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委員口頭質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊請國防部於二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員另指定期限者從期鎖定宣讀完畢"},{"start":1819.003,"end":1826.771,"text":"請問在場的委員對於議事錄有無遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有 那我就議事錄確定請議事錄先讀報告事項"},{"start":1831.773,"end":1851.023,"text":"報告事項 邀請外交部部長 經濟部次長財政部次長 農業部次長行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表報告因應台美關稅及國際局勢變化台美關係互動情形及俄烏戰爭與以哈衝突外交援助概況並被質詢宣讀完畢先介紹在場的委員及介紹與會的官員我們第一個介紹是我們習曉新委員"},{"start":1863.946,"end":1891.781,"text":"陳永康委員現在介紹與會的官員第一個是外交部部長 林佳龍亞東太平洋副市長 林宥勳林宏勳 抱歉亞西籍非洲市市長 嚴嘉良"},{"start":1894.943,"end":1914.527,"text":"歐洲司司長黃君耀拉丁美洲吉加勒比海司司長鄭麗晨北美司司長王良義條約法律司副司長許博裕國際組織司副司長張之下國際合作社及經濟事務司司長林一平"},{"start":1924.526,"end":1946.373,"text":"國際創博師師長張秀珍研究設計會主任柯良瑞秘書處處長陳景林人事處處長李詩怡政府部處長孔憲台主計處處長李佩華"},{"start":1952.343,"end":1978.974,"text":"資訊及電務處副處長羅倩薇公眾外交協調會執行長蕭光維台灣日本關係協會副秘書長林玉慧領事事務局局長鄭振勇經濟部次長江文洛"},{"start":1981.98,"end":2009.398,"text":"國際貿易署主任秘書黃敬軒產業發展署政策組組長嚴鳳琦中小及新創企業署主任秘書林佳琴財政部官務署署長彭英偉農業部次長杜文珍"},{"start":2012.249,"end":2036.29,"text":"國際事務司副市長溫祖康綜合規劃司副市長韓寶珠畜牧師檢任計政周文林農糧署副署長陳啟隆漁業署副署長林鼎龍"},{"start":2038.579,"end":2045.64,"text":"行政院經貿談判辦公室副總談判代表嚴慧欣"},{"start":2051.598,"end":2078.043,"text":"本日會議邀請外交部、經濟部、財政部、農業部、行政院、經貿談判辦公室報告因應台美關稅及國際局勢變化台美關係互動的情形即俄烏戰士以哈衝突外交援助概況並被質詢首先請外交部林部長上台報告"},{"start":2084.898,"end":2113.512,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家早安承蒙貴委員會邀請外交部前來就因應台美關稅及國際情勢變化台美關係互動情形暨俄烏戰事以及以哈衝突外交援助概況進行專題報告以下僅就本部相關部分來做說明敬請各位委員指教首先是台美關稅最新情形及相關互動"},{"start":2114.793,"end":2133.866,"text":"第一 美國公布對各國的最新稅率美國白宮在8月1日對等關稅暫緩期限屆期前於美東時間7月31日發布調整對等關稅稅率行政命令相關稅率於美東時間8月7日起生效"},{"start":2134.767,"end":2157.067,"text":"那該行政命令將部分貿易夥伴適用的稅率名列在相關的文件之附件一而台灣在該附入所適用的稅率從4月所公佈的32%調降到20%那另外原本最惠國待遇的稅率則仍然適用"},{"start":2157.912,"end":2183.286,"text":"那麼第二就台美關稅議題的互動情形美方通知我方因台美尚未完成協議美方先對我方公布20%的暫時性稅率那我政府將持續爭取在後續談判中獲取對台灣最有利更合理的稅率那麼也將努力爭取不以疊加原稅率的方式計算我國的談判團體"},{"start":2186.248,"end":2207.864,"text":"團隊將在整體經濟戰略及國家長期發展的原則上持續與美方就關稅及232條款等相關議題進行磋商致力於協助我國業者在美國市場享有公平競爭環境並強化台美在高科技與製造業供應鏈的互補合作以奠定我國產業下階段有利的國際布局"},{"start":2208.524,"end":2236.581,"text":"那麼第三外交部將持續密切關注川普政府各項經貿科技的新政以總和外交為原則持續深化台美各項領域的經貿夥伴關係那面對川普政府的各項新政外交部將在台美經貿互補互利的基礎上持續向川普政府說明台灣是美國從政製造業及鞏固AI領域全球領先地位之不可或缺的夥伴"},{"start":2237.501,"end":2267.221,"text":"政府也將持續透過既有的政策溝通平台就台美共同關切的議題深化雙方在各個領域的合作關係外交部將持續與總和外交作為核心的策略攜手各部會共同協助我國產業拓展國際視察強化台美在AI 高科技 能源合作以及經濟安全等領域的合作關係以落實賴總統所提出的例如台灣佈局全球加強美國行銷全世界的理念"},{"start":2268.342,"end":2289.955,"text":"第二方面我們就國際局勢下變化的一個國際情勢下的台美關係及互動情形進行說明首先美國對台灣安全的支持立場具有延續性美國歷任政府不論由何黨執政都恪守台灣關係法及六項保證對台承諾確保台灣具備自我防衛的能力"},{"start":2290.815,"end":2309.213,"text":"並持續深化台美各領域的合作我政府持續與川普政府團隊維持暢通的溝通管道以及密切及具建設性的互動共同來應對各種挑戰並在全球經貿供應鏈及維護區域和平穩定的領域作為彼此重要的安全與經貿夥伴"},{"start":2310.734,"end":2329.575,"text":"那麼第二川普政府重視印太區域並以維持台海和平穩定為核心那麼在台美共同的努力下台海和平穩定的重要性已經成為國際的共識雖然面對俄烏戰爭以及以哈衝突等國際動盪局勢川普政府持續強化對中嚇阻"},{"start":2330.015,"end":2349.602,"text":"及印太安全的態勢非常的明確而美方也持續藉由各個會談場合表達對台海和平穩定的重視與支持近期 如美國國務卿盧比奧7月與韓國外長造險會晤時雙方均強調台海和平穩定對於國際社會的安全與繁榮不可或缺"},{"start":2350.322,"end":2374.381,"text":"那麼第三除了行政部門以外國會也展現強勁的對台的支持國會參眾兩院跨黨派議員持續於訪台立法的作為還有公開職員以及聯名函等具體的行動展現美國跨黨派對台灣以及強化台美安全合作的堅定支持而外交部將持續關注各項友台的法案的後續立法發展"},{"start":2375.502,"end":2401.756,"text":"並與美國國會友人及行政部門保持密切的聯繫穩健深化台美安全夥伴的關係那麼第三大部分就俄烏戰事以及以哈衝突外交援助進行說明那麼首先俄烏戰事外交援助的概況那麼自從2022年2月俄烏戰爭爆發之後我政府就攜手民間援助烏克蘭展現對烏國的支持迄今援烏計畫金額"},{"start":2404.929,"end":2411.233,"text":"達1.5億美元項目涵蓋人道援助難民的安置水電基礎建設重建橋樑及醫院"},{"start":2413.274,"end":2432.44,"text":"以及知通訊教育人才培育婦女父權農業執訓醫藥衛生兒少心理健康以及私戶兒童照護等面向至於合作的國際對象則包括烏克蘭捷克波蘭立陶宛以及愛沙尼亞等政府和非政府的組織以及歐洲復興開發銀行等國際組織"},{"start":2435.014,"end":2460.219,"text":"那麼再者 今年7月在羅馬舉行的第四屆烏克蘭重建會議上捷克總統帕維爾公開讚揚台捷合作緣故成就斐蘭堪稱民主國家合作的典範相關發言有助於提升台灣國際正面的形象此外 今年3月本部邀請11個烏克蘭地方首長共36人來台參加台北智慧城市展並舉辦烏克蘭重建論壇"},{"start":2462.939,"end":2488.803,"text":"商機媒合會而8月烏克蘭國會首度籌組跨黨派國會議員訪談訪台軍系我國援助烏克蘭帶動台烏關係發展的重要里程碑另外台灣與烏克蘭共享民主人權與自由價值雙方同處於對抗威權擴張的第一線台灣將持續與歐洲理念相近的國家共同展現對烏克蘭提供人道援助的決心那人道"},{"start":2489.403,"end":2509.578,"text":"原污符合總和外交的精神未來台灣將本於自由民主與人權等核心價值持續推動龍邦計畫來援助烏克蘭並深化台烏教育合作學術交流提供獎學金支持吸引烏國青年來台交流後持烏國長期有我的人脈以民主價值來深化國際的連結"},{"start":2510.839,"end":2535.101,"text":"以同盟外交來強化雙邊及多邊的區域安全並以經貿外交打造經濟日不落國的台灣與國際社會共同協助烏克蘭重建國家社會並以攜手台商來爭取烏克蘭重建商機以及形塑台灣加烏克蘭產業全球新佈局深化兩國人民交流以及產業的連結以成為烏克蘭戰後重建的堅實夥伴"},{"start":2536.522,"end":2562.577,"text":"那麼另外一方面是有關以哈衝突我們台灣外交援助的現況首先巴勒斯坦武裝組織哈馬斯在2023年10月7日對以色列發動恐怖攻擊之後我政府在第一時間即對哈馬斯恐怖攻擊行為表達譴責並向以國政府及恐攻受害人民表達慰問以及關懷另外外交部至以哈衝突以來持續關注相關的局勢發展"},{"start":2563.737,"end":2588.439,"text":"並與友好及理念相近國家密切的聯繫對受戰亂影響者提供必要的關懷以及人道的協助這些具體的案例僅列舉幾項第一呢 針對加薩人道援助我駐約旦代表處與美茨組織巴勒斯坦分部合作對加薩地區提供人道援助物資該組織運用我國政府50萬美元的捐款"},{"start":2589.159,"end":2607.536,"text":"運送及發放糧食飲水以及衣服和帳篷等物品給加薩地區的民眾本部將續與駐約旦代表處協調透過約旦及其他理念相近的國家還有國際人道組織合作適時參加加薩人道援助及後續重建的相關計畫"},{"start":2608.837,"end":2630.085,"text":"另一個例子是針對以國境內恐攻受害者的協助我助以色列代表處與以色列當地非營利組織合作提供遭恐攻攻擊而受難及撤離的弱勢家庭所需的緊急生活物資協助對象包括不分族裔體現台灣人幫忙的精神以及我國對受災民眾的關懷與支持"},{"start":2631.385,"end":2657.4,"text":"那麼另外呢台灣一向與國際社會共同譴責任何形式的恐怖主義以及威權主義對民主自由的傷害那呼籲以哈衝突相關各方能夠延續先前停火的和平精神持續斡旋與溝通透過談判來化解對立與衝突以達成停火協議為中東地區帶來和平最後以上的報告請主席還有各位委員還有大院這個"},{"start":2658.941,"end":2663.943,"text":"進行這個指教持續給本部最大的支持 謝謝接著請我們行政院經貿談判辦公室嚴附總談判代表上台報告"},{"start":2684.468,"end":2694.88,"text":"主席各位委員大家好承蒙各位委員的邀請本辦公室就因應台美關稅及國際局勢變化的台美互動關係來跟各位提出報告"},{"start":2695.826,"end":2713.478,"text":"也請各位不吝指教首先在台美對等關稅的進展上面在4月2號美國發布了行政命令那對於這個對等關稅的這個科徵上面對於主要的美國貿易力差國科徵了11到50%不等的個別對等關稅"},{"start":2714.679,"end":2729.852,"text":"而這個個別的對等關稅的這些計算的方式基本上是採用產品輸美的既有稅率再加上對等關稅的方式來計算因為台灣是美國的第六大的逆差國所以美國設定"},{"start":2730.692,"end":2757.17,"text":"台湾在4月2号所公布的行政命令里面给予台湾的对等关税是32%不过后来我们就跟美国开始展开了他说90天谈判期的进行谈判那个期间我们科振的是10%的基础税率所以台湾在4月开始我们就积极跟美国展开谈判这个谈判的过程经历了4次的实体以及10次的线上的智商会议"},{"start":2760.813,"end":2772.994,"text":"政府院長來率領各個相關的部會來進行談判那在這個我們所談判的對象基本上是跟商務部USTR來作為我們主要的"},{"start":2773.908,"end":2790.028,"text":"美方的谈判的一个来源那美国也在7月31号就整个谈判的进展公布了新的对等关税的税率而按照它7月31号的行政命令在附论里面有提到"},{"start":2791.934,"end":2815.611,"text":"這些國家列入副錄一的國家是屬於已同意或接近與美國完成貿易與安全協議的這些國家而台灣在裡面那我們也經由美方的告知台美雙方因為我們持續有談判而且是有正面性的進展所以台灣現在雖然在副錄一列入關稅"},{"start":2816.571,"end":2820.217,"text":"但是這個對等關稅是暫時性的關稅所以美國給予台灣是從32%降為20%而這個20%是一個暫時性的稅率"},{"start":2830.495,"end":2857.903,"text":"那不过20%不是我们谈判小组所追求的谈判目标那我们持续的在进行谈判当中那也在8月7号8月8号都跟美国进行了视讯会议那目前为止因为台美还没有进行最终的总协议的谈判会议最主要的原因是因为美国现在在谈判的对象很多第二个我们希望可以出力"},{"start":2858.763,"end":2883.669,"text":"這個半導體資通訊產品跟232的一體跟對等關稅可以一併的在我們這一次的談判一併處理所以我們台美持續在進行溝通當中那在這個美國的對等關稅談判之下我國基本上必須要去回應以及處理美國展開對等關稅談判的主要的考量也就是降低貿易利差"},{"start":2884.67,"end":2906.979,"text":"第二個 這一次面對跟美國的談判 涉及的層面非常的複雜因為美國的這個談判實際上包括了例如像關稅非關稅貿易便捷化這種貿易政策的考量也涉及到像它對於汽車鋼鋁銅這些產品有國安關鍵性考量的產業政策"},{"start":2907.919,"end":2931.102,"text":"此外我們也看到美國的對等關稅談判他也會去思考到例如像這些違規轉運、洗產地涉及到地緣政治或經濟安全考量上面的一個談判策略所以確實增加了很多不同於一般傳統談判的複雜度以及很多的元素"},{"start":2932.349,"end":2957.434,"text":"那此外呢因為我方也主張要把232供應鏈合作跟對等關稅一併進行考量那這樣的思考實際上也是符合我國的產業戰略佈局那因為我們認為我們企業也正在擴大對美的這個投資那對台灣來說做一個更整體性的"},{"start":2958.575,"end":2969.632,"text":"全球布局也基本上會是符合台灣本身這個長期性的整體國家的戰略那目前我們看到面對對等關稅"},{"start":2972.159,"end":2999.997,"text":"國內產業政府也都做了因應那因為我們現在蘇美的農農工產品的平均關稅有3.3%那工業產品平均關稅是3.1%以及農產品的既有平均關稅是5%那在這些既有的平均關稅就是蘇美的既有平均關稅在這樣的幅度的區間但是呢當然另外再疊加"},{"start":3001.058,"end":3029.878,"text":"我們現在暫時性的20%的對等關稅之下可能會對產業有不同這個競爭力的影響所以行政院已經在4月就已經公布因應美國關稅我國出口供應鏈支持方案那接下來我想政府會持續去注意產業在因應這些國際情勢變局可能需要的協助那面對未來的談判"},{"start":3031.745,"end":3060.532,"text":"我們也觀察到各國跟美國的對等關稅談判進展不一我們現在看到依據一些公開的資訊像只有印尼跟美國有公開所謂的共同聲明Joint Statement那對於其他的各國他們的公佈方式也都不同不過面對這樣的一個國際情勢談判小組仍然在爭取持續為台灣爭取更好更合理的對等稅率的"},{"start":3062.098,"end":3087.776,"text":"這個談判也希望爭取把二三二一併的討論那此外呢也要強調的是我們跟美國的談判一直面對的三大挑戰談判時間的壓縮議題的複雜性以及美國的一個對於談判立場的不確定性不過我們始終堅持要秉持國家及產業利益國人健康以及糧食安全的十大原則"},{"start":3088.997,"end":3111.108,"text":"不過談判小組 我們代表行政機關 國人 以及國會的附託所以我們一旦達成這個協議之後行政團隊會向國會以及社會做完整的報告也會把協議送交國會審議所以期盼朝野共同合作以上報告 敬請指教 