{"error":false,"id":["168452"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168452,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168452","日期":"2026-04-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-36-6","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":6,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-13T10:23:57+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-13T10:35:44+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:47","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e111b9a8776cd36bd7306a382356a5b219291cfc8066c9e4d9b67cecec6b19759e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:23:57 - 10:35:44","會議時間":"2026-04-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查委員賴瑞隆等20人擬具「貪污治罪條例第十二條條文修正草案」案等6案。\n二、繼續併案審查委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第八十三條條文修正草案」案等29案。\n三、併案審查委員黃捷等19人擬具「中華民國刑法施行法增訂第八條之三條文草案」案等16案。\n四、併案審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「民法第一百九十七條條文修正草案」案等3案。\n【開會事由二至四僅進行詢答】\n【詳見議事日程】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":0.03096875,"end":0.5372187500000001,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":11.72534375,"end":16.73721875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":18.660968750000002,"end":20.33159375,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":20.04471875,"end":53.76096875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.21534375,"end":35.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":54.385343750000004,"end":75.56346875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":76.33971875,"end":88.64159375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.43159375,"end":82.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":89.06346875,"end":103.42409375000001,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.49721875,"end":94.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.03721875000001,"end":95.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":103.05284375000001,"end":105.02721875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":105.02721875,"end":126.30659375,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.38846875,"end":115.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.66221875000001,"end":118.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":118.69596875,"end":119.08409375000001,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":126.05346875000001,"end":129.86721875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":130.23846875,"end":139.95846875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":140.46471875,"end":141.91596875000002,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":142.69221875,"end":142.79346875000002,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":142.79346875000002,"end":144.91971875000002,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":145.89846875,"end":146.74221875,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":147.21471875,"end":148.61534375000002,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":148.15971875,"end":149.56034375000002,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":149.56034375000002,"end":195.89909375000002,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.19471875000002,"end":167.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":170.92409375,"end":170.94096875000002,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.94096875000002,"end":171.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.16034375,"end":171.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":196.72596875000002,"end":260.05784375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.46346875,"end":202.