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請李燕秀 李昭偉質詢謝謝主席 我是不是可以邀請陳淑珠 陳淑資主席長永陽行副總裁 法務部的張司長衛福部的林靜怡次長經濟部的賴次長 國發會的高副主委高副主委 請一併上台"},{"start":24.282,"end":43.688,"text":"大家好因為今天時間非常緊湊我們在最近針對聯合稽查的部分我們大規模的發動了好幾次的稽查目前稽查的結果其實很大的陣仗但是我們卻沒有任何一件涉嫌違法對不對幾乎都是合法的對不對稽查的結論"},{"start":51.028,"end":64.744,"text":"目前我們在稽查的情形裡面大概有兩件是有列入他治安在做偵辦的其餘的部分也有一些可能看起來是有異常情形也都在持續的釐清他的這個漲價的情形"},{"start":67.007,"end":72.43,"text":"目前看到的漲價狀況沒有異常囤積或不法的烘台情勢其他兩屆都還在調查當中物價上漲並不是聯合的壟斷而是我們現在國際原物料飆漲結構性的問題推升的一個結果"},{"start":87.461,"end":90.642,"text":"就是說現在的漲價都應該是輸入性通膨的問題就是說我們目前的結論就是漲價是真的但是沒有任何不法的狀況不是跟犯罪沒有關係我可以做這樣的結論嗎"},{"start":104.133,"end":118.813,"text":"根委員報告因為法務部我們主責的部份就是針對刑事的部份那有犯罪嫌疑的部份我清楚都在他站調查就是說漲價是真的但是這大致上都沒有囤積的事實那我們最近看到"},{"start":119.213,"end":126.397,"text":"到底漲了哪些東西包括現在近陣子大家討論到的塑膠袋之亂之外但現在漲價也進入了醫院根據醫院團的調查79%的醫院反映塑膠衣材的供貨上漲42%醫院訂貨受到了很大的影響包括我們大家都知道的次長"},{"start":141.105,"end":142.987,"text":"PVC的手套漲了35%到46%抽痰管漲了17%到24%導尿管漲了25%到21%氣管抽痰漲了21%細菌過濾器漲了10%到32%"},{"start":156.522,"end":163.404,"text":"超過一半的醫院都反映大量的這些狀況都訂貨42%的醫院訂貨受到影響29%的醫院庫存量也出現不足的狀況這個是整體目前漲價的狀況所以這不是夜市攤販買不到塑膠袋的問題"},{"start":178.408,"end":188.955,"text":"市長這不是買不到塑膠袋的問題這是現在醫院包括抽痰管跟保尿管手套都在漲價的問題這個漲價的狀況物價飆漲包括供貨有可能持續的惡化"},{"start":194.659,"end":218.953,"text":"也會影響到我們現在醫療院所業務維持的監控那包括後續我們更擔心的是醫療服務品質甚至會侵害到醫院病人就醫的權益這個是我們後續擔心的狀況當然我知道市長我們現在有四個具體的措施可以去做處理包括跨部會的協助供應通報還有支付標準的調整等狀況但是"},{"start":220.874,"end":235.275,"text":"我聽到很多醫療院所的陳情包括他們跟我溝通多數都不是缺貨的問題而是成本的飛漲這個成本的飛漲後續這就不是我們藥物平台可以去做處理的"},{"start":235.996,"end":247.682,"text":"那衛福部的剛才的書面報告我也讀到就是說你們有提到說可以申請調高相關的一些幾部的價格包括任性預算當中我們也編列了200億的安全準備金那我要請問次長我們目前有廠商提出申請嗎目前兩家"},{"start":255.686,"end":275.176,"text":"那他們拿出他們的成本的這個部分才能夠讓健保署這邊去做計算因為這個我想委員也很清楚長期在未還所以我們在健保給付的價格事實上要請廠商這邊拿出他們相關的成本價格然後重新來做討論市長但是我們知道我剛剛講這些狀況不會只有兩家會有成本的問題因為這個後面就是"},{"start":276.076,"end":294.358,"text":"醫院營運成本整個提高我跟您報告就是說第一個事情其實醫院這邊跟各家廠商多數如果是大型醫療院所他們在原先的供貨是有供貨的契約所以供貨的契約這邊他們不能自己去就是說自己去把它的成本做調整因為原來供貨的那個成本就有處理這是第一個事情"},{"start":294.878,"end":310.072,"text":"第二個事情我們現在其實在我們是從源頭端來做處理所以說我們也很感謝經濟部協助我們我們總共27家藥品跟醫材廠商有跟我們通報但是其中7家他們到今年年底都還有庫存的這個原料我要請教次長就是說我們後面會不會開會討論支付的標準要調整"},{"start":315.237,"end":329.97,"text":"成本提高了這個部分我們在支付標準的部分兩個事情第一個事情是因為如果醫院本身跟他的這個醫材或藥品廠商簽的約他簽了約那時候他的原來供給的那個價格其實他成本上面事實上回到的是廠商這裡不是醫院這裡"},{"start":332.172,"end":351.699,"text":"廠商成本提高他可能也會跟醫院溝通得好所以跟您報告說我們的方向事實上現在是請經濟部協助就是讓他的供貨這邊從供貨成本來做處理避免廠商這邊因為我們去調健保價事實上是醫院這邊可是健保價他的給付我們給付健保價對醫院來講他的成本他原先跟廠商這邊簽的約他影響不在這邊我再請問一個問題市長我們會比照輸益的方式處理嗎"},{"start":357.941,"end":376.52,"text":"所以現在是缺貨缺貨的時候我們是用專案進口全面我們自己來處理那你會編列專案的預算來去做後續的處理嗎委員現在全世界它都是在這個塑膠的原料的部分我知道這是世界性的問題但是在廠商這邊或者是在醫院端這邊我們會不會有專案的方式來協助我們現在就是說如果在"},{"start":376.84,"end":393.371,"text":"真的他就因為他的這個成本影響到他這個健保給付價格那就剛剛像剛剛跟委員報告的我們走健保的這個溢價的程序他回到我們供你會來做處理那如果有需求我們立法供你會就來開但是廠方這邊要那個成本的資料給我們那你錢從哪裡來就是那兩百億"},{"start":396.611,"end":412.808,"text":"兩百億 那個準備金如果兩百億準備金不夠的話呢我們現在估起來會夠因為估起來寬估跟窄估大概都在幾十億而已好 但是我們還是希望是說因為健保價的調整它影響很大我希望這個是短期的對 所以我們要做各式各樣model的"},{"start":414.21,"end":432.169,"text":"我們會從前端原料端來做處理那接下來我就要請問一下就是說在這段時間無論是塑膠袋的缺貨或相關的一些塑膠製品的缺貨這個差價我知道衛福部之前有請經濟部協調大型石化廠優先供應國人醫療所需"},{"start":434.011,"end":444.156,"text":"所以當時中油的專案提供了5000噸的平價乙烯那這個5000噸的平價乙烯這個價格是由誰吸收?中油吸收了嗎?"