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麻煩秘書長好 請秘書長委員好"},{"start":15.888,"end":33.583,"text":"好 民主黨好我想我今天對於監察院主要是討論一個議題就是你們之前也有做過一些報告就有關移工部分的一個問題我想監察院自己在112年的7月曾經對於國家移工政策有啟動一個調查報告那當時他認為的一個問題就是"},{"start":38.081,"end":59.791,"text":"失聯移工它是一個結構性的問題 是監察院自己的報告他說因為背後牽涉到高額的仲介費 合法薪資所得跟勞動狀況不佳 勞動條件不佳還有黑工市場拉力 還有申訴跟管理機制失靈等等的因素所以監察院的新聞稿裡面有提到111年新增的失聯移工有4.1萬"},{"start":61.232,"end":81.949,"text":"那115年2月呢現在失聯的移工有93305人這是你們的報告失聯的比例達到10.2%也就是說有10個移工裡面就有一個目前失聯逃逸中我在這邊先跟秘書長報告10個移工就有一個失聯逃逸中"},{"start":83.85,"end":95.195,"text":"過往這個我們都還沒有找到一個解決的方式現在新的政策又要說對那個印度移工開放當然啦在我的立場我會覺得這個國家亂的套大家都在說謊總統選舉前說印度移工要進來叫做"},{"start":99.276,"end":125.765,"text":"認知作戰然後選完之後馬上就政策就立刻就出來有這件事情所以當一個國家高層都在說謊的時候那是不是要需要監察院來去監督行政機關不能夠亂搞嘛那連你們的報告在112年到113年之間你們做了非常多份調查報告我們都看過了裡面講得很清楚而且支聯逃逸的移工持續的在增加你們自己也說這個"},{"start":127.425,"end":152.945,"text":"甚至103年1月你們的報告是說目前我國的狀況變成邊抓邊跑 越抓越多移民署疲於奔命 人力不足這個都是你們的報告出來的那在這個基礎之下我想請教一下秘書長你們後續還有作出任何對於行政機關的建議或者是任何說明嗎"},{"start":165.149,"end":179.532,"text":"各位委員報告一下,有關失眠移工的部分我們都會請移民署來進行調查然後要求勞動部跟移民署一起來配合研究跟調查然後盡量讓移工可以減少他逃逸的狀況"},{"start":180.492,"end":204.268,"text":"阿你這是空話嘛我叫他調查有沒有減少那所以呢你們做了什麼我們要求養鳳部跟移民署他們要盡責阿要盡責負責他們的責任阿所以這就是你們這幾年調查那麼多份調查報告之後還有有些部分的法律的依據還有法律的規定都要求他們要進行改進阿你們有發什麼文開什麼會議或有任何"},{"start":205.369,"end":229.496,"text":"我們當然會要求勞動部跟移民署追究誰的責任 有沒有當然追究勞動部跟移民署要糾正他們喔好 那你們有正式的糾正出去了是不是當然有 當然有相關的公文那第一個這個資料給我們一份第二個他們改善的結論是什麼好的 我看到的是越抓越多越抓越多 那我們會再進行糾正那個要求移民署努力所以你們後續的追蹤呢後續還在追蹤中 然後我們會進行然後再來齁"},{"start":232.037,"end":242.893,"text":"你們必須把後續的追蹤資料再給我們一份啊我跟你講現在大家就是反正我開個會我有糾正它我有指示完就沒我的事了但是我看到的東西會越來越多那為什麼今天我們要提這個因為"},{"start":244.659,"end":271.452,"text":"行政院的新的政策要再大量開放印度移工那你前面的問題還沒有解決完啊你到115年2月給我的資料是10個人就跑掉一個失聯然後你要再開放更多進來那到現在沒有任何的改善跟委員補充報告一下就是說我們的糾正案所有的糾正案已經糾正之後我們都會繼續追蹤不會馬上就算是結案的內容然後會看到他有沒有依照我們的糾正結果"},{"start":272.892,"end":297