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撐住了"},{"start":294.497,"end":320.51,"text":"那接下來就是我們的院長這邊是不是要開國計標我們不可能讓中國幫我們造軍艦所以這一個建造的缺口即將在2027年底2028年出現然後這一個缺口不僅僅是產業的缺口他可能也會形成國安風險的缺口必須現在開始來因應我先請教部長這個問題我相信你"},{"start":324.192,"end":348.371,"text":"經濟各部會你都流過了這個問題有沒有發現就是說現在看起來你剛才看到那個營收EPS現在台船我們可能還要經過一段時間怎麼樣讓他負擔他現在負擔很重沒有錯但是就是說負債也很高對但是榮德跟"},{"start":351.353,"end":374.732,"text":"我現在不是在管這三家會賺不賺錢我現在提的問題是 院長跟部長 這個經濟部統轄的在2028年現在不管是國防特別預算 防衛預算 或者年度預算我要造艦啊 國艦國造啊 公務船啊 海巡艦當你要發包的時候 三大造船廠的capacity你把它一算 接不了"},{"start":375.802,"end":399.23,"text":"怎麼辦?是,我原看到一個產業跟國安的一個重大問題那我們的海巡造了很多艦坦白講,海巡造艦,付錢比海軍阿沙尼他們在國內造的很多,這個會陸續,我也會來交艦但是除了造國艦的海巡、海軍的艦艇之外我們造了很多特殊的艦,包括台"},{"start":400.31,"end":428.786,"text":"台船他造了很多原型艦就沒有後續的第二部 第三部潛艦啊 玉山艦啊等等還有很多研究的這個原型艦他沒有辦法做後續的這個市場開發這是問題不過我倒是看到我們國內的三大航運公司啊目前還是在國外造艦表示我們自己的量能是不夠的那個卓院長某某大航運公司在巴拿馬稱過王的他的貨櫃輪是交給韓國做啊是"},{"start":429.755,"end":436.012,"text":"你不能怪他啊價格差很多啊所以我剛才把這三個其實我整個報表不只三個我時間的問題"},{"start":437.679,"end":459.718,"text":"我們國內的造船業成本比人家貴我60%到80%那些儀器靠國外價格我自己不能控制然後呢我現在靠國建國造撐著讓我營收佔了60%到80%是靠它撐著那我撐著就撐著我就算每年增加5%算很有良心的我不可能再增加一倍兩倍的產線嘛"},{"start":461.107,"end":489.736,"text":"可是我們現在造艦的量能是有計畫性的海軍的造艦計畫不管是六大造艦計畫或幾大造艦計畫或海巡的造艦計畫那個頓速算得出來我就用那個頓速去除這個才算出這個缺口我現在的問題是這個缺口即將產生一年多以後我們該怎麼辦我提供一些我今天不是來考試而是說這個問題要解決他山之石啦看一下各國的各國的方式"},{"start":490.703,"end":512.355,"text":"像在主要的造船國台灣、中國、韓國、日本、新加坡、印尼、土耳其這些都有在造船那有五種做法一種叫直接造船補貼那中國有這麼做那其他這個N、A就是不適用其他國家不必有然後呢融資跟這個付稅優惠中國、韓國有"},{"start":515.857,"end":532.572,"text":"研發補貼日本韓國有然後船廠的設備補貼韓國日本印度土耳其有然後國艦國造也就是公務船國造幾乎都有除了新加坡因為新加坡的附體比較小"},{"start":534.553,"end":559.903,"text":"幾乎所有的造船國都有 所以台灣只有這一塊有其他不管是研發補貼 船廠補貼 設備補貼 融資 稅賦等等我們大概都沒有所以這個做法我不是說我們一定要完全採用因為像中國採取的這個稅賦啦 跟直接補貼這一個美國301調查現在在查他啦搞不好會被罰很重 他也不怕因為他佔了造船量能很大的比例啦所以這五個做法"},{"start":560.763,"end":573.761,"text":"部長我們部裡面有沒有討論過針對台灣的造船業如果是講剛剛您提到的國建國造這個訂單嘛然後另外照理說研發補貼我們一直有這樣的方案"},{"start":574.803,"end":592.982,"text":"那我再回去看看他們有沒有提什麼樣的研發計畫研發是有可以補貼的我再強調一次我今天第一次把問題提出來解決能力是在行政部門我不是來考試因為這是一個問題這個問題其實在海軍在造船界已經挨著顧了"},{"start":593.883,"end":618.765,"text":"一直沒有得到解方然後我明明看到時間滴答滴答越來越靠近2028又到了所以你看剛才部長提的很對我們在國建國造其實我們國家有相關的補貼國建國造提供了產業的誘因就像我們現在在無人機希望有國家的訂單促進產業的誘因對不對我今天提到的問題是當國家提出產業的誘因業界接不了單造船業是這樣子"},{"start":619.466,"end":637.14,"text":"無人機會不會這樣子我們以後再談所以第二個表格給兩位看有關公務船國造也就是國艦國造的部分其實你看第一排就好了各國都是統籌中國由中央軍委會裝備發展部"},{"start":641.454,"end":660.659,"text":"韓國是DAPA是他們的防衛事業廳日本呢跟台灣一樣新加坡呢是DSTA然後印尼呢是KKIP土耳其是SSB就是說這些國家都有一個統籌單位做什麼事情呢對我知道你造船造不出來或者你造船做黑咖喝坦軍艦"},{"start":663.1,"end":686.618,"text":"海軍付錢比較慢海巡付錢比較阿沙里他不讓你這樣做他有一個國家的統籌機制調度資源分配優先順序有什麼意思嗎就是說在其他各國推動國艦國造帶動需求的時候他會有一個統籌單位把他們國家內部的造船量能"},{"start":687.398,"end":704.769,"text":"造船支援我們國家公廠的誘因做統籌的分配跟引導讓最需要的艦先造不好你讓他自由選擇都會造容易造的好勤款的驗收不麻煩的傻瓜被逼著才去造潛艦"},{"start":706.826,"end":730.188,"text":"被逼的才會去造潛艦預算前景未明立法院也不見得給你然後造了原型艦後面有沒有不知道我不如多造一些這一個三千噸級的安平級的艦那個很穩定藍圖很簡單所以我們目前台灣跟日本可是日本外購也容易日本他們的造船業有數百年的歷史我們的體質不太一樣"},{"start":731.369,"end":748.796,"text":"台灣大概是這幾個主要造船國沒有針對公務船國艦國造統籌單位分配資源決定優先數據我們大概是唯一扣掉日本的話所以就以上這個部分是不是請院長做個統一的回答"},{"start":749.076,"end":778.316,"text":"非常謝謝委員提出這個想法我想國建國造的這個政策跟這個做法我們一定會持續下去的這是國家安全國家國防能力的問題那在這個量能如果足夠的時候我們如何讓我們的國內的其他行商也能回到國內來造建這是第二個問題那第一個剛剛談到的國建國造的過程當中委員所提出的這個建議非常好我覺得我們應該有個統籌的機制把這個當作一個大市場來看而不是把它"},{"start":779.076,"end":800.825,"text":"所以我還有一題地方的題目這一題我們是不是可以期待半年內可以看到你們回復本行好我們來檢討這樣的機制那其實你要國外的船商或者我們的國家的國籍的船訂單留在國內你的成本我們就有一些研發然後再來通通丟給國內做我就告訴你根本做不出來"},{"start":801.94,"end":821.61,"text":"光國建國造到2028年就有問題所以這兩個問題其實很有意思看起來有訂單你為什麼不做咧你東西比較貴量衝單應該降下來這是互相咬住的所以請院長跟部長年底以前我不給你什麼一個月兩個月因為這是很大的問題年底以前有提出解決方案那我們2027年就可以檢驗"},{"start":822.91,"end":830.614,"text":"2028年就可以舒緩或者優先順序排出來這幾種延後這幾種優先這個是我今天質詢這一題它既是經濟議題也是國安議題啦接下來我要請教一個很簡單的題目"},{"start":836.463,"end":853.71,"text":"最近台南市政府撤回了在內政部國土計畫審議會議裡面針對沙崙農場國土功能分區調整案撤回了城鄉發展地區第二之三類的調整案然後呢"},{"start":854.935,"end":878.463,"text":"這一個台南市政府還補充說撤回這個案子的時候呢等國科會相關計畫走完之後再依據整體評估進行發展定位外地人可能不了解在地人就知道這個題目很重要為什麼這攸關著原來的沙崙健康園區沙崙生態科學園區也就是南科四期AI半導體的發展所以我這個題目就一題問院長"},{"start":880.785,"end":890.767,"text":"那對於目前行政院跟賴清德總統致力將歸人沙輪建構為AI跟先進半導體的生產製造中心的目標跟其成是否有改變"},{"start":892.237,"end":918.303,"text":"這個撤回會不會影響?