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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":447.284,"end":449.497,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":711.34,"end":712.582,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":802.483,"end":803.828,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1550.776,"end":1551.042,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1603.773,"end":1604.382,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1802.709,"end":1819.994,"text":"現在報告出席人數報告全體會出席委員11人已租法定人數現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期經濟委員會第18次全體委員會議事錄時間114年7月21日星期一9時至13時39分地點紅樓101會議室"},{"start":1825.576,"end":1848.623,"text":"出席委員 邱毅英等14人 列席委員 林俊憲等3人列席人員 經濟部部長郭志輝 農業部部長陳俊濟內政部政務次長董建宏 交通部政務次長陳彥博等主席謝昭及文一鳳 包志向 以宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定二 邀請經濟部部長 農業部部長 內政部首長及交通部首長就丹娜斯颱風及0708豪雨災損及回復情形進行報告並被質詢"},{"start":1851.804,"end":1876.518,"text":"经济部部长郭志辉及农业部部长陈俊济报告后委员纠英等16人提出质询经由农业部部长陈俊济等及其答复决定1.登记发言委员除不在场者外区域均已发言完毕讯答结束2.委员吕逸林、陈冠廷及徐新颖所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报3.书面质询和未及答复部分请相关单位于一周内书面答复并复制本会上会宣读完毕"},{"start":1879.5,"end":1893.232,"text":"好現在繼續進行報告事項請宣讀邀請國家發展委員會主任委員就美國對等關稅抵定後我國經濟未來之景氣情況及產業全球佈局新規劃進行報告並被質詢宣讀完畢請國家發展委員會劉靜清主委進行報告"},{"start":1912.455,"end":1935.935,"text":"謝謝主席 各位先進 大家早今天承蒙委員會邀請本席就美國對等關稅抵定後我國經濟未來之景氣情況及全球佈局新規劃進行報告本會僅就業管部分提出說明 敬請各位委員不吝指教"},{"start":1937.577,"end":1952.695,"text":"首先我大概簡單的介紹一下我們大概關稅的進程那川普在4月份的時候呢提出了32%之後經過了一番努力目前台灣是降到20%這個部分呢"},{"start":1956.099,"end":1970.597,"text":"是一次暫時性的關稅因為我們還在積極的爭取更有利更合理的稅率那美國政府也表達了意願願意跟台灣繼續進行談判的意願所以整個過程還在進行中那"},{"start":1971.758,"end":2000.34,"text":"另外這個部分目前初步的部分涵蓋了我們大約在25%的出口項目那大部分主要的出口項目是另有兩個因素在規範一個是豁免條款裡面的項目包括以科技類為主那另外是列入了232那部分豁免條款項目也列到了232的規定那232條款是以國家安全為主"},{"start":2002.121,"end":2020.274,"text":"為理由那開始進行的一個關稅的調整那至今年的3月已經對了鋼鐵鋁汽車零組件同等加徵關稅那這個部分加徵下來以後呢因為多數國家都得到一致性的稅率所以呢站在同一個"},{"start":2022.45,"end":2029.967,"text":"競爭點目前並沒有特別明顯的經濟的影響還沒有很還沒有展現出來那另外就是"},{"start":2031.758,"end":2058.904,"text":"川普總統在今天早上也宣布了對半導體加徵100%進口稅那因為台灣最主要的出口者是台積電台積電因為有美國社廠的關係得以豁免那我們有些廠商像中美晶在德州透過併購取得工廠也沒有受到影響那我們也有廠商現在是跟英特爾正在合作也可以透過一些美國廠商合作廠商出口"},{"start":2059.505,"end":2067.142,"text":"那部分會受影響部分不受影響但受影響者呢多半我們訪談下來多半來講因為他的主要競爭者"},{"start":2068.646,"end":2094.681,"text":"都是一樣被課徵百分之百的關稅所以台灣目前在全球領先的地位上我想領先者跟競爭者如果是站在同一個起保險上的話領先者還會繼續領先是我們目前初步的看法但是我們也會繼續觀察而且我們會提出短期跟長期的協助稍後我會做進行簡易的說明"},{"start":2095.661,"end":2114.007,"text":"我們先就今天上半年的整個經濟狀況做一個說明我們上半年的經濟成長率達到6.74是表現非常優異主要是受惠於AI還有高速運算等科技的發展因素"},{"start":2114.941,"end":2142.839,"text":"受惠於這部分所以帶動了整個的拉貨潮讓我們上半年的出口到去年從同期增加了將近26%那加上這個我們因為產業比較繁榮所以整個建廠擴充產能等等的因素帶動上半年的資本形成大幅擴增了10.4%那展彎下半年"},{"start":2144.451,"end":2158.587,"text":"因為有上半年拉貨潮加上一些不確定性的因素我們認為下半年還是要謹慎至於觀察它的進度然後這個事實的調整所以我們"},{"start":2159.568,"end":2173.475,"text":"是比較謹慎看下半年那下半年那但是全年的部分呢我們認為還是可以達到3.1%以上的經濟成長這也是吻合我們原來最早國家發展計畫裡面3%的標準那有兩個比較大的"},{"start":2178.892,"end":2205.369,"text":"動能在下半年會產生 因為傳統手機出貨潮從9月新級出來以後就是傳統的拉貨潮 第二個部分是AI Server是我們現在出口的主力 這個部分有新的機型 像GP300預計的出貨是在下半年所以這兩個會有一個比較大的拉動那讓我們在這個下半年還是可以看到一些好的機會那"},{"start":2207.233,"end":2223.742,"text":"那這個第二個部分是我們談到就是短期如何協助這個我國關稅出口供應鏈支持方案我們希望透過短期的協助然後讓整個經濟也可以持續穩定在3%以上所以我們也規劃了這個"},{"start":2227.56,"end":2255.969,"text":"這個4月份我們就針對整個工業農業提出了包括支持農業工業支持產業的部分加上安定就業等等定了九大面向20項措施總經費930億這個部分是希望呢協助企業在關稅面臨關稅議題的時候能夠這個因應應急的部分來短期協助他們來降低成本那解決資金上的困難"},{"start":2257.249,"end":2283.033,"text":"那這個是一個短期方案那接著我們會有一個中長期就是進入擴大內需的部分那我們支持產業希望讓給工業農業金融支持之外我們也輔導他們在技術升級設備太舊換新高質化的發展跟差異化產品的研發等等我們都給予比較多的資助另外是安定就業我們也提撥了"},{"start":2283.713,"end":2298.388,"text":"相當的金額來讓大家有一個安定的生活那另外為了中長期的發展我們國家必須要有三件事產生第一個叫做新產業第二個是新動能第三個是新布局我們利用三個大的主軸我們要調整我們的經濟結構"},{"start":2300.97,"end":2318.601,"text":"讓我們的未來的經濟風險降得比較低那我們希望透過新的產業佈局帶動更多的高新就業機會讓我們的國家繼續發展所以在新的產業上面我們可以看到這幾年的動能全球的動能跟未來"},{"start":2319.962,"end":2328.746,"text":"的發展都是以AI為核心為此我們國發會規劃了AI十大建設為核心然後搭配新來的產業積極的往新產業去發展"},{"start":2332.386,"end":2349.692,"text":"透過新產業發展讓更多的高薪就業機會產生也協助國內讓我們國內的經濟發展可以找到永續的動能這個動能也會帶動更多的高薪就業機會讓青年人有更好的美好未來"},{"start":2351.032,"end":2371,"text":"這個部分我們有三個比較大的重點希望透過三大重點讓台灣落實成為智慧科技島而且是成為全球AI影響力的中心第一個是智慧應用的部分我們智慧應用部分有三大主軸第一大主軸就是要協助企業透過AI翻轉未來"},{"start":2372.02,"end":2395.378,"text":"那我們這個部分呢就希望百工百業導入智慧應用因為AI是台灣的核心能力那產品的AI化產業作業流程的AI化供應鏈的AI化銷售的AI化進行精準行銷都可以有效協助企業在佈局跟跟銷售上進行足夠的翻轉第二個部分是我們要拉動新的產業我們的軟體產業有待提升"},{"start":2398.38,"end":2414.875,"text":"在美国的话呢,暖力产业大概占10%以上的GDP比重,我们现在在一点多,所以台湾还有一个很大的进步空间,所以我们希望透过与大厂合作,以大带小的方式推动新的暖力产业发展。"},{"start":2416.016,"end":2435.955,"text":"另外我們希望在AI的世界給人民一個AI的未來所以我們也會推動全民智慧生活圈讓大家生活在一個智慧的健康醫療環境智慧的交通環境智慧的零售環境智慧的家庭環境等等讓大家可以有一個更好的生活進入一個AI的世界"},{"start":2436.696,"end":2456.131,"text":"那另外我們為此呢也要保障國家未來的復國成山所以我們也會建立三個新的關鍵技術發展第一個關鍵技術發展是矽光子技術矽光子是在整個AI世界裡面寬頻領域裡面最重要的一點它除了有晶片封裝為核心那也會帶動"},{"start":2458.432,"end":2481.227,"text":"這個整個光通訊的部分的發展所以它有機會形成一個新的光產業所以我們積極推動這個部分那目前在台灣在矽光子領域已經領先全球了矽光子將會在2027年進入一個不明的時代所以我們可預期未來台灣在這個領域會有另外一片天"},{"start":2482.088,"end":2491.536,"text":"那另外在量子電腦我們也開始積極投入我們希望在未來的量子世界裡面我們不落於人那台灣目前在量子密碼上面也有相當"},{"start":2493.812,"end":2516.542,"text":"傲人的成績所以我們希望將來在通訊運算應用都能夠積極的發展那另外一個是我們也希望在未來的世界少子化的世界跟AI的世界裡面機器人無人載具是非常重要的所以我們也會積極的發展這個機器人供應鏈的關鍵技術成為全球的供應鏈核心那這個部分我們也在"},{"start":2518.264,"end":2539.84,"text":"台南我們也設了機器人園區有兩個還有研發基地另外我們其實無人載具的部分嘉義也設立了無人機專區等等我想我們在這些地方的推動會讓我們進入一個更進化的世界為此我們也奠定了數位計盤數位計盤裡面最重要的一項就是要讓台灣處處有AI就業機會"},{"start":2543.262,"end":2562.327,"text":"處處有高新就業機會所以我們把我們的六大區域均衡發展帶進了這個AI的規劃裡面以台中來講我們會規劃智慧精密型核心利用既有的精密機械為核心帶動AI的發展讓我們進入AI的產品世界讓整個產品的高質化產生"},{"start":2563.939,"end":2578.499,"text":"那我們也帶動了AI的農業我們希望透過在農業大縣也有好的結果在桃竹苗跟大南方大南方是嘉義、台南、高雄到屏東加上我們的桃竹苗這幾個地方都是我們南北雙矽谷"},{"start":2579.62,"end":2604.79,"text":"也是會帶動更多的機會那在北部地區我們首都圈核心的部分以基隆來講我們發展之外海洋專區改造基隆港這些都會帶動更多的機會讓整個AI鋪陳到我們的全島的各個角落讓大家都有機會那第二個部分我們是強化我們的算力第三個部分我們培養人才"},{"start":2605.45,"end":2625.319,"text":"我們預計要培養百萬人才我們最近有一個新的計劃短期內的40萬人才出發部也提出來了那另外在法令的部分我們會進行鬆綁希望當這個產業來帶動所有的發展那另外在新動能的部分我們在打造六大區域產業發展的時候我們加了十大生活圈"},{"start":2626.179,"end":2641.75,"text":"不但是產業的發展要帶動生活的發展所以整個生活相關的從教育到生活到百貨零售一直到我們的居住、社宅然後包括到交通到文化建設"},{"start":2643.131,"end":2653.076,"text":"燈花高壓 限定的廢棄物處理 到水電我們全部都規劃完成會整個一體性的帶動這個新的動能我們希望透過擴大內需來讓未來更好另外我們會強化觀光我們在觀光部分也會擴大預算"},{"start":2658.838,"end":2675.895,"text":"然後讓整個台灣在觀光產業的內需也會快速的拉動同時我們也希望透過提供長照3.0以及婚姻宅青年宅的等等的加入活絡民間讓大家生活變得比較更安定"},{"start":2676.576,"end":2705.675,"text":"那另外在新的布局部分我們積極的推動立足台灣布局全球很明顯全球化是一個大的未來那怎麼樣能夠透過全球布局分散風險也是非常重要的誠如我之前報告過在全球進口市場就是全球的國家開始去買東西的話美國只佔20%另外80%的市場也值得我們去攻略所以我們會積極的也往這個地方協助大家發展"},{"start":2706.616,"end":2721.292,"text":"那我們希望整個企業都能做到跟流台灣然後全球佈局那我們在相對的融資跟支持我們都會去強化那也會透過境外觀念的政策協助台商在"},{"start":2722.614,"end":2737.009,"text":"他要去發展的地方取得比較好的關稅跟優惠讓整個發展能夠更加的平順讓整個布局可以發展的比較好那很明顯我們台灣現在正在做二次的供應鏈布局轉型"},{"start":2737.89,"end":2752.37,"text":"那第一次的布局轉型我們是往這個中國走那中國走的部分目前一直在減少一直在減少一直在移出那目前看起來我們逐步移出去的部分我們的整個產業的出口"},{"start":2753.852,"end":2767.007,"text":"美國應該在今年會超越中國變成最大的地方那其實是東南亞所以很明顯台灣的佈局已經逐步慢慢在大幅的改變那我們希望幫助大家做好他的新佈局"},{"start":2769.222,"end":2783.476,"text":"以上就是我們對於美國關稅對全球經貿成長與產業鏈佈局的整個看法那我們認為只要落實到我們現在的短期政策跟中長期政策然後大家"},{"start":2784.497,"end":2808.088,"text":"一起來努力的話我想我們在全球的布局裡面應該還是會保有相當的競爭力跟韌性也會讓我們經濟持續的成長讓人民在更好的生活中享受他該有的AI生活跟幸福的生活以上為我的報告 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在先確定議事錄請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤"},{"start":2810.947,"end":2828.832,"text":"好 沒有 那議事錄確定 現在進行詢答委員質詢前原例作以下宣告 每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘 必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘 上午10點30分截止發言登記首先先請楊瓊英委員做詢答謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請主委"},{"start":2840.811,"end":2841.591,"text":"首先要請教美國川普總統他今天早上宣布將對所有進入美國的芯片和半導體課徵100%的關稅稅率"},{"start":2865.342,"end":2878.43,"text":"但不適用於承諾在美國生產的公司所以要請教台灣的半導體跟相關的產業到底有沒有在川普口中的課100%的關稅 請教"},{"start":2882.265,"end":2907.516,"text":"有部分企業是在這個名單裡面但是如果他進行承諾然後確實過去投資他就可以獲免那我們當然要看企業的佈局企業的佈局但是我們主要的出口最主要的出口是台積電那台積電已經獲免了那提供晶圓的中美晶中美晶併購了德州廠他有德州廠生產"},{"start":2908.616,"end":2930.256,"text":"像聯電我們第二大的聯電其實跟英特爾合作也許他們也可以透過跟英特爾的合作來解決這一部分因為我銷煤的部分大概只有佔1.12%的出口值因為大部分都是銷到組裝廠去做組裝所以換句話說照剛剛主委你的說明也就是台積電是豁免的對"},{"start":2933.22,"end":2958.619,"text":"他已經承諾在那邊投資已經在 已經投資了好 那麼 對所以本席要請教因為我們半導體跟伺服器的IC產品對於我們出口美國的貿易比是佔的非常的大 很高影響也非常的大所以我們政府在評估的時候我們要怎麼樣去應對去協助整個產業的一個說明請做說明"},{"start":2960.28,"end":2975.12,"text":"這個部分其實在4月份的時候我們就有多次的會議跟業者進行座談如果以半導體為例的話也當時他們大廠是認為說他們可以調節全球的佈局來因應"},{"start":2976.121,"end":2994.172,"text":"那第二個是有些廠商是只有在台灣的他是認為台灣的半導體的競爭力是相當強的如果所有的對手都是一樣的稅率那大家是起跑線一樣舉個例子如果大家都是100%那我對手是100%中國100%我們也是100%的話他們就認為"},{"start":2997.535,"end":3020.736,"text":"我們的競爭力是夠強的那如果照主委這麼說要跟別人的起跑線是一樣的但是這似乎是不太可能完美的都一樣所以我們政府還是要有所應對的方案讓我們的產業它能夠有所依歸跟它的軌道到底要怎麼走所以本席要來請教"},{"start":3022.898,"end":3029.244,"text":"這個美國總統川普在他5日的時候接受CNBC的電訪當中他聲稱台積電會花3000億美元在亞利桑那多來投資設廠但是依照媒體的報導台積電"},{"start":3038.993,"end":3044.48,"text":"已經回應說目前的投資計畫就是1650億美元這個1650億美元就是魏董事長在今年的3月10號的時候在白宮原本的650億再加碼1000億所以目前有協議的是1650億"},{"start":3057.555,"end":3083.974,"text":"那當然昨天經濟部長呢 郭部長稱這個3000億是假消息雖然他事後經濟部也提出了說明說是語意 沒有說明清楚但是本席要請教您身為台積電的董事之一那麼川普號稱的要加碼到3000億美元這件事情是不是真的在你們的董事會內部有沒有做討論"},{"start":3085.746,"end":3108.755,"text":"這個是沒有討論,但我有跟委員報告一下,他今天早上在宣布半導體關稅的時候,他又提到是兩千億又提到兩千億?對,他又講到兩千億,那他這個兩千億應該是第二次,我如果沒記錯是第二次談了那所以呢,但是台積電目前的回應,從我們要以公司回應為主,台積電回應還是在1650億"},{"start":3110.953,"end":3130.858,"text":"那主委那這個產業難怪產業非常的緊張因為高度的不確定性由原先說的3000億到早上的2000億那您又是台積電的董事我可以解讀您剛才所做的回答是說目前台積電還是以1650億為投資額那麼至於其他的還沒有做討論是不是可以這麼解讀"},{"start":3138.44,"end":3150.685,"text":"這個都是以公司的回應為主嘛因為這是私人企業嘛那他已經回應了他就是回應1650億那剛才你所說因為你是董事嘛所以目前董事會沒有在討論這個事項"},{"start":3154.436,"end":3158.237,"text":"呃對我們因為從上一次到現在我們是還沒有在討論好所以本期要請教因為政府告訴我們民眾台美的談判還沒有結束還在談但是因為媒體說目前呢"},{"start":3169.561,"end":3189.227,"text":"這個白宮也說是1650億但是早上又稱2000億川普先生自己說的在這樣的情況之下本席要請教台積電因為你是董事台積電在未來以及近期不會再發生加碼投資的事件產生是不是如此"},{"start":3190.507,"end":3211.299,"text":"我沒辦法預測的原因是這樣我們在董事會主要是經營者在做董事長跟CEO在經營那董事會只是對重大決策進行的同意或者是不同意那當然它是一個群體的結果也不是個人的結果群體的一個結果所以因為你身為董事所以本期要請教"},{"start":3213.038,"end":3223.83,"text":"未來會不會因為隨台美關稅談判的過程因為談判的相關又要出現台積電加碼的投資"},{"start":3226.69,"end":3254.348,"text":"我不知道会不会但是我的看法所有的企业在发展的过程中一定是看生意订单他不会去放一笔钱在那边没有订单那所有的企业都是有订单他就会有考虑没有订单他就不会有考虑应该是以订单为核心对现在我们是以你国防会主委的身份在讨论这个国家政策因为现在还在谈总统也告诉我们"},{"start":3255.322,"end":3260.946,"text":"總統也告訴我們還在談還不是結束所以在這樣的情況之下本席才請教你因為談判的相關會不會要求台積電再加碼的這個說法當然你剛剛告訴我你沒有辦法確定告訴我們這也就是我再次強調產業的不確定感跟不安定感那所以本席之所以這麼關注呢因為台積電是我們很重要的戲盾"},{"start":3284.522,"end":3294.529,"text":"那也因為台美談判的高度這個不透明性所以我們看到日韓他們在談判的過程當中他適度的揭露訊息給國民而且日韓也已經談好了關稅對等的這個15%也比台灣低"},{"start":3301.494,"end":3329.501,"text":"那我們看到這樣的情況包括日韓的協議當中也包括了這個半導體跟藥品等相關的產業的待遇也不會比其他國家差但是我們看到我們到目前為止國民產業還是不殺傻我們還是不知道到底是怎麼樣就像剛剛主委你所回答的我還是不確定感所以本期要請教政府到底什麼時候可以告訴民眾"},{"start":3330.521,"end":3350.933,"text":"可以告訴民眾到底我們的樣態是怎麼樣這個因為我沒有參與關稅談判那我只知道還在談所以我個人是蠻肯定的因為已經從32往下降了我個人期待當然是我們會從20再往下降對"},{"start":3353.325,"end":3376.02,"text":"就像您所說的 您也不清楚 民眾更不清楚那各司本職 但是您是國防會的主委所有國家的重大政策決策 