{"error":false,"id":["168471"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168471,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168471","日期":"2026-04-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-23-6","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":6,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-13T11:14:02+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-13T11:26:16+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:14","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1d7479efcaf5355b0413783e2c4a522d3aa0fde58f0e31cf2a1a78cd5b970aaea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:14:02 - 11:26:16","會議時間":"2026-04-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期交通委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.262218750000001,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.227843750000002,"end":10.324718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.758468750000002,"end":16.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.77096875,"end":26.254718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.575343750000002,"end":56.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.05159375,"end":58.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.055343750000006,"end":68.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.034093750000004,"end":61.219718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.99909375,"end":107.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.65221875,"end":74.98971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.43596875,"end":82.11096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.84534375000001,"end":123.23534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.42096875000001,"end":147.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.58596875,"end":153.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.86346875,"end":154.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.14596875,"end":158.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.36471875,"end":165.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.76034375,"end":174.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.92346875,"end":180.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.08284375000002,"end":216.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.92534375000002,"end":222.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.40534375000001,"end":230.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.31596875000002,"end":240.55034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.62659375,"end":242.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.80721875,"end":251.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.12659375,"end":253.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.57784375000003,"end":267.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.08409375000002,"end":254.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.68534375,"end":268.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.73596875000004,"end":291.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.16721875,"end":289.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.27659375,"end":295.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.98471875,"end":300.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.28346875,"end":302.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.61659375,"end":318.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.51284375,"end":323.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.41909375,"end":334.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.78034375000004,"end":344.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.39909375,"end":346.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.55471875,"end":348.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.76534375,"end":356.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.83596875,"end":357.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.25346875,"end":372.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.32721875000004,"end":374.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.55471875,"end":380.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.31784375,"end":378.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.58784375000005,"end":378.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.91659375,"end":384.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.62909375000004,"end":386.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.16034375000004,"end":390.