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在這一次的土方之亂連前工程會主委吳哲成啊"},{"start":137.887,"end":145.358,"text":"他也直接就點名是說看不下去認為這次土方之亂問題在於末端土方出處沒有準備好就開始執行流量管制"},{"start":146.865,"end":174.491,"text":"土方業務報告委開宗明義講說你說國家共大公共工程我們要支持沒有問題啊但重點在於是說突然間沒有準備好然後就頒布一個政策所以說造成土方之亂土方之亂之後馬上急救張再去做去化所以到時候選擇到地方要有站置場那這不很草率嗎土方管理三十年了在這個過程裡面有沒有跟地方溝通過土方管理超過三十年了並不是今天才亂"},{"start":176.392,"end":198.147,"text":"就是今年最亂 歷任的主管他們都有進行那今年只是增加了GPS的裝置跟流向管制所以這就變成配套的措施有沒有做好 主委你也不需要開始召集環境部 交通部等相關單位來共同討論吧"},{"start":199.773,"end":225.367,"text":"不是嗎 那另外再來喔前環保署副署長律師詹順貴也稱土方之亂是行政院某政務委員惡搞那位政務委員是誰這個我不了解他講的是誰啦不過我對這位前政務官也知之甚明啦我們彼此了解就好彼此了解就好是什麼意思我了解他的說法至於他講誰你要問他"},{"start":226.567,"end":245.095,"text":"我要問他 你也不清楚是誰那你要問他不是 這不是我要問他 你在這邊反諮詢我現在在問的是說 某政務官員在惡搞嘛那也因此是說 兩位民進黨前朝官員都暗指在這次的土方之亂 事出必有因啊"},{"start":246.343,"end":265.646,"text":"必有妖啊你說30年過去那過去30年就沒有造成今年那麼的餘波蕩漾啊那還有過去如果說30年要處理的話那沒有在巴黎地區找一個土地來做戰志場那為什麼突然間今年這樣子那我只想問就是說巴黎地區的民眾他也給本席陳情"},{"start":266.627,"end":278.059,"text":"他也問我們之前在地方說明會也召集相關單位來之後發覺是完全沒有後續的配套到底你暫置要暫置多久是不是一年哪一個單位可以保證"},{"start":280.474,"end":303.63,"text":"我建議委員我建議委員到內政委員那去執行內政部這不是你建議我而是現在本席就在問的是說既然這已經是跨部會的溝通而有政務委員出來做跨部會的協調的時候那我們想問說到底這個決策的過程地方政府配合然後結果全部中央下來然後地方政府跟我們民間到最後來承受這樣的壓力報告委員誰來看看理解或是了解我們的"},{"start":310.516,"end":310.877,"text":"居民的壓力"},{"start":314.622,"end":342.671,"text":"主委 啊有沒有開過會我是基於這位委員召集相關法律的資訊 是嘛所以那一天的主席是誰什麼 開過很多次會那一天主席是誰哪一天 找相關本席剛剛講的來決定開了多次會議 開了多次會議我的 主委本席現在要的 這哪一次會議做了什麼決定我想問你說 你現在把整個這個土方的主委 本席現在要的是說要看到地方民眾的需求"},{"start":343.191,"end":363.854,"text":"而不是說我們開完會之後後續就變成沒有事所以本席這個陳情書能不能也給我們公共工程委員會一份讓我們公共工程委員會來去了解能夠做的部分請你再以政務委員的立場再召集相關部會甚至地方政府大家共同來討論怎麼樣降低地方的衝擊這樣做得到嗎"},{"start":364.835,"end":379.025,"text":"我基於尊重委員的這個要求啦那因為我身兼政務委員我是可以接受但是請不要把土方之亂灌在我陳金德身上我先 從頭到尾沒有 你要找去找那個詹順貴"},{"start":380.586,"end":403.232,"text":"那但是本席現在要問的是民進黨政府從上到下到底要解決問題要有配套要有措施要有辦法而不是丟出來之後後續讓地方來去吸收我覺得這樣子大家沒有辦法接受所以主委 這個陳情書主委我基於尊重委員的職權 樂意接受好 謝謝 主委等一下我就給我們相關單位來 再來"},{"start":405.473,"end":433.011,"text":"也請主委真的要重視我們中央跟地方溝通的一個部分即便你開會你沒有直接來跟地方溝通你也要要求相關部會應該要跟地方合理說明否則的話這樣子推動真的是讓大家地方滑爛再來另外一個部分公共工程委員會現在要做政府採購法的一個修法嘛齁那都還在這個公告以及相關的一個部分但是其中雖然刪除三家投標的一個限制引發爭議"},{"start":434.372,"end":450.385,"text":"那暫緩有現在是講說暫緩修法不知道什麼時候我們會再審到但另外一個部分草案新增國家安全跟機密採購有可能直接採取限制機招標或是選擇性招標那外界也會有聯想說這又會不會是開大開方便之門"},{"start":451.386,"end":465.821,"text":"謝謝文指教所以我們現在重新在整個在接受各界的法規意見會重新彙整在必要的時候再重新預告所以什麼時候會預告還沒有我們就是彙整之後再重新預告本已經預告過了是"},{"start":467.222,"end":486.922,"text":"預告過啦 就是外界 華蘭以及外界疑慮很多啊包括說因為 本席還是開宗明義談調如果一般的 一般的部分啦主委 如果說外界支持的話你就不會再拿回去重新再修正了啦講大白話 如果說你覺得外界支持很多那就硬推嘛"},{"start":487.563,"end":515.291,"text":"那就送進來嘛 但沒有啊你公告完畢之後你現在你剛剛自己就講是說你又再回去又再修正又再討論代表確實有反彈聲音但是本席現在想強調的是本席現在想強調的是如果說能夠讓一般基層公務同仁能夠更便捷節省他的行政流程讓他增加效率本席不反對這是一般的基層公務同仁但是請聽清楚如果說"},{"start":516.947,"end":539.862,"text":"動不動就拿什麼國安機密機密採購然後扣帽子然後直接就講是說這個東西就直接要進入選擇性招標然後完全沒有外界沒有辦法評估沒有辦法了解然後你就是指定招標的話本期沒有辦法接受為什麼因為過去我們就看到很多機密招標或是很多相關國安的部分什麼軍方買水120塊一罐5萬塊的會議椅"},{"start":543.459,"end":559.916,"text":"那這個部分我真的很擔心說以後如果說你這樣變你的修法通過之後軍方五萬塊會議以算不算是國安機密他認定了之後他就變成是選擇性招標那到最後變成是刷嘛國安機密 駭嘛國安機密"},{"start":561.308,"end":581.622,"text":"我覺得這個是一般民眾都沒有辦法接受的這個個案是確定有這個個案嗎買水用限責性招標嗎不是啊本席就講是說過去到現在有多少這一些都已經這個就是被我們立法院挑出來所以買水到7-11買就可以了啊主委買水到7-11買就可以了對"},{"start":583.203,"end":598.369,"text":"主委所以說你自己也覺得很荒謬嘛你覺得這個標案也很荒謬嘛這個標案就是之前在外交國防委員會外交部報出來的預算被我們外交國防的委員挑出來到最後顧立雄自己說回去的標案啊"},{"start":599.665,"end":621.629,"text":"所以本席現在講的是說什麼本席現在講的是說我們還是要有一個持平性不要什麼事情都打著國安機密的大旗來去做掩護的事實所以本席先提出當然你現在已經講了就是說你還會再做修正之後再做公告嘛對不對預計什麼時候會再公告"},{"start":621.949,"end":640.912,"text":"我們會中整各界一經再來辦理所以目前沒有時間表還沒有好本席還是一樣的態度跟一樣的原則預算當用則用 花在刀口上但是當審則審公共工程委員會是我們國家的主管採購相關標案的機關更應該以身作則以上 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:24:04.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:24:05.740000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩請陳主委。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T09:24:05.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:24:06.242000+08:00","text":"請工程會陳主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:24:06.242000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:24:14.152000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:24:14.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:24:14.152000+08:00","text":"主委好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:24:14.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:24:22.038000+08:00","text":"本席要針對從年初開始，全國有所謂的土方之亂跟工程會來就教。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:24:22.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:24:38.110000+08:00","text":"因為工程會日前有召集環境部、交通部、經濟部、內政部、農業部來討論土方之亂要怎麼解決，最終把包括臺北港、臺中港、高雄港跟南星計畫的土地變成是土方的暫置區跟去化區。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:24:42.