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站在"},{"start":115.256,"end":134.023,"text":"法務部當然講我那立場打擊犯罪有時候我們認為常常就是除惡勿近但是法律這一套邏輯裡面又有法的安定性的一個問題我不曉得司法院你們的看法是怎麼樣你說這個法律有時候未成年人未成年人"},{"start":136.95,"end":162.877,"text":"或者說甚至於是兒少發生了這樣的一個性侵案件我們從衛護部也好從監察院也好這樣的一個統計的一個報告裡面監察院調查裡面76%加害者是詮釋上不對等啦不管是詮釋不對等或者是未成年人那衛護部剛剛統計是說性侵被害人一半是未成年人喔那以這樣來看的話這個對被害人來講的話"},{"start":164.517,"end":181.678,"text":"你這個時效,有一天我想告的時候,這個對被案人來講法律的規定,它太晚了,時間上它太晚了。可是有時候這個又不是它太晚的問題,是你這個制度又太早把它給關門了。我不曉得,廳長你的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":183.044,"end":206.589,"text":"追溯權失效本身是要去平衡犯罪訴罪的要求國家刑法權的行使以及法律安定性這些衝突的利益如何去權衡的一個機制以未成年的性侵害被害人來講他會有幾個特徵跟一般的狀況可能不太一樣比如說他身心發展未成熟他可能受制於權力不對等"},{"start":208.149,"end":233.249,"text":"那所以說在他法律追逐權時效開始進行的時候他當下或是在一段的期間裡面法律有賦予他去告訴的這個機會或揭發這個犯罪的機會但是他事實上卻無法行使那以這個事實上的基礎來做立法權衡那我相信今天行政院跟司法院已經有一個會選版的草案"},{"start":233.709,"end":251.244,"text":"那今天委員總共提了29條的29案的這個草案那都是本於這樣的一個事實來做一個立法的規劃那我覺得依照這個事實基礎來做適當的制度權我相信這是一個合理而且可以期待的一個做法您也覺得合理"},{"start":251.744,"end":270.112,"text":"其實時效一般在講說時間經過了以後法律久了以後要讓他給安定性可是因為時間經過你如果沒有去做區分的話有的是基於權勢不對等有的是因為他還是小孩來不及告等到哪一天他長大了他要告的時候法律跟你說不好意思太晚了關門了"},{"start":272.23,"end":280.503,"text":"又有這樣的一個問題就變成整個正義的一個追求我們又覺得好奇怪所以我看廳長這邊的意識跟衛務部這邊的意識也認為說確實這個追溯權的一個時效是可以去做調整的"},{"start":286.943,"end":312.114,"text":"這部分是屬於立法形成的空間那當然要問問你們的意見 我也說沒有要立法形成現在就大家陷入 大家討論的都是幾位法律安定性啊然後跟整個被害者正義之間的一個平衡啊但是那個平衡 你如果講法律安定性沒有去做區分的話那個安定性只在講時間而已啊他沒有去區分說 權勢到底是不是不對等"},{"start":313.094,"end":332.08,"text":"這個個案裡面權勢是不是不對等然後被害人到底他是不是小孩子他整個心智的成熟方面來講的話那只因為時間經過了那基於法的安定性時效消滅檢察官只能不起訴處分哪怕你起訴了到法院去一樣不受理"},{"start":333.254,"end":360.393,"text":"會有這樣的問題啊是 兒少他這個身心發展未成熟那以及他可能跟大人之間因為年齡的差距跟實力的差距或是其他的關係他處於權力不對我相信這是大部這個幾乎是兒少的心情悲哀可能共同有的這個論述大家都知道了我說你們態度啦態度我們是肯定這樣的一個形成因為如果給他的時間他沒有辦法行駛那這個時間等於就是沒有給他的意思OK 阿哥很好 阿次長"},{"start":361.113,"end":383.491,"text":"那差不多要倒夢倒回來之後 這個修法裡面你們淘寶部的態度我們也是認為說跟大部分委員還有這樣我們司法院這邊的意見都是一樣肯定說我們這個未成年人遭到性侵害的部分上追溯權應該是讓他成年就20歲以後再開始所以這件事就是在向社會宣告這件事你不可以做"},{"start":384.972,"end":404.209,"text":"尤其是涉及到整個性侵的尤其是對這些未成年人的涉及到權勢不對等的哪怕有一天時效就已經經過了十年了經過了二十年了真不好意思因為當初權勢不對等可能你的下屬他不敢去跟你舉發小孩子因為心智不成熟他還沒有長大這樣我們就延長"},{"start":406.351,"end":416.419,"text":"所以這個其實是社會上有共識的你意思也是這樣嗎好 那我簡單在另外進入 那個衛務部請回那兩位先留著一下就是說我們這個小兒貪汙這個 我覺得今天是阿仲頭戲啦大案"},{"start":422.401,"end":442.417,"text":"涉及到整個結構性的一個問題啦有時候你說幾百塊、幾千塊、一萬塊那貪污罪名是很重法重但是很多就是情輕的一個問題啦那個確實是值得去做差別的一個待遇啦其實我到本席一直認為這個修法"},{"start":444.659,"end":465.486,"text":"不是什麼放寬的問題啦是在講行為人的責任跟他不法的一個內涵有沒有符合比例原則啦貪汙 命很難聽啊違背職務的行為那當然可惡啊 殺啊但是跟不違背職務的行為或者是金額很小有時候常常金額 你去跟那個證交法"},{"start":466.38,"end":492.81,"text":"那個規定金額本身就涵蓋了整個不法的一個內涵在裡面所以我是認為今天基於說整個清潔輕微的部分提出這樣的一個修法社會上其實本來就是可以來做討論但是我們也很怕誤解其實這一次的一個修法裡面你說犯第四條到第六條之罪其實它一樣就有13種不同的一個類型"},{"start":494.285,"end":508.875,"text":"這個過程要見還要加上情節輕微還有所得不法利益是在五萬元以下不是說不法利益五萬元以下這兩個很減輕免除其刑這個社會有時候常常會造成一個誤解啦也就是說你真正你要去減輕的話很抱歉喔也要通過法官那一關說情節它本身是輕微的就是它的動機啦危險性啦犯刑的強度啦外在的壓力啦"},{"start":524.265,"end":548.053,"text":"倒不是只有單純從整個財產所得的一個金額的一個大小所以這個方向喔 這個方向 我不曉得司法院跟法務部這個地方 你們簡單來做一個回應這樣三檔大家在這裡說的時候喔 比較不肖貼大家在那裡 沒來沒去啦 你知不知道 次長你的態度跟委員講 委員講的我們都很贊成 