{"error":false,"id":["168450"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168450,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168450","日期":"2026-04-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-20-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-13T10:10:32+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-13T10:24:56+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:24","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1315f1a85a5442260e63d9eaeca1783e3291cfc8066c9e4d97a26c39964b221c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"10:10:32 - 10:24:56","會議時間":"2026-04-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長及台灣中油股份有限公司董事長、衛生福利部、法務部就「中東衝突對能源、物價、民生與醫療物資供應及市場秩序之中長期影響與因應檢討，暨因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算執行情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":0.36846875,"end":2.83221875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":3.64221875,"end":4.469093750000001,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":6.27471875,"end":8.907218750000002,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"賴署長建信","start":14.644718750000003,"end":15.25221875,"speaker_score":0.871},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":15.89346875,"end":26.575343750000002,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":26.64284375,"end":32.31284375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王總經理耀庭","start":33.32534375,"end":33.79784375,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王總經理耀庭","start":35.65409375,"end":50.30159375,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":39.31596875,"end":39.58596875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":39.58596875,"end":39.602843750000005,"speaker_score":0.748},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":44.024093750000006,"end":44.32784375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":49.96409375,"end":56.56221875000001,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王總經理耀庭","start":57.338468750000004,"end":59.58284375,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":59.211593750000006,"end":64.99971875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王總經理耀庭","start":65.69159375000001,"end":70.04534375,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":69.96096875,"end":71.22659375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":71.64846875,"end":72.76221875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":73.21784375,"end":75.90096875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":76.25534375000001,"end":81.13221875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":81.72284375000001,"end":85.68846875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":86.11034375,"end":87.03846875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":87.51096875,"end":98.22659375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":98.46284375,"end":100.31909375000001,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":100.55534375,"end":103.28909375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":103.87971875000001,"end":107.18721875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":108.68909375000001,"end":131.06534375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":132.58409375000002,"end":247.62096875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":248.05971875,"end":271.26284375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":271.78596875,"end":277.70909375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":275.43096875000003,"end":275.51534375,"speaker_score":0.748},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":275.73471875,"end":275.76846875,"speaker_score":0.748},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":278.02971875000003,"end":280.66221875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":278.09721875,"end":278.35034375000004,"speaker_score":0.748},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":280.81409375000004,"end":282.07971875000004