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年度預算到時候要造建沒有人可以幫你造的時候我們會陷入很難解決的困境我相信卓院長到時候還是院長因為也沒地方可以高升啦繼續做但這個問題你要現在解決我第一個給各位講這是個很弔詭的問題我們"},{"start":116.133,"end":126.799,"text":"這一個國建國造的第一批專案呢在2026年會結案那結案的應該後面就沒有量了沒有 他這個結案之後後面要開始造一艘一艘這樣造"},{"start":127.967,"end":151.558,"text":"那在這個結案之前我們統計我們台灣主要三個大型的造船廠台船它的營收比有60%來自於國艦國造中信85%隆德58%好這個提供給兩位做參考也就是在現在台灣的造船業它主要的營收是靠工部門的訂單"},{"start":153.237,"end":157.513,"text":"可是我們的成本你如果看最重要的材料鋼板"},{"start":158.976,"end":175.66,"text":"我們的鋼板現在全世界鋼板因為中國的產量過剩所以有一個叫做鋼板的成本回落紅利這個鋼板成本回落紅利呢國際從2021年開始它每一噸827塊美元現在跌到2025年的481塊美元這是國際的價格但是我們台灣的鋼價呢"},{"start":187.797,"end":207.159,"text":"變成結構性的脫鉤我們現在每噸是1062美元也就是我們國內的鋼板鋼材跟國際的價格呢貴了一倍以上所以成本很高加上我們如果是商船的國造艦商船的話我們大概自製的能量是40%"},{"start":208.641,"end":230.323,"text":"如果是軍艦軍規的或海巡的我們國造的能量大概是20%剩下的這些重要的裝備儀器其實是控制在國外的廠商我們國內有點像是廉價的組裝廠所以成本壓不下來然後我的獲利主要是來自於國內的國艦國造第三個數據"},{"start":233.551,"end":251.191,"text":"從2023年以台灣的造船業的產業的產值做基礎就算他願意投資每年加5%一直加我們就算出我們需要造艦的頓速產值頓速那跟我們造船業的量能每一年加5%從2023一直加上來"},{"start":253.649,"end":267.362,"text":"就有一個圖表這個院長跟部長可以看在2028年就會產生一個國建國造公務船國造的建造缺口有一塊在那裡那你說為什麼有這個缺口"},{"start":268.902,"end":292.756,"text":"他沒辦法再投資 他是靠這個他如果再投資更大的話他跟國際沒有競爭的優勢那我靠國內的國艦國造這三大造船廠我再加大投資 我不會合啊 我沒有未來啊所以在2028年我們就算預算編了你發包下去 國內的造船業接不了單他緊繃了啦 吃飽了 撐住了"},{"start":294.497,"end":320.51,"text":"那接下來就是我們的院長這邊是不是要開國計標我們不可能讓中國幫我們造軍艦所以這一個建造的缺口即將在2027年底2028年出現然後這一個缺口不僅僅是產業的缺口他可能也會形成國安風險的缺口必須現在開始來因應我先請教部長這個問題我相信你"},{"start":324.192,"end":348.371,"text":"經濟各部會你都流過了這個問題有沒有發現就是說現在看起來你剛才看到那個營收EPS現在台船我們可能還要經過一段時間怎麼樣讓他負擔他現在負擔很重沒有錯但是就是說負債也很高對但是榮德跟"},{"start":351.353,"end":374.732,"text":"我現在不是在管這三家會賺不賺錢我現在提的問題是 院長跟部長 這個經濟部統轄的在2028年現在不管是國防特別預算 防衛預算 或者年度預算我要造艦啊 國艦國造啊 公務船啊 海巡艦當你要發包的時候 三大造船廠的capacity你把它一算 接不了"},{"start":375.802,"end":399.23,"text":"怎麼辦?