},{"start":445.663,"end":466.124,"text":"這個是由我們中油公司來協調包括它下油供應商台塑公司一起來讓這個所謂的不管是進料的價格或是出料的這個價格的部分維持一個平穩我知道 那這個價格是誰吸收 因為中間有差價嘛沒有嗎 還是你直接叫廠商就是一定要給你平價 不可能吧"},{"start":466.984,"end":486.457,"text":"中油供給台塑的生產塑膠力的售價部分就是平穩的專案平穩的一個措施這個價格的部分不會像外面坊間叫價你要漲到50%或是多少%以上"},{"start":488.059,"end":508.881,"text":"你跟台塑是用什麼樣的價格?跟過去一樣的價格嗎?這五千噸的平價乙烯,因為你叫平價乙烯,你是用什麼樣的價格?跟過去價格一樣嗎?他們現在已經有簽訂一個合約了我要問的就是,這個價格跟過去不一樣嘛,因為都在缺貨嘛所以這個價格是誰吸收了?"},{"start":509.603,"end":536.214,"text":"市長跟委員報告就是這個五千噸是一個專案的評價的專案那輸送的對象就是給台塑那我們給他以息這個產品那價格的部分的話呢就是評價所以在價格的部分有做一些特別的考慮那麼雙方互相吸收是他退一些你退一些但是還是有差距誰吸收中油吸收還是跟過去的價格一樣"},{"start":538.223,"end":556.993,"text":"現在乙烯的價格都比戰前要漲嘛我知道漲嘛那是它漲嘛所以差個這個部分是誰吸收因為你提供給五千噸的平價乙烯給所有的廠商嘛來解決我們現在價格是誰吸收 差價沒有它去做那個塑膠粒的部分它不漲啊"},{"start":565.845,"end":570.069,"text":"沒關係 我接下來問通膨的問題我想問一下經濟部跟國發會就是說剛剛中國董事長也說過了就是說我們目前油價要三到六個月才恢復中東的局勢談談停停 談談停停我們當然希望短期能夠恢復但這都不是我們能夠掌握的"},{"start":586.502,"end":608.618,"text":"那但是主席長我也要提醒主席長剛剛好幾位委員問說這個到底通膨1.8合不合理我們當然希望是維持在二底下但是很多東西一漲上去就回不來了我從來沒有聽到滷肉飯或那個大腸麵線一碗漲上去五塊之後就因為油價平衡不打漲又再回歸回來所以他外資會要高一點 外資會"},{"start":610.8,"end":626.05,"text":"外食會是比較高一點所以很多東西是漲上去就回不來了嘛但是水果蔬菜都回來了這個我知道但是在民眾普遍的感受上就是很多東西漲上去回不來我們薪水不可能因為油價關係什麼都漲我們也跟老闆講說我們要漲薪水嘛"},{"start":629.833,"end":632.615,"text":"所以我們現在用幾個工具包括我們現在調整貨物稅或者油電目前的動漲我們國發會的中長期政策到底還有沒有其他的工具"},{"start":648.726,"end":664.671,"text":"因為九月份之後我不知道我們還會不會持續的動漲這個當然是政府的決定我也都尊重但是我們還有什麼其他的工具去處理抑制通膨的問題如果是持續的油價一直漲中東局勢沒有短時間獲得解決的話後續怎麼做處理"},{"start":667.392,"end":691.665,"text":"我們研判目前的全球燃油市場如果不是中東戰爭的話是功過於求包括美國已經成為燃油的主要出口國所以我們認為中東這個戰爭應該是一個一段時間短期性的所以我們現在的措施基本上就像委員所說的如果一旦物價有僵固性一旦漲上去就很難回來所以我們現在短期的策略就是"},{"start":693.626,"end":717.918,"text":"你們現在都預估它是短期性的沒有人知道我們都希望它是短期的但是沒有人會預估我們都不知道下一刻會發生什麼事情所以我覺得你目前還是沒有回應到我們希望看到政府有各式各樣因應的措施而且很多東西3到6個月包括董事長也回應說能源的供應鏈需要3到6個月才能夠回復"},{"start":719.359,"end":737.455,"text":"如果到第二季末的時候中東局勢還沒有獲得解決的話那到三到六個月再往上加三到六個月才能回復那就到年底囉就台灣來說我們如果說影響油價的話一個是我們大宗商品跟石油跟天然氣是依靠進口的那這個是會由國際市場來決定"},{"start":739.817,"end":744.521,"text":"我們目前除了油電停漲之外我們還有貨物稅目前支援50%包括像韓國有發油價的支援金等等我的問題是我們中長期還有什麼樣的手段"},{"start":762.077,"end":788.315,"text":"就是控制我們CPI維持在這樣1.8或者2.0以下我想外在的國際的原油油氣跟大宗商品不是我們可以過程由國際市場來決定那我們基本上我們會不包括用央行的貨幣政策或者是我們的一些關稅的減免的相關措施我們儘量可以用我們的政策工具把外在的這些價格的阻斷在可以減輕對國內的"},{"start":790.256,"end":816.212,"text":"對 那至於國內的話我覺得影響比較大的是我們的譬如說蔬菜還有一些水果或者是一些我們一些農產品的價格那我想農業部也會有相關的這些產銷工具你還是沒有回答到我主要的問題你還是沒有回答到我的問題這些工具我都清楚還有什麼樣特別的手段來中長期來去做處理譬如說韓國它發油價的支援金等等我們現在說我們用凍漲"},{"start":817.573,"end":836.973,"text":"韓國是用油價的支援金那我們第二季第三季如果狀況不好通膨又一直往上的話你有什麼樣特別的手段其實你們要講清楚其實動漲其實剛剛的動漲是由國營事業來吸收政府預算來撥補跟韓國他直接補貼到民眾其實是異曲同工只是用不同的"},{"start":837.073,"end":861.577,"text":"所以我才問說那有沒有可能如果九月份我們如果要讓他講的話那會不會用類似像油價資源金來去做後續的取代式我想聽到你做不同的答覆我想我們到時候會再考慮大概兩者的措施哪一個利弊得失對台灣的經濟是比較好的所以不排除類似像韓國的油價資源金等等也可以是考慮的範圍我一直覺得我們台灣應該不會到需要用韓國的"},{"start":864.978,"end":872.343,"text":"當然希望情勢不要那麼糟糕但是我覺得各式各樣手段我覺得政府都應該做好積極的準備以上是我今天的質詢 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:08:14.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:08:28.581000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我是不是可以邀請陳淑姿主計長、央行副總裁、法務部的張司長、衛福部的林靜儀次長、經濟部的賴次長、國發會的高副主委？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T11:08:29.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:08:30.082000+08:00","text":"請陳主計長、副總裁、張司長、林次長、高副主委，請一併上台。","quality":0.348},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-04-13T11:08:30.082000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:08:32.282000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:08:32.