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就是涉到自己的事情 怎能立案調查那媒體當時還提醒他 以前就發生過監察院秘書長被調查彈劾的情勢如果按照這個葉大華監委的邏輯 那監察委員如果濫權沒有任何人可以查嗎監察委員這麼大嗎 沒有任何法律或行政能夠究責嗎 秘書長事情是這樣的嗎"},{"start":63.552,"end":86.653,"text":"跟委員報告我們監察院本身對這個案子是真正有調查的我們是透過我們本院的紀律委員會進行調查所以我們這邊是有查查也有做出相關的決定所以葉大華的監委他講的話不是正確的他說涉及事件怎能調查呢他當時對媒體這麼講的"},{"start":88.474,"end":110.051,"text":"那沒關係秘書長我要特別說明一件事情去年當然你還沒有就任在審查監察院的追加預算的時候民眾黨黨團原本是要全書刪除的但是當時的那個代理秘書長也就是王貞華表示將針對公務車濫用的事情做積極的調查因此本黨就釋出善意就把那個案子撤了"},{"start":112.053,"end":126.481,"text":"當時這個代理秘書長也有明確表示說案件已經進入剛剛您談的這個紀律委員會那預期九月會有結果可是後來呢一直到延宕到今年二月才提出來而且最後的處分竟然是什麼 您知道嗎最後的處分是"},{"start":127.381,"end":140.592,"text":"最後處分是請這個林玉榮委員在院會那後來他是在院會以口頭來道歉他是口頭道歉處請注意完全沒有任何懲處啊請問秘書長您當時有參與這個公務車事件的調查嗎"},{"start":144.656,"end":165.408,"text":"這個是紀御委員會的組成是由委員來組成所以不是由幕僚來組成秘書長你認為這個處分妥當嗎這樣的結果你能接受嗎你會不會要求重新來過我們也沒這個職權要求重新來過但是我在這邊必須要很負責任的代表監察院向委員以及大院來報告相關的懲處我們也都是依據相關的法制"},{"start":171.412,"end":188.3,"text":"那這個紀律委員會有規定那我們做的一個決定是請林玉榮委員要口頭道歉那王滬章委員是處請注意那蘇麗瓊委員因為她是因為牙痛所以她去"},{"start":189.1,"end":202.871,"text":"緊急去看醫生所以我們就沒有履行懲處我的意思其實你們對別人的檢舉大概就是彈劾啦 糾正啦那對自己還有保留一個叫口頭道歉就可以啦我跟委員報告我們這個紀律委員會所規定的相關的這個權責就是說它的懲處"},{"start":208.015,"end":234.993,"text":"罪到了這個所謂的那個道歉再來就是彈劾了差別就是它差別很大所以留在口頭道歉啊對但是為什麼留在口頭道歉是有法律依據的為什麼呢因為我們一般來講對一般的公務人員的彈劾尤其是在公務車的濫用的情況之下都必須要有刑法追訴有刑事責任的時候才會進入到彈劾所以跟全國公務人員是一致我換另外一道題目謝謝"},{"start":236.594,"end":241.459,"text":"監察院在貶政府時期曾經空轉三年有數萬個案件都被擱置了但是很奇怪當時社會都沒有什麼明顯感受連陳總統事後都親自告訴我說沒有人指控他違憲那我要請問秘書長這樣的狀況是代表制度上是功能失靈呢還是本來就沒有被人民感受到說它存在的價值呢"},{"start":259.215,"end":278.242,"text":"事實上跟委員報告我們監察院的存在非常重要其實剛才我在報告的時候就已經提到了我們本院負擔彈劾的工作其實過去大院一直有一個質詢權可是就缺了我們這個調查權已經賦予在監察院調查之後我們再進入到彈劾然後才送工程會您的報告我有認真聽但是我剛剛在講當時的事實就這樣也沒有人提出違憲"},{"start":288.386,"end":308.137,"text":"社會也無感這是一個事實現象的部分秘書長有位民進黨政治人物說過過去監察院也曾經停止運作三年到頭來也是安然無恙你知道是誰講這句話嗎我對不起你不知道這就是前任監察院秘書長你的前任李俊逸在2015年擔任立委說過的話"},{"start":310.938,"end":339.426,"text":"那不久前辭職的陳菊院長也說希望自己是最後一任監察院長在憲改完成廢考監後光榮離開那2015年賴清德市長他拒絕走入議會被監察院彈劾的時候也說過台灣的監察院這幾十年來該辦的不辦反而成為政治的打手國人已經無法再支持這樣的機關了一定要廢掉監察院這個憲政怪獸我這都是引用的話那秘書長你我都知道過去民進黨多位政治人物"},{"start":340.166,"end":357.841,"text":"是主張廢除監察院並且認為監察權這個是可以回歸到立法院或其他的機制是是是這意思那說過要扮演末代監察院長的陳菊院長她辭職了但監察院還在嘛那請問秘書長您支持廢除這個監察院呢你會期許自己是末代的秘書長嗎"},{"start":359.45,"end":373.707,"text":"我沒有辦法以監察院秘書長的身份來回答我要不要做末代的秘書長但是我當然啦我過去身為一個當初是一個學者的時候呢我也有相關的主張"},{"start":374.428,"end":378.93,"text":"但是我沒辦法以秘書長的身份您過去也應該是一直 我們也曾經是戰友嘛大家都有一次的信念我的主張是廢除監察院但是監察權還是要回歸到立法院這是我當學者時候的意見"},{"start":391.374,"end":415.124,"text":"我再回來我們的這個責任的部分去年六月那個時候民眾黨先召開記者會我在記者會指出就六月之前的一些資料監察院過去三年的成績比過去三十年的工作成績還差每年地方巡查耗資一千八百萬元巡查的天數不到四十天監察員每位平均一年只處理十二個調查案到二零二四年的時候每位監務委"},{"start":416.004,"end":436.416,"text":"平均一年僅處理九件調查案全院全年僅有96個糾正案這個數字如果是你們要補充追加這樣是可以那我還要再講賴清德總統的愛將陳忠彥接受性招待的彈劾案在這個罪證明確之下竟然以2比11彈劾未過"},{"start":438.007,"end":447.732,"text":"所以這個相關爭議是慶祝難輸啊包括剛剛我提到這個濫用公務車沒有被處分那院長長期領病假雖然他不是願意生病的這個等等都是問題喔"},{"start":449.369,"end":479.112,"text":"那您還覺得這個監察院存在有非常大的價值嗎我覺得委員這邊先跟委員說明一個狀態就是說您有時候看到那個數字第一個我們那是有點片面其實我們的這邊有一個調查數字我可以在會後補充給委員我們的調查數字其實我們第五屆跟第六屆的比較來看我們本院的委員的職權心思並沒有跟第五屆有多相關的落差甚至有些"},{"start":479.452,"end":485.556,"text":"你願意給我書面一些資料補充我們想要了解監察委員有沒有努力在工作成效如何跟下來我要講的另外一件事警察院其實會被人家認為說案件選擇跟調查的強度沒有一致性一致的標準有時候會被批評只辦基層不辦大官而且好幾位請你看一下這好幾位都具有非常強烈的黨政背景那被形容是仇庸院"},{"start":507.051,"end":518.45,"text":"因為當一個機關在運作的時候爭議不斷當它不運作的時候社會又無感你看這兩件事加起來是不是代表國家其實不太需要這個機關呢"},{"start":521.28,"end":548.925,"text":"這是第一件事情就是說這個是個事實運作是有爭議但不運作大家又無感嘛過去有這個經驗那今年七月底第六屆的監委即將卸任現在面臨第一個朝野這個是對立的情勢是還是存在的第二個加上社會認為監察院好像沒有功能我剛剛舉這樣的例子那未來可能面臨監察院沒有監察委員的情況祕書長你有做好準備嗎如果監察院沒有監察委員你做好準備了嗎"},{"start":549.745,"end":575.43,"text":"其實我先回應一下那個委員覺得都只彈劾基層沒有高官這部分其實我們到3月底我們已經彈劾了132案總共217人到3月底為止因為任期到7月底那高階人員佔了八成法官13位檢察官11位是歷屆最高而且我們也有一個委託調查大概也委託調查了3809案那其中有"},{"start":579.591,"end":606.19,"text":"平反的案件有389就讓人民真正有感受的我們把它平反的有389所以監察院並不是委員說他都沒有職人這個是去聯合調查的資料他們做的非常多的內容我需要知道你們是不是確定你們是不是只辦只打蒼蠅不打老虎我們會把我們辦的官等分析給那至於這個監察院如果沒有監察員你準備好了嗎秘書長"},{"start":607.81,"end":630.538,"text":"我們從來不會去準備沒有監察委員的情況從來不會準備這樣我們做的目標一定是準備大院通過之後我們如何讓委員先任的委員來不過我還是建議秘書長您可以去請教一下前總統陳水扁總統當監察院沒有監察委員的時候那三年要怎麼樣來是如何運作的作為您的參考謝謝秘書長謝謝主席"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:12:05.