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宣傳考量 大家都知道這我們稱之為戰爭的迷霧 都有一些這種地方但實際的考量還是回到上面來 大家都還是希望能夠維持赫姆斯海峽對全球經濟的重要性但現在有一些是不是所有的國家都願意參與 大家的想法是什麼樣"},{"start":228.51,"end":246.751,"text":"所以我們都在努力的這個觀察,但是對台灣來說現在最重要的一個工作的重點大概第一個還是一樣,這個保護我們僑民的一個利益,人身安全與利益第二個是在於確保我們的能源公願無虞,那麼這是一個經濟部的一個,現在也都做,我們在跨部會的協調沒關係,能源穩定待會我問經濟部,我問國發會"},{"start":248.733,"end":275.601,"text":"我再額外問一個問題我們前面也有委員有講說是在昨天的質詢的時候有提到說我們應該要主動爭取我們也要去協助掃雷啊那這件事情已經形成中華民國的官方立場了嗎沒有欸那就是說這是一個現在也沒有人表達需要我們去做這樣的一個事情那我覺得這是一個很有趣的這個在戰略上面大的戰略上面一個提法你也覺得很有創意就對了"},{"start":277.029,"end":301.895,"text":"這有各種各樣的刑法很有創意但是我們在外交上面都還是比較謹慎小心比較這個嚴謹來看待這樣的一個對謹慎小心嚴謹才是對的是我們都是外交相關訓練出身都知道外交存在的用意就是避免衝突不要不希望這些東西我們希望都能夠用透過談的方式而不是透過戰的方式來解決好希望這個談判能夠順利好陳市長請回辛苦了來這個經濟部跟國發會麻煩一下好謝謝"},{"start":305.876,"end":308.259,"text":"這段時間CNN有相關的報導就是說看著赫姆斯海峽的這樣子的一個狀況對於台灣的啟示這寫的是蠻入骨蠻危險的也就是說類似的封鎖行動不管它的強度是怎麼樣一旦發生了很有可能對於我們的"},{"start":328.359,"end":346.71,"text":"這個戰備能源造成立即性的衝擊也就是說它裡面的說法是天然氣的儲量11天11天之後就會開始出現電力短缺等等它會衝擊我們的這個半導體的生產啊甚至是影響民生基礎用電等等造成很嚴重的衝擊經濟部對於這樣子的一個報導有什麼樣要回應的嗎國防衛生經濟部都可以回應 來"},{"start":348.45,"end":365.143,"text":"我想針對能源安全部分都一直是在能源政策努力的一個目標所以我們透過能源多元化我想不只是能源種類還包含來源的多元化所以這次的一個經驗其實讓我們其實應該會更加速我們在來源多元化的一個佈局來提高整個能源的一個韌性"},{"start":366.229,"end":382.538,"text":"之前來源多元化第一次討論的時候其實是在烏俄戰爭爆發因為過去就是很集中然後你做了一個分散化但你可能運氣不太好啦一分散之後我增加了來自中東的來源然後中東就出事了當然分散風險是沒有錯的好那我順著這個話題往下走這一次啊"},{"start":382.918,"end":407.714,"text":"就因為我們現在也跟中東進口了很多的原油嘛當然是在你分散風險這樣一個大戰略之下但現在荷姆茲海峽出事啦那剛剛情勢我剛剛跟外交部有討論過嘛你也知道最新的狀況是美國宣布封鎖但是有部分的船隻可以通過那請問具體來講現在的情勢下面這個台海 台灣啦這個是否有這個原油等等相關原料的供應商因為現在的形勢受到影響經濟部有沒有掌握或國防部有沒有掌握"},{"start":408.941,"end":436.064,"text":"目前其實我們國內的原油進口主要來自於中油跟台塑那中油部分我想我們就一直在解決就是中油那個本來打算從中東進口會經過橫浦之海峽的一個替代方案所以剛剛如同報告我們增加非中東地區包含像美國澳洲的一個進口或甚至是我們不要走橫浦之海峽走類似像阿曼灣等等其他進口的一個管道來解決有關可能的一個之前的一個缺口問題"},{"start":437.014,"end":454.28,"text":"所以到底有影響沒有?我問你是現在的情勢嗎?目前我們掌握到6月我去到封完換美國封這樣的狀況、情況之下你過不過來?目前有部分我想我們都已經掌握足夠一個TI-8那TI-7已經掌握到6月底的部分來源應該都沒有問題來源都沒有問題?是這國發會我問一下好了"},{"start":457.721,"end":486.256,"text":"剛剛有提到我們原油進口最大的兩家一家叫中油一家叫台塑當然中油是國營公司台塑是民營公司現在我們因應原物料的一個短缺的狀況當然我們為了要平抑物價所以政府第一時間針對中油我用動漲的方式當然我國營企業我不管是財政作戰或者是政策補貼是很方便的我想問一下對於民營企業的影響比如說台塑在這裡面的角色是什麼他因應這樣的事情他會不會受到一定的衝擊"},{"start":487.857,"end":498.335,"text":"這個他有沒有拿到比如說相關的一些補貼或者是補償這樣的一個狀況沒關係你們誰要講都可以因為我想是不是屬於經濟部的範疇經濟部的範疇好吧那就經濟部多擔待吧沒關係有人可以回答就好"},{"start":498.915,"end":528.164,"text":"跟我們報告其實台塑在目前國內的油品市場其實只佔國內內需的兩成左右所以它的一個供給部分其實國內價格對它影響並不太大它主要是以出口為主那出口因為這因為中東戰爭所以整個國際的價格其實變好對它來講其實是有它的一個營收的一個獲利的一個情況不過因為我們也希望它畢竟是國內的一個企業所以至少它國內的部分還要先滿足內需為主然後有餘額的話再出口"},{"start":528.564,"end":548.367,"text":"所以目前是我們是這樣子來跟台塑來做討論這本期有觀察到這件事或者是我擔心這件事的原因就是因為中油跟台塑當然做一樣的事情但是體質上是不一樣的如果我們在政策上面的一些協助或者是資源只側重在這邊的話會變成民營企業的狀況是我當然在市場競爭的過程或者什麼我當然是要對標這個也要配合政府的政策嘛"},{"start":548.807,"end":567.709,"text":"所以我的價格當然是不能拉高了可是我的成本還是拉高了那從這個正常市場將本求利的過程來看他很有可能就是那我可能因為這樣的狀況我生產越多但我必須要降價這個來賣可能生產越多賣越多他有沒有可能會因為這樣我降低生產的量能我減產或者是暫時不處理有沒有可能會有這樣的一些狀況"},{"start":569.079,"end":591.232,"text":"因為我目前掌握他的狀況其實因為他之前有存量再加上其實那個台塑他目前進口的狀況的影響並沒有那麼大當然還是有影響不過他還是有其他替代方案可是替代方案對他的整體的進口成本影響並沒有那麼大所以目前他我想在穩定國內的那個油價狀況之下他衝擊應該是因為如同剛剛講他在國內的內需市場的占比並不高"},{"start":594.656,"end":618.767,"text":"好沒關係這相信因為今天時間到了大家都很趕還有委員在等待這相關的就是你在油價補貼的政策上面針對不同的性質你要如何來做一個平衡我希望你會提供一個比較完整的書面報告給我因為我擔心的是如果因為這樣的成本然後又要配合動漲的政策然後他老是說我用減產的方式我要來平息損失或者是產線調動等等然後他間接影響塑膠袋等等我想這對於國內都不是一件好事"},{"start":619.327,"end":646.117,"text":"這跨國裡面這針對特殊狀況的補貼政策它其實是不分國營跟民營的我覺得這部分應該要做一下通盤的思考但沒關係我覺得這件事情要詳細討論嘛所以你把相關的一些數據資料跟溝通的狀況做一下整理跟本席的辦公室做一下對話這樣可以嗎好 這有勞經濟部好不好國發會雖然沒有回答到但沒關係啦這個我想也是重大政策不管是情勢的變遷也好或者是一些政策的配套的規劃我們都希望可以更加周延希望可以平安的度過這個難關 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:31:59.