有家屬死亡給付，也有本人死亡給付），其實它還有絕大部分的給付是生育、傷病、老年，剛剛提到的百分之……","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:16:44.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:16:46.252000+08:00","text":"我就是要跟你討論家屬死亡給付的部分啊！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"白局長麗真","start":"2026-04-09T10:16:47.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:16:53.277000+08:00","text":"剛剛提到的75%可能在那篇報導的相關數字裡面，它沒有把老年給付、生育給付放進去。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:16:54.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:16:55.098000+08:00","text":"這些我全部都核實過，也研究過國際的資料，所以我是要跟你進一步討論。","quality":0.367},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:16:55.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:17:19.105000+08:00","text":"好，那我就問你，你剛剛講到社保，國保和勞保同為社保，其實他們的權益也是天差地別，你剛剛講這些外籍移工來到臺灣工作，因為他們對臺灣的貢獻，我們應該為他提供相關的保險，這個沒有問題，但是一個簡單的問題就是：國民年金有三百多萬被保險人，當家庭主婦或待業者的父母、配偶死亡的時候，請問國保有給他們相關的給付嗎？","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:17:22.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:17:24.369000+08:00","text":"這些被保險人的家屬死亡的時候有沒有？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰：跟委員說明","start":"2026-04-09T10:17:25.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:17:27.011000+08:00","text":"第一個，這邊沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰：跟委員說明","start":"2026-04-09T10:17:27.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:17:31.133000+08:00","text":"可是我們現在比較的標準應該是同時都在勞保裡面去比較。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:17:31.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:17:33.755000+08:00","text":"我剛剛講到這個東西就是有分配正義的問題……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:17:33.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:17:35.056000+08:00","text":"勞保是他也要付勞保的保費。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:17:35.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:17:36.737000+08:00","text":"好，在勞保裡面去比較對不對？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:17:36.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:17:54.789000+08:00","text":"那我們下一步就來看，你剛剛說公平的問題，其實這是臺灣現在這個制度設計上真正出現的問題，以美國為例，美國的social security對於外國人其實除了有credit門檻的階級之外，還要加5年的居住要求。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:17:55.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:18:10.639000+08:00","text":"但臺灣是如果移工一入境就加保，隔天他的家屬在他的國家死亡了，他就可以申請3個月的補助，連一天的等待期都沒有，所以我要講的是這個制度設計是有問題的。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:18:11.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:18:18.385000+08:00","text":"我不是要歧視誰，而是最起碼是不是應該設定一個相關的門檻和最低的投保期間？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:18:18.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:18:19.686000+08:00","text":"這是美國的設計喔！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:18:20.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:18:23.128000+08:00","text":"我希望你們可以去研議這個部分的可行性。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:18:23.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:18:28.773000+08:00","text":"再來，你說要統一，可是我等一下再跟你講，統一的問題你可以去看其他國家的做法。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:18:29.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:18:41.522000+08:00","text":"以國際比較來看，事實上全世界在這樣的制度裡面，我想問你，印尼的BPJS有沒有被保險人家屬的死亡補助？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:18:42.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:18:42.981000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:18:44.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:18:47.345000+08:00","text":"這部分我們當然可以去查相關資料，但是我想跟委員說明……","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:18:48.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:18:48.987000+08:00","text":"我想要跟你說明的是……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:18:49.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:19:11.435000+08:00","text":"可不可以讓我先說明剛剛講的部分，第一個，其實在我們的資料裡面，外國的被保險人其實個人負擔的勞保保費114年是57.8億……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:19:11.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:19:14.377000+08:00","text":"我想要跟你說，我知道你想要表達的是什麼……但是……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:19:14.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:19:18.319000+08:00","text":"你想要表達的是他其實有付出，所以他有拿到這個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:19:18.319000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:19:19.319000+08:00","text":"他的給付……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:19:18.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:19:35.269000+08:00","text":"但是我要跟你講的是，你這樣子的給付……我相信你可以把這個給付放在真正被保險的勞工身上，而不是放在這個你可能完全沒有辦法查核，而且其他國家也沒有此一給付制度上面，我要跟你表達的是這個。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:19:35.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:19:41.294000+08:00","text":"委員這樣說的意思就變成，要把外籍移工從我們的社會保險制度裡面給排除嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:19:41.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:19:41.895000+08:00","text":"這個部分你應該參考其他國家的案例，我現在就要講給你聽啊！","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:19:41.895000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:19:42.895000+08:00","text":"第一個，印尼沒有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:19:41.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:19:48.359000+08:00","text":"所以委員主張在我們的產業移工裡面……","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:19:48.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:19:50.220000+08:00","text":"我覺得你應該去研議一下喔！