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各位政府部門的官員大家好那有請那個衛福部長 石部長然後有請石耀淑的署長有請房間署的署長 謝謝邱委員早 署長早"},{"start":28.186,"end":38.977,"text":"那部長還有兩位署長我今天是想跟三位請教關於犬貓非經濟動物用藥的問題好那我們先從這張PPT開始看齊那我要細說從頭從2012年開始細說那"},{"start":46.844,"end":61.73,"text":"2012年呢因為有發生獸醫使用了偽藥的情形那當然我們的主管機關在這邊也很盡責有加強的取締那取締之後的結果呢當然一些藥商呢他就不敢把藥物賣給這些獸醫院獸醫師那導致出來的問題呢就是獸醫師獸醫院要取藥變成困難重重這是2012的事情"},{"start":69.993,"end":97.961,"text":"那困難重重這問題當然獸醫界都一直不斷的在反映所以在2015年的時候呢就去修動保法的第四條那我想這些條文大家應該都非常熟悉就是提到說如果動物的這個藥物不足的時候中央主管機關公告之後可以使用這些人用的藥物這樣子好那現在問題出現了這是2015年的的修法那修法接觸了一個原則就是獸醫"},{"start":99.561,"end":121.775,"text":"願可以使用人用的藥物這是修法的原則但是可使用跟可取得是不是畫上等號呢我想不是畫上等號的所以才會導致從2015年一直到現在都有一些紛擾出現那獸醫可以使用這些人用的藥物那可不可以取得那當時我講的時空背景那不知道這個"},{"start":124.296,"end":145.65,"text":"署長 部長 不好意思 請問當時的時空背景可使用人用的藥物 但可不可以取得可購買人用的藥物我想在他的這個使用管理上呢 在動把法第四條第三項有另外的授權辦法 透過這個辦法的制定之後來取得"},{"start":146.11,"end":173.592,"text":"對 但是這是2015的修法嘛可是你說的那個執法是2024才問世才公告嘛那當然施行日期就是未來的7月1號只是目前看起來嘎然而止好 那我們回到2015年的時空環境受益他可使用人用的藥物但是他的取得似乎受到藥事法50條的限制就是他沒有辦法直接跟藥商來購買直接跟藥商來取得那"},{"start":174.472,"end":200.629,"text":"那我現在有一個問題要在這邊先暫停一下就是說因為您剛好像回答那個王育民委員嘛就是關於現在面對這些紛擾採取的制度就是公告制嘛公告制就是那701種品項呢全都不用再經過登錄然後就可以變成動保藥物嘛所以現在是不是701項都可以讓獸醫院跟獸醫師來直接跟藥商取得"},{"start":203.266,"end":230.14,"text":"這個應該這麼講在藥事法您這個是法律專家啦應該也很清楚在藥事法第一條就已經明訂本法沒有這個規定的地方從其他法律規定所以動物在用藥的部分它是用在動物保護法裡面的相關規定所以有它的規定那麼如何這個管理呢就是在這個動物保護法的相關規定裡面去處理那自然就可以供應啦"},{"start":231.44,"end":259.211,"text":"我的問題一就是說2015的時空背景受醫他可使用人用的藥物但是卻沒有辦法取得跟購買因為他受到藥事法50條的限制所以才會在這個動物保護法裡面去做這樣的從第四條第二項讓他得以使用那麼至於說他怎麼樣管理在第三項的授權那現在第三項已經嘎然而止了目前已經嘎然而止"},{"start":260.551,"end":276.016,"text":"現在我們的現行機制我們會盡快把他來協助農業部我了解 但我現在的問題就是說現在你們口頭上嘛承諾的方式就是把那701個品項全都透過公告制嘛然後讓獸醫院 獸醫師可以直接跟藥商購買嘛"},{"start":277.336,"end":293.309,"text":"剛剛王玉明委員請教你們這個機制很好因為可以解決目前紛亂的情境但是這個機制的法源依據您剛好像回答王玉明委員說法源依據就在動保法第四條第二項嘛那現在是2026那我比較疑問的是2026第四條第二項可以作為大開方便之門的依據啊為什麼2015就不行那我的疑問是到底以"},{"start":304.539,"end":310.054,"text":"動保法第四條第二項作為你們現在大開方便之門是不是一個足夠的法源我的問題是這樣"},{"start":312.145,"end":337.432,"text":"就是法源在第四條第二項跟第三項所以兩個要搭配起來是是是當然問題是第三項你們有公告啊14日期在7月1號已經嘎然而止所以他等於是沒有他等於是沒有沒有他的執法等於是還來不及生效就胎死腹中了就是有法源啦那趕快去把它訂好我的疑問是"},{"start":338.8,"end":353.912,"text":"一條法源好像是因為時空背景不一樣在2015年變成在2015年他不是取得藥物的法源但是在2026年的今天就是取得藥物的法源我的問題是這樣那為什麼會產生這種差異"},{"start":357.409,"end":374.896,"text":"是因為無法可用然後是不是就是勉強去把凍保法因為凍保法已經存在凍保法的第四條第二項已經2015年就存在了啊怎麼那時候不能夠作為大開方便之門的法源現在就可以作為大開方便之門的法源從2015年到現在這個期間還是一樣繼續在供應的"},{"start":379.918,"end":408.836,"text":"沒有問題啊是在供應但是他把它區分為兩種藥物如果是凍飽藥物的話就可以直接購買只有144的原本在第三項規定你的授權辦法在今年7月1號才會實施在這個之前是OK的在這個之前是可以直接跟第四條第二項去處理是嗎你確定嗎 部長你確定是這樣嗎當然這個法的主管是這樣因為藥事法50條就是限制受醫師可以去取得藥物"},{"start":411.311,"end":435.89,"text":"要釋法的第50條就是限制要要要那個獸醫師跟獸醫院可以直接去跟廠商購買藥物那也這邊跟委員稍微做一點點補充討論過程當中在108年其實針對剛才提到的辦法的實施之前我們就正式發函給所謂的藥業的工協會藥商人可供應人用藥品與動物診療機構所以"},{"start":438.432,"end":452.842,"text":"這個是在108年5月21號的時候呢針對這個議題我們已經所以到目前他這個辦法雖然說在研議或者未來的走向對藥商供應的部分目前都是沒有問題的藥商供應那你呢那你講的那些東西要透過登錄制嗎你說108年之後你公告的701項是要透過登錄制才能夠變成凍飽藥物才能夠直接跟藥商來取得嗎"},{"start":469.013,"end":475.498,"text":"當時108年的時候 食藥署有刑惡文給藥商 藥局那在這個供應上是沒有問題的那因為後來凝聚了一個法 那這個法規的時候它有一個轉介 就是說人用藥要成為動寡用藥才可以嘛 對不對那所以這段時間它仍然在作業的時間還是一樣供應無虞 它還是可以繼續運作"},{"start":493.692,"end":497.494,"text":"那假設我這個辦法假設說我現在暫緩辦那也是一樣就是108年的那個還是繼續適用我想請教如果說現在我們註銷以後變成一個新的辦法那我想我們會重新解釋現有的法規裡面那假設不夠明確周全"},{"start":513.564,"end":527.355,"text":"我想請教一件事因為越聽越混亂就是在今天之前因為我今天聽到一個最新的規定就是說那701樣也沒有所謂的登錄制只要我們主管機關這邊一聲令下公告701項他全都不用經過登錄"},{"start":529.656,"end":554.712,"text":"藥商就可以直接去買這是今天以後的答案嘛那今天以前的機制不就是你人用的藥物有701項你要透過登錄你才能夠變成凍飽藥物藥商才能夠直接我想我有一些誤解啦有一些對這個法規的誤解在第四條的第二項凍飽法的第四條的第二項他授權主管機關公告公告之後的藥品品項受益室就可以取得使用"},{"start":555.805,"end":569.397,"text":"所以這個是在第四條第二項至於第四條第三項授權的辦法才再把這個第二項主管機關所公告的可使用於這個動物跟非經濟動物的這個這個"},{"start":571.378,"end":591.399,"text":"人用藥品再把它分成保護用藥它是要採取登錄制跟其他然後供應的時候才有不一樣但是在這個辦法沒有實施之前就按照動保法的第四條第二項來執行所以只要主管機關公告的人用藥品藥商就直接可以供應"},{"start":592.06,"end":615.298,"text":"那如果是這樣為什麼還要修法如果按照第四條第二項要修的是在第三項你也根本不用執法出來了要修的是第三項因為我需要相關的管理規定可是我覺得部長你的法律概念可能不清楚如果按照你的邏輯第三項的當然不會是總法法的主管機關但是在這個辦法在會嫌實施的時候我們都非常清楚"},{"start":615.938,"end":640.875,"text":"那麼這個授權的法規是在第四條的第三項我想您這邊是可能需要再進一步的來跟我們討論了解因為你的邏輯很明顯的矛盾你覺得按照第四條第二項就可以公告全部的藥品都可以使用也可以取得公告所有的藥品就是經過主管機關討論之後對於動物用藥所不足的"},{"start":646.118,"end":673.784,"text":"對 阿非經濟 講到這邊 那就可以直接使用獸醫師就可以直接去購買嗎就是可以使用當然 阿不能購買怎麼使用這個法律的邏輯是很清楚的因為受限於藥事法第五十條沒有沒有沒有沒有 受限於藥事法第五十條藥事法的第一條就明定本法沒有公 本法沒有規定之處從其他法律規定你如果第四條第二項就你所列出來的藥物"},{"start":674.724,"end":681.548,"text":"這個公告出來就可以取得如果就可以取得那現行法就有了為什麼還要去修法然後你的第四條第三項你又用第三條怎麼藥商也可以供應藥局也可以供應沒有問題你的第四條第三項還要去補充第二項"},{"start":690.913,"end":696.116,"text":"不是補充第二項 它不是它是授權法規第二項是因為第二第三項是法規命令不然因為你這樣真的沒有辦法跟你好好討論我真的是完全的我只是對法源來說補充你說"},{"start":706.741,"end":710.383,"text":"如果第四條第二項就可以讓獸醫師取得用藥權之外取得人體藥物的用藥權還可以讓他取得購買權的話可以使用當然就可以要取得不然如何使用"},{"start":724.008,"end":740.558,"text":"那如果可以使用又可以取得為什麼現在過去十幾年有這個紛擾你給我答案啊大家就是因為取得紛擾所以才產生這個紛擾紛擾的產生是因為7月1號要實施的新的辦法造成一些使用取得上的不便所以才來調整並不是取得上的問題為什麼7月1號這種法規規定的規定反而會給出第二項的規定這個符合啊你說沒有誤解因為你的第三項"},{"start":751.685,"end":766.092,"text":"創造了新的遊戲規則 問題是你的第三項去抵觸了第二項的法律這完全不符合法律的體力啊 這完全不符合你用執法來輸價第二項 這個是一定的程序產生 那麼如果在這個ABC啊 你的執法 你的第三項是執法執法去抵觸法律的規定 那你為什麼需要去弄這樣的執法出來沒有這個抵觸 沒有抵觸"},{"start":776.557,"end":803.825,"text":"第二項只是在公告得以使用在動物身上的這個人用藥品我請那個房檢署的請問在今天以前在今天以前獸醫師他有人用藥物的使用權但是他有沒有所有人用藥物的取得權其實在目前的過渡時間他使用都沒有問題"},{"start":805.262,"end":819.134,"text":"使用沒有問題取得啊 那些鑰匙 取得也沒有問題現在目前在用的取得也沒有問題 以目前當下辦法沒有公布前那取得沒有問題的法源依據是哪一條取得沒有問題的法源依據是哪一條 取得沒有問題這是根據動保法第四條第二項"},{"start":827.369,"end":837.017,"text":"那如果動樓法第四條第二項可以使用為什麼你還去做一個離法的離法無法那為什麼還要再學法第三項的授權辦法一旦實施之後造成部分取得的問題在它沒有實施之前是沒有問題的所以取得沒有問題如果按照委員的解釋的話會造成現在很多的同意的問題"},{"start":856.172,"end":861.579,"text":"你完全誤解啦完全誤解我覺得這個沒有誤解我不接受這樣的指控我完全不接受這樣的指控然後我就指全國人民全國人民在看直播我問一個問題如果第四條第二項就可以作為取得的"},{"start":873.915,"end":888.142,"text":"受益是取得要的法源依據為什麼你還要去修第三項你還要去修第三項而且現在根本就不用修法了啊剛剛王毓民委員他跟我說第四條第二項既然可以使用那你就不用修法了啊不是這樣嗎我完全不理解我完全不能夠理解部長我想請問一件事法規命令抵觸法律請問一下誰無效"},{"start":904.059,"end":924.434,"text":"法規命令抵觸法律則無效我想你的法律背景很清楚應該知道答案但你不知道答案啊我要給你循循三又啊那應該是法規命令無效吧對啊那你的第三項已經抵觸第二項了第一你為什麼要制定沒有抵觸你哪裡沒有抵觸你的執法就是讓大家請委員指教哪裡抵觸了"},{"start":925.234,"end":930.098,"text":"你的第二項你一直說第二項是法源第二項可以讓701項的藥品不只讓獸醫師使用還可以讓他購買你的第二項解釋出來是這樣的結果可是你制定出來的執法卻是701項要區分為兩個部分一個叫人用的藥物一個叫做凍飽藥物凍飽藥物才可以讓獸醫師去使用那完全是抵觸了第二項的規定啊那是一個使用管理辦法"},{"start":954.778,"end":970.471,"text":"我不知道你為什麼要去制定一個抵觸母法第4條第2項的規定而且第4條第2項如果可以使用的話為什麼你們現在要修法如果第4條第2項可以使用為什麼過去12年一直到今年完全都是一個分島局面婚完紀念的狀況我覺得部長你可能要去聽聽看獸醫師跟獸醫院的心聲他們過去12年到現在關於問"},{"start":981.681,"end":1000.904,"text":"才會去支持這個農業部把這個辦法暫停不要實施然後重新再調整那好如果第四條第二項是法源那為什麼你還要修我就問嘛第四條第二項既然是法源你幹嘛還要我們講的是辦法你講的是修法不是兩回事啊"},{"start":1001.164,"end":1020.996,"text":"不是,是王毓民委員剛才問你說,你跟報出來的都可以直接在藥商去購買所以你現在的意思就是只要廢執法嘛母法不用修了嘛,你的意思是這樣,因為你母法已經有法源了嘛母法不用修啊,動保法不用修啊為什麼要修動保法"},{"start":1022.093,"end":1037.086,"text":"因為動保法第二項他只賦予獸醫師可使用人用藥物他並沒有授予獸醫師可以直接跟藥商買藥物那請問可以使用但是不能取得那怎麼使用"},{"start":1037.406,"end":1062.692,"text":"那過去12年就是有這樣的紛擾啊沒有問題啊也是因為有這樣的紛擾所以最近才有這樣的新聞啊這些事主授醫師才會出來抗議啊那如果都沒有紛擾請問你為什麼要修法我沒有要修法啊請問你為什麼要修法我沒有要修法啊你沒有要修法好 那我問你辦法 我們現在談的是辦法還是動保法是法律還是授權辦法好 那我問你 你的執法要怎麼修"},{"start":1063.872,"end":1075.457,"text":"你的執法要怎麼修我們現在就是按照授權辦法現在還沒有實施嘛所以現在看到那個不實施嘛所以我們現在要重新調整調整的結果是什麼調整的結果是送醫師全部都可以直接跟藥商買藥物嗎這相關的一些使用規定要重新檢討不是 部長你現在好 你執法已經高然而止了嘛那你執法現在的方向是什麼"},{"start":1092.942,"end":1100.731,"text":"執法的方向這個授權的辦法的訂定當然是主管機關跟我們來彙弦規定所以相關的細節的部分我們之後都會再進行沒有問題 執法裡頭你會不會規定稱作所有公告的藥物 獸醫都可以直接購買"},{"start":1110.722,"end":1129.173,"text":"執法你會不會修成說我們還會再找獸醫師還有相關的stakeholder來討論然後這個法規也繼續經過預告的程序我只能說部長你真的非常不識人間煙火你不知道過去2012年一直到今天2026年事主跟獸醫師對於沒有辦法直接取得藥物的配套"},{"start":1131.815,"end":1134.417,"text":"我認為在今日之前這些獸醫師取得藥品沒有問題但是您認為有問題"},{"start":1148.968,"end":1154.831,"text":"他取得藥品怎麼會沒有問題現在的機制就是現在取得完全可以合法去取得那請問一下為什麼過去12年有這些紛擾沒有紛擾 過去12年沒有紛擾現在的紛擾的才是7月1號如果實施的話才會有紛擾那所以你們的執法"},{"start":1167.558,"end":1172.78,"text":"你們的執法為什麼會感染兒子你回答我執法為什麼你們要讓他開始因為我們認為7月1號這樣實施會有分老什麼分老你告訴我什麼分老沒有你就告訴我什麼分老7月1號實施的執法會有什麼分老因為現在沒有去強制規定"},{"start":1183.743,"end":1197.037,"text":"分成兩類一種是由藥商直接供應一種是由藥局供應目前沒有這樣分都可以7月1號的辦法時事就分流一種只能藥商供應一種只能藥局供應那這個在時事上確實會造成分佬請問一下那個防檢署是這樣嗎是這樣嗎來告訴我們答案"},{"start":1205.566,"end":1230.281,"text":"其實問題的其一部長講的也是其中的一項一項怎麼樣也就是說像現在在這個辦法裡面人的用藥那你人用藥要經過登錄以後才能轉到中保用藥所以這個會不跟你討論7月1號我跟你討論現行的現行的現行的那請問一下藥商獸醫師要如何取得"},{"start":1231.121,"end":1236.586,"text":"要如何現在現行規定就是藥商701種藥都可以跟藥商來買嗎報告委員目前的暫行的時候那個藥商是直接可以供應給售醫院的目前執行是這樣的那如果是這樣為什麼要修4條2項"},{"start":1251.77,"end":1279.086,"text":"沒有沒有沒有如果四條二項已經是法源了已經第四條二項已經是法源了沒有沒有現在是這一個的管理辦法裡面那有很多就是當時的一個架構上是說人藥歸人藥那你要動保用藥那你要動保藥的機制去管它所以你要人用到這個登錄為動保用藥才可以使用但也因為說這個時空背景改變跟實際上真的會限制到現在目前的"},{"start":1281.047,"end":1304.362,"text":"他們在做治療上的這個這些的使用的便利性跟即時性所以才會做大幅度的修正往更完善的方向來走我覺得我們的官員跟民間獸醫師跟這個事主的認知完全不一樣完全是兩個平行時空如果今天不是取得藥物有困難的話為什麼會有這麼沉痛的發生為什麼他們會有"},{"start":1309.465,"end":1326.855,"text":"在這個4月10號的公聽會你們招架不住然後呢會讓整個執法的實施感染而止不是那個包委員也就是說針對這個辦法裡面那收集大家的意見確實覺得有自愛難行就是說有些的結還是要打開所以才會慎重重視這個議題所以重新要來制定一個辦法"},{"start":1334.72,"end":1340.849,"text":"法規命令的這個辦法 那依照一些相關不管動保也好 或者動保法或其他的"},{"start":1341.857,"end":1357.702,"text":"能夠讓我們請食藥署署長醫事法50條醫事法50條可以供應藥品的藥事法50條可以供應藥品的請你念一下好嗎第二款有哪些地方第二款醫院我幫你念診所機關團體學校的醫療機構或檢驗學術機構買賣請問一下這裡有提到售醫院嗎"},{"start":1365.345,"end":1389.278,"text":"跟委員報告一下 