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謝謝主席 有請工程會主委有請陳主委好 主委很早"},{"start":17.768,"end":41.936,"text":"我想今天大概兩個問題而已在前一陣子來講我們國防採購的大漏洞對不對室內裝修商福邁國際的話可以去標炸藥原料大石國際協商可以去做步槍的抵火更扯的是我們的茶行可以去標這些資安海軍的伺服器等等所以呢在我們過去的這段時間發生的時候我們就覺得"},{"start":45.438,"end":71.453,"text":"台灣的奇蹟很厲害從小本生意做到國安軍火那除了這個之外如果再把過去的歷史高端環球小吃店可以去標16.5億的快篩超市公司50萬資本一人公司可以去做超過這麼多資本額的一個案子那我們的結論就覺得說很厲害這些茶要配炸藥小吃配快篩"},{"start":73.46,"end":85.783,"text":"這是另類的台灣奇蹟比我們護國神山還要厲害我想要問主委是發生這些事情工程會有沒有什麼樣的做法作為"},{"start":87.734,"end":109.671,"text":"請教主委跟委員說明這個政務採購法裡面這個採購單位他本來就可以增訂他採購的項目設定禮約的能力跟他的資格那麼或者是相關的法規都有那採購單位他可以根據這個可以訂定所以你覺得這樣子是合理的嗎"},{"start":110.489,"end":136.53,"text":"不是合理的坦白講會不會怪怪的委員講的也言過其實啦所以言過其實啦所以說工程會打造台灣奇蹟這個是那算了那回到這個你不覺得看這個怪怪的嗎這就因為每個採購有他的這個訂定的這個採購的合約啦他的這個要採購的東西而且你舉的個案我的建議是這樣子啦你舉的個案有的是貿易"},{"start":137.691,"end":159.188,"text":"他有的是他是貿易並不是廠商今天如果說我如果一個做茶葉的廠商我要去投生產生產火藥那個當然這個是資格不符如果說他這個公司他的營業項目這個牽涉到這個就是我現在的要求就是說因為我自己也做過很多的政府採購案"},{"start":160.629,"end":178.754,"text":"基本上來講我是覺得公家部門在這個地方可能工程會可以去要求就是說它不見得是刑事審查商業登記那個我花了幾百塊就有了我勾一個資訊服務項目我就可以去標這樣子來講是代表是說我們的機關單位要去做到實質的審查"},{"start":180.376,"end":196.932,"text":"像這個像這個茶葉行去做這個資安的話也是啊他就是原本沒有得標的公司他是被停權的嘛所以我再找一個我友好廠商去標標完之後再轉包給他所以我派出去的員工也不是我這一個得標廠商的員工"},{"start":198.191,"end":220.506,"text":"所以我是要求的是說這些都過去沒有問題我們要解決問題嘛所以我是覺得要能夠要求或者是工程會去抽檢就是實質的廠商的資格的審查去包含他的專案時機嘛那第二個剛剛很多委員都問過的就是我們現在很多被停權的公司開一大堆子公司啦"},{"start":221.57,"end":237.922,"text":"負責人透過友好廠商去標的然後他可能也用他自己的這些以前的理監事再去登記一些不同的公司等等這些東西在你們現在工程會的這些不管是優質廠商 黑名單廠商有沒有這樣子的集合"},{"start":239.202,"end":264.832,"text":"我們當然可以集合啦包括這個廠商的履歷都會提供有個資料庫給這個集合準不準相關的這個採購機關甚至我們採購法的修正本來要防度這種停權了又換個公司或子公司這沒關係就是我希望是可以給我一個報告因為我覺得這個東西很重要因為二十幾年來都是這種問題啊好不好再來"},{"start":266.292,"end":290.118,"text":"接下來第二個問題這個是因為我從資通訊產業來這個我們資訊服務政府很多資訊服務系統的採購我們資服務業20幾年來包含軟體工會TCA台北市電腦工會電電工會各程式的這些的電腦工會等等其實IT資訊採購跟我一般造橋部是完全不一樣的同意吧 主委"},{"start":292.009,"end":315.171,"text":"這個當然是不一樣所以這裡頭我列了這幾個問題我相信各個工程會的主委應該都很清楚第一個 這個規格很難定然後我資安在合規一開始就要下去而不是等到最後再來去做資安的合規檢測因為你前面資格難定就是實施的機關單位他又沒辦法去控制這個規格的變化"},{"start":316.872,"end":339.478,"text":"所以需求一直變更然後廠商就覺得說你又變更規格我做下去我又沒有利潤所以慢慢的就是形成劣幣就驅逐良幣就一路一路做下去然後這個技術迭代又很快所以那時候我們就覺得說很棒啊這也是你們工程會前副主委葉澤良那時候找了速發部去訂了資訊服務系統採購指引後面113年還訂了雲服務的採購的範本"},{"start":346.223,"end":367.973,"text":"可是這些都是指引範本我們業界覺得不錯了有進步炒了20幾年但是我們希望是錄法可是我們就很期待你的這個修改修法但是沒有看到這一塊所以我們就覺得說你們的採購法修法是不是可以列入這一塊好好去思考可以嗎"},{"start":369.973,"end":398.612,"text":"跟委員報告坦白講有關資訊的採購確實陳如仁所講的他具有相當的專業性所以因為上面我們這一塊當然都是跟速發部還有跟速發部推給你知道嗎所以我們後來就是把它化為一個行政命令還有採購範本但是因為我們現在對他的理解因為他並沒有牽涉到整個採購法說哪一個條要去修改他基本上還是整個現有採購法的"},{"start":400.234,"end":426.816,"text":"我們是希望 你看我修改也可以我是可以幫你列一列專章如果委員有比較具體的到底是針對哪一條我們也很歡迎說可以提供給我們因為我們確實不是這方面的專家好 那我是覺得會後我們可以找個時間好好討論因為我也找了葉澤良我也找了當時我們寫這些因為當時我們資訊業界公會都有參與我是覺得這個東西指引沒有人要看"},{"start":427.758,"end":430.055,"text":"指引我假設我是一個執行單位不遵守會怎樣"},{"start":431.96,"end":461.019,"text":"這個就是我們採購法裡面這次要修的剛性契約的修訂所以我說拜託台灣是我們政府是AI行動內閣這一點要記住所以我的要求就是資訊服務採購的作業指引可以是入法的我們這個會後是可以討論的幫我們的產業做一點因為台灣是數位通訊數位資通訊的王國可是我們的軟體應用服務系統是很糟糕的政府的採購也很糟糕所以我們希望能夠把這一段補強"},{"start":461.84,"end":463.09,"text":"好不好好這可以嗎好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:59:43.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:59:46.200000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請工程會主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T11:59:47.