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:12:05.349000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:12:05.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:12:05.831000+08:00","text":"有請黃秘書長。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T09:12:06.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:12:06.032000+08:00","text":"請黃秘書長。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:12:17.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:12:17.378000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:12:17.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:12:18.299000+08:00","text":"秘書長早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:12:19.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:12:29.386000+08:00","text":"雖然濫用公務車情事並非發生在你任內，但是你現在既然擔任了秘書長，所以我要請你概括承受。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:12:31.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:12:43.095000+08:00","text":"當時事件爆發的時候，有媒體追問監察院是否要立案調查，但是葉大華監察委員竟然說涉己事務怎麼立案調查？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:12:43.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:12:45.917000+08:00","text":"就是涉及到自己的事情，怎能立案調查？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:12:46.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:12:59.427000+08:00","text":"媒體當時還提醒他，以前就發生過監察院秘書長被調查彈劾的情事，如果按照葉大華監委的邏輯，監察委員如果濫權，沒有任何人可以查嗎？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:12:59.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:13:00.808000+08:00","text":"監察委員這麼大嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:13:00.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:13:02.729000+08:00","text":"沒有任何法律或行政能夠究責嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:13:02.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:13:02.909000+08:00","text":"秘書長，事情是這樣的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:13:06.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:13:22.746000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們監察院本身對這個案子是真正有調查的，是透過我們本院的紀律委員會進行調查，所以我們這邊是有查，也有做出相關的決定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:13:22.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:13:23.027000+08:00","text":"所以是有的。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:13:23.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:13:29.092000+08:00","text":"所以葉大華監委講的話不是正確的，他不是正確的，他說涉己事件怎能調查呢？","quality":0.719},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:13:29.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:13:29.633000+08:00","text":"他當時對媒體這麼講的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:13:31.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:13:53.031000+08:00","text":"沒關係，秘書長，我要特別說明一件事情，去年當然你還沒有就任，在審查監察院的追加預算時，民眾黨黨團原本是要全數刪除的，但是當時的代理秘書長也就是王增華表示將針對公務車濫用的事情做積極的調查，因此本黨釋出善意，把那個案子撤了。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:13:55.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:14:09.140000+08:00","text":"當時代理秘書長也有明確表示說案件已經進入剛剛您談的紀律委員會，預期9月會有結果，可是後來一直延宕到今年2月才提出來，而且最後的處分竟然是什麼，您知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:14:09.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:14:09.461000+08:00","text":"最後的處分是什麼？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:14:10.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:14:18.448000+08:00","text":"最後處分是請林郁容委員在院會……後來他是在院會以口頭來道歉。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:14:18.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:14:22.511000+08:00","text":"秘書長，他是口頭道歉，促請注意，完全沒有任何懲處啊！