.601,"text":"那你112年的報告裡面你們有提到一個語言溝通障礙是移工失聯的重要主因所以你們的報告但是我看一下日本韓國跟新加坡他們都有基本的溝通的能力他們都有做一些語言的要求基本能力的要求但是目前我國沒有因為這是你們的報告那請問一下這個部分你們後來是要求行政機關要怎麼做"},{"start":298.121,"end":314.615,"text":"我們國家人權委員會也有針對這種類似像同意的問題做出了許多的研究我是說你們監察院會把這個研究的內容要求我們目前有做任何要求了嗎目前有進行了嗎"},{"start":315.676,"end":331.933,"text":"在這個調查案裡面就有要求有關不是你們有做任何正式的要求不是我現在已經再講一次你們的調查報告已經講這個是最主要的原因之一嘛那你們後續對於你們研究報告的最主要原因之一你們做了什麼動作我來解釋"},{"start":333.434,"end":361.588,"text":"這部分跟委員報告一下我們有要求勞動部的1955專線設立四國語言所以勞動部他們也有依照我們的規定依照我們的糾正內容去做設立四國語言的翻譯不是不是 你們的研究並不是說1955有沒有辦法受理他們的申訴你們今天你們的報告是說日本韓國新加坡在於移工帶來的時候他們就有做基本的語言要求的標準嘛"},{"start":362.048,"end":378.024,"text":"你們的報告是這樣啊你說因為很多時候因為語言不通所以導致一些彼此的糾紛發生嘛那就這個對於外籍移工他們要有基本的語言要求這一塊你們做了什麼你們對於行政機關的要求是什麼"},{"start":379.105,"end":386.032,"text":"不好意思跟委員報告一下在這部分我們經過我們的報告裡面我們要求勞動部在這個外勞要進來之前呢要求他們能夠做基本的語言的測試他們能夠講基本的中文然後這是在他們在當地的國內進來台灣之前我們有要求勞動部做這樣的訓練那你們是用什麼樣的方式要求是會議上面的口頭"},{"start":403.087,"end":421.686,"text":"還是怎麼樣我們完全沒有看到這些資料今天你們講的說真的講真講假我也不知道就我講的現在政府我已經沒辦法信任因為一下講認知認知作戰印度移工進來是認知作戰改天又說就有這件事情所以這個國家已經誰講真話誰講假我不知道"},{"start":424.97,"end":449.69,"text":"112年份的這份報告你們有提到幾個重點第一個黑工市場的拉力巨大第二個高額仲介費讓移工變成是負債的勞工第三個申訴跟轉換機制的僵化讓移工跑的就跑掉了第四個查緝量能基層化的嚴重不足這幾個問題都是你們做出來的研究報告但是目前看起來也沒有一個明顯的改善"},{"start":451.277,"end":465.82,"text":"我還是希望啦一件事情這個你們要處理好然後再來喔還有我現在在跟跟你們說明一個審計部也有一份報告出來他說現在這些合法移工的帳戶也被柵團拿來利用那現在有很多"},{"start":466.901,"end":491.579,"text":"以前我在當檢察官的時候他們說這個叫坊間稱呼這個叫外勞卡或外勞帳戶因為勞工合法進來之後出境了就你並沒有把他契約的時間跟他們電信公司等等他們的電信合約做勾結所以他們人離開台灣了他們卡片就拿出去賣給詐團那現在也有一樣的狀況審計部他的審核報告有寫得很清楚"},{"start":495.942,"end":509.294,"text":"每年從111年到113年每年都是翻倍的我們的外籍移工涉犯詐欺案件都是翻倍喔從500多到將近1000人再從1000人跳到將近2000人會有這個問題那我們台灣"},{"start":511.676,"end":535.597,"text":"因為詐欺全國人民受害很慘重但是我們對於這些移工的相關帳戶跟電信的電話卡等等的管理又超級的隨便這部分我也蠻希望說監察院這邊要進行了解因為自願性的人頭帳戶這幾年越來越多為什麼我們國家的詐騙案件這麼的瘋狂的數量往上飆"},{"start":536.678,"end":559.73,"text":"因為我們這個最基本該做的行政管理都沒有做所以我今天看移工政策不是說失聯有沒有抓到而是合法的移工要管理 