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:59:47.682000+08:00","text":"有請陳主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T11:59:47.682000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T11:59:53.151000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:59:53.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T11:59:53.411000+08:00","text":"主委好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T11:59:56.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:00:03.231000+08:00","text":"今天大概就兩個問題而已，在前一陣子來講，我們國防採購出現大漏洞，對不對？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:00:03.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:00:27.480000+08:00","text":"室內裝修商福麥國際可以去標炸藥原料；大石國際（鞋商）可以去做步槍的底火；更扯的是，我們的茶行可以去標資安類的海軍伺服器等等，所以，在過去這一段時間發生這些事情的時候，我們就覺得臺灣的奇蹟很厲害，從小本生意做到國安軍火。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:00:28.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:00:55.007000+08:00","text":"除了這個之外，如果再翻開過去的歷史，高登環球小吃店可以去標16.5億的快篩；超思公司50萬資本額的一人公司，可以去做超過資本額這麼多的一個案子，那我們的結論就覺得很厲害，茶藥配炸藥、小吃配快篩，這是另類的臺灣奇蹟耶，比我們護國神山還要厲害。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:00:56.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:01:03.783000+08:00","text":"我想要問主委的是，發生這些事情，工程會有沒有什麼樣的做法、作為？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:01:05.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:01:06.074000+08:00","text":"請教主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T12:01:07.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:01:25.969000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，根據政府採購法，採購單位本來就可以增訂採購的項目，設定履約的能力跟資格，或者是相關的法規都有，採購單位根據這個可以訂定……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:01:26.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:01:27.671000+08:00","text":"所以你覺得這樣子是合理的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T12:01:28.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:01:29.950000+08:00","text":"不是合理，坦白講……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:01:29.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:01:30.571000+08:00","text":"不會怪怪的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T12:01:30.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:01:33.093000+08:00","text":"委員講的也言過其實啦，所以……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:01:33.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:01:34.834000+08:00","text":"言過其實喔？所以……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T12:01:35.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:01:37.717000+08:00","text":"你剛才講說工程會打造臺灣奇蹟，這個不是工程會……","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:01:38.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:01:41.279000+08:00","text":"那算了，那回到這個，你不覺得看這個怪怪的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T12:01:41.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:01:50.767000+08:00","text":"這就因為每個採購有它訂定的採購合約、它要採購的東西，而且你舉的個案，有的是……","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:01:51.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:01:52.989000+08:00","text":"我的建議是這樣子啦……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T12:01:53.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:02:10.523000+08:00","text":"你舉的個案有的是貿易，它的性質是貿易而不是生產的廠商，今天如果我一個做茶葉的廠商，我要去投標生產火藥，當然這是資格不符，如果說這個公司的營業項目，這個也牽涉到……","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:02:12.