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我們先請國安局局長請國安局蔡局長謝謝主席 薛恩好"},{"start":14.781,"end":41.421,"text":"我想先問一下因為我最近在新聞上也看到了好幾起就是說有不具名的國安人士然後呢是表示說那就是有一些比如說像是可能戰爭相關的啊或很多議題那這個中共他會用認知作戰的方式非常快速的把這個議題放到台灣的政論節目上面去討論請問一下這樣子的國安人士的說法那國安局這邊是"},{"start":43.202,"end":69.391,"text":"什麼態度啊對 中共大概在對台的認知作戰委員剛剛講到的那是一種方式所以你認為確實是有說透過台灣的政論節目去做認知作戰對 它可能會透過一些議題的操作跟傳散那也有可能會影響到我們包括平面媒體或政論節目以及各種網路社群的討論所以是中繼的影響還是直接跟政論節目的互動"},{"start":70.644,"end":89.395,"text":"之前有案例是有直接的互動我應該也記得那個案例嘛那個案例不是後來沒了嗎所以有喔沒有那個案例後來已經被送偵辦司法機關在偵辦是喔那他偵辦就也好久了也沒看到進度啊因為那個時候我知道我知道我知道我沒有叫你回答這個偵查中的事情只是說"},{"start":89.815,"end":101.74,"text":"我只是很疑惑就是說當初不是電視台然後講說沒有這件事情然後主持人也出來講說沒有這件事情但是你們掌握是你們仍然認為說這是一個我就是有情知的你們認為有這樣的情知是不是那這個電視台可能今天沒有在但蠻尷尬的"},{"start":107.543,"end":113.985,"text":"那就讓他繼續進到這個對 我們尊重司法偵辦的證據就讓他繼續去偵辦但是謝謝你告訴我說原來你們是認為有這個情資然後確實有有 當時我就公開這樣講了我們是有相關的情資我的意思是說當這個電視台他們都否認之後你們仍然認為你們情資掌握是無誤的嘛是這麼說嘛 對不對對 我們有情資好 那了解了可是問題是說我們在講認知作戰的時候是用什麼樣的一個觀察點這一點我覺得我要跟您做一個討論"},{"start":136.152,"end":152.404,"text":"比如說像最近有在討論印度移工的事情我想問一下印度移工的議題討論你覺得這是來自於中共的任職作戰嗎我的印象當中當初這個議題出來是曾經有一波的媒宣的處理"},{"start":152.964,"end":168.042,"text":"媒宣的處理,我問的是是不是來自於中共的認知作戰?中共的有一些,我應該知道以我們的技術能量我們可以去進行相關的帳號的溯源IP的查找那有一些IP我們只要判斷大概就知道是境外或是來自於中共"},{"start":168.422,"end":184.489,"text":"我可以看一下當時公視有做這樣的一個報導然後呢也讓NHK做了一個報導他提到的是呢台灣民主實驗室是用裡面的留言或是文章的詞彙認定是認知作戰的比如說呢他提到了假設說這個"},{"start":186.83,"end":205.448,"text":"人認為呢 假如台灣政府真是缺心眼這個 word use for stupid is also one use in the mainland not in Taiwan所以這個當時民主實驗室是這樣子去做一個解釋我看下一張投影片 上面有寫 你可以看英文的部分"},{"start":205.828,"end":223.247,"text":"也就是說比如說盜竊跟竊盜這個用法或是如果你講的缺心眼像類似這樣子的一個詞彙的運用被用為說不是台灣常見的使用用語的話就會被界定為認知作戰嗎這樣的一個界定會不會太過於狹隘了"},{"start":225.326,"end":237.358,"text":"就這部分來講當然透過現在的一些爬蟲程式可以針對一些內容來做一些篩慮那我剛才在跟委員說明我們可能除了內容以外我們還會判斷那個船上的管道是不是一個異常帳號"},{"start":238.547,"end":262.453,"text":"那這個也是一個輔助來判斷是不是中共傳善的一個根據您剛剛提到就是說有關於說所謂的