,"speaker_score":0.748},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":282.07971875000004,"end":283.95284375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":284.66159375,"end":288.28971875,"speaker_score":0.748},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":286.75409375000004,"end":289.99409375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":290.75346875,"end":298.48221875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":298.80284375,"end":309.85596875000005,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":310.27784375000005,"end":319.10346875000005,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":319.44096875,"end":329.92034375000003,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":330.52784375000005,"end":332.36721875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":333.53159375,"end":337.41284375000004,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":337.75034375,"end":340.50096875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":341.95221875000004,"end":386.13096875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":386.55284375,"end":391.86846875000003,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":392.17221875,"end":405.09846875000005,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":405.62159375000005,"end":454.55909375000005,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":455.63909375000003,"end":461.64659375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":462.00096875,"end":463.06409375000004,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":463.43534375,"end":519.76409375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":520.4053437499999,"end":530.3953437499999,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":530.68221875,"end":575.83971875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":575.9072187500001,"end":600.62909375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":600.9665937500001,"end":674.98034375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":675.2165937500001,"end":713.8772187500001,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":715.2609687500001,"end":744.43784375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":744.99471875,"end":794.80971875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王總經理耀庭","start":756.9253437500001,"end":758.4609687500001,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王總經理耀庭","start":758.98409375,"end":760.77284375,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":795.5690937500001,"end":840.1359687500001,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王總經理耀庭","start":797.88096875,"end":798.5390937500001,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":840.5747187500001,"end":845.43471875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"賴署長建信","start":840.7097187500001,"end":841.1653437500001,"speaker_score":0.871},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"賴署長建信","start":841.4353437500001,"end":841.7222187500001,"speaker_score":0.871},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"賴署長建信","start":843.2409687500001,"end":848.21909375,"speaker_score":0.871},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王總經理耀庭","start":845.43471875,"end":845.45159375,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":845.45159375,"end":845.6709687500002,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王總經理耀庭","start":845.6709687500002,"end":845.68784375,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"林委員岱樺","start":847.2065937500001,"end":847.24034375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王總經理耀庭","start":847.24034375,"end":848.10096875,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王總經理耀庭","start":848.21909375,"end":848.40471875,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"賴署長建信","start":848.40471875,"end":862.6640937500001,"speaker_score":0.871},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王總經理耀庭","start":848.67471875,"end":849.9740937500001,