是,我原看到一個產業跟國安的一個重大問題那我們的海巡造了很多艦坦白講,海巡造艦,付錢比海軍阿沙尼他們在國內造的很多,這個會陸續,我也會來交艦但是除了造國艦的海巡、海軍的艦艇之外我們造了很多特殊的艦,包括台"},{"start":400.31,"end":428.786,"text":"台船他造了很多原型艦就沒有後續的第二部 第三部潛艦啊 玉山艦啊等等還有很多研究的這個原型艦他沒有辦法做後續的這個市場開發這是問題不過我倒是看到我們國內的三大航運公司啊目前還是在國外造艦表示我們自己的量能是不夠的那個卓院長某某大航運公司在巴拿馬稱過王的他的貨櫃輪是交給韓國做啊是"},{"start":429.755,"end":436.012,"text":"你不能怪他啊價格差很多啊所以我剛才把這三個其實我整個報表不只三個我時間的問題"},{"start":437.679,"end":459.718,"text":"我們國內的造船業成本比人家貴我60%到80%那些儀器靠國外價格我自己不能控制然後呢我現在靠國建國造撐著讓我營收佔了60%到80%是靠它撐著那我撐著就撐著我就算每年增加5%算很有良心的我不可能再增加一倍兩倍的產線嘛"},{"start":461.107,"end":489.736,"text":"可是我們現在造艦的量能是有計畫性的海軍的造艦計畫不管是六大造艦計畫或幾大造艦計畫或海巡的造艦計畫那個頓速算得出來我就用那個頓速去除這個才算出這個缺口我現在的問題是這個缺口即將產生一年多以後我們該怎麼辦我提供一些我今天不是來考試而是說這個問題要解決他山之石啦看一下各國的各國的方式"},{"start":490.703,"end":512.355,"text":"像在主要的造船國台灣、中國、韓國、日本、新加坡、印尼、土耳其這些都有在造船那有五種做法一種叫直接造船補貼那中國有這麼做那其他這個N、A就是不適用其他國家不必有然後呢融資跟這個付稅優惠中國、韓國有"},{"start":515.857,"end":532.572,"text":"研發補貼日本韓國有然後船廠的設備補貼韓國日本印度土耳其有然後國艦國造也就是公務船國造幾乎都有除了新加坡因為新加坡的附體比較小"},{"start":534.553,"end":559.903,"text":"幾乎所有的造船國都有 所以台灣只有這一塊有其他不管是研發補貼 船廠補貼 設備補貼 融資 稅賦等等我們大概都沒有所以這個做法我不是說我們一定要完全採用因為像中國採取的這個稅賦啦 跟直接補貼這一個美國301調查現在在查他啦搞不好會被罰很重 他也不怕因為他佔了造船量能很大的比例啦所以這五個做法"},{"start":560.763,"end":573.761,"text":"部長我們部裡面有沒有討論過針對台灣的造船業如果是講剛剛您提到的國建國造這個訂單嘛然後另外照理說研發補貼我們一直有這樣的方案"},{"start":574.803,"end":592.982,"text":"那我再回去看看他們有沒有提什麼樣的研發計畫研發是有可以補貼的我再強調一次我今天第一次把問題提出來解決能力是在行政部門我不是來考試因為這是一個問題這個問題其實在海軍在造船界已經挨著顧了"},{"start":593.883,"end":618.765,"text":"一直沒有得到解方然後我明明看到時間滴答滴答越來越靠近2028又到了所以你看剛才部長提的很對我們在國建國造其實我們國家有相關的補貼國建國造提供了產業的誘因就像我們現在在無人機希望有國家的訂單促進產業的誘因對不對我今天提到的問題是當國家提出產業的誘因業界接不了單造船業是這樣子"},{"start":619.466,"end":637.14,"text":"無人機會不會這樣子我們以後再談所以第二個表格給兩位看有關公務船國造也就是國艦國造的部分其實你看第一排就好了各國都是統籌中國由中央軍委會裝備發展部"},{"start":641.454,"end":660.659,"text":"韓國是DAPA是他們的防衛事業廳日本呢跟台灣一樣新加坡呢是DSTA然後印尼呢是KKIP土耳其是SSB就是說這些國家都有一個統籌單位做什麼事情呢對我知道你造船造不出來或者你造船做黑咖喝坦軍艦"},{"start":663.1,"end":686.618,"text":"海軍付錢比較慢海巡付錢比較阿沙里他不讓你這樣做他有一個國家的統籌機制調度資源