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:25:10.295000+08:00","text":"臺北港在本席的選區，可是從頭到尾，八里的民眾以及我們地方的鄉親並沒有參與這個討論，因此現在爆發說原來臺北港外，還不在臺北港內，現在臺北港外，也就是緊鄰我們的馬路旁邊，要有一個土地來做土方暫置區，那地方民眾當然會群起譁然跟反彈，會覺得：為什麼突然間在這邊會有一個暫置區？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:25:11.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:25:16.600000+08:00","text":"後續在這個暫置區上面還要做一個相關的處理，而且所謂的暫置到底是暫置多久？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:25:17.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:25:20.863000+08:00","text":"到目前為止，各方單位沒有辦法給我們明確的答案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:25:21.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:25:28.450000+08:00","text":"我上一次質詢環境部，環境部部長是說一年，但一年之後能不能順利退場？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:25:28.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:25:29.991000+08:00","text":"這一點主委怎麼看？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:25:31.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:26:00.495000+08:00","text":"報告委員，土方的業務是歸內政部主管，關於土方的產出源，包括公共工程，其實民間的建築是大宗，公共工程委員會當然希望包括公共工程的土方出處，能夠有一個合理、便利的去處，不會影響公共工程的進度，但整個土方的處理是由內政部協調交通部去臺北港……是啊……","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:26:00.495000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:26:02.697000+08:00","text":"並非公共工程委員會的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:26:02.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:26:03.877000+08:00","text":"但國土署也算是您督導……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:26:03.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:26:05.599000+08:00","text":"不是公共工程委員會的業務。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:26:05.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:26:07.760000+08:00","text":"是啊，但國土署也算您督導嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:26:07.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:26:08.721000+08:00","text":"那是政務委員的部分。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:26:08.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:26:10.742000+08:00","text":"是，政務委員的部分嘛，沒錯！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:26:11.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:26:24.338000+08:00","text":"但現在我們看到這一次的土方之亂，連前工程會主委吳澤成也直接點名說看不下去，認為這次土方之亂的問題在於末端土方出處沒有準備好，就開始執行流量管制……","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:26:25.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:26:27.665000+08:00","text":"報告委員，土方業務……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:26:28.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:26:46.249000+08:00","text":"開宗明義，你說國家重大公共工程我們要支持，這沒有問題，但重點在於突然間、沒有準備好，就頒布一個政策，所以造成土方之亂，土方之亂之後馬上急就章，再去做去化，所以到最後選擇到地方要有暫置場，這不是很草率嗎？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:26:46.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:26:48.490000+08:00","text":"報告委員，土方管理30年了……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:26:48.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:26:50.410000+08:00","text":"在這個過程裡面有沒有跟地方溝通過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:26:50.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:26:53.491000+08:00","text":"土方管理超過30年了，並不是今天才亂，但歷任的……","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:26:53.491000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:26:57.253000+08:00","text":"就是今年亂、今年最亂！","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:26:57.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:26:58.614000+08:00","text":"歷任都要講的話，今年最亂！","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:26:58.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:27:07.601000+08:00","text":"歷任的主管他們都有進行，今年只是增加了GPS的裝置跟流向管制……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:27:07.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:27:19.673000+08:00","text":"所以這就變成配套的措施有沒有做好，不然主委你也不需要開始召集環境部、交通部等相關單位來共同討論吧，不是嗎？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:27:20.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:27:30.839000+08:00","text":"再來，前環保署副署長、律師詹順貴也稱土方之亂是行政院某政務委員惡搞，那位政務委員是誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:27:30.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:27:38.063000+08:00","text":"我不了解他講的是誰，不過我對這位前政務官也知之甚明，我們彼此了解就好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:27:38.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:27:39.884000+08:00","text":"彼此了解就好是什麼意思？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:27:40.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:27:44.347000+08:00","text":"我了解他的說法，至於他講誰，你要問他。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:27:45.