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謝謝主席 有請工程會主委有請陳主委好 主委很早"},{"start":17.768,"end":41.936,"text":"我想今天大概兩個問題而已在前一陣子來講我們國防採購的大漏洞對不對室內裝修商福邁國際的話可以去標炸藥原料大石國際協商可以去做步槍的抵火更扯的是我們的茶行可以去標這些資安海軍的伺服器等等所以呢在我們過去的這段時間發生的時候我們就覺得"},{"start":45.438,"end":71.453,"text":"台灣的奇蹟很厲害從小本生意做到國安軍火那除了這個之外如果再把過去的歷史高端環球小吃店可以去標16.5億的快篩超市公司50萬資本一人公司可以去做超過這麼多資本額的一個案子那我們的結論就覺得說很厲害這些茶要配炸藥小吃配快篩"},{"start":73.46,"end":85.783,"text":"這是另類的台灣奇蹟比我們護國神山還要厲害我想要問主委是發生這些事情工程會有沒有什麼樣的做法作為"},{"start":87.734,"end":109.671,"text":"請教主委跟委員說明這個政務採購法裡面這個採購單位他本來就可以增訂他採購的項目設定禮約的能力跟他的資格那麼或者是相關的法規都有那採購單位他可以根據這個可以訂定所以你覺得這樣子是合理的嗎"},{"start":110.489,"end":136.53,"text":"不是合理的坦白講會不會怪怪的委員講的也言過其實啦所以言過其實啦所以說工程會打造台灣奇蹟這個是那算了那回到這個你不覺得看這個怪怪的嗎這就因為每個採購有他的這個訂定的這個採購的合約啦他的這個要採購的東西而且你舉的個案我的建議是這樣子啦你舉的個案有的是貿易"},{"start":137.691,"end":159.188,"text":"他有的是他是貿易並不是廠商今天如果說我如果一個做茶葉的廠商我要去投生產生產火藥那個當然這個是資格不符如果說他這個公司他的營業項目這個牽涉到這個就是我現在的要求就是說因為我自己也做過很多的政府採購案"},{"start":160.629,"end":178.754,"text":"基本上來講我是覺得公家部門在這個地方可能工程會可以去要求就是說它不見得是刑事審查商業登記那個我花了幾百塊就有了我勾一個資訊服務項目我就可以去標這樣子來講是代表是說我們的機關單位要去做到實質的審查"},{"start":180.376,"end":196.932,"text":"像這個像這個茶葉行去做這個資安的話也是啊他就是原本沒有得標的公司他是被停權的嘛所以我再找一個我友好廠商去標標完之後再轉包給他所以我派出去的員工也不是我這一個得標廠商的員工"},{"start":198.191,"end":220.506,"text":"所以我是要求的是說這些都過去沒有問題我們要解決問題嘛所以我是覺得要能夠要求或者是工程會去抽檢就是實質的廠商的資格的審查去包含他的專案時機嘛那第二個剛剛很多委員都問過的就是我們現在很多被停權的公司開一大堆子公司啦"},{"start":221.57,"end":237.922,"text":"負責人透過友好廠商去標的然後他可能也用他自己的這些以前的理監事再去登記一些不同的公司等等這些東西在你們現在工程會的這些不管是優質廠商 黑名單廠商有沒有這樣子的集合"},{"start":239.202,"end":264.832,"text":"我們當然可以集合啦包括這個廠商的履歷都會提供有個資料庫給這個集合準不準相關的這個採購機關甚至我們採購法的修正本來要防度這種停權了又換個公司或子公司這沒關係就是我希望是可以給我一個報告因為我覺得這個東西很重要因為二十幾年來都是這種問題啊好不好再來"},{"start":266.292,"end":290.118,"text":"接下來第二個問題這個是因為我從資通訊產業來這個我們資訊服務政府很多資訊服務系統的採購我們資服務業20幾年來包含軟體工會TCA台北市電腦工會電電工會各程式的這些的電腦工會等等其實IT資訊採購跟我一般造橋部是完全不一樣的同意吧 主委"},{"start":292.009,"end":315.171,"text":"這個當然是不一樣所以這裡頭我列了這幾個問題我相信各個工程會的主委應該都很清楚第一個 這個規格很難定然後我資安在合規一開始就要下去而不是等到最後再來去做資安的合規檢測因為你前面資格難定就是實施的機關單位他又沒辦法去控制這個規格的變化"},{"start":316.872,"end":339.478,"text":"所以需求一直變更然後廠商就覺得說你又變更規格我做下去我又沒有利潤所以慢慢的就是形成劣幣就驅逐良幣就一路一路做下去然後這個技術迭代又很快所以那時候我們就覺得說很棒啊這也是你們工程會前副主委葉澤良那時候找了速發部去訂了資訊服務系統採購指引後面113年還訂了雲服務的採購的範本"},{"start":346.223,"end":367.973,"text":"可是這些都是指引範本我們業界覺得不錯了有進步炒了20幾年但是我們希望是錄法可是我們就很期待你的這個修改修法但是沒有看到這一塊所以我們就覺得說你們的採購法修法是不是可以列入這一塊好好去思考可以嗎"},{"start":369.973,"end":398.612,"text":"跟委員報告坦白講有關資訊的採購確實陳如仁所講的他具有相當的專業性所以因為上面我們這一塊當然都是跟速發部還有跟速發部推給你知道嗎所以我們後來就是把它化為一個行政命令還有採購範本但是因為我們現在對他的理解因為他並沒有牽涉到整個採購法說哪一個條要去修改他基本上還是整個現有採購法的"},{"start":400.234,"end":426.816,"text":"我們是希望 你看我修改也可以我是可以幫你列一列專章如果委員有比較具體的到底是針對哪一條我們也很歡迎說可以提供給我們因為我們確實不是這方面的專家好 那我是覺得會後我們可以找個時間好好討論因為我也找了葉澤良我也找了當時我們寫這些因為當時我們資訊業界公會都有參與我是覺得這個東西指引沒有人要看"},{"start":427.758,"end":430.055,"text":"指引我假設我是一個執行單位不遵守會怎樣"},{"start":431.96,"end":461.019,"text":"這個就是我們採購法裡面這次要修的剛性契約的修訂所以我說拜託台灣是我們政府是AI行動內閣這一點要記住所以我的要求就是資訊服務採購的作業指引可以是入法的我們這個會後是可以討論的幫我們的產業做一點因為台灣是數位通訊數位資通訊的王國可是我們的軟體應用服務系統是很糟糕的政府的採購也很糟糕所以我們希望能夠把這一段補強"},{"start":461.84,"end":463.09,"text":"好不好好這可以嗎好謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}