您是非常重要的角色接下來本席要請教 除了您也是企業界出身那我們知道不確定感對產業的衝擊是非常的大"},{"start":3376.98,"end":3403.766,"text":"更何況我們對於對等關稅半導體關稅美豬牛農產品市場是不是要開放投資美國的金額都沒有一個方向一個確定感那麼外媒更有報導美方的談判代表正在像擠檸檬一樣壓榨台灣正在這麼做美國想要台灣全面的開放市場我希望不是如此請問"},{"start":3406.687,"end":3431.719,"text":"請問會是如此嗎應該這樣講現在外面的新聞都是沒有參與談判的人在講的那我太太以前就是做WTO談判的就我了解這些都是機密都不可能因為談判是見光死所以沒有人我想商業談判也是一樣的沒有人會把底線跟想法拿出來當然談判有必要的秘密但是也要適度的讓民眾來了解跟安心對不對"},{"start":3435.7,"end":3459.332,"text":"我想放心的部分是台灣的中長期轉型我們往AI為主那像譬如說以台中的工具機它應該是產品的AI高質化那供應鏈的AI化生產的AI化降低成本這些可能是一個更重要的事因為不管關稅怎麼變動企業的轉型都要做所以我們現在就是有一個AI對 關稅怎麼變動都是針對於我們產業非常關鍵"},{"start":3464.415,"end":3471.26,"text":"是非常關鍵不要把它不當一回事這是非常關鍵的所以本席要再來請教因為我們面臨到關稅的這個重大問題那麼我們現在普發現金普發現金普發現金本席要請教7月11號三讀通過了那麼預計在這個條例裡頭總統也公告是在10月底要普發現金所以本席要請教現在也有說要排附的"},{"start":3494.435,"end":3501.898,"text":"既然不服役 什麼時候要做那麼本席要請教不服役 我們什麼時候要做這個總統公告了嘛那整個決策當然還是在預言那"},{"start":3514.373,"end":3532.788,"text":"因為我並沒有參與到這一段所以又有媒體說要排富那麼行政院到底規劃怎麼樣再也推動產業的一個協助普範現金對於我們整個緩解物價高的壓力是非常的重要所以以前"},{"start":3533.268,"end":3535.288,"text":"以前蔡英文總統的時候也曾經發過振興券發過現金馬英九總統時候也發過消費券那現在我們既然法案已經通過總統也公告了本市要請教就您國防會的立場你同意普發現金一萬塊嗎我的立場是這樣我們第一次發消費券的時候是經濟"},{"start":3555.613,"end":3576.668,"text":"在馬英九時代的確景氣很差的時候當時也是從國安會來initial這個事情的但那時候是景氣非常非常差那後面所產生的三倍捐贈跟五倍捐贈是因為我們財政盈餘很多那利用財政盈餘給的那我們現在的狀況是我們上半年6.7%以上的GDP成長率我們的經濟狀況是好的"},{"start":3579.41,"end":3586.955,"text":"那現在是有財政剩餘的部分剛好我們就要拿來用來協助大家渡過關稅難題我們希望渡過關稅 但這筆錢如果拿來協助關稅的議題讓經濟能夠更好可能我認為會普發來得更好因為過去看起來的效果並沒有振興經濟的效果"},{"start":3600.184,"end":3608.53,"text":"提供更好的就業機會來得好所以如果依照主委你的說法你是不贊同普發我沒有不贊同是說我講的是排序因為蘇貞昌排序的部分我們應該是想以正行經濟協助產業度過關稅難關幫助國防安全為優先"},{"start":3620.718,"end":3623.741,"text":"所以蘇貞昌院長曾經說普範現金是全民共享經濟成長的一個果實陳建仁院長也說他可以鼓勵消費振興台灣內需的產業我們希望苦民所苦剛剛我們談到的也就是怎麼樣產業振興從880億到本期一直強調"},{"start":3640.975,"end":3664.953,"text":"絕對不夠到930億我也跟郭部長一直在討論現在我們又希望能夠好好的來協助我們的產業尤其在中部地區工具機、手工具機機械零組件、扣件等木工機等自行車業都在中部地區當然主委你也關心這些產業所以在你一桌內要提出如何協助我們產業的這個數字我們拭目以待"},{"start":3668.436,"end":3688.068,"text":"好好的來協助委員我也補充一下您剛剛講對了我們工具機這些產業都需要幫忙原因是我們有兩個指數一個是生產指數來看未來的生產的狀態的確它是比較比之前期是低的但是消費的部分的指數是往上拉的那往上拉的代表民間消費力道是夠強的"},{"start":3689.429,"end":3694.932,"text":"所以這筆錢要不要再拿?對 你下鄉去看一看啦物價高的一個壓力已經讓人民喘不過氣來了普殺現金一萬元刺激國內的產業的經濟輪動讓人民好生活苦民所苦啦好不好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝現在請邱毅英委員做尋答"},{"start":3722.682,"end":3725.784,"text":"我想您今天準備的報告的內容我不曉得您有沒有看了一下他的題目是什麼我們今天來"},{"start":3747.765,"end":3755.972,"text":"主席排定的議程的題目是什麼你知道嗎談的是未來經濟未來的經濟狀況你看到是後面我看的是前面"},{"start":3757.366,"end":3785.531,"text":"他的主軸是美國對等關稅抵定之後目前還沒有抵定是嗎好所以你這一份報告內容寫的是抵定之後對於台灣的未來景氣跟全球佈局的規劃對不對那現在你剛剛一直在講剛剛楊卓英委員一直問您你一直講關稅還沒有談定確實關稅是還沒有談定所以在關稅還沒有談定之前您今天的報告的內容"},{"start":3787.092,"end":3808.943,"text":"會跟國內的整個局勢跟關稅抵定之後的報告內容會有什麼差異我讓您補充說明一下因為你現在這個題目設定是在關稅抵定之後的發展跟規劃關稅還沒有談定之前會有什麼差別我認為抵定之後呢所有的景氣跟數字會更好"},{"start":3809.773,"end":3827.188,"text":"你認為關稅抵定之後景氣跟數字會更好對的你為什麼會有這樣的信心這個主委我想要談一下因為大家都對於台灣的關稅能夠降到多少其實有非常高的期待從4月份講到美國這個總統講32一直到上個禮拜的20"},{"start":3832.313,"end":3841.161,"text":"但是日韓是15所以有很多在野黨的委員啊或者是有很多人士就來批評說那台灣談的成績並不好但是我們現在告訴大家這個是暫時性的很多人認為說這個是台灣棠色的政府棠色的語言"},{"start":3850.189,"end":3872.463,"text":"所以他到底是不是暫時性到底還有沒有繼續再談繼續談的空間在哪裡包括川普在今天的清晨台灣的時間清晨講到要對半導體開徵100%的關稅除非在美設廠這一句是很重要很多的媒體只有講前面前面一段就是要對半導體開徵100%但是在美設廠這一件事情是很重要"},{"start":3878.687,"end":3892.734,"text":"所以這個如果整個語句完整來看的話對於台積電的影響是什麼台積電看起來應該是沒有影響因為台積電未來是要在美國設廠但是對於台灣其他的半導體的業者來說"},{"start":3895.051,"end":3909.038,"text":"可能會有影響那會不會加劇他們往美國去投資的這個方向你們的評估報告裡頭有沒有包含這個部分主委我讓你說明一下這個部分其實現在台"},{"start":3910.519,"end":3927.091,"text":"它是設廠跟承諾設廠那我們現在有幾種設廠方式以台積電是直接去建廠像中美金是併購透過併購在德州另外我們也看到聯電跟Intel有一些合作案"},{"start":3928.192,"end":3955.84,"text":"我的經驗他也可以透過這個合作的方式來取得關稅的結面對去合作那剩下的部分要有承諾了那承諾的部分就看大家但是我們之前曾經跟這些廠商做過一次座談他們認為台灣的競爭力是夠強的那如果今天大家都在一樣的關稅基礎下以現在來看是大家都在100億的情況下其實大家的競爭是一致的"},{"start":3956.604,"end":3972.094,"text":"所以你認為台灣的競爭力是夠強所以不用擔心這個所謂現在的半導體開徵100%對我認為第一名如果都擔心第二名就會害怕主委但是我想要更進一步請教根據美國的這個貿易擴張法第232條這個"},{"start":3976.997,"end":4000.773,"text":"你雖然現在講說我們的半導體業者其實是不用擔心但是其他跟這個所謂的美國國安或者是產業安全有相關的這一些產業甚至或者是有裝有晶片的產品未來是不是都有可能被課到稅所以這個有可能包含筆電伺服器手機網通設備網路通訊設備跟家電等等"},{"start":4003.855,"end":4017.548,"text":"這一些有沒有可能會在232條的這個限制之下未來他有可能被課到高的這個關稅那就這個部分政府有什麼因應的措施或者是你們有什麼研判這個部分的確"},{"start":4020.291,"end":4044.731,"text":"這幾個現在是列在232還沒有公告所以我們現在做了兩個方案一個是短期短期緊急的時候只能像進急診室一樣我們是應急的方案我目前是編列了951的特別預算希望能夠通過但是我個人的看法如果這個再加劇到含晶片之終端設備的話那我們可能要擴大我們的特別預算"},{"start":4045.611,"end":4067.724,"text":"所以你說擴大特別預算是擴大我們的這個產業韌性的這個條例的預算嗎那第二個部分是中長期的部分中長期的部分就是當產業面臨這個就要開始進行佈局的轉型那我們現在國家政策本來就希望立足台灣這個佈局全球那我們也會協助廠商盡量去做全球的佈局去分散他的風險或者是降低他的風險"},{"start":4068.624,"end":4096.588,"text":"那我們現在也有一個完整的計畫在已經準備好了那我們可以有實時公告我們已經送抱怨了所以在短期、中期、長期我們目前是有因應的做法那但是會不會這個會不會有影響呢還是要影響有多少還是要看最後的公告那它現在是沒有公告因為它這裡面牽扯兩件事情這幾個產品是在豁免清單就在WTO豁免清單裡面"},{"start":4097.569,"end":4125.375,"text":"那在232裡面他會怎麼因應這還是一個所以這個還是很大的不確定性所以那你們有沒有設定一個底線當然我知道在談判的過程裡頭很多的底線是不能現在對外說那你們有沒有設定一個什麼樣的底線或者是說找這一些廠商這一些業者來大家共同討論一下聽一下他們的心聲他們在現在面臨到這樣未來有可能被課稅或者是說"},{"start":4126.135,"end":4143.399,"text":"整體現在的這個關稅的衝擊狀態之下政府有沒有充分的了解掌握廠商的心聲甚至我們有沒有設下一個什麼樣的底線是在跟美方在做談判的時候雙方其實是可以"},{"start":4144.437,"end":4173.074,"text":"是的有的我們有抓住至少對於我們自己廠商的保護那個底線有沒有抓住有的那大部分以SERVER來講大部分的廠商都是比較大型的那我們可以看到在上半年我們面對到墨西哥我們成長了200%多那因為主要是大家的SERVER廠現在放在墨西哥那主要是USDNA那可以得到保障那第二個部分是我的瞭解大家現在開始往達拉斯開始在進行佈局"},{"start":4174.395,"end":4193.132,"text":"那因為這樣的關係經濟部也去談了那目前在談什麼呢 談希望能夠讓台商在達拉斯德州的布局裡面得以免週稅那目前是得到州長的回應那眾議院也有通過 要等他的參議院 州參議院通過"},{"start":4193.892,"end":4218.788,"text":"所以這些我們都積極在協助大家往這條路走那中小型的企業目前他們的想法是因為它規模比較小那去的話是不是能變成一個整合型的公司就產業控股公司過去那這樣的話本來這種小公司要單獨去面對政府會很麻煩那合併成一家公司公司變成部門的話就比較容易或是集團那所以呢我們也修訂了這個企業併購法"},{"start":4221.19,"end":4237.588,"text":"讓這些廠商在併購的過程中沒有成本增加在五年的寬險期本來是併購會要繳稅那現在併購沒有繳稅所以他們可以進行合併然後到海外發展因為他需要比較大的資本所以這些我們都有做好規劃跟業者都溝通過"},{"start":4238.154,"end":4244.442,"text":"主委我再問一個小問題那至於藥品呢生技產業有沒有列入你們的保護清單裡頭現在藥品要被課到未來有可能會被課到250%的稅那生技的這個生技的產業"},{"start":4253.813,"end":4269.144,"text":"有沒有列入你們的所謂的保護清單裡頭就生技的部分因為我們剛剛一直談的大概都是跟半導體有關嘛生技產業的部分呢我們的短中期跟我剛才談的我們免收稅這些都是沒有產業的限制的"},{"start":4269.644,"end":4289.313,"text":"都是沒有產業限制的我們是所有的產業都要保護啦所以我們所有的產業都把它納入那至於未來可能會被課高關稅的部分其實你的保護力道或者是你的輔導力道應該是要再更加強嗎而且我們已經有一個清單以您提的這個製藥業來講有哪些在美國有佈局的我們現在清單都在手上那有一些沒有的它的外銷比重比例這個經濟部也都整理出來了好"},{"start":4299.358,"end":4323.839,"text":"那目前都在手上所以因為我的時間已經到我也不要耽誤大家太多時間但是我想國發會在對於整個在關稅的談判的這個過程裡面所有的追蹤管考跟對於國內產業經濟的衝擊我想還是一直要不斷的滾動性的去修正所以你們今天來的這一份報告其實不叫關稅抵定之後的報告因為現在關稅還沒抵定"},{"start":4325.34,"end":4343.655,"text":"真的抵定之後的衝擊包括內容實質的內容是什麼到時候真的可能還是需要國發會再來到立法院裡頭再做更進一步詳盡的報告因為那個時候其實談判如果都確實結束之後就沒有什麼保密的條款在裡頭了其實國發會更應該開誠布公的讓"},{"start":4346.817,"end":4365.034,"text":"國內的業者也好或者是國內的整體的產業都要很清楚的知道政府到底能夠為我們做一些什麼事情能夠保護我們的產業到什麼樣的程度或者是能夠協助台灣的產業到什麼樣的程度我覺得那個部分可能要請國發會都要隨時密切的掌控好不好好的好 謝謝現在請賴瑞榮委員做詢問"},{"start":4377.107,"end":4377.628,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請那個劉書偉劉書偉"},{"start":4387.451,"end":4407.704,"text":"對 我先請教一個 今天中午正式就會生效 台美的部分先雖然我們現在是暫時性的 中午生效20%的部分先生效 其實其他國家也都是這樣因為我們現在談的叫做暫時性的關稅 表示接下來還會繼續談"},{"start":4409.765,"end":4424.336,"text":"什麼時候會有最後筆定的一個時間這個是談判代表跟這個院在談但是我有被徵詢一些議題所以我很確定他還在進行中還在談判當中當然我們希望後面還會再講但是"},{"start":4429.58,"end":4445.322,"text":"今天因為中午就開始生效了所以相關的因應措施跟準備其實也都一定要啟動了因為這個一旦生效馬上就直接會有相關的影響就會產生那我先確定一下因為早上最早的消息知道就是"},{"start":4446.763,"end":4465.939,"text":"半導體的部分當然關稅是百分之百但是他也有提到如果你有去投資的計畫或即將投資的話那就零就是零那台積電這樣看來是零因為台積電已經在美國做投資所以台積電目前看起來其實是會是零的部分這對台灣來說當然是一個好的消息對因為他的比重比較大"},{"start":4467.019,"end":4483.992,"text":"那這個台積電因為我們看了有幾個廠都在進行 未來也在投資但是還有其他的部分因為台灣跟美國我們畢竟還是前十大的貿易國那從去年來看的話台美之間的貿易順差"},{"start":4486.574,"end":4502.166,"text":"還是前六大 第六大所以其實這個問題顯然我們必須跟美國也做一個好的處理我想川普也會要求跟台灣進行處理那我們看我們周邊的其實像南韓 像日本他們大概都已經初步談定了那裡面大概"},{"start":4505.888,"end":4528.783,"text":"形式上一個是投資像南韓是投資美國3500億美金那像日本是投資5500億美金那台灣是不是也會朝這個方向在進行如果就川普這兩天的訊息出來的話這個我不清楚但是就我來看我們的GDP的總值是低於南韓的那"},{"start":4534.02,"end":4561.218,"text":"這個如果用GDP比重來看投資的話理論上台灣的投資應該還是不可能比高過這些國家啦對如果照這樣來看以日本台灣南韓來看的話其實我們已經也盡了相當大的一個努力了在整個平衡整個貿易的逆差的部分做了相當大的一個努力那所以接下來如果台灣有更多的一些投資方案其實看來很多不管是從包括"},{"start":4562.429,"end":4574.53,"text":"汽車甚至半導體慢慢抵定了之後包括汽車甚至於投資不管是天然氣或投資其他的部分的話那有機會經過這樣的方式的話讓台灣的關稅有機會再降低嗎主委怎麼看"},{"start":4575.578,"end":4597.524,"text":"我是認為很有機會的原因是第一個我們台灣代表處其實大家準備的非常充分那第二個事情是這些團隊也蠻優秀的所以我認為應該會有很好的結果那如果按照日美跟韓美之間的看法的話他們是會先降到一個中間暫時性關稅再往下"},{"start":4599.204,"end":4620.712,"text":"那我們看起來我們的路徑也在接近也正在一個中間路徑所以台灣的趨勢也是照這樣從32到20再20有可能再往下降也許降到類似15日韓越南都是這樣的路徑對那如果是15的話至少在日本跟南韓之間的話但大家的就站這個比較一樣的一個基礎點上面去競爭對台灣的衝擊相對上就會比較小"},{"start":4624.913,"end":4639.931,"text":"所以我們大概還是朝這個目標在努力那主委看起來是樂觀的朝樂觀的方向在看的我們是這樣我們準備的時候風險角度不能樂觀我們就要有版本但是談判結果我們是朝樂觀方向看"},{"start":4640.492,"end":4666.767,"text":"也一定要朝這個方向去做努力這也必然是另外當然有些擔憂的是息產地的問題其實像包括像印尼、越南等等其實都有息產地這個台灣也必須要做萬全的一些準備因為一旦被認定為你是在息產地的話那這個大概就會被又被拉高起來這個部分我想政府應該都做了萬全的準備這個經濟部已經做了一些措施然後進行比較大的管控"},{"start":4668.612,"end":4692.758,"text":"所以我了解經濟部是我也希望國發會持續的關注這樣啦因為畢竟它影響到國家整體的未來的競爭力那國發會站在整個更更高的一個高度上面其實要去不斷去控管跟注意這樣的一個事項那其實台美這六年來其實增加了十倍啦其實確實增長的速度相當快那所以這個大概也是我們要去面臨的問題啦一年將近接近700億700億"},{"start":4695.818,"end":4718.366,"text":"這樣的一個這個貿易的順差我們順差他們是逆差所以這個也是台灣一定要去面對的問題所以我想這個也希望後續的談判結果能夠跟一方面是對台灣的產業的衝擊降到最低那一方面也希望台美的關係更加的穩固我想這是同樣努力的一個目標"},{"start":4719.66,"end":4741.211,"text":"主委應該是朝這樣的看法吧是的好我們希望努力那另外是我想問一下那接下來其實我們談判即將底定了那我們現在處理的大概是用930億的方式來做那剛剛其實主委也提到這個原先最早的規劃就用930億那如果以現在這樣狀況下"},{"start":4742.732,"end":4764.432,"text":"會再增加嗎?就是對於整個產業的支持跟照顧跟協助部分會再做一些增加嗎?以現在來看因為當時是以現在來看應該這個是會滾動式調整那現在來看在我們經濟能力上這個應該是可以先往前走應該是推動應該是夠但是還要看後面的變動"},{"start":4766.093,"end":4780.841,"text":"現在暫定用930億來推啦但是後面隨時在做滾動式的檢討但如果隨時有需要的時候我們隨時可以再來做追加的部分然後給予尤其我們有很大的金額是在支持它出貨的成本"},{"start":4781.661,"end":4806.924,"text":"那因為他需要被支持 那那個出貨量越大 我們的支持金額就會往上拉這個隨著談判的結果出來之後 越來越清楚的出來之後那當然就會有更明確的一些 就是現在這樣子做 這樣子來列但是將來談判結果更明確的出來之後 我們當然就有更明確的一些做法那當然還不足 還不夠的部分"},{"start":4807.584,"end":4828.94,"text":"政府也持續我們會再來調整我想政府挺企業這件事情是沒有問題的這個是絕對沒有問題而且政府挺農漁民這件事情也是沒有問題這是絕對的所以我想這樣的態度至少讓國人放心就是說我們努力的談到最好的結果但是談完之後如果任何受到影響的產業那政府也絕對會挺相關的產業跟農漁民到底這裡面除了這個產業農業經濟的產業以外還有就是這個穩定就業的部分"},{"start":4837.326,"end":4860.481,"text":"對 這個都要持續來進行 這也是政府的主要目的那我再問 那裡面我看到報告裡面 就是政府還是會維持在今年GDP成長3%這樣的一個目標嘛 是不是對 現在是很有信心啦 應該沒有太大問題因為上半年看起來狀況是相當的不錯啦對 然後下半年主要有兩個支柱會產生啦 一個是手機的拉貨潮 第二個是那個"},{"start":4861.441,"end":4877.967,"text":"AI那個這個GP300的新model的儲貨這兩塊都會帶動那我們希望國發會跟各部會密切的注意那我們來看一下燈號的部分其實是到5月6月其實已經進入到了綠燈所以在景氣上面主委擔憂嗎這樣的狀況"},{"start":4879.668,"end":4906.085,"text":"現在景氣狀況是進入我們稱為穩定期綠燈是穩定期那我們是審慎的去規劃後面所以我們才會有擴大內需希望來推動擴大內需來把下半年如果有什麼比較大的變化的話可以所以下半年的景氣狀況主委怎麼看待下半年景氣其實是一個值得關注就是我們還是很謹慎去觀察"},{"start":4907.543,"end":4928.364,"text":"那趨勢上呢就國發會的你們的評估跟判斷呢因為你們的評估判斷會影響到怎麼樣去投入這些相關的資源趨勢上應該會跟去年接近啦就是說會比上半年差但跟去年接近就是說等於是成長力道相較於去年大概會在1.1%或是1.