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這部分早上跟媒體朋友在做說明這一次中共的操作大概有三個層面戰略面就強調台海的核戰是由他來主導來排除外力的介入另外一部分是在政治上強調所謂的中華民族的偉大復興還有兩岸和平的制度化"},{"start":90.222,"end":106.428,"text":"內容都只有中華人民共和國的語彙導到所謂的一中的政治框架那再來就是經濟上的一個吸納來增加我們對它的一個經濟市場力量有啊 它的金馬四通也好 或者公共國際市場當然那個議題要好好討論 而且應該是政府對政府那個是建立一程度"},{"start":107.348,"end":127.074,"text":"把他內化進去我剛才問的是說我們國安會有沒有針對這個局勢因為後面還有川習會有沒有針對這個進行討論我們都有在各部會交換相關的意見那也對於最新的發展由各部會來對外做完整的所以國安會有進行討論那我要請教啦就你們目前分析這個所謂十大會台會的是誰"},{"start":128.712,"end":150.991,"text":"對,我今天早上就跟媒體說明了這種所謂會台措施大概每到台灣選舉期間就會被提出來討論那兩岸的觀光或是農漁產品的採購也是歷來都被拿出來做中方的一個操作那所以我們在解讀上認為這是一個統戰跟競選的一個手法我看起來不管叫中小企業去投資現在中國的經濟下滑嘛"},{"start":151.872,"end":176.606,"text":"台灣的經濟還不錯去投資到底是匯到誰那比方說他又要開放農產品農產品我們吃的虧還不夠多啊2019年以前我們台灣的農產品80%其實是內銷的兩成左右外銷以前兩成左右外銷像我們關廟的鳳梨我們外銷大概有八成多以前依賴中國市場他莫名其妙沒有理由的一下鳳梨一下蓮霧一下鳳梨釋迦"},{"start":179.124,"end":201.965,"text":"他想要製造我們外銷的農產品出不去回來影響到我們國內市場以農逼政後來從2020年開始前政府蔡英文政府到現在我們的分散市場已經把對中國依賴的八成左右現在降到大概10%上下已經壓低了像鳳梨現在日本是我們第一大市場我請教陸委會副主委這是你的業務"},{"start":203.246,"end":223.983,"text":"有關中國的十大會台他有一個政治前提他的一中是沒有中華民國的啦他的反台獨中國的反台獨是台灣中華民國維持現狀任何主權形式的用途他都定義成台獨他加了兩個政治前提才要跟你隱世交流才要跟你中小企業等等等等"},{"start":224.884,"end":232.512,"text":"然後他這個過程是單向決定沒有我們政府的角色透過在野黨扶植在國內的附庸陸委會對這事情態度是什麼"},{"start":237.353,"end":260.561,"text":"陸委會的看法是這樣就是說這一次對中共來講的話它所獲得的不管在統戰上的效果在國際社會上面的宣傳的效果對美中台關係影響的效果然後對接下來可能美台軍售的影響效果都遠遠大於這十項所謂的會台措施"},{"start":261.98,"end":280.652,"text":"就是說中共整個他在宣傳上的這個得到的好處這個實相措施是根本是遠遠不能比的這實相措施其實你仔細看了他其實過去都是曾經有過的都講過的比較新的可能就是所謂遠洋漁船的這個部分"},{"start":281.493,"end":304.769,"text":"那這個部分我們還在研究但是其他的部分其實對台灣的不管是他其實其他是舊瓶裝舊酒不過你剛才講的翻譯起來是說這個十大會談以前都提過了對那對台灣有沒有什麼好處遠不如對中國的好處沒有錯甚至於對台灣的傷害有關對美軍購啦我們對外的相關的事情安全的事務那個傷害"},{"start":305.529,"end":323.974,"text":"弊大於利你剛才表達的是這個嗎沒有錯我請教他們說要開放自由行我們現在政府的態度是什麼自由行也是兩岸相關協議的其中的一個部分自由行跟團體行都是我們過去曾經有過的協議的一部分"},{"start":324.514,"end":349.672,"text":"那自由行他們是2019年就把它片面斷掉了那所以要再開的話這個就跟要重開這個團體行是一樣的也就是說我們還是希望說兩邊的小兩會能夠先做會談會談把一些東西敲定之後再來進行但是因為我們一直發出多次的呼籲希望對方能夠跟我們重新啟動小兩會的"},{"start":352.033,"end":373.211,"text":"這個協商但是目前對方是完全沒有回應所以團體型的部分一直都卡在這邊那現在又突然又要講說要自由行那我覺得狀況還是一樣就是說不管團體型自由行都是要他們的口頭表示是開放可是作為上根本是不處理對作為上沒有他完全不處理譬如說他說他幾個兩三個月前"},{"start":377.134,"end":397.772,"text":"宣布說什麼上海上海可以到上海居民可以到金門馬祖但是到目前為止他們並沒有宣布具體的措施因為那個不是開放就開放我要去你家也要約時間啊對沒有錯要從門進去還是從窗進去那一樣的一個國家要入境有很多東西要處理所以他現在在實質的作為上沒有做法"},{"start":398.372,"end":420.263,"text":"恐會而實不至目前沒有看到目前阻擋的不是我們嘛我們是開放的態度大家可以來談他現在是不跟我們的官方談片面要放那上一次說上海可以到金門到目前為止也沒有實質的執行層次的磋商都沒有沒有錯因為大陸大陸人民他要到台灣來他必須當地的公安局他必須要說"},{"start":421.884,"end":441.852,"text":"大家可以來申請我可以批准你到我們講這個大同鎮批准你到台灣去那現在上海市的不然是上海市的公安局也好福建市的公安局也好福建省的公安局也好都沒有宣布說上海居民可以申請到台灣去的旅遊簽證"},{"start":443.152,"end":469.414,"text":"所以就是一個口頭宣示沒有實質做法不過他好像很刻意的就是迴避跟台灣民選的政府進行接觸這個是不切實際的啦公權力台灣是民主國家公權力的授權來自於人民選舉的結果你迴避公權力的授權怎麼處理入出境的問題好那個副主委先請回我繼續請教我們國安局局長那也請國安部副部長上來啦"},{"start":471.44,"end":479.526,"text":"我現在這個是發想有關這一個掃雷的東西那個梁文傑副主委可以回座"},{"start":481.873,"end":510.051,"text":"現在我們從塑膠袋到石油到柏油AC其實都因為荷姆茲海峽鎖住了造成全球這個部分的需求量暴增供應量不足所以坦白講先不講大的經濟層面的影響其實對我們的民生各方面的需求其實有些影響那在地緣政治上你也看到了川普一直表達說你們都是我的好朋友都沒有來幫忙他還威脅要退出北約"},{"start":511.613,"end":523.644,"text":"那當然我們台灣在能參與的事務很有限美國也未必能接受所以我請教國安局跟國防部的副部長在安全無虞的前提下"},{"start":524.83,"end":546.963,"text":"在物料後勤補給可以得到備援下我們台灣適不適合表達我們願意支援雷雷掃雷雖然我們現在有的我們這個有的量人不高而且都是禁案的就是不管是永豐籍的永進籍的那表達我們的意願這個gesture國安局認為如何"},{"start":548.025,"end":571.827,"text":"委員提的是一個假設性的議題這未必假設 你表達出去他接受了是一件事情 他不接受 感謝你的善意也是一件事情當現在荷姆茲海峽 其實現在因為水雷就算他們停戰協議停完了 兩邊不打了船也不好過去 