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王總經理耀庭","start":855.10409375,"end":856.97721875,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":856.97721875,"end":857.0278437500001,"speaker_score":0.748},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王總經理耀庭","start":857.0278437500001,"end":857.0447187500001,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王總經理耀庭","start":858.63096875,"end":858.6984687500001,"speaker_score":0.874},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":858.6984687500001,"end":860.35221875,"speaker_score":0.748},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王總經理耀庭","start":860.35221875,"end":860.3859687500001,"speaker_score":0.874}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.724,"end":8.491,"text":"有請經濟部部長台變中油次長今天是次長次長好委員好"},{"start":15.916,"end":31.364,"text":"好來台電先回答本席一個問題自從3月初我們這個荷末之海峽封鎖之後台電目前增加天然氣購置的成本是什麼狀況請回答"},{"start":35.737,"end":64.805,"text":"中東的情勢是在2月28號左右發生所以3月之後的天然氣的價格是沒有受到影響但是到4月的時候調漲了41.58%我如果用這個河末之海峽封鎖之後你們所增加的天然氣購置的成本那天然氣購置的成本你們預估4月到12月會增加多少的天然氣購置成本"},{"start":65.971,"end":79.285,"text":"對 這個只是因為是每個月都在變動那不是非常固定的好 本席告訴你930億所以從4月到12月那大概930億每個月平均100億台幣"},{"start":81.767,"end":101.302,"text":"因為河末之海峽封鎖那這是你的錯嗎本席不認為那既然今天次長來督導這個所有的這個人員的部分那我認為這是忠友的錯那忠友是不是這是現任董事長的錯那我也不認為是你的錯是誰的錯你們的一個副總主導全台灣天然氣的構置"},{"start":108.715,"end":130.828,"text":"董事長你應該知道我在說你哪一位副總天然氣女神業界是這麼樣瘋的他可以讓台灣現在此時此刻讓我們台灣多花了每天100億的每個月每100億台幣的天然氣成本好那我們來看這整個的始末"},{"start":133.662,"end":149.767,"text":"國際國運國管這是本期的主張台灣能源百分之九十有來自國外天然氣發電佔比已經達到百分之五十以上國際國運國管天然氣是我們自己買的我們也要自己運也要有自己的船隊來管理這是國安"},{"start":151.087,"end":156.009,"text":"生命線那這個歷次本席針對歷次的院長蘇院長陳院長到現在卓院長部長從王部長郭部長到現在的龔部長即使是國發會的龔主委的時候本席也都提出現在天然氣進口"},{"start":166.952,"end":185.838,"text":"合約跟運輸現在這個DES跟FOB這兩種模式在DES我就說它是自氣他運我們自己跟人家採購了就變成自己的天然氣了自給天然氣但是是他運由賣方礦組的船隻自己提供船隻到我方來"},{"start":186.938,"end":207.907,"text":"那FoB呢是自己的天然氣我們買了天然氣之後自己的船隻自己運我們的製器他運用他國的船隻來運的這樣採購模式佔了台灣的85%而我們自己的船隊來自己從礦產運到我們自己的國家這樣才達不到15%"},{"start":212.049,"end":230.353,"text":"那這樣的運費差多少呢其實最了解的就是中油董事長了DES如果用別的國家的船運回來跟我用自己的船運回來 長約來講將近四倍 這四倍是多少呢船租喔 每日DES的這個長約一天船租是40萬美金"},{"start":234.674,"end":240.838,"text":"我的FOB自己的船一天的船租是10萬主計長你要聽清楚你知道看國家損失了多少錢一趟的天然氣要28天我運一趟來28天你看我們現在都是DES的長約佔85%我們的採購"},{"start":254.648,"end":281.784,"text":"四十萬美金一趟一天我們二十八天算三十天好了一千兩百萬美金我們一年有幾百趟幾百趟的那個船次四百大概四百三十幾四百三十二趟次如果我沒有記錯大概四百趟次沒有那麼多好那多少趟次沒關係您說我們天然氣一年要幾趟次大約三百多"},{"start":284.95,"end":309.369,"text":"差不多340到350我們就340是吧 主計長您聽好一天的船隻40萬一趟我們要運一次回來28天40萬乘以28然後呢一年有340趟的船隻你知道我們85%的把船隻船隊是別的國家指望我們花了多少錢"},{"start":310.35,"end":328.562,"text":"然後我們的FOB自己的船隊四艘它的運量不到15%一天是10萬美元這就是我說中油的一個副總他主導全台灣的一個天然氣本期在什麼時候提出這個訴求呢這也是 來 我們下一頁"},{"start":333.564,"end":333.764,"text":"在2022、2023、2024、2025在2022的時候"},{"start":341.991,"end":350.853,"text":"二零二二十一月的時候我要求國企國運好 隔年的二月的時候台電中油各自回答台電說啊我們二零二五的時候我們台電也可以自己來買天然氣不需要像現在全部都有中油來跟中油架構它漲了我也必須全額吸收那中油呢就回答說啊不行啊我一定我不能改為長約我不能改為短約這個FOB喔的長約喔我要到二零三二年的時候我的船"},{"start":371.178,"end":373.839,"text":"DS的長約才改為FOP的長約2032年好 那到了這個隔一個月本席就要求國企 國運 國管我要自己的船隊啊因為現在海峽兩岸都在扣在軍演啊"},{"start":386.585,"end":393.794,"text":"好那軍演之後誰的船只有自己國籍的國家船我派了護艦隊我的船長會親密我們國人我們國家政府的政策他願意在我們國家的艦隊護航之下把天然氣運回來因為我們的發電百分之五十以上是靠天然氣"},{"start":405.709,"end":408.991,"text":"好所以呢我在這邊要求說DS的短單能夠提出來你的長單我不動你佔了70%的長單我就不動了你現在30%的短單跟現貨單"},{"start":421.296,"end":443.429,"text":"我們提出百分之十改為FOB的長單就是我們自己的船隊來運這樣分散風險向美澳採購培養自己的國籍船隊配合國家的政策以防止政治風險在2023年3月的時候提出2024本席再執行2025的時候呢經濟部你終於回覆交通部了好我們願意國企國運國管建立自己的船隊那有沒有作為 沒有"},{"start":444.589,"end":452.614,"text":"那很不幸的就在今年隔年的時候呢中東戰爭爆發河末之海峽封鎖天然氣全球搶單現貨坐地起價這邊我要講明搶單也就不是長約也不是短約而是現貨"},{"start":462.139,"end":476.407,"text":"主計長啊你知道現在的坐地起價我還用所知經濟部不敢回我我不需要商業機密你不要告訴我說你一趟多少不需要但是我想知道的到底你現在現貨搶單什麼叫搶單 化假啦"},{"start":480.169,"end":482.73,"text":"我現在是礦組啦你A國家、B國家、C國家你要來買我現在大家都在搶啊沒有長擋短擋了啦你搶其實要搶會對你真不錯啦但是你知道那個是天價我要的是你現在的搶貨的天的價格"},{"start":499.475,"end":519.235,"text":"跟你用正常FOB我們自己提供長約所的那個長單的價格我要的是這樣的一個比例你們沒有辦法給出來這個等一下我會要求我需要比例就好你就知道國人因為在2022年的時候本席提出國企國運甚至國管"},{"start":520.456,"end":546.353,"text":"你們漠視 其實2022、2023的在戰爭沒有時候陳平時期澳洲、美國都是願意賣的那也願意去談的啊你們不願意 好所以呢我們說國家主權獨立你們就只有在這個政治圖像當中去講主權獨立啊對我林戴華來講我怎麼主權獨立我要讓我國人的人員自主這也要獨立他的民生安全遇到任何的狀況他都能夠主權獨立啊"},{"start":548.875,"end":554.539,"text":"你們有沒有落實 