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.75471875000005,"end":393.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.35346875000005,"end":403.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.36034375,"end":413.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.58659375,"end":417.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.58596875,"end":445.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.44659375000003,"end":447.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.60659375,"end":458.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.58471875000004,"end":452.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.97284375000004,"end":452.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.67659375000005,"end":467.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.50221875000005,"end":468.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.93659375000004,"end":469.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.78034375000004,"end":471.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.19346875,"end":473.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.37034375,"end":486.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.13721875000005,"end":481.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.77346875,"end":488.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.79846875000004,"end":493.62471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.19846875,"end":495.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.29534375000003,"end":495.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.13909375000003,"end":500.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.18909375000004,"end":506.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.27659375,"end":507.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.52534375000005,"end":509.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.89221875000004,"end":529.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.60221875,"end":530.8172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.98596875,"end":531.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.28534375,"end":533.5678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.24721875,"end":533.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.28096875,"end":533.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.5678437500001,"end":533.8547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.8547187500001,"end":533.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.8715937500001,"end":534.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.0234687500001,"end":537.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.39471875,"end":534.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.33096875,"end":538.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.44471875,"end":547.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.3503437500001,"end":555.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.31971875,"end":565.6303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.18721875,"end":567.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.7734687500001,"end":577.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.14034375,"end":569.2078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.4765937500001,"end":611.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.00284375,"end":644.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.10409375,"end":613.3190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.0278437500001,"end":641.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.65596875,"end":649.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.41471875,"end":665.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.5134687500001,"end":674.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.87909375,"end":677.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.9128437500001,"end":675.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.8659687500001,"end":727.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.63471875,"end":734.