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海巡署有請親海巡署委員好"},{"start":14.349,"end":41.004,"text":"武安辛苦了這個監察院去年9月16號有一個內部調查報告指出就針對今天跟今天的主題相關的也就是說海巡署的岸際監控能力他做了一個這個內部的調查報告說由雷達紅外線熱顯像然後再到智慧的岸際監控系統然後最後是人力組成的守望哨大概是四個層面來進行組成但這段時間發生很多的橡皮艇啊就是走這種灰色地帶也好或怎麼樣"},{"start":42.164,"end":64.078,"text":"來做滲透登陸的事件而且其實都在本來海巡署的監偵範圍之內所以它當然是一個有待優化的這樣子的一個防衛的機制那監察院的報告顯示說原因包含第一雷達對於小型目標相比艇的掌控能力當然就有所不足第二是光學目獲系統的自動化跟共同作戰圖像的整合性有待加強"},{"start":64.878,"end":83.001,"text":"第三是守望哨跟雷達組成的尖針有的時候會有空窗的一個狀況所以海巡署應該要檢討跟調整那麼海巡署在報告裡面有講就是說配合國土安全的任性特別預算也就是我們之前通過的要規劃籌建最先進的雷達設備導入AN4能判讀等等那針對光學幕後系統也講也在積極規劃籌建熱顯像系統環島智慧暗記監控系統等等那麼就有這些"},{"start":94.723,"end":112.571,"text":"這樣子的一些說法那今天既然有排熱質詢相關專案報告我們當然就希望可以聽到比較具體的說法因為你當然每一次這個大家都講說我在積極籌備我在做規劃我在做整理但問題是具體的這個目標跟內容是什麼我想這個充分的說明是有必要的所以我今天要問海軍署"},{"start":113.471,"end":130.281,"text":"這第一個這個執行準備計畫你本來就應該要詳細說明首先我問有關暗記雷達系統你講說未來導入AI判讀那熱顯像系統跟智慧型暗記監控系統好像還是要人工方式判讀這個科技跟人力之間如何協調來降低漏判或誤判的風險請回答"},{"start":131.976,"end":157.942,"text":"各位報告非常感謝委員對於我們海巡組的特別預算有支持所以我們很順利的編列了284億的特別預算這中間裡面就是有剛剛委員講的那幾項第一個有關新制雷達的部分我們現在新制雷達是比舊的雷達還聰明我們現在這三個系統裡面我們全部會導入AI"},{"start":159.602,"end":178.238,"text":"去做然後我們有一個另外一個建案就是把整個海域的狀況一個COP整個海域狀況把它連結串聯起來也就是剛剛委員提到的部分就是後續的兩項沒有辦法整合的部分我們會利用這個建案裡面就全部把它整合起來就是全部導入A來做判別然後"},{"start":178.999,"end":194.284,"text":"彼此之間的連結跟這個資訊的互通那所以剛剛委員擔心的這個問題我們會在這一次裡面全部把它一次解決你這個跟你報告講就是一樣的概念嘛就是我們要導入AI我們要進行整備那我想今天要講詳細一點比如說你現在整備到什麼程度了"},{"start":196.384,"end":212.569,"text":"我們現在的岸基雷達我們現在開始在做標案116年雷達跟紅花仙熱影像還有環島智慧型監控跟港軍監控這四項所有的監控系統會在116年全部完成"},{"start":213.129,"end":239.227,"text":"所以116年 年初 年終 年底 全面建置完成那個因為預算結算是在到年底但是有一部分會在115年就會做結束因為它是階段性的因為還考慮到那個招標廠商的量能還有我們的基地的建置所以它不可能一次在一個年度把它做完我們分兩個年度把它全部做完沒關係 會有提供詳細書面報告因為其實既然我們都知道你會往這個方向做而且也應該往這個方向做"},{"start":239.927,"end":266.287,"text":"立法院也通過預算 支持你們往這個方向去做那現在大家在監督進度啊我的預算既然通過了 我執行總要有效果吧到115年年底 今年年底 大家可以做完哪些事116年年初年終年底 分別做完哪些事這個還是要詳細說明啦這免得監察院也提報告 立法院排列專案報告但都沒有進展 這樣是很可惜的事 好不好這我相信既然大家都有做 那就多交代讓大家比較安心第二個是圖資的部分啊"},{"start":266.847,"end":284.945,"text":"這個圖資的部分我們還有一位主委是很會做圖啊還PO臉書對不對但大家知道重點嘛是真正你這些真正掌握情勢的圖資你內部在防止滲透的各式各樣的圖資你能不能做有效的整合然後做大家看的其實是結果你有沒有辦法有效防堵圖資的部分核整備進度是不是說明一下"},{"start":285.405,"end":307.63,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在所有的海面監控的圖資包括國防部包括有軍給的圖資他本來就是那個我們勤職整個早上我們每天早上都會開都在做的嘛就都在做的都在做部分那另外那個剛剛委員有特別提到就是那個管株委員的這個圖資部分我這邊要特別跟說明很多次了不用再說明了啦我知道啦"},{"start":308.03,"end":333.021,"text":"就是說那是他自己在做的我知道但關鍵是你剛剛你講說你本來就有國防部的友軍提供的你自己整理的圖資都會做整合對不對但是今天之所以會被監察院提出來說要檢討就是因為這些圖資顯然掛一漏萬嘛這些特殊的滲透式的小型載具等等還有問題嘛所以我要問你的問題是你在最新的整備或者是升級的過程之中怎麼樣防渡這樣的狀況再次出現回答這個問題就好了謝謝"},{"start":334.454,"end":351.691,"text":"我您講的是說小目標沒有辦法 投資等等 或者說你怎麼整合去防堵可能的滲透風險嘛特別跟委員報告我們現在所有的包括海面 包括空中的情證這些東西都會進到平台裡面來那也就是我們的雷情會分享給國防部跟友軍單位"},{"start":353.212,"end":375.925,"text":"國安部的部分 海情部份 包括海面目標部份也會分享到海巡署來所以它的圖示是共用的 而且在平台上面可以完全呈現所以在剛剛講到有圖示錄像是沒有問題的現在是監察院提醒你的部分是這樣就是說你都有圖嘛 你有很多嘛但你怎麼去分類 然後怎麼精準掌握嘛去避免這樣的狀況出現嘛 這個才是現在的問題吧"},{"start":376.905,"end":396.592,"text":"對 跟委員報案 因為監察院調查那是兩年前的事我們現在已經慢慢的在改善 未來的部分 投資的部分會整合在一起不會有剛剛講的部分就是 這一個是歸這個 那個是歸那個未來會整合在一起 會整個呈現在一個COP整個平台裡面"},{"start":397.752,"end":425.358,"text":"就是說你在每個階段之後你做了哪一些的優化讓那個分裂可以清楚然後讓大家的掌握可以更明白一樣你就按照剛剛前面我們講嘛就是你雷達系統等等的升級有個時間表的改善方式一樣會做書面說明就可以了可以嗎好不好我們就要提醒這個事第三個我要補充一下就是說現在大家都講嘛這無人機可能是未來戰場上很重要的堅真嘛它是戰場上的眼睛一樣那同樣海巡署我在做岸際巡防等等的時候當然也需要無人機那無人機這個"},{"start":426.838,"end":445.34,"text":"如同剛剛您回答的就是說在特別預算裡面也編200多億148億是這個提升你的這個巡查量能無人機的部分40億基本上都通過只有少量凍結所以你該做的還是可以做的預算也都給了對不對但是我看到裡面有寫說你現在只用懸疑型的"},{"start":446.241,"end":460.437,"text":"舊型載具嘛那舊型載具的缺點是這樣第一個續航力50分鐘但是關鍵是抗風係數可能比較低一點這大家都知道無人機怕風嘛吹跑了就不穩了那海上作業那抗風係數是更重要所以是不夠的"},{"start":461.058,"end":477.653,"text":"所以你講說我要做新型的無人機懸疑事辦計畫提升續航力跟這個抗風可是後來引擎技術出了問題啊驗收不合格造成了沒有辦法處理的狀況所以解約了好啦那現在怎麼辦呢我的無人機第二階段我的升級我現在最新的招標狀況我目標新買的無人機的內容是什麼騎乘是什麼"},{"start":482.237,"end":499.433,"text":"這個也是要說明一下我們把它公布起來吧特別跟委員報告我們107年就建立就開始使用無人機我想應該是公共機關裡面最早使用無人機來做徵收跟救生救難但是那一代的無人機因為那個時空環境影響其實它的無人機的效能是很差的"},{"start":500.033,"end":517.036,"text":"這不是 但是現在因為無人機突圍猛進所以我們剛剛委員講的部分講的是我們二代機那二代機因為廠商沒有達到我們的要求所以他就解約但是我們那個案子已經解約完了以後我們重新起案那案子也順利的招標我們現在是有第二代機已經招標結束所以是可以同樣廠商做嗎"},{"start":517.797,"end":537.455,"text":"不一樣 不一樣 不一樣 完全不一樣那第二代的無人機的滯空 抗風 跟徵收效能比第一代好太多了好太多了所以我們已經 我們在今年的六月份會交機那目前是在做接機跟教育訓練接機 現在是四月 所以還有一個多月全部交完嘛 還是分批交機"},{"start":539.076,"end":567.102,"text":"全部交完還是分批全部交全部都交完OK有要補充說明的嗎可以補充說明沒關係是好是全部交機是我們希望這次引擎這些都沒有問題沒有問題那個規格非常好而且我們有做POC整個實際實測過了從嘉義飛到澎湖再回來OK也都測試過了測試過了我們希望這個東西如期如質的來進行整備跟處理是主要是這樣我想立法院對於這些東西基本上所謂是支持的是好海軍署請回謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":568.742,"end":595.567,"text":"這 