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:32:00.036000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:32:00.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:32:00.236000+08:00","text":"外交部陳次長有請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T11:32:00.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:32:00.276000+08:00","text":"有請陳次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T11:32:00.276000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:32:01.276000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:32:00.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:32:00.497000+08:00","text":"次長午安。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:32:00.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:32:28.751000+08:00","text":"剛好今天早上開始開會的時候，本席也在場，當時馬召委詢及報告這一次比較晚這件事情的時候，我聽到你在臺下有講，你說因為這個局勢變化瞬息萬變，因為瞬息萬變，所以要更新最新的資訊，所以稍微晚了一點交。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:32:29.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:32:34.734000+08:00","text":"不過我看你這個內容報告，好像沒有更新到最新的程序，你是不是要清楚說明一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:32:35.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:32:49.781000+08:00","text":"因為我們今天討論的，當然就是中東戰況對於區域政經情勢的一些影響，你的報告裡面寫了很多，包含從衝突開始，一路寫到和談等等，但是好像就到那裡為止。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:32:50.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:32:59.551000+08:00","text":"不過大家都很清楚，現在荷姆茲海峽最新的狀況是美國宣布要封鎖，可是我看你整本報告裡面都隻字未提。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:33:00.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:33:08.040000+08:00","text":"如果照你在臺下所講的，你說是為了要更新到最新的情況，所以報告要晚一點交，結果你的報告裡面沒有寫到最新的情況，我是覺得這樣有點奇怪。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:33:08.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:33:15.328000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我給你補充說明的機會，你就在這裡跟大家報告一下最新的情勢是什麼、這樣子的情勢對於總體的內容跟影響，請簡要報告。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T11:33:20.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:33:56.617000+08:00","text":"是，就荷姆茲海峽情勢，因為這個事關我們的能源安全跟其他整個地緣政治相關的狀況，現在新的狀況說美國宣布封鎖荷姆茲海峽，其實這是一個比較籠統的說法，根據美國中央軍區的說法，其實是對於伊朗沿岸進行登臨檢查的做法，即使是現在這樣宣布之後，我們根據相關的資訊顯示，仍然有少數的船隻進出，現在新的狀況大致上是這個樣子。","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T11:33:57.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:34:13.544000+08:00","text":"所以，你可以說是兩邊開始都有一些動作，但是大家都體會到這個荷姆茲海峽對於全世界、全球經濟的重要性，然後美國也宣布這兩天還會繼續有第二輪的和談。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T11:34:13.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:34:18.967000+08:00","text":"我們是密切觀察、關注相關的發展，隨時更新這個情資。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T11:34:20.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:34:30.896000+08:00","text":"向委員報告，像上次第一輪的談判，在談十幾、20個小時之後就宣布破裂，這都是發生在週末的時候，它一直都在變化。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:34:31.