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":260.42909375,"end":264.22596875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":264.79971875,"end":275.59971875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":276.83159375,"end":307.93221875,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":279.48096875000005,"end":279.83534375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":301.80659375000005,"end":302.41409375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":307.66221875,"end":325.53284375000004,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":325.92096875000004,"end":338.86409375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":338.91471875,"end":344.29784375,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":344.58471875000004,"end":348.80346875000004,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":349.79909375,"end":354.97971875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":354.97971875,"end":355.26659375,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":361.81409375000004,"end":366.79221875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":367.14659375,"end":402.61784375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":402.75284375,"end":404.77784375000005,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":405.67221875,"end":483.65159375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":484.41096875000005,"end":491.49846875000003,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":491.51534375000006,"end":505.11659375000005,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":506.28096875000006,"end":520.6415937500001,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":521.0972187500001,"end":529.41659375,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":524.52284375,"end":525.90659375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":525.94034375,"end":525.9740937500001,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":526.07534375,"end":526.63221875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":529.9734687499999,"end":533.0278437500001,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":533.92221875,"end":535.1709687499999,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":536.77409375,"end":552.0459687499999,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":552.4172187500001,"end":565.29284375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":565.6472187500001,"end":569.25846875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":569.8828437500001,"end":572.73471875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.46034375,"end":627.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":584.6315937500001,"end":585.12096875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.05096875,"end":632.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":632.50596875,"end":642.0403437500001,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.8840937500001,"end":647.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.9465937500001,"end":662.6615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":663.31971875,"end":669.7490937500002,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":669.9853437500001,"end":706.38471875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":708.44346875,"end":709.18596875,"speaker_score":0.97}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.753,"end":15.676,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請法務部好 有請次長"},{"start":20.52,"end":45.086,"text":"市長好那首先我想先了解一個狀況因為兩個星期前我才在這個委員會裡面去質詢過司法院的法警制度但沒想過兩個禮拜之後法務部這邊也出了狀況就是最近台北地檢署發生了一件非常離譜的事情一名同時涉及毒品案件又被新北地檢署通緝的男子被送到北檢之後呢竟然因為"},{"start":45.946,"end":75.369,"text":"疑似因為這個罰警的交接沒有交接清楚直接在地檢署裡面被放走了我想一般民眾聽到這個新聞都會覺得非常的驚不可思議啦非常的驚訝因為大家會覺得說一個被通緝的人被帶進地檢署之後怎麼可能會被放走呢所以這件事情其實暴露了幾個很關鍵的問題這也是想要跟次長來討論的就是說人犯交接的流程通緝身份的確認還有最後放行的程序到底有沒有程度這個程序上的漏洞"},{"start":76.389,"end":104.626,"text":"我們現在在這個全國的各地檢署對於法警在交接人訓人犯後訓後保解送以及最後的放行流程到底有沒有一套一致而且明確的SOP請教次長跟委員報告就是說我們法務部這邊也會再加強教育訓練因為發生這種事情我想民眾也都就覺得不樂見因為這個確實是如果是法警在交接的時候有這樣的一個狀況那我們到底有沒有一個明確的SOP"},{"start":105.086,"end":126.942,"text":"我們有我們的相關上就是說這個就是說對接這個叫通緝犯然後以及就是說在罰金管控上我們有我們的制度北建也有他的制度所以說就是說有了制度之後還是要落實所以說針對這個事情上有沒有在環節上有些狀況的部分的話我們會請北建這邊就是再來注意然後再調好因為我想這個對民眾來說齁我覺得實在是"},{"start":130.585,"end":146.4,"text":"我覺得太驚訝了所以是不是可以說回去要好好的我想你們應該也在做檢討了啦這個到底上面為什麼沒有辦法落實所以這個部分的檢討報告是不是也可以提供給我們好嗎那大概什麼時候可以提供呢你們現在預估什麼時候會提出這個檢討報告可以一個月嗎"},{"start":147.287,"end":170.874,"text":"一個月是嗎好喔好謝謝好那接下來就回到我們今天的重點就是有關於這個刑