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我跟你分享啦當然這是我們的講法就是說到底問題卡在哪裡當然最大最大的這個爭點一定是說所謂的本來要三家那可能未來都類似採最有利標這個狀況那因為三家坦白講對辦這個採購的購入來講它某種程度上是一種保障那如果未來如果假設修好方向一樣是往這個"},{"start":434.933,"end":455.119,"text":"單一一家投標就可以的話我覺得對採購的公務員來講就對這些承辦人啦這種裁量的這種權利在他手上那未來如果發生爭議他一定會有法律風險我們這裡面有很多前提就是說你當你這個機關預算通過之後就必須對他公告相關預算內容就知道了"},{"start":455.479,"end":473.869,"text":"那政府採購在政府採購網上面都有都有公告那現在也是電子領標電子投標然後希望等標期長希望預告期長在這些前提之下呢那麼回到這個決標的三家改成一家才有這樣的這個修法"},{"start":474.449,"end":493.321,"text":"而且呢我們現在第二次開標第二次招標的事就第一次流標第二次第二次就不限三家也是在進行啦就是有一些配套在進行但是已經被外界誤解了那我跟委員報告越是巨額採購那個軌道啦重大工程動輒幾百億千億的能投標的"},{"start":494.461,"end":507.418,"text":"廠商不多嘛對不對那如果這些廠商呢他認為說不然再等一下啦那因為金額不夠再等一下啦所以那個就勢必預算金額就會提高那"},{"start":508.601,"end":529,"text":"如果說經常我們政府這些巨額採購都會面臨這樣問題所以說如果說整個等標期夠長然後呢這個決標的方法也明確比方說是選商嘛所以改成一家的話反而會造成有醫院投標人他不會親力的不投"},{"start":529.656,"end":546.922,"text":"好我想這個是業界的立場你如果去看我們的政府我知道我要跟主委講說其實重點還是說回到政府採購法本身是我們今天我今天提這個問題主要還是要擔心為公務人員去講這個事情就是說你要把相關的配套很明確化的未來萬一有"},{"start":548.522,"end":565.227,"text":"萬一有人沒得標去投訴去告圖利那你要讓這個承辦人員他在法律上能夠站住腳目前現實上對那是沒有問題這些前提都做到目前現實上就是有些機關金額不大不小的會造成他很大的困擾"},{"start":566.227,"end":591.765,"text":"就是一定要三家啦所以他這是造成很大的困擾然後也因此有一些這個案子已經發生我請副主委再跟補充說一下跟我再補充就是說有一點誤解說取消三家還要認了一家來就開票事實上不是這樣因為每個標案他有資格限制他可能會訂定基本資格他要訂定特定的資格還有他提供服務的規格"},{"start":592.546,"end":610.886,"text":"他必須這些都符合以後他才能進入要不要決標給他這是第一個啦那第二個當時會這樣的考量是因為很多機關的反應他是這樣子因為他有三家他有執行時效的問題所以在實務上最常看到的是機關請他去找三家"},{"start":612.582,"end":640.408,"text":"那他就會有一點變成是機關有一點讓他跳了一個陷阱他基本上面他以現在的環境他很難去微飆啊因為現在都是電子公告嘛他也不曉得有多少廠家會來他只是擔心假設說今天因為不足三家那我的備標成本都不見了他是基於這樣的心態可能為了讓他符合形式上面他並不是真的有辦法去微飆啦"},{"start":641.068,"end":664.953,"text":"那當然最有正反的意見我們都還在通盤的這個研議好因為時間差不多最後一個問題一樣是政府採購法就是說今天這個因為我們委員提到說三政條款如果它過去多次被政府列為所謂的拒絕往來的廠商名單那希望說未來這樣的廠商或這樣的營業人他就不應該繼續有這個投票的資格我不知道共產黨對這樣子的想法這樣的修法方向支持不支持"},{"start":666.218,"end":683.148,"text":"各位包括就是說目前對於停權的機制怎麼調整各方意見非常多包括要不要所謂的三振條件等於是永久發出他參與標案的資格那就這個議題目前我們在跟各個單位研討的狀況底下"},{"start":684.108,"end":702.327,"text":"絕大部分的意見認為這個有點違反比例的原則所以我們目前基本上的規劃是朝比較這個中間的就是說延長目前可以停權的把它數次的這個停權的時效還有在不同機關裡面去做一個盤整"},{"start":703.228,"end":726.284,"text":"那麼每一個機關原則上可以停到五年那如果他的停權是有再加上其他機關他有可能會停到五年十年十五年那取一個中間當然我目前並沒有排除說一定不要這一個所謂的三政條款但是就確實跟這個委員報告我們聽到目前為止法律界都反對啦"},{"start":726.744,"end":731.482,"text":"好沒關係最後那個這個主委副主委你們就把這個討論剛剛三振條款討論的這種討論給我們一份資料好不好好好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:07.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:10.692000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們一樣先請工程會陳金德主委。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:11.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:12.114000+08:00","text":"有請陳主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:17.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:18.866000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:18.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:19.106000+08:00","text":"主委早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:19.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:48.147000+08:00","text":"我想棒球迷都非常關切上週發生的亞太球場的事情，我們回到法規面，我想跟主委要個答案，那時候臺南體育局整個招標案件將此案視為是所謂收入性質的採購，他當初是4月2號公告、4月7號結標，中間有連假，扣掉連假之後，換句話說辦公日大概只有兩天到三天左右的時間。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:48.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:14:58.112000+08:00","text":"我想要確定一下，像這樣子的狀況，就「未達公告金額標案最短等標期為7日」的法定下限，這樣子的狀況到底是不是合法？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T11:14:59.