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謝謝主席 是不是還是繼續請我們這個洪部長有請洪部長"},{"start":18.293,"end":36.125,"text":"部長我們在今年2月已經跟美國簽訂了這個台美對等貿易協定所謂的ART但是呢3月的時候呢美國在3月11號也宣布啟動301條款的調查但在ART裡面我們就已經承諾了你剛剛一直不斷的跟大家講的3年內要這個解決移工付費的這一個問題嘛"},{"start":42.009,"end":59.112,"text":"那既然美國要求貿易夥伴要共同禁止進口強迫勞動製品已經是既定的和持續的推展的政策那你一直講三年三年在這裡我要提醒你不是三年是剩不到兩年為什麼呢因為歐盟的禁止強迫勞動產品上市規章它將會在2027年的12月要實施2027年的12月離現在不到兩年"},{"start":69.614,"end":78.499,"text":"所以我要提醒你時間不是三年是不到兩年在這種狀況裡面台灣作為一個極度仰賴出口的經濟體然後移工的遭遇強迫勞動的這個問題也長年的在國際上被點名不管是漁工的或者是不當的仲介費的或者是其他議題的那我想就是說我們恐怕經不起怠慢這樣的一股趨勢"},{"start":98.391,"end":104.937,"text":"所以這個我要再提醒你就是我們對美國的出口比重從114年看起來我們已經是最大的出口市場對美國的出超已經達到1500億美元又刷新了紀錄而財政部在114年我國進出口的貿易概況講說美國是我國第一大出口國特別是人工"},{"start":123.192,"end":128.115,"text":"智慧熱潮帶動下來資通訊還有視聽產品的輸出總金額大概1983億美元這個連續9年正成長那對歐洲出口413億美元年增率也將近7%都是資通訊產品還有電子零組件還有機械"},{"start":144.468,"end":162.706,"text":"那這個大家都知道這個對我們來講很重要不到兩年的時間可是我們再看看我們的慘痛的經驗就是巨大巨大 自行車它因為涉及強迫勞動我們都知道說這個事情發生到現在也已經去年九月到現在也很久了"},{"start":163.226,"end":185.994,"text":"那他們呢有派集團代表去跟這個CPB就是美國海關和邊境保護局正式會面那也委託國際第三方平和的機構展開查核作業範圍包括了這個員工的訪談文件的檢視工廠和宿舍的實地和平內容還包括工作環境和生活設施的整體檢視而且在12月1號就完成了喔"},{"start":189.795,"end":213.911,"text":"巨大在去年的12月1號就完成將所有限職的外籍移工的所有的買工費通通返還給移工等於是雇主就幫所有的工廠裡面的外籍移工通通買單的仲介費啦但是呢到12月1號這樣做完以後到現在請問他解除禁令了東西出關了嗎"},{"start":215.595,"end":230.284,"text":"現在還沒還沒還沒沒那麼簡單所以我在這裡是說我們我去年十月也質詢暫扣令對企業來講是非常致命的他所有錢都付了所有的狀況都改善了"},{"start":231.064,"end":252.076,"text":"但是歷經了數個月有的人還歷經數年才得以解除這個禁令而我們的法規你剛剛講說我們要改了大概你認為就是這個暫扣文件然後還有這個不當的仲介費所以等一下行政院會就會通過這個救福法的這個修正案對不對"},{"start":253.277,"end":280.959,"text":"這是真的其中一項對但我現在在跟你講RBARBA並不是只有這樣子不是那一項指標而已其實我們要開始意識到零付費絕對是國際趨勢RBA最早就像全球的供應商發布零付費的政策最早是鎖定電子業和科技產業開始要求RBA但現在已經我們不是"},{"start":281.739,"end":300.85,"text":"資通訊產業或者是半導體產業而已現在已經要求擴展到代工的產業包括汽車產業醫療設備包裝加工業凡是國際品牌供應鏈的一環都可能要遵循RBA責任商業聯盟的指標"},{"start":301.67,"end":318.003,"text":"它不是一份指標而已它是一種企業信任跟永續合作的憑證對國際品牌而言供應商如果沒有辦法通過RBA的集合會被排除在供應鏈之外所以不只是工廠連協力廠商承攬商人力重建甚至外籍義工的來源地母國都必須遵循相關的準則所以不是本國而已還有"},{"start":329.211,"end":350.693,"text":"外籍移工來源國的母國的制度實務上RBA要求最核心移工不得承擔就業相關費用 