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:19:50.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:20:00.561000+08:00","text":"因為印尼沒有、菲律賓沒有，如果要對等、接軌國際的話，我剛剛講的這些都是國際的案例，第一個，美國也沒有這麼寬鬆的規定……可是……","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:20:00.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:20:07.283000+08:00","text":"第二個，印尼也沒有、菲律賓沒有、越南沒有、新加坡沒有、德國也沒有，所以我剛剛……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:20:07.283000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:20:08.283000+08:00","text":"那委員覺得我們該不該有？","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:20:07.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:20:09.603000+08:00","text":"這個你應該回去研議一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:20:09.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:20:15.544000+08:00","text":"委員，你覺得我們的社會保險制度裡面、勞保制度裡面，要不要把外籍移工直接排除掉？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:20:15.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:20:16.945000+08:00","text":"我沒有說要直接排除喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:20:17.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:20:17.286000+08:00","text":"我是說你應該研議……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:20:17.286000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:20:18.286000+08:00","text":"現在就是排除啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:20:17.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:20:17.886000+08:00","text":"應該研議把現在的給付放到勞工身上。","quality":0.438},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:20:18.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:20:20.410000+08:00","text":"所以我現在要講給你聽，我查了我們幾個移工主要來源國的社保制度，我剛剛講的這幾個國家都沒有。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:20:33.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:20:41.372000+08:00","text":"通常是勞工本人死亡、給付家屬，這沒有問題，但沒有任何一個國家是勞工家屬死亡、給付勞工的設計，這是移工的部分。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:20:43.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:20:52.201000+08:00","text":"新加坡2003年的時候也把移工排出他們的CPF之外，並在2004年關閉所有非公民帳戶。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:20:52.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:20:59.487000+08:00","text":"但是我要強調，如同我們尊重也感謝移工對臺灣的貢獻，他們是用WICA保障工傷。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:21:00.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:21:07.871000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，歐盟EESSI的系統有32國的電子查核，但是對於第三國的勞工還是有限制。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:21:08.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:21:27.384000+08:00","text":"所以部長，我現在不是要跟你吵架，而是要跟你說這個制度現在是有問題，而且值得檢討，全世界只有臺灣在沒有所謂的社安協定、電子查核系統的情況之下，單方面地讓外籍移工跨境請領家屬的死亡給付，我就要問你，我剛剛說了要對等嘛，那麼請問國與國的互惠在哪裡？","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:21:27.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:21:41.355000+08:00","text":"如果今天臺灣的國民在印尼、新加坡或其他國家工作，他的家屬在臺灣死亡了，請問那些國家有沒有給我們這樣的給付呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:21:41.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:21:42.676000+08:00","text":"我要講的是這個。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:21:42.676000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:21:45.178000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，希望委員給我一點時間。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:21:45.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:21:58.587000+08:00","text":"第一個，你剛才講的是因為我們的勞保制度裡面就是有家屬的死亡給付，因為外國人也加入這個勞保制度，他們也要繳保費，個人也要有負擔……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:21:58.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:22:02.029000+08:00","text":"部長，請你好好看一下，我今天是請你們回去研議，請你們去研究……","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:22:02.029000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:22:03.029000+08:00","text":"我們要去……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:22:02.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:22:06.192000+08:00","text":"在你們都還沒有研議和研究的情況之下，不要用這種方式來溝通啦！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:22:06.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:22:10.215000+08:00","text":"不是，委員，你沒有讓我說完，請讓我說完，可以嗎？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:22:10.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:22:11.035000+08:00","text":"可以，你說。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:22:11.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:22:24.748000+08:00","text":"第一個，除非今天要設計的是，因為你剛剛講到外國的社會保險制度，這要去確認，你剛剛說外國的勞工並沒有家屬死亡給付，可是他們是不是本國也沒有？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:22:25.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:22:36.052000+08:00","text":"所以它其實是同時在這個保險制度裡面，因為本國人和外國人都加進去，他們原本針對本國人也沒有家屬死亡給付……","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:22:36.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:22:37.813000+08:00","text":"部長，我就給你看新加坡的案例好不好？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:22:38.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:22:57.887000+08:00","text":"新加坡的CPF從1987年逐步限縮外籍移工，2003年完全排除，而且2024年也關閉所有非公民帳戶，所以你剛剛講的問題我現在已經回答你了，但是他們同時有用WICA來保障工傷，讓雇主去買保險，工傷死亡的最高賠償也是很高的。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:22:58.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:23:11.821000+08:00","text":"所以邏輯很清楚，部長，工傷保障由雇主負責，社會福利留給本國國民，資源要精準使用，保障真正該被保障的，而不是現在整個結構偏移。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:23:12.