跟委員報告今天這裡結束質詢之後我們回去院內就要討論到這個相關的問題我再把結論跟委員做說明會不會改變?我們希望已經訂定的目標期程要克服現在當地所有的一些生態等等的問題當然有很多問題在生態確保無虞然後發展這個這個是我們的共識所以它叫生態園區嘛我們就是要解決這個問題去克服它們所以台南市政府撤回並不代表這個案子不見了"},{"start":919.994,"end":933.664,"text":"我們等一下會把它討論好好 這個我們地方非常關切因為這個案子衍生出來的那四大項的交通建設現在兩兩合併我也希望盡快看到院裡面可以核定下來好 謝謝王定宇委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:33:14.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:33:17.672000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，麻煩請經濟部長跟院長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-17T15:33:17.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:33:31.483000+08:00","text":"麻煩再請卓院長、經濟部長備詢。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:33:31.483000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:33:32.483000+08:00","text":"王委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:33:32.483000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:33:33.483000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:33:31.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:33:32.523000+08:00","text":"辛苦了，我今天最後一個口頭質詢。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:33:34.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:33:48.892000+08:00","text":"本席今天要提出一個問題其實是經濟，但是會影響國安，它是一個基本的產業數學問題，我期待在卓院長跟部長的任內可以提早把這個地雷拆掉。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:33:50.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:34:07.462000+08:00","text":"造船業對臺灣來講是一個很特殊的行業，我們的成本比人家貴，然後我們用國艦國造，公務船自己造，讓我們國內主要的造船業者可以撐著這個量能，我待會把營收比給兩位看。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:34:08.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:34:16.990000+08:00","text":"我們現在不管是在軍艦、海巡艦或者公務船、海測船等等，那個造艦計畫是有一個期程的。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:34:18.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:34:47.932000+08:00","text":"本席待會告訴兩位，根據我們計算出來的數據，在2028年、不久以後，在2028年你就算想要國艦國造也發包不出去了，因為造艦量能不夠，但你又不可能委外，那個時候我們不管是國防特別預算、防衛韌性預算、年度預算，等到要造艦也沒有人可以幫你造的時候，我們會陷入很難解決的困境。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:34:48.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:34:55.796000+08:00","text":"我相信卓院長到時候還是院長，因為也沒地方可以高升了，就繼續做，但這個問題你要現在解決。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:34:55.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:36:53.442000+08:00","text":"給各位看第一個，這是一個很弔詭的問題，我們國艦國造的第一批方案在2026年會結案，結案應該後面就沒有量了，沒有，在這個結案之後開始造，一艘一艘這樣造，在結案之前，我們統計臺灣主要三個大型造船廠，台船營收比有60%來自於國艦國造；中信有85%；龍德有58%，這個提供給兩位參考，也就是現在臺灣造船業主要的營收是靠公部門的訂單，可是我們的成本，如果看最重要的材料鋼板，現在全世界的鋼板，因為中國的產量過剩，所以有一個叫做鋼板成本回落紅利，這個鋼板成本回落的紅利，國際鋼價從2021年開始，每一噸827塊美元，現在跌到2025年的481塊美元，這是國際的價格，但是我們臺灣的鋼價變成結構性脫鉤，我們現在每噸是1,062美元，也就是我們國內的鋼板、鋼材比國際的價格貴了一倍以上，所以成本很高，加上我們如果是商船的國造艦的話，大概自製的能量是40%；如果是軍規的或海巡的，國造的能量大概是20%，剩下的這些重要裝備、儀器，其實是控制在國外的廠商，我們國內有點像是廉價的組裝廠，所以成本壓不下來，然後我們的獲利主要是來自於國內的國艦國造。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:36:54.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:37:31.342000+08:00","text":"第三個數據，從2023年以臺灣造船業產業的產值做基礎，就算它願意投資，每年加5%，一直加，就算出我們需要造艦的噸數、產值跟造船業的量能，每一年加5%，從2023年一直加上來，就有一個圖表，院長跟部長可以看，在2028年就會產生一個國艦國造的公務船國造的建造缺口，有一塊在那裡，你說為什麼有這個缺口？