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:08:32.542000+08:00","text":"大家好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:08:33.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:08:49.448000+08:00","text":"因為今天時間非常緊湊，針對我們最近聯合稽查的部分，我們大規模發動了好幾次稽查，目前稽查的結果，其實陣仗很大，但是卻沒有任何一件涉嫌違法，對不對？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:08:49.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:08:51.508000+08:00","text":"幾乎都是合法的，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:08:51.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:08:51.688000+08:00","text":"稽查的結論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張司長曉雯","start":"2026-04-13T11:08:59.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:09:12.724000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，目前我們稽查的情形，大概有兩件有列入他字案在偵辦，其餘的部分也有一些可能看起來是有異常的情形，也都在持續的釐清漲價的情形。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:09:15.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:09:20.410000+08:00","text":"也就是說目前看到的漲價狀況沒有異常囤積或不法的哄抬情事，其他兩件都還在調查當中，這就是說物價上漲並不是聯合的壟斷，而是現在國際原物料飆漲的結構性成本推升的結果。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:09:35.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:09:35.701000+08:00","text":"就是說現在的飆漲，不要說飆漲，就是說漲價都應該是輸入性通膨的問題。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:09:35.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:09:38.642000+08:00","text":"換言之，我們目前的結論就是漲價是真的，但是沒有任何不法的狀況，跟犯罪沒有關係，我可以做這樣的結論嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張司長曉雯","start":"2026-04-13T11:09:52.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:09:57.721000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為我們法務部主責的就是刑事的部分，有犯罪嫌疑的部分我們才會進行調查。","quality":0.658},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:09:57.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:10:05.932000+08:00","text":"我清楚，對，都在他字案調查，就是說漲價是真的，但是大致上都沒有囤積的事實。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:10:06.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:10:11.215000+08:00","text":"我們看最近到底漲了哪些東西，包括前一陣子大家討論的塑膠袋之亂外，現在漲價也進入了醫院。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:10:11.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:10:13.337000+08:00","text":"根據醫院團體調查，79%的醫院反映塑膠醫材的價格上漲；42%的醫院訂貨受到很大的影響。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:10:13.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:10:30.987000+08:00","text":"包括我們大家都知道的，次長，PVC手套漲了35%到46%；抽痰管漲了17%到24%；導尿管漲了21%到25%；氣管抽吸導管漲了21%；細菌過濾器漲了10%到32%。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:10:44.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:10:50.464000+08:00","text":"超過一半的醫院都反映有這些狀況，42%的醫院訂貨受到影響，29%的醫院庫存量也出現不足的狀況。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:10:50.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:11:16.375000+08:00","text":"這是目前漲價的狀況，所以這不是夜市攤販買不到塑膠袋的問題，次長，這不是買不到塑膠袋的問題，這是現在醫院，包括抽痰管、導尿管跟手套都在漲價的問題。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:11:16.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:11:38.228000+08:00","text":"這個漲價的狀況，物價飆漲，包括供貨有可能持續的惡化，也會影響到我們現在醫療院所業務維持的情況，包括後續我們更擔心的是醫療服務品質，甚至會侵害到病人就醫的權益，這個是我們後續擔心的狀況。