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我們先請國安局局長請國安局蔡局長謝謝主席 薛恩好"},{"start":14.781,"end":41.421,"text":"我想先問一下因為我最近在新聞上也看到了好幾起就是說有不具名的國安人士然後呢是表示說那就是有一些比如說像是可能戰爭相關的啊或很多議題那這個中共他會用認知作戰的方式非常快速的把這個議題放到台灣的政論節目上面去討論請問一下這樣子的國安人士的說法那國安局這邊是"},{"start":43.202,"end":69.391,"text":"什麼態度啊對 中共大概在對台的認知作戰委員剛剛講到的那是一種方式所以你認為確實是有說透過台灣的政論節目去做認知作戰對 它可能會透過一些議題的操作跟傳散那也有可能會影響到我們包括平面媒體或政論節目以及各種網路社群的討論所以是中繼的影響還是直接跟政論節目的互動"},{"start":70.644,"end":89.395,"text":"之前有案例是有直接的互動我應該也記得那個案例嘛那個案例不是後來沒了嗎所以有喔沒有那個案例後來已經被送偵辦司法機關在偵辦是喔那他偵辦就也好久了也沒看到進度啊因為那個時候我知道我知道我知道我沒有叫你回答這個偵查中的事情只是說"},{"start":89.815,"end":101.74,"text":"我只是很疑惑就是說當初不是電視台然後講說沒有這件事情然後主持人也出來講說沒有這件事情但是你們掌握是你們仍然認為說這是一個我就是有情知的你們認為有這樣的情知是不是那這個電視台可能今天沒有在但蠻尷尬的"},{"start":107.543,"end":113.985,"text":"那就讓他繼續進到這個對 我們尊重司法偵辦的證據就讓他繼續去偵辦但是謝謝你告訴我說原來你們是認為有這個情資然後確實有有 當時我就公開這樣講了我們是有相關的情資我的意思是說當這個電視台他們都否認之後你們仍然認為你們情資掌握是無誤的嘛是這麼說嘛 對不對對 我們有情資好 那了解了可是問題是說我們在講認知作戰的時候是用什麼樣的一個觀察點這一點我覺得我要跟您做一個討論"},{"start":136.152,"end":152.404,"text":"比如說像最近有在討論印度移工的事情我想問一下印度移工的議題討論你覺得這是來自於中共的任職作戰嗎我的印象當中當初這個議題出來是曾經有一波的媒宣的處理"},{"start":152.964,"end":168.042,"text":"媒宣的處理,我問的是是不是來自於中共的認知作戰?中共的有一些,我應該知道以我們的技術能量我們可以去進行相關的帳號的溯源IP的查找那有一些IP我們只要判斷大概就知道是境外或是來自於中共"},{"start":168.422,"end":184.489,"text":"我可以看一下當時公視有做這樣的一個報導然後呢也讓NHK做了一個報導他提到的是呢台灣民主實驗室是用裡面的留言或是文章的詞彙認定是認知作戰的比如說呢他提到了假設說這個"},{"start":186.83,"end":205.448,"text":"人認為呢 假如台灣政府真是缺心眼這個 word use for stupid is also one use in the mainland not in Taiwan所以這個當時民主實驗室是這樣子去做一個解釋我看下一張投影片 上面有寫 你可以看英文的部分"},{"start":205.828,"end":223.247,"text":"也就是說比如說盜竊跟竊盜這個用法或是如果你講的缺心眼像類似這樣子的一個詞彙的運用被用為說不是台灣常見的使用用語的話就會被界定為認知作戰嗎這樣的一個界定會不會太過於狹隘了"},{"start":225.326,"end":237.358,"text":"就這部分來講當然透過現在的一些爬蟲程式可以針對一些內容來做一些篩慮那我剛才在跟委員說明我們可能除了內容以外我們還會判斷那個船上的管道是不是一個異常帳號"},{"start":238.547,"end":262.453,"text":"那這個也是一個輔助來判斷是不是中共傳善的一個根據您剛剛提到就是說有關於說所謂的印度移工的這個事情是當時你認為說有當時因為我們在講當時有這個中共的這個認知作戰在裡面可是呢我們可以看到像這樣子的一個報導他在2025年的10月的時候被公視揭露說他認為說當時有這個情況嘛"},{"start":265.094,"end":280.939,"text":"可是其實在討論的過程當中2024年勞動部確實就跟印度簽署了MOU那為什麼還是認定說這個叫做認知作戰就對一般民眾來說會覺得說確實這個你看確實當初本來說是假訊息這個勞動部在112年12月20號的時候說"},{"start":291.141,"end":310.075,"text":"引進印度移工當然有一個差別啦就是他有講到10萬名這個部分是假訊息他是一起講的這點我也要幫忙說明那但是呢這個事情沒過多久之後馬上的那就在100在這個很快你可以看到就馬上簽訂了這個MOU所以"},{"start":313.457,"end":333.821,"text":"這個事情只是因為要已經要簽署了然後還沒有公開那他就被認為說是政治作戰還是說呢你們用什麼樣一個標準跟方法去界定因為我們現在很擔心一件事情就是民眾有怨言的就你今天有一個議題就算他一開始呢他的社員他可能你認為說有幾個中共的什麼IP在幹嘛的"},{"start":336.562,"end":356.198,"text":"但我們還是要區分說這個事情是不是台灣民眾所關心的如果這個訊息是台灣民眾所關心所建議然後能認為說有問題的不能把民怨等同於認知作戰即便裡面或許有人在煽風點火我不排除也不否認裡面有人可能在煽風點火"},{"start":357.239,"end":375.551,"text":"但是它跟民怨之間就真的台灣有民怨對於是不是要開放印度移工這是一個事實那裡面小部分的人煽風點火這可能在任何的一個議題裡面都會出現中共它嘗試做這樣的方式可是民眾並不是因為中共做了認知作戰的煽風點火所以才對這個議題有意見那這個議題的整體討論它就不應該被列為所有人是因為認知作戰這樣 您怎麼看對"},{"start":385.878,"end":409.784,"text":"委員舉這個例子我可以理解也就是說後來確實有簽署MOU但我剛剛一直在跟委員說明的是我們可能除了所謂的爭議訊息的內容以外我們會針對它的傳散的手法以及它的異常帳號的IP的浮動的狀況來判斷這是不是外力的操作那另外就議題來講當時比較引起我們關注的內容是在於有點去誇大"},{"start":411.064,"end":439.681,"text":"印度移工進來可能會對於台灣社會之安包括對於女性侵犯那一部分的誇大所以我們重體分析起來認為是有一波中共比較有信心的操作因為現在台灣民眾也在討論這個議題重新在討論說印度的移工那要進到台灣來然後您剛剛所說的這一些內容也是在討論的這一些議題議程當中的那請問您有觀察到"},{"start":440.501,"end":463.576,"text":"大概最近對於印度移工是否要引進台灣這件事情有中共的認知作戰嗎最近我們看到是比較零星的那沒有像上次委員在提到一兩年前那一次比較有系統的所以你認為這一次確實是民怨而不是中共的認知作戰確實民怨我們看到的境外的IP是比較零星的"},{"start":463.996,"end":493.133,"text":"因為討論這件事情他當然是針對反對因為我想講的是反對的意見嘛所以就說好我修正我的詞彙就反對引進印度移工現在不管在網路或是輿論甚至政論節目的討論裡面那國安局這裡在這一波判定裡面基本上不太有中共認知作戰的影響目前還沒有大規模而是單純台灣人民的意志是這樣子的嗎"},{"start":493.513,"end":513.883