國安局長有請請國安局長好 謝謝主席喔 劉委員好局長 辛苦了這個這個我 我請教一下啦這當然您比較專業 但沒有關係啦這監察院的調查報告裡面曾經有指出喔 這國防部啊這為了避免滲透嘛 我們今天討論的是這個主題嘛避免這個不提高這個對於滲透的警覺性所以國防部有設計 比如說天威測考 比如說不確"},{"start":596.647,"end":625.331,"text":"這自己派特戰部隊去做試驗嘛看看我們的平常的官兵在營舍裡面等等有沒有是否具備充足的這個警覺性那有做了很多次的這個做為一個考評的標準這當然都是很好的事情啊提升警覺性這是強化戰備的一部分那國安局長你從國安的角度就我們的政府機關等等這樣的一個角度你有沒有相關的這樣子一些機制或是測驗啊因為最近好多共諜一樣很危險對不對我們內部集合把控的這樣子的一些機制你的努力是什麼你要不要說明一下"},{"start":625.891,"end":648.412,"text":"因為這部分 因為國安局也是中共滲透的重要目標我們本身在不管是保防或反情報滲透都有一個機制在那包括有定期的進行移測那移測大概全中華民國政府裡面做的最積極最平面的應該是本局做測謊的概念另外只要有任何的出國回來也都還要再進行"},{"start":649.153,"end":670.17,"text":"相關的一個歸尋跟移測來避免到在海外有被接觸的一個狀況那另外我們的督察單位也都會有定期的來針對我們的同仁做必要的一個訪談跟清詢那來提醒同仁注意一下回憶一下最近有沒有被接觸所以我們是有一個機制在運作你剛剛提的都是有關於局裡面內部的"},{"start":672.191,"end":689.152,"text":"集合跟建設其實每一局都要有這樣的一個觀念就因應這樣的可能的狀況那你作為國安的這個主管機關那其他局處的針對內部的這樣子的一個反對滲透或者是防制滲透的這樣的各種措施啊政府各機關對不對因為他是無所不在嘛那你們的做法是什麼"},{"start":689.292,"end":707.078,"text":"所以我們大概分幾個部分一個部分是把我們自己本身局內的這樣的一個反滲透的機制把它完善好那另外就是跟我們的國安情報機關總共11個機關我們也把我們的經驗跟這11個機關來做分享那另外就是推展到政府的部分那因為調查局是負責我們政府整體的安查跟特查"},{"start":707.478,"end":725.605,"text":"那調查局也是我們的國安情報機關裡面的協同情報機關所以我們也會把這部分有些過去的一些案例的一些狀況讓調查局在進行政府的這些相關的反情報的滲透當中也能夠依照過去的一個經驗來做一個比較完善機制的建立"},{"start":725.925,"end":740.292,"text":"好 那本席提醒一下嘛 因為各 其實這應該是各個部會啦 甚至是其他都要有一些警覺性要有所提高那國安局這個地方作為 你可能是示範 或者是你內部有一些有做合理的分享 然後分不同的層次 警告的敏感度我們也有針對一些比較高風險的局處 可能要做部會啦"},{"start":746.034,"end":761.049,"text":"目標對象也是有一個高風險的名單我本期在這邊做一下提醒希望這個部分看看彼此之間借財一些情報防治的這些經驗能夠讓滲透的狀況可以降到最低謝謝 國安局長請回主席我可以再要一分鐘嗎我請陸委會副主委請陸委會副主委謝謝主席"},{"start":775.919,"end":804.668,"text":"委員好 副主委吳安這很多委員今天都趁機講一下這個政協會的一些狀況那我直接切入重點因為今天總統府說嘛這個實相措施以及等等相關的這個後續如果有誠意就要跟政府來進行協商那當然嘛這個世界各國也很多人都講樂於對話對話也不要只跟在野黨對話如果跟執政黨跟政府可以有效對話都對於緩解兩岸關係是有一定正面的一個幫助副主委你同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":806.127,"end":826.017,"text":"同意啊所有的兩岸之間的措施都是應該跟台灣民選政府對話的你講得真好現在總統府現在講說有誠意就要來協商你覺得這只是一個純粹的政治喊話呢還是有打算付諸實際行動我們其實已經跟對岸講了很多次了譬如說團客的觀光"},{"start":827.477,"end":847.791,"text":"這個部分我們希望能夠來協商小兩會的能夠來磋商但是他們到現在為止一直不肯回覆嘛所以就卡在這裡所以我今天問了嘛就是說今天既然大家都講對話這件事好像蠻重要的我們先不設大家彼此的政治立場或者是怎麼也好但是我現在要問的只有你現在陸委會介紹的只是要把它正式付諸行動了嗎"},{"start":849.193,"end":862.838,"text":"還是就只是今天講一講新聞對付過去就算了因為每一件事情他們單方面宣布之後我們就要看他有沒有要找我們討論然後或者是說他們希望他們要怎麼樣接下來進行那"},{"start":864.899,"end":890.178,"text":"所以譬如說他們昨天講說這個上海福建的自由行那這個部分我們就等他們提出來他們要有一個正式的東西不是說發個新聞稿發個新聞稿我們沒辦法處理事情這本席不反對啦就是說各個政黨執政也好債也好如果有辦法用對話的方式來降低兩岸衝突的風險我想對於國家安全都有一定幫助它不是唯一的方法但它是有效的方法之一"},{"start":890.748,"end":917.181,"text":"那我現在比較擔心的是因為這一連串的過程國內當然就草翻天了嘛對不對那我現在想的是這政府屢次喊話你們也希望跟中國大陸有一個穩定的對話管道但是好像一直都沒有辦法往前推進所以你的立場跟你的方法之間總要有總要可以對稱嘛就是我有你執政黨有執政黨要堅持的地方但是你在堅持這樣立場的時候你用什麼樣的方法可以既堅持你的立場又完成對話的目標陸委會針對這樣有沒有準備"},{"start":920.39,"end":943.465,"text":"如果對方還是堅持什麼九二共識反獨的立場才能夠對話協商那這個基本上可能性就不大但是我們希望說兩岸之間除了這個政治前提之外大家畢竟都還有很多往來的需求嘛那如果他們硬是要抓住這個前提否則其他什麼都不談的話那就沒辦法"},{"start":944.124,"end":954.842,"text":"所以你剛剛講的其實還是立場嘛就是說你政府有政府要守住這我完全尊重因為大家政治立場本來就可以不一樣民主社會是這樣但在立場跟方法出現衝突的時候你的選擇是什麼我們政府的選擇是什麼"},{"start":956.294,"end":983.295,"text":"政府的選擇是中華民國的生存啊中華民國如果不能生存下去那其他利益都不用談了所以某些政治前提如果你危及到中華民國的生存那其他的說你說能夠賣多少的鳳梨或是柑橘所以我就講眼下你現在面對這些狀況的時候你的選擇是什麼現在就是所謂有思想措施啊也沒有談到別的東西對吧"},{"start":984.667,"end":1008.135,"text":"這十項措施從我們的角度來看其實就是新瓶裝舊酒啦新瓶裝舊酒其實都不是什麼大禮包啦現在大家講的好像很了不起其實在我們看來是一碗甜不辣想要換到一盅佛跳牆大概就是這樣所以在這個過程中會選擇堅持立場方法就算了是吧"},{"start":1009.135,"end":1034.657,"text":"我們還是希望對方能夠如果你想要做什麼那你就可以直接跟我們政府來對話現在是溫情喊話看有沒有辦法成就這個事沒關係溫情喊話也是方法之一沒關係本席不做任何預設立場我們中華民國現在需要的是什麼需要很多方法大家都有不同立場我們已經很清楚了大家都知道但是我們需要有解決事情的方法這是我給陸委會你們的本職工作是促進交流這是本席的層次的提醒時間已經到了我們就不多談了謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:22:48.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:22:50.952000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，海巡署有請。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T12:22:50.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:22:51.413000+08:00","text":"請海巡署。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:23:01.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:23:01.724000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:23:02.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:23:03.029000+08:00","text":"午安，辛苦了。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:23:04.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:23:39.170000+08:00","text":"監察院去年9月16日有個內部調查報告，跟今天這個主題相關，海巡署的岸際監控能力，是由雷達、紅外線熱顯像，到智慧岸際監控系統，最後是人力組成的守望哨，大概由這四個層面進行組成，但是這段時間發生很多橡皮艇走灰色地帶或滲透登陸的事件，而且都是在海巡署原本的監偵範圍之內，所以這當然是一個有待優化的防衛機制。