謝謝"},{"start":3115.888,"end":3140.047,"text":"其他相關機關報告請參議院書面的資料那現在開始詢答本會委員6加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分發言的這個登記截止如有臨時提案請以10點半以前提出11點左右處理現在請習巧欣委員上台執行"},{"start":3162.779,"end":3169.691,"text":"好謝謝主席我們有請這個行政院經貿談判辦公室的副總談判代表"},{"start":3176.431,"end":3194.64,"text":"首先非常遺憾我今天看到書面報告裡面行政院的經貿辦公室還是沒有把國人的話聽進去今天的報告裡面翻開來還是一樣是官腔喪事喜辦只講說有幾成是零關稅卻不去談論那一些要被疊加關稅的產業"},{"start":3196.881,"end":3215.038,"text":"現在已經開始被收稅了他們到底會受到哪一些的衝擊影響有多大出口比例從業人員等等的問題以及你們規劃的930億的預算現在目前明明都還沒有談完就已經決定編列這個數額到底是哪裡想像來的"},{"start":3216.239,"end":3220.042,"text":"首先大家對於20加N的疊加性的關稅影響很多國人是不知道的4月確實有說有疊加式的關稅可是問題是我們要請大家去跟美國談不過就是希望第一個關稅的稅率能夠下降第二個不要用疊加的方式"},{"start":3237.074,"end":3266.557,"text":"結果你的關稅你說我從32%下降到20%那疊加性沒有被取消為什麼賴總統都沒有告訴國人一直到這個話題延燒起來之後鄭麗君才開了一個記者會告訴大家對確實有疊加我在這裡詢問三個主要的產業第一個自行車的部分我想要請教我們的最惠國的待遇關稅範圍也就是MFN的部分大概是在百分之多少到多少"},{"start":3268.844,"end":3282.108,"text":"就這一個部分我想我們的關稅結構有經過進一步的分析我們大部分的工業產品實際上都是我問的是自行車產業我們一個一個產業來談我不想再聽這些官腔的事情了一個一個產業來談我才知道你們到底在談判的時候你們知不知道你們在談什麼嘛自行車最惠國待遇的關稅範圍是多少很難嗎"},{"start":3298.368,"end":3307.254,"text":"我想這一個數字呢或許我們可以再做進一步的這個調查什麼意思 還要調查你知道這些數據都是在網路上都查得到的嗎那為什麼我現在在公開質詢你 你不知道呢來 再來整體的從業人員我們在2024年有多少的台灣人民在從事這項產業"},{"start":3324.075,"end":3338.304,"text":"報告委員 我們基本上是協助產業我們要知道這個產業的規模有多大嘛有多少人有可能被裁員那你是不是應該要知道這個產業裡面有多少人在工作你知道嗎"},{"start":3339.344,"end":3368.662,"text":"我可以跟委員報告我們當然知道這個產業大概有三萬七千人的就業人口但是我要跟您報告的是我們是行政院經貿談判辦公室我們來協助協調對外的談判事務沒錯但是你們在談判的時候你們也要了解嘛所以我剛剛問的第一個問題還沒有答出來啊就是說我們在自行車的最惠國待遇的關稅範圍大概是多少到多少他們應該已經拿答案給你看了吧剛剛你不知道現在知道了吧"},{"start":3369.564,"end":3392.845,"text":"我想我们的自行车的产业大概在5.6%上下的MFN但是我们刚刚是想要跟您进一步说明我们的整个产业基本上零关税在工业产品的零关税比例你说5%对不对平均5%刚刚你讲的平均5%对不对你选的是最低值我来告诉大家我们可以看一下这个自行车"},{"start":3393.886,"end":3417.433,"text":"自行車的關稅裡面我們可以看到在關稅表裡面的HTS裡面的87120015Bicycles這個不是電動的然後呢輪子呢over 63.5cm的就是比較大輪胎的整車我請問一下它的匯率是多少原本的最惠國匯率是多少上面寫得很清楚11%對吧"},{"start":3423.348,"end":3436.572,"text":"按照您這個表格看起來這個表格就是都公開大家都可以看得到的表格不是按照我的表格好嗎所以如果我今天的表格有錯你可以告訴我但是我想要問63公分點5公分這個輪子的自行車的整車它的輸美關稅原本是不是11%"},{"start":3447.208,"end":3470.561,"text":"跟委員報告 我剛剛會提到說這是參考您的提供資料是因為我們看到關稅稅責號列的最上面應該有一個column 1 or 2有 我是把它截掉了嘛不可能我整本都給你啊所以我想要問你知不知道63.5公分的自行車的整車它的輸美關稅是百分之多少在沒有疊加之前"},{"start":3471.889,"end":3482.259,"text":"我想每一個產品我們要去查這些關稅的稅率都不是問題所以我今天拿出來問你你也不清楚你還要回去查是不是你要告訴我的意思是這樣子跟委員報告我們的對美的關稅的談判"},{"start":3488.365,"end":3495.268,"text":"應該不是一個產品一個產品不是一個產品不是一個產品但是實際上影響到的就是每一項產品嘛所以當你今天你們很自信的說你們都去談判了結果我問你一個自行車的整車我拿的是自行車裡面最高稅率的那個本來的最惠國待遇就是11%結果你不知道在自行車的這個產業裡面最大的"},{"start":3514.359,"end":3526.33,"text":"11%的原本的最惠國待遇的是哪一種的車型你不知道啊所以11%的原本的關稅加上20%是多少是高達31%你要讓這樣子的一個"},{"start":3531.193,"end":3546.794,"text":"63公分以上的整車類似這樣的產業以後如何生存來我再問紡織業紡織業我們的最惠國的關稅範圍是百分之多少到多少你們現在桌上應該已經有資料了翻給他看吧"},{"start":3547.932,"end":3560.559,"text":"我不曉得你們都在談判一些什麼我現在問的問題都非常簡單因為這一整個月以來大家都在針對自行車房之業像塑膠水五金產業手工具產業工具機重電產業這些議題都是原本有關稅的要疊加上去的所以你們應該早就知道我們會提出這樣子的一個疑問請問可以回答了嗎"},{"start":3573.359,"end":3576.741,"text":"要我等你多久 時間需要暫停嗎有問你的是紡織產業所以是多少個百分比的範圍嘛"},{"start":3593.191,"end":3604.529,"text":"我想我可以跟您報告像重量稅或許它會達到了大概有30%這樣子的一個稅率好 你知道我要問什麼來 我們看一下"},{"start":3605.888,"end":3607.329,"text":"這個叫做針織衫一般男生女生都會穿的針織衫因為我覺得我們每次講紡織業大家也不曉得紡織業代表什麼意思是什麼樣的一個產品來 給大家看一下這叫做針織衫它的序號611-03030"},{"start":3623.283,"end":3639.263,"text":"然後呢,你可以看,這個threaders, pullovers, and similar articles, knitted or crocheted, and of a mandate, fibres, and neocene,是百分之三十二的原關稅,加上百分之二十之後會是多少?"},{"start":3642.004,"end":3646.227,"text":"52%啊所以不是說我們疊加關稅好像現在都講的 喔本來我看你的報告裡面寫的都是大多數都是零關稅只有少量的可能3% 5%加上去就是24 25也沒有很高比本來的32還要低我隨便挑一個女性男性最常穿的針織衫的產業"},{"start":3666.562,"end":3670.729,"text":"他原本的關稅就高達32%加了20%以後是52%啊我還沒有講前面的幾條啊前面的幾條羊毛的部分你可以看得到"},{"start":3679.997,"end":3697.909,"text":"我看一下羊毛的部分這個第一項6%的有17%的是containing 23% or more of wool就是你如果添加23%或以上的羊毛相關的紡織物是17個百分點17加20是37所以你們在整個紡織產業裡面談下來的這個關稅因為原本他就有疊加上去之後對這個產業來說是很大的影響"},{"start":3710.237,"end":3718.023,"text":"你們了解以及有思考要怎麼處理嗎報告委員謝謝您的這個指點實際上我們都有注意到我們講平均值世代指的是我們有82%以上現在蘇美已經都是領關稅在工業產品上面我知道但是我問的是有特定的產業它受到影響嗎對有一些特定的產品它的關稅相對比較高"},{"start":3733.956,"end":3738.358,"text":"這個不只是相對比較高你都說到52%了只是相對比較高嗎我再來問像素膠這個也不是什麼很難的問題大家都在問來我們的塑像膠最惠國的關稅的範圍大概是百分之多少"},{"start":3754.775,"end":3756.196,"text":"我需要暫停嗎我想要跟委員報告的這些個別的產品我現在就是在問個別的產業不是產品在這個產業裡面會有產品產業裡面它會先受損在個別的產品它會受損得更嚴重"},{"start":3774.784,"end":3778.087,"text":"所以我想要問你的是我們一直在講說塑像膠它會因為這次的關稅疊加受到影響那我請問你它的範圍原本的關稅範圍是多少為什麼我這三個這麼主要討論了一整個多月會受影響的產業我現在問你都還要浪費我三分鐘以上的時間你們才能夠回答呢"},{"start":3800.297,"end":3809.304,"text":"第一個要報告的 你直接告訴我是百分之多少到多少嘛我就問的是塑像膠的產業 我問你什麼你回答什麼呀"},{"start":3810.78,"end":3829.758,"text":"對 委員我們的塑膠產業平均的MFN關稅現在是4.6但是我們必須要看所有產品不是取決於單一的稅率的問題第二個我們必須要看我們實際上有沒有在出口這些產品第三個我們的競爭對手這些產品都是因為有在出口所以才會被討論"},{"start":3830.979,"end":3834.5,"text":"你要說紡織業沒有再被出口嗎你要說橡膠沒有被出口嗎你要告訴我自行車沒有對美出口嗎這些話你說得出來嗎我們再來看一下塑膠的部分塑膠很多人也不知道什麼是塑膠我隨便拉一個給大家看其中我們的手套"},{"start":3850.665,"end":3868.375,"text":"這個塑膠型的手套比如說你的家用清潔手套或者是你去吃手扒雞的這種手套這都是經常看到的很多的民生用品台灣做起來也是很便宜銷售到世界各國來說的話我們也相當有競爭力原本的關稅稅率就是6.5%加上20%以後是多少26.5%"},{"start":3875.276,"end":3879.68,"text":"所以關稅的稅率並不像你們講的暫時性的 疊加的加起來也沒有很高好像24%你們大多都在講八成零關稅 四成零關稅可是你們沒有告訴我們的在某一些特定的產業裡面他們受到巨大的傷害好 我們看下一張有多少的廠商包含農民 包含勞工他們都是非常不滿的"},{"start":3902.119,"end":3907.622,"text":"他們都覺得呢接下來關稅的海嘯會讓他們受到影響好下一張我剛剛問你的問題其實在網路上你也都能夠查得到來自經濟部的來源嘛所以我不曉得為什麼回答我們的問題要這麼慢估計的產業的衝擊的百分之比率你可以看到都非常高我剛才跟你講的所謂的自行車的這個部分來我們看一下美國市場"},{"start":3932.076,"end":3958.716,"text":"7月我們跟去年的7月比較輸美的市場的減幅擴大到怎麼樣呢今年1月到7月出口美國是2.67億美元減幅是14.4%所以你可以看到今天不是現在才開始而且未來可能會更嚴重這就是大家對你們現在很沒有信心的原因所以我要告訴大家的事情是來下一張"},{"start":3960.325,"end":3963.666,"text":"連傳統院長都說你們沒有做詳盡的說明要深刻的檢討那結果呢民進黨的立委說早就講過了還有呢民進黨的議員跟發言人說是我不認真我想要請教一下你們對於當初談完公佈開講20%之後沒有特別在強調"},{"start":3982.351,"end":3990.496,"text":"關於疊加性的部分並沒有被談掉這件事情有沒有一個公開的說法跟國人說清楚"},{"start":3992.211,"end":4005.38,"text":"我想那個卓院長也已經在行政院會跟大家說明以後行政機關一定會就這些問題不厭其煩的一而再再而三的去說明對等關稅實際上的柯真那對於對等關稅我們的談判因為目前我們還沒有談到確定的稅率那就談判小組的規劃就是我們先把談稅率本身談到大致底定之後我們接下來才會去針對柯真的方式計算的方式來跟"},{"start":4020.31,"end":4040.447,"text":"所以呢你們的經濟部的關稅影響評估報告評估到哪裡了什麼時候要送完整的細節到立法院那既然談的狀況比原本至少郭志輝部長講的要比日韓還要好其實是更差那900多億的產業振興方案有沒有要增加"},{"start":4041.854,"end":4057.512,"text":"我想行政院都是持續在討論這個議題特別像您剛剛講的有一些重點產業你們不要再講持續討論這個議題因為昨天卓榮他院長說相關的很多比如說特別條例等等的很快就要出來啦很快數字就要出來了不是嗎"},{"start":4059.074,"end":4069.627,"text":"還是這個事情要等到下一個會期才要處理我想行政院可能或許會在今天做進一步的這個說明就這個國內的因應產業方案所以我要問的是國內因應產業方案原本規劃的900多億"},{"start":4075.074,"end":4088.27,"text":"在我們發現談判比原本預期想像要差的狀況之下第一個疊加性的第二個高於日韓請問我們原本要振興產業的900多億有沒有要往上調最後一個問題請你明確的回答我"},{"start":4094.858,"end":4104.302,"text":"第一個要跟委員報告的我們的談判的自從32%降為20%所以並沒有比原本的預期差這是第一點沒有比原本的預期差那之前郭志輝在說什麼他說我們已經投資了這個台積電1650億了所以我們條件考於日韓所以說我們很有信心我們拿到的會比日韓還要來的低結果日韓是15%然後呢日本還不是疊加性的"},{"start":4121.63,"end":4133.557,"text":"那我不曉得我們跟主要的競爭國家比起來我們優勢優在哪裡所以我不同意你剛剛講的這句話請你收回那再來我要問的請回答我最後一個問題就是900多億的產業振興方案跟你原本至少郭志輝他講的那麼的覺得可以很好的這個狀態是不一樣的那請問900多億的產業振興方案金額有沒有要調高"},{"start":4150.126,"end":4163.889,"text":"就我的理解今天行政院會通過會增加200億的這樣子的規模好 謝謝好 謝謝我們習曉新委員的實行接下來有陳永康委員上台執行"},{"start":4190.121,"end":4212.112,"text":"主席今天能够有机会再跟各位为国效力出去谈判付出的同仁做一个面对互动学习的机会我也首先请外交部长谈判副总代表也请您一起我第一个议题是提供各位做一个参考的"},{"start":4215.328,"end":4231.725,"text":"大家好对国外的谈判不管是跨部会或者是跨领域它的范畴的升广绝对不是我们单独针对某个议题就能够找到一个短期的解套方案"},{"start":4232.666,"end":4253.058,"text":"这个图表是提供我们谈判的代表或者是经济部外交部同仁它是一个方法论我们先去decompose就是说从美国的国家利益来看川普总统的关税谈判这个策略逻辑的分析把它破解拆开这个东西"},{"start":4254.215,"end":4274.917,"text":"根据这个方法论它是回路修正然后再去看看我们对应它有没有一些底线有没有一些回路修正比方来讲它本质这不仅是美国的经济问题是国安的问题当谈到国安问题就是刚才副总代表您提到的是国家战略的问题"},{"start":4275.538,"end":4299.028,"text":"那它cover了包括地缘政治地缘经济地缘战略军事地缘战略它不是单一的现象不可以切割它不是stovepicking的所以它在水平的协商上就跨部会跨领域了所以即便是产品的项目上千上万项那如何去破解可能逃犯的时候它是一个package"},{"start":4299.648,"end":4320.819,"text":"那目的呢它是美国利益优先形塑它的历史定位所以个人的卓越不可预测那主导国家这是它的目的那至于方法手段各位看这个里面这是我们从美国谈判过程中间把它decompose它如何做回路包括限时增压包括"},{"start":4321.759,"end":4338.624,"text":"延长美债 制裁选项甚至告诉你有个Trap在那边你敢不敢面对挑战所以它这个五个回路最后回去在左下角这个位置我就提供各位建议它是一个矩阵的对应第一个是A