{"error":false,"id":["168547"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168547,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168547","日期":"2026-04-15","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-35-10","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":10,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第10次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-15T10:28:20+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-15T10:37:05+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:45","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ec77822e2e6eae3e7d0d0c6b8a3cc7f61f404ecbec9cddc25bca6d85ad377ffbf58e434f61d1a005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:28:20 - 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我知道對於外交部來講啦除了抗議之外手上沒有什麼武器所以我為什麼要請經濟部上來我記得"},{"start":158.915,"end":173.752,"text":"過去德國也曾經發聲對我們在外交上面給我們穿小鞋那我們就不輸入晶片我剛剛隨便google了一下巴西是台灣黃豆的第二進口國僅次於美國台灣每年進口230到260噸的大豆"},{"start":178.377,"end":199.235,"text":"然後巴西這位代表也曾經講過台灣仰賴的糧食進口當中肉類尤其是牛肉他很希望進口台灣所以本席現在就給你們一個方法台灣為什麼要跟巴西買這麼多的黃豆僅次於美國佔四成請問這個數據經濟部正確嗎"},{"start":203.443,"end":225.34,"text":"包委員這一部分比較涉及到農業部相關的數據好 沒有關係但是以這樣的趨勢正確嗎是第二的大豆進口台灣的國家正確嗎應該那個大體是正確的好 如果是一個把台灣列為中國一部分"},{"start":226.519,"end":236.54,"text":"的一個代表講出這樣的話我們不能有實際上經濟的作為嗎今天的題目當然講的是有關於伊朗的部分但是能不能帶回去研究"},{"start":237.591,"end":263.978,"text":"因為我必須要講喔對於外交部來講他們只能抗議除了抗議之外那就是最嚴重把他趕走但是要顧及到巴西跟台灣之間兩國之間的更多的交流的時候我把他趕出去無濟於事但是台灣有他經濟的影響力跟經濟實力如果過去我們晶片可以不用輸出我們現在是不是我們大豆可以轉用其他的國家來買"},{"start":265.379,"end":279.998,"text":"這樣的一個方法是不是更有效更有效應因為這個影響到的是台灣有需求但台灣不是只需要跟巴西想本席身為國防外交委員我今天就在這裡請不論是外交部經濟部又或是剛剛提到的農委會"},{"start":281.44,"end":303.106,"text":"拿出我們該有的國格以及我們該有的政府的立場我們有武器但是要用就像韓國的事件一樣我們要找出方法來應對不是只是口頭上的抗議因為我當然知道因為台灣在內部關於這個國家認同主權認同的部分有些人願意跪"},{"start":304.326,"end":319.338,"text":"但是我們身為執政黨我們身為行政團隊我們身為外交單位我們身為主管機關我們不能跪我們甚至於不能躺平所以在這個部分本席給你提出一個方法你們可以不可以回去研議"},{"start":320.419,"end":347.768,"text":"我們當然也要跟委員報告所以不管在糧食不管在能源上面多元化一定是一個必要的一個因素那麼所以是說現在我們的重要的邦交國巴拉圭他也很希望能夠跟我們就黃豆上面有更多的合作那我們也現在跟這個農委農業部密切的一個配合希望能夠在這個議題上面發揮這個總和外交的一個理念讓我們能夠第一方面"},{"start":348.188,"end":376.7,"text":"就能源就這個這個糧食上面能夠有多元化的一個來源二方面是說能夠強化我們跟這個盟邦這個巴拉圭畢竟是我們在南美最重要的一個盟邦也是唯一的一個盟邦所以我們要跟他講講關係所以剛才說到的是說肉品我們現在從巴拉圭進的這個牛肉那麼豬肉現在還要研議這個其他的這個東西這的確都是構成我們的整個糧食韌性的一個部分"},{"start":377.06,"end":398.93,"text":"所以很感謝委員的一個建議喔 那外交部一定是回去不是啦 我們不是演繹 我們現在已經知道有這個狀況我們現在要強化的是跟跨部會的一個合作讓我們這樣的一個vision 像委員這樣的一個想法能夠得到實現好 所以本席希望給你們一個時間點你們多久以內可以召開這樣的一個會議然後可以給我一個具體的方向不要是今天質詢完了 然後就當作沒事"},{"start":401.491,"end":403.894,"text":"因為我認為這個就是挑釁既然挑釁我們就有作為我把你繼續留下來我也不會上綱道把你列為不受歡迎為物因為沒有用口會時不會經濟對於這些國家來說才是重點因為本席要特別強調中國"},{"start":417.512,"end":425.717,"text":"在我們的這個拉美地區的友邦不斷的都是透過滲透以及經濟利誘但是我必須要說中國現在自己的經濟下滑跟我們在經濟的成長的表現完全是只有二分之一他也沒有那麼多的經濟動能所以從巴拉圭、薩爾瓦多再到宏都、拉斯尼加瓜通通吃了悶虧所以在這樣的狀況底下我自己認為你們必須要有積極的動作有動作才能夠"},{"start":444.887,"end":451.932,"text":"有效果所以可不可以給我一個時間點我們要來定我們這個定期在這個行政院下面都有一個經濟外交工作小組那麼這是一個跨部會的會議我們會把這個議題帶到下一次的這個經濟外交工作小組上面同時外交部當然會繼續的那個表達我們的抗議也尋求一些其他創意的方法來跟他們表達我們對於他們在這個對於我們的主權的論述上面有一個不恰當的一個說法"},{"start":475.227,"end":500.112,"text":"好 那麼下一次開會是什麼時候我們下一次這個經濟工作這要看行政院的進度 不然我們會請那個是不是在進行好 那我希望你們一個月內先給我一個報告給我們外交委員會一個報告看看你們到底在這個跨部會當中因為監統委員會沒有來那我知道對經濟部來說因為這個部分就是這樣我再一次強調台灣不可以很跨部啦我們自己要站著"},{"start":500.692,"end":524.801,"text":"跟他們做交易做談判是爭回我們自己的面子絕對不能躺平好嗎當然那我們一定是這個跟平等待我的其他的國家平等的一個交往互相尊重那也是這是榮邦計畫的一個重要的一個重點也感謝這個委員佩服委員這個非常完整的一個認識也謝謝委員的這個指導我們一定這個遵辦好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:28:21.