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:23:40.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:23:59.779000+08:00","text":"監察院的報告指出原因包含：第一，雷達對於小型目標橡皮艇的掌控能力有所不足；第二，光學目獲系統自動化跟共同作戰圖像的整合性有待加強；第三，守望哨跟雷達組成的監偵，有時候會有空窗的狀況，所以海巡署應該要檢討跟調整。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:24:00.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:24:10.241000+08:00","text":"海巡署在報告裡面有講，配合國土安全韌性特別預算，也就是我們之前通過的，要規劃籌建最先進的雷達設備，導入AI智能判讀等等，針對光學目獲系統，也在積極規劃籌建熱顯像系統、環島智慧岸際監控系統等等。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:24:23.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:24:37.249000+08:00","text":"今天既然有排這個質詢和相關的專案報告，我們當然希望可以聽到比較具體的說法，因為每一次大家都說在積極籌備、規劃、整理，問題是具體的目標跟內容是什麼？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:24:37.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:24:58.161000+08:00","text":"我想充分說明是有必要的，因為執行整備計畫你本來就應該要詳細說明，所以我今天要問海巡署，第一個，有關岸際雷達系統，你說未來要導入AI判讀，而熱顯像系統跟智慧型岸際監控系統，好像還是要人工方式判讀，科技跟人力之間如何協調，以降低漏判或誤判的風險？","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:24:58.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:24:58.261000+08:00","text":"請回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:25:00.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:25:12.079000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，非常感謝委員對於海巡署特別預算的支持，所以我們很順利地編列了284億的特別預算……","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:25:12.079000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:25:13.659000+08:00","text":"對，錢沒有少給啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:25:13.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:25:25.922000+08:00","text":"這裡面就是有剛剛委員講的那幾項，第一個有關新式雷達部分，現在的新式雷達比舊的雷達還聰明，現在這三個系統全部會導入AI。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:25:28.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:25:36.490000+08:00","text":"另外我們有一個建案，就是把整個海域的狀況連結、串聯起來成為一個COP，也就是剛剛委員提到的部分……","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:25:36.490000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:25:37.491000+08:00","text":"圖資的整合嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:25:37.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:25:55.242000+08:00","text":"後續兩項沒有辦法整合的部分，我們會利用這個建案，全部把它整合起來，就是全部導入AI來判別，然後彼此之間的連結跟資訊會互通，所以剛剛委員擔心的這個問題，我們會在這次全部把它一次解決。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:25:55.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:26:02.264000+08:00","text":"這個跟你報告講的是一樣的概念，就是要導入AI、要進行整備，我想今天要講詳細一點，比如現在整備到什麼程度了？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:26:02.264000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:26:05.505000+08:00","text":"到什麼時候會完成全部的整備？","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:26:05.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:26:21.890000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，關於岸際雷達，我們現在開始在做標案了，雷達跟紅外線熱影像，還有環島智慧型監控跟港區監控，這四項所有的監控系統，會在116年全部完成。116年？是。","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:26:22.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:26:23.791000+08:00","text":"年初、年中、年底？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:26:24.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:26:25.312000+08:00","text":"全面建置完成。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:26:25.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:26:26.773000+08:00","text":"因為預算決算是到年底……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:26:27.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:26:27.934000+08:00","text":"到年底？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:26:28.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:26:41.183000+08:00","text":"但是有一部分在115年就會結束，因為它是階段性的，還要考慮到招標廠商的量能以及我們機電建置，不可能一次在一個年度做完，所以我們分兩個年度把它全部做完。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:26:41.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:26:42.563000+08:00","text":"沒關係，會後提供詳細書面報告。是。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:26:43.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:26:55.613000+08:00","text":"既然我們都知道你會往這個方向做，而且也應該往這個方向做，立法院也通過預算，支持你們往這個方向去做，那現在大家就監督進度，預算既然通過了，執行總要有效果嘛！","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:26:56.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:26:58.595000+08:00","text":"到了115年底、今年年底，大概可以做完哪些事？