就是因為水雷的問題裡面遍佈數千枚水雷"},{"start":572.668,"end":584.505,"text":"那我們如果向美方表達說我們願意支援列雷掃雷但是我們有一些顧慮安全啦後勤補給啦表達這樣的意願他不是假設而是說這樣表達適不適合"},{"start":586.226,"end":611.645,"text":"基本上因為我會講的是假設性問題是目前並不是一個議題那假如像委員的這樣一個推論的話那就國安局的角度我只代表國安局來做評估的話我們會注意到的是整體的中東的安全情勢那以及台灣畢竟跟其他的美國盟友不太一樣我們還必須要審慎的評估我們當面敵情的動態你才有辦法去做一些相關病例的調整跟調度那當然後續還有一個能量的評估畢竟"},{"start":612.425,"end":625.912,"text":"中共地區還是比較有一些後勤補給設施必須要處理的局勢也複雜所以這部分可能是比較複雜的我請教國防部副部長你從赫姆茲在海峽其實就了解其實"},{"start":627.603,"end":652.802,"text":"水雷這個或者智慧水雷這種不對稱戰力其實你看伊朗伊朗跟美軍的實力那個沒辦法比較的可是他用水雷把赫姆斯海峽封住了所以我現在請教你請你簡短回答第一個就是我國當然我們前面造了幾艘布雷艇我們的布雷跟智慧水雷的進度第二個我們現在掃雷艦我在去年看到你們的報告要走向所謂的智慧排雷"},{"start":653.542,"end":670.82,"text":"無人載具的排雷這個進度如何第三個一樣的問題在安全後勤補給無餘下台灣去表達這樣的gesture說我們願意支援川普 願意支援美國國防部的評估如何這三個題目請你回答"},{"start":671.624,"end":696.244,"text":"先回答委員第三個題目當然委員這個想法相當有創意我們是沒有這麼想過但是我想關鍵還是委員講的兩個前提就是後勤補給跟保障方面那我們那個船這您可以看到並不大要開到荷姆斯恐怕很難開過去了沒辦法可能要用船載的方式"},{"start":696.804,"end":710.584,"text":"那這個就恐怕要看這個條件具不具足另外剛才國安局局長也說了我們也非常同意其實我們台海周邊戰備的負荷是很重的所以這個"},{"start":713.287,"end":740.782,"text":"貢建常常在襲擾那我們這個非常有限的掃雷的戰力是不是合出去我們還要評估不過委員這個想法我們再回去評估這是那個前提很重要我只是說這個議題可以思考但是第一題跟第二題才是真正的命題我們自己的水雷智慧水雷的能力我們自己的排雷 列雷 掃雷的能力國防部現在有沒有計畫因為我看我們預算都放在"},{"start":741.704,"end":753.456,"text":"主力艦一級艦二級艦三級艦那對於這一種其實老舊的船艦資源性的船艦其實蠻嚴重的啦國防部目前有什麼想法我們請海軍參謀長回答一下"},{"start":757.731,"end":782.931,"text":"韓軍常務長 針對委員的題目我們這邊回答狀況是第一個有關掃雷的建制我們目前持續在做但是我們是重點在濱海作戰的這個區域裡面不管是掃雷或是真雷你們無人載具掃雷的部分開始做了嗎我們是後續在規劃 是還在規劃當中嗎 是沒有實施的戰力掃雷的載具的部分有關掃雷艇的部分我們就持續建案在執行的"},{"start":784.391,"end":804.398,"text":"所以你認為我們現在掃雷、排雷的能力夠不夠?我們在持續在做就是遠遠不夠嗎?我們布雷的能力呢?布雷的能力包含了整備的能力還有後續我們剛剛有關建造,持續在建造布雷艇的部分我們數量會持續的增加,目前在持續的建構中"},{"start":805.937,"end":820.498,"text":"有啦,前幾年在榮德那邊造了幾艘嘛那智慧水雷的進度呢?這個持續在車禍中你這樣也沒有回答今年會弄出來嗎?目前是在努力中"},{"start":821.482,"end":841.191,"text":"因為我們之前看到某一個美商有提供一種型號嘛是那個有進行討論嗎有有討論是那有要做還是還在討論中我們是在討論中是我覺得荷姆斯海峽是一個很好的借鏡是那時間未必站在我們這邊啦是你們持續加油謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:06:46.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:06:49.594000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩請國安局局長跟陸委會副主委。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T10:06:50.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:06:52.881000+08:00","text":"請國安局局長以及陸委會副主委。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T10:06:52.881000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:07:01.441000+08:00","text":"王委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:07:01.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:07:33.937000+08:00","text":"局長，我先請教你，在民主的臺灣最大的在野黨──國民黨去訪問中國、跟中共的總書記習近平見面之後，中國端出了所謂十大惠臺，我昨天有仔細看過了，這和以前的二十一惠臺、十五惠臺都很像，這個十大惠臺是加了政治前提，弄了一個政治架構，是單向的迴避臺灣政府參與。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:07:34.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:07:48.692000+08:00","text":"我先請教國安局，有關我們臺灣的在野黨訪問中國這件事情以及中國因應的局勢，國安會有沒有進行過討論？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T10:07:48.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:07:59.277000+08:00","text":"對這部分今天早上也有跟媒體朋友說明，這一次中共的操作大概有三個層面，在戰略面就是強調臺海的和戰是由他來主導，排除外力的介入。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T10:08:00.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:08:06.922000+08:00","text":"另外一部分是在政治上強調所謂的中華民族偉大復興還有兩岸和平的制度化發展……","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:08:08.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:08:10.883000+08:00","text":"內容都只有中華人民共和國的語彙。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T10:08:10.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:08:13.984000+08:00","text":"對，導到所謂一中的政治框架。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T10:08:14.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:08:17.946000+08:00","text":"再來就是經濟上的吸納，來增加我們對他的經濟市場依賴。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:08:18.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:08:23.107000+08:00","text":"有，他的金馬四通也好，或者是共用機場，當然那個議題要好好地討論，而且應該是政府對政府。