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:02:36.734000+08:00","text":"這個就是我現在的要求，因為我自己也做過很多的政府採購案，基本上來講我是覺得，公家部門在這個地方，可能工程會可以去要求，就是說它不見得是形式審查，商業登記那部分我花個幾百塊就有了，我勾一個資訊服務項目，我就可以去標，這樣子來講代表的是說，我們的機關單位要去做到實質的審查。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:02:38.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:02:54.912000+08:00","text":"像茶葉行去做資安這個也是，他就是原本沒有得標的公司，他是被停權的嘛，所以他再找一個友好廠商去標，標完之後再轉包給他，所以我派出去的員工也不是我這一個得標廠商的員工。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:02:56.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:03:01.014000+08:00","text":"所以，我要求的是，我們要解決問題嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:03:01.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:03:10.300000+08:00","text":"所以我是覺得要能夠要求或者是工程會去抽檢，就是實質的廠商資格的審查，去包含他的專案實績嘛。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:03:11.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:03:35.501000+08:00","text":"第二個，剛剛很多委員也都問過的，就是現在很多被停權的公司開一大堆子公司，負責人透過友好廠商去標的，然後他可能也用他自己以前的理監事再去登記一些不同的公司等等，那這些東西在你們現在工程會的，不管是優質廠商、黑名單廠商，有沒有這樣子的稽核？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T12:03:37.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:03:41.904000+08:00","text":"我們當然可以稽核，包括這個廠商的履歷都會提供一個資料庫給這個相……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:03:43.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:03:43.525000+08:00","text":"稽核準不準？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T12:03:43.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:03:46.666000+08:00","text":"相關的採購機關。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T12:03:46.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:03:53.428000+08:00","text":"甚至我們採購法的修正，本來要防杜這種停權了又換個公司或子公司……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:03:54.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:03:55.149000+08:00","text":"沒關係，就是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T12:03:55.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:03:56.149000+08:00","text":"這個本來在修法裡面就要來處理……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:03:55.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:04:02.191000+08:00","text":"我希望可以給我一個報告，因為我覺得這個東西很重要，因為二十幾年來都是這種問題，好不好？好。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:04:02.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:04:28.098000+08:00","text":"再來，接下來第二個問題，因為我來自資通訊產業，政府很多資訊服務系統的採購，我們資服業二十幾年來，包含軟體公會、TCA（臺北市電腦公會）、電電公會、各城市的電腦公會等等，其實IT資訊採購跟我們一般造橋鋪路是完全不一樣的，同意吧？主委。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T12:04:30.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:04:32.231000+08:00","text":"這個當然是不一樣啦。對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:04:32.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:04:44.963000+08:00","text":"所以這裡頭我列的這幾個問題，我相信各個工程會的主委應該都很清楚，第一個，這個規格很難定嘛，然後資安合規在一開始就要下去，而不是等到最後再去做資安的合規檢測嘛。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:04:44.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:05:05.115000+08:00","text":"因為你前面資格難定，實施的機關單位又沒辦法去control（控制）這一個規格的變化，所以需求一直變更，然後廠商就覺得說你又變更規格，我做下去又沒有利潤，所以慢慢地就會形成劣幣驅逐良幣，就一路一路做下去。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:05:05.