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13:16:30","會議時間":"2026-04-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、國防部副部長徐斯儉、內政部、海洋委員會報告「針對近期中國籍小型船隻非法侵入我國領海之偵搜漏洞檢討、科技監偵設備建置進度與精進作為」，併請大陸委員會、交通部列席，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.68721875,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.028468750000002,"end":16.450343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.766593750000002,"end":43.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.21784375,"end":19.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.35284375,"end":19.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.77471875,"end":19.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.500968750000006,"end":51.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.984718750000006,"end":56.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.12346875,"end":81.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.04909375,"end":73.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.35159375,"end":87.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.57846875,"end":88.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.62909375000001,"end":88.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.21971875,"end":88.23659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.23659375000001,"end":88.27034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.27034375000001,"end":91.40909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.32096875,"end":88.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.40909375000001,"end":91.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.54409375,"end":97.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.07471875,"end":102.17534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.82096875,"end":129.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.58034375,"end":148.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.98659375,"end":149.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.67409375,"end":152.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.59784375,"end":156.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.10346875000002,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.62471875,"end":169.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.03409375,"end":196.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.10159375,"end":210.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.76596875,"end":213.51659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.29284375,"end":226.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.91221875000002,"end":220.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.37971875000002,"end":254.86034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.21034375,"end":256.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.68284375,"end":256.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.76721875000004,"end":275.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.37471875,"end":257.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.97096875,"end":307.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.66221875,"end":331.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.00909375000003,"end":329.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.44346875,"end":330.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.32096875,"end":335.