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T10:08:23.107000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:08:24.107000+08:00","text":"對，我們早上有做這樣的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:08:23.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:08:26.268000+08:00","text":"那個是建立依存度，把它內化進去。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:08:26.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:08:32.190000+08:00","text":"我剛才問的是國安會有沒有針對這個局勢進行討論，因為後面還有川習會，你們有沒有針對這個進行討論？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T10:08:32.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:08:38.732000+08:00","text":"有，我們各部會都有交換相關的意見，關於最新的發展，由各部會來對外做完整的說明。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:08:38.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:08:40.412000+08:00","text":"所以國安會有進行討論？有。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:08:40.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:08:45.074000+08:00","text":"我要請教局長，就你們目前的分析，所謂的「十大惠臺」惠的是誰？","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T10:08:46.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:09:04.728000+08:00","text":"我今天早上也有跟媒體說明了，這種所謂的惠臺措施大概每到臺灣選舉期間就會被提出來討論，那兩岸的觀光或是農漁產品的採購歷來也都被拿出來做中方的一個操作，所以我們在解讀上認為這是一個統戰跟介選的手法。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:09:05.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:09:13.394000+08:00","text":"我看到有叫中小企業去投資，可是現在中國的經濟下滑，臺灣的經濟還不錯，去投資到底是惠到誰？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:09:13.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:09:17.977000+08:00","text":"比方說他又要開放農產品，我們在農產品方面吃的虧還不夠多啊？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:09:18.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:09:58.063000+08:00","text":"在2019年以前，我們臺灣的農產品其實有80%是內銷，只有兩成左右外銷，以前像我們關廟的鳳梨外銷大概有八成多依賴中國市場，他就是莫名其妙、沒有理由，一下鳳梨、一下蓮霧、一下鳳梨釋迦，他想要造成我們外銷的農產品出不去而影響到我們國內的市場，以農逼政，後來從2020年開始，在前政府蔡英文政府時期我們就分散市場，到現在把對中國依賴的八成左右降到大概10%上下，已經壓低了，像現在日本是我們鳳梨的第一大市場。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:09:58.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:10:21.963000+08:00","text":"我請教陸委會副主委，因為這是你的業務，中國的十大惠臺有一個政治前提，他的一中是沒有中華民國的，中國的反臺獨是臺灣中華民國維持現狀，任何主權形式的他都定義成臺獨，他加了兩個政治前提，才會跟你做影視交流，才會幫你的中小企業等等。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:10:22.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:10:30.512000+08:00","text":"然後他這個過程是單向決定，沒有我們政府的角色，透過在野黨扶植在國內的附庸，陸委會對這個事情的態度是什麼？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T10:10:35.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:08.886000+08:00","text":"陸委會的看法就是這一次對中共來講，他所獲得的，不管是在統戰上的效果、在國際社會上的宣傳效果、對美中臺關係影響的效果或是對接下來可能美臺軍售的影響效果，都遠遠大於這十項所謂的惠臺措施，就是中共整個在宣傳上所得到的好處，這十項措施根本是遠遠不能相比的。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:09.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:24.616000+08:00","text":"如果你仔細看這十項措施，其實都是過去曾經有過的、都是講過的，比較新的可能就是遠洋漁船這個部分，對這個部分我們還在研究，但是其他的部分其實對臺灣的……","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:25.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:27.518000+08:00","text":"其實其他的是舊瓶裝舊酒。對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:28.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:32.742000+08:00","text":"你剛才講的意思就是這個十大惠臺以前都提過了。對。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:33.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:35.904000+08:00","text":"如果要講對臺灣有沒有什麼好處，其實對臺灣的好處遠不如對中國的好處。","quality":0.613},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:35.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:36.504000+08:00","text":"沒有錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:36.