,"text":"目前在原土產業當然會有不同的討論的角度就像委員講的我們是個多元的社會有不同的討論那就國安局的角度來講我們比較注意的是國安的狀況有沒有境外勢力的操作這一塊那我們在判斷的一些依準還有參據我剛有跟委員說明了有各種不同的指標那我再問你說這一波就是說大概這一周來說的話因為討論"},{"start":517.525,"end":539.858,"text":"討論非常多它幾乎是包含在社群上面的最高關鍵討論度討論度最高的最近兩個議題一個是寵物用藥討論度更高的是印度移工因為上一次被界定為說是認知作戰所以這一次我很希望跟您確認一下這一波以來國安局所掌握的是中共來的認知作戰還是台灣內部的自行討論"},{"start":542.219,"end":558.781,"text":"到目前跟委員討論這個時間點為止我們還沒有看到數量非常龐大的異常帳號的操作但我們後續會再來注意那接下來我要問的事情是有一點時間了在今年二月底的時候因為這個台日在台北大巨蛋有這個台日棒球交流賽嘛"},{"start":559.982,"end":582.698,"text":"那賴清德總統他有親自觀賽那時候維安規格是非常高的結果我們的負責維安勤務的38歲的江姓現役軍人呢然後呢因為先去做安全檢查的關係呢就呢在地下室工作人員休息室裡面偷走了六顆紀念性的棒球裡面還有拉拉多多人群群的這個簽名球那事後警方這個透過監視器就發現說是這個他順手牽羊"},{"start":586.641,"end":603.47,"text":"那後來呢他變成說是以為是沒有人要的垃圾雖然已經歸還了可是被依盜竊罪那這個韓送台北地檢署偵辦那這件事情他不只是涉及到個人的操守也破錄出總統維安人員的紀律漏洞那我請問一下就是維安人員他當初的他當天去的工作是幫總統"},{"start":610.453,"end":625.633,"text":"搜尋說有沒有哪裡有維安的問題哪裡有漏洞所以他自己本身就是最大的維安漏洞因為他在裡面偷東西所以我想問一下國防部司法的部分那已經函送了那是司法的部分我在這裡我不討論"},{"start":626.434,"end":643.813,"text":"那我要討論的是國安局我們在內部裡面針對這件事情的紀律問題我們有沒有做出檢討檢討的內容檢討的方向以及後續的懲處未來的改善方法是什麼請您說明這部分跟委員說明一下第一個是他確實在第一時間就已經移送法辦了"},{"start":644.734,"end":663.836,"text":"那另外因為這一位情員他是由國防部縣指部支援到本局特勤中心來負責做總統行程之前的現場勘察的工作所以我們後來第一時間就解除他支援的職務那回到縣指部之後縣指部我沒有記錯的話他還立刻召開了人評會計量大過列優先汰除名單已經公佈在案"},{"start":664.136,"end":686.163,"text":"那我們國安局裡面也有擴大來進行這個案子的調查是不是只有一個情員資源的情員來涉案那跟委員報告後來還有兩位的情員也可能知情所以我們後來是啟動我們的知情的意思是說我沒有進行法律上的一個法律單位的知情的意思是說知道那個人去拿走幾顆球但沒說這樣子"},{"start":687.544,"end":708.904,"text":"對 因為我們在法律研究認為這也是涉及到共犯行為的一種所以我們就啟動我們的相關局那兩位他的單位是在一樣是記憶兩大過列為遊行探索名單而是我們特勤中心的相關的人員所屬是所屬國安局的特勤中心人員對 我們特勤中心的人員所以我們一樣做內部的調查 高大調查處犯他是從縣執部那邊來支援的對"},{"start":710.285,"end":724.688,"text":"然後呢這個知情不報者是國安局特刑中心的人員所以我們就做完整的處理而且移送法辦因為案情大概的狀況是這樣因為當事人可能還在走行政訴願以及司法的程序那我就他們說"},{"start":726.189,"end":749.515,"text":"細節不需要 我只是希望說 未來我們在整體的勤務安排還有整體的這一些特許人的教育跟訓練上面還是要強化這個紀律因為總統去的地方他當然是一些一般人去不到的地方他能夠觸碰到的東西跟接觸到的事物也是一般人接觸不到的事物那所謂的好東西那當然他是很容易都可以接觸到"},{"start":750.575,"end":776.89,"text":"我們今天要請這些特勤人員去是幫總統去檢查不是說有啥好東西就順手牽羊這是一個非常糟糕的怪習慣所以希望國安局在之後這方面的相關的紀律我們一定要再嚴加看管好不好委員提醒因為在執行公務期間還有去佔有民間的財務那這當然是法律上不容許那我們才會不斷的擴大調查看有沒有案官人等一併處理好的 謝謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:40:20.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:40:22.915000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們先請國安局長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T12:40:22.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:40:23.595000+08:00","text":"請國安局蔡局長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:40:23.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:40:23.615000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，徐委員好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:40:24.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:40:24.356000+08:00","text":"局長好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:40:32.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:40:55.938000+08:00","text":"我想先問一下，因為我最近在新聞上看到有好幾起不具名國安人士表示一些戰爭相關的議題，中共會用認知作戰的方式非常快速地把這個議題放到臺灣的政論節目上面去討論。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:40:55.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:01.642000+08:00","text":"請問一下，這樣子的國安人士的說法，國安局這邊是什麼態度？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:02.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:07.364000+08:00","text":"中共對臺的認知作戰，委員剛剛講到的是一種方式。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:07.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:14.927000+08:00","text":"所以你認為確實是有透過臺灣的政論節目去做認知作戰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:14.