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:11:38.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:11:46.713000+08:00","text":"當然，我知道，次長，我們現在有四個具體措施可以去處理，包括跨部會協作、供應通報、支付標準調整以及嚴查哄抬等等。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:11:46.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:12:03.255000+08:00","text":"但是，我聽到很多醫療院所的陳情，包括他們跟我溝通，多數都不是缺貨的問題而是成本的飛漲，成本飛漲的後續，這就不是我們藥物平臺可以去做處理的。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:12:04.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:12:15.562000+08:00","text":"衛福部剛才的書面報告我也有讀到，你們有提到可以申請調高相關的一些給付的價格，包括韌性預算當中，我們也編列了200億的安全準備金，那我要請問次長，我們目前有廠商提出申請嗎？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-04-13T11:12:15.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:12:23.686000+08:00","text":"目前有兩家，那我們正在……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:12:23.686000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:12:24.727000+08:00","text":"目前只有兩家？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-04-13T11:12:24.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:12:37.533000+08:00","text":"請他們拿出他們成本這個部分，才能夠讓健保署這邊去做計算，因為這個我想委員也很清楚，長期在衛環，所以我們在健保給付的價格，事實上要請廠商這邊拿出他們相關的成本價格，然後重新來做討論。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:12:37.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:12:45.498000+08:00","text":"次長，但是我們知道，我剛剛講的這些狀況，不會只有兩家會有成本的問題，因為這個後面就是醫院營運成本整個提高，健保……","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀：委員，我跟您報告","start":"2026-04-13T11:12:46.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:13:02.338000+08:00","text":"第一個事情，其實醫院這邊跟各家廠商多數，如果是大型醫療院所，他們原先的供貨是有供貨的契約，所以供貨契約這部分他們不能自己去……就是說自己去把他的成本做調整，因為原來供貨的那個成本就有處理，這是第一個事情。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀：委員，我跟您報告","start":"2026-04-13T11:13:02.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:13:16.811000+08:00","text":"第二個事情，我們現在其實是從源頭端來做處理，所以我們也很感謝經濟部協助我們，總共有27家藥品跟醫材廠商有跟我們通報，但是其中7家他們到今年年底都還有庫存的原料……","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:13:16.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:13:24.038000+08:00","text":"好，那我要請教次長的就是，我們後面會不會開會討論要調整支付標準，畢竟成本提高了。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-04-13T11:13:24.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:13:37.970000+08:00","text":"我們在支付標準的部分兩個事情，第一個事情是因為如果醫院本身跟他的醫材或藥品廠商簽的約，他簽了約，那時候他原來供給的那個價格，其實他成本上面，事實上回到的是廠商這裡，不是醫院這裡，所以我想委員曉得……","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:13:40.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:13:42.773000+08:00","text":"廠商成本提高，他可能也會跟醫院溝通嘛。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-04-13T11:13:43.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:13:58.818000+08:00","text":"對，所以跟您報告，我們的方向事實上現在是請經濟部協助讓他的供貨這邊，從供貨成本來做處理，避免廠商這邊，因為我們去調健保價，事實上是醫院這邊，可是健保價他的給付，我們給付的健保價對醫院來講他的成本，他原先跟廠商這邊簽的約，他影響不在這邊，所以事實上我們現在處理的是前端……","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:13:58.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:13:59.699000+08:00","text":"我再請問一個問題，次長，我們會比照輸液的方式處理嗎？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:06.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:10.125000+08:00","text":"輸液是缺貨，缺貨的時候我們是用專案進口全面我們自己來處理……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:10.