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:45.730000+08:00","text":"甚至於對臺灣有傷害，包括對美軍購、我們對外一些相關的事情和安全的事務，其實是弊大於利，你剛才表達的是這個嘛！","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:45.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:47.250000+08:00","text":"沒有錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:47.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:11:51.931000+08:00","text":"我請教你，他們說要開放自由行，現在我們政府的態度是什麼？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T10:11:51.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:12:19.606000+08:00","text":"自由行也是兩岸相關協議其中的一個部分，自由行跟團體行都是我們過去曾經有過的協議的一部分，自由行他們在2019年就把它片面斷掉了，所以要再開的話就跟要重開團體行是一樣的，也就是我們還是希望兩邊的小兩會能夠先會談，會談把一些東西敲定之後再來進行。","quality":0.991},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T10:12:20.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:12:42.684000+08:00","text":"我們一直發出多次呼籲，希望對方能夠跟我們重新啟動小兩會的協商，但是目前對方完全沒有回應，所以團體行的部分一直都卡在這邊，現在又突然講要自由行，我覺得狀況還是一樣，不管團體行或自由行都是要討論。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:12:42.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:12:47.328000+08:00","text":"所以他們口頭表示開放，可是作為上是根本不處理？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T10:12:47.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:12:48.709000+08:00","text":"對，作為上沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:12:48.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:12:49.610000+08:00","text":"他完全不處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T10:12:49.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:13:04.382000+08:00","text":"譬如他兩、三個月前宣布上海居民可以到金門、馬祖，但是到目前為止，他們並沒有宣布具體的措施。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:13:04.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:13:07.685000+08:00","text":"因為那個不是說開放就開放，我要去你家也要約時間啊！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T10:13:08.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:13:08.866000+08:00","text":"對，沒有錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:13:08.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:13:10.207000+08:00","text":"要從門進出去還是爬窗進去？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:13:10.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:13:15.752000+08:00","text":"一樣的，一個國家入境有很多東西要處理，所以他現在在實質的作為上沒有做法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T10:13:15.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:13:17.473000+08:00","text":"是，目前沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:13:17.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:13:18.053000+08:00","text":"口惠而實不至。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T10:13:18.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:13:19.254000+08:00","text":"目前沒有看到。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:13:19.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:13:25.217000+08:00","text":"所以目前阻擋的不是我們，我們是開放的態度，大家可以來談，他現在不跟我們的官方談，片面要放。對。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:13:26.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:13:32.400000+08:00","text":"上一次說上海可以到金門，到目前為止也沒有實質的，在執行層次的磋商都沒有？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T10:13:32.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:13:48.427000+08:00","text":"對，沒有錯，因為大陸人民要到臺灣來，當地的公安局必須讓大家可以來申請，可以批准他們到臺灣，就是我們講的大通證，批准他們到臺灣。","quality":0.768},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T10:13:49.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:14:01.312000+08:00","text":"現在不管是上海市的公安局也好、福建省的公安局也好，都沒有宣布上海居民可以申請到臺灣去的旅遊簽證，所以目前都沒有申請。