Affordability"},{"start":4339.104,"end":4361.289,"text":"accountabilityadaptability最后achievability达到多少那右边的D就是你把系统裂解或是谈判的团队裂解然后去diffusediffusionderisk最后decouple你做对应的时候最后找到一个折中妥协你可承受的这个数据"},{"start":4361.869,"end":4379.889,"text":"作为我们谈判的一个底线的参考那这种东西呢都要挂上AI所产生的数据资料库那这个方法论我的建议是把它纳到我们外交学院做一个课程讨论那大家可以共同努力的精进那有了对方的方法的研究的"},{"start":4380.45,"end":4403.762,"text":"脉络我们就是预印而不是如何反应这个时候就把我们的底线还有我们的国防产业民间产业机械产业高科技产业通通把它纳进来把它分类套进去所以这里面像美方公布的图表从32减到20它的税率还是以补美国的贸易赤字为它的涉及目标"},{"start":4405.427,"end":4423.183,"text":"加上未來232要怎麼談這個方法論如果納到外交學院我們的同仁可以大家互動學習做一個參考副總代表您先回去下一個我們就談了外交部要"},{"start":4424.335,"end":4442.442,"text":"站在看到要援助俄乌啊啊这个战争出来我们是基于人道的精神啊友邦民主的价值我们提供协助这个三年半的结果实在是啊这个国破家毁三合在啊世代精英已经毁掉了那无序战争寻和平我用这个图来解释啊"},{"start":4444.005,"end":4464.844,"text":"第一个如果要谈判我们希望了解到当年2015年的2月12号的明斯克二号条款在白俄罗斯谈判当时有法国德国俄罗斯跟乌克兰成立一个欧洲的协会然后监督然后个别进去谈那谈出来的结果从2月24开打"},{"start":4465.524,"end":4479.199,"text":"其实打到六月份地面战争的情势已经就没有改变了除了高科技的运用Starlink倒进去无人机各种系统可是地面战斗没有胜负了也就是说这个三年的结果"},{"start":4480.356,"end":4500.244,"text":"到这个月的24号就是三年半了现在还差十天也就是说战争的这个惨痛代价是没有赢家的那我们外交协商是提供一个最佳的磋商手段那右边的这张图就是当年这个2月24开打的战场情势"},{"start":4501.064,"end":4529.327,"text":"再加上下面的明斯克二号条款的十三条那这个呢欧欧谈判呢我们会要做成一个结构做点分析从美国的立场中共的角色这个欧盟的角色这个Zelensky他的态度跟俄国态度这中间美国要求是折中妥协如何换利如何谈判这个外交部要他做深入的研究那最主要就是有一点重点"},{"start":4529.807,"end":4551.07,"text":"俄乌战争给我们的经验很多人讲说今天的乌克兰明天的台湾这个例子惨痛的教训不必付第二次代价学习社会的韧性老百姓维护自由民主的决心这个我们都很肯定但是乌克兰是台湾面积的16.7倍那有一个数据很重要就是"},{"start":4551.912,"end":4579.511,"text":"我们因为高科技的发展这个AI的制造制程这个IC chip的制造是耗电所以我们台湾年度内每一个人均的耗电量是乌克兰的3.4倍可是乌克兰还有三个核电厂它的领土面积大它的供电设施的电网分布很广也就是说它的redundancy很强这一点我们台湾因为我们的"},{"start":4580.686,"end":4598.355,"text":"所有的配電輸送幾乎沿的都是在西海岸所以電網的強化跟社會的韌性結構它要整合將來我們可能跟我們友好的國家合作協調看看有沒有技術輸出或轉移或合作將來的"},{"start":4600.322,"end":4626.572,"text":"这高电压的输送能不能走地下化因为像现在这个图光乌克兰乌冬的战场就是两个台湾那至于像加萨走廊就是上角的这个失去电力没有医疗系统我们站在人道精神外交部不管是援助难民或者协助以色列做这些资讯分享尤其是"},{"start":4627.608,"end":4644.833,"text":"对不分国籍的难民的援助我想外交部扮演一个很重要的角色那将来要合作协助乌克兰的重建我想在电网的电力分配这是一个我们互动学习的一个角色这边以上的建议提供部长您做个参考谢谢委员"},{"start":4645.97,"end":4663.723,"text":"我想不只要列入外交學院我想請委員來上課我們盡快來安排因為剛剛提到的方法論還有現在針對俄烏戰爭的這個涉及能源還有整個韌性我們我覺得這個是委員會看到就是戰爭當然這個持久"},{"start":4667.749,"end":4678.172,"text":"但是外交還是最後要上場才能夠解決戰爭所產生的這些問題謝謝陳永康委員的質詢接下來由羅美玲上台質詢"},{"start":4702.449,"end":4716.572,"text":"謝謝主席 有請經貿辦我們的副總談判代表 顏慧欣委員好"},{"start":4717.313,"end":4722.717,"text":"是 副總代表好雖然說我們目前20%的暫時性稅率在8月7號的時候已經生效了可是其實談判還在進行當中美國的財政部部長貝森特也有提到其實還沒有完成貿易協議的國家其實在10月底以前會完成我有看到曾立軍副院長他有提到希望在未來的談判過程當中"},{"start":4749.896,"end":4755.221,"text":"當然各位有聽到我們希望能夠爭取到20%以下或者是說爭取到不疊加我想請問我們的談判團隊目前我們的談判的籌碼你們是否有信心做到可以爭取到20%以下或是不疊加"},{"start":4769.954,"end":4778.877,"text":"因為根據本辦公室有整理出美國前十大貿易逆差國以目前的對等的關稅來說比如說像歐盟它承諾必須投資7500億美元然後日本它也承諾要投資5500億美元像韓國也有說要承諾是要投資4000億美元是不是一定要投資到一定的金額我們才有希望將關稅降到15%或是上下左右"},{"start":4799.865,"end":4825.565,"text":"我想請問一下報告委員我想每個國家跟美國的產業結構經貿關係都不同所以他們在跟美國談判所承諾的內容那大概就是按照他們跟美國的談判需求跟回應的方式那就台灣來說因為美國基本上他跟所有的對等談判的貿易對手國都是提出了要處理"},{"start":4826.526,"end":4843.071,"text":"他長期以來他所關切的關稅非關稅的相關問題然後要去降低貿易逆差所以就台灣來說我們也就是就美國希望去解決的放在這些agenda這個會議議程上面的內容去做處理所以我想就台灣來說"},{"start":4844.111,"end":4866.997,"text":"所有台灣能夠去強調的特別是我們會去跟美國說明的是台灣本身的產業利益還有包括台灣在特別像很多的產業上面我們是先進的製造而這個製造是跟美國之間是產業是相輔相成互補互利的這個狀態我想這個就是台灣在談判上面最佳的優勢"},{"start":4868.217,"end":4896.124,"text":"所以你認為這些是所以美國能夠接受的一些所謂談判的一些籌碼跟理由嗎你認為這是嗎因為我們所看到美國說實在的它一直很希望就是說產業能夠回流到美國我想加碼投資一定是它在談判過程當中一個非常重要的一個過程跟要求所以像先前的話像這個台積電也承諾就是要投資兩千億"},{"start":4897.924,"end":4909.847,"text":"美金那這會不會是我們在談判過程當中在投資金額裡面這個部分有包進來嗎台積電的部分有沒有包進來那當然我知道說我們也拋出了就是說未來我們的這個國防的預算的編列也會超過這個GDP的3%可是到目前"},{"start":4916.349,"end":4935.408,"text":"甚至百分之三以上目前的话在谈判的过程当中似乎这一点还没有进入到真正谈判的过程当中我们有提出了这个说法可是美方这边在谈判的过程并没有提及这个部分像这个部分也会算是我们的优势吗我们谈判的优势吗"},{"start":4936.361,"end":4962.649,"text":"所以跟委員報告關於像這些投資有關的議題如同我剛才一開始所提到的這些議題本身如果美國他認為可以去處理他的貿易逆差然後可以去重建所謂美國的供應鏈然後以及再工業化的目的的話我相信美國都會提出他的需求就台灣來說我們當然也希望在配合台灣企業本身在擴大對美國投資"},{"start":4964.449,"end":4977.163,"text":"對於全球的戰略佈局的趨勢之下我們希望去配合我們台灣本身自己的佈局第二個因為我們希望在對等關稅的談判裡面也可以一併納入232相關的議題"},{"start":4980.146,"end":5000.568,"text":"那232的議題它實際上就是涉及到台灣現在對美國貿易逆差的這些半導體產業它是佔了九成以上就是九成以上我們的半導體產業是構成現在台美貿易逆差的主要來源所以我們會希望在對等關稅的談判裡面也把這些跟半導體有關的232調查一併納入談判"},{"start":5002.35,"end":5029.445,"text":"所以这个当然就会涉及到一个比较整体性的台美供应链的合作及投资布局的这些问题所以这个就是台湾目前希望去整合性处理的一个方式OK 了解那当然刚刚我在您的这个报告里面你有提到就是说美国现在积极推动成为世界AI中心然后台美高科技供应链呢长期互补合作那等等所以我们也希望说我们的企业能够扩大的来投资在美国的这个投资"},{"start":5029.765,"end":5036.528,"text":"那我想請教 像之前我有留意到這個媒體的報導它有提到就是說像韓國的企業界它的關鍵人脈成了這個談判很重要的助力像韓國在對等關稅的談判當中像三星電子會長的會長李在榮現代汽車的會長鄭逸軒那還有韓華集團副董事長的金東關等"},{"start":5051.633,"end":5064.958,"text":"重量級的企業領袖在7月下旬的時候就到美國去直接跟美國的政界商界要角來做接觸表達要做長期的投資的意願所以我們發現說經過那次之後後來韓國很成功地將關稅從25%降到15%所以我們在談判的過程當中是不是有邀請像我國的一些像重量級的一些企業參與協商跟遊說譬如像台積建"},{"start":5081.345,"end":5108.711,"text":"尤其剛剛我們有提到說美國在布局這個AI的這部分那我們的一些高科技產業的這些這些國內的這個企業有沒有參與被邀請參與這一次的關稅的談判呢報告委員我們在談判的過程當中基本上要去形塑台灣自己本身的談判立場上所以我們當然有去了解個別的去了解或者有透過座談會的方式去掌握我們的高科技產業或傳產產業他們對於"},{"start":5111.412,"end":5130.078,"text":"美國對等關稅談判的期待以及他們的需求那所以呢我想台灣特別是台灣本來跟美國的供應鏈就非常的緊密合作不論是這些GoogleApple都是台灣這些我們主要的產業代工的密切合作的"},{"start":5130.518,"end":5149.562,"text":"美國企業所以就台灣政府來說我們一定會透過各種的企業的人脈或者各種的管道來協助我們在對美談判的這個進程上面可以更順利而且把台灣的不論是產業或政府的聲音可以讓美國的這個政府高層可以更掌握實際的台美產業的脈動"},{"start":5155.223,"end":5180.346,"text":"是 沒錯 我就是注意到就是說像我們就會舉辦國內的企業的這個座談可是像韓國的他們這種直接把企業界拉到美國直接去參與談判這個方式這是我們沒有考慮過的我們目前只是收集這些企業的這個聲音然後再跟美國做反應可是他們沒有想到就是說讓他們到第一線去參與這個談判這個部分目前是沒有考慮的"},{"start":5182.25,"end":5201.955,"text":"因為我看起來他們這個好像是還滿成功的一個例子跟委員報告就是韓國企業他們去做這個談判因為這是媒體所揭露的資訊所以他們自己是不是實際參與談判這個部分我們無法確認"},{"start":5208.012,"end":5219.646,"text":"是 OK好 那沒關係我想想所有可能可以讓這個關稅降低或是任何一個有利的這個條件我在想我們應該都是要積極來做這個參考那因為時間的關係所以那這次的關稅呢確實"},{"start":5224.392,"end":5242.277,"text":"很多產業其實也受到了一些的衝擊像不管是在工業 農業 製造業都有所以我在想說我們中央其實還是要及早來做這個準備及早來做這個協助讓這些企業能夠一起度過這個難關OK 好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝羅美玲委員的諮詢下面我們請黃仁委員就諮詢台 謝謝"},{"start":5261.001,"end":5273.644,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席 有請我們林部長請林部長謝謝委員好部長好 那個 這樣子好"},{"start":5274.882,"end":5295.559,"text":"這個很多現在沸沸揚揚的我們國人現在外界非常不解的地方就是根據香港南華早報和多家以色列的媒體的報導外交部可能監管以色列在耶誕河西岸屯墾區的醫療計畫"},{"start":5298.101,"end":5326.99,"text":"那外交部雖然在這個之前在記者會上回應是基於健康無國界的原則但乃在討論中外交部並沒有否認此一計畫那請問一下部長此次的發起是單純的還是以台以雙方外交事務還是有美國的因素在當中是否屬於政府常常提到的民主同盟的一環那如果"},{"start":5328.93,"end":5351.158,"text":"這個經過討論最後外交部乃實施捐助是否評估過可能會引發哪一些風險這些風險會不會造成外交的危機所以本席在從國際法的角度提醒外交部那根據第一個1949年日內瓦第四公約第49條"},{"start":5352.836,"end":5372.623,"text":"禁止佔領國際江起平民遷移至被佔領地那2004年的國際法國際法院諮詢意見中曾經認定以色列在巴勒斯坦領土的建設行為已經違反了國際法"},{"start":5373.763,"end":5388.155,"text":"那所以 諸此之內我們2016聯合國安理會在第2334號決議指出以色列在巴勒斯坦被佔領地的定期活動"},{"start":5388.815,"end":5413.928,"text":"以构成和平的障礙如果滕肯齊本身被國際社會認定為非法那麼我國的直接資助不管任何項目就算外交部解釋是基於人道主義都會被視為間接承認或支持滕肯齊的合法性甚至被認為是協助以色列鞏固非法佔領區"},{"start":5416.149,"end":5444.118,"text":"部長今天我提到的你們現在要慎重的思考有沒有在考慮清楚這個將來以後如果資助了以色列會不會有違法或是將來會有一個危險性你回答一下謝謝委員因為外交部的發言人已經速度有說明我們政府並沒有資助有關於屯墾期的相關計畫"},{"start":5445.518,"end":5474.192,"text":"那我們跟以色列的關係其中2006年有簽訂衛生合作協定是基於這個樣子在辦理對於醫療跟人道的援助而且我們也確實有包括支持包括像黎巴嫩的難民或是巴勒斯坦人那同樣以色列這一次受到攻擊的相關區域跟對象那因此"},{"start":5474.992,"end":5482.197,"text":"所謂的這個人道援助建立在這個前提上怎麼去執行的時候要符合國際的規範這一點我們一定會注意因為謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":5488.305,"end":5516.34,"text":"因為我們在今年的五月歐盟歐洲會議議員團來台時外交部還發新聞稿表示要攜手強化民主的韌性共同建構穩固結附會的一個價值的問題價值同盟但歐盟基於人權價值在2009年就通過以色列同肯西商品標籤政策認為"},{"start":5517.521,"end":5540.4,"text":"同肯區已經是構成了一個戰爭罪因此至少應該在讓歐洲的消費者在購買商品的時候就能先確認產地是不是以色列還是同肯區如果我國真的經營以色列同肯區的話未來我們在尋求國際的支持對抗中國大陸侵略威脅時"},{"start":5541.361,"end":5560.9,"text":"恐怕會失去了立場部長你這個要特別注意到未來我們的立場一定要穩固不要失去立場到時候我們沒有辦法對外好不好好我一定會秉持總和外交結合不管價值外交同盟外交跟經濟的外交"},{"start":5562.401,"end":5570.726,"text":"在以色列的關係上因為這一次包括以哈的衝突或者是跟伊朗之間的戰爭國際也都有因應我們也知道中國是包括伊朗背後的支持者所以整個地緣政治跟全球的一個戰略台灣確實要有靈活的外交這個有空間但是我們要有一些"},{"start":5585.354,"end":5603.733,"text":"我想針對這個以色列的支柱的部分你要慎重考慮將來以後會有危機國際危機好不好我想說你們要慎重的考慮那我想請經濟部江次長好 