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:37:33.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:38:02.979000+08:00","text":"它沒辦法再投資，它是靠這個，如果再投資更大的話，它跟國際沒有競爭的優勢，我光靠國內的國艦國造這三大造船廠，再加大投資，我不划算、我沒有未來，所以在2028年就算我們編了預算，你發包下去，國內的造船業接不了單，已經是極限了、吃飽撐住了，接下來就是我們院長這邊是不是變成要開國際標？","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:38:02.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:38:23.269000+08:00","text":"我們不可能讓中國幫我們造軍艦，所以這一個建造的缺口即將在2027年底、2028年出現，然後這一個缺口不僅僅是產業的缺口，它可能也會形成國安風險的缺口，必須現在開始因應。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:38:23.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:38:33.096000+08:00","text":"我先請教部長這個問題，因為你在經濟各部會都待過了，你有沒有發現這個問題？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:38:34.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:38:49.028000+08:00","text":"現在看起來，像剛剛有看到那個營收EPS，現在台船可能還要經過一段時間，怎麼樣讓它負擔……當然它現在負擔很重，沒有錯，但是……","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:38:49.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:38:50.169000+08:00","text":"負債也很高。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:38:51.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:38:52.351000+08:00","text":"對，但是龍德跟中信已經有他們的……","quality":0.357},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:38:55.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:39:20.842000+08:00","text":"我現在不是在管這三家賺不賺錢，我現在提的問題是要跟院長、部長講，這個是經濟部統轄的，在2028年，現在不管是國防特別預算、防衛預算或者年度預算，我要造艦，國艦國造、公務船、海巡艦，當你要發包的時候，三大造船廠的capacity，你把它一算，根本接不了，怎麼辦？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:39:20.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:39:27.305000+08:00","text":"是，委員看到一個產業跟國安的重大問題，我們的海巡造了很多艦，很多都是……","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:39:27.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:39:32.526000+08:00","text":"坦白講，海巡造艦付錢比海軍爽快，他們比較喜歡接海巡的單。","quality":0.56},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:39:32.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:39:48.693000+08:00","text":"它都是在國內造了很多，這個陸續會來交艦，但是除了國造國艦的海巡艦艇之外，我們造了很多特殊的艦，包括台船造了很多原型艦，就沒有後續第2部、第3……","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:39:50.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:39:51.874000+08:00","text":"像潛艦、玉山艦等等。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:39:52.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:40:04.861000+08:00","text":"還有很多研究的原型艦沒有辦法做後續的市場開發，這是一個問題，不過我倒是看到我們國內的三大航運公司目前還是在國外造艦，表示我們自己的量能是不夠的。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:40:05.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:40:16.402000+08:00","text":"卓院長，在巴拿馬稱過王的某某大航運公司，他的貨櫃輪是交給韓國做，你不能怪他，價格差很多啊！","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:40:16.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:40:17.405000+08:00","text":"對，我們的競爭力有問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:40:17.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:40:19.891000+08:00","text":"我剛才只列了這三個，因為時間不夠，其實我整個報表不只這三個。","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:40:21.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:40:43.698000+08:00","text":"我們國內造船業的成本比人家貴，我們60%到80%儀器靠國外，價格我們自己不能控制，現在靠國艦國造撐著，我們營收占60%到80%是靠它撐著，那撐著就撐著，就算每年增加5%算很有良心的，他不可能再增加一倍、兩倍的產線嘛！","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:40:45.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:41:04.973000+08:00","text":"可是我們現在造艦的量能是有計畫性的，海軍的造艦計畫，不管是六大造艦計畫、幾大造艦計畫或海巡的造艦計畫，那個噸數算得出來，我就用那個噸數去除才算出這個缺口，我現在的問題是，這個缺口一年多以後即將產生，我們該怎麼辦？