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:34:32.497000+08:00","text":"一直都在變化，若你把剛剛這些都寫進報告裡面，你講的話都還對得上。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:34:36.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:34:37.861000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，我就提醒你而已。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:34:38.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:34:41.123000+08:00","text":"那未來的情勢判斷上，我們外交部現在的掌握呢？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:34:41.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:34:59.294000+08:00","text":"你剛剛講，第一輪談判很快的破裂了，你目前觀察到的情勢，各方雖然嘴巴上好像都講得很大聲，但實務上來講，動作上看起來其實還是稍微有收斂、有留點空間，所以，你對他們第二輪的和談，依部長的判斷或者是我們外交部總體對於情勢的掌握，你的預判是什麼？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T11:35:01.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:35:09.022000+08:00","text":"國際最重要的一個戰略思考家──克勞塞維茲說所謂的戰爭都是政治的延伸，他還是要達到他的政治目的。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T11:35:09.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:35:21.413000+08:00","text":"我想，就這個事情上面來說，大家都有比較務實之處，所以在這個務實的基礎上面，雖然說大家會說一些比較……因為戰爭它有一個需要，一定會有一些比較……","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:35:22.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:35:23.374000+08:00","text":"士氣考量、宣傳考量。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T11:35:25.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:35:45.930000+08:00","text":"士氣考量、宣傳考量，我們稱之為所謂戰爭的迷霧，都會有這一些因素，但是，就實際來說，我想實際的考量還是回到這個上面，大家都還是希望能夠維持荷姆茲海峽對全球經濟的重要性，但現在有一些說法是說是不是所有的國家都願意參與、大家的想法是怎麼樣……","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:35:45.930000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:35:46.930000+08:00","text":"還要努力一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T11:35:46.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:35:48.673000+08:00","text":"所以我們都在努力的觀察。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T11:35:48.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:36:03.470000+08:00","text":"但是對臺灣來說，現在最重要的工作重點：第一個，還是一樣，就是保護我們僑民的人身安全與利益；第二個是在於確保我們的能源供應無虞，這是經濟部目前在做的……我們也有做跨部會的協調。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:36:03.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:36:04.751000+08:00","text":"沒關係，能源穩定的部分待會我會問經濟部、問國發會。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:36:06.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:36:20.117000+08:00","text":"我再額外問一個問題，昨天也有委員在質詢時提到我們應該要主動爭取、我們也要去協助掃雷，這件事情已經形成中華民國的官方立場了嗎？沒有。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T11:36:22.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:36:32.780000+08:00","text":"現在也沒有人表達需要我們去做這樣的一件事，我覺得這是很有趣的、在大的戰略上面的一個提法。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:36:32.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:36:33.581000+08:00","text":"你也覺得很有創意就對了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T11:36:35.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:36:42.891000+08:00","text":"就是有各種各樣的想法很有創意，但是我們在外交上面都還是比較謹慎小心，嚴謹看待各種各樣……","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:36:44.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:36:45.692000+08:00","text":"對、謹慎小心、嚴謹才是對的。