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11:21:24","會議時間":"2026-04-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查「總統咨，為最高檢察署檢察總長邢泰釗任期於115年5月7日屆滿，茲依法院組織法第66條第2項規定，提名徐錫祥為最高檢察署檢察總長，咨請同意案」案。\n【本案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.5372187500000001,"end":0.6215937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.6215937500000001,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.17846875,"end":1.4653437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.66784375,"end":3.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.33846875,"end":4.705343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.03846875,"end":6.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.69659375,"end":20.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.472843750000001,"end":8.012843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.239718750000002,"end":14.914718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.15846875,"end":24.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.17909375,"end":24.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.95534375,"end":29.528468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.942218750000002,"end":28.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.528468750000002,"end":34.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.06846875,"end":30.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.88659375,"end":36.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.94096875,"end":51.955343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.09034375,"end":54.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.165968750000005,"end":57.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.06846875,"end":58.570343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.924718750000004,"end":73.92659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.19221875000001,"end":75.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.36096875,"end":76.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.31846875000001,"end":81.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.68096875,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.91284375000001,"end":85.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.63784375,"end":106.78221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.33909375,"end":113.56596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.52471875,"end":107.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.15659375000001,"end":116.95784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.65409375,"end":117.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.04221875,"end":119.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.16409375,"end":122.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.08346875000001,"end":133.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.25471875,"end":138.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.61284375,"end":144.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.45596875,"end":146.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.59909375,"end":165.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.31721875000002,"end":195.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.37596875,"end":212.