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:41:06.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:41:10.095000+08:00","text":"我今天不是來考試，而是說這個問題要解決。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:41:10.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:41:10.935000+08:00","text":"他山之石啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:41:11.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:42:07.897000+08:00","text":"看一下各國的方式，主要的造船國像臺灣、中國、韓國、日本、新加坡、印尼及土耳其都有在造船，有五種做法，一種叫直接造船補貼，中國有這麼做，圖表中的N/A就是不適用，其他國家未必有；融資跟賦稅優惠，中國、韓國有；研發補貼日本、韓國有；船廠設備補貼，韓國、日本、印度及土耳其有；國艦國造，也就是公務船國造，除了新加坡幾乎都有，因為新加坡的腹地比較小，幾乎所有的造船國都有，而臺灣只有這一塊，其他不管是研發補貼、船廠補貼、設備補貼、融資稅賦等等，我們大概都沒有。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:42:09.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:42:22.342000+08:00","text":"這個做法我不是說我們一定要完全採用，像中國採取的稅賦跟直接補貼，美國301調查現在在查他，搞不好會被罰很重，他也不怕，因為他占了造船量能很大的比例。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:42:23.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:42:27.847000+08:00","text":"部長，針對臺灣的造船業，對這五個做法我們部裡面有沒有討論過？","quality":0.593},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:42:29.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:42:43.388000+08:00","text":"如果是剛剛您提到國艦國造的訂單，照理說，我們一直有研發補貼這樣的方案，我再回去看看他們有沒有提什麼樣的研發計畫。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-17T15:42:43.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:42:44.649000+08:00","text":"研發是可以補貼的，其他的……","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:42:45.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:43:01.867000+08:00","text":"我再強調一次，我今天來是把問題提出來，解決能力是在行政部門，我不是來考試，這是一個問題，這個問題其實在海軍、在造船界已經唉很久了，一直沒有得到解方，然後明明看到時間滴答滴答越來越靠近，2028要到啦！","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:43:03.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:43:15.939000+08:00","text":"剛才部長提的很對，其實我們國家國艦國造有相關的補貼，國艦國造提供了產業誘因，就像我們現在無人機希望有國家的訂單，這是促進產業的誘因。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:43:16.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:43:25.668000+08:00","text":"我今天提到的問題是，當國家提出產業的誘因，業界接不了單，造船業是這樣子，無人機會不會這樣子，我們以後再談。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:43:26.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:44:00.678000+08:00","text":"第二個表格給兩位看，有關公務船國造，也就是國艦國造的部分，院長看圖表第一排就好，各國都是統籌，中國由中央軍委裝備發展部；韓國是DAPA，就是防衛事業廳；日本跟臺灣一樣；新加坡是DSTA；然後印尼是KKIP；土耳其是SSB，這些國家都有一個統籌單位在做什麼事情呢？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:44:01.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:44:19.789000+08:00","text":"因為我知道你造船造不出來，或者你造船做哪個比較好賺，海軍軍艦付錢比較慢，海巡付錢比較阿莎力，他不讓你這樣做，他有一個國家的統籌機制調度資源、分配優先順序，院長，你懂我的意思嗎？","quality":0.772},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:44:19.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:44:52.227000+08:00","text":"就是說其他各國在推動國艦國造帶動需求的時候，他會有一個統籌單位把他們國家內部的造船量能、造船資源，國家公帑的誘因做統籌的分配跟引導，讓最需要的艦先造，不然你讓他自由選擇，都會造容易造的、好請款的、驗收不麻煩的，傻瓜被逼著才去造潛艦，就是因為被逼才會去造潛艦！","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:44:52.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:45:29.235000+08:00","text":"預算前景未明，立法院也不見得給你，然後造了原型艦，後面不知道有沒有，我不如多造一些3,000噸級安平級的艦，那個很穩定，藍圖很簡單，所以目前臺灣跟日本相比，日本外購也容易，日本的造船業有數百年的歷史，我們的體質不太一樣，臺灣大概是這幾個主要造船國中，沒有針對公務船國艦國造的統籌單位分配資源來決定優先順序，我們大概是唯一的國家，扣掉日本的話。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:45:29.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:45:32.776000+08:00","text":"就以上這部分，是不是請院長統一的回答？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:45:33.