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:15:00.173000+08:00","text":"請副主委跟你回復。好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:15:00.173000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:15:03.710000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:15:03.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:15:21.696000+08:00","text":"首先跟委員報告，就我們了解，亞太球場的周邊攤商這一次的標案事實上採用的有點像是出租它的空間，所以嚴格講起來，它並不屬於政府採購法裡面所講的採購。對。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:15:24.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:15:48.144000+08:00","text":"當然如果要進一步問，就是以這種情況，理論上有三種方式可以處理，一個當然是直接用類似財產的出租；另外他可以走促參，就是OT；另外一個，兩條路都走不通以後，政府採購法裡面還有勞務採購。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:15:48.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:16:01.551000+08:00","text":"目前看起來它走的比較像是把空間出租，所以基本上並不是機關付錢給它，是它把錢繳回來，這是第一個，在程序上面。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:02.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:16:16.678000+08:00","text":"第二個，假設它是政府採購的話，理論上政府採購雖然工程會訂有一個等標期，它是最低期限，並不表示只要符合……對。","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:17.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:16:28.043000+08:00","text":"因為基本上法規之規定是要合理期限，如果這個等標期裡面絕大部分都是在休假，理論上一看應該是不合理，會產生這樣的一個問題。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:29.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:16:46.491000+08:00","text":"你剛剛講這看起來沒有違法、違規，那我要確定，如果你們今天這樣講的話，那未來政府機關要辦理相關的空間出租，不管是球場、商場，包括公共空間，它是不是都可以適用這次的標準？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:16:48.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:01.957000+08:00","text":"當然它現在是廢標了，等一下跟你討論到底是什麼原因廢標，但是我要問，如果這個說法是合理、可行的話，未來各地方政府是不是都可以這樣，就是今天公告，後天就決標，可以這樣嗎？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:01.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:02.698000+08:00","text":"我要確定這件事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:03.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:16.665000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，如果是這種採購，我們目前在檢討，現在雖然我們法規是說合理期限，我們給它一個最低期限，那機關可能會覺得只要符合最低的就好，他沒有考慮合理性。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:17.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:25.749000+08:00","text":"我們未來檢討的方向會是以這個廠商實際可以工作的天數來算比較合理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:26.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:38.414000+08:00","text":"至於如果是屬於財產的出租等等，因為不是工程會的職權，當然將來整個調整以後，他如果願意比照，也許整個程序上面就會比較合理。","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:39.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:49.921000+08:00","text":"未來所謂的這種出租、收入性質採購，因為你剛剛講，不符合傳統上一般政府採購的什麼7天……","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:49.921000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:50.921000+08:00","text":"對，有點像政府的……","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:50.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:52.882000+08:00","text":"電子開標5天的那種……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:54.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:17:59.664000+08:00","text":"場所空間出租，並不是機關出錢，是承租人繳錢給機關，定義上面就不屬於……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:17:59.