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:14:22.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:14:23.592000+08:00","text":"請問秘書長，您當時有參與這個公務車事件的調查嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:14:27.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:14:33.719000+08:00","text":"這個是紀律委員會的組成，是由委員來組成，不是由幕僚長這邊來組成。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:14:33.719000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T09:14:34.719000+08:00","text":"所以你自己沒有參與。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:14:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:14:36.001000+08:00","text":"秘書長，你認為這個處分妥當嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:14:36.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:14:37.422000+08:00","text":"這樣的結果，你能接受嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:14:37.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:14:39.263000+08:00","text":"你會不會要求重新來過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:14:39.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:15:15.023000+08:00","text":"我們也沒這個職權要求重新來過，但是我在這邊必須要很負責任地代表監察院向委員以及大院來報告，相關的懲處，我們也都是依據相關的法制，這個紀律委員會有規定，我們所做的決定是請林郁容委員口頭道歉，王榮璋委員是促請注意，蘇麗瓊委員是因為牙痛而緊急去看醫生，所以就沒有懲處……","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:15:15.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:15:22.869000+08:00","text":"秘書長，我的意思是，你們對別人的檢舉大概就是彈劾、糾正，但對自己卻保留口頭道歉就可以了？","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:15:24.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:15:36.779000+08:00","text":"依紀律委員會所規定的相關權責，所謂的懲處到道歉之後，再來就是彈劾，差別就是……","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:15:36.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:15:39.321000+08:00","text":"差別很大，所以保留口頭道歉啊！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:15:40.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:15:41.602000+08:00","text":"為什麼保留口頭道歉？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:15:41.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:15:43.423000+08:00","text":"這是有法律依據的，為什麼？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:15:44.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:15:57.393000+08:00","text":"一般來講，對一般公務人員的彈劾，尤其是濫用公務車，都必須在有刑法追溯、有刑事責任時才會進入到彈劾，所以跟全國公務人員是一致的。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:15:57.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:15:57.973000+08:00","text":"謝謝秘書長，我換另外一道題目請教。","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:15:59.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:16:01.316000+08:00","text":"監察院在扁政府時期曾經空轉三年，有數萬個案件被擱置了。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:16:01.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:16:03.018000+08:00","text":"但是很奇怪，當時社會對此都沒有什麼明顯感受，連陳總統事後都親自告訴我，沒有人指控他違憲。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:16:03.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:16:04.399000+08:00","text":"請問秘書長，這樣的狀況是代表制度的功能失靈，還是人民沒有感受到其存在的價值？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:16:22.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:16:26.937000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，監察院的存在非常重要！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:16:27.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:16:32.899000+08:00","text":"剛才我在報告的時候就已經提到，本院擔負彈劾工作！","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:16:34.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:16:38.721000+08:00","text":"過去大院一直有質詢權，至於所缺的調查權已經賦予監察院……","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:16:38.721000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T09:16:39.721000+08:00","text":"秘書長……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:16:38.