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理解相關的案子我們都一定考量消防處這邊"},{"start":162.45,"end":173.937,"text":"有沒有消費者跟你們投訴?我們目前看申訴系統大概是四件有嘛,那請妥善的處理啦針對這部分,因為我覺得這問題目前坊間感覺很關注但是實際的問題也許並沒有那麼嚴重謝謝你們,我接下來想請一下經濟部公部長還有中郵的方董事長"},{"start":191.448,"end":216.738,"text":"政委好現在部長因為剛剛請他們三個相關的一個單位來說就表述現在這問題大概有多嚴重其實實際上進入公平會跟我們法務相關單位的可能還沒那麼嚴重可是消費者的感覺是不一樣的那我們今天看到經濟部這邊的一個報告的時候也很清楚提到我們在總供應量這邊是沒有問題的對不對總供應量這邊沒有問題"},{"start":220.58,"end":249.018,"text":"然後針對那個就是提到總量夠然後可以調度也有替代來源基本上這些東西大概都沒有問題但也特別提到說我們讓那個世青這邊先增產之後然後就是產發署這邊也跟我們相關的這20家塑膠工廠都已經有做一個聯繫我覺得很好啦我們用最快的速度去產生這個問題那為什麼我要特別提到說總量上感覺是夠的經濟部這邊"},{"start":249.938,"end":275.391,"text":"總量管購消費者卻覺得確實有一些物價格上的波動有些地方講三成有些地方講到五成這可能就是兩個很重要的問題因為從整個原料到消費者手上它有很多一個整個產業鏈的問題當中可能還會有很多預期心理的問題消費者的預期心理或者中韓商的預期心理都不一樣都會產生這相關的部分"},{"start":275.851,"end":290.624,"text":"所以我覺得經濟部在做這步過程當中的時候可能也需要有更多的一個說明跟溝通讓消費者真的不要擔心是是是所以我們會直接跟商圈市場端因為是"},{"start":291.445,"end":311.204,"text":"家用的消費者他現在是比較不缺啦那現在就是說商圈的還有市場端的因為他們要客戶使用他們可能要比較多一點那我們就直接跟他們溝通理解好不好因為這過程當中我發現部長也特別提到說我們增產之後就是平均每一個人一天可以用"},{"start":312.084,"end":333.423,"text":"10個塑膠袋比方說講10個塑膠袋我聽到這個數字的時候在想說今天還好環境部彭部長沒有來不然他聽了可能就要哭了你知道嗎我在想說這件事情塑膠袋之亂這件事情的時候我覺得某一個部分對整個經濟部所掌管的產業當中的時候對整個循環經濟的部分我覺得也許是值得我們去"},{"start":333.823,"end":352.034,"text":"多做琢磨的一個部分我們會跟環境部還有那個商圈夜市來討論一個怎麼樣檢縮的一個機制或者是獎勵我覺得這個部分因為我覺得剛好就是坦白說台灣消費者之前對這部分可能沒有特別的"},{"start":353.034,"end":377.375,"text":"關注 因為這件事情讓大家覺得減碩的問題然後怎麼樣子能夠重複使用的一個問題或者是整個循環經濟產業鏈把它給落實下來我覺得都是一件很好的事情那我們也希望針對這事情當中的時候我們經濟部在思考的不只是說讓四清增產這樣子的一個事情來解決而是對於整個台灣的一個"},{"start":379.636,"end":405.878,"text":"更適切的一個適合台灣整個社會環境的一個產業也能夠有一些調整的一個動作在這裡頭完全贊成那這部分再請我們基部這邊再多做一個努力那我接下來我想請教一個部分就是因為在這個四清增產的過程當中我想請教一下部長你知不知道我們到2024年我們整個的以西的產能產"},{"start":407.879,"end":424.29,"text":"能大概總共有多少然後我們的實際產量有多少現在現在來講的話台塑大概是9萬噸然後現在中油的部分原來是6萬噸然後增加了一點點整體的產能我想乙烯的整體產能"},{"start":425.251,"end":436.279,"text":"就是十幾萬噸我這邊得到的數字就是針對石化工業同業工會他們所提供的數字這邊我們看到2024年的狀態我們產能跟實際的一個產量有35%的落差"},{"start":443.064,"end":456.764,"text":"那為什麼我會提到這個狀態就是說以目前台灣這相關的一個產能來說的時候其實是有空間去提高的那我在這邊會特別提到一個針對一個狀態就是說因為這次是讓那個世青這邊的時候先提"},{"start":459.147,"end":481.539,"text":"提高產量出來那我想請教針對新四清這個計畫因為要投入一千多億一千多億的一個狀態2024年行政院通過那我想關切一下這個案子目前情況怎麼樣子因為有很多相關的環保團體就是我剛才問到說我們碰到說外資亂的時候是不是能夠讓台灣的循環經濟做得更好"},{"start":482.259,"end":496.5,"text":"所以對於新四清這樣子的一個計畫的時候我們目前進行到哪裡然後是不是會如期往下推還是有可能修正的可能性我們就先請中央董事長OK好 請董事長回應"},{"start":498.282,"end":521.093,"text":"謝謝委員 委員好新石清這個案子就是剛剛委員所提到行政院在110年同意這個計畫往前推動但是它有一個前提就是要跟當地高雄市政府取得在檢探上的一個共識這部分我們跟高雄市政府溝通我們已經達成初步的共識"},{"start":522.173,"end":550.423,"text":"但是這個檢探的方式跟結果還是要經過設計完了以後經過環評的審查通過以後才會確立所以因此我們在這個案子目前推動就是在進行基本設計的過程中以及在環境調查的過程中所以跟高雄市政府這邊已經達成共識了嗎還是還在溝通過程當中達成共識但是那個結果必須要經過基本設計完了以後才能確立"},{"start":551.977,"end":554.246,"text":"因為我想說因為現在我們本身的"},{"start":555.555,"end":555.595,"text":"好 謝謝好"},{"start":585.591,"end":586.059,"text":"谢谢 再见"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:49:03.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:49:11.662000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我想先請公平會代理主委陳志民、法務部專門委員李貞慧還有消保處處長鍾瑞蘭，謝謝。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-09T10:49:11.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:49:11.922000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:49:21.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:49:51.530000+08:00","text":"謝謝主委，今天主席特別安排與塑膠袋之亂有關的相關問題，因為範圍很廣，也牽扯到了農業部這邊的肥料問題，經濟部這邊包括塑膠袋、瀝青，也包括衛福部相關醫材的問題，到目前為止，公平會有沒有查到任何相關的不法事情，有沒有？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-09T10:49:52.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:49:56.395000+08:00","text":"公平會目前的作為大概就是配合法務部的聯合稽查，還有本身的立案調查。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-09T10:49:57.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:50:03.542000+08:00","text":"針對塑膠袋的部分，我們是已經立案調查，目前包含聯合稽查，總共查了17個案子。