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:26:59.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:27:01.817000+08:00","text":"116年年初、年中、年底，分別做完哪些事？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:27:02.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:27:08.502000+08:00","text":"這個部分還是要詳細說明，免得監察院提報告，立法院也排專案報告，但是都沒有進展，這樣是很可惜的事，好不好？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:27:08.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:27:12.746000+08:00","text":"既然大家都有做，那就多交代，讓大家比較安心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:27:13.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:27:18.050000+08:00","text":"第二個是圖資的部分，海委會主委很會做圖，還po臉書，對不對？","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:27:18.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:27:26.739000+08:00","text":"但大家知道重點是，這些真正掌握情資的圖資、內部在防止滲透各式各樣的圖資，能不能做有效的整合？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:27:27.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:27:30.002000+08:00","text":"大家看的其實是結果，你有沒有辦法做有效的防堵？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:27:30.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:27:32.925000+08:00","text":"圖資的部分如何整備，進度是不是說明一下？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:27:33.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:27:42.707000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們現在所有的海面監控圖資，包括國防部、包括友軍給的圖資，本來就是……有關情資整合的部分，我們每天早上都會開會……","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:27:42.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:27:43.527000+08:00","text":"都有在做嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:27:44.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:27:44.507000+08:00","text":"都有在做。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:27:45.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:27:53.209000+08:00","text":"另外剛剛委員有特別提到，關於管主委的圖資部分，我這邊要特別跟……","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:27:53.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:27:55.610000+08:00","text":"你說明很多次，不用再說明了，我知道啦！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:27:56.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:27:57.051000+08:00","text":"那是他自己在做的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:27:58.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:28:03.973000+08:00","text":"關鍵是你剛剛講，本來國防部的、友軍提供的、你們自己整理的圖資，都會整合，對不對？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:28:03.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:28:12.897000+08:00","text":"但是今天之所以會被監察院提出來要檢討，就是圖資顯然掛一漏萬，這些特殊的、滲透式的、小型載具等等就有問題嘛！","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:28:13.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:28:20.660000+08:00","text":"所以我要問的問題是，你在最新的整備或者是升級的過程之中，怎麼樣防杜這樣的狀況再次出現？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:28:20.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:28:21.021000+08:00","text":"回答這個問題就好了，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:28:22.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:28:24.756000+08:00","text":"委員，您講的是小目標沒辦法掌握，還是……對啊！","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:28:25.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:28:28.560000+08:00","text":"圖資等等，或者你怎麼整合去防堵可能的滲透風險，針對這個回答就好了。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:28:29.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:28:54.519000+08:00","text":"特別跟委員報告，我們現在所有的，包括海面、包括空中聯合情監偵的部分，都會進到平臺裡面來，也就是我們的雷情會分享給國防部跟友軍單位，而國防部海情的部分，包括海面目標也會分享到海巡署來，所有圖資是共用的，而且在平臺上面可以完全呈現，所以剛剛講到有圖資落差的部分，是沒有問題的。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:28:54.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:28:59.162000+08:00","text":"現在監察院提醒你的部分是這樣，就是你都有圖，你有很多嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:28:59.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:29:02.984000+08:00","text":"但是你要怎麼去分類、怎麼精準掌握，以避免這樣的狀況出現？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:29:03.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:29:03.905000+08:00","text":"這個才是現在的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:29:04.