您剛才提到的這個相冊這個上面都寫好就是因為對於人用藥品要供到動物醫院裡面在108年5月21號FDA藥治第108-901-4612號函之藥業工協會與房檢署人用藥品於用於犬貓及飛機動物之使用管理辦法正式實施前"},{"start":1390.399,"end":1407.558,"text":"就是現在就實施前藥商仍可供應人用藥品與動物機構為應遵循相關的事項表示說這個沒有實施之前其實都可以供的所以這個一點就是因為預告好像是在7月1號本來嘛"},{"start":1408.118,"end":1424.206,"text":"所以就會有些改變在這改變沒有7月1號還沒到之前其實都還沒發生都可以供那如果是這樣如果是這樣的話請問你要釋法要不要修因為你那個只是行政函事你的行政函事會不會有抵觸要釋法之遇你的行政函事是不是要修"},{"start":1425.367,"end":1443.532,"text":"部長他還特別提到了 因為藥術法沒有規定的地方 其實在動保法裡面有相關的規定的時候他就可以按照那部分 當到一些公要那我現在請問一下我們的衛福部推給這個農業部嘛 去修法嘛 那請問一下動保法裡頭可不可以來一條條做不受醫事法50條的限制"},{"start":1445.092,"end":1465.968,"text":"可不可以來一條這樣嗎 因為完全就是跟藥事法50條的限制跟委員報告一下動物保法第四條的第二項裡面當動物用藥不足之時 其實已經寫很清楚了不足的時候呢 可以用人藥過去協助那就是不足啊 現況就是不足啊就是可以用人藥啊"},{"start":1468.43,"end":1496.667,"text":"法院已經有了法院已經有了可以用人要就是取得就受到鑰匙法50條的限制啊所以50條也要連代修啊那你剛剛講的函式其實你們已經認同嘛只是法規沒有相對應的背印上來那如果衛福部這邊不想動你們寶貴的鑰匙法可不可以來動一下動保法那可是動保法要寫一句話叫做不受依釋法50條的限制你要這樣啊法院才清楚啊你不能夠用抵觸鑰匙法的函式在刑事好嗎"},{"start":1497.788,"end":1509.858,"text":"法源非常清楚了啦那如果法源清楚為什麼要第四條所以現在沒有問題嘛所以現在沒有要修共保法嘛現在要修訂的還沒有實施的這個辦法好那我現在請問一個問題啦第四條第二項如果可以解讀成說它有跟藥商買藥的權限如果可以解讀的話這個前提你們認同嘛那為什麼你們7月1號制定的卻是兩套標準而其中有一套"},{"start":1525.39,"end":1535.457,"text":"去抵觸母法的規定那你們承不承認你們執法有問題嗎沒有 他只是管理上把它分流沒有啊 這不能買啦只有被化為東寶藥物才能夠去參加商買你們你們的解釋701項現在全都可以買"},{"start":1541.861,"end":1556.55,"text":"然後你們的執法呢 把701項區分為兩種 只有114項才可以購買那我現在就不懂啊 你的執法 你們怎麼頭腦不清楚去制定了一個抵觸線型就可以701項完全購買的藥物沒有抵觸 完全沒有抵觸"},{"start":1563.459,"end":1579.587,"text":"好那現在另外一個問題我不想跟你陳口舌之爭反正這是直播的大家有眼睛有耳朵看得一清二楚聽得非常的清晰我不想爭執那我想問一件事可不可以正面就是給動物用的用藥可不可以負面表列"},{"start":1580.68,"end":1607.046,"text":"因為目前是七百零一項算是正面表列嘛那可不可以負面表列我想法規上您最清楚在第四條第二項的寫法我那麼清楚還被你花了二十分鐘的時間不斷地打臉這是你口中清楚的我嗎你非常的清楚在第四條這邊寫得很清楚在動保法第四條第二項它是公告人用藥品類別這是正向表列的寫法"},{"start":1608.703,"end":1633.216,"text":"你也可以解讀成是負向表列啊你也可以解讀你也可以解讀負向表列啊法律的解釋本來就是有擴張解釋、限縮解釋、目的性解釋、核限式解釋啊你也可以解釋成負面那你現在不想負面就告訴我說法條看起來是正面哪裡有正面這兩個字啊啊你不是說我頭腦很清楚法學很清楚那我的法律見解就在這邊啊好那我收回我剛剛的說法"},{"start":1634.697,"end":1648.797,"text":"我覺得你要收回的可能不是只有這一句可能是從明槍起跑一直到現在你每一句話都要都要收回 部長我問你一個問題到底現在市主跟獸醫的心聲你有沒有掌握 掌握到哪裡 請你分享給我知道"},{"start":1649.642,"end":1675.507,"text":"我們支持目前這個主管機關所公告的701項的所有人用藥品持續的使用在動物身上這就是我們的立場持續的使用在動物身上那取藥權呢沒有問題也可以跟藥商取得法源依據呢第四條第二項法源依據的那如果有第四條第二項那這就夠啦為什麼還要再弄執法"},{"start":1676.952,"end":1687.585,"text":"執法是在第三項啊對啊所以是有主管機關依照第四條第三項再去訂使用管理規定那所以現在就有法源了啊取得跟使用管理是兩回事"},{"start":1689.721,"end":1713.062,"text":"好 那我問你一件事 7月1號你們把它分流為兩種 一種叫人用藥物 要去市主要去藥局購買一個叫凍飽藥物 可以讓那個叫獸醫師直接取得你們分成AB兩套嘛 那你的AB兩套不是抵觸你所謂的701項大開方便之門的現行法4條之二嗎那叫做使用管理規定"},{"start":1714.246,"end":1743.051,"text":"指法抵觸母法請問一下部長知道什麼效果嗎沒有抵觸啦哪裡沒有抵觸你本來701目前就沒有實施怎麼會抵觸那你的意思是有抵觸只是沒實施啊你講話要精確啊當時候訂的時候也是主管機關邀請了很多的單位大家一起討論過所以你現在是對啊那你現在為什麼那個懸崖勒馬嘎然而止讓他胎死苦中剛剛提到這個是造成在使用上取得一些不便利性所以重新檢討"},{"start":1746.809,"end":1769.017,"text":"主席已經站起來了並不是抵觸母法而不實施是在實施上的方便性要檢討那我現在最後一句話因為主席已經站起來主席其實給我們很充裕的攻防時間那主席謝謝你也讓我跟部長的對話能夠呈現在世人的眼前然後大眾我想就交給大眾公平那我最後只講一句話為什麼會引起這樣軒然大波就是從2012年一直到現今已經快"},{"start":1775.66,"end":1788.234,"text":"14年了關於事主跟獸醫他們要取得藥物困難重重有些甚至是去偷買是去偷買好那我先直接講一句如果可以取得藥物那請問一下為什麼藥商害怕賣給這些獸醫師請問為什麼"},{"start":1793.76,"end":1808.076,"text":"如果今天是合法可以取得為什麼由我講2012年的前提就是害怕賣給獸醫師呢這個問題好好去思考一下就好了那沒有問題反正我今天兩個訴求第一個訴求就是希望能夠正面表列負面表列但是"},{"start":1808.897,"end":1824.432,"text":"署長顯然不認同收回他的話那第二個問題呢就是我們希望能夠修法有一個長治久安的一個基礎不再困擾事主跟獸醫師而且讓我們毛小孩的健康權生命權用藥權能夠得到最大的保障好那謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:49:06.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:49:10.782000+08:00","text":"主席、各位政府部門的官員，大家好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:49:12.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:49:15.083000+08:00","text":"有請衛福部長石部長、食藥署署長、防檢署署長，謝謝。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T10:49:15.083000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T10:49:16.083000+08:00","text":"請石崇良部長、姜至剛署長、杜麗華署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:49:15.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:49:15.243000+08:00","text":"邱委員早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:49:15.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:49:15.463000+08:00","text":"部長早。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:49:25.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:49:32.414000+08:00","text":"部長還有兩位署長，我今天是想跟三位請教關於犬貓非經濟動物用藥的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:49:32.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:49:34.957000+08:00","text":"我們先從這張PPT開始看起，我要細說從頭，從2012年開始細說。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:49:42.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:50:26.159000+08:00","text":"2012年因為發生獸醫有使用偽藥的情形，當然我們主管機關也很盡責有加強取締，取締之後的結果，當然一些藥商他就不敢把藥物賣給這些獸醫院、獸醫師，導致出來的問題就是獸醫師、獸醫院要取藥變成困難重重，這是2012的事情，而困難重重的這個問題，當然獸醫界都一直不斷地在反映，所以在2015年的時候就去修動保法第四條，我想這些條文大家應該都非常熟悉，就是提到如果動物藥物不足的時候，中央主管機關公告之後，可以使用這些人用的藥物。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:50:28.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:50:43.426000+08:00","text":"現在問題出現了，這是2015年的修法，修法揭櫫的原則就是獸醫、院可以使用人用的藥物，這是修法的原則，但是可使用跟可取得是不是畫上等號呢？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:50:43.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:50:50.730000+08:00","text":"我想不是畫上等號的，所以才會導致從2015年一直到現在都有一些紛擾出現。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:50:51.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:50:54.593000+08:00","text":"獸醫可以使用這些人用的藥物，那可不可以取得？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:50:56.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:51:10.663000+08:00","text":"當時我講的時空背景，請問部長，當時的時空背景可使用人用的藥物，但可不可以取得、購買人用的藥物？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:51:11.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:51:21.630000+08:00","text":"我想在它的使用管理上，在動保法第四條第三項有另外的授權辦法，透過這個辦法制定之後來取得。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:51:22.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:51:33.459000+08:00","text":"對，但這是2015的修法，可是你說的子法是2024才問世、才公告，當然施行日期就是未來的7月1號，只是目前看起來戛然而止。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:51:34.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:51:49.031000+08:00","text":"我們回到2015年的時空環境，獸醫他可使用人用的藥物，但是他的取得似乎受到藥事法第五十條的限制，就是他沒有辦法直接跟藥商購買、直接跟藥商取得。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:51:50.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:52:16.609000+08:00","text":"我現在有一個問題，這邊先暫停一下，因為您剛剛好像有回答王育敏委員，就是關於現在面對這些紛擾，採取的制度就是公告制，公告制就是那701種品項全都不用再經過登錄就可以變成動保藥物，所以現在是不是701項都可以讓獸醫院跟獸醫師來直接跟藥商取得？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:52:19.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:52:46.120000+08:00","text":"這個應該這麼講，您是法律專家，應該也很清楚，藥事法第一條就已經明定，本法沒有規定的地方，從其他法律規定，所以動物在用藥的部分，它是用在動物保護法裡面的相關規定，所以由它的規定，如何管理就是在動物保護法的相關規定裡面去處理，那自然就可以供應。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:52:46.120000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T10:52:47.440000+08:00","text":"我了解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:52:47.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:52:59.445000+08:00","text":"我的問題就是，2015的時空背景，獸醫他可使用人用的藥物，但是卻沒有辦法取得跟購買，因為受到藥事法第五十條的限制。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:52:59.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:53:11.509000+08:00","text":"對，所以才會在動物保護法裡面去做這樣的規定，從第四條第二項讓他得以使用，至於說怎麼樣管理，在第三項授權去訂出來。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:53:11.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:53:17.832000+08:00","text":"對，現在第三項已經戛然而止了嘛，目前已經戛然而止，現在我們的現行機制……","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:53:17.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:53:19.952000+08:00","text":"我們會儘快協助農業部再訂出來。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:53:20.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:53:31.996000+08:00","text":"我了解，但我現在的問題就是說，現在你們口頭上承諾的方式就是把701個品項全都透過公告制，然後讓獸醫院、獸醫師可以直接跟藥商購買。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:53:33.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:53:48.529000+08:00","text":"剛剛王育敏委員請教你們，這個機制很好，因為可以解決目前紛亂的情境，但是這個機制的法源依據，您剛剛好像回答王育敏委員說，法源依據就在動保法第四條第二項，現在是2026，我比較有疑問的是，2026第四條第二項可以作為大開方便之門的依據，為什麼2015就不行？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:53:48.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:54:05.673000+08:00","text":"我的疑問是，到底以動保法第四條第二項作為你們現在大開方便之門，是不是一個足夠的法源？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:54:05.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:54:06.054000+08:00","text":"我的問題是這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:54:08.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:54:13.146000+08:00","text":"這個法源在第四條第二項跟第三項，這兩個要搭配起來，不是只看第二項。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:54:13.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:54:19.568000+08:00","text":"是、是、是，當然，問題是第三項你們有公告，實施日期在7月1號，已經戛然而止。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:54:19.568000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T10:54:20.568000+08:00","text":"對，要趕快強化。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:54:19.