失聯的移工更要管理那這些移工的帳戶 門號核發 資料的借接這些跟詐欺有關的金流等等的管理我想監察院也必須要去了解一下這個狀況那我再跟監察院說明一個點"},{"start":561.468,"end":580.654,"text":"日本韓國新加坡他們對於這些移工的管理他們都是中央階級的在統一指揮但是我們現在台灣的做法是由內政部底下的移民署移民署底下的專勤隊我以前跟很多專勤隊合作辦過案件他們的人力嚴重不足這也是"},{"start":581.734,"end":601.769,"text":"貴院的歷次的報告都有提到但是我們現在看到的還是沒有就這一塊去改善所以導致目前的移工的管理失聯的查緝違法拘留其實專情隊量能是不足那你們做出這個報告之後請問一下你們就這個人力的部分你們有做什麼樣的處理嗎"},{"start":602.509,"end":614.116,"text":"委員今天你提的意見非常多議題也非常多是不是讓我們針對你這些議題我們有做糾正的部分先跟你報告因為沒有時間我不要太當我後面再來我要跟你們提一下你們有監察業務處你們有綜合業務處你們有秘書處我知道我今天問了很多問題你們一定會說監察委員獨立方案我們必須尊重他"},{"start":626.325,"end":632.785,"text":"歷次監察員都是這樣在回覆我但是我要跟你們說明一個點因為你們還是有行政的幕僚行政的單位"},{"start":634.4,"end":661.747,"text":"今天監察委員就像是裁判誰不對我要吹哨子但是他要吹哨錢你們還是要遞哨子給他啊你們還是要給他一些該他該知道的東西嘛新加坡因為印度勞工當年開放太快就是他們現在受到苦果他們現在一直在補這個洞我沒有說台灣跟新加坡一樣但是這是一個洞我們要拿來當作參考因為風險的邏輯會是一樣這個政策如果管理有問題會"},{"start":663.367,"end":686.253,"text":"會 將來會很難處理 所以最後請你齁 那個第一個 我請 那個監察院會不會依 112年通案研究的基礎對印度移工 或者是失聯移工惡化 再啟動專案調查 會不會有沒有辦法我沒辦法在這邊跟委員報告 因為我們這監察委員獨立 至少我一樣嘛 但是我可以跟你報告"},{"start":687.113,"end":696.797,"text":"那是不是至少提出建議我知道你一定會這樣回我我把立法院的質詢帶回去好 謝謝那第二個請秘書處 監察業務處 綜合業務處把這些相關數據包括我們今天的質詢 案情這些資料"},{"start":705.14,"end":713.384,"text":"能夠以行政資源這種案件管理這個概念你就交給監察委員讓他們是不是決定去立案好不好這就沒有問題嘛第三個希望在兩週內回覆目前有沒有這些我剛剛提到這些問題這些簽報列管啊議程啊所知陳情等等的這些動作好不好"},{"start":722.708,"end":738.657,"text":"因為我跟你講對好人更好對壞人更壞這國家施政的一個很重要的方向啦我們必須要保護人民我們會把責任擔起來我今天要求的不是要監察院表態這個異度移工要不要來的我不是要求這個我只是說麻煩啟動"},{"start":740.778,"end":764.924,"text":"監督因為目前你們給我的報告十個人就有一個失聯中這個越來越嚴重那我當過檢察官我最在意的是國內的治安問題移工在國內目前確實有造成一些治安上面疑慮以及譬如說有一些人家說三老鼠他們有一些團體現在都變成移工在組成這個都已經現在實務上面的事實麻煩這個要由你們督促一下行政機關趕快處理這一塊"},{"start":766.765,"end":767.429,"text":"把委員隊的建議帶回去謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝委員指教"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}