沒有所以台電現在荷末之海峽這個封鎖之後你每個月幾乎增加一百億天然氣天然的這個燃料成本中油配合這個政策動漲民生跟工業企價但不好意思你台電全部就轉嫁給台電你全額漲足所以台電你真的是齁人家在放火燒燒你們家的房子啦你的房子你要自己付錢這樣啦現在中油和台電就是這樣啦好那這個呢在"},{"start":578.456,"end":594.668,"text":"拿國家的人員安全當賭注所以市長經濟我們現在每天台灣一天至少要一艘天然氣靠船港才能維持運作我一天就一定要一艘喔那這次你賭贏了嗎你賭了4月5月說好我們現在船期都已經OK了都穩固了6月"},{"start":601.053,"end":622.605,"text":"你說你們八成掌握在你們手中那你還要賭七月八月九月到年底你要賭什麼所以你們經濟部跟中油賭一定搶得到錢根本無計全球搶當的現況你經濟部跟中油賭所有的不穩定因素都不會爆發根本無視我地緣政治的風險你經濟部跟中油你賭船隻一定會準時靠港無視海運節點的阻礙"},{"start":627.438,"end":645.314,"text":"好這種地緣政治引發能源危機全球能源的焦慮這是赤裸裸的警訊什麼叫做處理這個危機就最高的境界就是不讓危機發生所以我當然對於台灣我不希望他有海域被封鎖但"},{"start":645.834,"end":648.577,"text":"我不讓這個危機發生的時候我怎麼來預防海域被封鎖的如果有這個狀況我們自己的船隊在哪裡目前就那四艘台達輪我們的能源自主權在哪裡現在叫做國際搶單"},{"start":660.948,"end":663.53,"text":"當中國真的封鎖台灣海域的時候你拿什麼去賭台灣2300萬人民的人員自主在哪裡你還要靠這場的賭博弈的邏輯來維持台灣的民生必須跟人員安全嗎好這我再講一下這種叫官僚惰性人員安全的雙面人"},{"start":680.6,"end":685.462,"text":"在承平時期的時候 經濟部終由你說要等到2032年才有機會重新招商改為FOB的模式但現在危機爆發的這個現況政府用緊急的採購方式搶得天價的現貨這證明了什麼 證明本席過往的主張不是不能做 而是你行政單元不願意做你平時不規劃 到了危機發生的時候到處搶單"},{"start":707.791,"end":708.372,"text":"提高了採購的成本這種採購的成本是幾百億幾百億美金啊"},{"start":715.419,"end":733.454,"text":"是跟讓台灣的人員暴露在極高的風險之下主席再兩頁就好地域政治引發人員危機現況是集中跟脆弱我單一依賴中東的企園在卡達百分百的依賴外籍船隻的調度我國慶國運國管的這是本席的這個訴求分散採購風險轉為跟澳洲美國採購強制運人的轉換立即提出10%的採購量改為FOP的長單國防防護網"},{"start":745.063,"end":749.167,"text":"培養國籍船長跟建立國籍船隊好那本席這邊的提出10%提出來你們現在現貨我回到剛才的那一頁我有比較高嗎我們還是日本韓國你看我們的長約謝謝 謝謝主席我們看長約這張表"},{"start":763.439,"end":764.861,"text":"長約跟短約我長約不動你說2032年改為FOP長約沒問題你的短約看右邊你的DES置氣他運跟現貨搶當現在佔80%我只要你這30%的短約其中10%改為長約"},{"start":779.743,"end":794.697,"text":"這樣長約的百分之十再加上你原有的FoB的自棄自運的百分之十五不過二十五的長約自己的船對自己來運日本韓國要求他們自己國家的自己自棄自運達到比例多少百分之三十"},{"start":795.669,"end":800.873,"text":"日本 韓國是這樣我這樣要求只不過從你的15%提高到25%而已好 我們看最後一頁我的主張就是經濟部要回答經濟部要主導落實國企 國運 國管的人才培育跟船隊你要協調相關的部會 交通部 教育部跟中油拒絕再用2032年延旦為藉口國安不能靠賭運氣拒絕 依賴"},{"start":821.67,"end":839.385,"text":"偶然的幸運國家人員安全需要制度化的長期保障跟自主權拒絕天價高額的應急平時不規劃暫時到處搶單的狼狽模式將使台灣人員暴露這個極高的風險一個月內交付國企國運國管的具體時針到本委員會來可以嗎"},{"start":840.666,"end":861.916,"text":"好 謝謝你到最後用書面回應就好了因為我們今天時間拖得比較長不用回應了就用書面回應就好了經濟部對於能源的安全從來不是用賭的我們設法消除了殘餘風險時間到了我們就直接用書面回應是在過油過氣的部分都是依照國際的行"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:10:32.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:10:36.267000+08:00","text":"有請經濟部部長、台電、中油。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T10:10:38.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:10:39.350000+08:00","text":"今天是次長備詢。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:10:39.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:10:39.790000+08:00","text":"次長，好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-13T10:10:39.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:10:40.470000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺：好。請台電先回答本席一個問題","start":"2026-04-13T10:10:50.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:03.224000+08:00","text":"自從3月初荷姆茲海峽封鎖之後，台電目前增加天然氣購置的成本是什麼狀況？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺：好。請台電先回答本席一個問題","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:03.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:03.344000+08:00","text":"請回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王總經理耀庭","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:07.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:20.500000+08:00","text":"中東的情勢是在2月28號左右發生，所以3月的時候天然氣價格沒有受到影響，但是到4月的時候調漲了41.58%。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:20.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:28.363000+08:00","text":"我問的是荷姆茲海峽封鎖之後你們所增加的天然氣購置成本。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:29.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:31.363000+08:00","text":"天然氣購置的成本……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:31.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:36.785000+08:00","text":"你們預估4月到12月會增加多少天然氣購置成本？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王總經理耀庭","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:37.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:41.755000+08:00","text":"這個值是每個月都在變動，不是非常固定。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:41.