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:54:27.230000+08:00","text":"所以它等於是沒有……它的子法等於是還來不及生效就胎死腹中了。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:54:27.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:54:30.191000+08:00","text":"就是有法源，要趕快去把它訂好。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:54:32.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:54:49.912000+08:00","text":"我的疑問是，一條法源好像是因為時空背景不一樣，在2015年，它不是取得藥物的法源，但是在2026年的今天就是取得藥物的法源，我的問題是這樣，為什麼會產生這種差異？","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:54:53.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:55:09.375000+08:00","text":"是因為無法可用，然後就勉強去把動保法……因為動保法已經存在，動保法第四條第二項在2015年就已經存在了，怎麼那時候不能夠作為大開方便之門的法源，現在就可以作為大開方便之門的法源？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:55:09.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:55:16.318000+08:00","text":"從2015年到現在，這個期間還是一樣繼續在供應，沒有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:55:16.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:55:21.601000+08:00","text":"是在供應，但是它把它區分為兩種藥物，如果是動保藥物的話就可以直接購買，只有144的……","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:55:21.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:55:29.686000+08:00","text":"原本在第三項規定，授權辦法在今年7月1號才會實施，在這個之前是OK的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:55:30.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:55:32.948000+08:00","text":"在這個之前是可以直接跟……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:55:33.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:55:36.070000+08:00","text":"用第四條第二項去處理。是嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:55:36.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:55:36.991000+08:00","text":"你確定嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:55:36.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:55:38.592000+08:00","text":"部長，你確定是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:55:38.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:55:39.732000+08:00","text":"當然這個法的主管機關是農業部。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:55:39.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:55:40.553000+08:00","text":"是這樣嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:55:40.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:55:56.338000+08:00","text":"因為藥事法第五十條就是限制獸醫師可以去取得藥物，藥事法第五十條就是限制獸醫師跟獸醫院可以直接去跟廠商購買藥物，那也……","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-04-15T10:55:57.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:56:26.100000+08:00","text":"這邊跟委員稍微做一點點補充，討論過程當中，在108年，針對剛才提到的辦法實施之前，我們就正式發函給藥業的公協會，藥商仍可供應人用藥品於動物診療機構，這個是在108年5月21號的時候，針對這個議題我們已經這樣做了，所以到目前，這個辦法雖然說在研議，或者未來的走向，對藥商供應的部分，目前都是沒有問題的。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:56:26.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:56:27.041000+08:00","text":"那你講的那些東西要透過登錄制嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:56:27.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:56:28.842000+08:00","text":"你說108年之後，你公告的701項是要透過登錄制才能夠變成動保藥物，才能夠直接跟藥商來取得嗎？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"杜署長麗華","start":"2026-04-15T10:56:45.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:56:49.516000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們這樣講，當時108年的時候，食藥署有行文給藥商跟藥局，在供應上是沒有問題的，因為後來擬具了一個法，這個法規它有一個轉介，就是說人用藥要成為動保用藥才可以，對不對？對。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"杜署長麗華","start":"2026-04-15T10:56:49.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:56:51.478000+08:00","text":"所以這段時間，它在作業的時間還是一樣，供應無虞，它還是可以繼續運作。","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜署長麗華","start":"2026-04-15T10:57:09.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:57:10.993000+08:00","text":"假設這個辦法現在緩辦、暫緩辦，也是一樣，就是108年的那個還是繼續適用。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:57:11.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:57:11.833000+08:00","text":"不是，我想請教一件事……","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"杜署長麗華","start":"2026-04-15T10:57:12.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:57:13.474000+08:00","text":"如果現在我們註銷以後變成一個新的辦法，我想我們會重新檢視，現有的法規裡面假設不夠明確、周全，我們就讓它明確化。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:57:29.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:57:32.406000+08:00","text":"我想請教一件事，因為越聽越會亂。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:57:32.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:57:55.843000+08:00","text":"就是在今天之前，因為我今天聽到一個最新的規定，就是說那701樣也沒有所謂的登錄制，只要我們主管機關這邊一聲令下，公告701項，它全都不用經過登錄，藥商就可以直接去買，這是今天以後的答案嘛，那今天以前的機制不就是人用的藥物有701項，你要透過登錄才能夠變成動保藥物，藥商才能夠直接……獸醫師才能夠去……","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:57:56.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:57:59.765000+08:00","text":"我想委員有一些誤解，有一些對這個法規的誤解。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:58:00.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:58:47.399000+08:00","text":"在動保法第四條第二項，它授權主管機關公告，公告之後的藥品品項，獸醫師就可以取得使用，所以這個是在第四條第二項；至於第四條第三項授權的辦法，才再把第二項主管機關所公告的可使用於動物、非經濟動物的人用藥品分成保護用藥，它是要採取登錄制跟其他，然後供應的時候才有不一樣，但是在這個辦法沒有實施之前，就按照動保法第四條第二項來執行，所以只要主管機關公告的人用藥品，藥商就直接可以供應、可以取得。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:58:48.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:58:49.721000+08:00","text":"如果是這樣，為什麼還要修法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:58:49.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:58:54.285000+08:00","text":"如果按照第四條第二項，遊戲規則……你也根本不用訂子法出來了。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:58:54.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:58:57.687000+08:00","text":"要修的是第三項，因為有需要相關的管理規定。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:58:57.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:59:03.392000+08:00","text":"可是我覺得部長你的法律概念可能不清楚，如果按照你的邏輯，第三項的……如果第二項就可以公告，就可以使用……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:59:03.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:59:17.002000+08:00","text":"我當然不會是動保法的主管機關，但是這個辦法在會銜實施的時候我們都非常清楚，那麼這個授權的法規是在第四條的第三項。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:59:17.002000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T10:59:18.002000+08:00","text":"不是，因為你現在已經出現法學上的邏輯矛盾了，部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:59:17.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:59:21.825000+08:00","text":"我想您這邊可能需要再進一步來跟我們討論、了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:59:22.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:59:30.611000+08:00","text":"不是，因為你的邏輯很明顯的矛盾，你覺得按照第四條第二項就可以公告，全部的藥品都可以使用也可以取得。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:59:30.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:59:43.518000+08:00","text":"不是公告所有的藥品，就是經過主管機關討論之後，對於動物用藥所不足的才去公告人用藥品得供非經濟動物使用。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:59:43.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:59:48.659000+08:00","text":"對，非經濟動物……好，講到這邊，那就可以直接使用，獸醫師就可以直接去購買嗎？","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:59:48.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:59:51.280000+08:00","text":"就是可以使用，不能購買的話怎麼使用？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:59:53.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:59:54.821000+08:00","text":"這個法律的邏輯是很清楚的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:59:54.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:59:56.621000+08:00","text":"因為受限於藥事法第五十條……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:59:56.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:59:57.541000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有、沒有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T10:59:57.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T10:59:59.482000+08:00","text":"受限於藥事法第五十條，造成這些藥獸醫師沒有辦法去購買。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T10:59:59.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:00:05.523000+08:00","text":"藥事法的第一條就明定，本法未規定者，依其他有關法律之規定。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:00:05.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:00:11.765000+08:00","text":"如果第四條第二項列出來的藥物，只要公告出來就可以取得……","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:00:11.765000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:00:12.765000+08:00","text":"它就是其他法律規定，它就符合藥事法第一條的依其他有關法律之規定……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:00:12.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:00:14.606000+08:00","text":"如果都可以取得，現行法都有了，為什麼還要去修法？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:00:14.606000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:00:15.606000+08:00","text":"所以這完全沒有問題，在使用上完全合理……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:00:14.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:00:14.986000+08:00","text":"第四條第三項……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:00:15.