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:28:22.054000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:28:22.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:28:28.486000+08:00","text":"有請外交部陳次長以及經濟部莊主任秘書。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T10:28:28.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:28:29.828000+08:00","text":"請陳次長及莊主秘。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:28:30.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:28:30.489000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:28:33.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:28:52.567000+08:00","text":"因為時間比較短，我想先進入巴西的問題，巴西駐臺代表竟然在4月12號的時候直接幫我們定義了臺灣是中國的一部分，這個時間點剛好是習鄭會結束的時候，他的說法竟然是因為我們內部的在野黨主席也這樣說！","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:28:54.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:28:56.388000+08:00","text":"這件事情你們去抗議了沒有？有。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:28:56.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:29:33.184000+08:00","text":"根據維也納外交關係公約第四十一條，其實是不可以干預我們的內政，根據國際法是不可以干預，根據維也納外交關係公約的話，這樣的事情是可以將其列為不受歡迎人物，但是我個人知道，列為不受歡迎人物當然是比較嚴重一點，但是選擇在這樣的時間點真的非常不恰當，畢竟就算我們跟巴西沒有正常的邦交，但是你派人來，當然除了邦交之外，還希望能夠有兩邊互相推展的部分，面對這樣的狀況，外交部後續做了什麼樣的動作？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T10:29:38.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:29:52.553000+08:00","text":"報告委員，巴西駐臺代表現在正在休假中，休假卻發這樣一個不當的言論，我們第一時間表達我們的強烈抗議與關切，也當面的約晤他，讓他知道這個狀況。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T10:29:52.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:29:55.415000+08:00","text":"我們後續還會再研議相關的行動，能夠矯正這個……但是這個還是必須要兼顧雙邊關係的可能性以及合乎外交的儀節。","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T10:30:06.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:30:27.859000+08:00","text":"我想跟委員報告很重要的一個狀況，國內的政治領袖對於中華民國存在的這個事實必須要有一個非常清楚的認識，不要被外人覺得是有機可乘，尤其是中國利用這樣的機會大肆宣傳他的觀念，我覺得造成這樣的遺憾其來有自。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T10:30:29.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:30:46.896000+08:00","text":"我們一方面對於巴西提出最強烈的抗議，並採取相應的措施，二方面也期待國人對於中華民國臺灣跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的這個事實能夠非常清楚的掌握。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:30:47.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:31:05.162000+08:00","text":"好，我知道對於外交部來講，除了抗議之外，手上沒有什麼武器，所以我為什麼要請經濟部上來，我記得過去也曾經發生德國在外交上面給我們穿小鞋，我們就不輸入晶片。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:31:05.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:31:28.786000+08:00","text":"我剛剛隨便google了一下，巴西是臺灣黃豆的第二大進口國，僅次於美國，臺灣每年進口230萬到260萬噸的大豆，巴西這位代表也曾經講過，臺灣仰賴的糧食進口當中，肉類，尤其是牛肉，他很希望能進口臺灣。