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:45.319000+08:00","text":"好，本席告訴你，930億。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:46.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:56.509000+08:00","text":"從4月到12月大概930億，每個月平均100億臺幣，因為荷姆茲海峽封鎖。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:56.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:58.210000+08:00","text":"這是你的錯嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:58.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:59.691000+08:00","text":"本席不認為。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:59.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:12:07.878000+08:00","text":"既然今天次長來督導所有能源的部分，我認為這是中油的錯。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:12:08.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:12:09.739000+08:00","text":"以中油來講，是不是現任董事長的錯？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:12:10.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:12:11.540000+08:00","text":"我也不認為是他的錯。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:12:11.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:12:11.680000+08:00","text":"是誰的錯？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:12:11.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:12:39.626000+08:00","text":"就是你們一個副總在主導全臺灣天然氣的購置，董事長，你應該知道我在說你們哪一位副總，就是「天然氣女神」，業界是這樣封的，他可以讓我們臺灣現在、此時此刻每個月多花了100億臺幣的天然氣成本。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:12:41.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:12:42.808000+08:00","text":"我們來看整個始末。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:12:45.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:12:47.523000+08:00","text":"國氣國運、國管這是本席的主張。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:12:47.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:13:04.087000+08:00","text":"臺灣能源99%來自國外，天然氣發電占比已經達到50%以上，所謂國氣國運、國管是指天然氣是我們自己買的，我們要自己運，也要有自己的船隊來管理，這是國安生命線。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:13:05.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:13:07.809000+08:00","text":"本席質詢過歷任的行政院院長，包括蘇院長、陳院長到現在的卓院長，也質詢過歷任的經濟部部長，從王部長、郭部長到現在的龔部長，即使他身為國發會龔主委的時候，本席也都有提出。","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:13:07.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:13:45.101000+08:00","text":"現在天然氣進口的合約跟運輸有DES跟FOB這兩種模式，DES（自氣他運）是我們自己跟人家採購，就變成自己的天然氣，雖然是自己的天然氣，但是是他運，由賣方礦主自己提供船隻運到我方來；FOB則是我們買了天然氣之後，由自己的船隻自己運。","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:13:46.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:14:06.550000+08:00","text":"自氣他運（用他國的船隻來運）的採購模式占了臺灣的85%，而我們自己的船隊從礦產地運到我們自己國家的才不到15%，兩者的運費差多少呢？","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:14:07.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:14:09.410000+08:00","text":"其實最了解的就是中油董事長了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:14:09.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:14:18.972000+08:00","text":"如果採取DES、用別的國家的船運回來，跟我們用自己的船運回來，以長約來講，DES的運輸費是FOB的將近4倍，這4倍是多少呢？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:14:21.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:14:29.996000+08:00","text":"DES長約一天的船租是40萬美金，FOB自己的船一天的船租是10萬。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:14:29.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:14:31.397000+08:00","text":"主計長，你要聽清楚，你知道國家損失了多少錢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:14:31.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:14:59.115000+08:00","text":"運一趟的天然氣要28天，你看，我們現在都是DES的長約，占85%，一天的船租是40萬美金，一趟算30天好了，總共是1,200萬美金，我們一年有幾百趟的船次？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:00.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:15:07.160000+08:00","text":"大概432趟次，如果我沒有記錯，大概400趟次……沒有那麼多？沒有。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:07.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:15:08.721000+08:00","text":"好，那多少趟次？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:08.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:15:12.443000+08:00","text":"沒關係，您說，我們天然氣一年要幾趟次？