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:27:46.047000+08:00","text":"我要問他？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:27:46.047000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:27:47.508000+08:00","text":"你要問他。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:27:47.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:27:50.009000+08:00","text":"你也不清楚是誰？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:27:50.009000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:27:51.009000+08:00","text":"因為不是我講的，所以你要問他。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:27:51.009000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:27:52.009000+08:00","text":"你也不清楚是誰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:27:50.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:27:50.589000+08:00","text":"你要問他。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:27:50.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:27:53.691000+08:00","text":"不是，這不是我要問他，你在這邊反質詢……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:27:53.691000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:27:54.691000+08:00","text":"因為這個話不是我講的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:27:53.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:28:05.924000+08:00","text":"我現在在問的是，他說某政務委員在惡搞，因此兩位民進黨前朝官員都在暗指這次的土方之亂事出有因，必有妖啊！","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:28:08.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:28:18.799000+08:00","text":"過去30年就沒有造成今年那麼的餘波盪漾，還有，過去如果30年要處理的話，也沒有在八里地區找一個土地來做暫置場……","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:28:18.799000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:28:19.799000+08:00","text":"報告委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:28:18.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:28:20.641000+08:00","text":"那為什麼突然間今年是這樣子？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:28:21.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:28:34.877000+08:00","text":"我只想問，八里地區的民眾也有跟本席陳情，他也問我們之前在地方說明會有召集相關單位來，之後發覺完全沒有後續的配套，到底暫置要暫置多久？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:28:35.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:28:35.778000+08:00","text":"是不是一年？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:28:36.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:28:37.059000+08:00","text":"哪一個單位可以保證？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:28:37.059000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:28:40.855000+08:00","text":"主委，你身為公共工程的主管機關……","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:28:40.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:28:43.237000+08:00","text":"我建議委員到內政委員會去質詢內政部。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:28:43.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:29:02.109000+08:00","text":"這不是你建議我，現在本席就在問的是，既然這已經是跨部會的溝通，而有政務委員出來做跨部會的協調的時候，我們想問到底這個決策的過程，地方政府配合，結果全部中央下來，然後地方政府跟我們民間到最後來承受這樣的壓力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:29:02.109000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:29:03.109000+08:00","text":"報告委員，你還是到內政委員會去質詢……","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:29:02.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:29:09.857000+08:00","text":"誰來看看、理解或是了解我們居民的壓力？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:29:09.857000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:29:13.622000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我建議你到內政委員會去質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:29:13.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:29:16.083000+08:00","text":"主委，有沒有開過會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:29:16.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:29:18.844000+08:00","text":"我是基於政務委員召集相關法律的……是嘛！","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:29:19.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:29:20.544000+08:00","text":"所以那天的主席是誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:29:21.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:29:22.685000+08:00","text":"開過很多次會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:29:22.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:29:23.785000+08:00","text":"那天主席是誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:29:23.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:29:24.025000+08:00","text":"哪一天？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:29:25.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:29:26.586000+08:00","text":"就本席剛剛講的，找相關單位來確定後續……","quality":0.471},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:29:26.