零付費應有自由選擇工作的權利不得強迫按限制行動這個我們隨時 今天行政院應該沒有檢討這個"},{"start":352.506,"end":375.501,"text":"根本說明其實去年我其實就已經跟RBA的副總裁包括總裁我現在跟你說甚至我們接下來會跟這些國際供應鏈就是國際供應鏈管理的這些商業的集合機制我們也會來跟他們有些合作我現在跟你講不要講跟他們合作他們的最重視的準則標準應有自由選擇工作的權利"},{"start":376.562,"end":392.817,"text":"那我們其實也踩到紅線不是只有不當的仲介費不是扣押你的證件而已自由選擇工作的權利這真的是非常大的一個挑戰老實說那我其實在這裡要跟大家還有跟部長你知道大龍企業"},{"start":394.56,"end":418.956,"text":"企業界的標竿他是為全球電燒比刀的產品最大的可能是供應商可能是OEM廠商啦那主要的客戶就是涵蓋了歐美他是代工的2022年起大龍企業就啟動了零付費政策所以外籍移工來台的時候包括來源母國的仲介費"},{"start":419.756,"end":437.644,"text":"包括本地在台灣合法可以收取的台灣業者的仲介費全部都是他們公司負責到目前2025年為止他的母國仲介費支出了1500萬在台灣的仲介服務費每個月大概支出90到100萬每個月"},{"start":440.68,"end":466.69,"text":"那絕大多數引進外勞的企業我想他們都不會幫移工付這兩筆費用了那大龍為什麼要這麼做他其實他是有說他們說他們沒有被規範但他們發現ESG和DEI都是未來趨勢作為供應鏈所以他們希望自律的符合規範那所以在他們公司的公司治理的這個以人為本的公司的核心那"},{"start":467.23,"end":471.494,"text":"那其實國際上老實說,這個已經刻不容緩,我已經跟你講了,剛才是不是三年,是兩年不到,一年多了然後在巨大發生戰擴令以後,我們大家都發現,事情很大條的啊所有衛生業都知道事情很大條的啊,那你們也制定了相關指引工企業參考"},{"start":486.388,"end":502.515,"text":"但是對國際要來打擊這個勞動這個強迫勞動的壓力我們只有採取你的指引好自願企業自願採行零付費政策我想這個是太難了吧這應該是太難了吧我們不會只有指引"},{"start":503.51,"end":531.903,"text":"不會只有指引 指引是第一步所以並不是三年後我們才來制定法規而是在這段時間裡面從指引 從輔導 從仲介評鑑從相關的某些制度的法規我們都要開始修正我這樣子問你你現在就是一工零付費那請問只要有仲介業生存的一天只要存在著仲介的一天仲介就是依靠"},{"start":533.288,"end":541.772,"text":"靠獲利為目標啊 不然他做仲介是要做什麼 做義母的 做義母的 做好心腸的 做功德的嗎不是 只要仲介業在了一天 就必須要有仲介費不管合法的或是非法的 合法的那一點點能夠讓他們支撐他們的想要嗎 想要嗎老實說啦 他說零付費 