法八十條那我想今天剛剛在這個發言的時候其實我也說明了為什麼這個兒少性侵的這個推唆期限呢應該有必要來去做一些調整因為最主要是因為大多數是發生在熟人性侵特別是家人家內性侵或是師長他相信的人等等的"},{"start":171.434,"end":195.195,"text":"這都會造成兒少要出來講這件事情是非常的困難那我現在看我們的立法院跟這個法務部其實已經有一個相當的共識但是我今天想要討論的是犯罪被害人的補償機制就是說在我們的犯保法第63條裡面其實是有一個請求時效那在這我們提出了這個請求時效過去經常被大家詬病"},{"start":196.796,"end":224.693,"text":"那現在我看到了就是說法務部提出了一個新的設計叫做障礙適由簡單來說就是說這個被害人在原本的身體期限快到之前的一年內因為可能是因為和加害人有共同生活或照顧關係或者是因為性侵造成嚴重創傷或者是受到了威脅控制那就可以在第一次向警察或檢察官說出受害經過的一年內再提出補償申請"},{"start":226.414,"end":250.675,"text":"我想我肯定這樣子的制度是有在前進我也理解法務部這樣子的設計的出發點但是因為這個兒少性侵犯和一般犯罪還是非常的不一樣因為很多孩子不是有權利而不主張而是在那個時間點還是沒有辦法說出來對不對所以我想請教就是法務部既然已經理解了孩子其實有說不出來的難處那為什麼還要做這樣子的限制呢因為他"},{"start":251.175,"end":274.828,"text":"孩子還是很難去說我因為當時被可能自己的家人性侵所以我才沒有申請他還是沒有辦法講出來啊能力上面就是做不到嘛所以我認為這樣子的設計還是太嚴苛了想請教次長這個是不是還可以做修正那第二個就是說如果我們法律只有列出這幾種障礙事由的時候未來在審查上會不會是變成另外一種高門檻"},{"start":277.237,"end":301.7,"text":"謝謝委員的這樣的一個提醒就是委員的這個對於我們這樣的這個這個性被性這個兒少的這個部分的保護其實我們跟法務部我們都是一樣那我們目前跟委員報告就是說我們的這個犯罪被害人的保障法的這個部分條文修正草案現在因為他的進度上就是公告就是說我們是就是說做那個法案的一個預告"},{"start":302.321,"end":325.25,"text":"那這個部分上都還可以有一些意見上我們這邊都還可以做一些調整好 那就是說我希望就是說在這件事情上面我想民間有許多的學者在主張說只要案件已經進入這個司法的機關調查或者檢察官已經起訴就不應該再讓被害人因為時效而被排除在這樣子的補償之外"},{"start":326.27,"end":354.569,"text":"這樣子的方向我希望就是說在我們這次預告之後收集完大家的意見之後我們可以再去做一個更細緻的調整讓我們的兒少被害人他的補償這件權利不會被消失可以嗎謝謝委員調整我們會盡速的就是收集各界的意見後報行政院做安整的審查好那再來最後一件事情就是我國的這個犯罪這個貪污治罪條例那接下來這個可能要請司法院抱歉"},{"start":361.86,"end":386.297,"text":"抱歉法務部還不能走 法務委員加請司法院兩個就是說我們長期受重刑化的一個思維影響容易把性質差異很大的案件放在同一個高刑度的框架來處理那我想如果沒有足夠的分流跟層次也可能違反比例原則讓法律失去一個精細評價的能力所以今天這個第12條的修法重點就是針對於金額已經是比較低的清潔比較輕微的個案"},{"start":387.978,"end":403.185,"text":"是不是可以有一些調整的空間而不是一律落入這個過重的刑罰那法務部其實也有提到這個12條的真定免除期刑也是在除了減刑之外有一個具體個案中可作免刑判決的一個條件"},{"start":405.706,"end":422.994,"text":"那但是呢我想今天跟大家先討論一下這個嚴格就過去在62年在8月7號修正案當時的條文是規定第4條到第6條各款之罪輕微而且所得或所圖得財物在三圈圓之下是適用有較輕處罰規定的刑法"},{"start":424.795,"end":450.67,"text":"所以在當時的立法思考其實不是在貪污治罪條例裡面調整刑度而是認為某些非常小而非常輕微的案件可以回到一般處罰比較輕的法律來處理可是可以看到在81年6月30號的修法制度又改了原本的3000被提高成5萬塊的新台幣而且法律效果也從適用較輕處罰規定之刑罰或其他法律改成"},{"start":452.111,"end":471.276,"text":"清其刑也就是說立法者當時是只針對情節輕微金額較低的案件在貪污之罪條例的架構中保留了減刑空間那所以在這個法律嚴格我們看到了兩件事情第一個就是這個金額的門檻是立法政策的選擇的結果不是一個不能討論也不能檢討的數字"},{"start":473.396,"end":482.994,"text":"那第二個既然當年可以從三千調整到五萬塊就表示立法者本身就承認了小兒案件的界限會隨著時代背景而有需要重新設定"},{"start":485.086,"end":504.762,"text":"所以我想了解就是說從過去我們可以看到法律的嚴格從當初不是五萬塊當初為什麼是五萬塊或是兩萬塊或是三萬塊其實我們看不到更明確的說明所以請教法務部啦針對這樣子多年的五萬元的標準你們有沒有重新檢討過它是否合理那原因又是什麼"},{"start":506.668,"end":534.942,"text":"那這個金額是不是那個提高這個部分會通盤的一個檢討啦那並考量個人的法律的情感去審查說這個部分是不是修正因為事實上五萬元這個部分到底是不是說夠高了那這個部分其實是一個非常不明確的非常判斷的問題那我們目前在這個部分上還是以五萬塊來做判斷所以我想這是在那我請教一下司法院好了好不好"},{"start":536.806,"end":565.039,"text":"好因為我想這一題如果說法通過之後最重要還是回到司法院這邊要做法院要做判決嘛但是大家都在談這個情節要怎麼去做評估這其實是非常的抽象那法官在實務上面要如何判斷情節輕微呢是只看金額還是要看這個被告的職位收受的利益的太陽還有對公務連結的損害是否反覆發生等等的所以我認為就是說這個在法院的實務上面"},{"start":565.839,"end":572.481,"text":"你們會不會認為這個是會有一些要說得更清楚的地方呢?"},{"start":573.484,"end":600.559,"text":"是 報告委員關於這個《貪污秩序條例》12條它的這個門檻金額到底是要多少那這個是一個高度就誠如剛剛市長所言它是一個高度價值判斷的問題那至於說依人民之社會通念如何才為最為適當這個部分尊重大院之決定那在司法實務上呢即使沒有這樣的條文其實我們也有實質違法性的理論來做一個具體的因應只不過關於實質違法性的"},{"start":601.019,"end":620.045,"text":"在怎麼樣的狀況下屬於情節行為如同委員剛剛所提到他必須綜合考量各種因素那也會涉及個別法官關於個案的這個情節以及這個審酌的這個情況不同而異那所以說如果這個本大院今天這個討論這個貪污罪條例第12條去訂出一個比較適當的一個門檻讓法院來統一適用那對於這個這個"},{"start":628.248,"end":641.819,"text":"整個法律適用的平等一致性會有比較好的效果以上報告所以我想這個是不是我們要有一個比較清楚的立法理由甚至是提供實務實用的方向才會讓我們在實務的判決上面有個比較清楚的issue呢"},{"start":643.693,"end":662.109,"text":"這個部分的立法理由它是可以補充這個相關的這個有關這個門檻那但是門檻我會建議就是說如果它是一個比較明確的門檻有利於法官來適用是比較好的選擇那至於說在具體的狀況那這個部分再由法官來做量刑的橫著"},{"start":663.339,"end":686.575,"text":"好 了解那我想最後就是再總結一下就是說我想站在我們的立場上面就是貪污其實是反貪污是不能退的一件事情是絕對要被捍衛的一件事情那根據聯合國反貪腐公約呢真正有說服力的反貪法制也不是說把所有的案件都用同樣的嚴厲的方式來處理而是讓重大的貪污要受到最嚴厲的譴責同時也讓情節顯然比較輕微的案件有一個合理的區分那這樣子的話我想這個"},{"start":692.119,"end":705.928,"text":"民眾就可以看到法律不是變鬆而是變得更穩更準更能夠服眾那也希望就是今天剛剛在說的一些細節的部分法務部也要再做審慎的處理這樣子謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:09.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:09.533000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:09.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:11.035000+08:00","text":"有請法務部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:12.