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-09T10:50:04.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:50:14.425000+08:00","text":"目前的發現就是，當然現在供給的不確定性、價格有稍微上漲，廠商也會因應去做一些調配，譬如說契約……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:50:14.425000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:50:15.425000+08:00","text":"只針對塑膠袋的部分嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:50:15.425000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:50:16.425000+08:00","text":"其他對於肥料、醫材的部分都還沒有嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-09T10:50:16.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:50:21.347000+08:00","text":"瀝青的部分，我們現在進行初步的了解，我們有跟公會來了解他們目前的情況。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳代理主任委員志民","start":"2026-04-09T10:50:22.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:50:24.888000+08:00","text":"總的來說，還沒有公平法裡面所謂的聯合拒絕出貨。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:50:26.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:50:26.629000+08:00","text":"OK，好，謝謝主委。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:50:27.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:50:34.559000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下法務部專門委員，目前為止，這幾個領域有沒有相關的案子已經產生了？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"李專門委員貞慧","start":"2026-04-09T10:50:36.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:50:41.948000+08:00","text":"目前聯合稽查的部分，主要是針對塑料的原物料來做稽查。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:50:42.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:50:44.992000+08:00","text":"只針對塑料的部分，有沒有已經產生的案子？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"李專門委員貞慧","start":"2026-04-09T10:50:46.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:50:48.832000+08:00","text":"目前聯合稽查的部分是還沒有，但是可能各地……","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:50:49.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:50:50.732000+08:00","text":"媒體說有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:50:51.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:51:23.105000+08:00","text":"媒體說至少已經有兩件跟刑事相關案件有關，因為還在審理過程當中，我們也是特別關注，我們都希望事情很快能夠落幕，其實現在美伊也開始準備要進入和談階段，到底後續會怎麼樣，我們也持續關注，希望我們相關單位能夠把這部分落實下來，因為媒體說已經有刑事案件，我們就請你們特別來關注，因為還在審理過程當中，好不好？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"李專門委員貞慧","start":"2026-04-09T10:51:23.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:51:26.987000+08:00","text":"那兩件因為是檢舉、告發，不是聯合稽查的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:51:27.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:51:30.128000+08:00","text":"理解、理解，相關的案子我們都一併考量。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:51:30.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:51:35.311000+08:00","text":"消保處這邊有沒有消費者跟你們投訴？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鍾處長瑞蘭","start":"2026-04-09T10:51:35.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:51:39.174000+08:00","text":"我們目前看申訴系統大概是4件。有嘛？對，4件。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:51:39.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:51:39.974000+08:00","text":"OK，請妥善處理。好，是。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:51:40.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:51:43.156000+08:00","text":"針對這部分，因為我覺得這個問題目前坊間感覺很關注，可是實際的問題也許並沒有那麼嚴重，謝謝你們。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:51:43.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:51:44.937000+08:00","text":"接下來想請一下經濟部龔部長，還有中油的方董事長。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-09T10:52:02.