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:29:28.847000+08:00","text":"開了多次會議……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:29:30.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:29:31.968000+08:00","text":"主委，本席現在要的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:29:31.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:29:33.408000+08:00","text":"是哪一次會議做了什麼決定？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:29:35.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:29:37.109000+08:00","text":"委員你現在把整個土方的……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:29:37.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:29:50.140000+08:00","text":"主委，本席現在說的是要看到地方民眾的需求，而不是我們開完會之後，後續就變成沒有事，所以本席這個陳情書能不能也給公共工程委員會一份？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:29:50.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:30:02.854000+08:00","text":"讓公共工程委員會來去了解能夠做的部分，請你以政務委員的立場再召集相關部會、甚至地方政府，大家共同來討論怎麼樣降低地方的衝擊，這樣做得到嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:30:04.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:30:11.060000+08:00","text":"基於尊重委員的要求，因為我身兼政務委員，我是可以接受……是。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:30:11.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:30:14.743000+08:00","text":"但是請不要把土方之亂冠在我陳金德身上。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:30:15.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:30:18.025000+08:00","text":"我從頭到尾沒有，你要找去找詹順貴。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:30:20.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:30:34.230000+08:00","text":"本席現在要問的是，民進黨政府從上到下到底……解決問題要有配套、要有措施、要有辦法，而不是丟出來，後續讓地方來吸收，我覺得這樣子大家沒有辦法接受。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:30:34.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:30:36.811000+08:00","text":"所以主委，這個陳情書？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:30:37.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:30:39.472000+08:00","text":"基於尊重委員的職權，我樂意接受。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:30:40.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:30:42.052000+08:00","text":"謝謝，主委，等一下我就給相關單位。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:30:44.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:30:57.602000+08:00","text":"請主委真的要重視中央跟地方溝通的部分，即便開會，你沒有直接來跟地方溝通，也要要求相關部會應該要跟地方合理說明，否則這樣子推動的話，真的是讓地方譁然。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:30:58.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:31:17.095000+08:00","text":"再來，另外一個部分，公共工程委員會現在要做政府採購法的修法，都還在公告以及相關的部分，其中刪除三家投標的限制引發爭議，現在講暫緩修法，不知道什麼時候我們會審到。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:31:17.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:31:29.385000+08:00","text":"另外，草案新增國家安全跟機密採購有可能直接採取限制性招標或是選擇性招標，外界也會聯想這會不會又是大開方便之門？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:31:29.385000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:31:30.386000+08:00","text":"認定的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:31:30.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:31:40.196000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員指教，所以我們在接受各界的寶貴意見後會整個重新彙整，必要時再重新預告。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:31:40.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:31:41.417000+08:00","text":"什麼時候會預告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:31:42.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:31:44.781000+08:00","text":"我們就是彙整之後再重新預告，本已經預告過了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:31:46.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:31:50.006000+08:00","text":"預告過，就是外界譁然以及外界疑慮很多啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:31:50.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:31:54.150000+08:00","text":"因為本席還是開宗明義強調……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:31:54.150000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:31:58.154000+08:00","text":"報告委員，外界贊成的也很多、外界支持的也很多。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:31:58.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:32:02.239000+08:00","text":"主委，如果外界支持的話，你就不會拿回去重新再修正了啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:32:02.239000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:32:03.239000+08:00","text":"所以我們接受不同意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:32:02.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:32:08.243000+08:00","text":"講大白話，如果你覺得外界支持很多，那就硬推嘛、那就送進來嘛，但沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:32:08.