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:12.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:15:13.764000+08:00","text":"大約三百多。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:13.764000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:15:16.950000+08:00","text":"好，三百多，多多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:16.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:15:18.812000+08:00","text":"差不多340到350左右。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:19.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:15:19.913000+08:00","text":"好，我們就以340來算好了。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:20.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:15:21.734000+08:00","text":"主計長，您聽好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:22.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:15:41.369000+08:00","text":"一天的船資40萬，我們運一次回來需要28天，40萬乘以28，然後一年有340趟的船次，你知道占我們85%、船隊是別的國家的，我們花了多少錢？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:42.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:15:57.560000+08:00","text":"然後我們的FOB、自己的船隊4艘，運量不到15%，一天是10萬美元，這就是我說的中油一個副總主導全臺灣的天然氣。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:57.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:16:00.102000+08:00","text":"本席在什麼時候提出這個訴求呢？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:16:00.102000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:16:14.911000+08:00","text":"在2022年、2023年、2024年、2025年。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:16:14.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:16:43.838000+08:00","text":"2022年11月的時候，我要求國氣國運，隔年2月的時候，台電、中油各自回答，台電說2025年的時候，台電也可以自己來買天然氣，不需要像現在全部都跟中油價購，中油漲了，台電也必須全額吸收；中油就回答：不行，我不能改為長約，不能改為FOB的長約，要到2032年的時候DES的長約才可以改為FOB的長約。","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:16:43.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:17:05.794000+08:00","text":"又隔了一個月，本席就要求國氣國運、國管，我要求要用自己的船隊，因為現在海峽兩岸都在軍演，軍演之後，只有自己國籍的國家船，在派了護艦隊的情況下，船長會聽命我們國人、我們國家政府的政策，願意在我們國家艦隊的護航之下，把天然氣運回來，因為我們的發電50%以上是靠天然氣。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:17:17.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:17:20.070000+08:00","text":"所以我在這邊要求DES的短單能夠提出來，長單我不動，占了70%的長單，我就不動了。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:17:20.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:17:44.322000+08:00","text":"針對你們現在30%的短單跟現貨單，我提出10%改為FOB的長單，就是我們自己的船隊來運，這樣分散風險，向美、澳採購，培養自己的國籍船隊，配合國家的政策，以防止政治風險。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:17:44.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:17:54.828000+08:00","text":"以上是本席在2023年3月的時候提出，2024年本席再質詢，2025年的時候經濟部終於回復交通部了，願意國氣國運、國管，建立自己的船隊。","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:17:54.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:17:55.409000+08:00","text":"那有沒有作為？沒有！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:17:56.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:18:03.693000+08:00","text":"很不幸地，就在隔年（今年）的時候中東戰爭爆發，荷姆茲海峽封鎖，天然氣全球搶單，現貨坐地起價。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:18:03.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:18:04.614000+08:00","text":"這邊我要講明，這個搶單既不是長約，也不是短約，而是現貨。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:18:14.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:18:28.327000+08:00","text":"主計長，你知道為了了解現在的坐地起價，我還用索資的方式，經濟部不敢回我，我不需要知道商業機密、不需要告訴我一趟多少錢，但是我想知道的是，到底你們現在現貨搶單了……什麼叫做搶單？","quality":0.782},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:18:28.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:18:34.290000+08:00","text":"就是喊價，假設我是礦主，A國家、B國家、C國家現在要來跟我買，大家都在搶，沒有長單、短單了，其實如果搶得到就算不錯了，但是你知道那個是天價。","quality":0.683},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:18:34.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:03.647000+08:00","text":"我要的是你們現在搶貨的價格跟用正常FOB長單的價格，我要的是這樣的比例，但是你們沒有辦法給出來，等一下我會要求，我只要比例就好。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:05.