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:45:52.389000+08:00","text":"非常謝謝委員提出這個想法，我想國艦國造的這個政策跟做法，我們一定會持續下去，這是國家安全、國防能力的問題，量能如果足夠的時候，我們如何讓我們國內的其他航商也能回到國內來造艦，這是第二個問題。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:45:52.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:46:02.296000+08:00","text":"第一個剛剛談到國艦國造的過程當中，委員所提出的這個建議非常好，我覺得我們應該要有一個統籌的機制，把這個當作一個大市場來看，而不是把它分割了、區別了。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:46:04.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:46:10.619000+08:00","text":"院長，時間的關係，我還有一題地方的題目，這一題我們是不是可以期待半年內看到你們回復本席？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:46:11.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:46:12.240000+08:00","text":"好，我們來檢討這樣的機制。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:46:12.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:46:19.062000+08:00","text":"其實你要國外的船商或者我們國家國籍的船訂單留在國內，你的成本、報價……","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:46:20.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:46:21.163000+08:00","text":"我們針對一些研發部分給予直接的協助。","quality":0.353},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:46:21.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:46:32.403000+08:00","text":"再來，如果通通丟給國內做，我告訴你，根本就做不出來，光國艦國造到2028年就有問題，所以這兩個問題其實很有意思，看起來有訂單，你為什麼不做？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:46:33.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:46:53.753000+08:00","text":"你東西比較貴、量衝大價格應該降下來，這是互相咬住的，所以請院長跟部長，我不會只給你一個月、兩個月，因為這是很大的問題，在年底以前提出解決方案，我們2027年就可以檢驗，2028年就可以舒緩，或者把優先順序排出來，這幾種延後、這幾種優先，我今天質詢這一題既是經濟議題，也是國安議題。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:46:53.753000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:46:54.753000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:46:53.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:47:26.998000+08:00","text":"接下來我要請教一個很簡單的題目，最近臺南市政府在內政部國土計畫審議會議裡面，針對沙崙農場國土功能分區調整案撤回了城鄉發展地區第2-3類的調整案，臺南市政府還補充說：撤回這個案子的時候，等國科會相關計畫走完之後，再依據整體評估進行發展定位。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:47:27.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:47:32.360000+08:00","text":"外地人可能不了解，在地人就知道這個題目很重要，為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:47:32.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:47:41.163000+08:00","text":"因為這攸關著原來的沙崙健康園區、沙崙生態科學園區，也就是南科四期AI半導體的發展。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:47:42.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:47:54.767000+08:00","text":"關於這個題目就一題問院長，對於目前行政院跟賴清德總統致力將歸仁、沙崙建構為AI跟先進半導體生產製造中心的目標跟期程是否有改變？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:47:56.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:47:57.517000+08:00","text":"這個撤回會不會影響？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:47:57.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:48:05.899000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，在今天結束質詢之後，我們回去院內就要討論這個相關的問題，我再跟委員說明結論。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:48:06.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:48:07.560000+08:00","text":"會不會改變？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:48:07.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:48:13.201000+08:00","text":"我們希望已經訂定的目標期程，要克服現在當地一些生態等等的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:48:13.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:48:18.522000+08:00","text":"當然有很多問題，在生態確保無虞之下，然後發展這個，這就是我們的共識，所以要叫生態園區。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:48:18.