多的一個狀況"},{"start":4931.886,"end":4954.819,"text":"好 我們希望整個密切注意這樣一個狀況好不好也請國防會持續的在這所以會相較下半年 去年下半年有微幅成長就沒有那麼大幅度的我們現在這個是已經是大概應該是全世界最好的上半年對 但是下半年部分還是要請持續的關注這樣一個狀況好 謝謝主委 辛苦了好 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請陳廷飛委員做詢答"},{"start":4967.182,"end":4968.502,"text":"我們是請主委今天川普總統在"},{"start":4982.489,"end":4999.735,"text":"我們臺灣凌晨四點半的部分發布了這個消息其實大家原本以為是下個禮拜可是他提早把這樣的聲音丟出來那這個聲音丟出來之後主委你認為對於我們臺灣的半導體產業有什麼影響"},{"start":5005.883,"end":5018.054,"text":"台灣半導體產業大部分的晶片是輸到組裝廠去大部分不在美國 只有少部分那目前原來我們看到去年是74億美金"},{"start":5019.775,"end":5049.069,"text":"那44億美金如果扣掉台積電再把中美經營在美國也有扣下來的話大概應該會在60不到61美金接近61美金的數字在我們出口的總額應該是百分之應該是1.12啦1.12 對那所以你認為它的衝擊力呢它的衝擊力大概就是以我們可以用61美金來看它的衝擊可是事實上並沒有那麼高的原因我解釋一下就是說"},{"start":5050.292,"end":5065.147,"text":"除了我們剛剛講在美國有廠的廠商之外我們現在還有人是跟Intel合作嘛他也可以跟Intel談合作那另外很明顯我們有建廠跟併購兩種有些企業也可以進行併購快速的進去只要有承諾就可以嘛"},{"start":5065.567,"end":5086.265,"text":"那有實現就沒有實現就要再退這段期間的關稅所以呢大的廠應該會有一些佈局跟動作那我跟我們佈局台灣跟台灣佈局全球一樣嘛那這個政策是一樣我們會支持他那另外我們在德州也幫也正在努力想幫大家拿到的爭取這個我們正在爭取這個"},{"start":5087.226,"end":5111.954,"text":"零週稅的機會目前至少州長是對我們很支持所以這些都開始在佈局那另外一次我們之前跟廠商開會的時候大部分廠商都說他們其實第一個可全球佈局第二個事情只要那個時候多數廠商的表達是說只要他的競爭對手也是課一樣的稅的話"},{"start":5113.194,"end":5128.529,"text":"他們的競爭力是一樣的還是一樣的所以他們認為如果只要是一樣它就沒有很大的差異那現在我們在評估的是Global FungiGlobal Fungi比較大的代工它有一部分在美國那但是它是以8吋廠為主所以我們還在這個還要看它相對的競爭值我們現在"},{"start":5132.871,"end":5136.415,"text":"今天早上我其實發了一些訊息給到相關的協會我們希望盡快的請他們幫我們蒐集出來這個影響應該是非常小因為Global Funding跟台廠之間沒有那麼強的競爭我覺得因為今天川普已經在"},{"start":5150.57,"end":5163.639,"text":"這個臺灣時間凌晨四點半做了這樣的一個宣布就是說半導體要開徵百分之百的關稅除非你是在美國設廠我想他今天會講出這個大概也差不多是這個方向了對還有承諾在美國設廠"},{"start":5164.88,"end":5186.34,"text":"對就是說在美國設廠可能就排除在這之外那我必須說是不是因為這個樣子所以其實在昨天川普他有說了一個所謂台積電要再投資3000億美元那當然台積電本身已經有說了他們目前還是維持在1650億美元這樣的一個標準"},{"start":5190.322,"end":5205.484,"text":"那是不是会因为川普今天早上四点半所做的这个百分之百关税的一个问题而造成台积电在整个投资的一个范围会扩大会不会是这个样子"},{"start":5206.207,"end":5220.335,"text":"這個我們還是要尊重台積電的看法那但是我的經驗是這樣子這個沒有訂單他也不會去有訂單他才會去這是他必須對他的股東負責因為他是一個上市公司"},{"start":5221.155,"end":5249.726,"text":"所以呢台積電應該會衡量這些因素可是競爭力啊如果說他把這樣子投資他說的如果在美國市場可以排除在百分之百關稅的一個部分嘛會不會是在這樣的一個競爭力的條件之下而讓台積電有所轉移其實大家擔心的是這個狀況我的瞭解台積電輸美的比例非常低啦因為他大概在1%出頭而已啦那所以沒有那麼大的"},{"start":5251.317,"end":5257.265,"text":"他大部分都出到組裝廠去所以主委你這個才是關鍵因為現在台積電是一個我們台灣的護國勝散"},{"start":5262.116,"end":5282.282,"text":"大家所担心的是说会不会因为这样的一个变动关税的调整而让台积电在经营的层面当中有所改变可是如果依照主委所说的其实它本身它所在这个区块影响是很少的"},{"start":5283.271,"end":5310.752,"text":"目前是這樣的對啊目前嘛可是跟著半導體開徵百分之百關稅的這個部分會不會有所變動大家擔心的是這個目前影響很少可是未來因為川普對半導體開徵百分之百關稅之後然後再競爭力的條件會有沒有可能有轉移"},{"start":5312.797,"end":5324.735,"text":"因為台積電其實有一個8吋廠在阿勒岡州加上現進製程所以他應該比他的競爭對手更佔優勢目前的狀態反而是他的優勢比較高"},{"start":5326.707,"end":5352.349,"text":"所以我覺得主委我們應該不是在於三千億兩千億一千六百五十億而是你要把我們目前對於產業別的分析告訴民眾我覺得重點兩千億三千億一千六百五十億我覺得這是一個數字可是這個數字會影響人民的信心畢竟台積電是護國神山"},{"start":5355.032,"end":5366.642,"text":"但是如果依照主委所说的依照目前台积电它的整个经营方式它其实在美国这个区块是竞争力跟各方面是影响比较少"},{"start":5367.668,"end":5392.155,"text":"如果是這樣的話 那當然他就不會思考我要去投注三千億美元我要去投注多少的一個增加資本額的一個部分所以我覺得應該把這個我們在整個產業的一個投資狀況跟發展狀況還有分布狀況跟民眾說清楚否則你糾結在這個數字人民會搞不清楚"},{"start":5393.154,"end":5415.962,"text":"好像說在這一波的一個關稅當中是不是連我們護國神山都要過去其實不是不是的對嘛其實不是目前應該只有差不多6%對嘛其實不是嘛所以如果6%跟大家腦袋裡面所想是不是哇3000億美元多少美元過去那台灣怎麼辦所以是不是的"},{"start":5416.662,"end":5439.818,"text":"我覺得我們要去講的是我們目前在針對產業當然投不投資是台積電本身他們在整個商業經營的一個範疇當中他們的思考可是我們政府是可以我們整個半導體發展的區塊我們來做分析目前就是6%"},{"start":5441.264,"end":5468.931,"text":"產能的部分對產能的部分這個產能講的是2029年的產能對產能的部分但2029年不是現在對現在它輸美的部分只有在1%上下那這個影響非常小的那未來產能擴大之後因為主要有一些組裝廠也會在墨西哥跟德州那大概大概是這樣的一個狀態所以目前就是一person目前對那在整個"},{"start":5470.541,"end":5491.908,"text":"所有的區塊做調整之後這個所謂未來的投資1650億美元增加之後我們所有看到的2029年可能影響到6%對 可是它這整個還很久因為2029年是第三場的量產2028年是四產"},{"start":5494.564,"end":5514.942,"text":"所以依照主委所分析的基本上它的整个影响的程度其实没有我们想象的那么多那么大范围那么广因为它是全球布局的一个概念台积业还是一个企业它还是以企业经营为核心因为它还要对股东负责"},{"start":5516.215,"end":5543.357,"text":"他的资金来源是从他的股东来的那他在股市上的公司他必须要很谨慎而且很负责的去面对所以主委我觉得你今天这个讲法才能真正的让台湾人民安心否则一直我们讲的护国神山然后不断的讯息来的是说他的投资在美国投资会增加是不是我们所有的主要的"},{"start":5544.759,"end":5561.394,"text":"主要的部分都會往美國來移但並不是嘛對 它其實現在有它有八個廠在要建設或是未建設在台灣那遠比美國多很多啦所以我覺得我們要把這個最關鍵的講出來然後那個主委我要再問一下"},{"start":5564.833,"end":5584.324,"text":"這一波在美國關稅的部分其實對台南兩個部分影響最多就是蝴蝶蘭跟台灣貂這兩個是在我們所有的產業其實市占率台南是最多的是的所以在這個部分到底我們要怎麼做"},{"start":5586.285,"end":5610.323,"text":"這個部分我們有一個短期因應方案由農業部主政提出來就是我們在我們編列的900多億來協助產業跟農業那這個是在我們短期協助的方向那中長期的部分當然我們還是會慢慢的去分散市場但短期的應急我們現在是用資金來協助業者度過當前的問題"},{"start":5611.775,"end":5618.334,"text":"尤其今天早上行政院院長有提到一個叫投資台灣三大方案的2.0版"},{"start":5620.097,"end":5649.166,"text":"他要引資1.2兆這個部分裡面有一個叫貸款額度要新增貸款額度來讓企業能夠增加他的一個投資量跟他的穩定性主委這個很重要每一次都是我們有方案但是銀行端的配合度並沒有那麼好所以如果我們真的要讓他百分之百達到效果銀行端的部分你們要去溝通好"},{"start":5650.086,"end":5675.243,"text":"否則真正想用的用不到他們為了要讓你們看美化數字然後去拜託那個那個可能不需要貸款的人去貸然後真正需要貸的 貸不到我覺得這個部分是每次只要我們有這個投資方案我們得到基層的這些企業最大的反應所以我在這裡提醒一下我們的主委"},{"start":5675.603,"end":5686.653,"text":"好 我們反映給那個經管會跟經濟部對 這個部分你們既然要跨部會這個都跨部會你們跨部會再處理的時候這是很重要的謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝現在請鄭正前委員做詢答"},{"start":5703.869,"end":5705.452,"text":"謝主席 我想請一下國發會的劉主委劉主委"},{"start":5713.414,"end":5741.502,"text":"鄭委員早主委平安非常感謝今天那個主席安排美國對冷關稅抵定後我國經濟未來的景氣情況及全球佈局的新規劃那坦白說因為目前我們的對冷關稅還沒有抵定還沒有抵定那我在想說不過我們也從這個主委今天的報告當中看到了有一些新的內容包括說你講的新產業新動能跟新佈局這部分"},{"start":5742.462,"end":5763.283,"text":"我是想說先再請教一個部分就是說因為目前在整個對冷關稅當中的時候都會碰到幾個狀態就是包括投資金額的一個承諾的一個部分那我想問比方說不管台灣這邊到時候被迫或者是主動要去投資多少的金額企業的投資金額裡面算不算在這個承諾的金額裡頭"},{"start":5765.665,"end":5793.919,"text":"我并没有参与谈判但是从日本来看日本的是韩企业投资日本是韩企业对不对对他有抗一部分的那个像孙正义的投资不因为之前AIT他曾经出来讲就说企业的投资的部分可能不算在这个里头你知道这个讯息吗之前那个靖州他本来有一个新闻公布出来之后然后后来很快下架"},{"start":5794.847,"end":5810.185,"text":"你有注意到這個訊息嗎我沒有注意到這個訊息但是我有看到那個日本相關的訊息了所以日本他們是企業投資政府鼓勵企業投資也包含在這個承諾金額裡頭它是靠整個國家的投資嘛"},{"start":5813.228,"end":5832.36,"text":"OK好那這個部分我想特別問的狀態就是因為台積電就是我們去美國投資當很重要的一個部分那剛很多委員都提到因為護國神山的一個動向洞見觀瞻那因為我們國發基金其實也是目前台積電就是"},{"start":5833.18,"end":5848.503,"text":"大概最主要的實質的股東大概佔6.38%的股份其實非常的多所以我們肯定對台積金這邊也會有一些影響力那比方說今天早上川普說他就再度點名你剛才也提到第二次的點名"},{"start":5849.003,"end":5869.506,"text":"就說台積電要去投2000億那8月5號的時候台積電是直接只表示說他們要投1650億當中有350億的一個差距的時候我在想說我們國發會我們政府這邊會不會有一些什麼樣子的一個表態還是說直接還是把它推給企業就是說這企業的一個行為"},{"start":5871.229,"end":5889.851,"text":"倒不是要推給企業我們一向是支持台積電的決策因為我是董事我可能講錯什麼會造成股市的變動所以我們一般來講從公司治理是由發言人來發言我們不會對單一公司進行發言"},{"start":5891.152,"end":5911.07,"text":"那我只是如果從國安會來看今天早上的內容那今天早上的內容他其實又調整到兩千億那第二個事情是主要是他公布出來的是對台積電比較有利就是等於是台積電已經在美國設廠那他就沒有關稅反而其他的競爭者會產生關稅的問題"},{"start":5913.112,"end":5933.749,"text":"理解那台積電其實在美國有成熟製程在奧羅岡在有很早就去了然後再加上有先進製程其實目前來講是對他比較利多了我在看目前的狀態我剛才提到這個狀態就是說除了國八基金其實是台積電最重要的實質股東之外的那另外一部分就是說因為台積電對台灣確實影響大"},{"start":5935.771,"end":5959.426,"text":"目前承諾1650億美元的時候大概有5兆台幣的一個狀態那我在想說去投資基本上國際全球佈局都是好事啦只是我們也會擔心就是說再多350如果再多350億那就再多1兆台幣的狀態的時候那投資美國跟投資台灣對於我們的一個資本投資一定會有點不太一樣所以我們也希望說"},{"start":5960.426,"end":5982.808,"text":"政府在這樣子的一個事情當中說也許會有一個態度出來那讓台積電也許會變成有一個比較好的一個依靠因為有一個最新的新聞因為一大早媒體有報導就是魏哲嘉又急飛美國去那不曉得是什麼事情那我在想說因為就是目前因為整個對等關係還沒有抵定然後很多的企業其實都很"},{"start":5983.708,"end":6005.186,"text":"擔心都很著急所以就會有些不安的一些情緒在所以我想說政府這邊的態度其實會有一點點重要對安定民心的一個狀態我就肯定是重要的啦那我在想說在這邊的時候我在特別再問一個跟台積電有關的就是這幾天因為台積電的金船的先進製程二奈米製程洩密案"},{"start":6006.006,"end":6026.638,"text":"就是有工程師偷拍照要給日本的這家公司的時候當然就是台積電他的PIP做得很好這點確實是要肯定他的一個機密資訊的保護做得很好可是我在想說為什麼就是在台積電其實他們在這個"},{"start":6028.459,"end":6041.804,"text":"PIP的部分其實本來就一直都有說很好的教訓可是還是會有工程師或者高階工程師他們去做這樣的事情我不曉得我們國安這邊政府這邊有沒有特別去關注過這個事情"},{"start":6044.033,"end":6061.253,"text":"這個部分國科會因為他主掌我們關鍵機密技術的部分所以這個在國安法上面會有我們就有做了一些保護那這個案子現在也是檢調在協助調查"},{"start":6063.315,"end":6082.616,"text":"那所以呢相關的因應的團隊都出現了那就我的了解它並不是全部的資訊第二個事情是很多事情不是看一個paper就會了譬如說不可能你讀一個怎麼投棒球你就可以去打直棒它中間還有很多那台積電事實上"},{"start":6083.891,"end":6101.001,"text":"就我了解喔他是把他的機密是切一段一段一段一段的所以呢拿到一段沒辦法知道其他的部分其實也很難去所以說就是因為這樣子所以我覺得有工程師他們去冒這個險冒這個國安的一個險的時候我們就覺得很特殊"},{"start":6102.328,"end":6119.799,"text":"這個在過去很多的企業有喔,那我覺得這個案子會給很多人清楚的知道新的國安法會有12年的徒刑,我想會讓很多的工程師開始比較謹慎了,否則的話過去好多公司都發生過這種類似的,然後有跑到"},{"start":6120.539,"end":6132.098,"text":"其他國家去的都存在而且除了最高12年的一個刑責之外還有1億的一個法院那這個就讓我想這次利用這次應該會讓很多人都看到了"},{"start":6134.013,"end":6156.11,"text":"謝謝主委那我這邊再問一個就是有關於聯合再生能源這個部分因為就是去年的時候主委有特別提到說已經針對國發基金針對聯合再生啟動那個退場機制的一個狀態可是到目前為止的時候已經快要一年了那去年的8月27號已經快要一年了請問到目前的時候進度如何"},{"start":6157.859,"end":6183.107,"text":"這個我可以說明一下因為我們當時這個部分是參與私募那私募如果像我現在是規範私募在公司賺錢的時候我就要時間到就要轉成一般股那一般股就可以在股市買賣那這個當時因為他不賺錢所以就一直留在私募這個部分那私募的話就要整個批量線下交易那他要打折"},{"start":6183.607,"end":6212.263,"text":"所以我講的狀態就是2018年的時候那時候國發基金要用私募普通股的方式進場的時候因為坦白說那個時候聯合再生的那個表現其實就不是特別的好而且整個國際的一個大環境對於這個光電業的部分的時候其實也不是那麼看好所以我們當時為什麼國發基金會用私募普通股的方式進去我比較關心這決策的一個過程那我們也希望從這過程當中的時候得到一些"},{"start":6213.345,"end":6221.531,"text":"教訓就是我們在做這樣子的一個投資的一個決策過程當中的時候會不會有一些更好的一個機制更透明的一個機制在"},{"start":6224.402,"end":6245.189,"text":"當時因為它本身就是發行私募那第二次增資我們就是普通股那普通股其實我們有在傾那私募要找買家是比較辛苦一點那的確我們目前的進度是不好的那第二個原因是我們在委員會核定的價格也比較高不符合一般私募的要求"},{"start":6246.829,"end":6267.928,"text":"那因為我們是獨立性的委員會那國發基金請委員弄的合訂以後我們就是依據這個價格進行找買主那我們是有委託兩次其實都非常辛苦那我們現在是這樣子任何的特別股跟私募都要經過我先看過來合訂那我得看到特別股的條件"},{"start":6269.309,"end":6282.316,"text":"那我們我們比以前還謹慎第二個部分我們也開始我也要求所有的我們都檢核一遍然後就是說只要能夠吻合轉換的我們就一律都轉換那這樣的話就可以在公開市場進行來來來拋售"},{"start":6286.281,"end":6313.256,"text":"謝謝主委因為今天報告當中有特別提到了就是那個在整個新動能的部分有提到提升投資動能那裡面提到了一個那個均衡台灣的一個六大區域產業生活圈的部分那因為之前在賴總統24年選舉之前的時候特別提到桃竹苗大細股計畫這部分那我也非常的關注那我想說因為這東西我想說國發會這邊肯定有些管考的一個計畫"},{"start":6314.096,"end":6327.371,"text":"那我在想說這個桃園大細股計畫的時候後續的進度如何然後會不會這四年當中都還是只是留於一個口號的狀態所以我比較關注的是它的一個具體的一個進度"},{"start":6329.733,"end":6346.078,"text":"跟委員報告我們這次我們除了這個我們六大區域裡面的桃竹苗大溪谷是第一個死刑案例那我們其實做了兩件事還做了區域治理什麼區域治理就是說我們當時邀請過桃園市長新竹縣長新竹市長"},{"start":6351.4,"end":6374.579,"text":"苗栗縣長一起到我們國發會來那我們跟他們說明整個計畫因為這裡面含中央跟地方要一起搭配那尤其地方要搭配的是比較屬於生態系的部分包括住宅也好 商場也好那中央還有學校 有醫院等等那我們就大家一起"},{"start":6375.74,"end":6400.762,"text":"把這個計畫做一個商討以後我們建了一個平台是由我們的副主委跟他們的副市長跟縣長大家進行溝通所以就會產生就是說像中央的交通建設我們會做地方的他們要進行規劃那就大家在這個平台上一起在談討所以新竹市也會有新竹市政府當時代理市長也有來那他們也會依據這個部分開始往下規劃"},{"start":6402.483,"end":6423.228,"text":"我們這個平台是他有遇到困難我們會來探討好 謝謝主委那我在想這個部分是我們希望說能夠有具體一個進度然後主委把它落實下來然後盡速把它落實下來再盡快看怎麼樣大家可以從中央跟地方之間大家來落實套住那大旗鼓好 謝謝主委主委平安 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝我們現在請鄭天才委員做詢問"},{"start":6445.143,"end":6460.479,"text":"主席有請主委劉主委好主委好好辛苦了好今天談這個關稅這個以國發會的今天的報告"},{"start":6467.603,"end":6482.649,"text":"這個美國川普總統4月2號依國際緊急經濟潛力法至今年的4月5號對所有國家加徵10%對等關稅在這樣的一個這幾個月的過程當中對台灣"},{"start":6489.696,"end":6506.98,"text":"有什麼樣的影響嗎?