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:18:17.619000+08:00","text":"沒有，我們務實一點面對，當然不是政府出錢，不過今天我已經確定說如果能夠標到這個案子，坦白說對廠商來講是大利多，因為某種程度上這是獨占，程序上還是有營利的問題啊！","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:18:18.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:18:28.727000+08:00","text":"所以才會講那未來有沒有一個標準，像所謂的收入性質採購，它的等標期有沒有這種要求，還是就開放，我可以今天上班公告，下午結標？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:18:30.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:18:31.029000+08:00","text":"如果沒有標準的話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:18:31.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:18:50.786000+08:00","text":"因為那不屬於政府採購，我沒有辦法代替其他機關……但是我覺得從本質上來講，他既然要公開讓各個廠商都來，當然是讓所有可能參與的商家有合理的準備，法律的原則一定是這樣子。對。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:18:51.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:19:01.879000+08:00","text":"至於實際上他要怎麼操作，如果其他機關沒有明確的規定，那麼他來參考工程會對政府採購的規定，我們也很樂見。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:19:03.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:19:23.179000+08:00","text":"好，接下來再問政府採購法之前說要修法的部分，本來說要修法，當然有很多原因，包含希望改善工程招標的效率、希望加速行政上效率，不要每次都有這麼多像是常常流標、沒有人來標的狀況發生。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:19:23.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:19:34.094000+08:00","text":"我想問一下，現在這個狀況，我們也希望：第一個是要提升政府效率；第二個，從源頭解決過去有廠商違法借標的這種情況發生。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:19:35.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:19:45.017000+08:00","text":"現在暫緩修法，那未來工程會會不會繼續往這個修法方向去做，以及現在能不能處理到的是，本來你提修法是為了解決現狀的這些問題嘛！","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:19:45.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:19:47.098000+08:00","text":"現在如果暫時沒有要修的話，這些問題要怎麼處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T11:19:52.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:20:36.418000+08:00","text":"這個修法已經醞釀了一段時間，我們之前也參考過機關和一些公協會，比方營建公會等的意見，所以提出預告，預告之後會有一些不同意見，大致上已經有收斂，所以我們才準備要送行政院，但是後來又出現了一些媒體的意見，我們認為需要多思考，我們打算再更進一步了解機關和相關意見之後再進行預告，所以還持續在推動當中，最快應該是今年年底之前能夠重新預告。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T11:20:37.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:20:55.027000+08:00","text":"在此之前，我們會把所有各界質疑的一一來克服、一一再來思考，的確是需要修改的我們就修改，如果因為修改而導致其他的相關問題出來，我們會進一步來考量或是不去動相關的條文。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:20:55.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:21:26.736000+08:00","text":"主委，我跟你分享，當然這是我們的講法，到底問題卡在哪裡，最大的爭點一定是本來要三家，但可能未來都是類似採最有利標的狀況，坦白講，三家對於辦理採購的公務人員來講，某種程度上是種保障，如果假設修法方向一樣是往單一一家投標就可以的話，我覺得對採購的公務員來講、對這些承辦人來講，裁量的權力在他手上，未來如果發生爭議，他一定會有法律風險。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T11:21:26.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:21:55.849000+08:00","text":"我們這裡面有很多前提，當這個機關預算通過之後，就必須對外公告相關預算內容，這樣就會知道了，政府採購在政府採購網上面都有公告，現在也是電子領標、電子投標，希望等標期長、預告期長，在這些前提之下，回到決標三家改成一家，才有這樣的修法。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T11:21:56.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:22:07.096000+08:00","text":"而且我們現在第一次流標，第二次開標、招標的時候就不限三家，也是有一些配套在進行，但是已經被外界誤解了。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T11:22:07.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:22:16.862000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，越是巨額採購，如軌道、重大工程，動輒幾百億、千億的案子，能投標的廠商不多。當然。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T11:22:18.