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:00:16.227000+08:00","text":"藥商也可以供應，藥局也可以供應，沒有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:00:16.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:00:17.548000+08:00","text":"部長，你的第四條第三項還要去補充第二項，然後用第四條第三項去凌駕第二項，因為第三項是授權訂定法規命令。","quality":0.34},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:00:26.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:00:29.254000+08:00","text":"不是補充第二項，它是授權法規對於這些人用藥品使用在動物時，需要有相關的使用管理規定。","quality":0.359},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:00:29.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:00:31.836000+08:00","text":"部長，你這樣我真的沒有辦法跟你好好討論，我真的是完全地……我只是針對法源……","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:00:31.836000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:00:32.836000+08:00","text":"我一直努力地在跟您說明，我一直努力地讓您了解目前整個法規的架構。","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:00:32.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:00:45.422000+08:00","text":"但你的邏輯本身就矛盾了，如果第四條第二項就可以讓獸醫師取得人體藥物的用藥權之外，還可以讓他取得購買權的話……","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:00:45.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:00:46.363000+08:00","text":"動保法第四條第二項就已經明定獸醫師可以使用，可以使用當然就可以取得，不然如何使用？","quality":0.447},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:01:00.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:01:04.051000+08:00","text":"如果可以使用又可以取得，為什麼過去十幾年有這個紛擾？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:01:04.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:01:07.313000+08:00","text":"你給我答案，大家就是因為取得不易才產生這個紛擾。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:01:07.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:01:14.677000+08:00","text":"紛擾的產生是因為7月1號要實施的新辦法造成一些使用及取得上的不便，所以才來調整，並不是取得範圍的問題……","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:01:14.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:01:15.478000+08:00","text":"為什麼7月1號這種法規命令的規定反而會牴觸第二項的規定？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:01:15.478000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:01:16.478000+08:00","text":"在今日之前的取得都沒有問題，您有很大的誤解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:01:15.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:01:15.698000+08:00","text":"這不符合啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:01:15.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:01:35.489000+08:00","text":"沒有誤解，因為第三項創造了新的遊戲規則，問題是第三項牴觸了第二項的法律，這完全不符合法律的體例，這完全不符合！","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:01:35.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:01:36.730000+08:00","text":"你用子法來凌駕第二項……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:01:36.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:01:37.410000+08:00","text":"沒有，所有的法規都是經過一定的程序產生……","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:01:38.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:01:38.330000+08:00","text":"一定的程序，但這就是法學的ABC啊！","quality":0.312},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:01:38.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:01:39.151000+08:00","text":"第三項是子法……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:01:39.151000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:01:40.151000+08:00","text":"如果在使用上跟實務上有執行上的困難，可以隨時調整，這沒有問題……","quality":0.036},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:01:39.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:01:41.212000+08:00","text":"子法牴觸法律規定，你為什麼需要去弄這樣的子法出來？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:01:41.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:01:58.319000+08:00","text":"沒有牴觸、沒有牴觸，第二項只是在公告得以使用在動物身上的人用藥品。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:01:59.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:02:17.224000+08:00","text":"我請教防檢署署長，在今天以前，獸醫師有人用藥物的使用權，但是他有沒有所有人用藥物的取得權？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"杜署長麗華","start":"2026-04-15T11:02:17.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:02:19.825000+08:00","text":"其實在目前的過渡時間，他使用都沒有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:02:21.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:02:22.663000+08:00","text":"使用沒有問題，取得啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:02:23.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:02:24.064000+08:00","text":"那些藥師……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:02:24.064000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:02:25.064000+08:00","text":"取得沒有問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜署長麗華","start":"2026-04-15T11:02:24.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:02:31.511000+08:00","text":"取得也沒有問題，目前在用的，取得也沒有問題，以目前當下在辦法沒有公布前，在……","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:02:32.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:02:33.913000+08:00","text":"取得沒有問題的法源依據是哪一條？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:02:33.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:02:35.134000+08:00","text":"取得沒有問題是根據動保法第四條第二項。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:02:43.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:02:46.852000+08:00","text":"如果動保法第四條第二項可以使用，為什麼你還要再訂定一個子法來凌駕母法？","quality":0.697},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:02:46.852000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:02:47.852000+08:00","text":"在今日之前都沒有問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:02:47.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:02:47.813000+08:00","text":"為什麼還要再修法，我不懂、我不懂，我完全不懂。","quality":0.368},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:02:47.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:02:50.575000+08:00","text":"今天會產生爭議的是第三項的授權辦法一旦實施之後，造成部分取得有問題，在沒有實施之前是沒有問題的。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:02:50.575000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:02:51.575000+08:00","text":"不是，你們現在不是已經戛然而止了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:02:51.575000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:02:52.575000+08:00","text":"7月1號的子法不是已經胎死腹中了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:02:51.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:02:53.017000+08:00","text":"如果按照委員的解釋的話，會造成很多寵物用藥的問題。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:02:53.017000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:02:59.402000+08:00","text":"如果按照第四條第二項就可以使用，為什麼還要修法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:02:59.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:03:05.787000+08:00","text":"根本就完全不用修法了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:03:05.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:03:12.172000+08:00","text":"根本就完全不用修法！","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:03:12.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:03:12.693000+08:00","text":"你完全誤解，您的認知有問題啦！","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:03:12.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:03:15.857000+08:00","text":"我覺得沒有誤解，我不接受這樣的指控，我完全不接受這樣的指控。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:03:15.857000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:03:16.857000+08:00","text":"第四條第三項的授權法規因為還沒有實施，所以目前取得上完全沒有問題。","quality":0.032},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:03:16.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:03:34.797000+08:00","text":"全國人民在看直播，我問一個問題，如果第四項第二項就可以作為獸醫師取得藥的法源依據，為什麼你還要去修第三項？","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:03:34.797000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:03:36.458000+08:00","text":"第三項的授權法規一旦實施，因為它將供應區為藥局供應跟藥商供應……","quality":0.103},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:03:36.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:03:38.719000+08:00","text":"而且現在根本就不用修法了啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:03:39.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:03:41.801000+08:00","text":"剛剛王育敏委員就有說第四條第二項既然可以使用，你就不用修法啦，不是這樣嗎？","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:03:41.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:03:42.941000+08:00","text":"我完全不理解，我完全不能夠理解！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:03:42.941000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:03:43.941000+08:00","text":"在目前沒有實施之前，取得沒有問題，但是因為我們要強化未來的管理規定，所以需要依照授權法規訂定使用管理規定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:03:42.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:04:01.380000+08:00","text":"部長，我想請問一件事，法規命令牴觸法律，請問一下是誰會無效？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:04:01.