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謝謝召委 我們一樣有請林主委林主委好 林主委早我想我延續一下那個洪柏凱委員那我們看到台鐵在3月12號四強號列車在新左營發生火災3月13一部柴電機車跟水泥貨車這個出軌的一個事故"},{"start":30.928,"end":52.105,"text":"那麼3月30又發生兩列EMU900區間車在七堵的吊車廠相撞出軌那但是我想要請教一下主委為什麼3月13跟這個3月30那這兩件案子要並案來調查那您剛剛有說到說這個調查要9月30才要出來為何又需要這麼久的時間 以上"},{"start":53.44,"end":77.008,"text":"我請鐵塔組組長 因為這兩個案子有一點雷同那如果3月30號這個案子重啟調查的話 那個程序走一趟會浪費時間要縮短時間 所以把這兩個合併那為什麼要到9月30這麼久謝謝報告委員 3月13號台鐵在和仁站我只想知道為什麼調查時間需要這麼久"},{"start":78.013,"end":105.983,"text":"包委因為我們的調查主要是第一個我們要收集現場的這些證據然後我們要解讀這個記錄器了解當時的車速還有當時的這些人為操作情形那重點是我們要檢視台鐵提供的相關吊車的這個標準作業程序還有我們要進行人員的訪談等於是我們第一個部分要先把這個事故的過程讓它能夠先能夠還原那我們才能接下來但你以上所說的這些我都不覺得需要到六七個月七八個月啊"},{"start":108.335,"end":134.628,"text":"這個我來報告一下我們每一個不管是航空、水路、鐵道、公路每一個案子的調查的流程序是有五大階段嘛我當然知道有它的階段啦但是主委其實這件案子相對單純啦那您剛剛所說的不管是什麼現場會刊啦保全證據啦然後人員的這個約談啦等等我本身都不覺得需要到六個月、七個月啦所以我是在提醒啊"},{"start":135.208,"end":146.937,"text":"因為會是不是以後像在台鐵如果是比較在這個內部或者是說在調度場發生的事情是不是能夠再加快速度一點那你看我其實本席調閱了過往我們調查的報告裡面我發現我們台鐵在吊車時相撞的類似事故除了現在我們在談的這兩起之外其實去年四月在花蓮段也發生過"},{"start":160.248,"end":189.021,"text":"那麼在你們的調查報告當中我們更可以看到在同類型的事件113年 114年也發生過了四起那誠如剛才主委所說的為什麼這兩件病案因為類似所以類似的事件其實一而再再而三的一直去發生那其中事故的原因以過去這運安會有說很多大部分都是人為失誤造成這本席看到可是呢這個台鐵公司的考核卻說都有符合標準"},{"start":189.761,"end":210.008,"text":"所以主委我想請教一下如果您認為是就是說您的調查報告是說人為失誤但是台鐵的考核制度卻說符合標準那你會不會覺得其實台鐵的考核制度會某些程度來說淪為形式可能沒有很大的作用所以事故才會一再的發生那再來 院安會的調查報告也有示警對不對"},{"start":211.649,"end":221.669,"text":"那一而再再而再的事情這個事件也不斷的發生那台鐵卻一直沒有改善那在這一點 運安會給什麼樣的建議會不會覺得真的很有無力感"},{"start":222.506,"end":249.053,"text":"我們對重複發生或者是有系統性的風險的事故我們會做議題的分析調查事故我們已經跟台鐵已經協調聯動公共這個案子再向蕭基努報告可能會出大事他也知道但是他說他的考核都是符合標準的但你卻說是有人為失誤這是很大的落差為什麼"},{"start":250.968,"end":252.01,"text":"你們討論過這樣子兩個截然不同的說法嗎應該不是說說法 調查結果嗎"},{"start":258.534,"end":283.319,"text":"應該是以運安會調查結果為主那如果以運安會調查結果為主那這可能後續我們就必須要台鐵提出一個說明跟報告如果運安會的調查才是正確的以他為主但是台鐵的考核機制說我們都已經有符合標準我覺得這樣的落差運安會似乎應該要再給他更多的一個建議也好或者是我覺得橫向大家應該要怎麼來溝通"},{"start":285.439,"end":301.352,"text":"那再來運安會的業務報告當中本席也看到您說當前改善意見沒有解列數高達82件列管超過3年以上的總數量更高達15件這個我能不能用白話解讀就是各部會根本就不太理會運安會的意見"},{"start":304.083,"end":327.671,"text":"有些改善建議是涉及比較長的計劃期程譬如說航空那個台中清泉港他是軍用機場嘛他當時發生灰岸事故所以有建議他的跑道要加設中心線燈他橫波度要改善我知道啦但是那個主委你不能拿單一那種看起來就知道困難度很高無法改善甚至於需要很多很久時間才能改善82件耶"},{"start":329.292,"end":330.456,"text":"我也解列說82件欸 你有沒有把這82件拿出來看一看檢討一下過 為什麼82件一直沒有辦法解列"},{"start":337.113,"end":362.942,"text":"八十二件是還沒有解列的那超過三年的只有十五 像我剛剛說的只有喔 十五件很多啦 主委主委這樣好不好我們針對那八十二件你會後我建議你回頭去審視一下也自己看一看這八十二件現在我們一直在列管 不是放著列管就好那是不是能夠給我們一個數據說它為什麼到現在在列管我們有沒有近期的追蹤那這十五件又是怎麼回事會後 