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:31:28.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:31:35.592000+08:00","text":"所以本席現在就給你們一個方法，臺灣為什麼要跟巴西買這麼多的黃豆？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:31:36.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:31:38.374000+08:00","text":"僅次於美國，占四成。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:31:38.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:31:39.235000+08:00","text":"請問經濟部，這個數據正確嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊主任秘書銘池","start":"2026-04-15T10:31:43.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:31:48.687000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這部分比較涉及到農業部相關的數據，經濟部比較不清楚。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:31:48.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:31:53.071000+08:00","text":"好，沒有關係，但是以這樣的趨勢正確嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:31:53.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:31:58.075000+08:00","text":"是第二大的大豆進口國，正確嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"莊主任秘書銘池","start":"2026-04-15T10:31:58.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:32:00.116000+08:00","text":"應該大體上是正確的。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:32:01.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:32:12.211000+08:00","text":"如果一個代表講出把臺灣列為中國一部分這樣的話，我們不能有實際上經濟的作為嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:32:12.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:32:16.519000+08:00","text":"雖然今天題目講的是有關於伊朗的部分，但是你們能不能帶回去研究？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:32:17.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:32:33.635000+08:00","text":"我必須要講，因為對於外交部來講，他們只能抗議，除了抗議之外，最嚴重就是把他趕走，為了要顧及到巴西與臺灣兩國之間更多的交流，我們把他趕出去無濟於事。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:32:34.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:32:48.763000+08:00","text":"但是臺灣有經濟影響力及經濟實力，如果過去我們的晶片可以不用輸出，現在我們的大豆是不是可以轉由其他國家購買，這樣的方法是不是更有效、更有效應？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:32:48.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:32:53.249000+08:00","text":"因為這影響到的是臺灣有需求，但臺灣不是只需要跟巴西買。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:32:54.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:33:15.624000+08:00","text":"本席身為國防及外交委員會委員，我今天就在這裡請不論是外交部、經濟部，又或是剛剛提到的農業部，拿出我們該有的國格以及我們該有的政府立場，我們有武器，但是要用，就像韓國事件一樣，我們要找出方法來應對，不能只是口頭上的抗議。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:33:15.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:33:39.338000+08:00","text":"我當然知道臺灣內部關於國家認同、主權認同的部分，有些人願意跪，但是身為執政黨、身為行政團隊、身為外交單位、身為主管機關，我們不能跪，甚至於不能躺平，所以在這個部分，本席提出一個方法，你們可不可以回去研議？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T10:33:40.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:34:13.510000+08:00","text":"我們研議後再跟委員報告，不管在糧食或能源上面，多元化一定是必要的因素，現在我們重要的邦交國巴拉圭，他也很希望能夠跟我們就黃豆上面有更多合作，我們現在跟農業部密切配合，希望能夠在這個議題上面發揮總合外交的理念，讓我們一方面就能源、糧食能夠有多元化的來源。