事實上"},{"start":548.693,"end":570.32,"text":"條文的這個部分四到六條他必須要這個情節輕微還要加上說所得個人不正利益在五萬元以下他不是說一旦到五萬元以下就一定是這樣子他要給法院再有一個比例原則的一個判斷我們也很怕社會上誤解說我們在貪污這件事情上竟然是放寬了就是說貪五萬塊錢沒事這樣我們不是這樣的一個意思"},{"start":570.7,"end":588.939,"text":"其實無論是法務部我還有我們還有各委員的意思都不是這樣子都是希望說在綜合評量上真正是有情節輕微然後又是五萬塊以下的我們才會有這樣的一個讓法官有一個多的一個判決的一個良心的一個上面的一個這樣的一個判斷"},{"start":590.4,"end":614.421,"text":"這樣講就很清楚了,你比如說我舉例啊,三萬塊好了,可是你收了三萬塊,你這個是違背職務的一個行為啊,法官可能會,旁邊的廳長可能會認為說,你這可惡啊,雖然是三萬塊,你就是違背職務,然後你這個不法內涵很高,你這個對於整個行為人的一個責任,然後分析整個綜合來判斷的話,雖然是三萬塊啊,還有可能是重判啊,廳長不是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":616.874,"end":635.033,"text":"就是剛剛我們在討論的這個問題基本上就是如何讓法官的裁量空間可以符合罪行相當怎麼樣定才是適當這樣的一個問題那其實判處制度條例四到六條它本來就是一個特別法它的量刑本來就是從重"},{"start":635.914,"end":654.742,"text":"那12條他不是說直接檢或免他是讓法官審酌他的情節是不是輕微審酌他所圖得的利益綜合來考慮要不要檢或免那檢的話因為這條條文同時已經增加了免除期刑這樣的規定依照刑法66條可以檢至剩下三分之一"},{"start":655.462,"end":679.57,"text":"那甚至他也可以再搭配59條再做減刑所以他基本上他是讓法官可以有裁量的空間那把他定清楚會比目前使用實質違法性這樣一個理論他能夠會有一個更一致的一個裁量的標準那這個對於整個罪行相當的這個理論的落實在實務上落實是有幫助的好 謝謝那今天就是綜合整個幾個版本的問題啦好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:08:56.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:08:56.731000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:08:56.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:08:58.851000+08:00","text":"有請法務部馮次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T11:08:58.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:09:01.152000+08:00","text":"有請馮次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:09:01.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:09:04.413000+08:00","text":"還有司法院刑事廳許廳長。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T11:09:04.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:09:07.893000+08:00","text":"請許廳長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:09:07.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:09:12.154000+08:00","text":"也請衛福部保護服務司的張副司長。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T11:09:12.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:09:13.575000+08:00","text":"有請張副司長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:09:15.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:09:22.337000+08:00","text":"我想請教三位有關兒少性侵追訴權的問題。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:09:23.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:09:36.489000+08:00","text":"追訴權的時效大家很清楚，其實就是要讓整個法律具有安定性，但是又涉及被害人正義的問題。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:09:36.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:10:07.972000+08:00","text":"我先請教衛福部張副司長，對於兒少性侵追訴權時效的部分，以現在的法制來看的話，你們會不會覺得，好像在這樣的規定裡面跟現在頻繁發生的案件，因為性侵的案件常常兒少未成年人占的是最多，你們又會不會認為以現行的制度來看，有延長的必要？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:10:08.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:10:21.963000+08:00","text":"或者時效先讓它停止，相關的設計當然可以討論，你們看現在的規定有沒有辦法來銜接得上社會上發生的這一些案件的統計數量？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"張副司長靜倫","start":"2026-04-13T11:10:23.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:10:32.312000+08:00","text":"站在衛福部跟保護被害人的立場，我們當然是希望追訴權這個部分能夠做調整，所以我們原則上尊重法務部的處理意見。