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:12.788000+08:00","text":"那你會編列專案的預算去做後續的處理嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:12.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:16.472000+08:00","text":"沒有，委員，現在全世界在塑膠原料的部分，全世界都缺，所以……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:16.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:23.519000+08:00","text":"我知道，這是世界性的問題，但是在廠商這邊或者是在醫院端這邊，我們會不會有專案的方式來協助做……","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:23.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:40.830000+08:00","text":"我們現在就是說，如果真的因為他的成本影響到他健保給付價格，那就像剛剛跟委員報告的，我們走健保的議價的程序，他要回到我們共擬會來做處理，如果有需求，我們另外就來開共擬會，但是廠商這邊要給我們成本的資料，那我們……","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:40.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:41.190000+08:00","text":"那你錢從哪裡來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:41.190000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:42.190000+08:00","text":"如果大家都有這個需……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:41.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:45.472000+08:00","text":"就是那200億，200億那個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:45.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:45.692000+08:00","text":"200億準備金……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:45.692000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:46.692000+08:00","text":"對，那我們其實……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:46.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:47.634000+08:00","text":"如果200億準備金不夠的話呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:47.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:52.740000+08:00","text":"我們現在估起來會夠，因為粗估起來，寬估跟窄估大概都在幾十億而已。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:54.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:57.485000+08:00","text":"但是我們還是希望，因為健保價的調整影響很大……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:57.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:58.806000+08:00","text":"我希望這個是短期的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:59.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:59.927000+08:00","text":"對，所以我們從前端……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:59.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:15:00.788000+08:00","text":"但是我覺得我們政府要做各式各樣model的準備，萬一……","quality":0.48},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-04-13T11:15:02.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:15:05.734000+08:00","text":"我們會從前端原料端來做處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:15:05.734000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:15:06.734000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，謝謝次長你的回應。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:15:06.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:15:32.156000+08:00","text":"那接下來我就要請問一下，在這一段時間，無論是塑膠袋的缺貨或相關的一些塑膠製品的缺貨，這個差價，我知道衛福部之前有請經濟部協調大型石化廠優先供應國人醫療所需，所以當時中油的專案提供了5,000噸的平價乙烯，這5,000噸的平價乙烯，這個差價是由誰吸收，中油吸收的嗎？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-13T11:15:33.