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:29:11.367000+08:00","text":"對，跟委員報告，因為監察院調查是兩年前的事，但是我們現在已經慢慢在改善……","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:29:11.367000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:29:12.888000+08:00","text":"改善這個部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:29:12.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:29:24.572000+08:00","text":"然後未來圖資的部分會整合在一起，不會有剛剛講的這一個是歸這個，那個是歸那個的情形，未來會整合在一起，整個呈現在一個COP平臺裡面，所以這部分沒有問題。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:29:24.572000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:29:25.752000+08:00","text":"沒關係，這個也一樣嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:29:25.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:29:39.095000+08:00","text":"就是到每個階段之後，你做了哪一些優化，讓分類可以清楚，讓大家掌握可以更明白，你就按照剛剛前面我們講的，雷達系統等等升級有個時間表的改善方式，一樣會後書面說明就可以了，可以嗎？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:29:39.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:29:40.055000+08:00","text":"我們在提醒這個事。是，好。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:29:40.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:30:10.817000+08:00","text":"第三個我要補充一下，現在大家都講無人機可能是未來戰場上很重要的監偵工具，它像是戰場上的眼睛一樣，同樣海巡署在做岸際巡防等等的時候，當然也需要無人機，無人機如同剛剛您回答的，在特別預算裡面也編兩百多億，其中148億是提升巡查量能，無人機的部分是40億，基本上都通過，只有少量凍結，所以你該做的還是可以做的，預算也都給了，對不對？是。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:30:10.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:30:41.649000+08:00","text":"但是我看到裡面有寫，你現在只用旋翼型的舊型載具，而舊型載具的缺點是，第一個，續航力50分鐘，關鍵是抗風係數比較低一點，大家都知道無人機怕風，吹跑了就不穩了，海上作業抗風係數更重要，所以是不夠的，因此你講說你們要做新型的無人機旋翼試辦計畫，提升續航力跟抗風，可是後來引擎技術出了問題，驗收不合格，造成沒有辦法處理的狀況，所以解約了，那現在怎麼辦？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:30:42.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:30:52.179000+08:00","text":"包括無人機第二階段、升級的部分，現在最新的招標狀況、目標，新買的無人機的內容是什麼、期程是什麼，這個也是要說明一下，我們把這個洞補起來吧！","quality":0.82},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:30:52.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:31:02.068000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們107年就開始使用無人機，我想應該是公務機關裡面最早使用無人機做偵蒐跟救生救難。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:31:02.068000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:31:03.068000+08:00","text":"對、沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:31:02.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:31:23.855000+08:00","text":"但是那一代的無人機，因為那個時空環境下，其實無人機的效能是很差的，但是現在因為無人機突飛猛進，剛剛委員講的是我們的二代機，二代機的部分因為廠商沒有達到我們的要求，所以就解約了，但是那個案子解約完以後我們重新啟案，案子也順利招標，我們現在第二代機已經招標結束……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:31:24.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:31:25.036000+08:00","text":"所以是給同樣的廠商做嗎？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:31:26.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:31:27.359000+08:00","text":"不一樣、不一樣，完全不一樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:31:27.359000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:31:28.359000+08:00","text":"不一樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:31:28.359000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:31:29.359000+08:00","text":"更厲害？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:31:27.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:31:41.711000+08:00","text":"第二代無人機的滯空、抗風跟偵蒐效能比第一代好太多了，我們在今年的6月份會交機，目前在做接機跟教育訓練。接機？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:31:41.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:31:43.132000+08:00","text":"現在是4月，所以還有一個多月？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:31:43.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:31:44.132000+08:00","text":"是，大概兩個月的時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:31:43.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:31:45.455000+08:00","text":"全部交完還是分批交機？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:31:47.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:31:47.316000+08:00","text":"全部交。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:31:48.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:31:49.236000+08:00","text":"全部都交完？是。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:31:49.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:31:51.157000+08:00","text":"OK，有要補充說明的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:31:51.