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:52:02.748000+08:00","text":"鄭委員好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:52:03.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:52:04.249000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:52:04.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:52:20.676000+08:00","text":"因為剛剛請他們3個相關的單位，就表示現在這個問題大概有多嚴重，實際上進入公平會跟法務相關單位的可能還沒那麼嚴重，可是消費者的感覺是不一樣的。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:52:21.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:52:27.498000+08:00","text":"我們今天看到經濟部的報告也很清楚提到，我們在總供應量是沒有問題的，對不對？對。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:52:27.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:52:38.404000+08:00","text":"總供應量沒有問題，報告提到總量夠，可以調度，也有替代來源。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:52:38.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:52:55.815000+08:00","text":"基本上，這些東西大概都沒有問題，但也特別提到我們讓四輕先增產之後，產發署也跟相關的20家塑膠工廠都已經有做聯繫，我覺得很好，我們用最快的速度去解決這個問題。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:52:56.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:52:59.497000+08:00","text":"為什麼我要特別提到總量上感覺是夠的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:52:59.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:53:35.659000+08:00","text":"經濟部這邊的總量夠，消費者卻覺得確實有一些價格上的波動，有些地方講到3成、有些地方講到5成，這可能就是兩個很重要問題，因為從整個原料到消費者手上，有很多是整個產業鏈的問題，當中可能還會有很多預期心理的問題，消費者的預期心理或者中盤商的預期心理都不一樣，都會產生相關的連動，所以我覺得經濟部在這個過程當中可能也需要有更多的說明跟溝通，讓消費者真的不要擔心。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-09T10:53:36.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:53:36.860000+08:00","text":"是、是、是！","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-09T10:53:37.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:53:55.017000+08:00","text":"我們會直接跟商圈、市場端溝通，家用的消費者現在是比較不缺，現在就是商圈及市場端的，因為他們的客戶要使用，可能他們要比較多一點，我們就直接跟他們溝通。理解。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:53:56.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:54:12.613000+08:00","text":"在這個過程當中，我發現部長有特別提到我們增產之後，平均每一個人一天可以用10個塑膠袋，你那時候講10個塑膠袋，我聽到這個數字時，還好今天環境部彭部長沒有來，不然他聽了可能就要哭了，你知道嗎？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:54:12.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:54:26.524000+08:00","text":"我在想塑膠袋之亂的這件事情，某一個部分對整個經濟部所掌管產業的循環經濟，我覺得也許是值得我們多做著墨的部分。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-09T10:54:27.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:54:36.310000+08:00","text":"我們會跟環境部還有商圈、夜市來討論減塑的機制或者是獎勵。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:54:39.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:54:57.305000+08:00","text":"坦白說，臺灣消費者之前對這部分可能沒有特別的關注，因為這件事情讓大家關注到減塑問題及怎麼樣能夠重複使用的問題，或者是整個循環經濟產業鏈把它給落實下來，我覺得都是一件很好的事情。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:54:57.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:55:19.203000+08:00","text":"我們也希望針對這件事情，經濟部思考的不只是讓四輕增產來解決問題，而是對於適合臺灣社會環境的產業也能夠有一些調整的動作在這裡頭，好不好？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-09T10:55:19.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:55:19.804000+08:00","text":"是、是，完全贊成委員的想法。","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:55:21.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:55:23.847000+08:00","text":"這部分請經濟部再多做努力。好。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:55:24.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:55:41.261000+08:00","text":"接下來我想請教部長，在四輕增產的過程當中，你知不知道到2024年整個乙烯的產能大概總共有多少？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:55:43.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:55:43.803000+08:00","text":"實際產量有多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-09T10:55:45.