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:48:19.342000+08:00","text":"對，我們就是要解決、克服這個問題。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:48:19.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:48:22.283000+08:00","text":"所以臺南市政府撤回，並不代表這個案子不見了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-17T15:48:23.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:48:24.795000+08:00","text":"我們等一下會討論好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-04-17T15:48:25.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-17T15:48:36.523000+08:00","text":"好，這個我們地方非常關切，因為這個案子衍生出來四大項的交通建設，現在兩兩合併，我也希望儘快看到院裡面可以核定下來。好的。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-17T15:48:37.023000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:48:43.880143+08:00","text":"謝謝王定宇委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","quality":0.292},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-17T15:48:44.180143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:48:54.180143+08:00","text":"接下來第8位高金素梅委員質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:48:54.480143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:48:59.623000+08:00","text":"2026年爆發的伊朗戰爭，到今天已經進入第49天了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:48:59.923000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:49:27.637286+08:00","text":"美國和伊朗雖然在4月13號開始停火談判，但情勢並沒有緩和下來，而國際油市跨國搶購現貨原油的競爭，不斷發生，最近甚至還出現原油現貨價格比期貨還高的逆價差現象，這導致了近期交付的原油價格一度飆破每桶140美元，創下歷史新高。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:49:27.937286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:49:42.508714+08:00","text":"就在這場戰爭的衝擊之下，全球經濟出現了嚴重的動盪，由於荷莫茲海峽的封閉，能源市場遭到震盪，國際油價造成劇烈波動。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:49:42.808714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:50:10.808714+08:00","text":"這次的伊朗的海峽封鎖影響了全球25至30%的石油和20%天然氣的運輸，國際貨幣基金會已經下調了全球GDP的預期，OECD預估通貨膨脹將提高1.2%，半導體生產所需要的氦氣、化肥的重要原料尿素以其他醫藥原料，都出現短缺的情況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:50:11.108714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:50:34.251571+08:00","text":"聯合國開發計畫署（UNDP）所發布的最新研究報告說：「伊朗戰爭（美國與以色列針對伊朗的軍事行動）造成的能源短缺與供應鏈中斷，將使全球約 3,200萬至3,250萬人 陷入貧窮，其中開發中國家受創最重。」","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:50:34.551571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:50:49.694429+08:00","text":"國際能源因伊朗戰爭所造成的短缺，也嚴重衝擊台灣，根據中華徵信所做的分析：戰爭前一個月的台幣購買力就已經下降了3至5%。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:50:49.994429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:51:11.994429+08:00","text":"現在隨著油價震盪，台幣貶值和能源短缺的影響，民生物價開始上漲，產業的生產成本提高，甚至有特定產業暫時停工了，未來兩個月間消費者物價指數可以預見將會升高到2%的預警紅線。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:51:12.294429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:51:35.151571+08:00","text":"如此一來，台灣的受薪階級將會因為物價上漲和薪資實質的縮水、生活負擔增加，而減少消費，台灣內需經濟恐將面臨停滯，台灣經濟已經來到中華徵信社所警示的：「能源存量」與「物價壓力」的交叉點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:51:35.451571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:51:45.165857+08:00","text":"這樣嚴峻的經濟情勢其實是全球性的，各個國家和地區也紛紛制定了因應的對策。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:51:45.465857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:52:25.751571+08:00","text":"日本政府加大了原油庫存的釋放；韓國除了能源補貼之外，加強了節能管制並重啟核電；菲律賓宣布進入國家緊急狀態，並宣布政府機關一周辦公四天，週五在家辦公；澳洲雖然由於天然氣和燃煤的出口獲利支撐了澳幣匯率，但還是進行了燃油的管控，鼓勵公共交通，控制天然氣價格；中國大陸啟動石油庫存，轉移能源渠道，並停止汽柴油的出口。