謝謝部長"},{"start":5610.834,"end":5637.7,"text":"我這裡特別嚴重嚴重的這是題外的事物上次我在4月10號之前我請你告訴郭部長還要在慈義東豐東城路易豐店在台東大武在8月12號在那個地方抗議民眾都抗議了"},{"start":5639.062,"end":5653.291,"text":"還要再准預他們這樣的一個來說明陸域風電是不是設置的問題混蛋跟郭部長講一下他以下的這些公司任意讓他們在我們的部落裡面"},{"start":5655.277,"end":5669.965,"text":"來發表擾民我們都已經表達反對你們也出了一個公文如果地方鄉公所也好縣政府也好還有民眾如果反對"},{"start":5671.306,"end":5688.12,"text":"就不要再讓他們繼續的在那邊進行一個說明跟擾民你們在質疑因為這個事業是在郭部長之前他的下游的公司裡面東神跟豐利第一發電包含東豐的這個豐利第一發電"},{"start":5692.944,"end":5716.351,"text":"那為什麼你們還要執意的這樣子來執行讓他們在那個地方我之前已經提出了請提出嚴正的調查東城地域風力發電到底有沒有構成擾民在那地方說明我們都已經表達了全力的反對設置"},{"start":5719.451,"end":5741.626,"text":"我們的陸域風電這已經構成了在地方的環境的破壞市長你能不能跟部長講一下不要老是這樣的一個沒有政策影響我們地方環境的環保包含觀光的地方你們這樣子來質疑你告訴給郭部長"},{"start":5744.437,"end":5767.61,"text":"是委員我回去會跟部長做報告報告什麼就是剛才委員有要我4月13號的時候都已經跟你講了到底有沒有報告了有 之前我回去有說明那怎麼回答的報告委員 這個路易封店如果要執行的話必須一定要地方政府的同意地方政府沒有同意的話你還要執意讓他們做說明會嗎我回去會再轉達"},{"start":5774.562,"end":5800.396,"text":"是你們執意讓他們默認在地方他是因為郭部長以下游以前的下游的公司裡面在那個地方做說明會告成了擾民讓我們部落的鄉親就在那邊拿著桿子 拿著布條來抗議 反對 滾出去還敢再這樣子來搞下去了"},{"start":5801.377,"end":5804.459,"text":"麻煩你通知郭部長不要再亂搞了是次長你請回謝謝辛苦我們下面請這個陳俊宇委員質詢發言謝謝"},{"start":5833.615,"end":5837.321,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們先請林佳龍部長"},{"start":5845.046,"end":5863.996,"text":"部長早 委員早部長想先就這個我們關稅談判的部分來就教部長目前我們在進行中的這個關稅談判經過上週本委員會的一個會議以及在本週一經由我們曾立軍副院長還有行政團隊的說明之後那對於這個當前的情況"},{"start":5866.897,"end":5894.045,"text":"我相信民眾應該都進一步的清楚啦那對於近日已經實施上路的這個暫行關稅的這個稅率的部分我想請教部長就您所知的部分對於台灣已經開始實施的這個20%暫時性稅率會實施多久那有沒有能夠觀察它的相關的一個指標那與美國的這個協議內容是否會簽訂這個書面的文件"},{"start":5894.935,"end":5901.277,"text":"是 跟委員報告我們當然在鄭麗君副院長領導下的談判團隊其實都備好方案那也跟這個USTR 美國貿易代表署"},{"start":5914.202,"end":5926.097,"text":"談得到一個就是接近可以發表聲明不過當然這個也涉及到包括因為台美關係還有包括半導體跟這些資通訊產業尤其是232的條款所以這之間會有一些關聯性"},{"start":5930.262,"end":5933.643,"text":"那再來當然我們也知道川普總統很在乎投資美國那台灣是少數其實是可以結合成就是說台美這個聯合艦隊在半導體AI產業上的發展所以這個之間確實會互相影響另外一個就是當然台灣是現在幾乎是唯一被降的這個所謂暫時關稅但是還保持"},{"start":5955.187,"end":5960.929,"text":"談判就等著川普總統最後綜合考慮這個確實是互相會有一些影響不過我想就談判團隊來講在對等關稅就是全力以赴先能夠把這個32%降下來變成20%那後續的發展當然會跟其他的台美之間的經貿這個互動會有一些可能的關係"},{"start":5978.413,"end":5995.406,"text":"好那我們都是還在持續談判當中大家還是關注的就是最終的這個稅率那有沒有可能美國對所有的國家的這個稅率都會是暫時性的稅率那未來將會在各種情況下隨時做調整有沒有可能"},{"start":5996.074,"end":6006.741,"text":"其實不多啦除了美中跟美台之間之外其他基本上美國因為它最主要涉及到貿易的這個數字啦那對美國來講貿易逆差比較多的國家裡面當然剩下台灣跟中國這個是兩大的對象那其他的都已經差不多定了雖然跟美日之間還沒有到書面詳細的這個確定已經先做一些宣布但是基本上"},{"start":6026.365,"end":6033.57,"text":"就是說就是台灣算是特別那也代表我們談判的團隊努力能夠爭取到更多的時間就台美可能的經貿不管是貿易投資或未來的科技產業的發展能夠有更全面的討論好"},{"start":6048.092,"end":6074.987,"text":"接下來我想要請教的問題跟農業部有關我想請杜次長先上台也請部長先等一下有關農漁業所面臨的危機四月份對於對等關稅宣布以來有幾項的農漁產品被列為衝擊比較大的名單當中其中鬼頭刀鬼頭刀的部分"},{"start":6075.487,"end":6091.108,"text":"是最受影響的漁產之一在全台灣每年我們從屏東到宜蘭的南方澳捕獲的鬼頭刀大概是四五千公噸左右主要外銷的市場以美國為主"},{"start":6092.31,"end":6113.48,"text":"那其中有很大的部分這個宜蘭南方澳的漁港大概佔了三成那我想在這段時間我們也聽到許多這個漁民對於這個這方面表達他們的擔憂因為在目前所實施的這個暫時性關稅之下相較以往從0%一下子就變成20%了那"},{"start":6116.527,"end":6135.813,"text":"他們最希望當然是還能夠談判到比較低的一個稅率也希望能夠獲得政府比較大的一個支持那幫助他們度過這個眼前的難關我想目前最大的這些競爭的國家他們對等的關稅包括秘魯他只有10%那厄瓜多是15%越南20%"},{"start":6137.193,"end":6161.334,"text":"那對等關稅的這個提高可能會促使美國在他們的進口商在尋找替代的供應來源的時候譬如他們會向中南美洲的這些國家來進口那會面臨的這個銷價競爭恐怕都會是對台灣漁民這個生計造成相當大的影響那對這個部分我想請教我們農業部有沒有什麼因應的辦法"},{"start":6162.579,"end":6183.647,"text":"首先先感謝委員支持農業特別是在漁業的這一塊那我們也知道這一次談判算即使是暫時的結果20%的暫時性關稅但是確實是比原來的0%確實是增加那對漁業的影響特別是軌道道部分大概就像委員說的三個部分第一個我們希望當然是繼續談希望能把這個關稅再談低"},{"start":6185.848,"end":6206.86,"text":"希望這一定要繼續努力那第二個對這個產業的支持那當然是要再增加那怎麼支持因為遠洋漁業其實大概有兩個部分第一個是在漁船認證部分我們這邊來協助那第二個是在他的多元行銷我們包括在冷鏈在加工煤盒在協助拓展其他市場之後我們也會繼續來做那第三個更重要的是資金"},{"start":6207.72,"end":6225.635,"text":"我想對於這段時間所有漁民受到的影響在資金上面的支持對他們來講非常有幫助而且能協助他們渡過這個難關我想農業部絕對跟我們農漁民在一起謝謝委員提醒也謝謝委員支持市長您也直接回答我接下來要問的問題我想在我們補助方面我們之前我也請教過了"},{"start":6230.899,"end":6246.702,"text":"在我們冷鏈設備的提升目前補助只有50%這個部分我想說請我們農業部是不是可以研究看看能夠全額來補助幫助漁民來這個協助他們在這個相關設施上的申請這是第一點"},{"start":6247.202,"end":6274.154,"text":"那在開拓多元市場的部分我想我們除了外銷部分外銷部分我們是不是有辦法再去開拓新的市場比如歐盟或其他國家那內銷的部分我們是不是可以打開我們國內的相關的通路讓我們這些漁產也可以在國內做這個更好的一個行銷我想這方面還是請我們這個農業部這邊來協助另外還有一個我要提醒就是在"},{"start":6275.542,"end":6301.062,"text":"剛剛我們所質詢的這些內容還有我們關稅的相關問題其實我們要去了解這些內容已經非常的這個要非常的用心去了解啦所以有一些漁民或是農民可能對於這些資訊沒有辦法那麼的詳盡的了解我想在這個這個政令的宣傳或是相關的這個傳達訊息的時候我希望我們農業部能夠再做一些"},{"start":6301.502,"end":6306.798,"text":"比較簡化的這些傳達的方式讓農漁民可以直接了解相關的內容"},{"start":6307.23,"end":6333.329,"text":"好 謝謝委員提醒 我相信跟我們的漁民社會講最簡單最直接的方法 他們最容易了解所以我們很樂意去跟他們談 第一個當然就是說政府有哪些措施他可以怎麼來申請 這點要跟我詳澈他才知道說原來有這些幫助可以來提出那第二個就是剛剛提到的不管是國外的新市場 那漁船的認證國內的我們也沒和加工廠來做多元訊號這我們都會繼續來做 真的謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":6333.789,"end":6359.376,"text":"好那另外一個簡單的問一下我們次長就是豬肉的部分那在宜蘭縣現在是量少價養對於這個攤商來講大概是週休4日那未來有可能會週休5日那對這個部分我們農業部有沒有對於這個豬肉市場的部分有什麼因應的方式是有可能進口嗎加大這個進口量嗎"},{"start":6360.576,"end":6387.85,"text":"應該這樣說啦就是就國內豬園的部分我們當然自己供應大概國內需求大概90%這是我們國產豬肉因為大家對台灣豬肉確實是比較有喜好跟信心那進口當然也有進口因為特別是加工業他們會用進口豬肉去做一些這個加工產品的一些補充那所以就最近老實講確實也是因為這個天氣的關係那也是因為中原節我們接下來有一些需求會增加我們這個部分就是調節台塘一些大豬場"},{"start":6388.55,"end":6411.145,"text":"看能不能增工一些那第二個就是就加工業者的部分他們自己也就是少抓一些國內的豬肉由他們自己的冷凍庫存的進口肉去做一些補充所以大概是這樣雙管齊下來做調節因為接下來除了中元節以外還有一個中秋節整個我們國內的這個市場需求量應該會提高啦也請我們農業部應該是儘早做好準備啦不管是這個關稅的談判還是說這個農漁"},{"start":6419.071,"end":6435.13,"text":"畜牧產業所面臨的相關危機我也請我們農業部能夠積極地來採取相關的因應措施的辦法讓我們的產業以及民生的衝擊影響都能夠降到最低以符合民眾的需求好 謝謝"},{"start":6438.746,"end":6449.05,"text":"謝謝陳琦琦委員發言接下來由王定宇委員發言那待會我們在馬文清委員執行完畢之後休息五分鐘謝謝主席我先麻煩我們經濟部次長還有顏惠欣副總談判代表"},{"start":6471.414,"end":6500.155,"text":"委員好我先請教一下副總談判代表我們現在看昨天川普宣布中國的部分是在延後90天嘛暫停90天他們現在目前的暫行關稅是多少他們現在暫行關稅是55%55%是疊加的還是excluded他是include他是疊加的他也是疊加所以他把原來稅再加上55%對暫行90天嘛是那我們台灣現在正跟"},{"start":6500.851,"end":6517.137,"text":"美國要進到最後一個階段就是concluding的這個會議就是總結會議我們的總結會議的期程會不會因為美國跟中國的關稅談判受到影響"},{"start":6521.117,"end":6546.868,"text":"報告委員我想這個台灣這是國際的局勢國際的局勢上面每一個國家跟美國的談判都是個別進行的最近有一些專家講的是這一次談判跟以往的經貿談判完全不一樣川普給的時間很短要談的國家近百個 很多所以每個國家面對的變化環境很快所以沒有一個國家可以"},{"start":6547.819,"end":6576.759,"text":"即時連談判的代表在當下可能都沒辦法第一時間掌握到即時的資訊更遑論對自己的這個授權的政府能夠提供即時的資訊或透明化這個是這一次談判的困難點我昨天看了一個我們以前的老同事國民黨的這個學人立委他現在在美國智庫擔任研究員他特別點出來這一次的談判其實大家不要用黨派去批判這個事情各國面對的困境是一樣然後呢"},{"start":6578.093,"end":6603.703,"text":"疊加從4月份4月2號到4月9號我們就知道疊加是通則那不疊加日本跟歐盟是要付出一定的代價才決定不疊加甚至於日本的不疊加好像公告好像還沒有看到嘛對所以到底會不會變日本人也炒在蛋啦就他那個不疊加事實上白宮沒有公告出來喔那我要回到我要問的命題我們剛才知道中國昨天被宣布暫緩90天"},{"start":6605.785,"end":6610.477,"text":"有人說這好消息有人說壞消息我們就是持平來講55%的疊加稅率在維持90天中國的出口競爭力"},{"start":6614.646,"end":6638.602,"text":"會受到很大的影響那台灣的產業我待會要請教經濟部就是我們常常講產業受損產業受損產業受損要看兩塊我進到美國是我們最大的出口市場加上稅我的成本提高那我產品有沒有不可替代性如果產品具有不可替代性那誰倒楣消費者倒楣你要付多一點錢那如果我產品有被替代性那我要看什麼我要看我的競爭國"},{"start":6639.623,"end":6659.672,"text":"它是多少稅所以比方說以螺絲螺帽我們的第一大競爭對象是中國它是55%疊加我們是20%疊加那在競爭的優勢上我不敢講我們的競爭優勢是下降因為它加了55%嘛所以這個經貿要這樣看所以我回到請教我們這個嚴副總談判代表"},{"start":6661.089,"end":6688.273,"text":"大家關心的是好我們現在講這是暫時狀態那暫時狀態也不會太久了但我剛才問的一個命題就是在整個台美的談判當中中國當然是有影響不管是避免他來洗產地或者是他經過台灣中轉美國現在對越南越南的20%有加一個但書欸中國過來的變40%欸所以很明顯這一次關稅談判如果硬要扯一個罪魁禍首就中國啊"},{"start":6688.773,"end":6710.606,"text":"就是針對中國的一個圍堵政策所以回到我們現在進行的總結談判總結談判就會有一個最終我們得到的結論要不然我們就是20%疊加所以我該請教的問題很簡單我們總結談判是不是在進行中我們的期程會不會受中國延後90天受到影響 如果會那我這90天內我就不能期待了嘛就你的判斷"},{"start":6711.659,"end":6723.975,"text":"跟委員報告 如同我一開始所說的整個這一次台美的這個對等關稅談判或者是美國跟各國的這個對等關稅談判地緣政治是一個很重要的因素"},{"start":6724.528,"end":6746.183,"text":"所以呢那我覺得地緣政治是美國本身看起來它的一個策略性或戰略性上面的考量但是有沒有涉及到特定的國家我想我在這邊就不便進一步幫美國說明那有沒有得到任何的implication或者什麼就是我們的談判的期程因為當年我們在進那個WTO的時候當時是國際協議就是要一起公佈"},{"start":6753.56,"end":6765.354,"text":"那我不曉得我們這一次的最後的總結談判有沒有這樣的氛圍啦我不要講說有什麼樣的現象或者事實有沒有的氛圍就是我們的最終談判的期程可能還要再等"},{"start":6767.277,"end":6791.328,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們談判就是一個互動的過程所以我們跟美國現在就是還沒有進行到最終的總結性會議而且我們想要把232這些議題跟對等關稅一起處理這個也會涉及到比較複雜性的討論232對台灣影響其實比較大因為我們對美的deficit我們的赤字90%其實是來自於資通訊產品"},{"start":6792.108,"end":6814.776,"text":"ICT產業那ICT產業只要裡面裝的晶片在美國有設廠的都可以豁免變0%那對台灣來講其實赤字不會掉下來第二個就沒有解決赤字問題然後台灣被衝擊到的這一塊產業是沒有衝擊到那我就請教經濟部那個那個嚴副總裁可以輕輕請回座"},{"start":6815.52,"end":6835.695,"text":"所以我就要回到經濟衝擊這一塊第一個我們對美赤字其實90%來自於ICT產業可是它又因為它在美國有設廠所以它的產品它的那個基板上面只要有那些晶片它可以得到100%的關稅的豁免然後呢現在疊加的關稅誰在付代價傳統產業或者農業你知道嗎 