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:15:46.796000+08:00","text":"這是由我們中油公司來協調，包括他下游供應商台塑公司，一起來讓不管是進料的價格或是出料的價格部分維持平穩。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:15:46.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:15:48.678000+08:00","text":"我知道，那這個差價是誰吸收？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:15:48.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:15:51.381000+08:00","text":"因為中間有差價嘛，沒有嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:15:51.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:15:54.104000+08:00","text":"還是你直接叫廠商一定要給你平價，不可能吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-13T11:15:54.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:16:01.669000+08:00","text":"中油供給台塑的，他生產塑膠粒的售價部分就是平穩的、就是專案的平穩措施。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:02.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:16:03.890000+08:00","text":"專案平穩？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:06.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:16:14.437000+08:00","text":"對，價格的部分不會像外面坊間叫價要漲到50%或是多少百分比以上，這個部分……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:16.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:16:19.963000+08:00","text":"你跟台塑是用什麼樣的價，跟過去一樣的價格嗎？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:19.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:16:25.729000+08:00","text":"這5,000噸的平價乙烯，因為你稱為平價乙烯，你是用什麼樣的價格，跟過去的價格一樣嗎？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:25.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:16:28.672000+08:00","text":"他們現在已經有簽訂一個合約了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:29.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:16:36.861000+08:00","text":"我要問的就是，這個價格跟過去應該不一樣，因為都在缺貨嘛，所以這個價格是誰吸收了？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:37.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:16:57.911000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，就是這5,000噸是一個平價的專案，輸送的對象就是給台塑，我們給他乙烯這個產品，那價格的部分就是平價，所以在價格的部分有做一些特別的考慮，雙方互相吸收……","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:57.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:16:59.412000+08:00","text":"是他退一些、你退一些……","quality":1},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:59.412000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:00.412000+08:00","text":"是、是、是，大概是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:59.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:01.032000+08:00","text":"但是還是有差距，誰吸收？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:01.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:04.214000+08:00","text":"中油吸收還是跟過去的價格一樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:06.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:09.105000+08:00","text":"現在乙烯的價格都比戰前要漲嘛……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:09.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:14.427000+08:00","text":"我知道漲嘛，那是它漲嘛，所以差價這個部分是誰吸收？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:15.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:23.672000+08:00","text":"因為你提供5,000噸的平價乙烯給所有的廠商來解決上漲問題，那現在價格是誰吸收？