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:52:26.051571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:52:36.623000+08:00","text":"本席覺得政府在面對這常因戰爭引發能源衝擊的對策思路中，一直忽略了50%的基層大眾……","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:52:36.923000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:52:46.351571+08:00","text":"台灣收入前10%族群，取得全台總收入的48%；而收入底層的50%人口，僅占總收入的12%。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:52:46.651571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:52:54.651571+08:00","text":"其中，平均收入最高的前百分之一，和基層的50%之間，收入差距高達163倍！","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:52:54.951571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:53:19.523000+08:00","text":"收入不均的程度，在報告追蹤的國家中，排名第12；財富方面，台灣最富有的1%人口，掌握總財富的27%，前10%的人口，掌握總財富的61%，底層50%人口的財富，僅佔總財富的4.3%，財富不均的程度，在報告追蹤的國家中，排名第21。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:53:19.823000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:53:26.680143+08:00","text":"但是財富最高的前1%，和基層的50%之間的差距竟然高達628倍！","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:53:26.980143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:53:34.980143+08:00","text":"所以，當能源衝擊發生時，基層50%人民所面對的幾乎就是生存危機了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:53:35.280143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:53:54.994429+08:00","text":"伊朗戰爭爆發一個月以來，台幣的購買力已經降低了3至5%，面對物流成本、進口糧食和食品、用餐、房貸、甚至民生用品價格的升高，家庭的開銷至少實質增加了五到七千元。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:53:55.294429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:54:05.294429+08:00","text":"如果戰爭持續下去，台幣貶值，實質收入萎縮，再加上通膨的侵蝕，購買力將進一步下降。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:54:05.594429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:54:19.594429+08:00","text":"這樣一來，基層大眾的財富，將會消失殆盡，生活水準必定倒退，他們的生存危機不是不存在的，貧富差距將會進一步擴大！","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:54:19.894429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:54:53.894429+08:00","text":"立法院去年底雖然通過了5,500億「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」，但這個預算案主要是因應台美關稅談判對產業衝擊而編列的，如果再加上已經準備舉債的1.25兆國防特別預算，政府幾乎已經沒錢了，現在要穩定物價的1,292億特別預算，要從哪裡生錢出來呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:54:54.194429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:55:10.480143+08:00","text":"面對當前嚴峻的能源短缺情勢，政府必須要有所取捨，對於眼前立即就會衝擊民生的情勢，應該優先解決，其他的預算項目只能是量力而為。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:55:10.780143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:55:17.923000+08:00","text":"這1,292億預算，真能靠主力補貼台電和中油，就能穩定物價了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:55:18.223000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:55:22.508714+08:00","text":"台灣的石油庫存是150天，天然氣是11至14天。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:55:22.808714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:55:28.237286+08:00","text":"一旦戰爭沒結束，這些庫存就會面臨消耗壓力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:55:28.537286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:55:55.394429+08:00","text":"更何況有了油源和氣源並不能保證在各國搶油搶氣的國際市場上，按時得到該有的現貨，這讓台灣在獲得能源現貨上，有了更大的風險，這樣的風險更會提高成本，如果戰爭像俄烏戰爭那樣長期化，政府是否做好了充分的估算呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:55:55.694429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:56:19.980143+08:00","text":"為了因應中東戰事引發的供應中斷，國際能源總署（IEA）於2026年3月宣佈成員國將聯合釋出高達 4 億桶的戰略石油儲備，這是 IEA 成立以來規模最大的釋油行動，美國（約 1.7 億桶）與日本（約 7,980 萬桶）是主要貢獻國。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:56:20.280143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:56:32.280143+08:00","text":"國際能總署的這項行動，就是為了平抑飆升的油價，這四億桶的全球庫存相當於全球公共庫存量的30%。