就是"},{"start":6843.806,"end":6868.961,"text":"因為這樣子導致貿易赤字所以我們談判會比較困難結果他又因為在美國有設廠所以他可能要豁免結果北鳥要受罪就換成傳統產業疊加關稅是卡在他身上所以這一點上我們國內的ICT產業其實會因而直接或間接受益所以從那邊得到的稅收應該要相當額度的來補貼我們的傳統產業跟農業這樣才合理"},{"start":6873.334,"end":6892.661,"text":"我認為我們的科技產業獲利對台灣是好事畢竟它是我們重要的產業可是這一次的談判是因為貿易赤字是其中一個主要的因素而疊加的關稅又沒有疊到他身上就變成傳統產業要幫忙負擔這個赤字你懂我的邏輯意思嗎所以我先請教在這一個目前關稅疊加的狀況下"},{"start":6894.702,"end":6919.249,"text":"我們造成出口美國市場的成本會增加我剛已經講了如果我們的產品具有不可替代性那沒關係就是美國消費者要買貴一點的東西但是如果我們的產品具有可替代性我就要看競爭對手的關稅你們現在這個評估報告出來了沒有報告委員我分兩點來說明第一點就是因為我們也了解到這些傳統產業可能會受影響"},{"start":6922.16,"end":6943.019,"text":"經濟部在特別條例的部分也特別這個編列了希望能夠編列460億來照顧這些業者尤其是我們的中小企業那第二個部分委員有提到有競爭性的產品確實我們也有做一些初步的研析例如像我們比較關注的產業像水五金扣件"},{"start":6944.039,"end":6965.428,"text":"水五金的產品它其實原本的競爭的對手就包括越南跟中國但是現在中國的稅非常的高尤其又疊加之後相較之下我們確實是在關稅的部分是較中國為低但是我們還是要持續因為我們現在談判還在進行當中當然是希望能夠"},{"start":6966.329,"end":6985.086,"text":"爭取更優惠的這個關稅我們都希望關稅越低越好最好大家都是零但是要付出我們國內市場的代價那我們現在面對一個暫時性的現實就是20%的疊加當然有的人從4月份就不讀書都認為說這個疊加是新聞沒有疊加從一開始就有了"},{"start":6985.816,"end":7007.131,"text":"而且全世界都有日本跟歐盟的不疊加也是最近談判結果才把它解放出來其他都是疊加的我再問一個命題就是我們都希望關稅越低越好那個叫成本我出口到美國100塊錢加了20%再加原有的稅可能變成135塊那叫我的成本"},{"start":7008.123,"end":7036.107,"text":"那我現在面對競爭者的時候你剛才就講一個很好的事情像水五金跟扣件扣件就是我們講螺絲螺帽我們的主要競爭對手是越南跟中國而中國是55%疊加所以當兩個產品到美國報價的時候大家都會變貴但是中國要比我們貴更多那對我們的競爭力其實在現況上並不是下降的"},{"start":7037.065,"end":7057.384,"text":"所以這個東西要出來甚至要幫助我們的業者因為現在在搶聖誕節訂單跟明年第一季的訂單要幫助我們的業者像美國這邊說台灣的品質更好加了20%關稅比那個加55%的我們相較起來更有價格的競爭優勢要協助業者那如果失去競爭優勢的我們的400多億的輔導就要進場協助他"},{"start":7061.849,"end":7069.681,"text":"這樣才能夠讓業者趕快安心下來這牽涉到很多人的就業機會然後像蘭花蘭花我們的競爭對手也是越南跟荷蘭"},{"start":7071.894,"end":7097.019,"text":"看不同的藍種荷蘭他們現在是15%的樣子歐盟國家 歐盟嘛 15%嘛可是他是不疊加喔那我們的藍花是20%要疊加那藍花業者面對荷蘭我們競爭優勢就往下掉可是我們另外一個競爭對手是越南越南在中低價位的跟我們是競爭對手那越南的藍花是20%疊加跟我們一樣那大家評分"},{"start":7099.54,"end":7110.657,"text":"可是越南如果他的藍種什麼來自於中國什麼的他變40%我希望經濟部把這個分析寫精細一點讓每個業者知道我現在的競爭優勢到底是加還是減還是平盤然後他減之後他需要什麼樣的協助"},{"start":7115.764,"end":7143.547,"text":"是行政的協助資金的協助技術的協助很具體的告訴他我可以短期融資多少中期什麼東西然後呢談判辦這邊在盡快把總結會議趕快談出來這樣整套國家策略才清晰這樣懂我意思嗎所以談判當中我們不為難有些資訊事實上也不是第一個要保密第二個是談判資訊是在變動當中很難很難立即掌握那我們只希望談判辦跟我們經貿單位"},{"start":7145.088,"end":7171.405,"text":"盡快的在總結會議幫台灣爭取一個比較好的競爭位置那我今天本來一堆要問外交部的事情我就下次再請教林部長了好 謝謝謝謝王定義委員的質詢那我們外交部部長林佳龍來四點半以後因為有要事請假由政務次長陳明錫來代為練習那接下來由沈伯陽召委上台質詢"},{"start":7186.684,"end":7193.148,"text":"謝謝主席 有請經貿辦的副總代表還有經濟部次長 謝謝國遠好"},{"start":7204.844,"end":7223.009,"text":"你好 這個剛剛這一個前面其實已經講了滿多就是說關於這些關稅疊加的這件事情我現在比較想知道就是說這個是在我們經濟部國貿署上面有做這一個關稅懶人包然後有說到底我的產品會不會受到影響等等之類的"},{"start":7224.009,"end":7244.584,"text":"但是這邊我想要知道一下就是說其實以各個產業來講不管現在是在4月公佈還是說在近期內公佈的時候他們對於自己的這一個產品會受到多少的關稅它的本身有沒有理解就是說經濟部在跟他們溝通的這個整個過程當中這些產業他們自己知不知道這些事情"},{"start":7246.611,"end":7272.664,"text":"委員好 這個國內產業溝通的部分是不是可以請經濟部來協助回答好 那我先講一下這其實也就是剛剛的這一個疑問就是說剛剛前面有幾位委員一直在質詢比如說這個數字到底是幾點幾%這個數字到底是幾點幾%的時候這其實是經濟部可以回答的事情 對不對但是我剛剛看到很多時候都是在問對外的談判代表說到底是多少%這個數字到底是多少"},{"start":7273.424,"end":7278.847,"text":"這種方式的質詢其實無助解決問題那這邊的確是一個經濟部比較熟悉的這一個數字那是不是請次長回答一下這個問題是報告委員我們確實有跟所有的相關的產業協會"},{"start":7288.851,"end":7304.157,"text":"工協會都有做座談所以其實因為他們都是業者的代表而且他們是實際有出口到美國的業者所以他們也非常清楚他們所出口的產品產品的個別所要負擔的關稅是多少"},{"start":7305.057,"end":7325.607,"text":"因為這件事就是因為一直以來這幾天一直在討論疊加這個事情我們家這也是做出口的所以我們自己也都知道說到底有什麼產業有哪些產品它會受到影響那現在呢所以我現在有疑慮的事情就是說今天當然我們有這樣的一個表格讓業者自己可以知道但其實就像剛剛講的很多業者他是清楚的"},{"start":7325.987,"end":7345.671,"text":"但他可能不清楚的是什麼比如說像剛剛定宇委員提到的他所需要的資料有可能是他雖然現在知道跌價他也知道他現在面臨的這一個關稅可能是多少但他想要知道現在競爭力的狀況到底如何對 因為這一件事情他是完全在浮動的而且要掌握到每一個國家的情勢對每一個業者就不一定那麼容易"},{"start":7346.031,"end":7373.359,"text":"但這可能就是經濟部可以協助的部分所以這是第一個就是說關於競爭力的比較尤其是我們台灣的產品跟譬如說跟越南的產品跟中國的產品比較起來這是第一個第二個就是說剛剛其實在前面的質詢應該也有提到就是現在院裡面行政院有在討論說到底要補助或者說今天要去多少的資金來做協助現在有時候我們在遇到各個產業的時候他們最常會講到的就是我現在知道譬如說有900億的補助"},{"start":7374.679,"end":7396.449,"text":"而我可能知道接下來還有200億但問題來了就是說他們常常會講說看得到吃不到所以我覺得經濟部這邊可能有一個責任就是我們今天不是講說今天一定是要大家每個人都這一個拿得到這個金錢不是這個意思而是說當今天有這樣的一個反應的時候其實我們在第一時間公布的時候就要有一些執行的細節因為這樣"},{"start":7398.49,"end":7417.603,"text":"看的人或者說這些產業的人他才會在第一時間知道說OK 那我今天到底有沒有機會得到這一筆補助所以這個執行的細節我認為是重要的否則你在第一時間雖然有一個數字出來那院裡面可能也會覺得說這個數字我們已經定得算漂亮但一般的人民不一定是有感覺的"},{"start":7418.163,"end":7427.671,"text":"我覺得施政讓人民有感這件事情無疑是重要的所以這邊也是像這個當時的記者會有講到這個十四大措施然後930億這邊有750億下面這個是針對農業的180億我相信農業跟除了傳產以外農業的影響一定是大的"},{"start":7435.117,"end":7450.821,"text":"這是在評估的這個結果所以如果針對這一個事情的細節能夠更完整的話這個才可以讓施政讓人民有感而且他可能不一定是在記者會講他可能就是在跟各個產業溝通的時候他們就已經知道甚至他們可能在這個記者會之前就已經非常清楚"},{"start":7451.201,"end":7466.557,"text":"那就說真的如果說今天有一些政治人物他去炒作這樣的一個輿論的時候他就不容易引起這一個社會的動盪我覺得這是滿重要的一件事但我拉回來想要再問的就是說我剛剛講的都是對內的部分但我比較擔心的就是"},{"start":7467.698,"end":7486.378,"text":"這一個剛剛講的保密協定這邊可能就我再回到幾秒半就是說我們因為這種政治的操作最近真的非常非常的多但我相信就是因為關稅是國人所重視的議題所以也有很多政治人物想要操作這個議題上個禮拜當然我們有做這一個保密協議的一個出示"},{"start":7487.66,"end":7505.739,"text":"但是因為這個內容我們沒有辦法在公開的會議繼續去討論但是那一天在內部的質詢其實很多人都已經有問這個副總談判代表了是不是可以但是在這個機會是不是因為現在是一個公開的會議能不能跟大家說明一下就是說這個在國際上面尤其在談判的過程這個保密協議的一個必要性"},{"start":7507.885,"end":7537.078,"text":"我想保密協議本身都是我們對外談判可以展開的一個重要的前提因為所有的談判都是動態發展的而我們的談判基本上各國都不會揭露它的底線所以在談判的過程當中這個底線跟產業的利益跟國家利益都是要被維護的情況之下保密協議即便我們沒有保密協議我們台灣過去在跟其他國家例如說新加坡"},{"start":7537.974,"end":7563.805,"text":"這些紐西蘭這些國家在進行談判即便沒有簽這個保密協議的文件我們的談判也都是全程保密更何況我們現在跟美國的談判是有一個白紙黑字的保密協議存在的所以我認為這個也是重要的事情就是說我們對於保密協議的一個出世他當然不一定說因為保密協議是重要的在談判的過程當中我們需要用這樣的東西來保障也不讓別人知道我們的底線然後說真的其實對方也是動態的兩邊都會有自己的底牌"},{"start":7566.306,"end":7588.182,"text":"但第二個很重要的事情就是其實在立法院他本來還是可以針對這個事情做監督所以我們監督的方式就是在上禮拜去做出示然後我們有這一個所謂的秘密會議這個立法院的委員他本來也就可以要求機密的資料不管是在一個房間過去看這個機密的資料又或者說在秘密會議裡面然後透過秘密質詢的方式所以我在去年一整年我應該也是在這邊很常秘密質詢的這個人"},{"start":7590.203,"end":7609.613,"text":"所以它的確還是有受到國會監督這個監督這件事情它還有後續那就是等到我們今天最終的這一個結果出來了以後它應該還會有按照法律相關的文件要送到院內我覺得這應該是一個很正常的程序但是這邊我現在有稍微比較應該是一個比較敏感的問題就是說"},{"start":7611.354,"end":7626.127,"text":"因為華郵他自己有說他引述獨家取得的貿易談判的文件他指的不是保密協定本身他講的是過程當中的這一個貿易談判文件裡面有提到一件事情就是台灣增加軍費或什麼等等之類的"},{"start":7626.807,"end":7645.112,"text":"我們這邊是國防外交委員會我們當然對這個注重但我裡面呢比較關心的反而是最上面那一個就是他試圖向亞洲中東及非洲國家要求戰略檔口電信及監控網路的一個去中華也就是說呢我們可以看到現在中國談判的這個結果當然它的這個疊加關稅是高的那"},{"start":7645.552,"end":7656.864,"text":"美國想要去做對於中國相關的這個圍堵的這個態勢其實在這個過程當中在外交上面是明顯的但我現在擔心的事情就是什麼呢就是這一個是我在這一個"},{"start":7659.023,"end":7684.006,"text":"3月18號 今年的3月18號的總質詢那時候在問卓榮泰院長的一個內容我裡面有提到非常多就是比如說今天新加坡破貨了幫中國買輝達晶片的白手套還有台灣之前有沒有購買高階晶片的這個轉手帝的問題還有之前華為那時候有問過經濟部就是他有沒有在戰略高科技的貨品出口實體管理名單本來沒有 但後來加上去了"},{"start":7684.426,"end":7712.749,"text":"也就是說呢 這一些事項當時我提出了國安法第3條跟兩岸條例第9條那當時在3月的時候呢我有建議院長就是說是不是能夠趕快把院版能夠趕快提出來因為有院版這件事情讓我們修法我們才可以知道比較細緻的方向在哪裡那裡面也包含了就是這個所謂的貿易法第13條跟兩岸條例第35條那我在3月提出這件事情最主要的原因就是因為經濟安全現在變成是一個很重要的議題"},{"start":7713.61,"end":7738.858,"text":"那我相信在談判的過程當中對方最懼怕的一定就是台灣到底有沒有稀產地台灣有沒有今天技術的洩漏有沒有晶片相關的核心關鍵技術被拿走這是對方非常關心的問題那如果說我們今天不要說因為立法院的狀況其實現在國際可能知道但院裡面有沒有針對這些提出了一些相關的修法這至少是能夠被拿出來的嘛"},{"start":7739.258,"end":7763.285,"text":"所以這是那時候我三月很關心的問題那我知道有些不是修法它有時候是比如說可能是經濟部自己內部規則的訂定那這個在談判的過程當中一定會有利那我現在要講的事情就是因為現在已經談到談到一半或是談到三分之二了接下來我們還有一點時間這一個時間希望能夠回去再建議尤其在不管是經濟部這一邊或者在陸委會今天沒有陸委會"},{"start":7764.105,"end":7786.8,"text":"就是針對我們的兩岸條例針對我們的國安法貿易法這些相關的規定它有一些細節可以先拿出來告訴對方講說我們有觀察到什麼樣的案例我們做了什麼樣的防堵我認為這個在談判應該會是一個有利的是拜託能夠再跟院內來做這樣的一個溝通那我應該知道我時間已經到了所以還有一些小問題沒有辦法詢問我就下一次再詢問謝謝"},{"start":7787.901,"end":7802.994,"text":"好 謝謝委員那簡單補充我們實際上我們嚴格控管息產地違規轉移這件事情我們的政府已經都已經在強化執行謝謝感謝 