是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:36:46.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:36:52.313000+08:00","text":"我們都是外交相關訓練出身，都知道外交存在的用意就是避免衝突，不希望這些東西……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-04-15T11:36:52.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:36:57.494000+08:00","text":"我們希望都能夠透過談的方式，而不是透過戰的方式來解決。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:36:57.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:36:58.975000+08:00","text":"好，希望這個談判能夠順利。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:36:59.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:36:59.535000+08:00","text":"陳次長請回，辛苦了。謝謝。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:36:59.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:36:59.795000+08:00","text":"麻煩經濟部跟國發會。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T11:36:59.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:36:59.895000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T11:36:59.895000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:37:01.885500+08:00","text":"經濟部、國發會，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊主任秘書銘池","start":"2026-04-15T11:37:01.885500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:37:03.876000+08:00","text":"委員好。你好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:37:03.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:37:41.468000+08:00","text":"這段時間CNN有相關的報導，就是說看著荷姆茲海峽這樣子的狀況對臺灣的啟示，講的蠻入骨、蠻危險的，也就是說類似的封鎖行動，不管它的強度是怎麼樣，一旦發生了，很有可能對我們的戰備能源造成立即性的衝擊，其中的說法是天然氣的儲量11天，11天之後就會開始出現電力短缺等等，它會衝擊我們半導體的生產，甚至是影響民生機組用電等等，造成嚴重的衝擊。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:37:41.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:37:43.890000+08:00","text":"經濟部對於這樣子的報導有什麼要回應的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:37:43.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:37:44.710000+08:00","text":"國發會、經濟部都可以回應。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"莊主任秘書銘池","start":"2026-04-15T11:37:46.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:38:03.123000+08:00","text":"我想針對能源安全部分，一直都是能源政策在努力的一個目標，所以我們透過能源多元化因應，我想不只是能源種類還包含來源的多元化，所以這次的一個經驗其實應該會讓我們更加速我們在來源多元化的布局，以提高整個能源的韌性。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:38:04.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:38:17.696000+08:00","text":"之前來源多元化第一次討論的時候，其實是在烏俄戰爭爆發，因為過去就是很集中，然後你做了分散化，但可能運氣不太好，一分散之後，我們增加了來自中東的來源，然後中東就出事了，當然分散風險是沒有錯的。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:38:17.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:38:33.946000+08:00","text":"好，我順著這個話題往下走，這一次因為我們現在也跟中東進口了很多原油，當然這是在你分散風險的這個大戰略之下，但現在荷姆茲海峽出事了，那情勢部分我剛剛也有跟外交部討論過，你也知道最新的狀況是美國宣布封鎖，但是有部分的船隻可以通過。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:38:34.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:38:44.533000+08:00","text":"請問具體來講，現在的情勢下，臺灣是否有原油等相關原料供應商因為現在的形勢而受到影響？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:38:44.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:38:45.694000+08:00","text":"經濟部有沒有掌握或國發會有沒有掌握？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"莊主任秘書銘池","start":"2026-04-15T11:38:46.