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:10:33.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:10:34.965000+08:00","text":"所以你們沒有特別的看法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副司長靜倫","start":"2026-04-13T11:10:35.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:10:35.867000+08:00","text":"我們支持。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:10:36.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:10:37.009000+08:00","text":"你們支持？對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:10:37.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:11:21.754000+08:00","text":"我想請問廳長，站在法務部、站在檢察官的立場，打擊犯罪，有時候我們認為常常就是除惡務盡，但是法律這一套邏輯裡面，又有法的安定性這一個問題，我不曉得司法院的看法是怎麼樣，你說有時候未成年人，或者甚至於是兒少發生這樣的一個性侵案件，我們從衛福部也好、從監察院也好，這樣的統計報告裡面，監察院調查裡面，76%加害者是權勢上不對等，不管是權勢不對等，或者是未成年人。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:11:24.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:11:50.678000+08:00","text":"衛福部剛剛統計是說性侵被害人一半是未成年人，以這樣來看，這對被害人來講，關於這個時效，當我有一天想告的時候，這對被害人來講，因為法律的規定，它太晚了、時間上它太晚了，可是有時候這個又不是它太晚的問題，是你這個制度又太早把它給關門了，我不曉得廳長的看法怎麼樣？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"許廳長辰舟","start":"2026-04-13T11:11:52.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:12:59.523000+08:00","text":"是，追訴權時效本身是要去平衡犯罪訴追的要求、國家刑罰權的行使，以及法律安定性這些衝突的利益如何權衡的一個機制，以未成年的性侵害被害人來講，他會有幾個特徵跟一般的狀況可能不太一樣，比如他身心發展未成熟、他可能受制於權力不對等，所以在他法律追訴權時效開始進行的時候，他當下或是在一段的期間裡面，法律有賦予他去告訴的這個機會，或揭發這個犯罪的機會，但是他事實上卻無法行使，以這個事實上的基礎來做立法權衡，我相信今天行政院跟司法院已經有一個會銜版的草案，委員總共提了二十九案的草案，都是本於這樣的一個事實來做立法的規劃，我覺得依照這個事實基礎來做適當的制度權衡，我相信這是一個合理而且可以期待的一個作法。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:12:59.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:13:19.092000+08:00","text":"你也覺得合理，其實時效一般在講，時間經過了以後、法律久了以後，要給它安定性，可是因為時間經過，你如果沒有去做區分的話，有的是基於權勢不對等，有的是因為他還是小孩，會來不及告，等到哪一天他長大了，他要告的時候，法律卻跟你說：抱歉，太晚了、關門了！","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:13:21.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:13:25.456000+08:00","text":"就有這樣的問題，變成整個正義的追求，我們又覺得好奇怪。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:13:25.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:13:29.483000+08:00","text":"所以我看廳長這邊的意思，跟衛福部這邊的意思，也認為確實這個追訴權的時效是可以去做調整的？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"許廳長辰舟","start":"2026-04-13T11:13:35.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:13:39.144000+08:00","text":"這部分是屬於立法形成的空間……","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:13:39.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:03.395000+08:00","text":"那當然，也要問問你們的意見，我怎麼會不知道立法形成，現在就這樣陷入一種狀況，大家讀書讀一讀，都說基於法律安定性，以及跟被害者正義之間的一個平衡，但是那個平衡，你如果講法的安定性，而沒有去做區分的話，那個安定性只在講時間而已，他沒有去區分權勢到底是不是不對等，這個個案裡面權勢是不是不對等？","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:03.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:09.296000+08:00","text":"然後被害人到底是不是小孩子，以他整個心智成熟方面來講。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:10.