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:22.849000+08:00","text":"對，他們可能會透過一些議題的操作跟傳散，也有可能會影響到我們包括平面媒體或政論節目，以及各種網路社群的討論，確實是管道之一。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:22.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:27.391000+08:00","text":"所以是中繼的影響，還是直接跟政論節目的互動？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:28.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:32.586000+08:00","text":"之前有案例是有直接的互動，委員應該也記得那個案例嘛！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:33.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:34.347000+08:00","text":"那個案例不是後來沒了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:34.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:34.748000+08:00","text":"所以有喔？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:34.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:37.489000+08:00","text":"沒有，那個案例後來已經移送偵辦。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:37.489000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:38.489000+08:00","text":"那個不是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:37.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:38.610000+08:00","text":"司法機關在偵辦。是喔？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:39.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:42.572000+08:00","text":"偵辦也好久了，也沒看到進度啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:42.572000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:44.613000+08:00","text":"因為國安局不適合去評論。","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:44.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:47.015000+08:00","text":"我知道、我知道，我沒有叫你回答這個偵查中的事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:47.015000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:48.015000+08:00","text":"對，因為它還在處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:47.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:57.299000+08:00","text":"只是我很疑惑，當初不是電視臺說沒有這件事情，主持人也出來說沒有這件事情，但是你們掌握的是你們仍然認為這是一個……","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:57.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:58.480000+08:00","text":"有，我們是有情資的。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:58.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:41:59.080000+08:00","text":"喔，你們認為有這樣的情資，是不是？是。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:41:59.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:42:05.703000+08:00","text":"好，這個電視臺可能今天沒有在，但滿尷尬的，那就讓它繼續進到……","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:42:05.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:42:05.863000+08:00","text":"對，我們尊重司法偵辦的程序。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:42:05.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:42:07.424000+08:00","text":"好，就讓它繼續去偵辦，但是謝謝你告訴我，原來你們是認為有這個情資，然後確實是……","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:42:07.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:42:08.204000+08:00","text":"有，當時我就公開這樣講了，我們是有相關的情資。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:42:08.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:42:09.644000+08:00","text":"我的意思是當這個電視臺他們都否認之後，你們仍然認為你們情資掌握是無誤的嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:42:09.