差價。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:23.672000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:24.672000+08:00","text":"它也不漲。就是……沒有？","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:24.672000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:25.672000+08:00","text":"它也不漲。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"方董事長振仁","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:24.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:24.973000+08:00","text":"它去做塑膠粒的部分，它也不漲啊。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:33.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:34.906000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，我接下來問通膨的問題，我想問一下經濟部跟國發會。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:35.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:38.049000+08:00","text":"剛剛中油董事長也說過了，我們目前的油價要三到六個月才恢復，中東的局勢談談停停、談談停停，我們當然希望短期能夠恢復，但這都不是我們能夠掌握的。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:54.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:18:15.298000+08:00","text":"但是，主計長，我也要提醒主計長，剛剛好幾位委員問說，到底通膨1.8%合不合理，我們當然希望是維持在2%以下，但是很多東西一漲上去就回不來了，我從來沒有聽到滷肉飯或大腸麵線一碗漲上去5塊之後，因為油價平衡、不打仗又再回歸回來。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-04-13T11:18:18.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:18:20.942000+08:00","text":"外食費比較高一點。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:18:20.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:18:23.203000+08:00","text":"所以很多東西是漲上去就回不來了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-04-13T11:18:23.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:18:25.705000+08:00","text":"但是水果、蔬菜都回來了，還有雞蛋都回來了。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:18:26.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:18:40.595000+08:00","text":"這個我知道，但是在民眾普遍的感受上是很多東西漲上去就回不來，而我們的薪水就不可能，因為油價的關係什麼都漲，我們也跟老闆講說我們要漲薪水嘛，所以我覺得，因為我們現在用幾個工具，包括現在的貨物稅，調整貨物稅或者油電目前的凍漲，那中長期的部分，我們國發會中長期的政策到底還有沒有什麼其他的工具？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:18:56.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:19:07.710000+08:00","text":"因為9月份之後，我不知道我們還會不會持續凍漲，這個當然是政府的決定，我也都尊重，但是我們還有什麼其他的工具去處理、抑制通膨的問題？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:19:07.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:19:12.651000+08:00","text":"如果是油價一直持續的漲，中東局勢短時間沒有獲得解決的話，後續怎麼做處理？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"高副主任委員仙桂","start":"2026-04-13T11:19:15.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:19:39.645000+08:00","text":"我們研判目前全球原油市場，如果不是發生中東戰爭的話是供過於求，包括美國已經成為頁岩油的主要出口國，所以我們認為中東這個戰爭應該是一個一段時間、短期性的，因此我們現在的措施基本上就像委員所說的，如果一旦物價有僵固性，一旦漲上去就很難回來，所以我們現在短期的策略就是……","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:19:41.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:20:15.587000+08:00","text":"副主委，你們現在都預估它是短期性的，但沒有人知道，當然我們都希望它是短期的，但是沒有人會預估……我們都不知道下一刻會發生什麼事情，所以我覺得你目前還是沒有回應到，我們希望看到政府有各式各樣因應的措施，而且很多東西要三到六個月，包括董事長也回應說能源供應鏈需要三到六個月才能夠回復，如果到第二季末的時候，中東局勢還沒有獲得解決的話，那三到六個月再往上加三到六個月才能回復，那就到年底了？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"高副主任委員仙桂","start":"2026-04-13T11:20:17.