分配優先順序有什麼意思嗎就是說在其他各國推動國艦國造帶動需求的時候他會有一個統籌單位把他們國家內部的造船量能"},{"start":687.398,"end":704.769,"text":"造船支援我們國家公廠的誘因做統籌的分配跟引導讓最需要的艦先造不好你讓他自由選擇都會造容易造的好勤款的驗收不麻煩的傻瓜被逼著才去造潛艦"},{"start":706.826,"end":730.188,"text":"被逼的才會去造潛艦預算前景未明立法院也不見得給你然後造了原型艦後面有沒有不知道我不如多造一些這一個三千噸級的安平級的艦那個很穩定藍圖很簡單所以我們目前台灣跟日本可是日本外購也容易日本他們的造船業有數百年的歷史我們的體質不太一樣"},{"start":731.369,"end":748.796,"text":"台灣大概是這幾個主要造船國沒有針對公務船國艦國造統籌單位分配資源決定優先數據我們大概是唯一扣掉日本的話所以就以上這個部分是不是請院長做個統一的回答"},{"start":749.076,"end":778.316,"text":"非常謝謝委員提出這個想法我想國建國造的這個政策跟這個做法我們一定會持續下去的這是國家安全國家國防能力的問題那在這個量能如果足夠的時候我們如何讓我們的國內的其他行商也能回到國內來造建這是第二個問題那第一個剛剛談到的國建國造的過程當中委員所提出的這個建議非常好我覺得我們應該有個統籌的機制把這個當作一個大市場來看而不是把它"},{"start":779.076,"end":800.825,"text":"所以我還有一題地方的題目這一題我們是不是可以期待半年內可以看到你們回復本行好我們來檢討這樣的機制那其實你要國外的船商或者我們的國家的國籍的船訂單留在國內你的成本我們就有一些研發然後再來通通丟給國內做我就告訴你根本做不出來"},{"start":801.94,"end":821.61,"text":"光國建國造到2028年就有問題所以這兩個問題其實很有意思看起來有訂單你為什麼不做咧你東西比較貴量衝單應該降下來這是互相咬住的所以請院長跟部長年底以前我不給你什麼一個月兩個月因為這是很大的問題年底以前有提出解決方案那我們2027年就可以檢驗"},{"start":822.91,"end":830.614,"text":"2028年就可以舒緩或者優先順序排出來這幾種延後這幾種優先這個是我今天質詢這一題它既是經濟議題也是國安議題啦接下來我要請教一個很簡單的題目"},{"start":836.463,"end":853.71,"text":"最近台南市政府撤回了在內政部國土計畫審議會議裡面針對沙崙農場國土功能分區調整案撤回了城鄉發展地區第二之三類的調整案然後呢"},{"start":854.935,"end":878.463,"text":"這一個台南市政府還補充說撤回這個案子的時候呢等國科會相關計畫走完之後再依據整體評估進行發展定位外地人可能不了解在地人就知道這個題目很重要為什麼這攸關著原來的沙崙健康園區沙崙生態科學園區也就是南科四期AI半導體的發展所以我這個題目就一題問院長"},{"start":880.785,"end":890.767,"text":"那對於目前行政院跟賴清德總統致力將歸人沙輪建構為AI跟先進半導體的生產製造中心的目標跟其成是否有改變"},{"start":892.237,"end":918.303,"text":"這個撤回會不會影響?跟委員報告今天這裡結束質詢之後我們回去院內就要討論到這個相關的問題我再把結論跟委員做說明會不會改變?我們希望已經訂定的目標期程要克服現在當地所有的一些生態等等的問題當然有很多問題在生態確保無虞然後發展這個這個是我們的共識所以它叫生態園區嘛我們就是要解決這個問題去克服它們所以台南市政府撤回並不代表這個案子不見了"},{"start":919.994,"end":933.664,"text":"我們等一下會把它討論好好 這個我們地方非常關切因為這個案子衍生出來的那四大項的交通建設現在兩兩合併我也希望盡快看到院裡面可以核定下來好 謝謝王定宇委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}