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13:40:09","會議時間":"2026-04-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、國防部副部長徐斯儉、內政部、海洋委員會報告「針對近期中國籍小型船隻非法侵入我國領海之偵搜漏洞檢討、科技監偵設備建置進度與精進作為」，併請大陸委員會、交通部列席，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.8915937500000001,"end":2.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.9334687500000003,"end":4.8572187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.10846875,"end":20.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.07409375,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.32284375,"end":26.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.76096875,"end":28.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.718468750000003,"end":47.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.04284375,"end":32.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.876593750000005,"end":43.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.74909375,"end":51.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.49534375,"end":54.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.617218750000006,"end":56.157218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.40596875000001,"end":59.19471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.12284375,"end":65.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.65784375,"end":71.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.78346875,"end":73.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.99409375,"end":76.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.42409375000001,"end":77.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.79096875,"end":83.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.91659375,"end":86.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.02159375000001,"end":88.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.56971875,"end":96.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.92721875000001,"end":97.99034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.15471875,"end":100.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.07846875000001,"end":102.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.85034375000001,"end":112.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.50284375000001,"end":113.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.41409375,"end":118.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.18971875000001,"end":121.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.81784375000001,"end":122.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.86409375000001,"end":126.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.47534375000001,"end":133.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.23784375,"end":135.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.16159375,"end":136.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.22909375,"end":136.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.24596875,"end":136.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.29659375,"end":138.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.31346875,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.32534375,"end":142.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.79284375,"end":160.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.11971875,"end":173.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.30346875,"end":194.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.39846875,"end":186.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.08596875,"end":188.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.55784375000002,"end":237.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.74721875,"end":196.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.15346875,"end":215.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.39284375000003,"end":222.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.42659375000002,"end":222.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.81034375000002,"end":223.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.87784375,"end":224.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.23221875000002,"end":224.