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:14:01.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:14:12.301000+08:00","text":"就是一個口頭宣示，沒有實質做法，不過他好像很刻意的迴避跟臺灣民選的政府進行接觸，這個是不切實際的啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"梁副主任委員文傑","start":"2026-04-13T10:14:12.301000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:14:13.903000+08:00","text":"是，沒有錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:14:13.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:14:21.529000+08:00","text":"臺灣是民主國家，公權力的授權來自於人民選舉的結果，你迴避公權力的授權，怎麼處理入出境的問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:14:22.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:14:27.394000+08:00","text":"副主委先請回，我繼續請教國安局局長，也請國防部副部長上來。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:14:29.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:14:50.360000+08:00","text":"我現在是發想有關掃雷的東西，我們從塑膠袋到石油、到柏油（AC），都因為荷姆茲海峽鎖住了，造成全球的需求量暴增，供應量不足。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:14:51.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:15:00.206000+08:00","text":"坦白講，先不講大的經濟層面的影響，其實對我們民生各方面的需求都有些影響。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:00.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:15:08.051000+08:00","text":"在地緣政治上，你也看到了，川普一直表達你們都是我的好朋友，但都沒有來幫忙，所以他也威脅要退出北約嘛！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:10.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:15:32.115000+08:00","text":"當然，我們臺灣能參與的事務很有限，美國也未必能接受，所以我請教國安局跟國防部的副部長，在安全無虞、在物料後勤補給可以得到備援的前提下，我們臺灣適不適合表達願意支援獵雷、掃雷？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:32.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:15:44.943000+08:00","text":"雖然我們現在有的量能不高，而且都是近岸的，不管是永豐級的或永靖級的，表達我們的意願gesture，國安局認為如何？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:46.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:15:50.670000+08:00","text":"我想委員提的是一個假設性的議題啦！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:50.670000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:15:51.670000+08:00","text":"基本上……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:50.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:15:56.235000+08:00","text":"這未必假設啊，你表達出去，他接受了是一件事情，他不接受，但感謝你的善意也是一件事情。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:15:57.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:16:09.807000+08:00","text":"當現在荷姆茲海峽因為水雷，他們就算有停戰協議了，兩邊不打了，船也不好過去，就是因為水雷的問題，裡面遍佈數千枚水雷。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:16:10.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:16:22.485000+08:00","text":"我們如果向美方表達我們願意支援獵雷、掃雷，但是我們有一些安全、後勤補給顧慮，表達這樣的意願，不是假設，而是這樣表達適不適合？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T10:16:24.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:16:28.389000+08:00","text":"對啊，基本上會講這是假設性的問題，因為目前並不是一個議題啦！","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T10:16:28.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:16:55.007000+08:00","text":"假如像委員這樣的推論的話，就國安局的角度，我只代表國安局評估的話，我們會注意到的是整體中東的安全情勢，臺灣畢竟跟其他的美國盟友不太一樣，我們還必須審慎評估我們當面敵情的動態，才有辦法去做一些相關兵力的調整跟調度，當然後續還有能量的評估，畢竟中東地區還是比較有一些後勤補給設施要處理的。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:16:55.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:16:56.648000+08:00","text":"它距離遠，局勢也複雜。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-04-13T10:16:56.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:16:58.169000+08:00","text":"是，所以這部分可能是比較複雜的。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:16:59.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:17:15.450000+08:00","text":"OK，我請教國防部副部長，其實你從荷姆茲海峽就了解水雷或者智慧水雷這種不對稱戰力，看得出伊朗跟美軍的實力是沒辦法比較的，可是他用水雷把荷姆茲海峽封住了。