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:42:10.044000+08:00","text":"是這麼說嘛，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:42:10.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:42:10.164000+08:00","text":"對，我們有情資，我們負責任。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:42:10.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:42:10.425000+08:00","text":"好，了解了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:42:10.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:42:11.345000+08:00","text":"可是問題是說我們在講認知作戰的時候是用什麼樣的一個觀察點？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:42:11.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:42:11.985000+08:00","text":"這點我覺得我要跟您做一個討論。好。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:42:34.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:42:44.920000+08:00","text":"比如說最近有在討論印度移工的事情，我想問一下有關印度移工議題的討論，你覺得這是來自於中共的認知作戰嗎？","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:42:44.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:42:50.384000+08:00","text":"我的印象當中，當初這個議題出來是曾經有一波媒宣的處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:42:50.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:42:51.845000+08:00","text":"媒宣的處理？對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:42:52.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:42:55.449000+08:00","text":"我問的是，是不是來自於中共的認知作戰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:42:55.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:43:02.297000+08:00","text":"有，中共有一些……委員應該也知道，以我們的技術能量，我們可以去進行相關帳號的溯源、IP的查找……好……","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:43:02.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:43:06.022000+08:00","text":"有一些IP，我們只要判斷，大概就知道是境外或是來自於中共。好。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:43:08.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:43:43.428000+08:00","text":"當時公視有做這樣一個報導，然後也讓NHK做了一個報導，它提到的是台灣民主實驗室用裡面的留言或是文章的詞彙認定是認知作戰的，比如說它提到「臺灣政府真是缺心眼」──The word used for \"stupid\" is also one used in the mainland, not in Taiwan.當時民主實驗室是這樣子去解釋的，這張投影片上面有寫，你可以看英文的部分。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:43:44.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:43:59.345000+08:00","text":"又比如「盜竊」跟「竊盜」的用法，或是講「缺心眼」，類似這樣子詞彙的運用，被認為不是臺灣常見的使用用語，就會被界定為認知作戰嗎？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:43:59.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:44:01.227000+08:00","text":"這樣的界定會不會太過於狹隘了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:44:03.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:44:19.888000+08:00","text":"就這部分來講，當然透過現在一些爬蟲程式，可以針對一些內容進行篩濾，我剛才跟委員說明，除了內容以外，我們還會判斷那個傳散的管道是不是一個異常帳號，這也是一個輔助來判斷是不是中共傳散的一個依據。好。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:44:19.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:44:27.010000+08:00","text":"您剛剛提到有關於印度移工的事情，當時你認為有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:44:27.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:44:27.670000+08:00","text":"當時有。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:44:27.670000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:44:28.670000+08:00","text":"好，是當時。對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:44:27.