我們一個月內給我們一個報告 可以嗎"},{"start":365.583,"end":372.747,"text":"沒問題我們事實上有定期找他們來開會好報告出來我想大家都很清楚了接下來我們再來問航空的問題那草原機場今年2月發生了德威航空一架班機在降落的時候輪胎脫落"},{"start":380.691,"end":394.061,"text":"那隨即呢越捷航空又有這個走錯滑行道那桃園機場一度關閉北跑道那後續還有三個航班因為燃油不足喊出main day我覺得這是蠻嚴重的事情不過呢看起來就是說運安會當時是講說因為沒有造成"},{"start":400.866,"end":420.696,"text":"實質值的損害所以不會介入調查本席很納悶了充滿問號就說運安會所說的實質損害是怎麼認定要到多大的損害那麼運安會才要來介入調查能不能說明一下那個航空器的實質損害它是根據國際民航公約第13號覆約裡面有關實質損害的定義這個定義對這個輪胎煞車輪軸的損害它是被排除掉的"},{"start":429.16,"end":447.286,"text":"而且我們對重大運輸事故意外事故的這個13號覆約裡面它有個列舉的項目這幾項沒有在包括在裡面所以這個那我請教一下主委喔當然你是依據國際民航公約啦來看但事實上"},{"start":448.106,"end":463.106,"text":"有的時候我們也知道條約公約或者是說這個文字喔它其實沒有辦法規範到每一個事件它都是百分之百的安全那我們覺得我們重演那謹慎的來看待其實會更好嘛那我們過去也有看到可能"},{"start":463.647,"end":471.17,"text":"看起來是一個小事故後來釀成大的飛案的事故其實我想在這個國際間實有所聞並不是沒有所以我覺得我們更嚴謹是比較好的那當然我是這樣就請教一下雖然我們沒有去做一個介入調查但是現在我們知不知道到底像德威航空這樣的狀況是因為疏於維修這個班機"},{"start":485.735,"end":495.646,"text":"還是說是有是個別班機的意外還是現場有什麼狀況那麼越捷航空會有這樣的一個走錯這個滑行道是我們在他們的這個相關的人員訓練問題還是在現場的場地指導問題這個現在我們知道了嗎"},{"start":503.477,"end":526.989,"text":"如果是屬於重大事故範圍的事運安會調查那屬於一般意外的屬於這種疏失的是民航局會做行政調查那民航局調查完畢以後會不會讓您也知道或者你會不會去跟他說我們也想要了解知道來列案民航局都是互通有無他會告訴我們互通有無那所以互通有無的結果現在您知道了嗎"},{"start":528.018,"end":542.463,"text":"我們還沒看到他的結果你說你都會互通有誤然後互通有誤的結果是你現在也還不知道因為他還沒告訴我們啊要去了解啊好不好因為這是二月份發生的事情啊那你是打算兩年後再來了解嗎所以我想我們要積極一點嘛"},{"start":545.444,"end":562.137,"text":"我剛剛還是這麼講啦尤其是非安的這種東西誰都沒有辦法保證一顆小螺絲有問題會被釀成大意外好那我們再來看到運安會在官網當中有建置一個運輸安全志願報告系統嘛這其中包含非安鐵道公路跟水路"},{"start":562.717,"end":571.661,"text":"那這個作用需要讓一般民眾或者是相關從業人員來通報自己可能會有一些相關危害安全的一個相關狀況那這個系統建制到現在這個案件數有達到預期嗎"},{"start":578.568,"end":600.138,"text":"倒不是議題 就是說我們建立這個系統我們希望越多越好那現在有多少件 成立到現在從108你感覺到現在總共有545件的志願的報告那有包括運輸重圍容顏或民眾直接提報那這500多件當中 那有去處理是真正有危害安全的狀況的有多少件"},{"start":600.888,"end":620.524,"text":"這個我請院長主來各國人報告那這545件裡面大概有60%是有這個安全價值那這些有安全價值的部分我們在每半年都會出版成專刊各個模組都會出版成一個專刊那裡面會把相關的案例去做整理然後會分售給相關的營運局官"},{"start":621.425,"end":638.301,"text":"如果達到六成以上 這個系統其實就有它的價值在那但是呢 本席查閱 不管鐵道局啦 航港局啦 民航局啊它其實也都有相 就是一樣的建制的系統啦所以 那運安會的這個系統跟我們現在各局自己建立的系統有什麼差別"},{"start":640.573,"end":652.846,"text":"應該是說其實在這個資源報告系統裡面不管是營運單位或者監禮單位或者是像我們在吊牙單位我們都有這樣的資源報告系統那主要是讓這個民航從業人員運輸從業人員裡面他可以選擇他信任的系統去提報"},{"start":655.609,"end":655.849,"text":"因為他是自發性的"},{"start":685.609,"end":694.693,"text":"那當然也有可能就是說 有沒有可能浪費了相關的資源啦 人力啦 甚至建制的經費啦本期給你們一個建議啦剛剛如果說60%是有參考價值 我覺得不錯但是請主委會後 我覺得可以跟我們相關的這些單位來看看是不是有這個整合的必要或者是橫向的在平台上面 怎麼有一個更好的做法也避免多頭馬車跟資源浪費 好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}