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:31:52.097000+08:00","text":"可以補充說明沒關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:31:53.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:31:54.518000+08:00","text":"全部交機？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:31:54.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:31:56.978000+08:00","text":"我們希望這次引擎這些都沒有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:31:56.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:32:05.660000+08:00","text":"沒問題、沒問題，那個規格非常好，而且我們有做POC，整個實測過了，從嘉義飛到澎湖再回來。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:32:05.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:32:06.240000+08:00","text":"也都測試過了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:32:06.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:32:06.720000+08:00","text":"測試過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:32:06.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:32:10.881000+08:00","text":"我們希望這個東西能如期如質的進行整備跟處理。是。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:32:10.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:32:14.962000+08:00","text":"只要是這樣，我想立法院對於這些東西基本上都會是支持的，海巡署請回，謝謝。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張副主任委員忠龍","start":"2026-04-13T12:32:15.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:32:15.102000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:32:16.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:32:19.142000+08:00","text":"國安局長有請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T12:32:19.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:32:23.683000+08:00","text":"請國安局長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:32:24.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:32:24.784000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，牛委員好。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:32:25.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:32:26.004000+08:00","text":"局長，辛苦了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:32:29.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:32:32.005000+08:00","text":"我請教一下，當然您比較專業，但沒有關係啦。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:32:32.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:32:58.559000+08:00","text":"監察院調查報告裡面曾經指出，國防部為了避免滲透，我們今天討論的是這個主題，為了提高對於滲透的警覺性，所以國防部有設計比如說天威測考，也就是說自己派特戰部隊去做試驗，看看我們平常的官兵、營舍裡面等等是否具備充足的警覺性，做了很多次，作為一個考評的標準，這當然都是很好的事情，提升警覺性就是強化戰備的一部分。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:32:59.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:33:05.584000+08:00","text":"國安局長從國安的角度，就是我們的政府機關等等這樣的一個角度，你有沒有一些相關的機制或是測驗？有。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:33:05.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:33:08.387000+08:00","text":"因為最近有好多共諜案，很危險，對不對？對。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:33:08.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:33:12.870000+08:00","text":"我們內部稽核、把控的一些機制，你的努力是什麼？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:33:12.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:33:13.311000+08:00","text":"要不要說明一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:33:14.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:33:30.907000+08:00","text":"關於這部分，因為國安局也是中共滲透的重要目標，所以我們本身不管是保防或反情報滲透，都有一個機制在，包括定期進行儀測，關於儀測，大概全中華民國政府裡面做得最積極、最全面的應該是本局。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:33:30.907000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:33:32.509000+08:00","text":"就是測謊的概念？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:33:32.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:33:33.169000+08:00","text":"對，做測謊的概念。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:33:33.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:33:42.317000+08:00","text":"其次，只要有任何出國，回來後也都還要再進行相關的歸詢跟儀測，避免在海外有被接觸的狀況。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:33:42.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:33:55.748000+08:00","text":"另外，我們的督察單位也都會定期針對我們同仁做必要的訪談跟清詢，提醒同仁注意一下、回憶一下最近有沒有被接觸，所以我們是有一個機制在運作。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:33:56.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:34:00.532000+08:00","text":"你剛剛提的都是有關於局裡面內部的稽核跟監測。是。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:34:01.