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:38:51.125000+08:00","text":"目前我們國內的原油進口主要來自於中油跟台塑。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"莊主任秘書銘池","start":"2026-04-15T11:38:51.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:39:14.064000+08:00","text":"中油的部分，我想我們就一直在解決，就是中油本來打算從中東進口會經過荷姆茲海峽的一個替代方案，所以剛剛如同報告，我們增加非中東地區包含像美國、澳洲的進口，甚至是我們不要走荷姆茲海峽，走類似像阿曼灣等等其他進口的管道，解決之前可能有缺口的問題。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:39:15.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:39:16.054000+08:00","text":"所以到底有沒有影響？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:39:16.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:39:17.575000+08:00","text":"我問你的是依照現在的情勢。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊主任秘書銘池","start":"2026-04-15T11:39:17.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:39:18.535000+08:00","text":"目前我們掌握到……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:39:18.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:39:23.357000+08:00","text":"伊朗封完了，換美國封，在這樣的狀況之下，到底過不過得來？","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"莊主任秘書銘池","start":"2026-04-15T11:39:23.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:39:31.360000+08:00","text":"目前原油部分，我想我們都已經掌握足夠的替代方案，天然氣已經掌握到6月底的部分，來源應該都沒有問題。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:39:31.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:39:31.720000+08:00","text":"來源都沒有問題？好。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:39:31.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:39:40.163000+08:00","text":"我問一下國發會，剛剛有提到我們原油進口最大的兩家，一家叫中油，一家叫台塑，對不對？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:39:41.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:39:57.092000+08:00","text":"中油是國營公司，台塑是民營公司，現在我們因應原物料短缺的一個狀況，當然，我們為了要平抑物價，所以政府第一時間針對像中油就用凍漲的方式，中油是國營企業，不管是財政作帳或者是政策補貼都是很方便的。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:39:57.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:40:01.714000+08:00","text":"我想問一下對於民營企業的影響，比如說台塑在這裡面的角色是什麼？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:40:02.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:40:04.256000+08:00","text":"因應這樣的事情，它會不會受到一定的衝擊？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:40:05.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:40:09.043000+08:00","text":"它有沒有拿到相關的一些補貼或者是補償的狀況？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:40:09.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:40:10.565000+08:00","text":"沒關係，你們誰來講都可以，因為我想……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張主任秘書朝能","start":"2026-04-15T11:40:10.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:40:13.149000+08:00","text":"這是屬於經濟部的範疇。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:40:13.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:40:13.690000+08:00","text":"經濟部的範疇，好吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:40:13.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:40:14.972000+08:00","text":"那就經濟部多擔待吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:40:15.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:40:16.315000+08:00","text":"沒關係，有人可以回答就好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊主任秘書銘池","start":"2026-04-15T11:40:16.