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.80596875,"end":225.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.30596875,"end":238.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.36909375000002,"end":242.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.30534375000002,"end":248.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.25784375,"end":263.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.55096875000004,"end":321.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.73159375,"end":327.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.25409375000004,"end":328.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":329.27909375,"end":349.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.83284375,"end":352.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":352.65096875,"end":362.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":363.07971875000004,"end":410.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.65034375000005,"end":411.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":411.05534375,"end":413.53596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":414.31221875,"end":415.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.10096875000005,"end":417.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":421.14659375,"end":421.61909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":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日本 韓國甚至菲律賓都緊急狀態"},{"start":315.375,"end":321.547,"text":"作戰戰爭是中國絕對不可以採取的做法我想我們對外的敘事也必須要思考要什麼樣的外交敘事"},{"start":322.799,"end":348.768,"text":"是要用憤怒的外交敘事還是有智慧的方式讓他們知道說我們跟他們不太一樣應該是說完全不一樣我正因為完全不同不代表說這就不能夠有對話我們還是鼓勵對話但是以實力作為基礎的對話那才是有效的對話沒有實力基礎的話你帶回來的是一張紙這張紙隨時都可以撕破就如同1930年代英國的前首相他說他帶回來這個時代的和平的隔年之後"},{"start":349.888,"end":369.722,"text":"二戰就全部的席捲歐洲只有實力才能夠達成和平只有國防的能量才能達成和平只有國防的能量加上對話才能達成和平缺一不可所以對於國民黨或者是在野黨想要跟中國對話我的態度也是一樣可以建立在國防自主"},{"start":370.262,"end":386.475,"text":"建立在國防的能力之上所以我們還是呼籲接下來我們的國防的特別條例裡面有許多就是像我們今天講的我們的海洋偵測等等的都必須要具備那這是我們的論述我也希望大家可以仔細思考一下是要每次只強調價值"},{"start":387.836,"end":415.125,"text":"或者是每次只強調利益台灣的價值跟台灣的利益到底是什麼要把它結合起來那這樣子的話我們在國際上面才會有說服力不要像過去這個就外交部斷交很多國家之後那一樣同樣一套那同樣一套證明沒有用新的做法包含新的外交部長他們就有他們新的做法出來了這其實都是可以做審閱都可以去思考的謝謝謝謝局長我們接下來請這一個國防部跟海委會"},{"start":416.604,"end":437.521,"text":"請國防部海委會委員好副部長好副部長這個剛才有幾位委員有提到說我們在識別這個船隻的這個狀況了那有些是當然是漁業署海委會可能會用AIS或者是VMS嘛那國防部有不同的系統我們這樣講這樣理解對不對"},{"start":441.378,"end":446.101,"text":"我們的雷達系統跟海巡是不一樣但是我們彼此分享雷型"},{"start":470.738,"end":483.497,"text":"是那在這樣的狀況之下我們到底要怎麼樣辨別目標物而且是特別我們今天有提到的報告物前面提到的這些目標非常的小那我怎麼知道我們看到它了那它是我們還是對方的我們怎麼如何去知道"},{"start":487.328,"end":505.124,"text":"這邊跟委員報告我們對於海上目標的掌握除了剛剛講的這幾個系統PMS IAS這些以外還有國防部提供的電偵措的所有的這些配套通通是納到我們這一個聯合勤奸爭的範圍裡面另外對於不小心把友軍當成是對方的"},{"start":506.394,"end":527.792,"text":"另外這一個對於小型目標的判別部分我們有幾個評估的標準第一個部分就是它是直接往這邊衝航速超過我們的這個判斷標準另外一個部分它是不是直接衝案另外一個部分它是從哪邊過來然後它過來以後它是朝哪個方向所以說它的軌跡跟它的"},{"start":532.156,"end":555.616,"text":"這是我們判別的一個標準不管是衛星也好或者是雷達也好或者是各種的監測體系我們必須要長時間不斷的堆疊你才能夠判別它的方向跟它的意圖我們這樣來說吧對不對但是衛星的這個監測的時間有其局限性我們現在有沒有把這個東西克服了"},{"start":557.215,"end":580.414,"text":"跟委員報告,就是偽光衛星影像部分,我們要大量的去採購相關的衛星的這個影像另外要建立長期要建立資料庫,如果這個目標進來以後我們沒有去識別,它在我們列達上面的顯示是沒有意義的所以要透過人工,透過相關的這些AI去判別說它對我是不是威脅目標,我們再去做後續的處理"},{"start":581.235,"end":598.814,"text":"那另外一部分的時候假設首先我們是做判別去做對目標的監測那有些時候可能不是對方做這樣子的做法可能也是我方 我們可能是友軍喔但是在友軍的部分我們現在有沒有完成去衝突化去衝突化的這個互操作性特別是對美國"},{"start":599.855,"end":626.997,"text":"我必須強調上次我們在開論壇的時候這些前海軍少將這個蒙哥馬利就有提到說台美的互相的這個操作區是糟透了他提到說這會導致無人載具沒有辦法有效識別而產生有軍的誤擊有軍的這種可能性的災難他說不僅僅是無人載具包含這個即時的就是說在我們的可能是我們既得監跟對方的這個驅逐區他說他們要建立這種秘密通訊的話"},{"start":628.098,"end":646.368,"text":"如果是跟澳洲是完全整合的幾乎是可以及時的跟日韓數十分鐘可是跟台灣還要一兩天我必須要強調說我們現在想的所有的能力的獲得武器的獲得能力的獲得等等它是需要時間並且需要資金甚至是特別預算"},{"start":647.228,"end":665.454,"text":"但是這不是我們能夠我此時此刻我沒有辦法完全控制我必須還要說服在野黨但我們現在能夠控制的就是怎麼樣增強互相的可操作性那當然過去因為台灣的特殊的國際地位那美國可能會比較會re-locked但是"},{"start":667.474,"end":694.647,"text":"現在此時不比以往了台灣的國際地位在增加台美之間的國際合作在增加是不是要思考首先從去衝突化到更好的整合讓台美之間的船舶也好或者是這些軍機軍艦全部都把它放在裡面能夠先從去衝突化開始再往上走這個是不是我們可以做的是不是請副部長可以簡單是謝謝委員的指教我們會往這個方向來努力盡快好吧因為"},{"start":696.437,"end":717.646,"text":"衝突可能是在明天 可能是在今天那如果沒有一個實現的話這個部隊最近常去美國我想這個比任何武器的獲得都還要重要就是首先能夠先確定敵我之間的這個去衝突的話跟友軍之間的這個秘密通訊的這個速度要提升這個應該是很具體的目標 好不好是好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}