對產業產業其實一開始是惶恐那後來大家就會利用8月1號的空檔就是加速出貨所以很多產業就大部分都在出貨潮"},{"start":6509.361,"end":6526.39,"text":"那當然有一部分比較弱勢的產業還是辛苦的在度過了像工具機這些的所以剛好是一個兩面的狀態一組是非常好的出貨那也造成我們上半年的出口增加了非常多將近25%"},{"start":6528.931,"end":6551.927,"text":"那這個但是還有一些產業是非常辛苦那經濟部也很積極的跟他們溝通在協助那有些產業有些產業是像鋼鐵鋁都加了50%那這個一開始大家覺得衝擊很大後來經濟部去訪談下來大家反而更在意的是匯率不是在於那50%因為全世界都是50%它的對手也是50%的時候它的競爭並沒有改變所以等於是多種樣貌在產生在產業裡面"},{"start":6562.421,"end":6585.627,"text":"這個那現在就是說這個32%降至20%我們雖然是稱為暫時性稅率但是因為要繼續談你說要繼續談那到底這個暫時性是多久不知道吧對不對就看談的狀況所以這個部分是一個"},{"start":6588.362,"end":6610.796,"text":"需要繼續去加油的地方是的那我們看這個當初啊這個提出這個特別條例的時候930億當然一開始是800多億了後面諮詢希望能夠提高送來的是930億所以當初這個930億對產業的這個支持方案"},{"start":6617.658,"end":6643.835,"text":"當初是以32%來規劃的還是20%來規劃的當時是以32%來規劃的所以基本上這個經費目前應該是因應但是我們因為這個部分當時是依據財政的能力但是我們當然希望力度越大越好我記得當時很多委員都希望再增加"},{"start":6645.276,"end":6670.971,"text":"事實上沒有錯所以反而可以更加更強力的支持產業度過難關好這個因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例在8月1號已經公佈施行了這個特別預算還是要送來立法院你的了解行政院什麼時候會送來"},{"start":6673.764,"end":6691.475,"text":"我們昨天有討論那還是院會做決定我不在我們秘密處女院最後決定是何時送這個要請主委去建議院長我的建議是"},{"start":6692.642,"end":6717.18,"text":"越快送來是越好好的就因為還要審議嘛立法院還要審議是的是的啊所以知道立法院審議的過程也不確定對不對要從是這個委員會而且還是跨委員會的嘛對不對然後還送到院會之前還有什麼朝野協商啊所以相關的部分這個應該是說話"},{"start":6721.048,"end":6742.091,"text":"還是要早一點送來萬一不得已的時候還有其他途徑嘛這個特別條例本來就有一個因應的途徑或者是再用最佳預算什麼之類的都可以反正當初這個你早一點核定因為現在已經"},{"start":6743.815,"end":6760.097,"text":"雖然是叫30信啦事實上已經20%了嘛對不對現在啊中午嘛中午今天中午之後嘛對對啊所以他一定有影響啦所以這個部分這個請主委介意行政院店長趕快"},{"start":6762.792,"end":6790.606,"text":"所以今天早上宴會沒有列這個我在這裡我沒有參加宴會不是有沒有列提子昨天就知道就說到這個行政院的議程昨天就發出去了所以這個我常常在當公務員的時候也會收到行政院的那個會議通知好這個不管怎麼樣夜早特別預算夜早通過"},{"start":6791.886,"end":6794.167,"text":"時間的關係,半導體關稅達100%當然是說在那邊設產或承諾的但是從過去,從川普總統就任到現在,他常常改變"},{"start":6816.707,"end":6846.324,"text":"常常变了所以还是我们要因应的甚至是很多了好我们时间的关系我在这个你的报告里面特别提到中衡台湾这个部分针对东部提到的是漫活城乡东部漫活城乡这是一个很好的方向动点是在于我们的交通我们的交通"},{"start":6849.69,"end":6877.266,"text":"我們的交通0403地震到現在已經一年多了一年多了0403到現在為止我不斷在這裡質詢在交通委員會也質詢過最近一次724號質詢交通部長宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫"},{"start":6878.646,"end":6901.634,"text":"他這個只有從德 主要的是從德到河仁這一段1.6公里而已結果一年多了都還沒有核定現在案子還在目前是行政院交付給國發會現在交付到我們這裡那跟委員報告我們現在有些部會已經有回覆了但是還有一些部會我們還在"},{"start":6902.994,"end":6931.767,"text":"催促他们尽快恢复那我们等下回去我也会尽量跟部会的首长讨论一下我们把这个尽快能够在最短的时间送到院里面去一定要协调要请主委协调这个现在是公共工程委员会还没有答复对答复了之后你们还要开会吗原则上都会要开一次会对啊所以这个部分我的建议会议通知先发"},{"start":6933.993,"end":6951.183,"text":"會議通知先發好的好的這樣的話就他就會急著送來了好好不好好這個部分因為我們如果去對比北迴鐵路北迴鐵路我剛剛講1.6公里那個河壬到崇德這北迴鐵路79.2公里大橋22座16座的隧道對不對"},{"start":6964.793,"end":6992.058,"text":"1973年10月因為挪拉颱風重篡東部交通當時的省主席謝東敏提議當時的行政院院長兩個月就核定了所以這個部分當然跟現在不一樣但是也不能1.6公里的河輪到崇德要花一年多的時間這個效率也太那個 所以這跟"},{"start":6993.126,"end":7008.271,"text":"花東的交通有很大的關係這個部分就請諸委這個會議通知就先發然後這個還沒有送來就是公共工程委會當然他馬上就會送給你 好不好好的 謝謝好 謝謝現在請張奇凱委員做詢答"},{"start":7039.588,"end":7039.829,"text":"好 委員長"},{"start":7052.031,"end":7074.056,"text":"主委,今天台灣的時間早上凌晨四點,川普公布對我們晶片跟半導體100%我剛剛看了你的答詢,像真正的癥結是什麼?川普要的就是美國生產嘛,對不對?那相對之下,我們現在要解決的問題,是不是因為他課了這麼高的一個關稅,我們的半導體會不會外移非常嚴重?"},{"start":7075.626,"end":7091.796,"text":"他不只課這個關稅100%他有個計畫嘛 對不對他說你如果要我美國投資 對不對還是說你有投資計畫我就是領嘛那這個像在拔河啊川普都出招了他也跟你講得那麼清楚啊我要你的半導體他之前說你把我的晶片都拖走了"},{"start":7093.34,"end":7121.79,"text":"那這樣會不會導致 會不會導致台灣的半導體 現在是全州都去喔不是只有台電去喔 上中下游像這段時間你應該有知道那個整個狀況吧很多相關的業者都過去了嘛會不會因為今天的這個100%導致我們的半導體的產業更加速的外移到美國去這應該不是外移喔 我們過去有外移的情形是很多中小型的企業把這邊關掉到了別的地方去生產"},{"start":7123.01,"end":7150.599,"text":"那現在這個不是萬一是全球佈局就是他跟在台灣我們來看建設來看現在台積電一廠做完再蓋二廠但是台積電現在在高雄在嘉義這些地方都在建廠包括台中也要再建新廠其實這邊的建台積電在台灣的投資遠超過在美國的投資如果像您是專家就很清楚在三個廠去的時候大家就在看"},{"start":7151.48,"end":7170.337,"text":"這個大概產能可以佔台積電多少那時候大家估計都在6%多那事實上台積電以外銷美國來看現在在1%上下其實都沒有那麼多它不是外移它是全球布局的部分他認為外移這個字可以變成是全球布局兩種他如果把台灣關掉"},{"start":7175.101,"end":7192.762,"text":"過去就是外移就跟移民一樣有些會不會關掉關掉了有沒有關掉是個問號但是台積電所有的先進製程都在台灣那投資金額是有限的嘛對不對就是有排擠嘛例如說本來要在台灣要投資一千億嘛那因為我美國這個高關稅我只要有一半到那邊去那台灣投資當然就減少囉"},{"start":7194.563,"end":7211.371,"text":"這個您是專家一定更清楚每個企業在進行投資的時候一定會看到他的他手上的資金流量來然後看他的佈局那您對企業比較了解一定很清楚沒有一個企業會去蓋一個廠擺在那裡花一千億然後沒有人買對不對"},{"start":7212.891,"end":7237.879,"text":"所以他一定是有訂單他才會往前移動那第二個事情是他在資金的佈局上面很明顯他在台灣在建廠非常多遠比美國多很多那就很明顯他的資金的投資在這邊那台積電的資金流量一定是控制的非常嚴謹的我們做兩個非常具體的指標嘛第一個有沒有因為本來要在台灣的這個投資或者他的產能現在到美國去這是馬上看得到的喔"},{"start":7238.779,"end":7266.277,"text":"因為你是個企業你現在一定要想我在台灣生產然後在美國生產美國這邊要在台灣可能要100%那到那邊是零沒有這個我們就不用爭辯這個就未來很快就可以看得到有沒有影響到台灣的投資或者某些產業的外移委員其實這有一個證明點這個證明點就是說美國的產能有沒有人包下來美國做的有沒有人有沒有買家如果沒有"},{"start":7267.017,"end":7283.467,"text":"沒有的話就會吻合你剛才講的但如果有那就另外一個看法了那我現在的瞭解是說他是確定要有訂單他才會生產目前是這樣的狀況所以他不會有空置產能你只要看產能利用率就很清楚了我們剛剛這樣討論我要求兩個東西好不好就是未來辦"},{"start":7289.931,"end":7315.336,"text":"開始要你要去推估就是經過這百分之百這個衝擊完之後不管是外移或者是全球布局要兩個東西第一個在投資台灣的這個金額有沒有減少或是有哪些加速到美國去投資影響到台灣把這兩個做個整理好不好金額跟投資額的加速這個都很明顯很快就看得到了好不好因為這個要訪談我們大概只能訪談主要代表廠商啦因為這個蠻大的量"},{"start":7316.487,"end":7337.657,"text":"你先反彈幾個比較有代表性的好那我們更具體的你是我們國家這個公股董事台積電的公股董事嘛台積電現在面臨兩個很重要的挑戰一個是投資金額川普一直在加碼一直在加碼今天最新的他講的不是三千億喔兩千億當然也有可能再跳回去三千億不過這金額都很大"},{"start":7338.798,"end":7367.501,"text":"兩千億是增加多少?目前是1650是台積電發言人很確定的在回應數字那如果照川普講的至少要增加350億的美金350億美金是多少?一條耶中央政府總預算的三分之一耶那這筆錢是本來要投資在台灣的會不會到美國去?這個是一個考量點對不對那你的了解你是公股公股的這個董事你對於現在到底到美國投資到底是多少?"},{"start":7369.021,"end":7394.646,"text":"內部你們有沒有評估過投資就是1650目前所以雖然川普現在是喊價嗎還是已經很具體已經有跟你們要求還沒有我想這個民間的事情當然是以台積電發言人為主你也知道董事大概就沒辦法講太多但是就我的了解目前還是在1650站在公股董事的這個代表國家去你比較支持再繼續加碼嗎還是留在1650"},{"start":7397.419,"end":7425.34,"text":"我的看法是這樣子看生意了你的訂單有沒有那這個所有的企業都是照這個走啦有訂單可以賺到錢就去那第二個是我們看下來在高雄六個廠的計畫沒有變然後這個其實嘉義的廠的計畫沒有變尤其嘉義的投資其實你應該知道不只兩個廠對不對那再加上台南跟台中所以他的"},{"start":7426.161,"end":7452.094,"text":"投資量能而且您可以看到目前最先進的都在臺灣所以他不會改變那我們現在最守住的就是最先進的製程一定在臺灣所以主委我們跟全民承諾在對美國加大投資的同時臺灣一定要顧到對不對你剛講這些廠我們要顧到就是不能少只能增加最新的技術一定在臺灣你剛講新的你現在講到第二個就是我要講的第二個危機理工核心技術來"},{"start":7453.454,"end":7475.393,"text":"現在川普跟美國要求的是什麼?不是只有生價金了啦他要求Intel我們要合股對不對?要去買多少?變成49%對不對?對,這個是新聞喔所以要問公股董事啊我們台積電的公股董事啊你們內部有沒有討論過如果要去要去跟Intel做這麼大的一個投資49%欸19%"},{"start":7477.628,"end":7505.754,"text":"表示51%還是intel主導嘛為什麼要去美國為什麼要做這個要求要去救intel嘛對不對我上次國元跟你報告一下上次我就有回應到intel就造成美國的股市股價就下滑了所以我想我是不建議我們可以私下聊聊但是我不建議我們在不公開討論我們不用像經濟部長郭志輝講說合併去入股合併救他們雖然上次沒有影響到台灣但是影響到美國股價上到好多媒體"},{"start":7506.474,"end":7526.512,"text":"有內部評估可是我們還不公開啦OK好那就我們私底下再來問好來我接下來問兩個很重要的這個事情這都是你主管的重要的那個我們現在啊面臨的是美國的關稅一直在拉高可是主委你沒有發現在民進黨政府在抗中保台的同時"},{"start":7528.697,"end":7542.363,"text":"我們從中國大陸賺的錢一直在快速的下滑我可以看這個是審計部跟很多這個統計最近這五年民國109年到110年度我國出口到"},{"start":7545.524,"end":7553.608,"text":"中國大陸早說的產品出口值介於149億美元到259億美元光是最近這兩年民國110年到113年度呈現負成長少了多少18.76%一個是減了23%我們從大陸那邊賺的錢減少了將近四分之一"},{"start":7570.237,"end":7599.489,"text":"減少了四分之一那現在更恐怖的是什麼我們本來這筆錢就從美國去賺嘛我們去年從美國賺了739億對不對可是現在危機來了因為這個刀關稅衝擊川普的意思就是你賺了我的錢我要拿回來啦所以美國那邊會不會減少這是一個危機更重要的現在還要走我們不是一直在強調要去加入一些七一的經濟對不對我們看一下這個是審計部最新的決算報告他說我們政府啊"},{"start":7601.95,"end":7626.538,"text":"這個國發會應該有接到啦這是審計部的結算報告政府最近這幾年積極在推動國際經貿的這個拓展要去爭取出國產業的對外貿易的立足點的平等你看人家國與國之間都是很多都是零關稅自有貿易對不對我們已經要簽訂加入七億整合協定已經十幾年了可是現在申請加入包括CPTPP兩年到現在還沒有進來"},{"start":7627.93,"end":7652.137,"text":"沒有發現所以相對你大陸那邊ECOPA的你現在少了那麼多錢一年少了四分之一的錢從大陸賺的錢而且越來越在抗中保台越來越少結果從美國賺的錢美國現在川普出手可能會降下來你現在跟東協跟其他國家你要申請這個國際的這個冠帽的到現在進不去啊因為中國的反對我們現在這幾個全部都是中國反對"},{"start":7653.359,"end":7675.877,"text":"那如果中國不反對,我認為我們的機會都很大啦中國一定反對嘛,中國對台灣的打壓是無時不刻的你講對了,他一直在打壓我們所以呢,我們自己也要有做好準備、做好防衛啦所以注意這上面準備,而且要突破啊,人民要看你是要突破嘛"},{"start":7676.457,"end":7697.863,"text":"我剛剛講這三個點都很重要對不對中國大陸抗中保台之下收入減少了美國看起來本來是高的可是可能會往下掉因為川普出手了接下來你跟這個經濟貿易這一塊你要加入的這個國際組織現在都是停所以是不是這一塊要趕快再一突破要多加強我們會繼續努力啦但是我們不會再像打壓我們的人屈服啦"},{"start":7698.563,"end":7722.771,"text":"現在當然不能欺負啦 重點是自己要自立自強 你自己這條路要趕快去開出來現在是審計部的決算報告喔 這是要求國發會也要做改正的喔你要面對這個 你要回答審計部喔後來 最後問一個很重要的題 這幾天光電板 山也光電板 海也光電板 製縫池也光電板 農地也是光電板"},{"start":7724.244,"end":7751.446,"text":"引起了全民的抗議,現在光電板已經卡住了而且這次颱風一來破損的壞掉了,甚至有些都已經堆到這個農地上面去了民怨非常的深,我來看一下審計部怎麼講新界部他們最近提了一個報告說政府的太陽能這個光電啊這也是你管的,你本來訂一個目標嘛,對不對?訂一個目標嘛,結果審計部現在審理出來的"},{"start":7753.322,"end":7760.07,"text":"跳票 魚塞在跳票特別是在魚墊共生這一塊魚墊共生就是下面養魚上面有光電板"},{"start":7762.358,"end":7781.453,"text":"你們訂的木片到現在達成率是多少?您提到這個漁電工生我們也看到這次在家也有廠商他其實是放在他的儲存櫃跟屋頂上一個新的模式這個新的模式讓他度過了五天這個斷電的時間"},{"start":7784.275,"end":7808.547,"text":"那其實我們在台南也有廠商他們就是漁電業者這個養魚業者自己做的新型漁電工生他們自己覺得效果很好所以我們現在在試著搭配這些一起來推廣他們覺得就是養魚業者覺得比較好的模式我們希望推廣給業者達到合作另外我們也在協調我們也在協調農業部就是說過去漁電工生如果是"},{"start":7812.409,"end":7837.791,"text":"他必須要養魚的部分可以免費給到農業青年得到免費的餘溫來養魚然後達到一個三贏的角色我現在跟你講的是我們經過希望來改善那至於他的那個房台的強化我們我想我們也會找經濟部來協商看看經濟部可不可以在這個部分做一個強化那再來我們現在所有的這個光電要設置一定要經過溝通"},{"start":7839.472,"end":7867.052,"text":"才能送案那這個溝通的部分我們現在也做了比較大的改善就是說我們分兩個區一個區是在地居民一個不是在地居民那這樣的話我們可以分清楚在地人的聲音是什麼那這些都做過才申請我們要一起努力不過現在兩個最大的問題這個都是你國發會也是我們國家定下的目標一個是發電量嘛餘電共生的發電量第二個就是魚不能夠餘電共生結果魚死了"},{"start":7868.633,"end":7889.147,"text":"電才來,甚至是於此的電嚴重的缺乏,少了非常多現在兩個目標,第一個你看,這都是你定的目標,113年跟115年你定的目標的達成率,不到一半,到了115年,這個是審計部最新的結算報告大家看一下達成率只有多少"},{"start":7890.168,"end":7912.268,"text":"你本來要達成的115年底的達成率是4428MW到目前為止只達成了22.52%你整個標準只達成了大概五分之一耶 連七成都不到耶所以主委 檢討兩個事情 主委你的目標是不是定的太高誤會 還是中間出了什麼問題"},{"start":7913.902,"end":7925.419,"text":"你大概一個月好不好 一個月檢討一下為什麼打成立省 老實講你也是要回應給省紀部的啦清潔波對應你的目標我不要用打臉 就是說這個落差真的太大了當初準備訂了 然後打成立差這麼多"},{"start":7929.683,"end":7945.701,"text":"這是漁業署定的目標漁業署經你們管我們來溝通漁業署農業部提上去你們定了這個目標我們跟委員一個說我們政府國發會定這個目標漁業署定這個目標竟然達成力不到七成發電量不到七成"},{"start":7947.122,"end":7960.527,"text":"不到三成 這是多嚴重的一個事情那第二個我給你 我找他們給你一個報告那一個月內給我一份報告這個你也要回給那個審計部嘛那另外就是很多魚都死掉了"},{"start":7961.858,"end":7976.428,"text":"違反了漁電共生的原則好不好這個也是非常嚴重的這個我是問過農業部長然後省紀部這次也講也是有七成都沒有達成這個魚的養殖也並同一個月檢討好不好好謝謝好我們現在接下來請我們謝一鳳召委來質詢"},{"start":8001.325,"end":8004.338,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要請劉主委主委"},{"start":8014.335,"end":8039.431,"text":"我想請教一下就是現在美國已經宣布了課徵百分之百的關稅對半導體晶片那其實我們知道很多的產品晶片不一定是它直接銷售它都是放在各項的產品裡面那未來就這些商品會不會"},{"start":8040.592,"end":8063.461,"text":"受到波及那如果受到波及的話剛才你說了可能我們的補貼或者是協助產業的預算可能要超過930億那你預估未來有可能是多少我們還要再投入多少來協助產業"},{"start":8065.473,"end":8083.66,"text":"其實我們這個是我們只是做一些準備就是我剛剛提到的我們是樂觀但是我們在做備援方案的時候我們要有不同的劇本這個是我們的準備項目之一至於會不會發生"},{"start":8085.919,"end":8108.874,"text":"我們很難去預期但是如果它真的發生會有很巨大的影響會有很巨大的影響那這個還是要看這個實際狀況所以如果含晶片的產品那美國沒有在這一次的就是232的裡面把它豁免的話對於這個整體的產業會有很大的影響是不是"},{"start":8109.514,"end":8124.138,"text":"那產業現在如果沒有辦法留在台灣你看到我們現在在台灣目前的關稅是20%日韓是15%會不會這些廠商他們會移轉到日韓去做相關的生意這個是不會的現在的20% 15%都不含這些產品這些產品是在豁免清單"},{"start":8134.921,"end":8144.461,"text":"那它如果會發生它只有一個可能它放進了232來做規範但是一旦是232的規範那就大家都會一樣"},{"start":8145.396,"end":8170.691,"text":"所以如果放在232裡面日韓的也是一樣的都一樣所以都不會受到相關的那第二個事情也跟委員報告因為台灣這種屬於這個部分的大廠幾乎都在墨西哥跟美國在佈局中那其實大家都有做很好的準備"},{"start":8171.86,"end":8201.309,"text":"是在美國跟墨西哥對現在是在達拉斯在墨西哥都是那我們也知道美墨之間的各種的協議裡面都沒有觸及到這個USDNA的部分所以呢事實上在墨西哥還是受USDNA的保障在那即使到達拉斯也是也是在美國境內那所以如果他按照這次晶片的方式來做的話我們這幾個大廠大概因為都在"},{"start":8201.989,"end":8229.255,"text":"美國境內也有投資所以影響就會比較小好那現在美國要求就是不管是要求也好暗示也好就是希望台積電能夠多投資那但是我不是以你就公司利益的角度來看這件事我是就國家未來經濟發展的角度來看這件事情未來我們怎麼樣子"},{"start":8231.315,"end":8258.108,"text":"讓台積電的優勢能夠留在台灣因為我們知道目前不管是AI產業以及其他相關你們規劃的發展都是在這樣子相關的基礎之下你怎麼樣子協助台積電讓最關鍵的技術留在台灣能夠讓下一個世代的這樣子的一個產業發展不會受到影響"},{"start":8258.948,"end":8288.284,"text":"你有什麼樣子的策略委員您問這個題目是非常非常重要的一個題目所以我們第一個我們兩件事情第一個我們在審核的時候我們對於關鍵技術最新技術我們不會讓它優先出去以台積電現在往1.4奈米的方向在走的時候它的廠目前的規劃都在台灣所以現在2奈米也在台灣其他地方也還沒有"},{"start":8288.884,"end":8307.252,"text":"所以關鍵技術我們是守得住的第二個部分它的研發有一萬多人那幾乎百分之九十幾以上都在這裡除了製程的部分以外都在台灣那關鍵的領導團隊也在台灣總部也在台灣所以基本上是絕對守得住的"},{"start":8308.339,"end":8322.779,"text":"那投資來講的話目前台灣的再建工程正在進行建設的廠也是最多的遠遠超過六個廠遠遠超過在海外的部分所以這一點我們是很有信心的"},{"start":8323.547,"end":8345.448,"text":"好那你要有信心可是问题是现在昨天就新闻就是做很大嘛就是东京的威力科创他对于我们台积电的2奈米的金属可能在某一些制程上面都是独家的制程嘛"},{"start":8345.908,"end":8372.681,"text":"可能它的光容機的那個光阻塗布啊或者是它的電晶體製成的溶科等等這都是這個台積電兩奈米的這樣關鍵製成那問題是未來怎麼樣子如果台積電跟東京的威力科創它進行訴訟會不會影響到目前我們在日本的投資呢"},{"start":8373.741,"end":8402.131,"text":"會不會這個跟在日本同時是我認為是沒有關聯性的那你講的是一般來講很多企業在進行輸送中還是會進行交易因為這是兩件事一個是針對兩個部門的事情那日本的確在特用化學等領域是全球領先的地位那其實半導體產業本來就是很多第一合在一起的我們是製造第一"},{"start":8402.731,"end":8421.096,"text":"他在化特用化學是第一那當然還有像ASMO的光刻機是第一那美國有很多的第一是兜起來的本來就是兜起來的那我們從國家的產業論性這也是我們之前有報告過我們會強化兩塊的發展一個就是特用化學的發展一個是設備的發展"},{"start":8422.316,"end":8436.839,"text":"所以我們台灣的特用化學我們想要往這裡進行突破那特用化學目前有一些我們分大廠小廠大廠大部分都比較目前是偏向後段製程的化學以走純度為第一"},{"start":8437.6,"end":8460.81,"text":"那現在有一些小廠已經開始在太空化學進行發展因為這些人都有一定的關鍵技術所以我們也一直在往這個方向來輔導那另外在設備部分我們也希望提高我們的自治率我們的目標是希望在八成以上所以我們一直在往這裡發展讓我們的整個韌性的提升會比較完整第二個一個帶動產業的發展跟更多的經濟的發展"},{"start":8464.605,"end":8492.192,"text":"那這一次的就是說關於他的那個機密被竊的這樣事件會不會影響到整個兩奈米的佈局會不會應該不會兩奈米的佈局目前只有在台灣不會有到日本目前他也沒有兩奈米的佈局他之前是在七奈米六奈米左右點那個範圍內那是二廠但二廠現在是延後了"},{"start":8493.012,"end":8504.662,"text":"那整個兩奈米佈局目前只有在台灣在高雄那下一個世代呢預計應該會在也是在台灣在中部跟南部各一目前都在規劃中了"},{"start":8506.789,"end":8528.475,"text":"好那最後我想要請問你就是說我們還有傳產的出口這個部分我們剛才講的都是半導體以及科技業的相關的產品出口那傳產的出口呢那對於傳產的出口我們知道現在對美的這個部分影響很大那怎麼樣子協助廠商"},{"start":8529.898,"end":8550.114,"text":"我們協助廠商就是我們編列的短期因應方案就是在出口的協助包括他的保險他的運輸等等我們與協助之外那我們也協助他進行研發的改造讓他的這個讓過去比較比價格的可以進到比"},{"start":8550.885,"end":8577.239,"text":"比那個技術的部分那中長期的部分我們也在AI十大建設有一個產業AI化裡面兩個重點一個重點就是三個重點第一個重點就是產品的AI化讓它的跟這個競爭會提升另外就是在它的運作流程供應鏈上還有在銷售上面都是透過AI化來協助他們來做所以我們才會有一個"},{"start":8578.74,"end":8596.772,"text":"AI運用百萬家的計畫出來希望讓大家透過AI的方式發展那我們也會給予適度的協助在經費這些方面讓他們再轉型在中長期的部分那也就是為什麼我們在中部推動那個推動這個智慧精密新核心的原因在這裡"},{"start":8597.54,"end":8615.48,"text":"我們希望政府可以持續的推動整個AI的轉型然後協助這些傳產企業能夠讓他們的產品在國際上更具競爭力才不會受到現在這一波的關稅以及匯率的影響 好不好好的 謝謝"},{"start":8634.984,"end":8644.066,"text":"現在請張家俊委員做詢答 張家俊委員不在 張家俊委員不在現在請陳昌明委員做詢答主席 現在首先有請國會我們劉志偉"},{"start":8665.516,"end":8687.385,"text":"陳委員早 劉主委早 身體有沒有比較好 有沒有壓力很大有沒有壓力很大 我討一討 拜託你拜託很久了 他就沒時間跟你記名這是桃子苗大矽谷計畫 還有苗栗縣石石溫的基金目前苗栗縣政府的用地評估已接近尾聲"},{"start":8688.926,"end":8713.779,"text":"現在就是來中央機關要協助但是當時是行政院核定你們提送的那目前苗栗縣政府有三塊的產業用地後龍的產業園區沒有問題它的主管機關就是經濟部那投入交流報那個投入科學園區裡面它是經過都市計畫變更應該也沒有問題"},{"start":8717.517,"end":8729.842,"text":"現在最大的問題就是在自然科第二期的科學研修裡面,那是非都市計畫,這裡面我們一直跟國科會一直聯絡,他不願意來當主管使館。