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:21.642000+08:00","text":"因為在2022年的時候本席提出國氣國運甚至國管，你們漠視，其實2022年、2023年沒有戰爭，在承平時期，澳洲、美國都是願意賣的，也願意去談的，但是你們不願意。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:23.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:31.869000+08:00","text":"我們說國家是主權獨立，你們就只有在政治圖像當中去講主權獨立，對我林岱樺來講，我怎麼主權獨立？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:32.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:41.275000+08:00","text":"我要讓國人的能源自主，這個也要獨立，也就是民生安全遇到任何的狀況都能夠主權獨立，你們有沒有落實？沒有！","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:41.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:43.277000+08:00","text":"所以現在荷姆茲海峽封鎖之後，台電每個月幾乎增加100億的天然氣燃料成本。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:43.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:45.038000+08:00","text":"中油配合政府政策，凍漲民生跟工業用氣價格，但不好意思，你全部就轉嫁給台電、全額漲足！","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:45.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:46.439000+08:00","text":"所以台電真的是……人家在放火燒你家的房子，你的房子要自己付錢，現在中油跟台電就是這樣。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:46.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:20:24.707000+08:00","text":"這是在拿國家的能源安全當賭注，次長，現在臺灣每天至少要1艘天然氣船靠港才能維持運作，1天就一定要1艘，那這次你賭贏了嗎？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:20:24.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:20:40.217000+08:00","text":"你賭了4月、5月，你說現在船期都已經OK了、都穩固了；你說6月八成掌握在你們手中；那你還要賭7月、8月、9月到年底、你還要賭什麼？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:20:40.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:20:54.605000+08:00","text":"你們經濟部跟中油賭一定搶得到船，根本無忌全球搶單的現況；經濟部跟中油賭所有的不穩定因素都不會爆發，根本無視我們地緣政治的風險；經濟部跟中油賭船隻一定會準時靠港，無視海運節點的阻礙。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:20:59.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:21:08.746000+08:00","text":"這種地緣政治引發能源危機、全球能源焦慮是赤裸裸的警訊，如何處理這個危機？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:21:09.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:21:18.555000+08:00","text":"最高的境界就是不讓危機發生，當然我不希望臺灣海域被封鎖，但為了不讓這個危機發生，我怎麼來預防？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:21:18.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:21:19.416000+08:00","text":"如果有海域被封鎖的狀況，我們自己的船隊在哪裡？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:21:19.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:21:20.457000+08:00","text":"目前就那4艘台達輪，我們的能源自主權在哪裡？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:21:20.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:21:33.488000+08:00","text":"現在叫做國際搶單，當中國真的封鎖臺灣海域的時候，你拿什麼去賭？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:21:33.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:21:33.889000+08:00","text":"臺灣2,300萬人民的能源自主在哪裡？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:21:33.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:21:34.369000+08:00","text":"你還要靠這套博弈的邏輯來維持臺灣的民生必須跟能源安全嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:21:35.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:21:55.861000+08:00","text":"能源安全的雙面人，在承平時期的時候，經濟部、中油說要等到2032年才有機會重新招商改為FOB模式，但現在危機爆發的現況下，政府用緊急採購方式搶得天價的現貨，這證明了什麼？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:21:55.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:21:56.782000+08:00","text":"證明本席過往的主張不是不能做，而是行政單位不願意做。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:21:56.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:22:20.292000+08:00","text":"你平時不規劃，到了危機發生的時候到處搶單，提高了採購的成本，這種採購的成本是幾百億、幾百億美金！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:22:27.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:22:30.542000+08:00","text":"更讓臺灣的能源供應暴露在極高的風險之下。好……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:22:31.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:22:32.163000+08:00","text":"主席，再2頁就好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:22:32.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:22:41.631000+08:00","text":"地域政治引發能源危機，現況是集中跟脆弱，我們單一依賴中東的氣源在卡達，百分百依賴外籍船隻的調度。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:22:42.