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T10:34:13.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:34:36.680000+08:00","text":"二方面能夠強化我們跟盟邦的關係，巴拉圭畢竟是我們在南美最重要的盟邦，也是唯一的盟邦，所以我們要跟他加強關係，剛才說到肉品，我們現在也從巴拉圭進口牛肉，豬肉還在研議其他東西，這的確都是構成整個糧食韌性的部分。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T10:34:37.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:34:51.246000+08:00","text":"很感謝委員的建議，我們不是研議，我們現在已經知道有這個狀況、我們現在要強化的是跨部會合作，讓這樣的vision、讓委員這樣的想法能夠得到實現。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:34:51.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:34:58.910000+08:00","text":"本席希望你們給一個時間點，你們多久以內可以召開會議，可以給我一個具體的方向，不要今天質詢完了，然後就當作沒事。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:35:01.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:35:03.694000+08:00","text":"我認為這個就是挑釁，既然是挑釁，我們就要有作為，我把你繼續留下來，我也不會上綱到把你列為不受歡迎人物，因為沒有用，口惠而實不至，經濟對於這些國家來說才是重點。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:35:03.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:35:46.708000+08:00","text":"本席要特別強調，中國對我們在拉美地區的友邦，都是不斷地透過滲透以及經濟利誘，但是我必須要說中國現在經濟下滑，跟我們在經濟成長的表現，完全是只有二分之一，他也沒有那麼多的經濟動能，所以從巴拿馬、薩爾瓦多再到宏都拉斯、尼加拉瓜統統吃了悶虧，在這樣的狀況底下，我認為你們必須要有積極的動作，有動作才能夠有效果，可不可以給我一個時間點？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:35:46.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:35:46.888000+08:00","text":"我不要訂，你們來說。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T10:35:47.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:35:48.770000+08:00","text":"我們定期在行政院下面都有一個經濟外交工作小組，這是一個跨部會的會議，我們會把這個議題帶到下一次的經濟外交工作小組上面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T10:35:48.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:35:51.912000+08:00","text":"同時，外交部當然會繼續表達我們的抗議，也尋求一些其他創意的方法來跟他們表達他們對於我們主權論述上面不恰當的說法，讓他能夠去改正。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:36:15.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:36:16.607000+08:00","text":"下一次開會是什麼時候？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T10:36:19.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:36:22.448000+08:00","text":"這要看行政院的進度，我們看是不是在近期之內可以召開。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:36:22.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:36:26.149000+08:00","text":"好，我希望你們一個月內先給我一個報告，給外交委員會一個報告。一定。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-04-15T10:36:26.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:36:48.215000+08:00","text":"看看你們到底在跨部會當中，今天農業部沒有來，我知道對經濟部來說，因為這個部分就是這樣，我要再次強調，臺灣不能讓人看不起，我們自己要站著跟他們做交易、做談判，爭回我們自己的面子，絕對不能躺平，好嗎？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T10:36:48.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:37:04.801000+08:00","text":"當然，我們一定是跟平等待我的其他國家平等交往、互相尊重，這是榮邦計畫重要的重點，也感謝委員、佩服委員非常完整的認事，也謝謝委員的指導，我們一定遵辦。謝謝。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T10:37:05.301000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T10:37:09.015286+08:00","text":"接下來請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}