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.97721875000002,"end":209.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.96409375000002,"end":215.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.60096875000002,"end":214.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.17034375,"end":215.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.59221875,"end":215.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.65971875000002,"end":215.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.67659375000002,"end":215.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.74409375000002,"end":215.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.79471875000002,"end":221.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.86221875,"end":218.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.60409375,"end":220.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.85721875000002,"end":225.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.43909375,"end":228.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.12596875000003,"end":250.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.58409375000002,"end":240.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.16471875000002,"end":266.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.44909375000003,"end":275.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.97096875,"end":281.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.72534375000004,"end":292.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.90096875,"end":297.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.50346875,"end":316.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.18409375000005,"end":320.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.41971875,"end":326.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.54971875,"end":327.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.26221875000005,"end":371.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.71346875,"end":331.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.60159375,"end":376.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.24221875,"end":376.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.29284375000003,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好了解我覺得25年人生能有幾個25年是 沒錯所以25年真的是算是很繼承的工作做很久是 真的是一個非常這個讓人家肯定而且稱獻的履歷因為我覺得檢察官其實在我們的印象當中都是一個打擊罪惡的一個先鋒那我相信您的血液當中應該也是充滿爭議感"},{"start":52.479,"end":65.131,"text":"是 我這個就秉持不敢好 那我現在想請教你一件事就是說你在檢察界已經有25年了嘛那 我不知道有沒有逃離滿天下但是我在想 經過這25年的這個跟人家應對 互動應該人脈非常的豐沛啦那我想請問你有沒有聽過馬玉文檢察官"},{"start":75.876,"end":101.189,"text":"馬玉元檢察官因為我服務的機關在中北部我不曉得馬玉元檢察官非常的有名他被人家簡稱叫做馬檢那為什麼他會那麼有名呢因為他說他經營檢調已經七年了所以他完全有獲取到柯文哲的秘密的檔案就是Excel檔裡頭有1500那馬檢真的是非常的神通廣大那不知道你這位真正的檢察官怎麼來看這個馬檢應該他算是假的檢察官"},{"start":105.271,"end":110.259,"text":"能夠取得這樣的資料那一定前提一定是已經偵查亂公開公開了才會有這樣的讓他掌握到這些資料嗎"},{"start":114.318,"end":136.761,"text":"他個人講什麼話我沒有辦法評論但是我還是會強調我自己當檢察官25年我對於在偵查中洩露偵查的內容是非常非常的忌諱因為他會嚴重的影響到我偵查作為甚至於證據會滅失 當事人會串證那一方面也會侵害到當事人的訴訟"},{"start":138.122,"end":165.084,"text":"我已經掌握到了您對這個偵查大公開不公開的原則是信奉的所以我們一定會可是現在就是柯文哲主席的案件從去年前年就讓我們看到一個偵查大公開偵查亂公開偵查已經讓我們覺得說怎麼會看到這麼荒腔走板的一個司法劇情除了有馬玉文檢察官還有靜州刊檢察官啊 信靜明州刊啊你有聽過信靜明州刊這位檢察官嗎"},{"start":166.728,"end":181.551,"text":"沒有好那我就告訴你他就是我們在業界在坊間非常有名的淨檢現在有兩個檢察官非常具有高知名度一個就叫馬檢一個叫淨檢那完全暴露了就是偵查大公開然後偵查大公開檢察官這邊放出風聲給媒體跟媒體形成了一個媒跟檢共生的一個環界那除此之外呢黨檢媒三位議題一直在砲轟大攻擊核彈式的攻擊在野黨的委員您覺得這樣合適嗎"},{"start":195.433,"end":223.581,"text":"報告委員 