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請一下陳經的主委 請陳主委"},{"start":13.348,"end":38.725,"text":"委員長主委好有關於淨零碳排的議題我們屢屢在公共工程委員會的質詢上面多次的要求工程會要逐步的落實的執行那尤其是在淨零碳排的這樣一個議題早已經是世界各國的共識而且在經歷進來的這樣的一個國際局勢的動盪不安的狀況之下"},{"start":43.629,"end":58.609,"text":"這樣一個國家的面對這樣的一個局勢相關的碳排以及再生能源韌性的加強再生能源體系的建立更是國家未來重要的一個議題"},{"start":61.133,"end":82.56,"text":"國家也定定2050年進行碳排的這樣一個重要的目標但是我們看到綠色採購有關於相關的金額啊歷年來都不足1%那這個相關的成效不彰啊早已經是社會各界議論的一個主要議題來請主委簡單說明一下為什麼效果這麼不好"},{"start":86.715,"end":105.888,"text":"台灣每年碳排大概兩億六千萬噸或兩億七千萬噸其中能源使用包括發電佔了大概三分之一公共工程大概佔了百分之九那麼碳排這件事情因為能源使用所以必須排那本來就是一件很難處理"},{"start":107.389,"end":132.934,"text":"的工作所以台灣雖然小但是重視這個在全球要減少碳排這樣的一個需求上面進行的規劃所以管理公共工程方面除了我們現在在建置的碳排係數希望在設計階段納入考量之外未來我們再加強兩個部分一個在重大的公共建設的基本設計審議階段"},{"start":135.254,"end":162.388,"text":"工程會會要求設計主辦機關呢將這個碳補桌那麼納入考量或者是公共工程委員會受邀協審重大公共建設在國發會的階段也會提出相同的要求換句話說我們希望重大的公共建設那麼他在設計階段就要把碳補桌減少碳排的設計納入否則的話我們不會通過我想這個源頭來處理"},{"start":165.931,"end":183.849,"text":"針對2050年的淨營碳排 公共工程委員會也有公共工程節能減碳的計畫主要是分成三大部分來做一個實施第一個是收集公共工程各項排放係數這個部分初步已經完成"},{"start":184.429,"end":206.428,"text":"那第二個階段是碳排資料庫也預計要在今年底來完成那這個部分其實是分成三個部分第一個是收集各公共工程的這樣的一個排放係數那這個資料我看2024年5月之後就沒有再更新過了"},{"start":207.108,"end":233.686,"text":"第二個工作的重點是碳足跡的資料庫這是由環境部來主導那環境部主導之後他的資料驗證及導入再移到這個工程會就是我們的要建立試算的一個系統那這個2026年才招標系統什麼時候會建置完成什麼時候會開放使用 主委說明一下"},{"start":235.354,"end":254.358,"text":"我首先說明就是這個係數的統計是逐步的啦現在大概有2000多筆那麼將來系統會提供給主辦機關做設計使用那至於如何開始我想請副主委來說明我們這個排放試算系統預計要到2027年才要上線測試這個遠比荷蘭的落後10年了"},{"start":261.66,"end":274.969,"text":"來 副主委說明一下好 謝謝委員那剛剛委員提到那個碳排氣數的更新我想在大概一年以前我們的碳排氣數大概只有1030幾筆經過這段時間跟這樣收集各部會的資訊然後同時再去查證之後我們現在已經累積到2000多筆"},{"start":282.914,"end":301.327,"text":"那另外這個我們那個碳排的減碳的那個系統其實是要嫁接在我們目前的那個PCCES系統上就是價格估算系統那因為這個系統其實也有一定時間所以我們大概同步會做兩件事情一個就是把現在那個PCCES這個系統把它做一個進版升級版"},{"start":301.967,"end":330.666,"text":"讓他更好用讓他更準確度那同時因為這個PCCS就有相關的這些工項工項之後除了有價格之外我們就會再疊加那個我們所收集來之後驗證的這些碳排的係數那所以因此各單位到時候在起計畫的時候其實他就可以一方面算出他的那個預算的規模合理預算規模另外一個就是他可以知道說他那個碳排係數是多少那這樣來一起來控制預算相關的程序我們都清楚"},{"start":332.067,"end":351.424,"text":"相關的時期的建置我們也都清楚但是這樣的一個效率實在是太低了這個請陳主委必須要加緊的督促另外我們要建置這種排放的試算系統我認為就是應該要參考荷蘭的獨波克系統"},{"start":352.418,"end":378.775,"text":"那他們這樣的一個公共工程在荷蘭他們利用試算系統建立獎勵的制度不只是推動試算的這樣的一個計算的方式出來而且是要有獎勵的機制那荷蘭在2000年的時候開始使用這種突破課的系統2017年他們就導入線上的數位管理了"},{"start":379.892,"end":401.778,"text":"他們強制規定政府採購千萬歐元以上的工程都必須要採用而且試算的結果要納入投標的文件之中那工程排放來做分級的這樣的一個處理更重要他有一個虛擬折價的這樣的一個系統跟方式那"},{"start":403.393,"end":422.533,"text":"荷蘭它有一個部門叫基礎建設與水資源管理部他們2000年運用這個系統2017年開始導入這種排放的管理的數位管理那依照工程他們建立一至五級的這樣一個分級"},{"start":425.109,"end":428.974,"text":"分別可以虛擬折價1至5%就是說這種虛擬折價假設這種工程的業者他們投標金額是1億那"},{"start":436.997,"end":463.871,"text":"如果該業者能夠取得虛擬折價的一級那就可以減少投標金額的1%五級就是5%那有效的讓這種要建立排放減碳的這些業者能夠取得投標的一個優勢那這樣的一個公共工程委員會對於未來資料庫跟試算系統建立之後"},{"start":465.1,"end":483.694,"text":"如何要進行推廣以及運用有沒有初步的規劃來請說明一下目前公共工程委員會辦理金職獎的頒獎這個金職獎在押標金啊履歷保證等等都減少而且投標也會加分金職獎裡面有關於這個ESG的部分"},{"start":486.596,"end":505.054,"text":"是平分的那ESG裡面呢排碳是納入他的項目所以呢減碳這件事情如果具體做的話對他承攬相關工程是有優勢的是目前在進行的好這是一個重要的方向政策的方向那我必須要具體的建議了我們"},{"start":506.638,"end":526.275,"text":"在正式公開進行測試要採取這種逐步的而且是滾動檢討的方式來做實施的一個方向核算系統是本來就有提供給機關在基本設計審查的時候去規劃他的成本預算用現在是嫁接"},{"start":527.275,"end":548.232,"text":"另外就是說我們也要邀請業者來進行測試除了協助收集數據以及掀起輔導業者使用之外也可以同步的來收集業者使用的一個經驗提前來發現系統不良以及不足之處來進行相關的一個改善"},{"start":548.772,"end":576.27,"text":"好的這個我們會逐年那麼陸續跟業者呢就主辦機關互動然後來回饋一些意見來做修正另外最後的一些建議也就是2026年我們要進行相關的這些未來推動的規劃那包含系統的公開試用推廣以輔導到最後強制的這一種採用的期程規劃"},{"start":579.232,"end":605.951,"text":"強制採用的範圍對象金額規模的試行以及全面採用必須要分階段來實施那我們要逐步的來導入這種獎勵或者是剛才主委所說的金字獎或者是來研擬一下虛擬的這種折價或是其他相關的獎勵措施那而且我們要開放資料"},{"start":606.732,"end":606.832,"text":"好 我們要"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:13:04.