謝謝主席謝謝沈伯陽總召的資訊接下來由馬文金委員上台資訊"},{"start":7817.28,"end":7823.563,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請外交部陳次長還有我們經貿辦的副總談判代表謝謝"},{"start":7838.339,"end":7856.414,"text":"委員好大家早我想請教一下因為我們今天特別關注的其實還是在台美關稅談判持續在進行的這個部分當中我們到底卡關是在哪裡因為其實有所有的委員大概也都提到大家關心的是我們現在這個是暫時性的20%還有疊加的部分"},{"start":7864.241,"end":7867.364,"text":"另外我們在可能已經把很多的籌碼我們都已經把它公佈出去甚至已經送出去了比如說像台積電台積電的投資額度等等然後還有我們現在的投資金額雖然我們還"},{"start":7879.474,"end":7892.085,"text":"不是很明確的政府也沒有告訴我們投資金的到底是多少可是我們這個也是有一些露出那另外還有包括天然氣因為外交部還興高采烈的在日韓他們都還沒有提到這個部分的時候我們已經去做了投資然後還有軍售的部分那像這些都已經在"},{"start":7903.414,"end":7911.095,"text":"很重要的籌碼我們都已經在很早的時候我們都已經把它送出去那現在比較大的問題到底是什麼"},{"start":7912.905,"end":7935.417,"text":"跟委員報告我想對於台美談判現在應該沒有所謂卡關的問題因為我們在前一次在7月底的時候赴美做實體諮商之後那即便是在7月31號美國公布了20%的這個暫時性關稅之後我們上週仍然持續跟美國有在進行線上的會議那所以我們持續積極跟美國在進行協商"},{"start":7940.18,"end":7963.91,"text":"那也跟委員報告的就是目前我們還沒有完全取得台美最後的這個共識最主要的原因也就是我們希望可以爭取把232的這個調查內容特別是對於半導體這一個調查可以納入對等關稅的這個談判一併去處理那這樣可以處理我們的供應鏈合作"},{"start":7964.349,"end":7980.487,"text":"也可以比較大幅的實質的去解決可能在台美貿易逆差的問題雖然我們現在剛剛副總談判代表有提到這個部分說我們供應鏈的這個部分其實我想這個先前應該也有初步"},{"start":7981.607,"end":7988.772,"text":"討論過了因為我們不管在可能無人機或者其他的一些相關的這些產品我們要怎麼樣合作大概也都提到所以我想就這個部分反正我們現在還在進行當中我們就來討論幾個議題順便就叫我們次長還有我們副總談判代表我們先來談談保密的部分好了行政部門一直堅稱說國際慣例要加上台美簽有保密協定所以"},{"start":8011.307,"end":8033.519,"text":"即使我們所有的產業還有全體國人都還有包括我們整個立法委員都被完全保密的情況之下什麼都不知道那我想要請教的是政府院長辦公室的人他一定有幫忙處理台美談判然後也有跟著去華府談判知道的可能都比我們所有的立法委員多是不是有沒有"},{"start":8039.024,"end":8061.554,"text":"政府院長談判辦公室有沒有人一起去參與這樣子的談判或者協助所有的行政事務有沒有跟委員報告我想我們的談判團隊就是由談判小組來決定我現在說的是政府院長辦公室的人他有幫忙處理嘛你在處理的過程當中所有的文件資料所有相關的談判內容他們是不是也知道"},{"start":8063.183,"end":8080.875,"text":"我想我們的談判基本上按照保密協議就是由授權的人員他可以去接觸到文件那我覺得副院長辦公室的人員如果有經過授權那這個是由副院長他有經過授權那我們就來請教一下他們有沒有經過特殊的安全查核有沒有有沒有說有沒有就好不好意思有沒有就好"},{"start":8091.606,"end":8094.707,"text":"這個部分可能要會後我請我們的長官再跟您做進一步的我們在開會我們在監督我們在審查過去不管是哪一樣的協定其實都有提到這個部分還包括開機密會議連巡打都是用機密的這已經是沒有辦法監督剛剛還說可以監督這完全沒有辦法第一個我要請問的他有沒有經過特殊的安全查核第二個他們有沒有依照國家機密保護法"},{"start":8120.993,"end":8140.285,"text":"申請出境這應該都沒有在保密的協定所規範的內容這個部分相關的證明在會後提供給本席好不好那第二個我再請教一下美國媒體報導川普利用我們貿易協定要求各國增加國防預算"},{"start":8141.386,"end":8158.496,"text":"基本上我們所有的委員也都支持軍人待遇條例加薪國軍志願役的這個部分我們也希望透過這樣子的加薪性更多優秀的人才投入國防不過鄭麗君副院長在記者會上說已經向美方表達總統賴清德他宣示國防預算要達到超過GDP3%以上的目標那因此在談判中沒有進一步討論"},{"start":8171.454,"end":8182.041,"text":"是嗎這是政府院長在記者會上面所說明的他說的所以那這就是表示媒體美國的媒體報導是不正確的囉因為美國的媒體報導說川普會利用貿易協定要求各國增加國防預算可是我們的副院長他說在談判的內容裡面並沒有這一項"},{"start":8193.715,"end":8196.337,"text":"這個部分表示未來我們跟美國簽約的時候不管是像印尼一樣的先簽一個共同聲明或是簽一個更完整的協定他都不會有關於我們國防預算應該是多少的條款是這樣嗎"},{"start":8212.24,"end":8230.019,"text":"就如同政府院長說的我們在會議上面已經重申了我們的總統重申我們接下來的這個國防預算會提高到GDP 3%所以這就是台灣的既定政策方向對 所以我們的條款裡面就不會再寫上這一條嘛 對不對"},{"start":8231.861,"end":8236.765,"text":"我想這個我們現在談判都在進行當中沒有因為你總是有一個標準啦因為你說你已經沒有在裡面談判了那你沒有談判你就不會寫在上面你已經告訴他會在GDP3%以上了你只是這樣講那已經沒有在談判的內容裡面了我們不知道多少你也許說5%或多少不知道那你現在如果按照政府院長的說法那就是不會寫在我們的不管是聲明也好協定也好"},{"start":8262.213,"end":8266.236,"text":"外交部回答一下好不好因為這個有條約締結法你們是主管機關在這裡請教一個問題剛剛經貿辦提到的這個部分你說還在進行當中可是副院長說這個不會在談判的內容裡面那不會在談判的內容裡面就不會寫在這個條款裡面萬一未來在這個條款裡面他們已經有他寫上這個金額或者他的經費數字的話怎麼辦"},{"start":8292.162,"end":8295.185,"text":"報告委員 具體的談判還是由談判團隊來負責對於具體內容沒有 因為你們說沒有副院長他是主談的一個代表他說在我們談判的過程當中沒有這一項在這裡我們看到行政團隊跟談判代表已經逾越權責"},{"start":8315.785,"end":8323.211,"text":"他說預算多少其實這個不是行政團隊或誰說了算所有預算還是必須經過立法院的啊所以你在談判的時候你說沒有談可是萬一你寫下去那這個整個協定它會不會生效如果不被同意的時候這個協定或者這個條款會不會生效"},{"start":8338.666,"end":8358.864,"text":"報告委員那兩件事第一個是說其實以副院長說的為準因為那個我們外交部並沒有參與到實際的這個談判第一線的工作第二那麼相關的這個談判的一個結果那麼牽涉到這個預算的這個審查這一定是這個遵循這個相關的規定嘛這個預算本來就是要透過"},{"start":8359.525,"end":8363.786,"text":"立法院來決定或是談判的這個最終的一個結果按照他的性質剛剛你提到這個必須要預算要經過立法院嘛那談判的過程當中以正副院長他所說的為主那他就是說在這個談判裡面我們的國防預算並沒有納在這裡面談判所以萬一他有在裡面出現的時候他就是沒有不生效的"},{"start":8387.948,"end":8393.691,"text":"那個生不生效我想還是要由立法院來做審議因為你總是只有一個方向嘛副院長就說沒有談判那你沒談判你還把它寫在裡面是人家說了算嗎是美國說了算嗎我說你3%就3%我說你3.5%就3.5%我說你1兆5你就1兆5嗎你既然沒有談判你就不會寫在這裡面如果他寫在這裡面那這條款會不會生效嘛你是主管機關會不會生效"},{"start":8415.922,"end":8420.508,"text":"那我們把會把所有的這個談判的結果送到這個我們沒有要等結果我們現在談的是這一個部分這個部分在盡快的時間會後你也把我們剛剛詢問的問題把這個狀況可以提供給本席好不好"},{"start":8431.363,"end":8435.846,"text":"因為時間的關係我再借用一點時間鄭麗君副院長在記者會上說了很多非關稅貿易障礙美豬美牛都是必考題這個大家都知道所以因為這些都是美國公開的報告所以這個騙不了人可是鄭副院長並沒有講到說他降稅的部分我們雖然犧牲了美豬美牛可是他沒有降稅那美國到底跟我們要求多少項產品的降稅"},{"start":8458.041,"end":8462.026,"text":"我想請教副總談判代表比如說雞肉有沒有降水"},{"start":8463.732,"end":8486.586,"text":"跟委員報告我想所有的議題都是在這個動態發展當中所以很確定的有沒有談到肌肉有沒有降稅因為肌肉對我們台灣所有的養雞的產業非常非常重要我們尤其我們台灣人還有包括我們很多的食品其實他跟肌肉其實相關有沒有談到肌肉告訴我們有沒有談到肌肉就好我想美國有沒有要求"},{"start":8490.688,"end":8493.671,"text":"各位委員報告我想所有的議題都在動態發展當中如果只是這樣來交代你到現在對人民都不敢說雞肉我剛剛說他對我們所有的人民至關重大他所有的產業的傷害也非常重大如果你們沒有要用這樣子說還在動態的發展連這個都不敢說會引起更大的反彈而且"},{"start":8513.146,"end":8517.41,"text":"大家對於這樣的黑箱的談判會更不能接受這個部分我想你們再考慮一下有些部分必須要人民做更好的因應跟準備這不是雞你養了就馬上可以大家投資很多的成本大家做了很多的付出你應該讓他們可以有因應跟準備的一個時間這個部分我想也沒有什麼美國如果要求我們就是要應對我們就是要談嘛"},{"start":8540.149,"end":8547.317,"text":"那你要談到什麼樣的結果那是另外一回事可是到底肌肉有沒有在這個降稅的這個部分裡面應該要提早讓人民知道不然你受到的反彈會非常大尤其對我們現在的執政黨最後一個問題我再請教一下中金院長連名顯說韓國花了3500億美元投資美國都沒有換到這個條款"},{"start":8561.812,"end":8570.398,"text":"所謂的這個條款就是像韓國跟美國它本來就有自由貿易協定所以工具機它輸美是零關稅對不對韓國它的貿易協定它輸美工具機的部分它是零關稅嘛"},{"start":8579.33,"end":8583.212,"text":"所以就只有15%要確認基本上應該是零關稅對 那韓國很清楚的知道他的最大的競爭對手就是台灣而且工具機也是台灣非常一個非常重要非常優質的產業也非常具有競爭力可是如果是這樣的狀況而且我們的經貿辦還自先底牌說要比日韓低之前我們說要比日韓低所以你這個就已經是給川普以韓治台"},{"start":8608.61,"end":8611.734,"text":"或者以台制韓這樣的機會不是嗎因為我們把底牌通先了我們一開始台積電買天然氣然後軍售款然後我們要多少的一個採購的金額然後我們要做什麼樣的付出都已經都先跟人家講了而且你都已經談了"},{"start":8626.372,"end":8632.876,"text":"結果你到最後我們自己連談的籌碼都沒有我們還叫我們說還好好的睡一覺結果一覺醒來都不是這個樣子到現在還在暫時性的談判還在滾動性的可是我剛剛提到的這個以韓治台或者以台治韓的這樣的機會這個難怪韓國一談定台灣就變成暫時性的了因為他可以再對我們予取予求了"},{"start":8650.606,"end":8655.167,"text":"今天如果韓國他15%他還不用疊加那我們還可以跟他競爭什麼所以行政部門花人民的納稅錢請中金院 台金院做衝擊影響的評估就是幫政府來罵人民笨然後自己沒有看清楚的是這樣嗎我要要求行政院到底花多少錢請中金院做這個評估這個資訊也請會後提供給本席好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":8681.536,"end":8684.823,"text":"謝謝馬文君委員的質詢那接下來我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":9085.646,"end":9090.869,"text":"現在開始開會我們接下來由我們賴世保委員上台質詢謝謝主席 請各位先進有請外交部的陳次長經濟部的江次長然後總談判代表的原副總談判的代表好"},{"start":9114.724,"end":9132.988,"text":"好 三位長官首先第一個先請教我們這次跟美國談關稅那個對口單位是哪個單位 外交部知道嗎這個主要還是由我們談判團隊好 那就請外交部的長官可以先請回沒關係 來 講一下美國對口單位是誰我們主要對口是USTR然後有議題相關的商務部也會參加是什麼商務部"},{"start":9141.505,"end":9153.553,"text":"商務部對象是誰我們出面是行政院的副院長講這個級別要稍微講一下對口你要講一下他們長官是誰"},{"start":9154.693,"end":9179.615,"text":"可以講嗎 這機密嗎 這機密第一個 對 就是要跟委員報告的這個有機密喔 要想完了我們出去是真的 誰叫我們的行政院副院長出兵他對國是誰 張三理事 王武都不知道這還機密跟委員報告 我剛才在講的是說我們實際上在做談判的時候當然不會是他們的USTR或者商務部的最高長官出來談"},{"start":9180.556,"end":9188.078,"text":"那所以他的組成就像我們談判團隊的組成都會施議題去做調整他你的最高層級到哪裡啦我問你這個啦到哪裡我們副院長說領軍談判團隊應該是有這個見到USTR的Greer大使GreerGreer見到嗎以及商務部長Lanik商務部長有嗎Lanik部長盧特什麼特的盧特尼克盧特尼克有見到嗎"},{"start":9210.602,"end":9228.258,"text":"有嗎 有跟他談嗎我們所被告知的是 確實他們有見到做進一步的比較高層性的討論你今天來這裡是國會喔 你要講真話喔你能講就講喔 你不知道就不知道我聽了感覺你不知道欸 你是副總代表不是嗎你有沒有進去談 我請教你你有沒有進去談 You You Y O U"},{"start":9239.602,"end":9254.55,"text":"你有沒有進去談 你跟委員報告 我們的談判就是你有沒有進去談 我問你你有沒有進去談在議題有需要的 我就按照長官安排參加這樣就是你沒機會啊你沒機會你代表總統辦事來接不是很奇怪嗎原總代表 原副總代表你都不知道五四三你都不知道 你要來接你現在要去北巡啦"},{"start":9269.028,"end":9295.047,"text":"你都不知道 你也是看不出來你說拜託 怎麼會這個樣子呢你們在揚州 你為什麼不來啊請教召委啊這好像是政府上面的體制的規定是必須要由我們辦公室是由副總談判代表來受到國會的監督總代表不用受國會監督喔沒有 他當然代表我們整個OTN受到國會的監督但是來這邊質詢跟備詢"},{"start":9298.07,"end":9308.562,"text":"是副總談判代表這個我想是不是是我們政府的體制上面的一些體制沒有這樣體制喔沒有這樣體制是我們的召委太客氣喔對不對哪裡有說楊正琳不來的我當召委我就請她來她不來請假不准"},{"start":9318.553,"end":9325.857,"text":"我們都會配合委員的指示我們跟美國買的軍售美國對我們的軍售有沒有算在貿易額裡面有沒有我們的軍售的貿易額算不算貿易額裡面"},{"start":9345.97,"end":9369.806,"text":"我想台美的計算方式都有不同的方式你這個等於沒有回答你告訴我來來來外交部市長有沒有算來講清楚這個很重要喔我們現在買的武器越來越多這個算不算貿易 算不算報告委員如果是經過軍售管道 MFS那麼是不算在我們的貿易的所以軍售好 那就問你軍售多少錢"},{"start":9370.68,"end":9384.849,"text":"有多少這樣子管道多少一個是軍售一個商售嘛對不對商售就有嘛是不是商售有商售有軍售沒有那你告訴我們這個比例幾比幾這個可能我還在詢問一下國防部門大概多少2比1"},{"start":9388.38,"end":9410.61,"text":"我們手上沒有立即的數字我們融合我們之後再來提供我們現在國防部今天是國防部沒有來所以講很清楚了軍售不算商售要算那一般來講其實我們都知道商售的多 軍售的少還是倒過來"},{"start":9411.83,"end":9434.421,"text":"我的了解是說我們是直接的軍售大於商售我們軍售是因為是美國國防部幫我們拔對好等於對口是美國的國防部所以是說他不會算在直接的貿易戰上面但是我知道我的了解是說我們透過各種的管道"},{"start":9435.041,"end":9461.99,"text":"也跟這個美方的 counterpart說清楚是說我們對於美國的這個軍事採購相當大的數額尤其是這幾年那麼因為貴院所通過的相關的預算我們有相當明顯的這個金額請他們也把這個東西能夠一併的在整個對我的這個相關的經濟關係上面一併的考慮進來這個你能不能去跟美國那邊提出要求啦那個副總代表"},{"start":9463.723,"end":9489.998,"text":"不管軍售 商售 都要列入貿易額啦否則對台灣不公平啦這就道地的上前入國的一個條文啦那你為什麼 我給美國買東西不然算在我們的貿易額裡面一直叫我們買 我們都通常一直買 一直買單結果這一部分來講的話 最少是大於軍售大於商售啊大部分的錢都 你都不扛了在裡面副總代表 你知道嗎"},{"start":9491.393,"end":9494.874,"text":"跟委員報告我們想我們台美的談判我們的台美的談判基本上比較沒有去觸及這一塊我們就是談在這個貿易議題上面這一塊也很重要怎麼不觸及他今天的一個對等規則就從這裡來的啊從貿易的逆差裡面推算回來的所以要掐起32%這到底在這裡啊對不對就是他的逆差除以除以他的一個進口額啊大家都很清楚啊我們"},{"start":9520.72,"end":9524.261,"text":"這個對美國來講的出口是1100多億啊是 對吧 從這裡來的啊然後順差700多 除以它 除以二就是這樣來啊來 我們看20%現在變成一個地盤價怎麼樣可以變成天花盤價就是不要疊加了簡單來講 不要疊加所以兩個重點 第一個我如果爭取不要疊加第二個 20%能不能再往下降這是一個重中之重"},{"start":9549.909,"end":9571.128,"text":"好 我們這個就是我們現在正在爭取努力的空間怎麼樣可以達到嘛 你告訴我們這個不是機密吧這個也是機密所有的談判的內容當然到目前都還是保密的狀態因為還沒有到最後底定的之前可能都會有變動來 那個經濟部的次長來 江次長你是國貿專家你在國貿署很久了"},{"start":9577.085,"end":9595.886,"text":"我們你們部長講的說說溜了嘴但是檔案都留下來他說大家要付出代價是什麼啊我們增加投資4千億好不好啊這是你們郭部長講的4千億美金請問有沒有在跟業者談這個事情有沒有 