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:34:03.756000+08:00","text":"其實每一局都要有這樣的一個觀念來因應可能的狀況。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:34:05.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:34:17.152000+08:00","text":"你作為國安的主管機關，其他局處針對內部反對滲透或者是防制滲透的各種措施，政府各機關也要做，因為它是無所不在，那你們的做法是什麼？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:34:17.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:34:53.145000+08:00","text":"我們大概分幾個部分，一個部分是把我們自己本身局內的反滲透機制予以完善；其次就是跟我們的國安情報機關（總共11個機關），我們也把我們的經驗跟這11個機關分享；另外就是推展到政府的部分，因為調查局是負責我們政府整體的安查跟特查，調查局也是我們國安情報機關裡面的協同情報機關，所以我們也會把這部分一些過去的案例、狀況，讓調查局在進行政府相關反情報的滲透當中，也能夠依照過去的經驗，建立做一個比較完善的機制。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:34:54.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:35:07.311000+08:00","text":"本席就是提醒一下，其實這應該是各個部會，警覺性要有所提高，國安局可能是作為示範，或者是你們內部的稽核去做合理的分享，然後分不同的層次、情報的敏感度。","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:35:07.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:35:08.011000+08:00","text":"有，我補充一下，我們也有針對一些比較高風險的……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:35:08.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:35:08.272000+08:00","text":"高風險的局處、部會。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:35:14.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:35:15.976000+08:00","text":"目標對象也是有一個高風險的名單。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:35:16.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:35:25.646000+08:00","text":"本席在這邊做一下提醒，希望針對這個部分，彼此之間可以借採一些情報防制的經驗，能夠讓滲透的狀況降到最低，謝謝，國安局長請回。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:35:25.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:35:26.646000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:35:26.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:35:27.608000+08:00","text":"主席，我可以再1分鐘嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:35:27.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:35:28.228000+08:00","text":"我請陸委會副主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T12:35:28.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:35:28.669000+08:00","text":"請陸委會副主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:35:28.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:35:29.029000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T12:35:43.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:35:44.139000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:35:44.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:35:44.899000+08:00","text":"副主委午安。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:35:46.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:36:00.184000+08:00","text":"很多委員今天都趁機講一下鄭習會的一些狀況，我直接切入重點，因為今天總統府說，十項措施以及等等相關的後續，如果有誠意就要跟政府進行協商。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:36:00.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:36:11.107000+08:00","text":"當然世界各國很多人都講樂於對話，對話也不要只跟在野黨對話，如果跟執政黨、跟政府可以有效對話，對於緩解兩岸關係有一定正面的幫助。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:36:11.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:36:14.287000+08:00","text":"副主委，你同意這樣的看法嗎？同意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:36:14.287000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:36:15.287000+08:00","text":"同意對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T12:36:14.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:36:19.930000+08:00","text":"所有兩岸之間的措施都應該跟臺灣民選政府對話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:36:20.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:36:20.570000+08:00","text":"你講得真好！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:36:21.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:36:28.414000+08:00","text":"現在總統府說有誠意就要來協商，你覺得這只是一個純粹的政治喊話，還是有打算付諸實際行動？","quality":1},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T12:36:28.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:36:44.123000+08:00","text":"我們其實已經跟對岸講了很多次，譬如說團客的觀光，這個部分我們希望能夠協商，小兩會能夠來磋商，但是他們到現在為止一直不肯回復，所以就卡在這裡。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:36:44.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:36:59.914000+08:00","text":"所以我今天問了，既然大家都講對話這件事好像滿重要的，我們先不預設大家彼此的政治立場或者是怎麼也好，我現在要問的是，現在陸委會接到指示要把它正式付諸行動，還是就只是今天講一講，新聞對付過去就算了？