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:44:57.178000+08:00","text":"因為我們講當時有中共的認知作戰在裡面，但像這樣子的一個報導，在2025年10月的時候，被公視揭露認為當時有這個情況，可是其實在討論的過程當中，2024年勞動部確實就跟印度簽署了MOU，為什麼還是認定這個叫做認知作戰？","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:44:57.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:45:27.935000+08:00","text":"對一般民眾來說，當初本來說是假訊息，勞動部在112年12月20號的時候說引進印度移工……當然有一個差別，就是講到10萬名這個部分是假訊息，這是一起講的，這點我也要幫忙說明，但是這個事情沒過多久之後，你可以看到，很快就馬上簽訂了MOU。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:45:28.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:45:42.519000+08:00","text":"所以這個事情只是因為已經要簽署了，但是還沒有公開，它就被認為是認知作戰，還是你們用什麼樣一個標準跟方法去界定？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:45:43.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:46:33.431000+08:00","text":"我們現在很擔心一件事情就是民眾有怨言的，假設今天有一個議題，就算一開始它的溯源可能被認為有幾個中共的IP在幹嘛的，但我們還是要區分這個事情是不是臺灣民眾所關心的，如果這個訊息是臺灣民眾所關心、所建議，然後你們認為有問題的，不能把民怨等同於認知作戰，即便裡面或許有人在煽風點火，我不排除也不否認裡面有人可能在煽風點火，但是它跟民怨之間……真的就是臺灣對於是不是要開放印度移工有民怨，這是一個事實，而裡面有小部分人煽風點火，這可能在任何一個議題裡面都會出現中共嘗試做這樣的方式，可是民眾並不是因為中共做了認知作戰煽風點火，所以才對這個議題有意見，那這個議題的整體討論就不應該被列為所謂的「是因為認知作戰」。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:46:33.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:46:33.531000+08:00","text":"局長，您怎麼看？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:46:43.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:47:01.402000+08:00","text":"委員舉這個例子，我可以理解，也就是後來確實有簽署MOU，但我剛剛一直在跟委員說明的是，我們可能除了所謂的爭議訊息的內容以外，我們會針對它的傳散手法，以及它的異常帳號IP的浮動狀況來判斷這是不是外力的操作。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:47:01.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:47:15.748000+08:00","text":"另外就議題來講，當時比較引起我們關注的內容，是在於有點誇大了印度移工進來可能會影響臺灣社會的治安，包括對於女性侵犯那部分誇大。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:47:15.748000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:47:16.748000+08:00","text":"好，了解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:47:16.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:47:20.130000+08:00","text":"但是我們綜體分析起來認為是有一波中共比較有系統的操作。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:47:20.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:47:35.459000+08:00","text":"好，那我問你，因為現在臺灣民眾也在討論這個議題，重新討論印度的移工要進到臺灣來，然後您剛剛所說的這一些內容也是在討論這些議題的議程當中。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:47:36.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:47:45.966000+08:00","text":"請問你有觀察到，最近對於印度移工是否要引進臺灣這件事情，有中共的認知作戰嗎？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:47:45.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:47:52.710000+08:00","text":"最近我們看到是比較零星的，沒有像上次委員提到一、兩年前那次比較有系統的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:47:53.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:47:58.554000+08:00","text":"所以你認為這一次確實是民怨，而不是中共的認知作戰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:47:58.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:48:01.556000+08:00","text":"我們不是說確實是民怨，我們看到的境外IP是比較零星的，而不是大規模的。","quality":0.594},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:48:03.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:48:26.270000+08:00","text":"討論這件事情當然是針對反對，因為我想講的是反對的意見，好，我修正我的詞彙，就是反對引進印度移工，現在不管在網路或是輿論，甚至政論節目的討論裡面，國安局在這一波判定裡面，基本上認為不太有中共認知作戰的影子……","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:48:26.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:48:27.211000+08:00","text":"目前還沒有大規模，我們再來注意。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:48:27.