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":733.4522187500002,"end":733.78971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.305,"end":10.134,"text":"好謝謝主席主席我們要先請工程會陳金德主委有請陳主委"},{"start":15.945,"end":37.982,"text":"委員長主委早主委我想棒球迷都非常的關切上週發生的這個亞太球場的事情那我們回到法規面來我想跟主委要個答案就是說這個台南那時候體育局的招標案件就說他是視為是這個收入性質的採購那所以他當初在公告的時候是4月2號公告那4月7號結標中間有廉價嘛"},{"start":40.464,"end":58.193,"text":"那扣掉廉價之後換句話說這個從這個辦公日大概只有兩天到三天左右的時間喔所以我想要確定一下像這樣子的狀況他未達公告金額標案最短等標期的七日這個法定下限這樣子的狀況到底是不是合法的我請副主委來跟你們說"},{"start":61.71,"end":79.696,"text":"首先跟委員報告我們了解亞太球場周邊攤商這一次的標案事實上它採用的有點像是出租它的空間所以嚴格講起來它並不屬於政府採購法裡面所講的採購"},{"start":82.037,"end":107.304,"text":"那當然如果要進一步問就是說以他這種的情況啊他理論上他有三種方式可以處理一個當然是直接用類似財產的出租嘛另外他可以走這個促餐就是這個OT啊另外一個當然就是說兩條路都走不通以後那麼政府採購法裡面他還有老物的一個採購那目前看起來他走的"},{"start":108.004,"end":122.352,"text":"比較像是把空間出租所以基本上面這個並不是機關付錢給他是他把錢繳回來所以第一個在程序上面那第二個在他的這個假設"},{"start":123.453,"end":146.043,"text":"他是政府採購的話那麼因為理論上政府採購這個雖然工程規定有一個等標期最低但是最低的期限並不表示說啊你只要扶那個基本上法規規定是要合理的期限啊他如果說這個等標期裡面絕大部分都是在休假理論上一看應該是不合理啦那會產生這樣的一個問題"},{"start":147.625,"end":174.175,"text":"副主任你剛剛講說這看起來沒有違法違規喔那我要確定如果你們今天這樣講的話那未來政府機關要辦理相關的這種把空間出租出去不管是球場不管是商場不管是公共空間他是不是都可以適用這樣這次的標準他就是公共告知當然他現在是廢標了當然廢標原因待會跟討論到底什麼原因廢標但是我要問說如果未來這個說法是合理是可行的話未來各地方政府"},{"start":174.995,"end":194.685,"text":"是不是都可以這樣我就是今天公告我下禮今天公告我後天就絕標可以這樣嗎我要確定這件事情跟委員報告如果是政府採購目前在檢討以現在雖然我們是法規講說合理期限那我們給他一個最低期限那機關他可能會覺得我只要符合最低就好他沒有去考慮合理性"},{"start":195.385,"end":221.577,"text":"那我們未來檢討的方向會是以說他這個廠商實際可以工作的天數來算比較合理啦那至於如果是屬於財產的出租等等那因為不是工程會的職權那當然他如果願意比照將來整個調整以後也許就會整個程序上面比較合理啦所以未來這種所謂的這種所謂收入性質啦這種出租的收入性質採購"},{"start":223.479,"end":238.904,"text":"因為你剛剛講他可能不符合傳統一般政府採購的這種七天的或是電子開標五天的那種的這個場所空間出租並不是機關出錢是這個成都人他繳錢給機關我們務實一點面對當然他不是政府出錢不過"},{"start":243.871,"end":266.727,"text":"我今天已經確定說如果我能夠標到這案子坦白說啦對廠商來講是大利多某種程度上是獨佔嘛所以他還是有這個程序上還是有盈利的問題啊所以現在才想講說那未來有沒有一個標準所以像這種所謂的收入性的採購他的等標期還有沒有這種有沒有這種要求還是就開放那我可以今天早上上班公告下午結標嗎"},{"start":268.028,"end":285.502,"text":"如果沒有標準的話因為他不屬於政府採購我沒有辦法太低其他機關但是我覺得就是說從本質上來講他既然是要公開讓各個廠商都來合理當然是說要讓所有可能參與的商家他有合理的準備"},{"start":286.403,"end":299.899,"text":"不像是法律的原則一定是這樣子啊那自己實際上他要怎麼操作也許如果說其他機關他沒有明確那麼他來參考工程會的對政府採購的規定那這個我們覺得是很樂見的"},{"start":301.348,"end":322.8,"text":"好那接下來我想問一下我們這個政府採購法這個之前說要修法的部分這個本來說要修法那當然有很多原因嘛包含說這個希望改善工程照標的效率然後希望說這個加速我們這個行政上的這個效率不要說每次都這麼多常常有流標常常有這個沒有人來標的狀況發生那我想問一下現在這個狀況"},{"start":324.431,"end":345.118,"text":"我們希望也希望說從第一個要提升政府效率第二個要說從源頭去解決這種過去有廠商去違法借標這種情況發生那現在暫緩修法那未來工程會會不會繼續往這個修法方向去做那以及現在能不能去處理到我本來你本來提修法是因為解決現狀這些問題嗎那現在如果暫時沒有要修的話那這些問題要怎麼處理"},{"start":350.628,"end":365.188,"text":"這個修法已經醞釀了一段時間我們之前也因為參考過機關跟一些工協會比如說營建工會等等這些的意見所以提出預告"},{"start":365.99,"end":380.489,"text":"預告之後會有一些不同意見那大致上已經有收斂所以我們才準備要送行政院但是後來又出現了一些媒體的意見所以我們認為我們需要多思考"},{"start":381.05,"end":404.965,"text":"所以我們會打算在更進一步的了解機關跟相關的意見之後會再進行預告所以這個還持續在推動當中所以最快應該是今年年底之前能夠重新預告那在此之前我們會把所有各界質疑的一一來克服一一再來思考那麼的確是需要修改的就修改"},{"start":405.345,"end":433.593,"text":"如果說因為這個修改如果導致其他的相關的問題出來那我們會進一步來考量就不去動相關的條文來主委 我跟你分享啦當然這是我們的講法就是說到底問題卡在哪裡當然最大最大的這個爭點一定是說所謂的本來要三家那可能未來都類似採最有利標這個狀況那因為三家坦白講對辦這個採購的購入來講它某種程度上是一種保障那如果未來如果假設修好方向一樣是往這個"},{"start":434.933,"end":455.119,"text":"單一一家投標就可以的話我覺得對採購的公務員來講就對這些承辦人啦這種裁量的這種權利在他手上那未來如果發生爭議他一定會有法律風險我們這裡面有很多前提就是說你當你這個機關預算通過之後就必須對他公告相關預算內容就知道了"},{"start":455.479,"end":473.869,"text":"那政府採購在政府採購網上面都有都有公告那現在也是電子領標電子投標然後希望等標期長希望預告期長在這些前提之下呢那麼回到這個決標的三家改成一家才有這樣的這個修法"},{"start":474.449,"end":493.321,"text":"而且呢我們現在第二次開標第二次招標的事就第一次流標第二次第二次就不限三家也是在進行啦就是有一些配套在進行但是已經被外界誤解了那我跟委員報告越是巨額採購那個軌道啦重大工程動輒幾百億千億的能投標的"},{"start":494.461,"end":507.418,"text":"廠商不多嘛對不對那如果這些廠商呢他認為說不然再等一下啦那因為金額不夠再等一下啦所以那個就勢必預算金額就會提高那"},{"start":508.601,"end":529,"text":"如果說經常我們政府這些巨額採購都會面臨這樣問題所以說如果說整個等標期夠長然後呢這個決標的方法也明確比方說是選商嘛所以改成一家的話反而會造成有醫院投標人他不會親力的不投"},{"start":529.656,"end":546.922,"text":"好我想這個是業界的立場你如果去看我們的政府我知道我要跟主委講說其實重點還是說回到政府採購法本身是我們今天我今天提這個問題主要還是要擔心為公務人員去講這個事情就是說你要把相關的配套很明確化的未來萬一有"},{"start":548.522,"end":565.227,"text":"萬一有人沒得標去投訴去告圖利那你要讓這個承辦人員他在法律上能夠站住腳目前現實上對那是沒有問題這些前提都做到目前現實上就是有些機關金額不大不小的會造成他很大的困擾"},{"start":566.227,"end":591.765,"text":"就是一定要三家啦所以他這是造成很大的困擾然後也因此有一些這個案子已經發生我請副主委再跟補充說一下跟我再補充就是說有一點誤解說取消三家還要認了一家來就開票事實上不是這樣因為每個標案他有資格限制他可能會訂定基本資格他要訂定特定的資格還有他提供服務的規格"},{"start":592.546,"end":610.886,"text":"他必須這些都符合以後他才能進入要不要決標給他這是第一個啦那第二個當時會這樣的考量是因為很多機關的反應他是這樣子因為他有三家他有執行時效的問題所以在實務上最常看到的是機關請他去找三家"},{"start":612.582,"end":640.408,"text":"那他就會有一點變成是機關有一點讓他跳了一個陷阱他基本上面他以現在的環境他很難去微飆啊因為現在都是電子公告嘛他也不曉得有多少廠家會來他只是擔心假設說今天因為不足三家那我的備標成本都不見了他是基於這樣的心態可能為了讓他符合形式上面他並不是真的有辦法去微飆啦"},{"start":641.068,"end":664.953,"text":"那當然最有正反的意見我們都還在通盤的這個研議好因為時間差不多最後一個問題一樣是政府採購法就是說今天這個因為我們委員提到說三政條款如果它過去多次被政府列為所謂的拒絕往來的廠商名單那希望說未來這樣的廠商或這樣的營業人他就不應該繼續有這個投票的資格我不知道共產黨對這樣子的想法這樣的修法方向支持不支持"},{"start":666.218,"end":683.148,"text":"各位包括就是說目前對於停權的機制怎麼調整各方意見非常多包括要不要所謂的三振條件等於是永久發出他參與標案的資格那就這個議題目前我們在跟各個單位研討的狀況底下"},{"start":684.108,"end":702.327,"text":"絕大部分的意見認為這個有點違反比例的原則所以我們目前基本上的規劃是朝比較這個中間的就是說延長目前可以停權的把它數次的這個停權的時效還有在不同機關裡面去做一個盤整"},{"start":703.228,"end":726.284,"text":"那麼每一個機關原則上可以停到五年那如果他的停權是有再加上其他機關他有可能會停到五年十年十五年那取一個中間當然我目前並沒有排除說一定不要這一個所謂的三政條款但是就確實跟這個委員報告我們聽到目前為止法律界都反對啦"},{"start":726.744,"end":731.482,"text":"好沒關係最後那個這個主委副主委你們就把這個討論剛剛三振條款討論的這種討論給我們一份資料好不好好好謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}