市長"},{"start":9598.619,"end":9621.794,"text":"報告委員這是郭部長他以舉例的方式來說明因為他有看到韓國跟日本在對外公布的這個協商投資的金額所以郭部長在參加與業者的座談會的當中有提到這個4千億的一個舉例這不是舉例啦這已經快要是生命組織所患了這個東西啊為什麼講上旬入國就在這裡"},{"start":9626.679,"end":9648.977,"text":"日本的GDP4點多兆美金我們的GDP0.8兆他大概是我們的五六倍所以他投資5500億換的一個說地盤價變成天馬盤價我們按照日本的GDP來的話投資一千億都夠了一千億美金綽綽有餘啦如果沒有把台積電算進來的話那就已經達到了"},{"start":9649.938,"end":9669.896,"text":"已經達到了 這樣很好算就這個來講 副總代表你聽一下雖然你也沒有進到裡面去我今天才知道你根本就沒有進到裡面去然後不僅僅這樣子我們要爭取關稅20%往下降副總代表 來來來 副總代表這兩個重點可以嗎這個就是談判小組在努力的 沒錯"},{"start":9681.632,"end":9705.043,"text":"我講完就結束了其實我們都知道還有一大塊很重要的國內大家大概都只注意到說我去美國的美國現在這是鄭麗君副院長說的美國一直丟出來新的東西其中很重要的要台灣開放市場特別是農業 汽車業這一部分你能不能跟美國談"},{"start":9706.485,"end":9723.081,"text":"比如說汽車的 我用貨物稅來取代關稅的條件貨物稅 基本上來講的話財政部是不再去注意的用貨物稅 這貨物稅也被川普總統認定為非貿易障礙裡面的一環"},{"start":9725.183,"end":9736.185,"text":"各國的貨物稅其實都跌得很高我們的貨物稅很高 不同息息數這個非常高的有20%以上的等等的這一部分是不是裡面也是要列入的談判範圍裡面"},{"start":9738.48,"end":9763.14,"text":"我想我們跟美國談判的東西基本上是按照美國它的主要的需求來提出那對台灣來說貨物稅可能不是一個單純的汽車的問題它可能是一個整體性貨物稅有沒有對於不同的產業有租稅公平以及有沒有按照我們現在的時事去需求去科證這個貨物稅所以我想這個會是政府在做整體性貨物稅檢視的時候去考量的環節農業 農業要進一步開放嗎"},{"start":9767.084,"end":9787.283,"text":"農產品會進一步開放嗎這個你不能講謝謝委員你不能講 那你來被沖煞都不能講來這裡要黑箱到這裡對不對就是美國所有他有提過關稅非關稅的議題都是在我們台美談判的議程上面都不能講"},{"start":9788.769,"end":9810.822,"text":"你都不能講公開不能講我們現在就是按照保密協議的方式盡可能來鄭麗君因為副院長公開已經講了美國跟我們談每一次丟一個新的議題裡面有汽車有這個農業的東西都有他都公開講了你這裡又不能講你是要來衝災我怎麼知道副院長有提到說汽車是屬於美規車是非關稅的議題"},{"start":9814.25,"end":9822.075,"text":"當然是一併考慮的 哪裡有揮棍所以主席跟主席報告我們的副總代表今天來都說 都機密的這個東西 巨石已爆了今天是公開的 所以應該是巨石已爆了"},{"start":9832.974,"end":9856.983,"text":"據實與報啊 你在這裡有這個義務要誠實講要你知道的誠實講 除非你都不知道你是說你都不知道 因為你沒有進去那個房間裡面談對吧 你沒有進去房間裡面談各位委員報告 我們剛剛有提到是按照議題的分工 由談判的小組來決定參與你們 我最後一個細節問我就下去了你們總共跟美國談了幾次了"},{"start":9859.053,"end":9869.062,"text":"我們實體的面對面談判有進行四次幾次啊 四次是吧四次的實體面對面的談判四次實體面對面 你參加了幾次你參加了幾次 請問你我們就是你參加幾次啦 嚴副總代表你參加幾次 你告訴我"},{"start":9879.771,"end":9900.976,"text":"我想我們整個談判的團隊就是是需要我們來支援談判小組你還是沒辦法回答我這個讓我就高度質疑你根本就是狀況外你只是拿來當炮灰而已來立法院當炮灰你根本you know nothing你根本什麼都不知道你自己也不知道"},{"start":9902.903,"end":9925.647,"text":"這樣子對不對這個瞧不起立法院了找一個不知道的人來備詢怎麼會這樣子呢那你要跟我回答啊回答這問題你一直不回答我就沒辦法下來啊四次面對面Face to face的meeting裡面你參加幾次你回答我對這個問題回答我參加幾次一次不要多一點兩次"},{"start":9931.114,"end":9933.176,"text":"謝謝萊斯堡委員的質詢 接下來由林倩琦上台質詢"},{"start":9965.077,"end":9969.004,"text":"好 謝謝邵委我想我先請我們經貿談判辦事處的副總代表"},{"start":9976.136,"end":10003.383,"text":"好 嚴副總代表我其實今天在看名單然後在想說到底要問誰我目前看起來就覺得好像就我看到的相關的資訊有一些關鍵人物沒有看到所以我本來很期待您這邊能夠跟我們做個回應結果剛才在賴委員在問的時候我們發現好像如果以您這樣子先前"},{"start":10005.583,"end":10029.719,"text":"這段時間的這樣子的談判我也不知道是不是能夠從您這邊了解相關的事物因為本席以前在念書的時候也對於政府的談判很有興趣所以在某一些包括WTO的談判本席也是美方的志工也算我們國家的志工"},{"start":10030.441,"end":10045.019,"text":"那大概對於談判的那個有一點概念啦所以我今天一看名單說好像我所知道的資訊這個名單上我不知道可以找誰那所以既然就是您來那剛才聽起來也是辛苦的啦"},{"start":10045.94,"end":10061.257,"text":"如果那四次的實體代表如同賴委員講的您有一半以上但是回應上可能還有好多的保密我想今天我只能體面面的談一些目前民眾有的疑慮"},{"start":10063.932,"end":10080.516,"text":"我覺得比較可惜的是從四月份到現在我想大家都包括我都非常的關注這樣子的一個談判的結果但是到了這個關稅開始要生效的時候我們似乎都還在您所講的這種動態的變動當中你們在動態談判那我們就在動態變動"},{"start":10083.917,"end":10089.238,"text":"跟這件事情直接相關的產業我想他們應該都在動態的焦慮所以我這邊跟你們一些建議雖然這個談判保密是一種很重要的策略但是保密的整個界線不是無邊無際不能因為保密然後民意的監督"},{"start":10104.702,"end":10129.572,"text":"似乎就成為一個用保密成為一個藉口那我們看看鄰國日本石破茂從一開始要談的時候他至少有揭示底線他說在食品安全上絕不妥協那麼在國會跟媒體面前他也公開說了他要回應美國的關稅要求那到底什麼東西是底線那負責談判的那個日本官員至少在幾次的談判裡面會"},{"start":10132.313,"end":10151.958,"text":"像社會說明那這個說明其實對於凝聚一些共識然後從民意產生一些跟美國談判的一些壓力那不會讓我們節節敗退我覺得這個策略你們也是可以做個參考因為為什麼你們會現在大家一直說黑箱就是完全都不知道"},{"start":10152.478,"end":10177.64,"text":"那跟這件事情相關的產業大家會擔心那個結果如果離預期的差太多那整體來講要因應可能就會是很大的一個負面的衝擊所以我是這邊建議啦那個我們談判的這個團隊在適時的可能要開放出一些你們主要談的這個內容然後再來是那你每一次的這個底線是什麼"},{"start":10178.18,"end":10205.393,"text":"不會讓大家覺得一頭霧水那不知道你們到底談了什麼項目然後或者是底線會是什麼那大家都怕最後那個結果出來的是大家沒有辦法因應而且還沒有辦法改變的所以這個部分我們不希望你們或許覺得這是一種戰略的沉默但是民眾會覺得是一種責任的逃避所以我現在只能這樣子的對你們做一些建議啦因為我覺得你也辛苦了"},{"start":10207.294,"end":10229.646,"text":"據我所了解的這個談判的細節狀態那您今天來到立法院其實真的談的一些關鍵人物可能要幫他們回應一些問題也是有點困難所以我請你把我講的這個部分帶回去至少要讓大家知道我們絕對會堅持的底線是什麼"},{"start":10230.986,"end":10249.791,"text":"有這樣一個目標我們才會知道至少我們往這個方向去你們談出來的結果到底符合了百分之幾大家的期待所以我想大家都很擔心所以會一直很想了解相關的情形現在我們談到的疊加關稅我想幾個問題就是說從4月到現在如果你們知道疊加關稅這樣子的問題會是一個很大的衝擊我們為什麼到現在還沒有達成"},{"start":10260.134,"end":10277.339,"text":"是不是我們有可能在前面浪力太多那也沒有設定清楚的談判底線跟籌碼因為從四月到現在如果你們現在一直還在動態談判然後還一直在這個不知道到底能不能達成那究竟你們從那個時候到現在是做了些什麼"},{"start":10277.879,"end":10301.828,"text":"那大家非常擔心的農畜產品、食品安全你們究竟會不會在這個底線上還有稻米的關稅你們能夠堅持嗎至少你們是不是要讓大家知道我們談判的代表跟整個台灣我們整個產業的共同目標是什麼我想這是大家很關心的那我想今天你大概也沒有辦法再講嘛你應該會告訴我們說這個保密應該還在動態的談判"},{"start":10304.289,"end":10324.65,"text":"那或許有一些我不知道你參與了多少那能夠參與的這個深度跟您能夠回應的可能還是正面的這個連結所以你要不要就我剛才講的那4月到現在我們究竟碰到了什麼樣關鍵性的困難讓我們現在還一直在動態談判當中"},{"start":10326.719,"end":10351.293,"text":"跟委員報告第一個我想我們做這樣子的一個談判最重要的就是我們會希望把232的議題一併放入對等關稅談判一起處理因為這樣才可以達到美國想要降低貿易逆差的他的目標所以我們也看到有一些國家譬如說像日本或者是像歐盟他們可能在232的議題上面"},{"start":10353.474,"end":10372.568,"text":"是有在至少他們有單方面宣稱或者是說歐盟他是跟美歐的這個所謂的白宮的所謂白宮聲明上面是有去呈現歐盟有取得在232議題上面可以獲得美國的優惠所以我們是希望"},{"start":10373.228,"end":10397.982,"text":"就台灣來說我們也希望可以爭取把這兩個議題一起處理那這個是現在主要的重點也是您剛才提到從4月以來我們除了努力去把現在原本我們在4月2號被宣布是32%的對等關稅降到20%以外現在這一個階段在努力的目標就是把232跟對等關稅以及供應鏈合作的議題可以一併處理"},{"start":10400.205,"end":10412.375,"text":"好的 謝謝那這樣有設定一些底線嗎就是你們看到歐盟或是看到其他國家得到這樣子的一個回應的時候那你們有設定我們的以我們的條件底線可能在哪裡嗎"},{"start":10414.68,"end":10434.134,"text":"我想我們因為美國他所提出來的需求以及每個國家跟美國的產業經貿利益不同所以我想我們沒有辦法先設體限但是就是盡可能去爭取以台灣來說我們當然希望盡可能爭取半導體在232的調查上面有機會獲得優惠的待遇"},{"start":10435.27,"end":10451.121,"text":"好 謝謝那至少現階段我們會知道你們可能有幾個重點在處理那我覺得團隊可能可以適時的主動放這樣子的消息然後讓對社會各界做一個溝通嘛所以大家才不會有這樣子黑箱的一個懷疑好不好"},{"start":10451.661,"end":10476.673,"text":"是 所以正副院長還會在這個禮拜一去開記者會那接下來我們也會適時的按照動態的發展來跟國人跟國會進行報告好的 這種動態發展我們還是希望在回應的時候有一些比較具體的數據或者是具體的內容好嗎好 謝謝那我知道時間差不多了我最後只一分鐘提醒一下您請回那個外交部那我們外交部是市長來嗎 是嗎"},{"start":10479.674,"end":10492.819,"text":"外交部 外交部的代表我這邊就一個提醒因為最近國際間的一個狀況就是以色列跟巴勒斯坦的這個問題那我覺得這個以色列從一開始本來是巴勒斯坦去打了他們"},{"start":10494.921,"end":10511.702,"text":"這個狀態結果搞到現在整個的這個國際氛圍會變成這樣也很特別那我這邊要提醒一下是現在各國都認為以色列在這整個戰爭當中對於巴勒斯坦是有一種滅族跟就是有點太超過了那甚至"},{"start":10513.163,"end":10528.859,"text":"聯合國也覺得巴勒斯坦可能會面臨一些種族的滅絕國際刑事法庭在去年11月更以戰爭罪跟危害人類罪對以色列總理跟前國防部長已經發出了逮捕令"},{"start":10530.581,"end":10558.599,"text":"但是我們的外交部在這個時候卻表示跟以色列在研議對屯墾區的醫療捐助雖然後來你們還有一些改口的因應但是本席這邊要提醒對於加薩地區持續的人道危機跟種族滅絕的指控我們整個政府的態度是如何你們又對我們的外交部對於聯合國的專家還有國際刑事法庭的判定是什麼樣子的看法"},{"start":10559.451,"end":10573.923,"text":"第一個我想要說明的是說我們並不認為這個是有一個種族滅絕的問題第二個是說你覺得刑事法庭這邊講的有點太過嗎國際刑事法庭有他的認定的方式但是就我們的立場來說我並不認為這是一個所謂的種族滅絕"},{"start":10577.826,"end":10583.232,"text":"那那個種族滅絕發生在人道上還是很多人有一些意見跟想法嗎第二個是說我們跟以色列本來在2006年就有依偎合作的一個協定那麼這次我們的代表是應這個以色列議員之約那去看"},{"start":10595.803,"end":10615.593,"text":"那就是在這樣就僅止於此而已並沒有再進一步同時我要再跟委員報告的我們對於這個相關的人道團體支持這個巴勒斯坦人的這個人道團體那麼也能夠提供一些相關的一些協助我們也做相應的一個捐款所以外交部的一個立場是在對於這樣一個問題上面"},{"start":10616.909,"end":10645.371,"text":"我們絕對是人道為先的一個關懷好的 我這邊就是做一個提醒以現在整個國際間看待這件事情的一個角度那我們可能在這中間的拿捏必須要考慮到您剛才如果說已經有考慮到人道的問題再來就是在國際間的一個看法那我們可能要有一些立場的這個準備跟處理 好嗎好 謝謝謝謝林倩琪委員的質詢接下來由黃國昌委員上台質詢"},{"start":10658.694,"end":10686.392,"text":"謝謝主席 邀請外交部部長請假是不是OK 好 那就請市長然後經貿談判辦公室委員好市長全立國人都非常支持我們的政府對外拚外交"},{"start":10688.218,"end":10716.159,"text":"拚到現在這個樣子我發現賴清德政府非常的會做大內宣但是在國際媒體上面最近這段時間是一而再再而三非常不好的消息賴清德是我們的總統我們支持他 反對他他都是中華民國對外的代表"},{"start":10717.965,"end":10741.923,"text":"當他受到日本獨賣新聞這麼延遲的批評的時候大家擔心的是台日的關係林全忠我相信他在台灣小有名氣東大非常有名的教授他直接講什麼"},{"start":10744,"end":10769.052,"text":"直接講說為什麼獨賣新聞痛批大罷免是要排除在野勢力激進指其為獨裁打壓這不是國內的在野黨批評這已經上了日本獨賣新聞的社論林全中老師也做這樣的批評在國內"},{"start":10770.834,"end":10799.543,"text":"我們對於執政黨不負責任去搞大罷免去搞獨裁我們非常的憤怒但問題是現在連丟到國際社會上丟到國際社會上對台灣自由民主的形象造成很大的傷害不是只有獨賣這樣講日本偏左偏右大的媒體全部都這樣說"},{"start":10802.225,"end":10825.833,"text":"對我國民主的形象造成重挫這不是你的責任這是賴清德的責任這是賴清德的責任這是賴清德的責任我持續身為在野黨的黨主席我持續等著我們執政黨的主席要怎麼處理這個問題但跟外交部有關係的就是下面這件事"},{"start":10827.745,"end":10855.537,"text":"我們的行政官員是覺得台灣的外交處境一片順遂嗎我們的行政官員是覺得台灣外交處境一片順遂嗎跟人家約會結果約了前一天晚上突然不去放人家鴿子人家公開發文痛批直接痛批"},{"start":10856.724,"end":10879.522,"text":"碰踢完了以後來看看我們行政院官員是什麼嘴臉 什麼態度啊他的態度是說 