剛才委員特別提到說檢察官放消息給這個媒體這個部分 我要跟委員報告檢察官非常的辛苦上個禮拜還有一個北檢檢察官還送急診檢察官暗讀勞刑是拋棄身體健康我知道 我有很多檢察官的朋友因為我也是法律出身的法官都是暗讀勞刑然後都是用他們的健康跟壽命在換得司法的正義所以在沒有確確的證據以前實在不一定"},{"start":224.621,"end":247.185,"text":"馬簡新事件他經營7年信心200%可以說檢察官放給他的訊息是真的我想這件事可說公平時間也有限那我只您說您反對那如果有一天您成為檢察總長的時候希望您能夠整頓這個現象才能夠未來的行為呼應你現在的承諾那第二件事情就是那個好像檢察有一些檢察官為了升官發財他現在真的搭上"},{"start":251.326,"end":265.479,"text":"升官發財的直升機了他真的已經搭上升官發財的直升機了那他做了什麼行為以至於別人都搭不到這台升官發財的直升機但他卻搭上去了他到醫院去違法徵訊審慶金"},{"start":268.142,"end":296.46,"text":"那請問你對這個看法如何他說我去視察那根本假視察指明其實就是要去做不當詢問違法偵訊的動作嘛那布小德你對這件事的看法如何報告委員這是具體個案所有的證據的證據證明力證據能力跟證明力到底能不能被接受希望到法庭上去我覺得我們沒有講究證據力證明力因為已經退而求其辭到說"},{"start":297.661,"end":315.879,"text":"真相發見真實的義務發見真實能不能夠澄清這當然也是一個非常重要的議題但是已經沒有辦法去奢求真相只想要知道說當人權被侵害到這種程度的時候我們的最高我們的檢察總長對這件事的看法是什麼"},{"start":316.9,"end":326.848,"text":"包委員喔 這是一個具體的個案案件也還沒有判決我記得新聞報導你好像提到說這並不違法然後人家問你說那他的 他現在就是他是沒有違法 但是我不要評論沒有違法 他都已經假視察假視察知名 然後跑去做違法詢問那沈慶金還出來講說他威脅我咬出柯文哲那你覺得這是一個那當場也沒有錄音那你覺得這是一個正當的"},{"start":345.362,"end":352.227,"text":"這完全是踐踏在押被告的人權這完全是漠視正當法律程序啊我覺得不能夠以說這是個案然後就迴避這麼犀利的提問我的提問就是說像這種不當訊問如果你以後當檢察總長你不能夠說這是個案啊避之唯恐不及啊因為個案就會變通案"},{"start":365.638,"end":392.057,"text":"如果這個風氣敗壞到 個案就會變通案那變通案 那好 如果這是通案呢 你的看法呢事實上這一件後來也有行政調查 也做監督處分了不是 應該是說交給新北來做監督處分處分 處分結果是什麼不當言 那就是不當的發言的部分不是 他們也有做處理的所以就是 已經有處分了可是處分的結果"},{"start":393.636,"end":420.235,"text":"處分的結果檢評會送新北地檢署處理監督處分結果出來了還沒有好那我們希望這件事不要輕輕舉起最後輕輕放下因為我覺得這是司法的形象因為人民對司法的信任感已經其實非常的低了那任何一根駱駝任何一根稻草有可能會壓垮司法爭議的駱駝這樣子這個部分我們還是要尊重新北地檢署依法處理"},{"start":422.636,"end":431.38,"text":"問題是他們如果管管相互呈現出來在人民眼前的都是一些偏袒的報告那你叫人民怎麼信服就像我們柯文哲主席210萬的錢政治獻金就被認為是匯款那其實對這也是透過你們司法之手所確認出來的一個法律見解"},{"start":444.045,"end":469.903,"text":"你不能夠說北檢辦出來的大家沒有質疑的空間因為你們這麼荒腔走板人民又沒有質疑的空間這個不會不會回到之前所謂的白色恐怖白色恐怖我真的沒有看過但是另外一種顏色的恐怖好像是現在正在進行那我現在只想期許你說如果有一天你能夠成為檢察總長對於我今天提出來的問題不當訊問不當訊問還有呢就是"},{"start":474.006,"end":501.504,"text":"什麼叫做視察你自己也回答說過去20年從來沒有一個人到醫院去視察過那當然他到現在還是沒有辦個例子他說他去視察根本不是一個例子那只是藉口所以從以前到現在根本沒有視察過鄰居的那個例子根本可以掛單為什麼可以掛單因為那只是藉口他明明就是想去不正訊問的他明明就是想去把那個看能不能軟化省慶金軟的不行就用微破利藥"},{"start":502.384,"end":519.336,"text":"然後讓他咬出柯文哲這個是個案沒有錯這個是個案沒有錯但是他的判決結果其實已經出來了你現在出來評價其實你也不會影響到司法的公正心因為案件是不可能一審就判決確定他會再繼續上訴到二審還是屬於未判決確定的具體個案"},{"start":523.999,"end":544.374,"text":"好 沒有問題 沒有問題 你如果有一天變成檢察總長你的下面的人如果做了這些事難道你也不處理嗎 視而不見 從而不聞這種遵守法律程序一定會要求各級的檢察長一定要實質的做到我真的讀了法律二十年啦 我也是法律背景的我讀了法律二十年啦 我現在覺得說一些冠冕堂皇的話呢 都只出現在教科書啦"},{"start":549.337,"end":567.31,"text":"無罪推定在教科書有被現實的檢察官現實世界檢察官操作下去就變成有罪推論嚴格證明法則在教科書上有啦被檢察官操作下去就變成不用證明法則啦210萬都可以變成210萬都可以變成匯款啦然後偵查不公開到了現實世界變成偵查亂公開啦所以我覺得您講的一口漂亮的話"},{"start":576.997,"end":587.521,"text":"那這口漂亮的話是不是以後只能夠在教科書上回味追思而已我們的現實世界會有人展現這麼高風亮節的情操給我們看嗎這是我沉痛的發聲現實世界還有這些高風亮節的檢察官能夠幫我們守護無罪推薦原則偵查不公開原則嚴格證明原則嗎"},{"start":602.455,"end":620.972,"text":"我們這樣的檢察官還很多所以你的意思就是一顆老鼠死毀了整鍋粥嘛沒有這樣子的話大家都很努力可是我們百姓看到的就是這樣啊我們百姓看到的就是說司法怎麼可以被操弄成這樣的程度好我們來講所以如果以後你成為一個檢察總長你要怎麼改善這些惡行惡狀的惡檢"},{"start":629.927,"end":649.034,"text":"偵查的過程中 擁有一點點的瑕疵但談不上惡行惡狀我想這樣的形容詞加註在我們檢察官的身上我覺得我們不能接受檢察官暗讀勞刑這麼辛苦 還被評價成這樣當然委員所指教的部分我們一定會要求各級檢察長一定要實質的"},{"start":649.394,"end":667.977,"text":"我也是個案在講那幾個檢察官林俊炎這幾個檢察官我並沒有在講全台灣的檢察官全台灣的檢察官當然大家都是盡忠職守但是真的被那幾顆老鼠屎搞得人家對他們有一些誤解我自己也是法律背景出身的檢察官我非常尊重因為他們是司法爭議最後一道防線"},{"start":669.238,"end":673.242,"text":"那個法官我更是尊重因為他們是司法正義的守門員我也沒有想要誣蔑他們但是這一兩年看起來的劇情就是讓我們覺得檢調系統還有法院系統真的有幾顆老鼠屎 敗壞風氣我講的也是個案好 謝謝邱委員感謝妳我們對台灣民眾黨充分尊重"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}