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:05:32.427000+08:00","text":"然後這個技術迭代又很快，所以那時候我們就覺得說，很棒啊，這也是你們工程會前副主委葉哲良那時候找了數發部制定了資訊服務系統採購指引，後面113年還定了雲服務的採購範本，這些都是指引、範本，我們業界覺得不錯了，有進步，吵了二十幾年，但是我們希望是入法。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:05:34.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:05:45.973000+08:00","text":"我們很期待你的修法，但是沒有看到這一塊，所以我們就覺得說，你們的採購法修法是不是可以列入這一塊，好好去思考，可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:05:47.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:05:59.501000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，坦白講有關資訊的採購，確實誠如委員所講，它具有相當的專業性，所以原則上，我們這一塊當然都是跟數發部，還有跟……","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:06:00.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:06:02.043000+08:00","text":"數發部推給你，你知道嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:06:02.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:06:16.592000+08:00","text":"所以我們後來就把它化為一個行政命令還有採購範本，但是因為依我們現在對它的理解，因為它並沒有牽涉到整個採購法說哪一個條文要去修改，它基本上還是整個現有採購法的架構底下……","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:06:18.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:06:22.437000+08:00","text":"對，我們是希望……你要我修改也可以啊，我是可以幫你列入專章喔。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"陳副主任委員為祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:06:22.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:06:32.045000+08:00","text":"如果委員有比較具體的、到底是針對哪一條的建議，我們也很歡迎可以提供給我們，我們確實不是這方面的專家。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:06:32.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:06:44.796000+08:00","text":"好，我覺得會後我們可以找個時間好好討論，因為我也找了葉哲良、我也找了當時寫這些……因為當時我們資訊業界公會都有參與，我是覺得這個東西，指引沒有人要看啦！","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:06:46.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:06:48.055000+08:00","text":"假設我是一個執行單位，不遵守指引會怎樣？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳主任委員金德","start":"2026-04-13T12:06:49.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:06:55.644000+08:00","text":"這就是我們採購法裡面這次要修的剛性契約的修訂啦，所以……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:06:55.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:07:20.747000+08:00","text":"對嘛，所以我說拜託，我們政府是AI行動內閣，這一定要讓它入法，所以我的要求就是，資訊服務採購的作業指引是可以入法的，這個會後我們是可以討論的，幫我們的產業做一點，因為臺灣是數位資通訊的王國，可是我們的軟體應用服務系統是很糟糕的，政府的採購也很糟糕，所以我們希望能夠把這一段補強，好不好？好。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-04-13T12:07:20.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:07:21.090000+08:00","text":"這可以嘛？謝謝。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T12:07:21.590000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:07:24.447143+08:00","text":"謝謝洪毓祥委員的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T12:07:24.747143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:07:31.890000+08:00","text":"我們接著有請林楚茵委員發言，林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T12:07:32.190000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:07:37.904286+08:00","text":"請楊瓊瓔委員發言，楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T12:07:38.204286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:07:40.775714+08:00","text":"接著請游顥委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}