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:04:04.162000+08:00","text":"我想依您的法律背景，應該很清楚知道答案。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:04:05.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:04:06.424000+08:00","text":"但你不知道答案啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:04:06.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:04:07.845000+08:00","text":"我要跟你循循善誘啊……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:04:07.845000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:04:08.845000+08:00","text":"我知道答案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:04:08.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:04:09.606000+08:00","text":"應該是法規命令無效吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:04:09.606000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:04:11.147000+08:00","text":"當然，很清楚啊。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:04:11.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:04:14.109000+08:00","text":"第三項已經牴觸第二項了，第一，你為什麼要制定？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:04:14.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:04:16.010000+08:00","text":"沒有牴觸。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:04:16.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:04:18.972000+08:00","text":"哪裡沒有牴觸，你的子法就是讓大家……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:04:18.972000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:04:19.972000+08:00","text":"哪裡牴觸了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:04:19.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:04:20.414000+08:00","text":"請委員指教哪裡牴觸了？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:04:21.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:04:25.598000+08:00","text":"你的第二項，你一直說第二項是法源，第二項可以讓701項的藥品不只讓獸醫師使用，還可以讓他購買，第二項解釋出來是這樣的結果，可是你制定出來的子法卻是701項要區分為兩個部分，一個叫人用的藥物，一個叫做動保藥物，動保藥物才可以讓獸醫師去使用，完全是牴觸了第二項的規定啊！","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:04:25.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:04:26.078000+08:00","text":"那是一個使用管理辦法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:04:50.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:04:55.042000+08:00","text":"我不知道你為什麼要去制定一個牴觸母法第四條第二項的規定……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:04:55.042000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:04:56.042000+08:00","text":"沒有牴觸，請問哪裡牴觸了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:04:55.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:04:59.746000+08:00","text":"而且第四條第二項如果可以使用的話，為什麼你們現在要修法？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:05:00.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:05:04.290000+08:00","text":"如果第四條第二項可以使用，為什麼過去12年一直到今年完全都是紛擾的局面……","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:05:04.290000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:05:05.290000+08:00","text":"剛剛已經提到，現在這個辦法如果實施下去可能會造成在取得上的困難，並沒有牴觸授權的法規。","quality":0.025},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:05:04.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:05:06.271000+08:00","text":"我覺得部長你可能要去聽聽看獸醫師跟獸醫院的心聲，他們過去12年到現在，用藥就是非常模糊不清。","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:05:17.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:05:25.110000+08:00","text":"我聽得很清楚，所以才會去支持農業部先把這個辦法暫停，不要實施，然後重新再調整。","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:05:25.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:05:28.774000+08:00","text":"好，如果第四條第二項是法源，為什麼你還要修？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:05:29.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:05:32.619000+08:00","text":"我就問嘛，第四條第二項既然是法源，為什麼還要……","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:05:33.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:05:36.884000+08:00","text":"沒有要修法，我們講的是辦法，你講的是修法，這是兩回事啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:05:37.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:05:38.645000+08:00","text":"不是，是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:05:38.645000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:05:39.645000+08:00","text":"我們是要一個辦法，辦法又還沒有公告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:05:39.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:05:45.249000+08:00","text":"王育敏委員剛才問你說如果公告出來的都可以直接讓藥商去購買……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:05:45.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:05:46.249000+08:00","text":"這個辦法還沒有正式實施啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:05:45.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:05:52.473000+08:00","text":"所以你現在的意思就是只要set子法嘛，母法不用修了嘛，你的意思是這樣，因為母法已經有法源了嘛。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:05:52.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:05:56.976000+08:00","text":"母法不用修，動保法不用修啊，為什麼要修動保法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:05:58.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:09.583000+08:00","text":"因為動保法第二項只賦予獸醫師可使用人用藥物，並沒有授予獸醫師可以直接跟藥商買藥物。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:10.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:13.066000+08:00","text":"請問可以使用但是不能取得，怎麼使用？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:13.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:16.007000+08:00","text":"過去12年就是有這樣的紛擾啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:16.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:16.527000+08:00","text":"沒有問題啊，一直到今天啊。","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:16.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:24.869000+08:00","text":"也是因為有這樣的紛擾，所以最近才有這樣的新聞啊，這些飼主、獸醫師才會出來抗議，如果都沒有紛擾，請問你為什麼要修法？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:26.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:26.409000+08:00","text":"請問你為什麼要修法？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:26.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:27.749000+08:00","text":"我沒有要修法，我沒有要修法啊！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:28.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:30.430000+08:00","text":"你沒有要修法，好，我問你……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:31.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:36.791000+08:00","text":"我們現在談的是辦法，動保法是法律，我們現在談的是動保法還是授權辦法？","quality":0.677},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:37.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:40.933000+08:00","text":"好，我問你，你的子法要怎麼修？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:42.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:46.275000+08:00","text":"我們現在就是按照授權辦法，現在還沒有實施嘛，所以我剛剛已經提到那個不實施了……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:46.275000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:47.275000+08:00","text":"因為已經戛然而止了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:47.275000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:48.275000+08:00","text":"紛爭太多了嘛！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:46.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:47.095000+08:00","text":"所以我們現在要重新調整……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:47.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:47.515000+08:00","text":"調整的結果是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:47.515000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:48.515000+08:00","text":"這個辦法裡面還包含了人用藥品歸類的問題，還有申請時要檢附的相關程序、文件……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:47.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:48.636000+08:00","text":"調整的結果是獸醫師都可以直接跟藥商買藥物嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:48.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:49.876000+08:00","text":"相關的一些使用規定要重新檢討啦。不是。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:06:50.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:06:51.457000+08:00","text":"部長，好，現在你的子法已經戛然而止了，現在子法的方向是什麼？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:07:11.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:07:14.989000+08:00","text":"這個授權辦法的訂定當然是主管機關跟我們來會銜訂定，所以相關細節的部分，我們之後都會再進行法規預告，都會重新進行法規預告的程序。","quality":0.661},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:07:15.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:07:16.731000+08:00","text":"我問你，在子法裡頭，你會不會規定所有公告的藥物，獸醫都可以直接購買？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:07:26.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:07:27.683000+08:00","text":"子法會不會修成……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:07:27.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:07:35.708000+08:00","text":"我們還會再找獸醫師還有相關的stakeholder來討論，然後這個法規也必須經過預告的程序。