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:22.874000+08:00","text":"只因為時間經過了，基於法的安定性，時效消滅檢察官只能不起訴處分，哪怕你起訴了，到法院去，一樣不受理，會有這樣的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許廳長辰舟","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:23.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:37.905000+08:00","text":"是，兒少身心發展未成熟，以及他可能跟大人之間，因為年齡的差距跟實力的差距，或是其他的關係，他處於權力不對等，我相信這個幾乎是兒少性侵被害人可能共同有的一個現象。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:38.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:40.627000+08:00","text":"是啦，這個論述大家都知道啦，我是說你們態度。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"許廳長辰舟","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:41.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:43.288000+08:00","text":"態度，我們是肯定這樣的一個立法形成。肯定？好。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"許廳長辰舟","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:43.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:48.272000+08:00","text":"因為如果給他的時間，他沒有辦法行使，那這個時間等於就是沒有給他的意思。OK。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:49.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:53.836000+08:00","text":"次長，這樣差不多了，我再反問回來，這個修法裡面，你們法務部的態度為何？","quality":0.633},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:54.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:15:08.588000+08:00","text":"我們也是認為跟大部分委員，還有司法院這邊的意見都是一樣，肯定未成年人遭到性侵害的部分上，追訴權應該是讓他成年，就20歲以後再開始……","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:15:09.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:15:12.471000+08:00","text":"好，所以這件事就是在向社會宣告，這種壞事，你就不要做啦！是啦！","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:15:13.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:15:39.074000+08:00","text":"尤其是涉及到整個性侵的、尤其是對這些未成年人，涉及到權勢不對等的，哪怕有一天時效都已經經過10年了、經過20年了，很抱歉，因為當初權勢不對等，可能你的下屬不敢去跟你舉發，小孩子因為心智不成熟，他還沒有長大，這樣我們就延長，所以這個其實是社會上有共識的，你的意思也是這樣嘛？是。好。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:15:39.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:15:44.619000+08:00","text":"我簡單再另外進入一個議題，衛福部請回，兩位先留著一下。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:15:44.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:16:08.655000+08:00","text":"小額貪污的議題，我想今天也是重頭戲，大案涉及到整個結構性的一個問題，有時候你說幾百塊、幾千塊還是1萬塊，貪污罪名是很重，法重但是很多就是情輕的問題，那個確實是值得去做差別的待遇。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:09.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:16:24.042000+08:00","text":"其實本席一直認為這個修法不是什麼放寬的問題，是在講行為人的責任跟他不法的內涵有沒有符合比例原則，「貪污」這名字很難聽啊！","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:25.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:16:28.824000+08:00","text":"違背職務的行為，當然可惡啊！殺啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:28.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:16:39.241000+08:00","text":"但是跟不違背職務的行為或者金額很小，有時候的金額，你去看那個證交法的規定，金額本身就涵蓋了整個不法的內涵在裡面。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:40.