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:22:50.980000+08:00","text":"如果這些廠商認為不然再等一下，因為金額不夠再等一下，預算金額勢必就會提高，這些巨額採購經常都會面臨這樣的問題，所以如果整個等標期夠長，決標的方法也明確，比方是選商，所以改成一家的話，反而會造成有意願投標的人，不會輕易地不投。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:22:51.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:22:55.237000+08:00","text":"好，我想這個是業界的立場……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T11:22:55.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:22:56.678000+08:00","text":"你如果去看我們的政府……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:22:56.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:23:17.564000+08:00","text":"我知道，我要跟主委講，其實重點還是回到政府採購法本身，我今天提這個問題主要還是擔心，我要為公務人員去講這個事情，你要把相關的配套明確化，未來萬一有人沒得標去投訴、去告圖利，你要讓承辦人員在法律上能夠站得住腳。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T11:23:18.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:23:38.955000+08:00","text":"那是沒有問題，這些前提都做到，目前現實上有些機關的金額不大不小會造成很大困擾，就是一定要三家，所以造成很大的困擾，也因此有一些案子……我請副主委再跟你補充說明。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:23:39.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:23:59.932000+08:00","text":"跟委員再補充說明，有點誤解取消三家，好像任何一家來就開標，事實上不是這樣，因為每個標案有資格限制，它可能會訂定基本資格，還要訂定特定資格，還有提供服務的規格，必須這些都符合以後才能進入要不要決標給它，這是第一個。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:24:00.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:24:12.866000+08:00","text":"第二個，當時會這樣考量是因為很多機關的反映，因為有三家又有執行時效的問題，所以在實務上最常看到的是機關請它去找三家。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:24:12.866000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:24:15.062000+08:00","text":"確實，就是訪商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:24:15.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:24:46.689000+08:00","text":"就會有一點變成是機關讓它跳了一個陷阱，基本上，以現在的環境，它很難去圍標，因為現在都是電子公告，他也不曉得有多少廠家會來，他只是擔心假設因為不足三家，我的備標成本都不見了，他是基於這樣的心態，為了符合形式，他並不是真的有辦法去圍標，當然這有正反意見，我們都還在通盤研議。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:24:46.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:25:06.933000+08:00","text":"好，因為時間差不多了，最後一個問題，一樣是政府採購法，今天有委員提到三振條款的部分，如果它過去多次被政府列為所謂的拒絕往來廠商名單，希望未來這樣的廠商或這樣的營業人就不應該繼續有投標資格，我不知道工程會立場對於這樣子的想法、這樣的修法方向支不支持？","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:25:09.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:25:56.396000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，目前對於停權機制怎麼調整，各方意見非常多，包括要不要所謂的三振條文，等於是永久撇除它參與標案的資格，就這個議題，目前我們跟各個單位研討的狀況，絕大部分的意見是認為這有一點違反比例原則，所以我們目前基本上的規劃是朝比較中間的，延長目前可以停權的時間，把它數次的停權時效，還有在不同機關裡面去做一個盤整，每一個機關原則上可以停到五年，如果它的停權事由，又再加上其他機關，有可能會停到五年、十年、十五年，所以取一個中間值。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:25:56.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:26:08.264000+08:00","text":"當然，我們目前並沒有排除一定不要所謂的三振條款，但是確實要跟委員報告，我們聽到目前為止，法律界都反對，他們認為這個違反……","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"黃委員健豪","start":"2026-04-13T11:26:08.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:26:13.482000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，最後，主委、副主委，你們就把關於三振條款的討論給我們一份資料，好不好？好。謝謝。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T11:26:13.982000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:26:16.839143+08:00","text":"謝謝黃健豪召委的質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T11:26:17.139143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:26:19.996286+08:00","text":"接著請陳雪生委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}