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.14721875000004,"end":368.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.08721875000003,"end":377.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.25471875000005,"end":391.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.47596875000005,"end":397.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.04471875,"end":399.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.26784375000005,"end":403.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.03534375000004,"end":408.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.33846875,"end":409.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.77284375000005,"end":416.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.99534375,"end":420.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.66596875000005,"end":419.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.37471875,"end":464.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.07221875000005,"end":466.59096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.75971875000005,"end":490.21596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.92471875,"end":493.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.75096875,"end":499.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.46346875,"end":505.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.28096875000006,"end":515.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.3259687500001,"end":515.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.96721875,"end":520.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.6709687499999,"end":532.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.55534375,"end":558.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.69471875,"end":560.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.1922187499999,"end":580.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.8347187500001,"end":581.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.18909375,"end":597.557843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謝謝"},{"start":16.041,"end":30.541,"text":"副主委好副部長好副主委好來引向加持無人艇應對海上滋擾無人艇建案訓練戰備足夠並行先請教副主委我國政府下一頁我國政府網路三個月"},{"start":32.803,"end":51.793,"text":"輕擾1.7億次那這裡面我們看到了什麼包括不只這個啊官方有什麼中共來的是戰機跟海警船灰色地帶有漁船橡皮艇網路深擾人員受傷等等等請問一下我們副主委除了攻擊擾台海警船等官方手段漁船橡皮艇網路威脅這個您覺得是不是也很嚴重"},{"start":53.895,"end":77.185,"text":"各位報案這是值得關注的問題好 所以我們今天都在關心來 下一頁我們小型船艇的入侵難偵測用SAR還是用影像觀測小型船艇雷達難偵測 岸基雷達很難看到那麼小的目標體積又小漁船的話它可能關閉或夜召AIS對不對所以難以查獲 又可以製造假象 又可以逆行蹤所以說我們海巡很吃重"},{"start":77.825,"end":101.741,"text":"要靠你們海巡 還有燈檢 可是燈檢的皮革分泌船隻老化請問一下有沒有更高效的應對方式 譬如用SAR核心攻擊雷達還是用影像觀測 副主任你怎麼看剛委員提到的都是方法之一另外我們現在用高科技的這個無人機部分也是一個方法之一另外我們優化我們的所有這個零二氰針針的相關設備也可以徵收到相關的設備"},{"start":102.501,"end":128.838,"text":"可以建設建議你們除了無人機之外還有什麼無人艇來往下看之前我跟您海巡都有建議過無人艇的運作模式無人艇的好處它不會累它可以在待命模式然後呢出去執行任務然後它還可以返航那這時候呢很重要的我們都知道目前的無人載具啊自動巡標自主導控很重要那就無人艇來講要訓練它就要影像識別要日間的夜間的這需要高階鏡面需要紅外線這個大概是無人艇的運作模式往下看"},{"start":129.679,"end":149.658,"text":"好 那麼如果是搭配海巡也有這種做法 比如說我們無人艇搭配無人機自動巡航 那麼像這個辨識目標後 它就接近驅離那如果以海巡來講 我們主要是驅離嘛 哪些環節你覺得如果用無人艇來協助海巡對這些不明船舶或灰色滋擾 您覺得有哪些地方可以加強的"},{"start":152.659,"end":173.634,"text":"我非常佩服委員 委員也經常提供先進的資訊給我我這邊特別要回答委員海巡組在這次特別任性條例裡面有編列了一筆預算也就是專門做水面的溫庭跟水下的溫宅局部分另外在空中的部分也都是並行在一起來處理"},{"start":175.115,"end":195.835,"text":"這三者來聯合起來就可以做成三維的立體的聯合性偵測的部分那另外無人艇主要的好處就是它自來時間很長然後也可以維護我們人員在服務群上的安全另外對於風險高風險的這些船舶譬如說是這個可疑的船舶那我們用無人艇先去先徵收然後也可以保護我們人員的安全是的"},{"start":196.235,"end":213.223,"text":"所以吳仁廷出任務可以透過AI加持他需要影像資料來加以訓練因為影像辨識跟自動尋標你要AI是自動化辨識需要大量的影像要有模型訓練要準確還能識破偽裝請問海巡組要如何取得大量的海上平面影像資料庫"},{"start":215.894,"end":235.573,"text":"除了我們平常聯合輕針針以外還有國防部跟友軍提供的這些資訊以外另外我們從空中的這個偵搜的也可以做到很好 