印度移工的這個事情是當時你認為說有當時因為我們在講當時有這個中共的這個認知作戰在裡面可是呢我們可以看到像這樣子的一個報導他在2025年的10月的時候被公視揭露說他認為說當時有這個情況嘛"},{"start":265.094,"end":280.939,"text":"可是其實在討論的過程當中2024年勞動部確實就跟印度簽署了MOU那為什麼還是認定說這個叫做認知作戰就對一般民眾來說會覺得說確實這個你看確實當初本來說是假訊息這個勞動部在112年12月20號的時候說"},{"start":291.141,"end":310.075,"text":"引進印度移工當然有一個差別啦就是他有講到10萬名這個部分是假訊息他是一起講的這點我也要幫忙說明那但是呢這個事情沒過多久之後馬上的那就在100在這個很快你可以看到就馬上簽訂了這個MOU所以"},{"start":313.457,"end":333.821,"text":"這個事情只是因為要已經要簽署了然後還沒有公開那他就被認為說是政治作戰還是說呢你們用什麼樣一個標準跟方法去界定因為我們現在很擔心一件事情就是民眾有怨言的就你今天有一個議題就算他一開始呢他的社員他可能你認為說有幾個中共的什麼IP在幹嘛的"},{"start":336.562,"end":356.198,"text":"但我們還是要區分說這個事情是不是台灣民眾所關心的如果這個訊息是台灣民眾所關心所建議然後能認為說有問題的不能把民怨等同於認知作戰即便裡面或許有人在煽風點火我不排除也不否認裡面有人可能在煽風點火"},{"start":357.239,"end":375.551,"text":"但是它跟民怨之間就真的台灣有民怨對於是不是要開放印度移工這是一個事實那裡面小部分的人煽風點火這可能在任何的一個議題裡面都會出現中共它嘗試做這樣的方式可是民眾並不是因為中共做了認知作戰的煽風點火所以才對這個議題有意見那這個議題的整體討論它就不應該被列為所有人是因為認知作戰這樣 您怎麼看對"},{"start":385.878,"end":409.784,"text":"委員舉這個例子我可以理解也就是說後來確實有簽署MOU但我剛剛一直在跟委員說明的是我們可能除了所謂的爭議訊息的內容以外我們會針對它的傳散的手法以及它的異常帳號的IP的浮動的狀況來判斷這是不是外力的操作那另外就議題來講當時比較引起我們關注的內容是在於有點去誇大"},{"start":411.064,"end":439.681,"text":"印度移工進來可能會對於台灣社會之安包括對於女性侵犯那一部分的誇大所以我們重體分析起來認為是有一波中共比較有信心的操作因為現在台灣民眾也在討論這個議題重新在討論說印度的移工那要進到台灣來然後您剛剛所說的這一些內容也是在討論的這一些議題議程當中的那請問您有觀察到"},{"start":440.501,"end":463.576,"text":"大概最近對於印度移工是否要引進台灣這件事情有中共的認知作戰嗎最近我們看到是比較零星的那沒有像上次委員在提到一兩年前那一次比較有系統的所以你認為這一次確實是民怨而不是中共的認知作戰確實民怨我們看到的境外的IP是比較零星的"},{"start":463.996,"end":493.133,"text":"因為討論這件事情他當然是針對反對因為我想講的是反對的意見嘛所以就說好我修正我的詞彙就反對引進印度移工現在不管在網路或是輿論甚至政論節目的討論裡面那國安局這裡在這一波判定裡面基本上不太有中共認知作戰的影響目前還沒有大規模而是單純台灣人民的意志是這樣子的嗎"},{"start":493.513,"end":513.883,"text":"目前在原土產業當然會有不同的討論的角度就像委員講的我們是個多元的社會有不同的討論那就國安局的角度來講我們比較注意的是國安的狀況有沒有境外勢力的操作這一塊那我們在判斷的一些依準還有參據我剛有跟委員說明了有各種不同的指標那我再問你說這一波就是說大概這一周來說的話因為討論"},{"start":517.525,"end":539.858,"text":"討論非常多它幾乎是包含在社群上面的最高關鍵討論度討論度最高的最近兩個議題一個是寵物用藥討論度更高的是印度移工因為上一次被界