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:13:06.959000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，請一下陳金德主委。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T09:13:07.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:13:07.920000+08:00","text":"請陳主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:13:14.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:13:15.449000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:13:15.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:13:15.689000+08:00","text":"主委好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:13:15.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:14:07.975000+08:00","text":"有關於淨零碳排的議題，我們在公共工程委員會的質詢上面多次要求工程會要逐步落實執行，尤其淨零碳排這樣一個議題早已是世界各國的共識，而且經歷近來國際局勢動盪不安的狀況之下，國家面對這樣的局勢，相關碳排以及再生能源韌性加強、再生能源體系的建立更是國家未來重要的議題，國家也訂定2050年淨零碳排的重要目標。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:14:07.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:14:23.540000+08:00","text":"但是我們看到綠色採購相關的金額歷年來都不足1%，相關成效不彰早已是社會各界議論的主要議題，請主委簡單說明一下為什麼效果這麼不好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:14:27.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:14:59.371000+08:00","text":"臺灣每年碳排大概2億7,000萬噸，其中能源使用，包括發電，占了大概三分之一，公共工程大概占了9%，關於碳排這件事情，因為能源使用所以必須排，本來就是一件很難處理的工作，所以臺灣雖然小，但還是重視全球要減少碳排的需求並進行規劃。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:15:00.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:15:31.622000+08:00","text":"關於公共工程方面，除了我們現在建置碳排係數、希望在設計階段納入考量之外，未來我們再加強兩個部分：一個在重大公共建設的基本設計審議階段，工程會會要求設計主辦機關將碳捕捉納入考量；或者是當公共工程委員會受邀協審重大公共建設時，在國發會階段也會提出相同的要求。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:15:32.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:15:43.368000+08:00","text":"換句話說，我們希望重大的公共建設在設計階段就要把碳捕捉、減少碳排的設計納入，否則我們不會通過，也就是從源頭來處理。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:15:46.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:16:11.194000+08:00","text":"針對2050年的淨零碳排，公共工程委員會也有公共工程節能減碳的計畫，主要分成三大部分來實施：第一個是收集公共工程各項排放係數，這個部分已經初步完成；第二個階段是碳排資料庫也預計要在今年底完成。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:16:12.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:16:53.805000+08:00","text":"這部分其實分成三個部分：第一個是收集各公共工程的排放係數，這個資料我看2024年5月之後就沒有再更新過了；第二個工作重點是碳足跡資料庫，這是由環境部來主導，環境部主導之後，它的資料驗證及導入再移到工程會，就是你們要建立試算的系統，這個2026年才招標，系統什麼時候會建置完成、什麼時候會開放使用？","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:16:54.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:16:54.666000+08:00","text":"主委說明一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:16:56.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:17:10.717000+08:00","text":"我首先說明，這個係數統計是逐步的，現在大概有兩千多筆，將來系統會提供給主辦機關做設計使用，至於如何開始，我想請副主委來說明。