我在這裡,我要特別請我們的劉子維,你再來幫我們協調一次。"},{"start":8741.687,"end":8762.515,"text":"協調一次的話,是看國科會要認,還是你國化會要認,還是由苗栗縣政府來認來當為主管機關的開發,不然現在到底要怎樣來決定這些而且這些計畫對苗栗縣的繁榮、發展跟進步是非常非常重要關鍵"},{"start":8764.127,"end":8774.958,"text":"我特別拜託你出面一遍 看你講的什麼其實我出面一遍過 我想看看 再想看看因為這個你都想得很久 我想說你怎麼因為這個科學園區 它只有國會會可以來做那產業園區就比較多元了"},{"start":8784.648,"end":8807.361,"text":"那科學園區在國科會的考慮點是說因為它科學園區做出來以後也要有人願意進駐嗎?我相信很多事情都有變通的方式可以那只要我們來協商一下,不然這樣後天所以我們要安排很大,已經宣布出去了,大家都在期待之中"},{"start":8808.522,"end":8832.933,"text":"好不好我們不要講困難我們要講如何解決困難的問題因為我們當初我們在整個桃竹苗大西湖計畫並沒有指明這塊地只有在這個區嘛你再講一下我聽不太清楚我們當時抱怨的桃竹苗大西湖計畫是有說到要在這裡做在這個區做但是並沒有講是這塊地或是哪一塊地也沒講時間點"},{"start":8834.693,"end":8856.193,"text":"那所以國科會的想法就是說他的地要一塊一塊的有人買他租他才會慢慢的租出去他要確定有那他才會考慮來做那第二個他們過去他們現在的做法因為他們都會因為這個要經過都更會很久尤其那裡是農業保護地那他們大部分都會找現成的地來進行"},{"start":8859.056,"end":8865.859,"text":"所以這是我們第一次協調的結果沒關係啦,我們再來想想看好,我們再來想想看,我們選一天好,我來討論好,我來解決這個問題,這樣好不好好,我拜託再來,我要跟你請教因為關於232條款晶片跟我們的電子的產業的一個計畫那現在關稅調到100%"},{"start":8888.871,"end":8911.096,"text":"原則上現在我要問行政院到底知道川普的要求是什麼?行政院說這個企業的投資不清楚不清楚說你們去問那個投資的公司台積電他最清楚你剛好是台積電的董事我第一個問題要跟你請教"},{"start":8912.856,"end":8931.646,"text":"台積電已經在美國投資1650億美金現在川普在說的是再追加3000億美金還是追加2000億美金這個是追加還是包含了1650億說得清楚我們可以了解台積電的問題台積電又導致所引起的一個對台灣的影響"},{"start":8937.582,"end":8953.871,"text":"這個部分台積電已經回應了台積電已經回應了嘛他的回應就代表公司的回應嘛你也知道當初台積電是沒有回應董事是不會去不能亂講靠發言人來講那發言人他們的發言回來"},{"start":8958.433,"end":8968.905,"text":"我想他們之前已經很清楚表達就是用他們到目前為止是1650億你台積電的董事是台灣的代表在那邊連你都不懂你們在說我們要怎麼相信我懂的就是1650億嘛"},{"start":8974.298,"end":8985.811,"text":"多少?就1650億公告的數字你意思,我是立法委,我不是經濟部長經濟部長說這個施政要給你修例到底是多少錢,要多少多少現在還不知道你們如何去談判"},{"start":8991.784,"end":9010.6,"text":"你是國安會主委,你是台灣最重要經濟的一個操盤手你不知道,我看整個台灣政府都很...委員我知道的就是1650億,這是的確...好啦好啦,你做官的人說,所以我永遠不相信這個政府連這樣就不敢說出來,到底是不是...經過董事會也是經過公司公告的嘛多少多少說嘛,讓台灣人會知道嘛"},{"start":9018.659,"end":9033.093,"text":"這是的確啦 目前我知道只有到這啦因為因為因為是講出來怕傷到臺灣的心還是怎麼樣這個實在是誠意很大這個沒有好什麼隱瞞的這沒什麼好隱瞞的我真的覺得沒有好隱瞞的"},{"start":9035.134,"end":9055.247,"text":"這裡面現在又有一個說出來台積電要跟英特爾要結合在一起那你當初回答我一句話柴油跟汽油不能合併但是可能會提示這種要求英特爾占51%台積電占49%這個情形你也不知道再上一次你國化會主委不知道這個政府就亂套了"},{"start":9063.035,"end":9078.829,"text":"委員是這樣我們在上一次的時候呢很早就傳出來那時候傳出來呢事實上是一些投資界的人傳的聲音那這個台積電也有去查證那所以這個部分我們並沒有被討論過了"},{"start":9081.251,"end":9086.614,"text":"現在有出來在這個方式在出來喔但是我們不能因為媒體的任何風聲"},{"start":9110.51,"end":9135.984,"text":"不是,這是因為很重要的事情我正是說你有兩年人蓋過問題簾,這樣你都不知道,疑問三不足這政府要怎麼叫我取信於民到現在時間已經是坦白關鍵的時刻了我跟你報告的是事實事實你說我不知道,我也沒辦法真的啦,這真的是事實啦沒有,這個事情是媒體登的包括你有"},{"start":9137.478,"end":9162.372,"text":"至少在我們沒有討論過啦好啦好啦我相信你啦我希望沒有啦再來今天你回答了一個問題那現在232的條款裡面你說台灣的競爭力很強不用擔心我們232條款100%不用擔心台灣很安全你要學習"},{"start":9164.879,"end":9171.967,"text":"其實大家最環繞的就是232條款電子產品我們的晶片"},{"start":9173.499,"end":9194.849,"text":"量子件那一些,你如果說不用煩惱,我現在想起來,所有都說對等關稅還不是最重要台灣的主要產業是在232條款裡面,你說不重要,我不曉得你信心從哪裡來委員我是針對晶片的部分,針對晶片的部分回答啦"},{"start":9195.848,"end":9215.841,"text":"那晶片的部分的確我們最主要的晶片廠商的確他在美國有設廠第二個不是我們100%是全球都100%我知道全球都有你覺得在做人家也在追大家都一樣你還講了說投資如果是1650億美金加3000億美金共同導致4600億美金你說他美國的產量才佔全球的6%"},{"start":9225.988,"end":9250.879,"text":"你相信川普的野心那些嗎?川普的野心是要全部掌控那個清偏的美國要做老大他能指揮一切只有戰略方式他就能滿足我怎麼演什麼幻想我都不曉得我講的是說到2029年這三個場因為當時大家你應該就了解2029年川普卸任了沒有?"},{"start":9252.179,"end":9256.143,"text":"針對當時大家在評估的時候我想各個業界都有評估過了那個量真的沒有很大我們只是想告訴大家台積電主要投資都在台灣"},{"start":9272.499,"end":9286.808,"text":"我告訴你主要的投資在台灣他的資料現在這幾個廠蓋完了他不蓋因為台灣的電力不夠他不敢蓋我們要承認一些事實這是他們內部的消息給我們的"},{"start":9288.007,"end":9307.073,"text":"所以說要往外蓋啊往外蓋美國的所有投資4600億對台灣有沒有幫忙委員我們都有跟台積電定期在會議對於所有的新廠需要的電力有些話你們不敢講包括道路我們都有在每個月都有在談他也已經了解台灣的電力不夠你們要相信這一點不要對台灣人只講好聽的話"},{"start":9316.291,"end":9344.423,"text":"我不會這樣喔,這的確我們在開會裡面我們對每一個廠的需求我們都在滿足啦所以到目前為止,台積電的計畫並沒有改變我是不怎麼樂觀,你們現在在共同說好聽話好,再來一個問題,你是台積電的董事二耐米台積電洩漏到日本去,只有一天的新聞星期三,今天星期四,所有新聞都沒有在"},{"start":9345.812,"end":9361.786,"text":"這很夭壽我看起來他是從台積電離開到日本公司上任叫做一家叫做TA他是半導體廠設備第三名他來切起這個機制到日本"},{"start":9363.298,"end":9377.416,"text":"那個晶片的團隊叫做REPITAS他是國家隊喔日本的國家隊做到那一邊說7月18號2奈米他們已經試做成功啊"},{"start":9378.391,"end":9402.914,"text":"你們每天都在說台灣的肥大很多現在日本的間諜也不少我看台灣已經千倉百棟載人去了我很奇怪如果是你台積電的董事你應該關心台積電這個事情怎麼今天連報紙的新聞都沒有還是日本人很會做公共的關係還是台灣政府開始在引入他這一塊"},{"start":9404.997,"end":9426.431,"text":"你跟我說 2奈米已經被拖出去 台灣政府都沒有出聲是因為日本到日本不敢出聲還是怎麼樣委員我先跟你報告他當時成立的時候是購買 就是選用IBM2奈米技術"},{"start":9427.598,"end":9451.365,"text":"那是IBM的兩奈米技術是賣給它的那第二個它的製程跟我們的製程是不一樣的我們是一個產品頭片可能就是一萬片五千片它其實廠產能只有五千片我們大部分都是五萬片以上那它為什麼只有五千片它是走客製化它可以每一片都不一樣是採用HITOUCH之前的技術"},{"start":9452.105,"end":9471.79,"text":"你說日本團隊是怎樣因為我跟這些人也算熟悉你怎麼很相信日本人講的話每一片不一樣除了做軍用他不會想擴展他的聲譽為什麼他要來拖起我們的二耐民你們都說好聽話"},{"start":9473.967,"end":9486.738,"text":"除了一天在罵對岸的連中國 日本這樣的情形連屁都不敢晃連講醫生說話都沒有 新聞整個封鎖起來我感覺得國家永遠就是三重的標準在我說日本美國也很恐怖捏他要你什麼就是絕對要你捏"},{"start":9496.672,"end":9519.88,"text":"這個我有要求台積電要做什麼進行檢討然後這個來做一定的管控那目前他的偵測技術至少這個是他主動偵測出來那台積電這個部分還是很強的啦二奈米被拿過去啊你台灣的競爭地位日本也是會很強的我們的燃料要很多從那邊來的設備從那邊來的"},{"start":9522.381,"end":9532.034,"text":"他慢慢走轉的話就載你臺灣您就很樂觀的看我這個生意是誰該想你競爭的呢有一個很難的您不要以為他們就對你好"},{"start":9533.567,"end":9554.239,"text":"有一個很難的是他做出2奈米他的良率能不能穩定在最高的良率那個是我其實我告訴你ASML的荷蘭那一家公司還沒有美國通用公司還有那個TEL三家半導體設備的廠商他們不會改進啊"},{"start":9557.864,"end":9582.276,"text":"其實給人家看了就知道我媽媽到底在想什麼我跟你講做設備的他一定會了解我怎樣去改進到最好這些資料過去了你們還在替他掩護我不知道我們的心態是什麼啊覺得政府很奇怪連鄂賴銘的技術外泄出去了你們只有看鮑達福的設備那一關難過你們每次拿它都沒關係"},{"start":9588.988,"end":9605.516,"text":"你們都沒有緊張的心理我們國科會都很認真的來參與調查不夠認真啊我看今天的報紙都沒有寫現在大家都很清楚了要是中國大陸大概要炒上一個月啊現在那在執政黨的都不敢講話我沒有看到一個人問真的真的"},{"start":9615.959,"end":9630.178,"text":"我很奇怪 你等一下問啦你在我後面啦 邱志偉你問一下為什麼鄂耐敏的機師已經外流到日本了台灣都沒有發聲只有一天的新聞第二天的新聞全部紅手"},{"start":9630.919,"end":9648.897,"text":"奇怪不奇怪委員你可以這樣看一個投手至少要五種三種以上的球路他看了一種拿書看就可以投職棒嗎其實沒有那麼簡單不是書看了就會而且他只看到一部分因為台積電是切割很多段你都聽他們講話這是事實台積電的保護就是這樣做的"},{"start":9655.987,"end":9661.629,"text":"因為這樣你們又替人家講話你為什麼說他的製程他不一定會學會日本比台灣人還笨嘛你們敗為偶像的國家什麼會比我們笨所以你們這個就是這樣阿拜台灣其實給你們這台都沒用謝謝"},{"start":9695.603,"end":9706.693,"text":"現在請邱志偉委員做詢答謝謝主席 請這個劉主委劉主委"},{"start":9717.631,"end":9723.861,"text":"今天台股早上大漲600點最主要的利多因素是什麼"},{"start":9724.942,"end":9751.915,"text":"主要是這次的晶片的這個關稅對我們比較有利為什麼會比較有利因為我們幾個大主要的像台積電中美晶在美國都有廠那我們也有些像聯電在美國都有合作那再來這個部分是全球一致的稅率就像我們是零關稅所以我們是零關稅其他國家沒有設廠的或者沒有設廠計畫的就可以百%對看一下它的原文"},{"start":9753.629,"end":9778.849,"text":"它是針對chip大概100%的這個稅率chip跟semiconductor晶片跟半導體對不對所以半導體你是這個裸晶片還是相關於半導體的相關的產品它也沒有說明清楚您從這張文字來看它的原文來看"},{"start":9779.773,"end":9799.75,"text":"它是chips還有semiconductors對 它有semiconductors那個的話就可以解釋的比較寬一點只要你那個IT中央產品裡面有包括這個半導體有包括晶片這些算不算它chips是明確的定義第二個是半導體相關的像晶圓這些"},{"start":9803.342,"end":9821.585,"text":"我認為應該這個我們還在查證那理論上應該是在Semi-conduct如果只有CHIPS那當然比較簡單對不對中美金然後聯電那麼都是不管是先進製程或成熟製程中美金不是CHIPS它是Wafer的但是因為它也在它就算有它也在美國都有設廠"},{"start":9822.981,"end":9842.754,"text":"所以股票市場的反應解讀就是我們針對這些CHIPS部分我們獲得關稅的豁免 零關稅其他國家要100%關稅所以今天股市才大漲600在某些產品上 台積電相關的成熟製程跟先進製程都有那如果半導體的話你怎麼解讀呢"},{"start":9844.755,"end":9864.482,"text":"半導體的解讀我想這個還是要去這可能要看一下美方的定義因為一般來講它會有一個定義在後面因為它還沒有正式公告這是它的預公告它的正式公告參加記者會所做的一個口頭說明它的正式公告會針對Semiconductor它會有註解"},{"start":9866.903,"end":9879.38,"text":"然後他大概是100%大概是100%對不對對所以這個我們後續觀察也是很重要對這次這個國會有沒有談判代表"},{"start":9881.652,"end":9905.334,"text":"國會的成員有沒有參與所以現在是暫時限制關稅20%那當然日本跟韓國也經過暫時限制關稅然後最後再降到15%越南也是你要搭配投資搭配開放市場大概用這種方式所以才從20%降到15%那你看一下"},{"start":9906.134,"end":9935.414,"text":"這個日本跟韓國的整體的GDP跟我們對美國的貿易利差來看日本GDP是台灣的大概五倍對那韓國也大概是台灣的兩倍兩倍多雖然我們對美國的貿易順差大概739億日本對美貿易順差685韓國660差距也不大但因為我們GDP的規模分別是日本的五分之一韓國的二分之一"},{"start":9936.254,"end":9959.304,"text":"那如果用台灣跟日本韓國的經驗來看韓國要投資五千五百億然後韓國要三千五百億之前我們有行政部門官員說四千億他已經有澄清過了那個是澄清過的不管是用國家的預算去購買或者是我們開放國內市場等等我認為"},{"start":9961.192,"end":9970.233,"text":"我們降到15%的機會是蠻大的而且我們開放或者是採購的金額啊應當不至於比照美國比照日本跟韓國因為你從GDP的水平來看"},{"start":9973.066,"end":10001.955,"text":"跟人口數來看韓國人口是台灣的兩倍對 也是2.2倍2.2倍是台灣的五倍對所以整體的影響經濟規模不一樣所以你用同樣的標準去看這個我用傳適能來判斷應當是不至於有那麼高的金額我的看法跟委員接近那我們唯一就是說我們的出口金額跟逆差是稍微不那麼高多了也沒有多很多跟日本韓國也沒有增加很多大概多了"},{"start":10003.325,"end":10028.396,"text":"50億左右當然這個我們希望說盡快最終的這個會不會簽協議就是說台美之間針對關稅會有最終的協議因為美國跟日本是沒有白紙黑字協議是沒有白紙黑字所以沒有白紙黑字會造成說它的有效性的問題或者執行性的問題"},{"start":10030.083,"end":10058.134,"text":"沒錯 因為他有之前川普有說過他會看你的執行表現對 因為他是一個動態的所以沒有白紙黑字白紙黑字是一個正式的協議它有在有效的執行的期程或者在執行的程序但你沒有白紙黑字不管是日本或者是南韓到目前談的最終的稅率都沒有白紙黑字那台灣是不是也是如此呢這個我就不清楚了"},{"start":10059.844,"end":10070.573,"text":"我想韓日都是這樣子我們大概也是這樣子所以會造成說未來執行面我們還值得去觀察因為沒有白紙黑字做一個基礎"},{"start":10073.36,"end":10090.31,"text":"另外,不管是匯率或者是關稅的不確定性,扣建產業是相當的辛苦。台灣以前是扣建產業全球第三大生產基地,特別是在我的選區在岡山入竹。"