那換成誰付費"},{"start":561.271,"end":586.007,"text":"可能叫做雇主付費那請問你使用移工的百分之九十都是中小企業主耶有幾個中小企業主有能力像大龍企業這樣子自己付費所以跟國人說明我們也是考慮了台灣有很多的企業是中小企業所以剛剛在講到幾個事情你不要講太多我已經聽你一整個早上了你都沒有面對這個問題來"},{"start":588.008,"end":614.982,"text":"當然雇主現在大型的10%的上市櫃公司的這個雇主或是大型企業的雇主他去負擔這個買工費很合理我們也覺得應該是要但是呢他當然會比較有溢價的空間嘛我一次買單這麼多所以你招募合法的成本不合法的不透明的無法合理化的會用也比較可能會被壓縮"},{"start":617.25,"end":637.369,"text":"比較有溢價權啦但合法之應的他作為付費者當然他也可以比較回到透明較合理較接近市場效率的結構所以那中小企業主他的溢價能力就降低了所以沒有像大的企業這麼高對啊那你要怎麼解決你說你要透過仲介評鑑"},{"start":642.164,"end":660.045,"text":"所以我們為什麼在這個階段要把職聘的這個做法在制度上面把它給健全跟強化你答對了 但你今天的報告裡面都避重就輕啦你講我國內職聘 我告訴你 你的國內職聘就是一個大問題你的國內職聘現在比例是多高"},{"start":661.281,"end":668.306,"text":"現在不高2.7%你說中小企業的僱主能夠全部買單所有外勞的買工費一個人6000美元嗎三年就要買一次有辦法嗎沒有那我們要仰賴什麼仰賴的是國對國職聘啦"},{"start":683.424,"end":701.42,"text":"人家韓國做得到 日本做得到 而你台灣國對國的職聘你要幫中小企業主 還要買單這個仲介費那是不可能的 只有透過國對國職聘 才有辦法幫中小企業主"},{"start":702.401,"end":718.914,"text":"去省掉這一筆費用台灣的中小企業主以前啊都cost down他怎麼cost down就靠了人力成本在下調他的cost down的嘛那你現在說不能cost down買公費再叫中小企業主買單他買不起"},{"start":720.629,"end":734.069,"text":"全部包括國內合法的買工費他都買不起大龍每個月要付90萬上百萬的每個月的買工費他都要幫他付台灣有幾個中小企業族有辦法沒有"},{"start":736.212,"end":752.077,"text":"所以現在 你不是在這裡說 我給仲介評鑑仲介評鑑好的仲介 收的仲介費是合理的再怎麼合理 叫雇主都很沉重那怎麼解決 正本清源的解決應該是國對國執聘還有國內達到50% 60% 70%的國內的執聘"},{"start":761.263,"end":778.828,"text":"而你在這裡報告這麼多年了你們從來不設定目標你來告訴我你國對國之並設定目標五千人 一千人連五千人你都沒有設定全台灣八十萬的幾萬的外籍移工台灣製造業我剛剛講RBA喔它不是半導體產業半導體產業製造業的移工"},{"start":790.427,"end":798.374,"text":"用了多少人剛剛講了48萬人其中電子零組件大概8萬人電腦電子產品業大概2萬人所以高科技的半導體的電子零組件的電子電腦電子產品的大概加起來10萬的移工可是除此之外除此之外大概都中小企業所以這一些中小企業幾十萬的移工他們要怎麼樣去付這些錢"},{"start":819.031,"end":844.15,"text":"所以他們要怎麼樣去使用你們的國內職聘的體系我現在先講一下你們112年公布移工管理還有運用調查報告在受訪的製造業和營建業的僱主當中已經有72.4%通通都知道政府有職聘服務的措施"},{"start":846.263,"end":861.537,"text":"這些我都知道 不是不知道啦但是真正透過職聘中心去聘僱移工的僱主只有 我剛剛講的2.7%大家都知道政府這樣好不好 為什麼需要只有2.7%"},{"start":864.144,"end":870.186,"text":"那你問他說你為什麼沒有去使用你的原因是什麼他這裡有統計啊你們自己做的調查第一個61.8%的雇主說沒有後續代辦和管理服務第二個沒有時間親自管理也60%了第三個申辦文件太複雜佔了42.4%"},{"start":890.173,"end":897.007,"text":"這個代表什麼 你們的制度存在但是遠遠不是市場上主要招募的方式"},{"start":897.836,"end":920.263,"text":"然後你說我們要增加職聘 