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:17:11.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:17:15.158000+08:00","text":"我們這個排放試算系統預計要到2027年才能上線測試，遠比荷蘭落後10年！","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:17:22.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:17:23.381000+08:00","text":"來，副主委說明一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李副主任委員怡德","start":"2026-04-13T09:17:24.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:17:25.622000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李副主任委員怡德","start":"2026-04-13T09:17:26.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:17:35.969000+08:00","text":"剛剛委員提到碳排係數的更新，1年以前我們的碳排係數大概只有一千零三十幾筆，經過這段時間蒐集各部會的資訊，同時再去查證之後，現在已經累計到兩千多筆。","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"李副主任委員怡德","start":"2026-04-13T09:17:44.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:18:04.608000+08:00","text":"另外，我們這個碳排的減碳系統其實是要嫁接在我們目前的PCCES系統上，也就是價格估算系統，因為這個系統其實也有一定時間，所以我們大概會同步做兩件事情，一個就是把現在的PCCES系統做一個進版、升級版，讓它更好用、讓它更準確。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"李副主任委員怡德","start":"2026-04-13T09:18:05.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:18:29.485000+08:00","text":"同時，因為PCCES就有這些相關的工項，除了有價格之外，我們會再疊加這些收集並驗證之後的碳排係數，因此各單位到時候在擬計畫的時候，一方面它就可以算出合理的預算規模；另外，它可以知道碳排係數是多少，這樣一起來控制預算。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:18:29.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:18:42.576000+08:00","text":"相關的程序我們都清楚，相關的建置時期我們也都清楚，但這樣的效率實在是太低了，這部分請陳主委必須要加緊督促。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:18:42.576000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:18:43.576000+08:00","text":"好，我們來加強。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:18:42.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:19:09.648000+08:00","text":"另外，關於我們要建置這種排放試算系統，我認為應該要參考荷蘭的DuboCalc系統，荷蘭的公共工程利用試算系統建立獎勵的制度，不只是推動這樣的試算方式，而且有獎勵的機制。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:19:10.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:19:42.118000+08:00","text":"荷蘭在2000年開始使用DuboCalc系統，2017年他們就導入線上的數位管理，強制規定政府採購千萬歐元以上的工程都必須要採用，而且試算的結果要納入投標文件之中，工程排放做分級處理；更重要的是，它有一個虛擬折價的系統跟方式。","quality":0.888},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:19:44.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:20:37.327000+08:00","text":"荷蘭有一個部門叫基礎建設與水資源管理部，他們2000年運用這個系統，2017年開始導入排放的數位管理，依照工程排放，他們建立1至5級的分級，分別可以虛擬折價1%至5%，假設工程業者的投標金額是1億，如果該業者能夠取得虛擬折價的1級，就可以減少投標金額的1%，5級就是5%，有效的讓減少排放的業者能夠取得投標的優勢。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:20:39.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:20:48.402000+08:00","text":"公共工程委員會未來建立資料庫跟試算系統之後，要如何進行推廣以及運用？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:20:48.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:20:51.044000+08:00","text":"有沒有初步的規劃？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:20:51.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:20:51.944000+08:00","text":"請說明一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:20:52.