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:40:27.778000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，台塑在目前國內的油品市場其實只占國內內需的兩成左右，所以它的供給部分，國內價格對它的影響並不太大，它主要是以出口為主。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"莊主任秘書銘池","start":"2026-04-15T11:40:29.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:40:49.347000+08:00","text":"因為中東戰爭，所以整個國際的價格變好，對它來講其實是營收獲利的情況，不過因為它畢竟是國內的企業，所以我們也希望至少國內的部分還要先滿足，內需為主，有餘裕的話再出口，目前我們是這樣子來跟台塑討論。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:40:49.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:40:55.494000+08:00","text":"本席有觀察到這件事或者是我擔心這件事的原因，就是因為中油跟台塑當然做一樣的事情，但是體質上是不一樣的。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:40:55.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:41:25.709000+08:00","text":"如果我們在政策上面的一些協助或者是支援只側重在這邊的話，會變成民營企業的狀況是在市場競爭的過程或者什麼，當然是要對標，也要配合政府的政策，所以它的價格當然是不能拉高，可是它的成本還是拉高了，從正常市場將本求利的過程來看，它很有可能因為這樣的狀況生產越多，但必須要降價來賣，可能生產越多賣越多，它有沒有可能會因為這樣而降低生產的量能、減產或者是暫時不處理，有沒有可能會有這樣的一些狀況？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"莊主任秘書銘池","start":"2026-04-15T11:41:27.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:41:49.212000+08:00","text":"以我目前掌握的狀況，因為它之前有存量，再加上其實台塑目前進口狀況的影響並沒有那麼大，當然還是有影響，不過它還是有其他替代方案，可是替代方案對它整體進口成本的影響並沒有那麼大，所以目前我想在穩定國內油價的狀況之下，它的衝擊應該是還好，因為如同剛剛講的，它在國內內需市場的占比並不高。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:41:52.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:41:56.178000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，今天因為時間到了，大家都很趕，還有委員在等待。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:41:57.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:42:01.780000+08:00","text":"在油價補貼的政策上面，針對不同的性質，你要如何來平衡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:42:01.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:42:04.361000+08:00","text":"我希望你會後提供一個比較完整的書面報告給我。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:42:04.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:42:16.747000+08:00","text":"我擔心的是如果因為這樣的成本，又要配合凍漲的政策，它老是用減產的方式平抑損失，或者是產線調動等等，然後間接影響塑膠袋等等，我想這對於國內都不是一件好事。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:42:17.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:42:32.533000+08:00","text":"跨國裡面針對特殊狀況的補貼政策，其實是不分國營跟民營的，我覺得這部分應該要做一下通盤的思考，但沒關係，我覺得這件事情要詳細討論，所以你把相關的一些數據資料跟溝通的狀況做一下整理、跟本席的辦公室做一下對話，這樣可以嗎？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:42:33.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:42:34.994000+08:00","text":"有勞經濟部，好不好？是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-15T11:42:35.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-15T11:42:44.117000+08:00","text":"國發會雖然沒有回答到，但沒關係，這個我想也是重大政策，不管是情勢的變遷也好，或者是一些政策配套的規劃，我們都希望可以更加周延，希望可以平安地度過這個難關，謝謝。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"莊主任秘書銘池","start":"2026-04-15T11:42:44.617000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:42:46.331286+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-15T11:42:46.631286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-15T11:42:49.774143+08:00","text":"接下來請楊瓊瓔委員上臺。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}