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:17:15.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:17:24.437000+08:00","text":"所以我現在請教你，請你簡短回答，第一個，我國前面造了幾艘布雷艇，我們的布雷跟智慧水雷的進度？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:17:24.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:17:35.426000+08:00","text":"第二個，現在我們的掃雷艦，我在去年看到你們的報告要走向所謂的智慧排雷、無人載具的排雷，進度如何？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:17:35.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:17:47.739000+08:00","text":"第三個，一樣的問題，在安全後勤補給無虞下，臺灣去表達這樣的gesture說我們願意支援川普、願意支援美國，國防部的評估如何？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:17:47.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:17:48.800000+08:00","text":"這三個題目請你回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐副部長斯儉","start":"2026-04-13T10:17:49.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:18:10.341000+08:00","text":"先回答委員第三個題目，當然委員這個想法相當有創意，我們是沒有這麼想過，但是我想關鍵還是委員講的那兩個前提，就是後勤補給跟保障方面，您可以看到我們那個船並不大，要開到荷姆茲恐怕……","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:18:11.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:18:11.582000+08:00","text":"很難開過去啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"徐副部長斯儉","start":"2026-04-13T10:18:11.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:18:12.242000+08:00","text":"沒辦法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:18:12.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:18:14.224000+08:00","text":"可能要用船載的方式。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐副部長斯儉","start":"2026-04-13T10:18:15.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:18:18.169000+08:00","text":"這個恐怕要看條件具不具足。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐副部長斯儉","start":"2026-04-13T10:18:18.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:18:42.333000+08:00","text":"另外，剛才國安局局長也說了，我們也非常同意，其實我們臺海周邊戰備的負荷是很重的，共艦常常在襲擾，我們非常有限的掃雷戰力適不適合出去恐怕還要評估，不過委員的想法，我們帶回去評估。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:18:43.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:18:57.361000+08:00","text":"那個前提很重要，我只是說這個議題可以思考，但是第一題跟第二題才是真正的命題，我們自己水雷、智慧水雷的能力，我們自己的排雷、獵雷、掃雷的能力，國防部現在有沒有計畫？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:18:57.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:10.355000+08:00","text":"因為我看我們預算都放在主力艦、一級艦、二級艦、三級艦，對於這一種老舊的船艦、支援性的船艦……其實蠻嚴重的啦，國防部目前有什麼想法？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"徐副部長斯儉","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:10.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:11.436000+08:00","text":"我們請海軍參謀長回答一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:11.436000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:14.084000+08:00","text":"來，請說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"朱參謀長惠民","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:14.084000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:16.732000+08:00","text":"委員好，我是海軍參謀長。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"朱參謀長惠民","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:16.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:29.562000+08:00","text":"針對委員的題目，我們這邊回答的狀況，第一個，有關掃雷的建置我們目前持續在做，但是重點是在濱海作戰的區域以內，不管是掃雷或者偵雷……","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:29.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:32.704000+08:00","text":"你們無人載具掃雷的部分開始做了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"朱參謀長惠民","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:32.