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:22:59.265000+08:00","text":"「國氣國運、國管」是本席的訴求，分散採購風險：轉為跟澳洲、美國採購；強制運能轉換：立即提出10%採購量改為FOB長單；國防防護網：培養國籍船長跟建立國籍船隊。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:22:59.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:23:00.966000+08:00","text":"本席這邊提出10%的現貨，回到剛才的那一頁，我們有比較高嘛，我們還輸日本、韓國，你看我們的長約……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T10:23:00.966000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:23:01.966000+08:00","text":"盡快結束，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:23:00.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:23:00.987000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:23:01.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:23:16.501000+08:00","text":"我們看長約這張表，有長約跟短約，長約不動，你說2032年改為FOB長約，沒問題；短約看右邊，DES（自氣他運）跟現貨搶單現在占30%。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:23:16.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:23:40.811000+08:00","text":"我只要你這30%短約其中的10%改為長約，這樣長約的10%再加上原有FOB（自氣自運）的15%，不過25%的長約，自己的船隊自己來運。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:23:40.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:23:45.355000+08:00","text":"日本、韓國要求他們國家的自氣自運達到多少比例？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:23:47.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:23:48.350000+08:00","text":"30%，日本、韓國是這樣。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:23:48.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:23:49.030000+08:00","text":"我這樣要求，只不過從你的15%提高到25%而已。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:23:49.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:23:52.613000+08:00","text":"我們看最後一頁我的主張，經濟部要回答，經濟部要主導落實「國氣國運、國管」的人才培育跟船隊，你要協調相關的部會：交通部、教育部跟中油，拒絕再用2032年延宕為藉口。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:23:52.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:27.442000+08:00","text":"國安不能靠賭運氣：拒絕依賴偶然的幸運，國家能源安全需要制度化的長期保障跟自主權；拒絕天價高額的應急：平時不規劃、戰時到處搶單的狼狽模式將使臺灣能源供應暴露於極高風險。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:27.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:31.385000+08:00","text":"1個月交付「國氣國運、國管」的具體時程到本委員會來，可以嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:32.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:37.888000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，到最後用書面回應就好了，因為今天時間拖得比較長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:37.888000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:38.888000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，我們依照主席的建議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:38.888000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:39.888000+08:00","text":"但是我在這邊跟委員報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:37.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:41.250000+08:00","text":"不用回應了，用書面回應就好了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:41.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:47.993000+08:00","text":"經濟部對於能源安全從來不是用賭的，我們設法消除了殘餘風險，而我們的國營事業無論是……","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:47.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:47.993000+08:00","text":"時間到！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:49.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:50.654000+08:00","text":"就直接用書面回應。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:50.654000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:51.995000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:51.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:53.796000+08:00","text":"購油、購氣的部分都是依照國際的……謝謝。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:54.296000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:25:09.153143+08:00","text":"今天因為時間的關係，另外委員會也很多人登記，等一下我要讓大家有時間上洗手間，所以拜託大家時間稍微做一下控制，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T10:25:09.453143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:25:12.024571+08:00","text":"接下來請顏寬恒委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}