},{"start":10093.174,"end":10107.052,"text":"所以是一個全球最大的螺絲生產基地之一我最近聽到很多扣薪業者跟我很多抱怨就是說第一個匯率的影響第二個關稅的影響對他們這個不僅沒有辦法賺錢而且還虧損虧損到沒有辦法繼續經營下去"},{"start":10112.56,"end":10139.587,"text":"也逼得也許要外移這種情況我們對國化合會有很大的期待要協調各部會能夠比照我們大概三年前在疫情的時候對扣接應的協助包括貸款的展延或者是新增的融資貸款協助產業周轉資金面很大的問題"},{"start":10141.073,"end":10143.168,"text":"他沒有銷售就沒有收入嘛"},{"start":10144.813,"end":10170.541,"text":"所以這部分我期待是不是國會能夠見急旅急能夠針對這些跨部會的需要協助的部分能夠來國會來召集會議不管是經管會或者經濟部這個我們來努力看看我想也表達一下我想委員應該也看到我們總統跟院長很在意這個產業多次帶著經濟部去跟業者溝通經濟部長"},{"start":10172.521,"end":10185.732,"text":"日前也才跟業者又有座談那我們會找經濟部來看看他們有沒有什麼樣的需求就像如果是貨款等等重點是座談之後要拿出具體的做法讓產業能夠繼續穩定繼續成長"},{"start":10190.035,"end":10204.149,"text":"後面的做法就是要由國發會來統籌這個座談的結論然後去執行提出可行的規劃跟方案去執行嘛是不是這樣我們去瞭解我們來努力看看"},{"start":10205.276,"end":10228.686,"text":"所以包括有專業雜誌他有很多的政策建言他去針對台灣目前十大產值可能會萎縮最大的十大產值的產業包括這個傳統製造業他產值要萎縮大概2500億衝擊大概兩萬家的廠商而且這兩萬家的廠商都是中小企業都集中在中南部 對不對"},{"start":10230.982,"end":10251.976,"text":"這種需要政府相關的作為來協助的部分包括涵蓋四大的策略十一項作為這些作為 這些期待都是業界座談所提出來的訴求我期待這部分是不是可以請國發會能夠針對這些企業界所提出來的訴求提出這相對應的方案"},{"start":10252.74,"end":10269.957,"text":"來整合可不可以提出相對應的方案讓業界能夠安心因為經濟部已經提出來了在分工上面因為這個地方是分在經濟部我們在中長期的所以我們是協助轉型的部分我們會一起來做"},{"start":10270.638,"end":10298.662,"text":"那委員有這個要求我就來找經濟部談一下因為我一直期待說國會應該是財經小內閣來整合相關的財經部門應該是國會的這個執掌嘛因為你們在宏觀調控的能力嘛那你經濟部也許不能指揮財政部但是你國會可以站在這個宏觀經濟宏觀調控的角度來看去可以協調相關部會我是覺得應該國會要扮演更積極的功能"},{"start":10300.066,"end":10325.471,"text":"我們來努力一下 因為這個有一個分工那我們會來按照委員的指示我們來努力剛剛有委員提到就是說台積電的技術外洩當然技術外洩我們當然很慎重來看這個關於先進製程的我們的這個機密當然是非常重要特別是二奈米當然這個是很專業的那畢竟這個技術外洩這是一個事實沒有錯嘛"},{"start":10327.884,"end":10340.668,"text":"是一個事實然後它的外洩的對象也是一個確定是的那台日我們是期待台日半導體能夠合作如果是這樣子的話變成一個惡性競爭的關係"},{"start":10344.299,"end":10364.728,"text":"會不會讓台日過去半導體的合作方向會造成一些影響甚至對台積電這個二奈米製程的競爭力會不會或者後續的營收會不會有相關的衝擊我想台積電這個公司有這個責任向董事會做個說明"},{"start":10366.504,"end":10393.906,"text":"我們在下一次董事會他們會針對整個案情進行說明因為目前還在查證調查中那目前從我的角度來看他檢調進來了然後國科會進來了那已經在整個安全性是止血了那現在是要把他的動機跟目的那這些人的背後的動機跟目的是來自於誰那目前必須查清楚才能確定"},{"start":10394.767,"end":10422.649,"text":"那我們也不能說現在就去就會把他指向是哪一個哪一個國家哪一個那個最後一個問題就是說我們會讓檢調跟好那個問題我想這個國安會或者諸位你也持續關注後續的這個處理情形另外這個先進製程我比較不擔心就加上有今天記者會他所說的承諾他們所說的承諾但我比較相對關心相對擔心的是成熟製程說實在大概在中國大概他"},{"start":10423.49,"end":10448.415,"text":"可以掌握百分之五成的這個成熟製程的市場所以台灣也有很多成熟製程的這個廠商對不對那成熟製程我看這個百分之百的關稅豁免呃 課金百分之百的關稅是針對中國是劍指中國我認為啦劍指中國什麼成熟製程這成熟製程它佔百分之五十趴的這個市佔率"},{"start":10449.676,"end":10477.458,"text":"因為這個中國的陳同志也沒有在美國設想過你要輸美國 你就扣百分之百台灣有些陳同志人有有些沒有對台灣陳同志人也會造成影響我想陳同志也請國安會先去做了解今天早上就有因為要來這裡所以我已經傳訊息給到工協會我們希望他們再評估看看"},{"start":10478.238,"end":10498.306,"text":"因為我的從直覺來看Global Fungi會占到一些優勢那如果誰跟他有一點客戶衝突的話那他這個評估我們希望他盡快評估出來那其他的部分的話我們也請他們評估因為在第一次的討論裡面大家是認為只要大家都一樣長一樣的話影響力就沒有那麼大"},{"start":10498.986,"end":10516.573,"text":"委員在扣減業也有聽到如果大家都50%的時候我們扣減業就還算比較擔心反而是匯率的問題對不對所以我們現在正在收集這個部分好 謝謝現在請賴世寶委員做詢答"},{"start":10535.182,"end":10539.138,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請國務會的劉竹偉劉竹偉"},{"start":10547.514,"end":10568.187,"text":"主委你說這個川普總統說要對晶片課百分之百的關稅你說對台灣是大利多這就我覺得很奇怪課100%的關稅成本增加100%咧晶片廠跟他們就100%對不對你說今天股票漲不要忘了台積電漲了55塊"},{"start":10576.206,"end":10590.937,"text":"台積電漲一塊錢我們的加錢指數漲8.61所以基本上主要是台積電以及其他你剛剛提到中美金有在美國設廠的那些的工廠他們股票漲"},{"start":10592.287,"end":10600.995,"text":"其他的股票不漲啊 就跌啊你要仔細看一下啊怎麼會整個是大利多呢我怎麼知道大利多從何講起啊怎麼會一個大利多大利多是說他有在美國設廠當然是零關稅當然是大利多對台積電當然是大利多其他沒有設廠的呢請問你啊 你知不知道我們半導體總共有幾家你知道嗎"},{"start":10616.906,"end":10637.815,"text":"我講的是利多那利多主要是因為我們主要的產值在是有限的是在這些廠商就是有在美國設廠當然是利多不是零關稅別人是100%當然是利多可是那些沒有去的廠商你告訴我現在有幾家的半導體廠商在國內你知道嗎國內現在半導體廠商有幾家半導體廠商的話"},{"start":10644.437,"end":10663.874,"text":"我沒有細數過了大概大概應該有10家以上吧不是啦全部半導體產業跟半導體有關係的跟半導體有關係的那就太多了Supply chain都在裡面啊就太多了三四百家啦就業人口多少你知道嗎"},{"start":10665.308,"end":10678.637,"text":"三十幾萬啦 三四十萬的就業人口啊2023年的資料半導體相關的產業 包括Supply Chain跟供應鏈加起來 307家就業人口31.7萬人主委啊 我是替你煩惱啊"},{"start":10686.814,"end":10690.256,"text":"這三四百家都可以去美國設廠嗎都有這個條件嗎他都像台積電這麼資本這麼雄厚我到處設廠每一家都可以嗎啊這些沒有去的人一百趴勒"},{"start":10700.743,"end":10703.224,"text":"他賺了超過一百趴嗎?我兩塊錢賣四塊錢賣五塊錢他厲害我有報告過我們有兩個方案一個是短期方案一個是中長期方案短期方案是應急的我們編列930億以上的金額來做這件事那我們這個主委我更關心的是什麼?你聽我講完啦"},{"start":10725.959,"end":10751.989,"text":"就業人口三十幾萬因為這是2023年的資料現在應該是三十幾萬我最擔心是我替我們下一代擔心你知道嗎這個台積電機設廠馬上少掉幾萬人的這個工程師的就業機會美國去多少委員你這是一個錯誤的訊息台積電在國內的設廠更多所以台積電現在招募的員工一年超過八千"},{"start":10752.509,"end":10769.808,"text":"他並沒有讓工作消失你不要跟我計程車講我不要講台積電我講其他產業不是只有對台灣增100%是對全世界每一個競爭對手都是付一樣的錢所以怎麼樣就跟計程車一起漲價一樣不是啊對我來講我們我管其他人我賺不到100%我現在去哪裡要加100%除非我去美國市場"},{"start":10774.193,"end":10802.294,"text":"我沒有去美國市場我就加一百趴我懂我啊我們現在我們在這裡啊現在主要是跟競爭者打道的我們現在正在評估像Global Boundary在美國有廠等等我們去了解他我們現在正在了解他但他絕對對啊我關心的我再強調一遍我們下一代的優秀的工程師的就業機會因為都要去美國才零趴啊對不對你一百趴大家都一百趴我趴了一趴趴他厲害"},{"start":10803.775,"end":10807.936,"text":"你現在隨便講一家國內的廠商他的獲利100%以上你告訴我哪一家你告訴我哪一家連台積電都沒有台積電的獲利毛利只有50幾%而已他還沒有100%啊你給他扣100%的關稅他活不下去啊我還是要講喔因為多數廠商還是以FOB為主買方在付錢"},{"start":10827.782,"end":10844.354,"text":"台積電當時希西威也跟我講過如果今天有關稅他會要他的客戶來負擔誰關稅都客戶付美國人付你可以去問希西威他自己講的我只是轉述這個話你要這樣子投了我再強調一遍我再強調一遍台積電的毛利只有5成多50幾%很厲害了他也沒有100%"},{"start":10857.103,"end":10862.848,"text":"它今天是因為在美國設廠所以它後面料呢 大力多 很好大家鼓掌 它也在美國設廠可是300多家相關的Supply Chain它沒有都要扣100%你不要忘了它剛剛有委員提到了CHIP跟其他的Semi-conductor的相關的產業的產品當然 細項沒有出來但是基本上要炒蛋啦"},{"start":10883.644,"end":10888.088,"text":"沒有一個產業賺一百%的啦你說跟其他世界其他國家比大家也都沒有一百%啦我活不下來啊 我活不下來啊在這裡啊除非我這美盤能夠轉移給別人報我付美國報我付嗎川普報我付這一百%的關稅嗎"},{"start":10904.413,"end":10909.257,"text":"這個都要去寫 阿如果是美國的話阿美國就不用他阿川普就這麼費工川普弄了半天結果他來付100%跟他去賣這個邏輯 主委阿這個阿這個你不要張口來講就這樣 謊話連篇怎麼會說美國幫你付 哪裡有美國幫你付美國幫你付這個錢 跟他去賣我只是就我的專業分析喔我也就我的專業分析 我來自產業啦我來自產業 我來自產業"},{"start":10932.854,"end":10939.079,"text":"我來自學界我跟廠商都有溝通過我跟廠商有溝通過很多廠商的老闆說我學生咧不用說這樣啦你講整包我跟你講除非就事論事我一直跟你強調你都不回答的問題我是說現在去美國市場的沒有問題"},{"start":10957.233,"end":10985,"text":"他沒有去的人 他沒有人力去的人怎麼辦100%水庫你剛剛跟我講說川普要付啊你川普在那邊靠啊我沒有講川普要付你說FOB啊FOB齁 他們都是買方要付這個都 業界齁過去都會經過協商因為每一家公司的巴跟泡不一樣所以他會經過協商第二種 我們有短期的因應方案去協助廠商降低成本"},{"start":10985.76,"end":10990.103,"text":"那對手因為也是漲100%我現在告訴你你不要講對手你現在系統壓降你看歐陵隧道我沒有系統壓降只是我把事實做分析我也跟你講事實假如我是這個相關企業的老闆我賺不到100%"},{"start":11013.336,"end":11026.161,"text":"你都假設這100%都要台灣的企業付的前提下講這件事情因為你來自學界我來自產業我可以告訴你產業絕對會去協商協商過去他並沒有這樣美國的富豪 按照川普的民客啊川普都沒有收關稅了川普現在多plot"},{"start":11039.211,"end":11047.356,"text":"說多麼驕傲的說我扣關稅已經扣了一千多億美金如果都是美國人的包袱他為什麼講這話"},{"start":11049.625,"end":11074.905,"text":"那為什麼要講這個話對不對 來這個我看下一頁我請教一個 今天其實更重要的主題在這裡主權基金你是主管單位對吧主權基金我不是主管單位是喔 怎麼不是 你Google一下國安會是主管單位喔我們只是只是現在在評估負責評估而已那你什麼時候可以把草案送到行政院"},{"start":11075.95,"end":11104.466,"text":"我們現在正在訪談幾個主要的國家的主權基金因為它這裡面非常的複雜我們必須很慎重的處理大概給我們時間表什麼時候可以送到行政院我們的我們目前的看法就是我們寧願做很好的準備而不是有時間表那我們現在正在排到幾個國家去拜訪請教他們他們的做法是什麼因為他必須今年底有沒有可能出來草案出來有沒有可能今年底"},{"start":11105.416,"end":11131.529,"text":"我們還要一層一層的上報這個看看這樣的準備夠不夠但是我跟您報告很重要的就是他如何能夠被監管的情況下又有自由的外界高度質疑非常大外界高度質疑你這個主權基金為什麼原來民進黨政府是反對的突然同意了因為主要都是要投資美國送過去美國那裡好最後一點我要跟你講一個東西川普講的"},{"start":11133.254,"end":11161.194,"text":"那是我們美國的錢啦日本對美國5500億所以我給他15%歐盟6000億南韓3500億美金那是美國的錢就很像職棒簽約的簽約金那是他的money結果我們為了拚面子我們為了跟韓國日本一樣拚5%我們每年賣到美國只有1160億"},{"start":11164.063,"end":11173.288,"text":"很多了省5%省60億美金為了省60億美金外面外傳要給4千億美金所以台灣他要台灣這個對美投資4千億美金這是extra的喔這是extra不算在這裡面的喔你怎麼講這個數據我不知道從哪裡來的所以我沒辦法comment媒體都在講4千億換5%變成15%那怎麼樣變15%"},{"start":11192.694,"end":11196.017,"text":"我是覺得20%就亂了不要審這個東西我沒辦法對未經證實的數據來做comment這個主委這個我再跟你強調喔"},{"start":11205.56,"end":11230.521,"text":"我再跟你強調如果你剛剛講是對的說我們都有辦法轉嫁的話川普不必課這個稅啦所以我剛才講企業一定會去商量不是這樣子啦我剛剛用的是商量我就跟你強調這個日本五千五百億歐盟六千億南韓三千五百億川普說那是美國的錢那是my money"},{"start":11231.431,"end":11233.632,"text":"美國的錢是美國的錢所以不管台灣投資多少都是他拿走的我們為了就拼這個我覺得0月20%就20%吧其實20%衝擊很大啦你現在來講什麼大利多我來聽聽我們說的那些在美國市場的"},{"start":11254.059,"end":11272.488,"text":"一個這個晶片廠也好半導體廠也好是利多但是沒有受得人以及對我們下一代的就業機會是很大的傷害我跟你講到這一天謝謝謝謝委員有些地方可能也許彼此有誤解我下次再跟您報告謝謝好謝謝現在請李昆城委員做詢答"},{"start":11288.401,"end":11289.849,"text":"謝謝主席 那請劉主委劉主委"},{"start":11299.134,"end":11320.681,"text":"委員長主委好今天早上四點半美國川普總統開了一個記者會他就說要對半導體開徵百分之百的關稅除非在美國有設廠不然就是要課百分之百的關稅因為台積電在美國有設廠所以好像大家就認為說台積電已經獲得豁免了"},{"start":11322.762,"end":11336.555,"text":"那主委也認為是利多那看今天的股票這個也到目前為止漲了500多點台積電也漲了大概有50塊左右啦那我是想請問一下主委台積電有真正確定獲得豁免嗎"},{"start":11339.039,"end":11358.603,"text":"因為這個是川普今天的announcement並沒有美國政府的正式公告那我的瞭解都是會以正式公告為準但是如果就川普的說辭的話台積電其實是豁免的因為台積電其實十幾年前就在台積電現在有在美國設廠那他就說要設廠或是承諾要設廠都可以獲得豁免"},{"start":11363.504,"end":11386.539,"text":"那台積電一廠也蓋好了嗎?已經在測試中嗎?好,那這個是指說在美國設廠的部分那台積電在台灣更多廠啊對,更多那有獲得豁免嗎?主要是因為它在美國有設廠按照川普的說法或者是有計畫要設廠的都會得到豁免對,我的意思是說那台積電在台灣的廠也同時有獲得豁免嗎?"},{"start":11390.441,"end":11418.429,"text":"那是一起的 一起的那些它是對進口的關稅的部分好 有確定齁那這個部分其實佔台積電進口的大概只有1%啦好 那我就確定啦就是說就是在台灣的在美國的都獲得豁免就對了對對對好 那再請教一下齁那因為晶片通常會組裝到這個成品出來再送到美國去那這部分組裝的用台積電的晶片組裝的這些下游的產品有獲得豁免嗎"},{"start":11419.929,"end":11429.002,"text":"他目前是針對晶片的部分那組裝到成品去的並沒有還沒有在他的公告範圍內還沒有嗎好那請教一下那個主委因為"},{"start":11433.284,"end":11459.274,"text":"這個台積電它這個晶圓設計部分在我們半導體的產業鏈裡面是屬於中斷的嘛中油部分那上游包含這個IC設計那中油我剛才講的就是有晶圓製造那下游這一個封裝設施那我就是要請教一下那主委啦就是說現在的除了台積電的晶片因為在美國設廠有獲得這個豁免但是呢包含它的上游中游下游這些產業"},{"start":11460.154,"end":11486.888,"text":"那是不是還現在還在談判當中還受到這一個美國的這個232條款的影響還沒有確定他這次川普是講到chip跟semiconductors那正常的情況下是他在他們的正式announcement會針對這些字眼定義含哪些會公告出來那現在還沒有確定對那等他的公告就會明顯就會清楚他指的是什麼"},{"start":11487.868,"end":11511.451,"text":"那所以目前就是我講的這些上中油的這些產業都還在這個232條款的影響的範圍裡面就對了還沒有確定哪時候會知道也還不知道因為它自己先公告嘛是它的公告那之後美國的商務部會公告嘛那目前他們的關稅勒"},{"start":11514.461,"end":11538.391,"text":"關稅 我們現在您是指哪一部分的關稅就是說這些半頭體的產品的關稅目前這個部分就像他一樣他會等正式的公告他現在是announcement嘛要等到他政府的正式通知他有一個生效期然後還有他含的他的chips跟這個semi cup那所以就是說上游中游下游的這些產品都還沒有確定就對了要看公告的正確性"},{"start":11539.511,"end":11559.973,"text":"那我再請教一下 其實我們的自通訊顯卡伺服器這些在美國出口的 出口到美國的這些產品佔這個百分之大概78左右啦那這些產品對台灣的廠商來講非常重要那現在的關稅也還沒有確定嗎還沒有確定 那目前這些產品還在豁免清單內"},{"start":11562.415,"end":11569.809,"text":"但是他會不會在232這個現在還沒有確定還沒有確定那我們現在是把這些跟我們現在對等關稅一起來談嗎"},{"start":11571.734,"end":11589.377,"text":"我不清楚有沒有一起談因為我沒有參與談可是我看行政院是有講要一起談抱歉我可能沒有注意到這個這很重要我也不知道這個我的印象就是說因為現在8月7號好像等下12點了對等關稅20%就生效了那我們認為說我們的談判團隊說這個是屬於暫時性的關稅接下來會跟232條款受到影響的這些我們資通訊的產品會一起來談應該是這樣子吧"},{"start":11601.412,"end":11619.4,"text":"如果是這樣的話會對產業比較有利啦不是不是啊你不是團隊的一部分嗎怎麼變成是我在跟你講然後你再回答我說如果這樣談的話這個會比較有利就是行政院給我們的訊息是這樣子啊是暫時性的關稅會跟232條款受到影響的這些產業"},{"start":11622.581,"end":11635.312,"text":"綁在一起談希望說能夠一起談 談出更好的關稅沒錯 我是在表達這樣談是對產業會比較好可是你剛才給我的回應我覺得你好像不知道說兩個是綁在一起談的這個問題就很重"},{"start":11640.035,"end":11655.285,"text":"因為這個在比較高的層級談啊不是啊 那就算比較高的層級談這個我也不是談判代表但是我看行政院的相關的資訊我也知道說目前是綁在一起談的啊這主委你這樣的回應讓我有點意外耶我想"},{"start":11660.14,"end":11688.31,"text":"但是我們現在最主要是因為主要是明天會有一個記者會他應該會說明那最後我再請教一下好了因為現在日本跟韓國都對美國有投資日本投資了這個5500億美國投資了這個3500億那我就請問一下那接下來的這個232的條款我們有辦法取得比談判有取得比日本或是韓國更好的一個稅率嗎"},{"start":11690.063,"end":11695.617,"text":"因為還沒有投資這麼多了我認為應該是我們現在是中間稅率到20那"},{"start":11699.42,"end":11727.097,"text":"只會往下降按照不論是泰國、越南、日韓的談法都會往下降所以應該至少會到跟日韓一樣吧至少我認為了那我也還是跟你抱歉我沒有參與我知道啦那就是說你認為說這個按照這個外國的這個談判或是日韓的談判最後都往下降了你認為最後我們也會關稅也會往下降我目前的暫時性稅率看起來"},{"start":11728.078,"end":11746.447,"text":"也沒有比對手來講是好啦比這幾個國家來講是好的我再請教 最後再請教主委齁我目前這一個齁 安全任性這個特別條例啦齁這個其中是930億是用在這個支持台灣的出口供應鏈那750億是用在工業 180億是用在農業"},{"start":11749.108,"end":11774.915,"text":"但是這是在關稅還沒確定之前你們的這個特別條例是這樣子安排的那我想請教一下主委因為現在20%的暫時金關稅還在談然後232條款你也還沒有確定那就國發會立場來講這個930億有沒有必要再擴充有沒有必要再增加這個規模預算因為這樣看起來它沒有特別用在我們的這個資通訊產業這邊"},{"start":11777.912,"end":11802.949,"text":"目前這個是針對所有的產業對啊那如果是我來看的話我比較主張的是我們用滾動式來調整看它的變動不是因為這裡面它現在已經滾到關稅都出來了我就說就國發貨幣上有沒有必要在930C再增加因為我看來它沒有特別針對會受到70%外銷到美國這些自通訊產品的這些影響"},{"start":11805.503,"end":11830.115,"text":"這個其實是很難做一個評估但是當然你就這種協助性的東西當然是越多越好但是還要考慮到國家的財政嘛當然啦我是說你們有沒有去我們可以依據這個執行的狀態來做一個就是20%確定之後有沒有要再做調整那這個調整呢是原來的條例裡面因為現在是條例過了預算那預算它這個930億你們還可以再做調整"},{"start":11832.737,"end":11843.293,"text":"然後呢是這樣在原來通過條例裡面做調整呢還是要送一個新的條例出來然後把這個受到關稅影響的這些預算我們再增加目前行政院做法是怎麼樣"},{"start":11846.372,"end":11867.267,"text":"因為行政院做法目前是因為這個當時是考慮到不舉債狀態那另外第二個事情是當時是32%評估現在已經20%了所以目前來看的話理論上應該是還足以支撐理論上還足以支撐但是我們232也還沒有確定232對台灣那些資通訊產品影響很大如果232如果有影響到台灣的資通訊"},{"start":11875.117,"end":11889.754,"text":"那這個金額我認為是需要再增加的但是那個是一個很假設的前提下那可是你們沒有去設想好幾個模組嗎?這個情況一、情況二、情況三到底是怎麼樣嗎?"