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:12.676000+08:00","text":"請次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:12.676000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:17.680000+08:00","text":"主席、委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:17.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:17.680000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:19.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:30.543000+08:00","text":"首先，我想先了解一個狀況，兩個星期前，我才在這個委員會裡面質詢過司法院的法警制度，但沒想到過了兩個禮拜之後，法務部也出了狀況。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:30.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:24:58.378000+08:00","text":"就是最近臺北地檢署發生了一件非常離譜的事情，一名同時涉及毒品案件，又被新北地檢署通緝的男子，被送到北檢之後，竟然疑似因為法警沒有交接清楚，直接在地檢署裡面被放走，我想一般民眾聽到這個新聞，都會覺得非常不可思議、非常驚訝，因為大家會覺得被通緝的人被帶進地檢署之後，怎麼可能會被放走呢？","quality":0.992},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:24:59.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:25:12.349000+08:00","text":"所以這件事情其實暴露了幾個很關鍵的問題，這個也是想要跟次長來討論的，有關人犯交接的流程、通緝身分的確認，還有最後放行的程序，到底有沒有程序上的漏洞？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:25:13.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:25:24.956000+08:00","text":"現在在全國各地檢署，對於法警交接人犯、候訊、候保、解送，以及最後的放行流程，到底有沒有一套一致而且明確的SOP？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:25:25.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:25:26.077000+08:00","text":"請教次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-04-13T10:25:26.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:25:39.424000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，法務部會再加強教育訓練，發生這種事情，我想民眾也都不樂見，確實如果是法警在交接的時候有這樣的狀況……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:25:40.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:25:41.606000+08:00","text":"所以到底有沒有明確的SOP？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-04-13T10:25:43.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:25:51.893000+08:00","text":"相關對通緝犯以及法警管控上，我們有我們的制度，北檢也有他的制度。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-04-13T10:25:53.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:26:03.142000+08:00","text":"有了制度之後還是要落實，針對這個事情，在環節上有沒有一些狀況，這部分會請北檢再來注意、再調整。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:26:03.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:26:17.554000+08:00","text":"因為我想這對民眾來說，實在是會覺得太驚訝，所以是不是回去可以好好地……我想你們應該也在做檢討了，到底這上面為什麼沒辦法落實，這部分的檢討報告，是不是也可以提供給我們？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:26:17.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:26:18.735000+08:00","text":"大概什麼時候可以提供呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:26:19.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:26:21.698000+08:00","text":"你們現在預估什麼時候會提出檢討報告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-04-13T10:26:22.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:26:25.727000+08:00","text":"可以一個月嗎？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-04-13T10:26:26.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:26:26.608000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:26:26.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:26:41.072000+08:00","text":"接下來就回到今天的重點，就是有關於刑法第八十條，剛剛在發言的時候，其實我也說明了為什麼兒少性侵的追訴期限應該有必要去做一些調整？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:26:41.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:26:52.217000+08:00","text":"最主要是因為大多數是發生在熟人性侵，特別是家內性侵或是師長、他相信的人等等的，這都會造成兒少要出來講這件事情是非常困難。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:26:52.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:27:41.693000+08:00","text":"我現在看立法院跟法務部其實已經有相當的共識，但是我今天想要討論的是犯罪被害人的補償機制，在犯保法第六十三條裡面其實有請求時效，這個請求時效過去經常被大家詬病，現在我看到法務部提出了新的設計，叫做障礙事由，簡單來說就是說這個被害人在原本的申請期限快到之前的一年內，可能是因為和加害人有共同生活或照顧關係，或者是因為性侵造成嚴重創傷，或者是受到了威脅控制，就可以在第一次向警察或檢察官說出受害經過的一年內，再提出補償申請。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:27:43.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:27:58.647000+08:00","text":"我想我肯定這樣子的制度是有在前進，我也理解法務部這樣子設計出發點，但是因為兒少性侵案和一般犯罪還是非常不一樣，很多孩子不是有權利而不主張，而是在那個時間點還是沒有辦法說出來。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:27:59.