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:34.045000+08:00","text":"我們後續在規劃。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:34.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:36.367000+08:00","text":"還在規劃當中，沒有實質的戰力？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"朱參謀長惠民","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:36.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:40.911000+08:00","text":"至於掃雷載具有關掃雷艇的部分，我們是持續建案在執行的。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:42.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:47.773000+08:00","text":"OK，所以你認為我們現在掃雷、排雷的能力夠不夠？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"朱參謀長惠民","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:47.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:48.894000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們持續在做。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:49.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:51.034000+08:00","text":"就是遠遠不夠嘛！是。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:51.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:19:52.035000+08:00","text":"然後我們布雷的能力呢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"朱參謀長惠民","start":"2026-04-13T10:19:52.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:20:02.378000+08:00","text":"布雷的能力包含了整備的能力，還有我們剛剛說的後續有關持續建造布雷艇的部分，我們數量會持續的增加，目前在持續的建構中。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:20:03.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:20:06.681000+08:00","text":"有啦，前幾年在龍德那邊造了幾艘嘛！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:20:07.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:20:08.684000+08:00","text":"那智慧水雷的進度呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"朱參謀長惠民","start":"2026-04-13T10:20:10.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:20:10.867000+08:00","text":"這個持續在籌購中，在規劃中。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:20:11.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:20:12.430000+08:00","text":"你這樣等於沒有回答。是。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:20:13.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:20:17.056000+08:00","text":"今年會弄出來嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"朱參謀長惠民","start":"2026-04-13T10:20:17.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:20:18.478000+08:00","text":"目前在努力中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:20:19.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:20:26.725000+08:00","text":"因為我們之前看到某一個美商有提供一種型號嘛，那個有進行討論嗎？有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:20:28.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:20:28.166000+08:00","text":"在討論？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:20:29.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:20:30.807000+08:00","text":"有要做，還是還在討論中？","quality":1},{"speaker":"朱參謀長惠民","start":"2026-04-13T10:20:31.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:20:32.128000+08:00","text":"我們在討論中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-13T10:20:33.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:20:39.071000+08:00","text":"我覺得荷姆茲海峽是一個很好的借鏡，但時間未必站在我們這邊啦，你們持續加油。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"朱參謀長惠民","start":"2026-04-13T10:20:39.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-13T10:20:39.191000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-13T10:20:39.691000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-13T10:20:43.405286+08:00","text":"接下來請羅美玲委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}