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:16:40.382000+08:00","text":"在調查之後進入彈劾，然後才送公懲會……","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:16:40.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:16:40.782000+08:00","text":"您的報告我有認真聽……謝謝。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:16:40.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:16:54.068000+08:00","text":"但是我剛剛講當時的事實就是如此，沒有人提出違憲，社會也無感，所以這是事實與現象。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:16:55.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:17:04.253000+08:00","text":"有位民進黨政治人物說過，過去監察院曾經停止運作三年，到頭來也是安然無恙，你知道是誰講這句話嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:17:04.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:17:04.893000+08:00","text":"對不起，我不了解。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:17:05.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:17:05.954000+08:00","text":"你不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:17:07.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:17:11.137000+08:00","text":"就是前任監察院秘書長─你的前任李俊俋，在2015年擔任立委時說過的話。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:17:14.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:17:22.160000+08:00","text":"不久前辭職的陳菊院長也說，希望自己是最後一任的監察院長，在憲改完成廢考監後，光榮離開。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:17:22.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:17:37.685000+08:00","text":"2015年賴清德市長拒絕走入議會被監察院彈劾時也說，臺灣的監察院這幾十年來該辦的不辦，反而成為政治打手，國人已經無法再支持這樣的機關，一定要廢掉監察院這個憲政怪獸！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:17:37.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:17:39.145000+08:00","text":"我講的都是引用的話。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:17:39.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:17:48.411000+08:00","text":"秘書長，你我都知道，過去民進黨有多位政治人物主張廢除監察院，並認為監察權可以回歸立法院或有其他機制……","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:17:48.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:17:49.131000+08:00","text":"是這個意思。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:17:50.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:17:54.696000+08:00","text":"至於說過要扮演末代監察院長的陳菊院長辭職了，但監察院還在。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:17:55.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:17:59.140000+08:00","text":"請問秘書長，您支不支持廢除監察院？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:17:59.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:18:00.841000+08:00","text":"您會期許自己是末代秘書長嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:18:02.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:18:09.539000+08:00","text":"我沒有辦法以監察院秘書長的身分來回答我要不要做末代秘書長！","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:18:09.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:18:18.008000+08:00","text":"我當初是學者的時候，我也有相關主張，但是我沒辦法以秘書長的身分……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:18:18.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:18:20.509000+08:00","text":"您過去也應該是一直……我們也曾經是戰友，大家都有一致的信念。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:18:20.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:18:21.930000+08:00","text":"是的，我的主張是廢除監察院，而監察權則回歸立法院，這是我當學者時的意見。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:18:34.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:18:36.815000+08:00","text":"再回來討論責任的部分。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:18:37.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:18:47.900000+08:00","text":"去年6月民眾黨曾經召開記者會，我在記者會中也就去年6月之前的一些資料指出，監察院過去三年的工作成績比過去三十年還差！","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:18:48.