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:48:31.133000+08:00","text":"而是單純臺灣人民的意志，是這樣子的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:48:31.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:48:43.559000+08:00","text":"目前當然會有不同的討論角度，就像委員講的，我們是個多元的社會，有不同的討論，就國安局的角度來講，我們比較注意的是國安的狀況，有沒有境外勢力操作這一塊。對。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:48:43.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:48:50.823000+08:00","text":"我們在判斷的一些依準還有參據，我剛剛有跟委員說明了，有各種不同的指標在討論。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:48:50.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:48:51.063000+08:00","text":"是，那我現在問你這一波……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:48:51.063000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:48:52.063000+08:00","text":"就這一波來講，還沒有……","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:48:51.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:49:06.892000+08:00","text":"就是大概這一週來說，因為討論非常多，它幾乎包含在Threads上面、社群上面是最高關鍵討論度，最近討論度最高的兩個議題，一個是寵物用藥，討論度更高的是印度移工。對。","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:49:08.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:49:11.074000+08:00","text":"因為上一次被界定為是認知作戰，所以這一次我想……","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:49:11.074000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:49:12.074000+08:00","text":"有大規模。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:49:11.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:49:17.858000+08:00","text":"我很希望跟您確認一下，這一波以來，國安局所掌握的是中共來的認知作戰，還是臺灣內部的自行討論？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:49:20.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:49:27.268000+08:00","text":"到目前跟委員討論的這個時間點為止，我們還沒有看到數量非常龐大的異常帳號的操作，但我們後續會再注意。好。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:49:28.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:50:15.647000+08:00","text":"接下來我要問的事情就有一點時間了，在今年2月底的時候臺北大巨蛋有臺日棒球交流賽，賴清德總統有親自觀賽，那時候維安規格是非常高的，結果負責維安勤務的38歲江姓現役軍人，因為先去做安全檢查的關係，在地下室工作人員休息室裡面偷走6顆紀念性的棒球，裡面還有啦啦隊隊員峮峮的簽名球，事後警方透過監視器就發現是他順手牽羊，後來他辯稱以為那是沒有人要的垃圾，雖然已經歸還了，可是還是被依盜竊罪移送臺北地檢署偵辦。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:50:15.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:50:37.285000+08:00","text":"這件事情不只涉及到個人操守，也暴露出總統維安人員的紀律漏洞，維安人員當天去的工作是幫總統搜尋哪裡有維安的問題、哪裡有漏洞，結果他自己本身就是最大的維安漏洞，因為他在裡面偷東西。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:50:37.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:50:52.443000+08:00","text":"所以我想問國安局，司法的部分已經移送了，那是司法的部分，我在這裡不討論，我要討論的是，國安局內部針對這件事情的紀律問題有沒有做出檢討？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:50:52.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:50:57.268000+08:00","text":"檢討的內容、檢討的方向、後續的懲處以及未來的改善方法是什麼？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:50:57.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:50:57.288000+08:00","text":"請您說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥：這部分跟委員說明","start":"2026-04-13T12:50:59.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:51:21.816000+08:00","text":"第一個，他確實在第一時間就已經移送法辦；另外，因為這位勤員是由國防部憲指部支援到本局特勤中心來負責做總統行程之前的現場勘查工作，所以我們後來第一時間就解除他支援的職務，回到憲指部之後，我沒有記錯的話，憲指部還立刻召開了人評會，記了兩大過並列優先汰除名單，已經公布在案。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥：這部分跟委員說明","start":"2026-04-13T12:51:22.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:51:34.440000+08:00","text":"國安局裡面也有擴大進行這個案子的調查，看是不是只有一個支援的勤員涉案，跟委員報告，後來還有兩位勤員也可能知情，所以我們後來是啟動我們的……","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:51:35.