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:15.053000+08:00","text":"所以我是認為今天基於整個情節輕微的部分，提出這樣的修法，社會上其實本來就可以來做討論，但是我們也很怕誤解，其實這一次的修法裡面，你說犯第四條到第六條之罪，其實態樣就有十三種不同的類型，這個構成要件還必須加上「情節輕微」，以及所得不法利益是在5萬元以下，不是不法利益在5萬元以下，就能減輕、免除其刑，社會有時候常常會造成誤解，也就是真正要減輕的話，很不好意思！","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:15.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:53.192000+08:00","text":"也要通過法官那一關，情節本身是輕微的，就是他的動機、危險性、犯刑的強度、外在的壓力，倒不是只有單純從整個財產所得的金額大小來看，所以這個方向，我不曉得司法院跟法務部就這個地方，你們簡單來做一個回應，這樣三黨大家在這裡說的時候，比較不會互相在那邊互推，罵來罵去，你知不知道嗎？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:53.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:53.672000+08:00","text":"次長，你的態度如何？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:54.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:18:37.939000+08:00","text":"委員講的，我們都很贊成，事實上條文的這個部分，第四條到第六條必須要情節輕微，還要加上所得跟不正利益在5萬元以下，不是一旦到5萬元以下就一定是這樣子，要給法院再有一個比例原則的判斷，我們也很怕社會上誤解我們在貪污這件事情上竟然是放寬了，就是貪5萬塊錢沒事，我們不是這樣的一個意思，其實無論是法務部，我還有我們各位委員的意思都不是這樣子，都是希望在綜合評量上真正是有情節輕微，然後又是5萬塊以下的，我們才會有這樣多一個讓法官有判決量刑上面的判斷。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:18:39.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:19:03.241000+08:00","text":"這樣講就很清楚了，比如我舉例3萬塊好了，可是你收了3萬塊，你這是違背職務的一個行為，旁邊的廳長可能認為這可惡啊，雖然是3萬塊，但你這是違背職務、這個不法內涵很高、這對於整個行為人的一個責任，然後整個綜合來分析、判斷，雖然是3萬塊，還有可能是重判啦！","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:19:03.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:19:03.421000+08:00","text":"廳長，不是這樣子嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許廳長辰舟","start":"2026-04-13T11:19:05.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:19:24.013000+08:00","text":"就是剛剛我們在討論的這一個問題，基本上就是如何讓法官的裁量空間可以符合罪刑相當，怎麼樣制定才是適當這樣的一個問題，其實貪污治罪條例第四條到第六條本來就是一個特別法，它的量刑本來就是從重。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"許廳長辰舟","start":"2026-04-13T11:19:24.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:20:04.689000+08:00","text":"那麼第十二條不是指直接減或免，它是讓法官審酌他的情節是不是輕微、審酌他所圖得的利益，綜合考慮要不要減或免，有關減的話，如果因為這條條文同時已經增加了免除期刑這樣的規定，依照刑法第六十六條可以減至剩下三分之一，甚至也可以再搭配第五十九條再做減刑，所以基本上，它是讓法官可以有裁量的空間，把它訂清楚，會比目前使用實質違法性這樣的理論能夠有更一致的裁量標準，對於整個罪刑相當理論在實務上的落實是有幫助的。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:20:05.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:20:05.849000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-04-13T11:20:06.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:20:08.570000+08:00","text":"今天就是綜合幾個版本的問題，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T11:20:09.070000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:20:10.498571+08:00","text":"謝謝莊委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T11:20:10.798571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:20:16.798571+08:00","text":"接下來請楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T11:20:17.098571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:20:21.955714+08:00","text":"王育敏委員，王育敏委員，王育敏委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T11:20:22.255714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:20:25.684286+08:00","text":"接下來有請洪孟楷委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}