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:28:07.114000+08:00","text":"所以我想請教就是法務部既然已經理解孩子有說不出來的難處，為什麼還要做這樣子的限制呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:28:08.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:28:16.279000+08:00","text":"孩子還是很難去說他因為當時可能被自己的家人性侵，所以他才沒有申請，他還是沒有辦法講出來，能力上面就是做不到嘛！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:28:17.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:28:20.722000+08:00","text":"我認為這樣子的設計還是太嚴苛了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:28:22.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:28:24.444000+08:00","text":"想要請教次長，是不是還可以做修正？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:28:24.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:28:31.828000+08:00","text":"第二個，如果法律只有列出這幾種障礙事由的時候，未來在審查上會不會變成另外一種高門檻？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-04-13T10:28:34.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:28:46.209000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的提醒，委員對於兒少性侵部分的保護，其實跟我們及法務部都是一樣。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-04-13T10:28:47.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:29:04.683000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，犯罪被害人保障法部分條文修正草案，現在因為進度上是做法案的預告，有一些意見我們都還可以調整。好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:29:06.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:29:22.230000+08:00","text":"在這件事情上面，我想民間有許多學者主張只要案件已經進入司法機關調查，或者檢察官已經起訴，就不應該再讓被害人因為時效而被排除在補償之外。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:29:23.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:29:36.179000+08:00","text":"這樣子的方向，我希望在這次預告蒐集完大家的意見之後，可以再去做更細緻地調整，讓兒少被害人他們補償權利不會被消失，可以嗎？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-04-13T10:29:36.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:29:41.062000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員調整，我們會儘速蒐集各界意見後，報行政院做完整的審查。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:29:42.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:29:51.129000+08:00","text":"最後一件事情是貪污治罪條例，接下來可能要請司法院。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:29:51.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:30:03.143000+08:00","text":"抱歉，法務部還不能走，請法務部加司法院兩個單位備詢。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:30:04.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:30:28.300000+08:00","text":"我們長期受重刑化的思維影響，容易把性質差異很大的案件放在同一個高刑度的框架處理，我想如果沒有足夠分流跟層次也可能違反比例原則，讓法律失去精細評價的能力，所以今天第十二條修法，重點就是針對金額比較低、情節也比較輕微的個案，是不是可以有一些調整的空間？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:30:28.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:30:30.140000+08:00","text":"而不是一律落入過重的刑法。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:30:30.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:30:40.165000+08:00","text":"法務部其實也有提到第十二條增訂免除其刑，除了減刑之外，在具體個案中可做免刑判決的條件。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:30:42.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:31:13.802000+08:00","text":"但是我今天想跟大家先討論一下沿革，過去在62年8月7號修正案，當時的條文是規定「第四條到第六條各款之罪，情節輕微，而其所得或所圖得財物在三千元之下者，適用有較輕處罰規定的刑法，所以當時的立法思考其實不是在貪污治罪條例裡面調整刑度……」而是認為某些非常小、非常輕微的案件可以回到一般處罰比較輕的法律來處理。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:31:14.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:31:29.731000+08:00","text":"可是看到81年6月30號修法，制度又改了，原本的3,000元被提高到新臺幣5萬塊，而且法律效果也從適用較輕處罰規定之刑罰或其他法律改成減輕其刑。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:31:30.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:31:48.256000+08:00","text":"也就是說，立法者當時只針對情節輕微、金額較低的案件，在貪污治罪條例的架構中保留了減刑空間，所以從法律沿革我們看到了兩件事情：第一個就是金額的門檻是立法政策選擇的結果，不是不能討論也不能檢討的數字。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:31:50.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:31:59.974000+08:00","text":"第二個，既然當年可以從3,000調整到5萬塊，就表示立法者本身就承認了小額案件的界限會隨著時代背景而需要重新設定。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:32:02.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:32:11.713000+08:00","text":"所以我想了解，我們可以看到過去的法律沿革，當初為什麼是5萬塊或2萬塊或3萬塊？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:32:11.