國內要多設多少點人家都知道你再設多少點也沒有用你說菲律賓海外有一個點你一方面把職聘當成落實零付費原則的一個解方但一方面對他的低使用率視而不見"},{"start":921.303,"end":937.33,"text":"而解決這個低使用率的原因其實我再講難聽一點 我也可以說他從以前到現在就是故意給他設計的可敬性很難用 可敬性太太低 很低"},{"start":939.313,"end":962.941,"text":"國內的職聘的可敬性太低 國外的職聘趨於尾移然後呢 反正到最後 就是丟給雇主自己去處理可是保定 在今天這種高度專業分工的社會裡面移工招募 文件作業 跨國媒合 入境安排到後續管理本來就有相當高的行政和實務門檻"},{"start":965.789,"end":990.389,"text":"你的可敬性又這麼的差多數的僱主還是會選擇由仲介辦理這不是懶惰和習慣這個是分工和效率的選擇分工和效率的現實問題所以政府你在這裡不是說抽象說我鼓勵職聘啊而是你要正視在仲介制度仍然是主流的情況下"},{"start":991.65,"end":1020.176,"text":"你要去切斷移工因招募費用而落入債務束縛甚至是抵債勞動的風險其實是很難的然後呢你要雇主全部買單中小企業90%的外籍移工都中小企業主在聘雇的對他們來講真的很沉重而你的國對國職聘沒有設定目標解決中小企業雇主的沉重的買工費的方法正本清源解決之道"},{"start":1021.556,"end":1048.901,"text":"就是國對國職聘 不管是職內的續聘 或是從外國的引入所以呢 保證 我們說台北的啦只要仲介存在的一天 他就是要賺錢中小企業啦 是使用 僱主啦 使用仲介這個管道他就是必須換成他買單而到時候 你說兩年 三年 到了 時間到了 非買單不可"},{"start":1050.783,"end":1074.766,"text":"這些中小企業主馬上就跳起來而你現在應該做的國對國職聘 你告訴我你的目標值要設定多少我可以跟委員說明在職聘的強化上面其實有幾件事情是必須的你通通都不用告訴我 我只要看到你兩個數字第一 你國對國職聘你未來一年設定多少人數 多少目標比例"},{"start":1075.507,"end":1090.805,"text":"然後國內的續聘的職聘服務你要設定多高的比例來改進你的2.7%然後三年對美國承諾了三年歐盟的一年半時間所剩不多你在這種狀況裡面要怎麼面對和因應"},{"start":1095.663,"end":1113.798,"text":"跟委員說明其實職聘最重要的關鍵其實就是必須要簡化我們現在聘僱的程序跟流程當然所以這部分其實現在是我們在強化職聘工作裡面的重中之重就是在這個部分所以這裡面要我們目前在檢討的工項非常多"},{"start":1114.178,"end":1137.435,"text":"沒關係啦 你這個通通都是 但我是要告訴你們首先你必須在這裡告訴我 你們自我期許的目標人數和職聘的比例 你的企圖心要把它提高到多少%這才是真正的講真話啦 其他喔 其他都是漫長過程啦 反不及急啦"},{"start":1138.203,"end":1165.241,"text":"跟文說明第一個所以你在這裡講得很好聽結果最後都是雇主承擔誰搞不好啊你的政策上硬是逼雇主吞下去啊中小企業主吞下去所以我們必須要強化職聘所以必須把這些政策工具要先把它檢討到位啊所以我在這裡作為一個立委要問責的就是國家和政府的責任就是國對國職聘和國內續聘的職聘比例要大幅提高"},{"start":1166.181,"end":1173.092,"text":"而在這裡我要聽到你回答我的是你自己自我設定的目標值和比例是多少你告訴我一個菲律賓海外職聘中心一年是多少人 