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:18:56.443000+08:00","text":"每年的地方巡察耗資1,800萬元，巡察天數不到40天，每位監察委員平均一年只處理12個調查案。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:18:57.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:19:04.868000+08:00","text":"2024年時，每位監委平均一年僅處理9件調查案，全院全年僅有96個糾正案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:19:05.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:19:07.909000+08:00","text":"就這個數值來說，你們還可以補充追加。","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:19:08.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:19:23.208000+08:00","text":"我還要再講一個，賴清德總統的愛將陳宗彥接受性招待彈劾案，在罪證明確下，竟然以2比11彈劾未過，所以監察院的相關爭議罄竹難書！","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:19:23.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:19:30.712000+08:00","text":"包括剛剛提到的，濫用公務車沒有被處分，院長長期請病假，雖然他不是自己願意生病的，但這些都是問題。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:19:32.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:19:36.292000+08:00","text":"如此，您還覺得監察院的存在有非常大的價值嗎？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:19:36.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:19:41.476000+08:00","text":"我在這邊先跟委員說明一個狀態。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:19:41.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:19:51.123000+08:00","text":"也就是說有時候看到數字：第一個，那是有點片面的，而且我這邊也有一個調查數字，會後可以補充給委員。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:19:51.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:20:02.092000+08:00","text":"依據我們對第5屆及第6屆的調查數字比較來看，本院委員在職權行使上跟第5屆比並沒有落差，甚至有些還更優秀……","quality":0.565},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:20:02.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:20:02.752000+08:00","text":"你願意給我書面資料補充？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:20:02.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T09:20:03.752000+08:00","text":"對，我可以把書面資料給委員。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:20:02.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:20:03.613000+08:00","text":"我想了解到底監察委員有沒有在努力工作？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:20:03.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:20:04.113000+08:00","text":"成效如何？當然。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:20:04.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:20:04.914000+08:00","text":"接下來我要講另外一件事。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:20:05.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:20:06.775000+08:00","text":"監察院之所以被認為案件選擇與調查強度的標準不一致，甚至有時候被批評只辦基層不辦大官。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:20:06.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:20:08.536000+08:00","text":"請你看一下，這好幾位委員都具有非常強烈的黨政背景，以致被形容為酬庸院。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:20:30.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:20:41.430000+08:00","text":"當一個機關在運作的時候爭議不斷；可是不運作的時候社會又無感，所以這兩件事加起來，是不是代表國家其實不太需要這個機關？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:20:44.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:20:47.081000+08:00","text":"這是第一件事，而且這是事實！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:20:47.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:20:51.201000+08:00","text":"換句話說，運作時有爭議，但不運作時大家又無感，這點過去已經有經驗。","quality":0.655},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:20:51.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:21:10.025000+08:00","text":"在今年7月底，第6屆監委即將卸任，現在所面臨的問題是：第一個，朝野對立的情勢還是存在的；第二個，社會認為監察院好像沒有功能，對此我剛剛有舉例說明，因此，未來可能面臨監察院沒有監察委員的情況，秘書長，你有做好準備嗎？","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:21:10.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:21:11.925000+08:00","text":"如果監察院沒有監察委員，你做好準備了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:21:13.