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:23:18.787000+08:00","text":"很多移工申請的補助，很大量的是他的家屬在該國過世的時候申請的給付，可是……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:23:19.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:23:22.209000+08:00","text":"委員，家屬死亡給付不是社會福利，它是社會保險。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:23:22.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:23:22.989000+08:00","text":"是社會保險，但是你現在這個做法已經讓它……","quality":0.389},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:23:22.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:23:26.111000+08:00","text":"它是社保，不是社會福利，是因為他也繳保費……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:23:26.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:23:40.918000+08:00","text":"對，所以我要講，你的社保就應該是社保，你要讓社會福利真正用在精準的地方，所以你的社會福利應該真正留給國內的公民，你剛剛所謂的社保這樣子的制度已經變成有點像一種福利了，所以……","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:23:41.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:23:43.520000+08:00","text":"委員，社會保險跟社會福利是不一樣的。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:23:43.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:23:49.064000+08:00","text":"當然是不一樣，社會保險跟社會福利不一樣，可是你這條的規定在這裡看起來就是不夠精準的……","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:23:49.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:23:49.745000+08:00","text":"是社會保險。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:23:49.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:24:02.256000+08:00","text":"我要跟你講，邏輯很清楚，以工傷保障來講，這個勞工真正在臺灣工作，他有任何的受傷、有任何的不確定性，我們都支持給他更好的保障，但是如果他的家屬是在……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:24:03.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:24:05.720000+08:00","text":"委員，我們要先確認你講的新加坡CPF是不是社會保險？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:24:06.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:24:08.822000+08:00","text":"沒有，它現在就是社會保險的一種，沒有錯啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:24:09.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:24:18.089000+08:00","text":"所以我要跟你講的就是明明就已經有這麼多國家的案例，你還是要硬扯，你都不好好地去研究，你就回去跟我說……你好好地研議一下，好不好？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:24:18.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:24:20.231000+08:00","text":"委員，就我們的理解，新加坡的CPF並不是社會保險，它是社會福利。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:24:20.231000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:24:24.234000+08:00","text":"我剛剛講了，美國也有，還有美國的social security也是這樣……","quality":0.156},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:24:24.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:24:26.015000+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是說，今天我們如果……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:24:26.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:24:27.576000+08:00","text":"所以我今天已經跟你講了，很多國家沒有這樣子……","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:24:28.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:24:29.458000+08:00","text":"我們今天要討論社會保險，還是要討論社會福利……","quality":0.45},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:24:29.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:24:30.459000+08:00","text":"所以我跟你說，這個制度……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:24:30.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:24:33.021000+08:00","text":"社會福利的確如同委員剛剛講的，如果是社會保險……","quality":0.476},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:24:33.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:24:34.582000+08:00","text":"部長，部長，我們在討論的是……部長，我要討論的事情是……","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:24:34.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:24:41.047000+08:00","text":"他如果同時有繳交保費的話，他就有繳交保費裡面的權利義務，這是社會保險的一部分。","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:24:42.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:24:56.914000+08:00","text":"那你就回答我，假設我們的勞工到了其他國家也做了相關的投保或是相關的工作，結果我們勞工的家屬在臺灣死亡了，那個國家會不會支付給他所謂的家屬死亡給付？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:24:57.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:25:00.676000+08:00","text":"但是那個國家可能原本社會保險裡面就沒有家屬死亡給付啊！","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:25:01.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:25:04.678000+08:00","text":"部長，你回答有或沒有就好，所以我們要跟你講的是你要去檢討這個，部長……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:25:04.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:25:06.139000+08:00","text":"不是，委員，您沒有把概念弄對！","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:25:06.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:25:19.386000+08:00","text":"當然概念是這樣，我跟你講的概念就是這樣，這個制度本身已經有一個設計的問題存在，你應該可以去檢討這個部分應該怎麼樣獨立出來，究竟公不公平。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:25:19.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:25:33.755000+08:00","text":"或者就這件事情，你跟另外一個國家在簽訂這些關係的時候，要去討論是不是應該在互相對等的情況之下來做這件事情，部長，我要跟你講的就是這樣，好不好？","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:25:33.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:25:38.838000+08:00","text":"我已經提了這麼多國家的案子，你回去好好地研議一下，你可以請你們的同仁，如果不曉得的話……","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:25:40.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:25:46.543000+08:00","text":"我跟委員說，我們會回去研議，我們回去研議的時候，把剛才講到的各種制度是屬於社會福利、還是屬於社會保險……","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:25:46.543000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:25:48.085000+08:00","text":"對，所以我請部長……","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:25:48.