},{"start":11891.315,"end":11920.275,"text":"這個是有的喔因為我們在8月1號的會議裡面院長有指示就是說我們要重新再評估各種現在新的版本那各部會都在進行中啦都會彙整到那所以會再提出新的特別條例出來嗎還是就原來的預算裡面再做調整我現在是問這個方向啦如果有動應該只有金額的部分那就看各部會提出來的有沒有改變就是在通過了條例的下面那預算再做調整就對了"},{"start":11921.751,"end":11940.162,"text":"因為這個東西 這個還是在行政院做最後的拍板不是 你是國發會國發會也是很重要的這個可能您可能因為我們這次把這個層級拉得很高拉得很高以後呢那相關的部會就會參與到那裡面去就有那個比較高的層級不含國發會這個這麼高的層級不含國發會就對了"},{"start":11944.039,"end":11971.36,"text":"因為國會本身沒有資源去做那當然你是你類似一個幕僚的一個單位對對對對啊所以那我們在分工上面我們負責中長期的部分就是在這是短期因為那中長期是由我們來負責所以在中長期部分我們有規劃了雙金字塔的一個我知道這個其實我都有看過相關資料短期沒辦法一定影響到中長期的那我是希望說這個"},{"start":11973.061,"end":11992.566,"text":"等一下12點28%的正式性關稅就生效了那接下來還有232條款這個行政院要先做好準備啊好不好 是的 是的好 謝謝主委好 謝謝好 謝謝現在先做宣告我們中午不休息 延長開會時間王洪威委員質詢結束休息10分鐘現在請呂毓林委員做詢答"},{"start":12004.457,"end":12008.14,"text":"謝謝主席 請劉主委劉主委我延伸剛剛的問題在我們這次的特別條例裡面我們是用32%關稅相對的關稅的32%來做這個特別條例所以現在關稅已經降到20%了所以應該是足夠來應付這次的關稅的問題"},{"start":12034.241,"end":12041.085,"text":"對不對雖然說有232條例的這個其他產業會影響的話我們是另當別論事情發生了我們剛剛主委也特別提到說232條例如果有影響的產業產業自己也會去談我剛才聽得很清楚是不是這樣子我剛才講的是說剛才是提到半導體產業那這個百分之百的關稅由誰負責"},{"start":12060.285,"end":12063.586,"text":"會影響到產業 不只是半導體 不只是晶片啦可是有去投資的 豁免關稅是一定會豁免的啦大家會去談 怎麼來分攤 還沒發生其實這些問題 很多問題都要問經濟部啦經濟部不來 只好叫你來了那我們就聊聊吧"},{"start":12080.373,"end":12095.12,"text":"那主委目前川普對我們這個關稅已經宣布說是20%了那賴總統第一時間也開了記者會說這是暫時性的稅率請問主委這個暫時性要多久啊我不是那麼清楚要多久但是我至少我知道以你的判斷評估呢我很難去預測啦因為"},{"start":12110.624,"end":12124.992,"text":"很多事情不掌握在我們手上是主委我剛剛也有聽到你講說這個關稅就是川普他們單方面的宣布而已並沒有實質跟哪些國家有白紙黑紙的簽約是不是"},{"start":12126.074,"end":12139.2,"text":"這個是目前來講的話我們看到的訊息是這樣是這樣子的話那所以就要看表現你剛才講說要看表現那表現的話就像現在已經宣布了日本跟韓國他們的關稅是15%日本韓國是我們主要競爭的國家對不對"},{"start":12145.615,"end":12173.924,"text":"他們這個15%還有附帶條件要投資5000億、3500億嘛 是不是那現在我們外面尼克拉斯州你不承認這個4000億的問題但是已經一直喊從2000億美金、3000億美金已經喊到4000億美金還不知道川普願不願意投資這些金額就可以給我們降低所以我們的目標是不是盡量努力就是要降低到跟日本、韓國一樣 最起碼"},{"start":12175.273,"end":12188.424,"text":"才是我們在競爭力上有個持平的點我想大家都會朝這個方向在努力有15%我們就已經很高興了對不對那現在 主委那現在我們現在談到15%的話你認為我們有什麼空間籌碼跟他談"},{"start":12194.105,"end":12212.692,"text":"主要還是跟委員報告因為我沒有參與到這個談判我說請你的評估因為你是國發會你可以橫跨各部會整合調整各部會的資源來幫助度過這個關稅問題啊所以我才問你你又整合了這事情這麼久了四月份到現在"},{"start":12213.692,"end":12230.299,"text":"八月了 要八月了這個時間裡面各部會整合一下相對應的要應對的有沒有戰略性的建議的合作的這個價值在那邊還是說我們各部會有什麼相關的這些可以支援可以來對我們產業的幫忙不要讓我們產業受到這麼大的衝擊你應該有嘛"},{"start":12234.201,"end":12254.12,"text":"沒有 這次是一個比較重大的 所以都在院這邊在整合啦那我們都扮演 我們的角色是資源的角色 而且我們分工在中長期的規劃啦那我們就專注在中長期的規劃 因為短期我們資源在各部會那各位 中長期的規劃裡面 有沒有看到我們台灣要做哪些讓步"},{"start":12259.655,"end":12276.549,"text":"我從中長期來看我們是看到要去轉型啦要重新佈局啦那企業需要去轉型所以我們編列了一些計畫舉個例子我們AI十大建設裡面就有很大的一塊協助企業進行AI轉型把產品你希望國內的需要的市場能夠再擴大"},{"start":12282.633,"end":12308.498,"text":"國內來供應就夠了還有國內趕快要走到AI我知道AI這個是我們下一波必須要做的事情所以這個我們已經計畫要執行的部分不只這樣還有開拓新市場像現在工具機有一個很大的新市場在印度那還有一塊也不算小的市場在土耳其那我們也要協助他們往多元化的去發展市場所以這個我們"},{"start":12309.878,"end":12322.774,"text":"我們台灣是出口導向的國家那人口是很重要的我們台灣多少人口2350萬人口對美國多少人口印度多少人口大都多少人口這就是很需要的一個問題對不對是的"},{"start":12325.057,"end":12346.536,"text":"就是我們出口的導向的問題就在這邊這都是國發會你要先未已從某看到這些問題要做了準備功夫所以我才會問你說你有準備我們有什麼地方的讓步提到說4000億美金的投資這是我們最大的讓步嗎還是我們可以承受更多承受到哪個程度你有評估過嗎這個是我們有專業的專業評估過嗎國發應該要知道的"},{"start":12352.912,"end":12373.66,"text":"我們就是扮演資源的角色啦是啊 所以問你我們的資源夠承擔這個未來要讓步的地方嗎投資的地方我相信我們的前線談判的團隊應該有做好前線談判也是一個團隊一個團隊包括你們啊你們提供給他資源啊我的承受度可以到哪裡對不對 我的資源可以到哪裡"},{"start":12378.499,"end":12400.241,"text":"四千億還是只能到三千億這你沒有提供給他他是有談判籌碼跟底線對不對你沒有底線你怎麼談呢我們的籌碼不會我想不會只有那當然所以我要你評估嘛你今天只能做評估的角色告訴我們讓國人稍微有個底啊對不對因為我沒有參與我沒辦法評估我知道你今天講很多遍了好"},{"start":12401.363,"end":12429.059,"text":"我要請問這個籌碼跟這個能力部分主委你沒辦法評估我相信在一個團隊裡面都要提供這些資料給我們談判的人他們才有辦法進一步去談來來回回因為現在沒有簽約啊美國完全看我們的表現啊這個表現就是你們要去談啊才能表現到他滿意嘛所以主委剛剛有提到啦"},{"start":12430.615,"end":12441.461,"text":"因為我們現在是出國導向的國家那現在我們看到經濟景氣你一直說經濟景氣不錯沒有錯啦在二月份的時候我們還是紅燈到現在四月份的話已經變成綠燈那你看看這個關稅的情形下來的話我們會不會變成藍燈啊"},{"start":12450.64,"end":12462.462,"text":"你有沒有看到這個你就要評估囉我們這個我們是有評估啦我們是看兩個東西齁這個是落後指標啦我們領先指標來看的話是有下滑的現象"},{"start":12463.393,"end":12484.131,"text":"那當然這裡面會因為充滿了不定性嘛那最後還是要看談判的結果會影響到如果15%的話就會反彈了因為在不定的過程中我們如果從整體出口來看會變高的原因是因為從現在你看我們的圖表已經知道了啦從2月份一直下滑到現在啦"},{"start":12484.511,"end":12503.001,"text":"就GDP的評估我們大概估計在1到1.5還會再下降嗎你估到會再下降它是會有成長但是不會到6點多整個經濟的成長率我看這個3%是太過於樂觀了下半年會比較趨緩所以根據我們中經院在7月17號公布我們經濟預測"},{"start":12511.266,"end":12532.422,"text":"也有做出同样的这个评估尤其是我们的这关税战已经影响到国际这个体系整个经贸的一个模式尤其世界各国针对这个关税的成本的上升也可能引起全球的通货膨胀所以诸位这个整个经济的成长率的你们可能会下修吗"},{"start":12533.723,"end":12546.269,"text":"經濟成長率我們原來預估是用3.1預估的那因為我們上半年到6.67那你剛才講說會下修一點多了那個下修是下半年的部分所以全年我們還是維持在3.1"},{"start":12549.95,"end":12569.605,"text":"現在已經要下半年了對下半年有可能到1到我剛講到1到1.5之間所以上半年6.67兩個加起來的話我們現在還是在很有信心在3以上但我們還是在所有的政策都在力保3.1的目標不變"},{"start":12570.598,"end":12575.46,"text":"是 諸位我們現在看到我們的關稅雖然從32%降到這個20%是有階段性的一個成果但是我們最主要跟我們有競爭的國家它的 我們還是比他們高在這種情形之下我們應該要整合各個部會的資源來對於整個我們關稅會受到衝擊的一些優勢的地方來做一個調整那譬如說像剛剛講的這個晶片"},{"start":12600.011,"end":12605.296,"text":"台積電在美國了在美國所以他可能豁免了那其他國家呢聯電呢還是立積電呢他們如果沒有去美國投資的他們會不會受到很大衝擊這方面你都要去協助他們更加的有這個競爭力整個狀況你都要去了解 好不好那讓我們的整個經濟不衝擊的地方可以"},{"start":12623.612,"end":12638.991,"text":"讓他們更得到一些保障或者是說在我們整體的這個貿易受到挫折的時候這個低迷的狀況我們可以度過這個難關這都一樣不是台積電而已我們很多在研發這個高製程的一個研發單位他們都會面臨這個問題"},{"start":12642.295,"end":12656.006,"text":"我們這次也有預算去協助他們他們又不去投資不是每個都要投資我們不能逼企業出走台積電已經被你們逼走了我希望後面的不要被逼走我們怎麼樣協助他們度過這個難關好不好我們一定會協助企業度過難關的謝謝委員好 謝謝現在請王鴻薇委員做詢答"},{"start":12674.448,"end":12676.431,"text":"好謝謝主席請劉主委劉主委"},{"start":12685.889,"end":12709.264,"text":"主委辛苦了主委剛才呂一林委員有問您就是我們今年的經濟成長率能不能保三因為在你們的報告裡面因為當時半導體的稅率還沒有公布那現在美國對國外的半導體稅率公布所以基本上你們還是維持你們報告裡面今年經濟成長率能夠保三嗎"},{"start":12711.607,"end":12726.063,"text":"是的我大概第一個主要是我們上半年已經到6.67了這個我知道在報告裡面有的所以我只要一句話就是今天基本上主委願意代表政府你們還是會今年的經濟成長率全力保三嗎"},{"start":12730.127,"end":12752.887,"text":"會 因為下半年還有Apple的那種手機拉貨槽還有NVIDIA的GB300的拉貨槽所以覺得還有百分之三以上還是有希望今天在美國公布半導體稅率因為它的附加條件只要在美國有投資或者你承諾投資都可以豁免的百分之百"},{"start":12753.988,"end":12768.624,"text":"那立刻在股市也做了反映台積電大漲像鴻海大漲像因為台積電跟鴻海在美國都有投資可是就如同剛才很多委員所說的我們看下一頁"},{"start":12769.705,"end":12776.411,"text":"有很多的大廠其實都沒有在美國投資到目前為止所以譬如說聯發科、瑞玉、華邦電、矽創當然還是不止這些公司而已所以對於這些台廠的影響100%的稅率事實上是不可承受之重"},{"start":12792.526,"end":12800.074,"text":"所以他必然出現一個趨勢也就是迫使台灣的這些半導體相關的廠商他必須到美國去投資不然他就沒有辦法豁免那百分之百嘛那這就會出現一個我們過去也非常擔心的"},{"start":12813.035,"end":12816.477,"text":"台積電到了美國我們說他變成美積電但是事實上在今年初川普上來之後就有一個趨勢我們現在是沉篡沉重的好一起到美國去考察"},{"start":12828.564,"end":12831.427,"text":"所以當時就會非常擔心台積電過去還不夠整個竹科恐怕都要搬過去因為確實我們來看確實很多的廠商陸陸續續比如廣達、和碩、仁寶、微創"},{"start":12844.62,"end":12866.967,"text":"英業達等等都陸陸續續的從去年底開始就有設廠的計畫或者是設研發中心的計畫而且這樣的趨勢會是一直持續所以作為國發會主委來說對於未來我們的高科技電子產業特別半導體的部分"},{"start":12868.123,"end":12874.171,"text":"主委 你擔不擔心不只台積電要過去整個竹科也會搬過去"},{"start":12875.643,"end":12903.981,"text":"对我们来看第一个厂商只要是跟流台湾的做全球布局这个倒不一定就是一定坏事我们比较担心的是像当年很多中小企业是整个把台湾关掉搬走的我们会比较在意这一种但是以目前这个趋势来看我想您大概业界也会听到很多的企业都有在讲到美国生产的成本是比较高的"},{"start":12904.961,"end":12926.414,"text":"所以大家都是針對美國市場去做移動不是針對他全球的市場做移動第二個業者也會開始在做全球其他市場的佈局所以第二個事情我們在開始擴大的內需的方案裡面我們像AI新十大建設就會發展更多的新技術然後擴大國內市場的需求"},{"start":12927.535,"end":12930.757,"text":"所以就半導體產業來說半導體產業來說國內的市場還是非常小我們已經佔了全球的四分之一那台積電更多將近七成之多那當然我們有我們的優勢"},{"start":12944.247,"end":12967.555,"text":"所以台積電其實百分之百對他來說他就是有優勢但是並不是所有的相關的產業鏈的產業他都有同樣的優勢所以我覺得這一點是我們必須非常非常小心的也就是不要變成整個竹科或者南科我們好不容易幾十年來的心血因為這一次美國對半導體產業科百分之百的關稅"},{"start":12970.616,"end":12974.138,"text":"把我們的根都已經把它剷除了這點我希望在我們整個的未來的因應裡面一定要把這個考慮進去另外第三個問題其實主委剛上任的時候曾經對核電其實你並不排斥但是整個的政府的氛圍使得你們必須改口"},{"start":12994.967,"end":13008.912,"text":"823就有一個核酸研議的公投當然我們會全力的來推動所以我想請問主委作為一個專業性你剛講你來自業界也跟業界有很好的互動我相信從業界來講沒有人會認為說核酸不應該研議"},{"start":13013.014,"end":13033.435,"text":"所以您同不同意如果核酸可以做演绎的话对于现在尤其我们高科技产业对于我们AI产业现在面对的新的美国贸易战的变局对于我们业者来降低成本跟留台湾是有帮助的"},{"start":13034.918,"end":13042.172,"text":"我現在看到產業比較找我討論的比較是他需要更多的綠電來因應他的R100或R150"},{"start":13044.517,"end":13068.111,"text":"那看起來台灣對綠電的缺需是比較高的目前的狀態所以確實核酸原液應該有幫助吧就永續的部分我們會我們事實上會我們大部分都是在協助多元綠能的發展包括在這個地熱的發展甚至我們也協助訂的氫能源政策"},{"start":13068.971,"end":13079.497,"text":"大概會我們希望能夠盡快的去滿足尤其是半導體業者對於綠電的需求那非常的急迫所以我們大部分現在我知道你還在迴避這個話題但是呢就台灣的這個這個能源的永續經營產業的永續經營其實台灣真的走在一個實質路口我覺得我還是會鼓勵我們的尤其來自業界的向主委還是能夠本於你的專業願意說真話"},{"start":13098.387,"end":13098.587,"text":"現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":13132.852,"end":13132.892,"text":"好,好。"},{"start":13158.235,"end":13183.582,"text":"三文治跟三文治"},{"start":13197.41,"end":13199.171,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":13221.774,"end":13232.441,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":13247.642,"end":13253.605,"text":"一切都是靠你為你獻給你獻給你獻給你獻給你獻給你獻給你獻給你獻給你獻給你獻給你"},{"start":13284.728,"end":13285.348,"text":"一絲桃花 一條花"},{"start":13316.184,"end":13322.634,"text":"我吃了"},{"start":13342.366,"end":13345.05,"text":"說真的,這個十大節,這是我最大的經驗。"},{"start":13372.651,"end":13381.754,"text":"要找情侶他有說他要皺眉所以他剛才出來跟我說他還好吧他對我對我很好"},{"start":13411.608,"end":13411.628,"text":"嗯?"},{"start":13442.193,"end":13452.415,"text":"嘖嘖"},{"start":13461.465,"end":13461.485,"text":"鞭筍"},{"start":13482.97,"end":13499.057,"text":"所以想說我帶船給你我想說這麼近我就趕快帶船起來所以有帶船給你船船不保證因為我們船船不保證老公你那個船船有測量嗎沒有沒有那你不要測因為我覺得訊息不太好"},{"start":13524.076,"end":13524.537,"text":"蜂蜜"},{"start":13531.977,"end":13534.418,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的中間餐廳"},{"start":13552.308,"end":13553.69,"text":"這邊找了 找不一定找得到"},{"start":13577.952,"end":13578.453,"text":"這裏是大廈的大廈"},{"start":13584.957,"end":13588.418,"text":"可以喔可以喔可以喔可以喔"},{"start":13616.794,"end":13621.918,"text":"中文字幕 李宗盛"},{"start":13668.181,"end":13668.922,"text":"這裏有個大廈。這裏有個大廈。這裏有個大廈。"},{"start":13712.615,"end":13722.322,"text":"开始开会现在请黄国昌委员做询答黄国昌委员不在现在请陈冠廷委员做询答"},{"start":13737.113,"end":13739.661,"text":"你好 我們請主委六處委"},{"start":13747.416,"end":13775.154,"text":"陳偉豪主委好今天我看到我們的這個專案報告裡面那有特別提到說在農業的地方你們在第三頁有提到說農業提出包含知識產業安利就業等等的九大面向等等措施那其中的知識產業的部分有提到農業金融的支持那還有包含工業產業等等設備汰換啊 汰舊換新等等那我覺得這些都是很正面的方向但是我必須要強調一件事情"},{"start":13775.854,"end":13800.006,"text":"那這次我們除了颱風之外然後接下來的水患那對台灣的這個農業影響非常大特別是對嘉義也是那再加上關稅未來的挑戰就是說農工上面整個嘉義縣都會遇到算是前所未有的挑戰那你是我們國家的總規劃師包含這個國發會也是他是要做跨部會的協調我想請教"},{"start":13801.527,"end":13820.296,"text":"當農民同時其實不只是農民有些農民他同時也是有一跟產業是有相關的農產業他同時面對天災跟外銷訂單的衝擊我們現有的這個援助機制譬如說天然災害的救助還有關稅因應的這些貸款在程序上面是不是有整合的空間來去減輕這個農民奔波的負擔"},{"start":13823.638,"end":13842.846,"text":"特別我要強調是在災後重建最關鍵的天然災害的低利貸款那我們第一線的農民其實遇到一些實際的困難比方說辦法要在15天內附上金額固定的估價單可是災後的廠商雖然他們很想要趕快去做相關的升級但是這麼"},{"start":13843.922,"end":13871.327,"text":"找不到這些物料的價格在波動然後短的時間內要拿到這樣子的一張準確的估價單確實是有它的難度在我想這中間的落差國發會是不是可以發揮它的協調的專長來去協助一個可以解決地方的好政策因為如果執行上面的一些小瓶頸那讓人民感覺到不便那就很可惜了不知道主委對這邊有沒有什麼初步的想法"},{"start":13871.747,"end":13898.511,"text":"委員這個訊息非常重要可以看到您也很關心這個民眾那我這邊會去找那個負責的那個陳金德政委我會來跟他探討是不是能夠簡化程序那盡快的讓人民不要這樣跑農民這樣跑來跑去我們盡快可以怎麼樣能夠讓他們簡化一些程序讓他可以盡快得到他應該得到的協助"},{"start":13900.272,"end":13916.85,"text":"謝謝主委 我們盡快齁 趕快協調一下因為程序的這個簡化對我們這些農民朋友他們現在一方面又要擔心可能下週下下週會不會又有西南棄爐然後又擔心說那如果上面的這些程序沒有完備那怎麼辦 會不會因此"},{"start":13917.69,"end":13935.135,"text":"所以這個部分我還是希望主委趕快去來協調其實過去我們有相關的經驗莫拉克風災的時候那個時候的政府就有把這個高度的彈性展現出來所以我相信因時制宜的制度把它變成一個未來的一個處置的方式我也會建議大家看看因為現在在台南的潛行指揮所是銅鑿廠商"},{"start":13937.996,"end":13964.692,"text":"對屋頂有三個價格讓民眾去選他就不要再去買菜了因為民眾自己去找很困難對就做好媒合的角色那大家就估價單也很簡易的就是你是哪一個也不要讓物價波動你就是三種價格什麼樣的服務就是把它確認下去所以我想說也許這個機制我也會請那個陳政委思考是不是把它放到加以來即時紓困上面那個主委謝謝你剛才的回應行政上面的彈性"},{"start":13965.532,"end":13984.353,"text":"那這個放寬這個申請訂金的時程壓力這些我還是一定要在這邊跟你反映那除此之外莫拉克的經驗是這樣子他這個放寬災損證明的認定那個時候的主管軍官允許因為事實困難沒有辦法取得官方所在證明的農民可以檢據照片"},{"start":13985.214,"end":14011.044,"text":"化智場處理單據等等的替代型文件就是這個彈性過去是有的那另外一方面就是他們有延長申請這個救助的這個期限那其實上次農業部部長來我們這個嘉義勘災的時候已經有談過也確實已經延遲過一次但是我想加上西南氣流的這一次在上週到上週為止都是那下週可能又有"},{"start":14011.784,"end":14026.467,"text":"那這樣子的狀況之下我是希望說這種延長救助的申請期限未來就我們在反應之前就可以先納入考量因為這是連續連續受災我們過去整個7月變成說整個7月都是在"},{"start":14027.208,"end":14052.635,"text":"救災然後接下來就是在辦理這些災害的救助甚至非常對於農民朋友來講是很大的負擔所以我還是在強調這個行政的簡化這個是一定要做的那也謝謝你剛才的回應那特別講到15天內附上這個金額固定的估價但這個是很多人反映的這個麻煩主委務必跟政委回去好好的演上好的"},{"start":14056.198,"end":14080.732,"text":"好 