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:32:15.425000+08:00","text":"公告完畢之後，你剛剛自己就講，又再回去、又再修正、又再討論，代表確實有反彈聲音！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:32:18.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:32:32.090000+08:00","text":"本席現在想強調的是，如果能夠讓一般基層公務同仁更便捷、節省行政流程，讓他增加效率，本席不反對，這是一般的基層公務同仁。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:32:32.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:32:50.657000+08:00","text":"但是請聽清楚，如果動不動就拿什麼國安機密、機密採購來扣帽子，直接講這個東西要進入選擇性招標，外界沒有辦法評估、沒有辦法了解，然後指定招標的話，本席沒有辦法接受！","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:32:51.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:32:51.637000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:32:51.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:33:04.041000+08:00","text":"因為過去我們就看到很多機密招標或是很多相關國安的部分，什麼軍方買水120塊1罐、5萬塊的會議用椅，這個部分我真的很擔心。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:33:04.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:33:10.747000+08:00","text":"如果你的修法通過之後，軍方5萬塊會議用椅算不算是國安機密？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:33:12.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:33:22.550000+08:00","text":"認定之後，它就變成是選擇性招標，到最後變成什麼都是國安機密，我覺得這是一般民眾都沒有辦法接受的。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:33:22.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:33:25.191000+08:00","text":"剛才委員講的這個個案，是確定有這個個案嗎？","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:33:25.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:33:26.492000+08:00","text":"買水用選擇性招標嗎？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:33:26.492000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:33:27.492000+08:00","text":"還是說5萬元會議用椅有限制性招標嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:33:27.492000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:33:28.492000+08:00","text":"所以國安採購一定有它的必要性才會採取嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:33:26.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:33:36.299000+08:00","text":"不是，本席就講過去到現在這些有多少都已經……這個就是被我們立法院挑出來、就是爆出來……","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:33:36.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:33:38.141000+08:00","text":"買水到7-11買就可以了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:33:38.141000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:33:42.203000+08:00","text":"我相信國安單位不至於買水還列為秘密。","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:33:42.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:33:46.825000+08:00","text":"主委，所以你自己也覺得很荒謬、你覺得這個標案也很荒謬嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:33:47.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:33:57.189000+08:00","text":"這個標案就是之前在外交及國防委員會，外交部報出來的預算，被我們外交及國防委員會的委員挑出來，到最後顧立雄自己收回去的標案啦！","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:33:57.189000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:33:59.926000+08:00","text":"是選擇性招標買水嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:33:59.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:34:20.028000+08:00","text":"本席現在講的是，我們還是要有持平性，不要什麼事情都打著國安機密的大旗來做掩護的事實，所以本席先提出，當然你現在已經講了，你還會再做修正，之後再做公告，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:34:20.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:34:20.609000+08:00","text":"預計什麼時候會再公告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:34:20.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:34:23.572000+08:00","text":"我們綜整各界意見再來辦理。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:34:23.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:34:24.754000+08:00","text":"所以目前沒有時間表？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T09:34:25.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:34:25.635000+08:00","text":"還沒有。好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:34:26.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:34:39.812000+08:00","text":"本席還是一樣的態度跟一樣的原則，預算當用則用，花在刀口上，但是當省則省，公共工程委員會是我們國家主管採購相關標案的機關，更應該以身作則。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-04-13T09:34:39.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T09:34:39.912000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席（李委員昆澤代）","start":"2026-04-13T09:34:40.412000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:34:42.983429+08:00","text":"洪孟楷委員發言完畢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（李委員昆澤代）","start":"2026-04-13T09:34:43.283429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T09:34:46.140571+08:00","text":"現在請林俊憲召委發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}