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:21:19.126000+08:00","text":"我先回應委員提到只彈劾基層、沒有高官這部分。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:21:19.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:21:24.907000+08:00","text":"其實到3月底為止，我們已經彈劾了132案，總共217人……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:21:24.907000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T09:21:26.788000+08:00","text":"今年3月底？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:21:26.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:21:28.988000+08:00","text":"對，到3月底為止，因為任期到7月底。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:21:29.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:21:34.989000+08:00","text":"其中，高階人員占了八成，法官13位、檢察官11位，是歷屆最高。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:21:35.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:21:48.275000+08:00","text":"其次，我們也有委託調查，大概多調查了3,809案，其中，平反的案件有389件，這是讓人民真正有感受，幫其平反的案子有389件。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:21:49.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:21:53.799000+08:00","text":"所以監察院並不像委員所說沒有職能……","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:21:54.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:21:56.381000+08:00","text":"這是我去年所調查的資料。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:21:56.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:21:58.082000+08:00","text":"他們做了非常多的內容……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:21:58.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:22:03.566000+08:00","text":"我需要知道你們是不是只打蒼蠅、不打老虎……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:22:03.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:22:06.508000+08:00","text":"我會把官等分析的資料給委員。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:22:07.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:22:09.170000+08:00","text":"將來監察院如果沒有監察委員的話，你準備好了嗎？","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:22:09.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:22:09.190000+08:00","text":"秘書長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:22:10.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:22:13.911000+08:00","text":"我們從來不會去準備沒有監察委員的情況！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:22:13.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:22:14.812000+08:00","text":"從來不會準備這樣的情況！","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:22:14.812000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T09:22:15.812000+08:00","text":"你認為這種可能性不高？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:22:14.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:22:21.534000+08:00","text":"我們所有的幕僚一定在大院通過之後，準備如何讓新任的委員……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:22:22.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:22:32.638000+08:00","text":"我還是建議秘書長，您可以去請教一下前總統陳水扁，有關監察院沒有監察委員的那三年是如何運作的並作為您的參考。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"黃秘書長適卓","start":"2026-04-15T09:22:32.638000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T09:22:33.638000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員指教。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-15T09:22:33.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T09:22:33.518000+08:00","text":"謝謝秘書長，謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T09:22:34.018000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T09:22:37.446571+08:00","text":"謝謝陳委員，秘書長先請回座。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T09:22:37.746571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T09:22:40.889429+08:00","text":"接下來請吳宗憲委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}