謝謝最後再補充一點這個我看到關稅上面的這幾天的變化因為它是起起伏伏我們我知道說今天這個半導體來講對我國來講那其實是一個算是比較好一點的訊息有些地方是得到豁免但是我還是要強調說我國除了科技業之外還有其他的工業農業那怎麼樣能夠規劃其他產業能夠"},{"start":14085.314,"end":14113.172,"text":"一同的往前走均衡台灣裡面很大的一部分就是不是獨厚一個產業怎麼樣把這些經濟上面的股市來分享給其他因為現在我們嘉義雲林台南高雄屏東很多農民他沒有享受到這個高科技產業的股市但是已經遇到這種天然的災害所以在稅率稅賦上面我們怎麼樣去做好的一個分擔讓急需受到幫助急需受到援助的這些災民農民朋友們"},{"start":14114.152,"end":14139.125,"text":"這是整個國家的發展藍圖這個地方我還是希望這一個國發會可以來好好思考一下怎麼樣把均衡把利益均衡這樣子好謝謝委員好現在請廖先祥委員做詢答好謝謝主席一樣麻煩請我們主委劉主委"},{"start":14148.258,"end":14162.38,"text":"主委午安就是美國在川普總統上任之後那就對於國際貿易的秩序有一個新的一個做法那我想先請問主委一個大方向的一個問題你認為這樣子無論是川普總統"},{"start":14164.162,"end":14188.747,"text":"請一些貿易對美國來說貿易逆差的國家來增加關稅或者是要擴大美國投資的這樣子的一件事情對於美國的這個經濟來看長遠來看對美國的經濟是好的還是不好的您認為這個是一個很難答的題目因為他有利有弊有利有弊就長遠來看"},{"start":14191.78,"end":14216.949,"text":"長遠來看如果用很長遠的角度來看對美國應該是好的可是在短期的衝擊會不會影響到長遠是一個值得觀察的可是我的疑問是說一個國家這樣子的貿然的去改變國際的貿易秩序然後對於廠商有這麼多不穩定的一個投資因素在裡面"},{"start":14217.55,"end":14220.022,"text":"那對於他的國家的經濟您認為這樣對他的國家經濟長期來說還是好的"},{"start":14222.532,"end":14249.418,"text":"現在即使在我們觀察美國的即使美國的經濟學者的看法也是會有兩極化就會有兩個面向那所以它還是一個因為有點顛覆很多過去的看法跟學術理論所以它變成一個是要必須要被觀察的其實商業行為尤其是大型的投資案其實大部分的人都是求一個穩定其實很多人在關稅例上面他其實都會認為說關稅幾%對他來說"},{"start":14252.379,"end":14277.982,"text":"他不是那麼的在乎只要是能夠接受範圍內但是就是要穩定不要早上一個政策晚上一個政策因此我認為在美國川普總統就任之後每天都有新的一個貿易政策跟貿易的規矩出來會影響很多不只是台灣中華民國而是全世界各個國家對於美國的一個投資他可能會抱持一個光榮的態度"},{"start":14278.742,"end":14305.627,"text":"他可能會對於在美國的投資他會放完腳步所以我都認為這樣子的一個不穩定性長期而言我會認為說對美國的經濟它長遠影響可能短期間內可以看到可能還要求一些企業去做投資短期內可能會有一些數字上會比較好看但是因為長期的不穩定性我相信對美國的經濟長期而言或許我認為是會不好的那在不好的情況下"},{"start":14307.878,"end":14320.564,"text":"就是在美國這麼樣的一個貿易不穩定的情況下那身為我們國發會的一個角色你會認為我們台灣的中華民國的企業持續的擴大對美國的投資嗎"},{"start":14324.18,"end":14347.341,"text":"如果您記得在2017、17、18的時候大家也是跟現在生活有點接近那時候我們每天都在跟我們的廠商在探討怎麼樣去面對未來跟解決那時候我自己學到一件事情就是你自己的競爭力在什麼程度會決定你會做什麼事情"},{"start":14348.121,"end":14365.47,"text":"當你很薄弱的時候是一種做法你很強壯是一個做法所以我在思考就是說未來的變局其實我相信也不是只有這一次我們也不知道什麼時候還有再來的變局就像我們剛才總統說的暫時金融關稅我相信川普現在的關稅對全世界每個國家來說"},{"start":14366.39,"end":14390.66,"text":"都是暫時性的我相信只要一個他不開心他就會挑啊都是挑戰所以我們反而怎麼去讓自己的企業變強還有我們的體質變好所以我們才會端出AI新時代建設希望透過這樣的一個機會不但是提升我們的體質第二個轉變我們的行業特性增加軟體的部分那也讓關鍵技術再增加"},{"start":14392.1,"end":14416.085,"text":"那我們希望透過這樣的方式讓整個台灣有一個比較大的體質改變當然就現階段而言美國確實還是我們全球最大的經濟體那也是我們許多自動汽產業現在應該躍升為第一大的一個出超國了這是一個出口貿易的國家了短期內我們確實是不能沒有中斷跟美國的交易但是我認為站在國家的發展長遠來看其實"},{"start":14417.905,"end":14441.864,"text":"你說川普這樣的很多行為很多人對他是非常憤怒但是其實站在川普的角度看如果說我們換到我們每一個人換到川普這個位置來看其實他也是站在自己的角度可能在為了自己的國家在爭取貿易上面更多的有利的一個條件每一個人的角度來看你要美國要拿的多那其他國家要拿的少美國更有利一點的條件那其他國家就去"},{"start":14442.544,"end":14458.564,"text":"你也是我覺得每個條件不一樣那每一個國家都是在為了自己的產業在做最好的政策的規劃那在這樣子的方向我覺得在未來啦你們國家在發展上面你們未來人會持續用以美國為最大的比如說你們未來在輔導一些"},{"start":14461.327,"end":14475.279,"text":"產業創立或是輔導產業在做國際貿易的時候你們一樣會把美國當作一個最大的攔子嗎還是你們會記取這一次的經驗你們會認為說全球貿易應該是一個分散化的一個一個分散化的一個"},{"start":14476.52,"end":14497.067,"text":"的態度來讓產業能夠分散風險我的主張一向是多元佈局因為在全球的進口的總額就每個國家進口的金額加總美國大概占18%左右大概還有82%的進口市場就是市在別的地方對我們來講是出口市場"},{"start":14498.507,"end":14521.063,"text":"所以我比較主張的是我們要多元步其實這個就是最近我們國家常常講的韌性其實貿易也必須要有韌性所以在未來或許說在過去一段時間因為政治的關係或什麼的關係我們過度的依賴美國但是我們現在也知道說每個國家都是以自己國家的利益為最大的利益在調整自己的政策那我覺得在國家發展委員會的立場那未來也希望主委可以秉持你剛剛所說的"},{"start":14522.484,"end":14536.456,"text":"就是一個分散化的一個概念全球平均的佈局跟投資讓我們的產業在國際的貿易上面更有韌性好不好 主委所以以上 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝現在請葉元之委員做詢答請主委 謝謝劉主委"},{"start":14557.957,"end":14584.908,"text":"主委您其實是有兩種身份一個您是國防局主委你也是台積電的官方的股東所以問到台積電這個問題的話我覺得你的角色是比較尷尬一方面你要配合政府政策另外一方面你要兼顧到企業的獲利所以我想問一下這個官方董事有關於台積電一些大家關注議題的一些態度第一個是昨天傳出來說川普希望台積電去增加投資3000億美金那最新的說法又變2000億對不對"},{"start":14586.269,"end":14601.254,"text":"那你的了解是怎樣我們的了解目前台積電沒有討論過這些事情台積電沒有啦那川普有期望嘛那是他的個人期望個人期望我知道你早有這樣講但因為下週就有台積電董事會你會去開嗎"},{"start":14603.619,"end":14626.778,"text":"我會去你會去 請問一下現在如果直接問你 在董事會裡面川普要求台積電多投資兩千億美金那不曉得你的態度 以及台積電的態度會是怎樣我還是要看台積電的分析啦那這種投資一定要分析嘛那分析利弊 分析所有的一切嘛那我等待他的分析啦但是會不會討論我也"},{"start":14630.081,"end":14652.442,"text":"至少應該沒有在議題內目前所以下週董事會不會討論到台積電要不要去增加投資這個議題我們沒辦法去會不會有臨時的議題但是至少目前我們沒有要至少目前是沒有昨天提出來那如果台積電還是要看台積電有沒有把他納入議題來討論"},{"start":14654.108,"end":14671.98,"text":"因為你也是董事之一嘛而且你又是官方的代表你應該不是被動對你也是有一些主動權所以才來請教你的態度我沒辦法在董事會跟他們講說聽到媒體川普有這樣講你要不要這樣做那如果按照主委這樣講法還是要由經營團隊來對他經營的現況的狀態提出評估"},{"start":14679.025,"end":14701.146,"text":"至於他要不要take這樣的想法也是經營團隊做出我們看到魏哲嘉董事長他講的最新的說法是說台積電目前就是投資1650億美金所以目前還是以這個態度那您是說下週沒有這個議題但是不知道會不會忽然間有臨時提案這目前您掌握的狀況這個是"},{"start":14703.649,"end":14709.156,"text":"謝謝那另外一個就是我早上有看到你發言你說即便是232川普的關稅加到100%你覺得也沒問題因為台灣沒有禁交利我沒有說一定沒有問題但是對我們的衝擊相較別的國家來看目前我們的衝擊是"},{"start":14720.189,"end":14743.518,"text":"還算是那是因為別的國家半導體也要100%的狀況他也是100%然後大家都是100%的狀況多數沒有在美國設置就是同樣條件情況之下你認為我們有競爭力所以不會是從競爭的角度我早上的說法是我們在這個業界我們是領先的國家我知道我還沒有問問題但是我的問題是說你現在是用競爭的角度在談這個事但問題是你今天可能會產生兩個問題第一個如果"},{"start":14749.782,"end":14750.204,"text":"232關稅是100%半導體是100%的話"},{"start":14752.677,"end":14780.689,"text":"那還是會壓縮到台積電的獲利啊還是會啊因為到時候品牌商有可能會叫台積電來分擔這個關稅所產生的成本嘛這是第一個問題嘛第二個問題是那產業他有沒有可能因為不想要付這100%他就直接就移到美國去這也是有可能那如果移過去的話會影響到國內的就業嘛其實還有第三個問題啦第三個問題就是那這個232其實他影響的不是只有半導體產業"},{"start":14781.829,"end":14805.604,"text":"他還有影響其他電子業那其他的電子業是不是如你所講的在全球都是這麼有都是那麼樂觀所以不曉得這個主委你是怎麼看待這個事情針對台積電的部分因為台積電在美國十幾年前就設廠了在奧拉岡州那亞利桑那的第一廠也也都蓋好了所以他"},{"start":14806.224,"end":14827.962,"text":"已經符合川普零關稅的條件所以今天台積電我剛剛聽其他委員的分享是股價的大漲因為它本身更具競爭力因為台積電關稅是零那當然台灣有一些已經在美國有工廠的那你這次這個過程看起來都有受惠啦"},{"start":14829.086,"end":14850.036,"text":"那另外對於其他廠商我想我今天早上也說明很多次我們其實都做過座談會我們當然那時候的關稅沒有到那麼高只是大家在談關稅是說只要是齊頭式的大家競爭對手也是拉那麼高的話他們認為就競爭的角度我們就所以主委對不起我們時間有限所以你認為說這個232關稅就算"},{"start":14853.277,"end":14879.236,"text":"再高其實對台積電或是其他廠商來說是有利的你的結論是這樣委員你這個結論是不對的因為你剛剛講說因為他們在那個美國已經有廠啦所以這不會影響它嘛我講的是叫相較喔我知道我知道當你都在100%的時候相較其他的地方但是我剛剛提的是它有沒有可能它有沒有可能就更增加投資嘛但是對台積電是沒有等一下我沒有講完喔就是說它有沒有可能會因為它"},{"start":14880.217,"end":14887.289,"text":"產業就直接移過去然後不想被抽太多然後甚至壓縮利潤嘛我剛剛講的是這個嘛你沒有回答嘛對我最後問一個問題你的台積電"},{"start":14890.396,"end":14910.241,"text":"因為那個工程最近有發生有工程師就竊取二奈米的機密資料那昨天大家在討論說是日本這個廠商日本廠商有一個合作的廠商是他們的晶片國家隊所以我不知道說我們現在政府包括主委您同時是國會主委您也本身也是台積電的官方董事"},{"start":14911.221,"end":14920.14,"text":"你對於日本有公司然後利用這種方式可能疑似得到我們的二代名的機密資料你的態度是什麼"},{"start":14922.558,"end":14947.803,"text":"我的態度是很清楚的第一個我們我第一個時間其實我有這個去通知這個台積電請他說明因為我們希望能夠從此把門關起來其實遇到問題解決問題比較重要那我們先把這個問題要解決掉把門關好那台積電看起來已經做好了新的各種的因為這是他主動偵測那現在他主要是"},{"start":14951.164,"end":14966.703,"text":"主要的原因他们也在解决那就政府而言检调出去之后国客会也进来依据国安法的部分都进来了那相关权责单位也进来了那整个背后的犯案动机可能要经过检调调查的结果了"},{"start":14966.883,"end":14982.617,"text":"我們現在可能很難影射說就是哪一家公司那看當事人的犯案動機經過偵查之後應該會有一個明朗的結果所以你現在的態度就是說先只有就是先防避不要再讓這個事情再繼續然後第二個是說減掉介入那政府現在面對"},{"start":14983.678,"end":15001.692,"text":"可能日本的公司他現在疑似竊取了我們機密那這件事情政府的態度是什麼我不是說針對台積電政府的態度很清楚這是一個國安的問題所以我們會引用國安法來處理但是因為你的意思是說因為國安法是針對我們內部嘛我現在是說政府對外因為這是日本的公司啊你們態度是什麼"},{"start":15002.574,"end":15020.354,"text":"我的態度很清楚你不要講說對台積電的態度或者是說對犯案我的態度剛才也講得很清楚我們必須偵查清楚這個當事人犯案的背後的動機他背後是不是一定是日本人其實我們現在是一個議程因為這是國與國的事情我們必須把事情查得很清楚"},{"start":15020.874,"end":15036.763,"text":"然後再來做決定那現在因為人都已經在都在剪掉的掌握上了他應該可以查清楚查清楚之後如果是牽涉到國與國你才會有一個比較強硬的態度出來是不是應該會依據事實來做決定啦好好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":15047.691,"end":15065.144,"text":"我們現在請蔡易餘委員詢答好 謝謝趙偉那我們是不是有請劉主委劉主委"},{"start":15075.848,"end":15086.805,"text":"主委那因為川普昨天又公布了針對半導體所謂100%然後有在美國設廠就不再豁免的概念但是這個大概"},{"start":15088.284,"end":15110.097,"text":"還不是很明確因為川普這樣的宣示但是相對比較明確的是8月7號已經上路的這個暫時性關稅那台灣就是20%所以我們看起來就是說對美國逆差的國家包括台灣是美國第六大逆差的第六差國家所以台灣在跟美國談判"},{"start":15111.458,"end":15124.61,"text":"當然可能要面對相對比較大的壓力他會希望台灣要釋出我們一些產品的進口的關稅的下降或者是其他的方式但是這個20%來確實有很多國人在"},{"start":15129.794,"end":15143.582,"text":"再比較就是跟日本跟韓國那跟日本台灣跟日本呢產品的事實上互補性比較高一點所以我們跟日本相對來說同樣在出口美國的我們的競爭競爭比較少比較少"},{"start":15145.623,"end":15172.669,"text":"但是相對的韓國就比較多了是的所以我想要請教的就是主委就是說韓國過去跟美國因為有FTA有自由貿易協定所以他們在於FTA的一個架構之下韓國跟美國之間有超過95%的商品是零關稅沒錯95%的商品那是過去的時代但是川普看起來他的這個對等關稅"},{"start":15174.229,"end":15201.658,"text":"他是推翻了過去的自由貿易協定是這樣的沒有錯那自然推翻了過去的自由貿易協定那台灣跟韓國過去在競爭上因為韓國有FTA台灣跟美國還沒有簽署了BTA或者是FTA那是不是台灣跟韓國之間過去應該就有所謂稅率的劣勢我們的廠商在出口美國的這一塊"},{"start":15202.858,"end":15225.913,"text":"就非科技產品式的非科技產品嘛在WTO的豁免清單裡面的話大家是條件沒有差異很大WTO這個架構之下大家是一樣的嘛但是在這個豁免清單在科技產品類以外的我們的確在稅率上面我們是因為它有FTA的優勢"},{"start":15226.721,"end":15241.327,"text":"它有FTA的優勢所以可能台灣過去有一些產品在在銷售美國的時候我們可能也會有課3% 5%幾%對不對那現在好現在又比較起來在對等關稅下韓國是15%那台灣是20%"},{"start":15247.52,"end":15268.895,"text":"我們差了這5%但是如果再把之前FTA的因素來做一個稍微扣掉多少事實上差的%數也許沒有那麼多甚至也許在過去可能台灣跟韓國我們被課5%以上的那會不會因為15%跟20%的差距反而減少了跟韓國的競爭的關稅的劣勢"},{"start":15278.11,"end":15305.908,"text":"目前我的認知是沒有啦沒有這樣的狀況目前是沒有為什麼呢因為它是增增加增的加增在那個既有稅率下加增所以我們現在的20%就在既有的稅率上加增再加增好那這一次我要問的第二個問題因為今天日本日本就忽然出了一個新聞說日本方面也去說哇原來他們的15%"},{"start":15307.788,"end":15330.653,"text":"是指以前低於15%的以前低於15%的就是以15%來計算那如果高於在以前他的商品是高於15%的那就不是15%還是用之前的一個關稅這是日本今天有這樣的一個訊息出來所以他們認為說這樣的話並不是所有商品都退到15%"},{"start":15332.939,"end":15347.705,"text":"那未來我們台灣的談判也是這樣的邏輯嗎我相信我們現在台灣團隊是很聰明的啦他如果有看到日本這個訊息應該會納進來做談判的討論因為這個訊息跑出來嘛因為日本已經發現說這個15%並不是所有商品一律15%他是指說過去是20%的雖然已經談到15%可是還是一樣用20%來計算"},{"start":15361.902,"end":15377.813,"text":"因為這時候很多是美國單方面因為他們主導談判嘛所以他們很多決策是他們在做在做決策但是在談判的時候剛剛講到的就是說這個部分我們台灣應該也要注意啊對我覺得這個應該我們會注意到"},{"start":15381.463,"end":15406.83,"text":"還是我們已經注意到了因為我們注意到是歐盟的部分因為歐盟已經有寫出來那有協議但是歐盟的協議是怎樣日本當時好像沒有協議歐盟是全部都是15%他是說原稅率高於15%的就不再加徵那原稅率低於15%的課15%那跟日本有點一樣因為他是加徵稅率的加徵"},{"start":15408.939,"end":15435.874,"text":"所以原稅這樣我還是不懂你剛剛說我們台灣如果原稅率是5%原稅率5%那在對等關稅之下是加徵台幣25是這樣嗎台灣目前是這樣但是等到談判的結果像歐盟這樣的寫法就變成是說舉個例子歐盟的做法就會我們20%然後原稅率是5%的話他就會直接寫出來是20%"},{"start":15437.675,"end":15462.274,"text":"歐盟是這樣歐盟是這樣做他就是原稅率如果是5%原稅率如果低於15%的就以15%算就以15%算他沒有加徵OK他沒有加徵那原稅如果高於15%的呢就以原稅率就以原稅率這是歐盟的那就跟日本一樣啦對日本也是這樣類似這樣所以日本可能他們原本期待都是15%結果後來發現他們跟歐盟也一樣"},{"start":15465.356,"end":15479.061,"text":"如果原稅率高於15%的他們一樣是被課原稅因為這個有像在232裡面對銅這些銅鐵這種有50%的稅嘛那是232的規範232又是另外232啊就不在這15%就不在這他們的15%的那個稅率的規範就會在50%來課證所以這跟我的理解又不一樣所以232不是累加的"},{"start":15495.685,"end":15519.442,"text":"232就是說如果232的稅率已經定在那邊了就繼續走232對繼續走232所以不管不管20不管有沒有這個20存在他們就是繼續走232包括這次的晶片就會就會也就不在這個範圍晶片就是另外嘛對不對所以我們我們大概有74%點幾的產品向是在232的範圍對我們的商品在232很多對"},{"start":15525.373,"end":15534.444,"text":"嗯 諸位應該我的時間不多啦可是我覺得我們這樣的一個對話我還是很多概念我沒辦法釐清所以我覺得國冷會更亂"},{"start":15535.991,"end":15559.577,"text":"那當然現在還在談判的一個階段中我是覺得說我們整個談判的過程就是要把所有對我們不利以及我們有利的因素都整理好那以及現在因為現在歐盟跟日本現在也發現說有很多狀況好像跟他們談判的時候的預期是不一樣的那這些東西如果我們這個戰爭性關稅我們還在進行接下來的談判我覺得這些東西我們有機會都要跟美國說得好"},{"start":15565.043,"end":15581.178,"text":"好不好 盡量朝向讓它是簡單 然後大家是知道的好的 我們會轉如果是說好 單純是用232那232我們現在在談判也在一併談嘛那到底未來不要再累加 累加就比較可怕"},{"start":15582.345,"end":15606.081,"text":"這我們不知道啦我們希望你們好好談但是整個狀況如果談出了一個有一個結論之後要跟國人報告可能就要把這一些我剛設想的有很多到底是怎麼累加或者是高於原本高於20%的部分或是高於多少的部分那以後是要怎麼計算我剛剛都要給國人一次的說明清楚好不好好的好的我會轉達謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":15608.462,"end":15633.431,"text":"好謝謝我們就等最後關稅談判結束之後就是請院長來跟立法院報告也跟國人報告在這裡好那發言登記發言委員出不在場外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束委員林黛樺張家俊張啟凱所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":15634.992,"end":15643.596,"text":"书面质询及未答复部分请相关单位于周内书面答复并复制本会本日议程处理完毕现在散会"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}