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:25:49.305000+08:00","text":"這部分我們都要去確認清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔：我們有3個很明確的要求","start":"2026-04-09T10:25:51.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:25:54.909000+08:00","text":"第一個，30天內請你們給我們外籍家屬死亡給付退件的統計報告。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔：我們有3個很明確的要求","start":"2026-04-09T10:25:57.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:26:08.999000+08:00","text":"另外一個是3個月內提出勞保跨境給付法規的影響評估，就像我剛剛提的，我剛剛是告訴你其他的國家都沒有這樣的狀況，我們是不是有需要調整的地方？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔：我們有3個很明確的要求","start":"2026-04-09T10:26:10.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:26:14.083000+08:00","text":"把這個資源精準使用，保障該被保障的人，這是第二個要求。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔：我們有3個很明確的要求","start":"2026-04-09T10:26:14.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:26:28.914000+08:00","text":"第三個，你們在半年內應該也可以啟動所謂勞動力輸出國社安資訊交換的談判，因為我剛剛說了，你剛剛自己也回答不太出來，你可能需要涉外單位去確認這些死亡證明是不是精準的。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔：我們有3個很明確的要求","start":"2026-04-09T10:26:29.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:26:34.460000+08:00","text":"這些都是現在制度出現的問題，本席提供給你一個政策的參考方向意見，好不好？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:26:34.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:26:44.990000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，第一個，我們可以來確認，比方如果勞工在外國，他的家屬死亡的話，相關證件的驗證是不是能夠做到更精準……","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:26:45.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:26:46.971000+08:00","text":"所以我這3件事在這裡給你。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:26:46.971000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:26:47.971000+08:00","text":"另外，剛剛……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:26:47.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:26:51.133000+08:00","text":"所以我是說，我們能不能做到更精準這部分，我們可以來研議這件事情……","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:26:51.133000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:26:52.133000+08:00","text":"還有我剛剛提供給你的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:26:52.133000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:26:53.133000+08:00","text":"委員，你先讓我說完嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:26:51.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:26:52.173000+08:00","text":"沒有，你剛剛已經講了，我只是補充說明，還有我剛剛提供的條件……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:26:52.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:26:52.353000+08:00","text":"委員，你讓我說完嘛。好。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:26:52.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:27:13.188000+08:00","text":"第一個，對於這些相關證明文件的驗證是否夠精準這件事情，我們可以跟駐外單位去研議，怎麼讓這事情能夠更精準，不要有好像大家覺得資訊上面無法確認的狀況，我覺得這部分我們可以來研議。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:27:13.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:27:28.656000+08:00","text":"第二個，我可以跟委員說，對於各國不同的社會保險制度下面這些相關的給付，我們也可以研議各種情境的狀況，我們可以把這個資料再整理給委員。好。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:27:28.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:27:43.922000+08:00","text":"在這個資料的前提下面，第一個，我們也需要認清楚每一個制度到底是屬於社會福利、還是屬於社會保險，因為如果是社會保險的話，他的權利是來自於他有繳保費，如果要把一個權利……因此第一個，可能會涉及到修法。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:27:44.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:27:49.806000+08:00","text":"第二個，他的權利其實是來自於他有繳保費，所以這是社會保險，但如果是社會福利就不用。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:27:50.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:27:55.551000+08:00","text":"所以我們要先弄清楚每一個我們剛才所提到的制度是社會福利還是社會保險，這是不同的狀況。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:27:55.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:28:04.517000+08:00","text":"部長，這個社會保險走到現在，我剛剛也點出很多問題，你自己也承認你要回去檢討一下，包括這個驗證到底精不精準、跟其他國家的比較……","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:28:04.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:28:05.137000+08:00","text":"是，這部分我們可以檢討。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:28:05.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:28:11.522000+08:00","text":"所以我要跟你講的是，我剛剛把所有的狀況點出來，並不是為了跟你吵架，我要跟你講，這個是現在正在發生的……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2026-04-09T10:28:11.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:28:13.863000+08:00","text":"委員，我也不是跟你吵架，我只是做我應該做的說明，我不是跟你吵架。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:28:14.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:28:45.021000+08:00","text":"對，這些事情都是現在正在發生的事，所以請你們回去研議，我們的要求就是這3件事，請你答應回去研議：第一個，30天內給本辦公室外籍家屬死亡給付退件的統計報告；第二個，3個月內提出勞保跨境給付的法規影響評估，包括我們剛剛講到的那些問題；第三個就是半年內你跟啟動勞動力輸出國社安資訊交換的談判，這個社安資訊就是我剛剛說的，你是不是要找駐外單位讓他們的資料驗證更精準？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2026-04-09T10:28:45.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:28:48.623000+08:00","text":"所以我的要求很清楚，也跟我剛剛的質詢內容相呼應，謝謝部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-09T10:28:48.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:28:48.943000+08:00","text":"謝謝廖偉翔委員發言。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-09T10:28:49.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:28:50.104000+08:00","text":"待會林淑芬委員質詢完畢後，我們要休息10分鐘。","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-09T10:28:50.604000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:28:53.461143+08:00","text":"現在請林淑芬委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}