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:55:52.929000+08:00","text":"以現在來講，台塑大概是9萬噸，中油的部分原來是6萬噸，然後增加了……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:55:53.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:55:55.270000+08:00","text":"我講的是乙烯的整體產能。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-09T10:55:56.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:55:57.872000+08:00","text":"就是十幾萬噸吧！OK。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:55:57.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:56:14.905000+08:00","text":"依我這邊得到的數字，就是石化工業同業公會所提供的數字，我們看到2024年的狀態，我們的產能跟實際產量有35%的落差，為什麼我會提到這個狀態？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:56:15.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:56:44.074000+08:00","text":"以目前臺灣相關的產能來說，其實是有空間去提高的，我在這邊會特別針對一個狀態，因為這次是讓四輕先提高產量，我想請教針對新四輕計畫，因為要投入一千多億，2024年行政院通過，我想關切一下這個案子目前情況是怎麼樣？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:56:44.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:56:52.519000+08:00","text":"因為有很多相關的環保團體，我剛才問到我們碰到塑膠袋之亂時，是不是能夠讓臺灣的循環經濟做得更好？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:56:53.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:56:58.727000+08:00","text":"對於新四輕計畫，我們目前進行到哪裡？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:56:59.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:57:02.974000+08:00","text":"是不是會如期往下推，還是有修正的可能性，可不可以請部長？","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-09T10:57:03.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:57:06.559000+08:00","text":"我們是不是先請中油董事長？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:57:06.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:57:07.500000+08:00","text":"OK，好，請董事長回應。","quality":1},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-09T10:57:09.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:57:09.903000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-09T10:57:11.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:57:50.739000+08:00","text":"關於新四輕這個案子，剛剛委員所提到行政院在110年同意這個計畫往前推動，但是有一個前提，就是要跟當地的高雄市政府取得在減碳上的共識，這部分我們跟高雄市政府溝通，目前已經達成初步共識，但是減碳的方式跟結果還是要等設計完了以後，經過環評審查通過以後才會確立，因此，這個案子目前推動就是在進行基本設計以及在環境調查的過程中。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:57:51.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:57:53.780000+08:00","text":"所以跟高雄市政府已經達成共識了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:57:53.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:57:55.621000+08:00","text":"還是還在溝通過程當中？","quality":1},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-09T10:57:56.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-09T10:58:01.403000+08:00","text":"達成共識，但是那個結果必須要經過基本設計完了以後才能確立。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2026-04-09T10:58:01.903000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:58:32.188714+08:00","text":"現在我們本身相關的產能是夠的，新四輕要投入1,062億這麼大的金額，而且可能還會再追加，在這種情況之下，對於整個產業的策略、經濟效益及一些環保相關的問題，我們希望中油跟經濟部能夠有更完善的狀態，跟相關團體應該要做更好的溝通，好不好？好。謝謝。","quality":0.094},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-09T10:58:32.488714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:58:33.917286+08:00","text":"謝謝鄭正鈐。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-09T10:58:34.217286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:58:38.788714+08:00","text":"待會呂玉玲委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-09T10:58:39.088714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-09T10:58:40.803000+08:00","text":"請呂玉玲委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}