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:56:32.580143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:56:53.151571+08:00","text":"這個數量僅相當於全球10天的需求，所以只要戰是長期化，這些釋出量只能抑制油價，但卻無法有效解決全球能源缺口，因此台灣需要更充分的準備來因應這場能源短缺的風暴。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:56:53.451571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:57:06.880143+08:00","text":"爰此，政府必須在預算做出結構性的調整，一切必須以因應眼前這場能源短缺風暴為主，其他的預算安排應該順延。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:57:07.180143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:57:10.037286+08:00","text":"今天，本席提出三項問題：","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:57:10.337286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:57:18.908714+08:00","text":"1.政府面對全球能源短缺以及戰爭長期化的影響，是否有更長期的準備？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:57:19.208714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:57:22.923000+08:00","text":"而不只是三個月內的短期方案？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:57:23.223000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:57:34.937286+08:00","text":"2.政府對於這次能源衝擊之下，50%基層大眾的民生問題和生活，是否有更全面而深入的政策性支持？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:57:35.237286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:57:47.523000+08:00","text":"3.政府穩定物價的特別預算中除了中油、台電、經濟部和農業部的補貼之外，還有沒有其他的補貼規劃呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:57:47.823000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:57:56.108714+08:00","text":"此外，為瞭解目前政府因應措施，請於兩周內書面函覆本席國會辦公室：","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:57:56.408714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:58:26.694429+08:00","text":"一、請提出我國因應全球能源短缺及戰爭長期化影響之中長期評估與具體應變方案，包括石油、天然氣、煤炭等能源之安全存量、可支撐天數、進口來源、替代調度方案，以及戰事持續3個月、6個月、1年時，對能源供應、物價、產業成本、民生用電用油及整體經濟之影響評估。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:58:26.994429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:58:55.280143+08:00","text":"二、請提供穩定物價特別預算及相關補貼措施，包括各部會分配金額、法定依據、預算來源、補貼項目、補貼對象、補貼方式、補貼期間、執行進度、目前已核撥或已支用金額，以及各項措施對抑制油價、電價、運輸成本及民生物價之預期效益與評估指標。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:58:55.580143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:59:15.294429+08:00","text":"三、請具體說明除中油、台電、經濟部及農業部既有補貼措施外，政府是否另有針對物價上漲、實質薪資縮水、家庭生活支出增加所提出之其他補貼或支持方案等細部資料。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員高金素梅書面質詢","start":"2026-04-17T15:59:15.594429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:59:41.594429+08:00","text":"四、請提出針對基層民眾、弱勢家庭及受衝擊產業之支持措施及衝擊評估資料，包括受影響產業別、受影響勞工或家戶數、補助或協助內容、預估受益人數、辦理進度，以及政府如何辨識並掌握能源與物價衝擊下之高風險族群。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-17T15:59:41.894429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T15:59:51.894429+08:00","text":"報告院會，本日排定質詢委員已經質詢完畢，謝謝卓院長以及相關部會首長列席答詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-17T15:59:52.194429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T16:00:05.623000+08:00","text":"下次會議繼續進行經濟組質詢，4月21號星期二上午9點繼續開會，進行「115年度中央政府總預算案」編製經過報告並備質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-17T16:00:05.923000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T16:00:13.637286+08:00","text":"今天謝謝洪毓祥委員，也謝謝盧縣一委員陪同我們一起參與質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-17T16:00:13.937286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T16:00:15.080143+08:00","text":"現在休息。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-17T16:00:15.380143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-17T16:00:16.523000+08:00","text":"休息（15時49分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}