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:07:36.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:07:44.933000+08:00","text":"我只能說，部長，你真的非常不食人間煙火，你不知道從過去2012年一直到今天2026年，飼主跟獸醫師對於沒有辦法直接取得藥物的困擾……","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:07:44.933000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:07:46.374000+08:00","text":"我只知道在今日之前所有獸醫師取得這些寵物的用藥沒有問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:07:46.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:07:47.815000+08:00","text":"大家都覺得沒有法源、業務範圍模糊，今天你竟然告訴我們第四條第二項就是法源，如果第四條第二項就是法源，為什麼……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:07:47.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:07:50.417000+08:00","text":"委員，我們最大的差異是，我認為在今日之前，這些獸醫師取得藥品沒有問題，但是您認為有問題。","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:08:04.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:08:06.269000+08:00","text":"他取得藥品怎麼會沒有問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:08:06.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:08:06.609000+08:00","text":"現在的機制不就是……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:08:06.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:08:07.870000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，現在這個沒有問題，現在完全可以合法去取得。","quality":0.478},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:08:08.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:08:08.910000+08:00","text":"請問一下，為什麼過去12年有這些紛擾？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:08:08.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:08:09.210000+08:00","text":"沒有紛擾，過去12年沒有紛擾……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:08:09.210000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:08:10.210000+08:00","text":"如果只有你認為大家沒有問題，大家是吃飽撐著沒事幹……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:08:09.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:08:10.231000+08:00","text":"紛擾會產生是7月1號如果實施的話，才會有紛擾，目前不會有紛擾。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:08:10.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:08:24.538000+08:00","text":"你們的子法為什麼會戛然而止？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:08:24.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:08:25.079000+08:00","text":"你回答我，為什麼你們不修子法了？","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:08:25.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:08:25.499000+08:00","text":"因為我們認為7月1號實施會有紛擾，現在沒有紛擾……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:08:26.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:08:26.279000+08:00","text":"什麼紛擾？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:08:26.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:08:27.879000+08:00","text":"你告訴我什麼紛擾，你就告訴我什麼紛擾，7月1號實施的子法會有什麼紛擾？","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:08:27.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:08:51.416000+08:00","text":"因為現在沒有強制規定分成兩類，一種是由藥商直接供應，一種是由藥局供應，目前沒有這樣分，都可以，7月1號的辦法實施之後就分流，一種只能藥商供應，一種只能藥局供應，這個在實施上確實會造成紛擾，所以我們才要做調整。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:08:51.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:08:52.417000+08:00","text":"請問一下防檢署，是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:08:52.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:08:53.017000+08:00","text":"告訴我們答案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜署長麗華","start":"2026-04-15T11:09:01.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:09:05.168000+08:00","text":"這是問題的其一，部長講的也是其中的一項……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:09:05.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:09:06.169000+08:00","text":"一項怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜署長麗華","start":"2026-04-15T11:09:06.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:09:16.135000+08:00","text":"像現在在這個辦法裡面有關人的用藥，人的用藥要經過登錄以後才能轉為動保用藥，所以這個會……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:09:16.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:09:19.197000+08:00","text":"我不跟你討論7月1號的，我跟你討論現行的。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:09:20.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:09:20.397000+08:00","text":"現行的沒有問題。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"杜署長麗華","start":"2026-04-15T11:09:20.397000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:09:22.919000+08:00","text":"現行的沒有問題，現行的都是這樣來執行。","quality":0.176},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:09:22.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:09:28.322000+08:00","text":"請問一下藥商的部分，獸醫師要如何取得？有，在……","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:09:28.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:09:29.463000+08:00","text":"就是藥商的這701種藥，現行規定是都可以跟藥商買嗎？","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"杜署長麗華","start":"2026-04-15T11:09:29.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:09:31.305000+08:00","text":"報告委員，目前暫行是藥商直接可以供應給獸醫院，目前執行是這樣的。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:09:31.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:09:32.586000+08:00","text":"如果是這樣，為什麼要修第四條第二項？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"杜署長麗華","start":"2026-04-15T11:09:47.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:09:48.290000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有、沒有，不是，因為第四條第三項……","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:09:48.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:09:53.573000+08:00","text":"如果第四條第二項已經是法源了……第四條第二項已經是法源了。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:09:53.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:09:53.653000+08:00","text":"沒有要修法啊！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"杜署長麗華","start":"2026-04-15T11:09:53.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:10:29.515000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，現在是這個管理辦法裡面，當時的架構上是說人藥歸人藥，動保用藥需要動保用藥的機制去管它，所以你要人用到登錄為動保用藥才可以使用，但也因為時空背景改變跟實際上真的會限制到目前他們做治療上使用的便利性和即時性，所以才會做大幅度的修正，往更完善的方向來走。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:10:30.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:10:40.242000+08:00","text":"我覺得我們的官員跟民間獸醫師、飼主的認知完全不一樣，完全是兩個平行時空，如果今天不是取得藥物有困難的話，為什麼會有這麼沉痛的發聲？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:10:40.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:10:51.669000+08:00","text":"為什麼他們在4月10日的公聽會讓你們招架不住，然後讓整個子法的實施戛然而止？不是。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"杜署長麗華","start":"2026-04-15T11:10:52.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:11:20.738000+08:00","text":"報告委員，針對這一個辦法來搜集大家的意見，確實覺得有窒礙難行，有些結還是要打開，所以才會慎重重視這個議題，要重新來制定一個法規命令的辦法，依照一些相關不管是動物保護法或其他的，能夠讓我們現在的制度可以……","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:11:20.738000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:11:21.738000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:11:20.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:11:29.061000+08:00","text":"請食藥署署長，有關藥事法第五十條，可以供應藥品的，請你唸一下好嗎？","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:11:29.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:11:30.141000+08:00","text":"第二款有哪些地方？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:11:31.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:11:33.702000+08:00","text":"好，我幫你唸，「醫院、診所及機關、團體、學校之醫療機構或檢驗及學術研究機構之購買」，請問這裡有提到獸醫院嗎？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-04-15T11:11:41.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:12:14.388000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，您剛才提到的項次上面都有寫好，對於人用藥品要供到動物醫院裡面，在108年5月21日FDA藥字第1089014612號函知藥業公協會，於防檢署人用藥品用於犬貓及非經濟動物之使用管理辦法正式實施前，現在就是正式實施前，藥商仍可供應人用藥品予動物機構，惟應遵循相關的事項。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-04-15T11:12:14.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:12:29.841000+08:00","text":"表示說沒有實施之前其實都是可以供的，所以這一點就是，因為預告本來好像是在7月1日，所以就會有一些改變，這個改變在7月1日還沒到之前其實都還沒發生，都可以供應。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:12:30.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:12:33.863000+08:00","text":"如果是這樣的話，請問藥事法要不要修？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:12:34.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:12:38.546000+08:00","text":"因為你那個只是行政函釋，你的行政函釋會不會有牴觸藥事法之虞？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:12:38.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:12:40.186000+08:00","text":"你的行政函釋是不是要修？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-04-15T11:12:41.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:12:50.289000+08:00","text":"我想剛才部長也特別提到了，藥事法沒有規定的地方，其實在動保法裡面有相關規定的時候，它就可以按照那部分得到一些供藥，我們會去制定辦法出來。好。","quality":0.672},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:12:50.