一年是多少人"},{"start":1180.168,"end":1196.136,"text":"根文說明第一個這裡面當然也牽涉到好你告訴我你們這麼多年的菲律賓海外執聘中心了來這是今年才去不是沒關係不管你這一這幾個月這一年來聘了多少執聘了多少人進來根文說明第一個"},{"start":1197.694,"end":1218.859,"text":"在國對國的執聘裡面我們現在非常積極的跟四個來源國在討論MOU所以這也是為什麼昨天其實不要再講MOU我就是問你你自我設定多少目標而且不要忘了我們當然希望提到所有的外勞外籍移工輸出母國是全世界在搶工不是只有台灣而你又開放了外籍幫傭啊你忘了嗎"},{"start":1226.351,"end":1230.745,"text":"所以你不擴大這個需求外國也在搶工"},{"start":1232.529,"end":1240.116,"text":"然後這個是一個機會但是你可以去解決國對國職聘的問題你就告訴我你覺得2026年沒有辦法2026年二點多的職聘你的目標要設定多少我們當然希望能夠提高提高大家也要說這20年來大家保證都說希望提高"},{"start":1256.77,"end":1262.339,"text":"可是你到底要提高多少20年講了20年到現在國內殖民還是2.7%叫做提高嗎多少我現在是代替台灣的中小企業主"},{"start":1271.809,"end":1277.513,"text":"我們幫了移工絕對不能叫最弱勢的移工付這個買工費那老闆要付可是大老闆沒問題中小企業主他們就有問題了那我們可以幫他政府可以幫他們的就是國對國之拼也應該要幫他們的而且人家韓國政府就是這樣子做的"},{"start":1298.553,"end":1303.036,"text":"外國政府百分之百的在國對國執聘百分之百台灣我沒有叫你百分之百因為我們已經開放仲介了嘛人家做生意的就在那裡要賺錢的人就在那裡了我是叫你你總是要一步一步往前推進這個國家要一步一步的把責任扛回來啊"},{"start":1324.676,"end":1341.507,"text":"你要設定一個目標值而不是在這裡告訴我們說我的目標是提高廢話提高兩個字叫提高太容易了叫提高這兩個字太容易說出口可是卻沒有辦法看到它兌現而且你是洪森漢你不是其他人對啦好啦就這樣子我知道你也講不出口啦這才是真正的問題"},{"start":1355.922,"end":1378.732,"text":"我們其實最困難的工作我還是要講在這裡面最困難的工作是在於我們要把流程給改善跟簡化那你流程什麼時候要花多久的時間改善完畢跟文說明人家韓國早就都是透過這個程序所以我們當然現在韓國的流士有他山之石可以工作啦"},{"start":1379.588,"end":1401.001,"text":"所以委員我們當然是跟韓國我們也在看韓國的制度跟日本的制度他們目前相關的做法我們哪些部分可以納入那我直接就是問你你需要多久的時間改善這個流程讓他的肯定性很高讓一般人直接一般雇主就可以使用啊委員會有一些流程會比較快可以做"},{"start":1401.621,"end":1404.126,"text":"這個你都沒有辦法清楚的告訴我們連這個你都不敢說我們剛才其實已經有講了三個月內我們會把我們最余流程的檢討的說明提交到委員會來"},{"start":1413.26,"end":1435.634,"text":"提到委員會來 你對自己都沒有信心說你什麼時候會架構起一套讓僱主可進性非常高 然後讓移工的可進性也很高因為他是要媒合 他要媒合雙方 移工也要進來 僱主也要進來然後要移工的可進性很高 僱主使用的可進性也很高"},{"start":1436.494,"end":1457.457,"text":"人家韓國就是這麼做嘛我也質詢過你很多次了人家他山之石在那裡可以工作然後問你說 你就說最困難的就是其實要把這個媒合的這個系統做好那我問你什麼時候又做好 你也不知道不敢保證然後我說你到底要多高的比喻國度我們會在今年把這件事情"},{"start":1458.038,"end":1486.098,"text":"那很好那國對國的比例這個做好了那我明年就可以問你國對國的比例你的目標是什麼對我們會在今年來把這相關的拼顧的流程的部分給改善現在正在如何如何在檢討就是這個部分好我雖然覺得時間拖很久但我覺得要做了總比不做好了老實說好謝謝好謝謝林書文委員的發言也謝謝部長的答詢現在休息"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}