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:51:36+08:00","text":"知情的意思是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:51:36.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:51:39.481000+08:00","text":"我們有進行法務單位的移送……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:51:40.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:51:44.143000+08:00","text":"我問一下，知情的意思是，知道那個人去拿走幾顆球但沒說，是這樣子嗎？","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:51:45.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:51:51.049000+08:00","text":"對，因為在法律的研究上，認為這也是涉及到共犯行為的一種，所以我們就啟動相關的調查……","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:51:51.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:51:53.751000+08:00","text":"OK，那兩位的單位是在……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:51:53.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:51:57.175000+08:00","text":"一樣是記兩大過、列為優先汰除名單。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:51:57.175000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:51:58.175000+08:00","text":"他們的單位是？","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:51:57.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:52:00.438000+08:00","text":"是特勤中心的相關人員。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:52:00.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:52:02.159000+08:00","text":"是國安局所屬特勤中心的人員？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:52:02.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:52:05.162000+08:00","text":"對，是我們特勤中心的人員，所以我們一樣做內部的調查，並擴大調查。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:52:05.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:52:12.031000+08:00","text":"主犯是從憲指部那邊來支援的，然後知情不報者是國安局特勤中心的人員。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:52:12.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:52:22.067000+08:00","text":"是，所以我們就做完整的處理，而且移送法辦，案情狀況大概是這樣，因為當事人可能還在走行政訴願以及司法程序，那細節……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:52:24.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:52:56.840000+08:00","text":"沒問題，細節不需要，我只是希望未來在整體的勤務安排以及特勤人員的教育跟訓練上面，還是要強化這些紀律，因為總統去的地方當然是一般人去不到的地方，他能夠觸碰到的東西跟接觸到的事物也是一般人接觸不到的事物，所謂的好東西，當然他是很容易都可以接觸到，我們今天是請這些特勤人員去幫總統檢查，不是說有什麼好東西就順手牽羊，這是一個非常糟糕的壞習慣！當然。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:52:56.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:53:03.604000+08:00","text":"所以希望國安局之後在這方面相關的紀律，你們一定要再嚴加看管，好不好？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:53:04.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:53:14.750000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員提醒，因為在執行公務期間去占有民間的財物，這當然是法律上不容許的，所以我們才會不斷地擴大調查，看有沒有案關人等一併處理。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-04-13T12:53:14.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:53:14.870000+08:00","text":"好的，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T12:53:14.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T12:53:14.890000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。謝謝。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T12:53:15.390000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T12:53:19.104286+08:00","text":"接下來請黃建賓委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}