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:20:27.977000+08:00","text":"就臺灣來說，如果說受油價影響的話，包括我們大宗商品、石油跟天然氣是依靠進口的，這個會由國際市場來決定，那我們……","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:20:27.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:20:55.101000+08:00","text":"副主委，我剛剛講的是，目前除了油電停漲之外，還有貨物稅目前減50%，包括像韓國有發油價的支援金等等，那我們後續中長期的部分，我的問題是，我們中長期還有什麼樣的手段去控制CPI維持在1.8%或者2.0%以下？","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"高副主任委員仙桂","start":"2026-04-13T11:20:55.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:21:16.295000+08:00","text":"我想外在的國際原油、油氣跟大宗商品，不是我們而是由國際市場來決定，基本上，我們不包括用央行的貨幣政策或者是一些關稅減免的相關措施，我們儘量可以用我們的政策工具，把外在的這些價格阻斷在可以減輕對國內的衝擊。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"高副主任委員仙桂","start":"2026-04-13T11:21:18.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:21:31.144000+08:00","text":"至於國內的話，我覺得影響比較大的比如說蔬菜、水果或者是一些農產品的價格，我想農業部也會有相關的產銷工具。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:21:33.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:21:39.910000+08:00","text":"你還是沒有回答到我的問題，這些工具我都清楚，還有什麼樣特別的手段就中長期的部分來去做處理？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:21:40.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:21:52.540000+08:00","text":"比如說韓國發油價的支援金等等，我們現在是用凍漲，韓國是用油價的支援金，那我們第二季、第三季如果狀況不好，通膨又一直往上的話，你有什麼特別的手段？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:21:53.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:21:53.822000+08:00","text":"我覺得你們要想清楚。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"高副主任委員仙桂","start":"2026-04-13T11:21:55.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:22:04.953000+08:00","text":"剛剛提的凍漲是由國營事業來吸收、政府的預算來撥補，跟韓國直接補貼到民眾其實是異曲同工，只是用不同的途徑。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:22:05.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:22:14.055000+08:00","text":"我知道，所以我才問說，有沒有可能，如果9月份我們要讓它漲的話，我們會不會用類似像油價支援金去做後續的取代？","quality":0.809},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:22:14.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:22:16.535000+08:00","text":"我想聽到你做不同的答復。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"高副主任委員仙桂","start":"2026-04-13T11:22:17.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:22:23.896000+08:00","text":"我想我們到時候會再考慮，看兩者的措施哪一個利弊得失對臺灣的經濟是比較好的。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:22:23.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:22:28.837000+08:00","text":"所以不排除類似像韓國的油價支援金等等，這也可以是考慮的範圍？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"高副主任委員仙桂","start":"2026-04-13T11:22:28.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:22:29.557000+08:00","text":"我一直覺得我們臺灣應該不會到需要用韓國的補貼措施。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-04-13T11:22:32.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:22:40.343000+08:00","text":"我當然希望情勢不要那麼糟糕，但是我覺得各式各樣的手段，政府都應該做好積極的準備，以上是我今天的質詢，謝謝。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"高副主任委員仙桂","start":"2026-04-13T11:22:40.843000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:22:42.271571+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（李委員彥秀）","start":"2026-04-13T11:22:42.571571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:22:45.143000+08:00","text":"接下來請羅明才委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}