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:12:55.911000+08:00","text":"我現在請問一下，我們的衛福部推給農業部去修法嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:12:56.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:12:59.512000+08:00","text":"請問動保法裡頭，可不可以來一條叫做「不受藥事法第五十條的限制」？","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:01.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:02.333000+08:00","text":"可不可以來一條這樣的？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:02.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:06.636000+08:00","text":"因為完全就是受藥事法第五十條的限制。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:09.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:19.867000+08:00","text":"動保法第四條的第二項裡面，當動物用藥不足之時，其實已經寫得很清楚了，不足的時候可以用人藥過去協助。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:20.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:20.767000+08:00","text":"就是不足啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:20.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:21.188000+08:00","text":"現況就是不足啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:21.188000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:22.188000+08:00","text":"對，所以法源已經有了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:21.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:21.948000+08:00","text":"所以是可以用人藥啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:24.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:25.971000+08:00","text":"所以法源已經有了。對啊！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:26.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:26.992000+08:00","text":"法源已經有了，可以用人藥……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:26.992000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:27.992000+08:00","text":"對，所以有了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:27.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:30.074000+08:00","text":"就是取得會受到藥事法第五十條的限制啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:30.074000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:31.074000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:30.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:31.735000+08:00","text":"所以第五十條也要連帶修法。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:32.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:34.876000+08:00","text":"你剛剛講的函釋，其實你們已經認同嘛！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:35.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:41.941000+08:00","text":"只是法規沒有相對應的被印上來，如果衛福部這邊不想動你們寶貴的藥事法，可不可以來動一下動保法？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:42.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:52.667000+08:00","text":"可是動保法要寫一句話叫做「不受藥事法第五十條的限制」，你要這樣做，法源才清楚，你不能夠用牴觸藥事法的函釋在行事，好嗎？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:53.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:54.889000+08:00","text":"我們覺得法源非常清楚了。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:56.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:13:57.671000+08:00","text":"如果法源清楚，為什麼要第四條第二……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:13:57.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:01.314000+08:00","text":"現在沒有問題，所以現在沒有要修動保法嘛！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:01.314000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:02.314000+08:00","text":"如果法源……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:01.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:02.615000+08:00","text":"現在要修訂的是還沒有實施的這個辦法。好。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:02.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:04.937000+08:00","text":"我現在請問一個問題，第四條第二項如果可以解讀成他有跟藥商買藥的權限，如果可以解讀的話，這個前提你們認同嘛！","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:05.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:22.751000+08:00","text":"為什麼你們7月1日制定的辦法卻是兩套標準，而其中有一套去牴觸母法的規定？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:23.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:24.432000+08:00","text":"你們承不承認你們的子法有問題？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:24.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:27.234000+08:00","text":"沒有，它只是管理上把它分流。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:27.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:27.554000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:27.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:28.495000+08:00","text":"就不能買啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:28.495000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:29.495000+08:00","text":"我們現在還沒有實施之前……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:28.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:30.776000+08:00","text":"只有被劃為動保藥物才能夠去跟藥商買。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:30.776000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:31.776000+08:00","text":"我們就先停止，然後再重新去檢討……","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:30.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:31.457000+08:00","text":"以你們的解釋，701項現在全都可以買……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:31.457000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:38.141000+08:00","text":"回到第四條第二項的法源就可以同意嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:38.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:44.285000+08:00","text":"你們的子法把701項區分為兩種，只有144項才可以跟藥商買……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:44.285000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:45.285000+08:00","text":"目前的授權法律，取得都沒有問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:44.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:45.085000+08:00","text":"我現在就不懂啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:45.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:46.066000+08:00","text":"你的子法為什麼……","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:46.066000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:47.066000+08:00","text":"不是像您所認知的這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:46.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:51.449000+08:00","text":"你們怎麼頭腦不清楚，去制定了一個牴觸現行就可以701項完全購買的法規。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:14:51.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:14:59.459000+08:00","text":"沒有牴觸、沒有牴觸，完全沒有牴觸。好。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:15:00.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:15:09.844000+08:00","text":"另外一個問題，我不想跟你逞口舌之爭，反正這是直播的，大家有眼睛、有耳朵，看得一清二楚，聽得非常地清晰，我不想爭執。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:15:09.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:15:15.567000+08:00","text":"我想問一件事，給動物用的用藥可不可以負面表列？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:15:16.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:15:21.041000+08:00","text":"因為目前的701項算是正面表列，可不可以負面表列？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:15:21.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:15:27.022000+08:00","text":"我想法規上您最清楚，在第四條第二項的寫法是正向表列。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:15:27.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:15:33.324000+08:00","text":"我那麼清楚，還被你花了20分鐘的時間不斷地打臉，這是你口中清楚的我嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:15:33.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:15:43.026000+08:00","text":"您非常地清楚，在第四條這邊寫得很清楚，在動保法第四條第二項它是公告人用藥品類別，這是正向表列的寫法。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:15:44.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:15:46.944000+08:00","text":"你也可以解讀成是負向表列啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:15:46.944000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:15:47.944000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:15:47.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:15:53.988000+08:00","text":"你也可以解讀成負向表列，法律的解釋本來就是有擴張解釋……","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:15:53.988000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:15:54.988000+08:00","text":"您可以把這個文字再唸一遍，就是這個意思。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:15:53.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:15:57.630000+08:00","text":"限縮解釋、目的性解釋、合憲式解釋啊！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:15:58.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:03.753000+08:00","text":"你也可以解釋成負面，你現在不想負面就告訴我說法條看起來是正面，哪裡有「正面」這兩個字？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:04.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:06.515000+08:00","text":"你不是說我頭腦很清楚，法學很清楚？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:06.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:08.016000+08:00","text":"我的法律見解就在這邊啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:08.