定為說是認知作戰所以這一次我很希望跟您確認一下這一波以來國安局所掌握的是中共來的認知作戰還是台灣內部的自行討論"},{"start":542.219,"end":558.781,"text":"到目前跟委員討論這個時間點為止我們還沒有看到數量非常龐大的異常帳號的操作但我們後續會再來注意那接下來我要問的事情是有一點時間了在今年二月底的時候因為這個台日在台北大巨蛋有這個台日棒球交流賽嘛"},{"start":559.982,"end":582.698,"text":"那賴清德總統他有親自觀賽那時候維安規格是非常高的結果我們的負責維安勤務的38歲的江姓現役軍人呢然後呢因為先去做安全檢查的關係呢就呢在地下室工作人員休息室裡面偷走了六顆紀念性的棒球裡面還有拉拉多多人群群的這個簽名球那事後警方這個透過監視器就發現說是這個他順手牽羊"},{"start":586.641,"end":603.47,"text":"那後來呢他變成說是以為是沒有人要的垃圾雖然已經歸還了可是被依盜竊罪那這個韓送台北地檢署偵辦那這件事情他不只是涉及到個人的操守也破錄出總統維安人員的紀律漏洞那我請問一下就是維安人員他當初的他當天去的工作是幫總統"},{"start":610.453,"end":625.633,"text":"搜尋說有沒有哪裡有維安的問題哪裡有漏洞所以他自己本身就是最大的維安漏洞因為他在裡面偷東西所以我想問一下國防部司法的部分那已經函送了那是司法的部分我在這裡我不討論"},{"start":626.434,"end":643.813,"text":"那我要討論的是國安局我們在內部裡面針對這件事情的紀律問題我們有沒有做出檢討檢討的內容檢討的方向以及後續的懲處未來的改善方法是什麼請您說明這部分跟委員說明一下第一個是他確實在第一時間就已經移送法辦了"},{"start":644.734,"end":663.836,"text":"那另外因為這一位情員他是由國防部縣指部支援到本局特勤中心來負責做總統行程之前的現場勘察的工作所以我們後來第一時間就解除他支援的職務那回到縣指部之後縣指部我沒有記錯的話他還立刻召開了人評會計量大過列優先汰除名單已經公佈在案"},{"start":664.136,"end":686.163,"text":"那我們國安局裡面也有擴大來進行這個案子的調查是不是只有一個情員資源的情員來涉案那跟委員報告後來還有兩位的情員也可能知情所以我們後來是啟動我們的知情的意思是說我沒有進行法律上的一個法律單位的知情的意思是說知道那個人去拿走幾顆球但沒說這樣子"},{"start":687.544,"end":708.904,"text":"對 因為我們在法律研究認為這也是涉及到共犯行為的一種所以我們就啟動我們的相關局那兩位他的單位是在一樣是記憶兩大過列為遊行探索名單而是我們特勤中心的相關的人員所屬是所屬國安局的特勤中心人員對 我們特勤中心的人員所以我們一樣做內部的調查 高大調查處犯他是從縣執部那邊來支援的對"},{"start":710.285,"end":724.688,"text":"然後呢這個知情不報者是國安局特刑中心的人員所以我們就做完整的處理而且移送法辦因為案情大概的狀況是這樣因為當事人可能還在走行政訴願以及司法的程序那我就他們說"},{"start":726.189,"end":749.515,"text":"細節不需要 我只是希望說 未來我們在整體的勤務安排還有整體的這一些特許人的教育跟訓練上面還是要強化這個紀律因為總統去的地方他當然是一些一般人去不到的地方他能夠觸碰到的東西跟接觸到的事物也是一般人接觸不到的事物那所謂的好東西那當然他是很容易都可以接觸到"},{"start":750.575,"end":776.89,"text":"我們今天要請這些特勤人員去是幫總統去檢查不是說有啥好東西就順手牽羊這是一個非常糟糕的怪習慣所以希望國安局在之後這方面的相關的紀律我們一定要再嚴加看管好不好委員提醒因為在執行公務期間還有去佔有民間的財務那這當然是法律上不容許那我們才會不斷的擴大調查看有沒有案官人等一併處理好的 謝謝謝委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}