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:21:02.712000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，目前公共工程委員會辦理金質獎的頒獎，這個金質獎在押標金、履約保證金等等都有減少，而且投標也會加分。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:21:03.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:21:20.809000+08:00","text":"在金質獎裡面，關於ESG的部分是評分的，在ESG裡面，排碳是納入它的項目，所以如果有具體做減碳這件事情的話，對他承攬相關公共工程是有優勢的，這是目前在進行的。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:21:21.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:21:37.927000+08:00","text":"這是一個重要的政策方向，我必須具體的建議，正式公開進行測試要採取逐步的、而且是滾動檢討的方式作為實施的方向。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:21:38.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:21:47.255000+08:00","text":"核算系統本來就有提供給機關，讓他在做基本設計審查的時候去規劃他的成本預算用，現在是嫁接……","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:21:48.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:22:09.212000+08:00","text":"另外，我們也要邀請業者來進行測試，除了協助收集數據以及先期輔導業者使用之外，也可以同步收集業者使用的經驗，提前發現系統不良以及不足之處，以進行相關的改善。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:22:10.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:22:19.118000+08:00","text":"這個我們會逐年陸續跟主辦機關互動，回饋一些意見來做修正。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:22:19.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:23:02.428000+08:00","text":"最後的一些建議是，2026年我們要進行相關的這些未來推動規劃，包含系統的公開試用、推廣與輔導，到最後強制採用的期程規劃，這種強制採用的範圍、對象、金額規模的試行以及全面採用，必須要分階段來實施，我們要逐步的來導入這種獎勵，或者是剛才主委所說的金質獎，或者是來研議一下虛擬折價，或是其他相關的獎勵措施。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:23:02.428000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:23:05.570000+08:00","text":"這部分我們遵照辦理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:23:05.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:23:06.931000+08:00","text":"而且我們要開放資料，讓民間參考或者第三方來做一個檢視。","quality":0.36},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:23:07.431000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:23:08.573857+08:00","text":"沒有問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員昆澤","start":"2026-04-13T09:23:08.873857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:23:27.445286+08:00","text":"推動計算的方式要滾動的更新，如果有發現什麼問題，我們必須要滾動的更新，每年評選減排優秀的這一些案例來進行推廣，促進業界的交流，請陳主委來督促。","quality":0.046},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:23:27.745286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:23:29.173857+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T09:23:29.473857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:23:31.473857+08:00","text":"感謝李昆澤委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T09:23:31.773857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:23:41.773857+08:00","text":"我們現場有李昆澤委員、洪孟楷委員，請問各位委員對上次會議的議事錄有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T09:23:42.073857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:23:46.931000+08:00","text":"（無）好，謝謝，沒有意見的話，我們議事錄確定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T09:23:47.231000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:23:50.659571+08:00","text":"接下來邀請洪孟楷委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}