你講到空中那我們來看一下往下看跟中跟追蹤是不太一樣的文人挺訓練學校的影像呢如果說今天我們透過高空的偵蹤像瑞恩二行"},{"start":236.354,"end":254.64,"text":"上面往下俯瞰這時候看到的是一樣是一種資料但是無人艇如果他要自主自主導控他需要的是什麼他需要的是水平的圖像不然的話你要在瑞淵上面告訴你來船在哪裡船在哪裡因為你分不出誰是誰所以呢無人艇他是需要水平的還是需要垂直的影像"},{"start":256.249,"end":275.269,"text":"水平水平很好所以目前我就往下走了好 那個水平影像我們給你一個參考的例子大家有聽過Google的街景車對不對它在隨著道路這樣走它可以把這個都市的3D影像測會出來但是也有人說那個計程車滿街跑啊"},{"start":276.21,"end":281.554,"text":"計程車上面有那個行車記錄器啊如果要知道的不是道路周邊的建築是道路上的車輛的話搞不好計程車上面的行車記錄器就會成為影像的取得來源您覺得如果以這兩個做比喻"},{"start":291.221,"end":293.463,"text":"您覺得未來海上的平面影像是要透過專屬的配置的船艦去取得還是可以用一些其他的作業的船隻幫我們順便取得海面上我們的守備海域上相關的影像 船舶的影像"},{"start":307.711,"end":335.341,"text":"跟尾巴這兩個都是方法之一那其實如果是針對特定的標的特定的地方特定我們還是建議用那個有目的性的專屬的船艦那另外如果廣域的部分這一個部分我們有很多的方式譬如說我們的漁船譬如說我們其他在航的艦船艇還有其他的商務員都可以從事也幫我們做這件事情所以我知道從高空的影像現在影像資料庫有得買"},{"start":336.192,"end":351.99,"text":"但是那是很多國家他們通過衛星大量收集的但是我們海巡巡弋的防衛我們不用到歐洲不用到北海我們有台灣附近的海域這個海域的空間有限我們集中取得這水瓶的影像資料這個我們請海巡去研究一下好再往下走"},{"start":353.692,"end":375.17,"text":"好 那麼請教一下 其實除了無人艇 除了海巡之外 軍方也在可以使用我們看一下 如果以FDA無人機跟無人艇來看的話大概無人機跟無人艇在我們軍事上的使用大概有幾個不一樣無人機是一次性的 而且訓練的損耗很高無人艇就算它有攻擊型 它在沒有攻擊後 它還是可以平安返航無人機比較困難"},{"start":378.072,"end":391.502,"text":"無人機的迭代更新很快無人艇的迭代更新沒那麼快所以基本上我們無人機會用買的但是無人艇的部分其實有一種可能就是租賃無人艇應用場景多元是否應該全部買到我請問副部長您看法呢您覺得未來軍方在建置無人機跟無人艇它的一個取得的方式有沒有不同"},{"start":402.146,"end":427.867,"text":"現在的確如委員所講這個無人機不只FPV啦它這個因為疊帶有針尖型的不同的是的確是它的那個疊帶更新的確是很快所以我們像我們特別預算的話我們是逐年它都要改變標準分批逐年買對 一定要這樣子但是無人艇的基本上我來往下看其實無人艇呢我們就以永陰高校機跟主力戰機來看好了我們的永陰高校機我們是自製的"},{"start":428.968,"end":451.271,"text":"它的推力 相關的性能 雖然較主力在於消訓一點但最大的差別 它的上面的電子偵控的電控系統呢 它比較沒有那麼先進因為訓練的時候 你不需要直接雷達射控都OK但是呢 如果我們用無人艇來說今天如果我們國家建置無人艇的一個部隊 假設要一千艘"},{"start":452.252,"end":473.732,"text":"那你要先什麼 先訓練人員嘛那這時候有沒有考慮過先要有一個用教育訓練為主的無人艇用租賃的方式來提供給海軍包括說我們有海軍專長訓練中心那無人機跟無人艇差別在嘛無人機如果訓練不好掉下來就砸了無人艇不會 但是無人艇要什麼 要維修所以呢無人艇的建軍"},{"start":474.753,"end":490.183,"text":"除了我們一線作戰用的軍備要用購買的之外有沒有可能考慮用本土來建立我們訓練就像永硬一樣用這種方式來用租賃的方式提供售後服務還可以迭代更新的方式來作為我們海軍建置我們無人艇部隊的一個方法各位請海軍三分長恢復來請"},{"start":497.303,"end":520.393,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們訓練的這個部分我們那個無人艇因為我們主要的目的是用來供洗所以就算要租賃的話也必須要廠商願意去產製那個跟我們自殺型無人艇一模一樣的艇才有辦法做訓練使用所以說永英跟我們的主力戰機難道不能相容嗎"},{"start":521.735,"end":528.497,"text":"對不對 所以我們空軍用無人 泳鷹 泳鷹做高校機它如果正在戰爭的時候 它裝上了最先進的射控雷達它裝上了武裝 它也是一個戰機啊所以無人艇它在 我只是說在無人艇因為它好處是什麼它訓練的時候的損耗跟無人機是不同的它浮在水上嘛 操作失誤也不會全毀嘛所以是請海軍思考一下未來我們海軍在建設無人艇建軍的時候除了購買先進 最先進的這種自殺性的無人艇"},{"start":551.044,"end":551.747,"text":"它有很好的反干扰很好的增光"},{"start":555.694,"end":579.626,"text":"一個控制設備,很好的電子反制設備之外那麼在訓練的時候不需要開這個嘛訓練的時候我們教學他會操作他會,因為他要自主導航那麼這種情況之下是不是海軍在建制無人艇部隊的時候也應該參考空軍的主力戰機的方式自主研發我們本土型的類似勇鷹的這樣的高校機讓我們的海軍的人才培訓可以跟著他使用的器材與時俱進,可以嗎?對,做我們的練習參考"},{"start":582.287,"end":603.721,"text":"好 謝謝 那我最後就是請副副長跟海委會 海委會請評估海象影像資料庫的建立方式最後一頁及內容形式 好不好回去評估一下除了高空的 水平的 水平的除了專船之外是不是也可以考慮其他船舶來提供 可以嗎可以好 副部長 那麼請國防部就無人艦艇採購模式是我居足夠併行的可能提出說明報告 可以嗎"},{"start":605.262,"end":621.614,"text":"是 謝謝謝謝委員指示好 那在最後一點時間在上週我們在場的召委我們的陳召委他舉辦了一個海上防衛無人論壇我去聽了一點小段我覺得非常的精彩內容非常豐富不曉得我們國防部有沒有請人去參考有沒有有沒有人請人去收集那邊的意見好像沒有受邀建議你們不是受邀沒有受邀要主動去關心瞭解如果你們有人去收集這些相關的意見"},{"start":635.085,"end":647.111,"text":"我是持肯定開放的態度我覺得這個論壇辦得非常好如果國安部有去多收集民間的聲音也可以參考如果你們參考的資料還不夠你也可以提供給我一份讓我來參考一下可以嗎"},{"start":648.936,"end":667.856,"text":"好 謝謝委員那個 朝委不好意思我講錯了 我講錯了有來有來是不是因為我不知道 不好意思不好意思OK 有有有有來啦齁那如果你們那個報告除了內參機敏的部分以外的部分可以給我們也參考一下因為我覺得辦得很好我們希望未來我們國家建軍防衛的方向應該是軍民各方面重複來進行好不好好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}