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T12:37:00.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:37:10.798000+08:00","text":"每一件事情他們單方面宣布之後，我們就要看他們有沒有要找我們討論，或者是他們希望接下來要怎麼進行。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T12:37:13.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:37:26.589000+08:00","text":"譬如說，他們昨天講說上海、福建的自由行，這個部分我們就等他們提出來，他們要有一個正式的東西，不是說發個新聞稿，發個新聞稿我們沒辦法處理事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:37:27.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:37:38.158000+08:00","text":"這個本席不反對，各個政黨不管是執政也好、在野也好，如果有辦法用對話的方式降低兩岸衝突的風險，我想對於國家安全都有一定的幫助，它不是唯一的方法，但它是有效的方法之一。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:37:39.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:37:43.991000+08:00","text":"我現在比較擔心的是，因為這一連串的過程，國內當然就吵翻天了，對不對？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:37:44.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:38:05.181000+08:00","text":"我現在想的是，政府屢次喊話，你們也希望跟中國大陸有一個穩定的對話管道，但好像一直都沒有辦法往前推進，你的立場跟你的方法之間總要可以對稱嘛，就是你執政黨有執政黨要堅持的地方，但是你在堅持這樣立場的時候，你用什麼樣的方法可以既堅持你的立場，又完成對話的目標，陸委會針對這樣有沒有準備？","quality":1},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T12:38:08.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:38:17.816000+08:00","text":"如果對方還是堅持九二共識、反獨的立場才能夠對話協商，那這個基本上可能性就不大。","quality":1},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T12:38:18.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:38:31.445000+08:00","text":"但是我們希望兩岸之間除了這個政治前提之外，大家畢竟都還有很多往來的需求，如果他們硬是要抓住這個前提，否則其他什麼都不談的話，那就沒辦法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:38:32.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:38:39.176000+08:00","text":"所以你剛剛講的其實還是立場，就是說政府有政府要守住的，這個我完全尊重，因為大家的政治立場本來就可以不一樣，民主社會是這樣。對。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:38:39.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:38:42.321000+08:00","text":"但是在立場跟方法出現衝突的時候，你的選擇是什麼？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:38:42.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:38:42.842000+08:00","text":"我們政府的選擇是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T12:38:44.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:39:03.309000+08:00","text":"政府的選擇是中華民國的生存，中華民國如果不能生存下去，那其他利益都不用談了，所以某些政治前提，如果危及中華民國的生存，那其他的你說能夠賣多少的鳳梨或者柑橘，那個就沒有……","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:39:04.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:39:08.012000+08:00","text":"那就是相對枝節的事情，我是講眼下，你現在面對這些狀況的時候，你的選擇是什麼？","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:39:08.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:39:11.275000+08:00","text":"現在就是有十項措施，也沒有談到別的東西，對吧？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T12:39:12.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:39:33.114000+08:00","text":"這十項措施，從我們的角度來看就是新瓶裝舊酒，其實都不是什麼大禮包，現在大家講得好像很了不起，其實在我們看來是一碗甜不辣想要換到一盅佛跳牆，大概就是這樣。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:39:33.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:39:36.015000+08:00","text":"所以在這個過程中會選擇堅持立場，方法就算了，是嗎？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T12:39:37.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:39:41.239000+08:00","text":"我們還是希望對方能夠……如果你想要做什麼，那你就可以直接跟我們政府來對話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:39:41.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:39:44.162000+08:00","text":"所以現在是溫情喊話，看有沒有辦法成就這個事情？是。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:39:44.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:39:49.546000+08:00","text":"沒關係，溫情喊話也是方法之一，本席不做任何預設立場。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:39:49.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:39:50.927000+08:00","text":"我們中華民國現在需要的是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:39:50.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:40:00.756000+08:00","text":"需要很多方法，大家都有不同立場，我們已經很清楚了，大家都知道，但是我們需要有解決事情的方法，陸委會的本職工作是促進交流，這是本席誠摯的提醒。是。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-13T12:40:01.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:40:02.657000+08:00","text":"時間已經到了，我們就不多談了，謝謝。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T12:40:03.157000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:40:06.871286+08:00","text":"接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}