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:32:21.762000+08:00","text":"其實我們看不到更明確的說明，請教法務部，針對多年5萬元的標準，你們有沒有重新檢討過是否合理，原因又是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-04-13T10:32:24.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:32:38.955000+08:00","text":"金額是不是提高，這部分會通盤檢討，並考量個人法律的情感去審查這部分是不是需要修正，事實上，5萬元到底是不是夠高了？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-04-13T10:32:39.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:32:41.597000+08:00","text":"這部分其實是一個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:32:41.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:32:42.177000+08:00","text":"對，非常不明確。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-04-13T10:32:42.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:32:47.079000+08:00","text":"非常判斷的問題，我們目前在這部分上還是以5萬塊來做判斷。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:32:49.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:32:53.806000+08:00","text":"我請教一下司法院，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:32:53.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:33:10.033000+08:00","text":"因為我想這一題，如果修法通過之後，最重要還是回到司法院，法院要做判決，但是大家都在談情節要怎麼評估其實非常抽象，法官在實務上要如何判斷情節輕微呢？","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:33:10.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:33:18.337000+08:00","text":"是只看金額，還是要看被告的職位、收受利益的態樣，還有對公務廉潔的損害是否反覆發生等等？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:33:18.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:33:29.461000+08:00","text":"所以我認為在法院的實務上面，你們會不會認為有要說得更清楚的地方呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許廳長辰舟","start":"2026-04-13T10:33:30.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:33:35.767000+08:00","text":"報告委員，關於貪污治罪條例第十二條的門檻金額到底要多少？","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"許廳長辰舟","start":"2026-04-13T10:33:37.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:33:55.898000+08:00","text":"就誠如剛剛次長所言，它是一個高度價值判斷的問題，至於依人民之社會通念如何才最為適當，這部分尊重大院之決定，在司法實務上即使沒有這樣的條文，其實我們也有實質違法性的理論來做具體的因應。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"許廳長辰舟","start":"2026-04-13T10:33:55.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:34:29.351000+08:00","text":"只不過關於實質違法性，在怎麼樣的狀況下屬於情節輕微，如同委員剛剛所提到，必須綜合考量各種因素，也涉及個別法官關於個案的情節以及審酌的情況不同而異，所以如果大院今天討論貪污治罪條例第十二條去訂出一個比較適當的門檻，讓法院統一適用，對於整個法律適用平等、一致性會有比較好的效果，以上報告。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:34:29.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:34:38.799000+08:00","text":"我想是不是我們要有一個比較清楚的立法理由，甚至提供實務適用的方向，才會讓在實務的判決上面有個比較清楚的依循呢？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"許廳長辰舟","start":"2026-04-13T10:34:40.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:35:00.659000+08:00","text":"這部分的立法理由是可以補充有關門檻的部分，但是我會建議如果是一個比較明確的門檻，有利於法官來適用是比較好的選擇，至於在具體的狀況，這部分再由法官來做量刑的衡酌。了解。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:35:01.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:35:11.607000+08:00","text":"我最後再總結一下，我想站在我們的立場上，反貪污是不能退的一件事情，是絕對要被捍衛的一件事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-13T10:35:12.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:35:42.928000+08:00","text":"根據聯合國反貪腐公約，真正有說服力的反貪法制也不是把所有的案件都用同樣嚴厲的方式來處理，而是讓重大的貪污要受到最嚴厲的譴責，同時也讓情節顯然比較輕微的案件有一個合理的區分，這樣子的話，民眾就可以看到法律不是變鬆，而是變得更穩、更準、更能夠服眾，也希望剛剛說的一些細節的部分，法務部也要再做審慎的處理，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T10:35:43.428000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:35:44.856571+08:00","text":"謝謝張委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T10:35:45.156571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:35:50.870857+08:00","text":"待會在羅智強委員詢答完畢之後，我們休息5分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T10:35:51.170857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:35:57.170857+08:00","text":"接下來請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T10:35:57.470857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:36:02.328000+08:00","text":"鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T10:36:02.628000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:36:04.342286+08:00","text":"請許宇甄委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}