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:09.196000+08:00","text":"好，我收回我剛剛的說法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:10.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:17.847000+08:00","text":"我覺得你要收回的可能不是只有這一句，可能是從鳴槍起跑一直到現在，你每一句話都要收回。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:18.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:22.594000+08:00","text":"部長，我問你一個問題，現在飼主跟獸醫的心聲你到底有沒有掌握？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:22.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:23.676000+08:00","text":"掌握到哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:23.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:24.777000+08:00","text":"請你分享給我知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:25.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:36.604000+08:00","text":"我們支持目前主管機關所公告的701項所有人用藥品持續地使用在動物身上，這就是我們的立場。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:36.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:37.764000+08:00","text":"持續地使用在動物身上。對。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:38.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:39.145000+08:00","text":"取藥權呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:39.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:40.545000+08:00","text":"沒有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:40.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:41.825000+08:00","text":"也可以跟藥商取得藥物？可以。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:43.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:43.625000+08:00","text":"法源依據呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:44.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:45.386000+08:00","text":"第四條第二項。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:45.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:49.046000+08:00","text":"法源依據如果是第四條第二項，這就夠啦！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:50.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:51.487000+08:00","text":"為什麼還要再弄子法？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:52.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:54.654000+08:00","text":"子法是在第三項。對啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:55.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:16:59.741000+08:00","text":"所以是由主管機關依照第四條第三項再去訂使用管理規定。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:16:59.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:01.022000+08:00","text":"所以現在就有法源了，你為什麼說……","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:17:01.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:05.721000+08:00","text":"取得跟使用管理是兩回事。好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:17:06.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:19.633000+08:00","text":"我問你一件事，7月1日你們把它分流為兩種，一種叫人用藥物，飼主要去藥局購買；一個叫動保藥物，可以讓獸醫師直接取得，你們分成A、B兩套嘛！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:17:20.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:27.680000+08:00","text":"你的A、B兩套不是牴觸你所謂的701項大開方便之門的現行法第四條第二項嗎？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:17:27.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:29.042000+08:00","text":"那叫做使用管理規定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:17:30.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:33.667000+08:00","text":"子法牴觸母法，請問部長知道是什麼效果嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:17:33.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:34.467000+08:00","text":"沒有牴觸啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:17:34.467000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:35.467000+08:00","text":"就沒有實施，沒有實施怎麼牴觸？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:17:34.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:36.007000+08:00","text":"哪裡沒有牴觸？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:17:36.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:38.007000+08:00","text":"你本來701……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:17:38.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:40.248000+08:00","text":"目前就沒有實施，怎麼會牴觸？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:17:40.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:44.028000+08:00","text":"你的意思是有牴觸只是沒實施，你講話要精確啊！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:17:44.028000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:45.028000+08:00","text":"就沒有牴觸啊！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:17:44.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:49.009000+08:00","text":"當時候訂的時候，也是主管機關邀請了很多的單位，大家一起討論過……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:17:49.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:50.469000+08:00","text":"所以你現在是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:17:50.469000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:51.469000+08:00","text":"經過法制的程序啊！對啊！","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:17:51.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:54.850000+08:00","text":"你現在為什麼懸崖勒馬、戛然而止，讓它胎死腹中？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:17:54.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:17:59.051000+08:00","text":"剛剛提到，這個是造成在使用上取得的一些不便利性，所以重新檢討。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:18:02.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:18:03.889000+08:00","text":"主席已經站起來了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-15T11:18:04.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:18:09.291000+08:00","text":"並不是牴觸母法而不實施，是在實施上的方便性要檢討。好。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:18:09.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:18:22.476000+08:00","text":"我現在最後一句話，因為主席已經站起來，主席其實給我們很充裕的攻防時間，也謝謝主席讓我跟部長的對話能夠呈現在世人的眼前，我想就交給大眾公評。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:18:23.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:18:24.457000+08:00","text":"我最後只講一句話，為什麼會引起這樣軒然大波？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:18:24.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:18:39.468000+08:00","text":"就是從2012年一直到現今，已經快14年了，關於飼主跟獸醫他們要取得藥物困難重重，有些甚至是去偷買。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:18:39.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:18:41.491000+08:00","text":"好，我現在直接講一句啦！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:18:41.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:18:44.214000+08:00","text":"如果可以取得藥物，請問一下，為什麼藥商害怕賣給這些獸醫師呢？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:18:44.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:18:44.234000+08:00","text":"請問為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:18:49.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:18:55.767000+08:00","text":"如果今天是合法可以取得，為什麼有我講2012年的前提，就是害怕賣給獸醫師呢？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:18:56.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:18:58.009000+08:00","text":"這個問題好好去思考一下就好了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:18:58.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:18:59.371000+08:00","text":"好，沒有問題。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:18:59.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:19:07.380000+08:00","text":"反正我今天兩個訴求，第一個訴求就是希望能夠負面表列，但是部長顯然不認同，收回他的話。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:19:07.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:19:19.611000+08:00","text":"第二個訴求就是我們希望能夠修法，有一個長治久安的基礎，不再困擾飼主跟獸醫師，而且讓我們毛小孩的健康權、生命權、用藥權能夠得到最大的保障。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-15T11:19:20.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:19:20.432000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T11:19:20.932000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:19:23.789143+08:00","text":"謝謝邱慧洳委員的質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T11:19:24.089143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:19:25.803429+08:00","text":"現在休息10分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T11:19:26.103429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:19:27.246286+08:00","text":"休息（11時19分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T11:19:27.546286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:19:29.260571+08:00","text":"繼續開會（11時29分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T11:19:29.560571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:19:31.274857+08:00","text":"現在繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T11:19:31.574857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:19:33.860571+08:00","text":"請廖偉翔委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}