我那一天之前已經有信件表達歉意了啦然後幾天後他對社群媒體做出截然不同的反應他感到詫異啊外交部認同林明星這樣的態度嗎"},{"start":10882.187,"end":10906.624,"text":"我想委員說得很好我們在外交的處境上他們充滿了這個挑戰所以在很多的問題處理上面會非常的一個小心你覺得林明星有處理得很小心嗎我覺得是說就這個林政委我們第一線外交的同仁辛苦的打拼結果從台灣出訪的大使從台灣出訪的政委在放火在放火"},{"start":10911.775,"end":10919.6,"text":"很大嗎在台灣耍官威耍習慣了耍到韓國去丟台灣人的臉外交部的同仁這麼辛苦在第一線打拼在台北的大官跑去韓國放火外交部覺得林明星這樣子的態度是對的嗎"},{"start":10938.547,"end":10958.603,"text":"我們盡力的說明啦但是那天的確是發生了這個因為林明星委員林明星政委必須在這個APEC他主要去韓國是因為APEC這個會議我知道啊但我覺得很訝異啊自己出國什麼時候要幹什麼事情自己不知道自己出國什麼時候要幹什麼事情自己不知道"},{"start":10966.886,"end":10969.007,"text":"臨時更改行程這符合外交部我們在一般出訪作業上面應該有的太樣嗎那我就要檢討啦之前出訪行程在排的時候事前的作業是太輕忽了 太草率了他是以為自己去韓國去觀光旅遊喔"},{"start":10998.959,"end":11020.143,"text":"哇 政委應該沒有這樣的一個意圖喔我在跟委員解釋人家都已經公開發文批判了結果他在臉書上 他在講什麼發新聞稿是跟人家對嗆欸你們不是說沒關係了哇 現在又在臉書上面罵我我感到詫異你覺得是我們在做外交的時候應該有的態度嗎應該有這種態度嗎"},{"start":11024.808,"end":11049.99,"text":"這所有的這個相關的牽涉到外交活動的人員那我們都會外交部本於職責都會做一個相關的這個提醒所以你們有提醒林明欣是不是對於這個事情的話我們對不起喔請你回答問題我不是聽你來演講的剛剛你說對於所有從事外交的同仁你們都會去提醒嗎所以外交部有沒有提醒林明欣"},{"start":11051.792,"end":11078.678,"text":"有提醒李明欣嗎我們還是尊重這個政委他的對於這個東西的你們尊重他是他有尊重台灣人民嗎我想這個他把台灣人的臉丟到國際社會上去啦我想這個對於個案我們有盡力去做溝通啦對嘛 這個就是我下一頁要跟你講的嘛我們的職業外交官 邱高偉大使幫民進黨傲慢無禮的政客出去插屁股"},{"start":11081.049,"end":11082.23,"text":"大使很辛苦 我知道柔子不是他捅的他去盜竊去插屁股結果那個韓國的委員長後來講後來講什麼來 我帶次長看國際關係就是這樣"},{"start":11104.69,"end":11131.47,"text":"不只是國與國的事私人之間也是如此履行約定是理所當然的事做錯了事不論對象是誰都應該盡快道歉才是正常如果不道歉反而持續反覆的重蹈錯誤還用藉口或謊言來合理化那無論公司都會導致個人人格遭受否定與崩壞"},{"start":11133.188,"end":11155.977,"text":"接受了道歉還做了這樣的發言從外交關係上面來講次長你覺得嚴不嚴重我們盡力的維持我們台韓之間的良好的友誼那我們也看到說其實台灣跟韓國之間的關係最近有一些好的正向的一個發展那我們在外交部裡面所有的同仁都會珍惜"},{"start":11156.85,"end":11182.621,"text":"這樣得來不易的這樣一個外交的關係所以在每一件的事情的處理上面我們都會盡120分的努力讓他能夠外交部的同仁啊很辛苦我都知道正是因為我知道外交部的同仁很辛苦謝謝委員所以我今天才會提這個質詢啊台灣傲慢無禮的政客跑去韓國殺野我們的職業外交官在幫忙擦屁股"},{"start":11184.321,"end":11211.107,"text":"結果人家接受的道歉是接受看在我們派去那邊代表的份上不關他的事還是他來道歉結果接受了我們那邊大使的道歉以後人家寫的這段話在講誰你知道嗎任何有嗜讀能力的人都知道不道歉還持續反覆的重蹈錯誤還用藉口或謊言來合理化"},{"start":11214.953,"end":11234.298,"text":"他講的不就是李明欣嗎另外一個嚴重的事情韓國的民族日報說前情報司令官緊急戒嚴前來台灣尋求支持我們總統府馬上駁斥無中生有 要求更正 更正了嗎"},{"start":11236.946,"end":11245.489,"text":"那我們會努力讓韓國對於這樣的一個不實消息能夠有比較正確的一個認識來 第一個 我們大使館有沒有表達抗議有去說明啦 那但是說對於這一個不是說明啦 抗議啊 假訊息啊 亂寫啊我們台灣怎麼可能會支持戒嚴"},{"start":11265.18,"end":11276.134,"text":"當初他宣布戒嚴的時候民進黨立法院黨團發的那個是小編的錯誤啊不代表民進黨的立場啊推給小編啊在國內很會啊那問題是人家的"},{"start":11280.492,"end":11297.328,"text":"民族日報寫的這個東西怎麼會去說明軟趴趴的直接抗議假訊息台灣怎麼會挺戒嚴有去抗議嗎我們已經跟韓國的相關媒體有做溝通他們也同意在他們相對應的版面上面"},{"start":11298.178,"end":11305.466,"text":"有嗎有嗎我們請我們的亞太司的司長來做回答報告委員這個第一時間我們就已經把總統府發言人的這個聲明發送到駐韓國大使處民俗日報有更正嗎"},{"start":11315.216,"end":11343.798,"text":"民族日報有答應說要在這個相關的媒體上會再露出民族日報他自己就是媒體啊什麼叫做相關的媒體要露出他說他有承諾說會在媒體上再露出那他已經接到我們的訊息了什麼時候會出來這個我們還會再請住宿這邊再去了解沒關係啊 拜託拜交部密切注意一定民族日報一出更正的消息馬上把他更正的消息"},{"start":11344.952,"end":11372.686,"text":"副本是到我辦公室可以嗎沒問題好接下來我們現在還是台美關係最好的年代嗎這個是林佳龍講的啊來來來看著PPT看著PPT我質詢都是由左本的這不是我說的2024年的時候林佳龍說現在是台美關係最好的年代嗎你們認為現在還是最好的年代嗎我"},{"start":11375.071,"end":11399.537,"text":"我們在外交部的立場是說其實我們一直維持台美關係的平順的運作那麼就現在到目前為止不會啊你們當初的大內宣不是這樣寫的啊你們當初的大內宣寫現在是台美關係最好的年代啊但是這是去年寫的嘛那今年2025年了嘛從2024年到2025年從外交部的立場現在是台美關係最好的年代嗎"},{"start":11401.105,"end":11415.04,"text":"我能夠跟委員報告現在台美關係堅若磐石是嗎 堅若磐石最好的年代因為這些形容詞我從你們外交部官方的報告跟指令我通通都看過了是 委員明察修好"},{"start":11417.948,"end":11434.273,"text":"現在我跟委員報告說台美的關係仍然非常的融洽但是我們的確要思考到一個事情就是說因為川普總統1月20號就任以來那麼他以這個打消美國的這個貿易赤字為首要的一個任務"},{"start":11435.053,"end":11461.285,"text":"雖然上面一定會有一些hard bargain但是我們的了解是說我們客戶個人管道其實在其他的議題上沒有關係啊關稅是一回事牽涉到利益啦我們開始也慢慢理解到了啦有的時候你抽象的談價值人家在意的是價格國際社會的現實大家都了解那但是現在問題是什麼問題是賴清德總統從去年520上任"},{"start":11462.426,"end":11474.097,"text":"出訪有過境過美國本土嗎沒有哪一個總統出訪哪一個總統就任一年多都還沒有過境美國本土的經歷有嗎有嗎過去歷任總統哪一個就任一年多都還竟然有沒有過境美國本土的"},{"start":11487.344,"end":11511.057,"text":"第一年的時候第一年蔡英文就有啦不是嗎馬總統的馬先總統的時代我們還在查一下這個陳前總統的時代我這樣講啦在國內啊討論這些事情心情是很沉重的心情很沉重啦希望你們加油啊有一些啊我們美國的友人這篇文章你應該看過啦是"},{"start":11516.039,"end":11542.464,"text":"當然有一些我們美國的友人覺得他的批評太harsh有一些人的確是這樣認為但是他的確點出了我們在進行外交工作的時候該注意的一些盲點因為我查過這個人的背景他一直支持台灣從過去到現在一直支持台灣當一個一直支持台灣的美國友人提出這麼嚴厲的批評的時候"},{"start":11545.265,"end":11554.378,"text":"我們真的要冷靜的好好想一想過去這段時間到底做錯了哪些事主席站起來了我其實後面還有很多問題"},{"start":11556.274,"end":11580.013,"text":"但是今天部長也不在你次長也難為 我不要為難你我剩的問題等到下一次林佳龍的時候來再請教他好 謝謝請容我一分鐘回答那麼當然這是一個台灣的非常好的一個友人他的一個建議我們把它看成是正有然後我們一定會相關他第二篇文章裡面對於台灣提的很多的這個建議那我只能夠跟委員報告"},{"start":11581.034,"end":11608.262,"text":"跟在座的這個主席報告我們一定都聽進去一定會既然你要延續下去那我就問最後一個問題就好了我們還是每個月六萬塊請那家顧問公司現在還持續嗎六萬塊請哪一家顧問公司我上面就寫啦BALA PARTNER對 BALA 這個現在還持續嗎委員都可以看得到是 現在還持續嗎我們現在還持續啊你覺得是找他是對的嗎"},{"start":11609.657,"end":11630.025,"text":"這個我們會在年度的時候再做重新檢討所以你們當初跟他簽約簽多久我們簽約簽多久6個月簽6個月嘛所以不管怎麼樣6個月要跑完嘛對 36萬美金丟了就算丟了嘛人家是我們的好友跟我們講啦要拍馬屁拍到馬腿上啦"},{"start":11631.038,"end":11649.853,"text":"我講的比較直白是這樣啦我也沒怪你們說當初怎麼會這樣找資訊蒐集不夠共和黨內部的狀況沒有掌握清楚找到這一家結果拍馬屁拍到馬腿上最起碼我們在美國的友人是這樣善意提醒我們嘛"},{"start":11652.066,"end":11660.694,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝我們委員都會綜合考量再重新理由謝謝王國昌的質詢接下來由陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":11684.355,"end":11698.458,"text":"先請農業部 次長是 委員好次長好 次長我們有沒有跟談判辦公室有非常密切的聯繫"},{"start":11700.754,"end":11717.754,"text":"應該是說整個農業部都是談判的一個關鍵的核心農業部都是團隊的核心這是我們團隊的核心所以說在談判的過程中我們很清楚的讓整個談判過程都知道我們農業的底線是什麼應該沒有錯吧"},{"start":11720.058,"end":11733.75,"text":"應該說農業部就農業要考量的絕對會清楚的讓整個談判團隊知道對 因為剛才聽起來有些時候有些場合農業部的官員不見得是在這個談判的過程裡面"},{"start":11734.571,"end":11749.458,"text":"那其實在條約的這一個不管是條約也好或者是這個框架也好那有些時候不是每一個部會都會到期所以讓每一個關鍵的談判代表 談判副代表能夠知道我們農業部的底線非常重要"},{"start":11749.738,"end":11777.136,"text":"特別要講這件事情的原因是因為像是雞肉豬肉是不是會進一步的放寬進口限制或者是擴大進口的可能性是否會要求不另外標示原產地等等這些可能我們不知道因為現在還在談判的過程中但有可能都會在談判裡面成為它的一部分可能會被犧牲的部分那我們作為農業縣的立法委員我是絕對希望是農業部要全力要傳達給我們負責的代表們"},{"start":11780.018,"end":11808.763,"text":"這是我們要堅定的一些底線還有稻米 稻米包含日本其實在這一次他們的談判過程中也是受到很嚴重的影響所以我一直在強調不管是美國的這些各個不同的農產品他們這種大量的接近農業工業化的生產其實是對我國的各個品項我剛剛講到不管是豬 不管是雞不管是這些稻米等等都會有嚴重性的打擊"},{"start":11809.463,"end":11826.542,"text":"那加上我們這幾次的這些嚴重的災害已經有很大部分的尼龍潮也就是說青龍是慢慢的沒有辦法去接受這樣天然災害帶來的損害跟他們財務上面的損失所以這全部都是環環相扣的所以這一次的災害的條例裡面我一直在強調說"},{"start":11828.184,"end":11846.012,"text":"除了這個農損的部分之外還有這些外銷的獎勵金融的支持都必須在納入本次的範圍裡面因為這是雙重的打擊天災加上可能的這種關稅的影響那美國它是長期享有我們的這個順差29億美元所以在這個部分"},{"start":11849.251,"end":11867.468,"text":"這個美國優先不是我們優先我們台灣是優先的在這個狀況之下我們更要具體力爭所以這邊我跟次長講就拜託你肯定要把這個訊息要讓整個談判的代表們代表團都很清楚的知道那包含副院長那他的這個"},{"start":11869.059,"end":11891.398,"text":"跟他的對話裡面都要堅守這個底線因為台灣不是只有台積電一個產業嘛台積電獨好跟其他的產業是必須要共融才對啊那我們不可能犧牲弱勢的產業來去成就一個強勢的產業啊我們就是這個均衡台灣裡面是每個人要往前走一步不是一個人走一百步啊那現在看起來是產業面的話一片大好"},{"start":11892.299,"end":11912.527,"text":"但是都是在最高科技的產業是最具優勢的產業那它的好怎麼樣能夠來把它的這個它的榮耀也好它的利潤也好怎麼有辦法分給我們其他比較弱勢的農業呢這個都是我們必須要考量的部分那再來我們邀請這個副總裁麥代表謝謝委員委員好"},{"start":11919.778,"end":11939.41,"text":"副代表好 那現在都還是在爭取關稅減免當中所以剛才聽到很多的委員們的質詢其實我都可以理解因為現在就還在討論當中那既然有保密條約我們就我不要問內部的細節但是我要強調我們可以怎麼樣擴大我們的籌碼"},{"start":11940.31,"end":11964.927,"text":"那不要犧牲弱勢但是我們可以用我們可以做的產業我們可以做的採購來去增加我們的談判的能量那有人說是不是把安全的考量國防的這些採購也納入剛才聽次長要不次長 次長你有說說只有軍售的不算 商售的部分算那除了軍售商售之外我是希望說能夠把造建的合作也來可以換取這個關稅的減免"},{"start":11966.909,"end":11988.587,"text":"美國總統川普在今年3月他宣布他要成立造建辦公室那這個造建辦公室已經移至預算管理局裡面他直接掌控的分配在美國的大外媒法案中它的規模是430億美元那涉及的部分大家清清楚楚就是大量的零部件的採購那我想這個部分應該可以是在商售的部分"},{"start":11989.247,"end":12006.03,"text":"也就是說我們跟美國他們這個造艦的計畫也好我們可以配合甚至是說我們自己本身也可以看到我們海巡單位其實是面臨中國的海警船的時候他們大噸位 數量又多我們其實是可以做大量的採購的"},{"start":12007.071,"end":12027.237,"text":"那在這個部分我是希望談判辦公室可不可以利用台灣在印太安全跟造艦供應鏈他的這個戰略的地位我們來去爭取來去購買也好或者是採購各種不同的這種裝備來去增加我們的談判籌碼這個是不是可以也納入考量"},{"start":12029.079,"end":12050.544,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提醒我想我各種的意見我都會吸回然後提供給我們談判小組不過當然我相信大家也會看到像韓國確實他有特別提到他會在造船廠產業上面去宣布這些相關的投資這個看起來或許"},{"start":12051.164,"end":12074.317,"text":"美國是可以接受類似這樣子的一個提議不過我想每一個國家跟美國的經貿關係產業結構不同那每個國家的產業優勢大概也有相異所以我想就台灣來說我們在這個造船造艦的產業上面當然可以把這個委員的意見一併吸回讓我們的談判小組來參考"},{"start":12075.609,"end":12102.109,"text":"還有另外一點就是也不用好像是避而不談就是說大量的國防採購是不是也在本次的貿易談判裡面的框架之中我個人認為大量的國防採購那某種程度既可以緩解我們在農業部分不用這樣子浪利甚至犧牲我們的農業利益又能夠增強我的我國的國家安全的能量我認為這個是一個方向我不認為這是一個要避談的"},{"start":12103.17,"end":12112.061,"text":"如果能夠大量採購我們所需要的裝備來去爭取更好的稅率我覺得這是必須要為之的"},{"start":12113.999,"end":12134.46,"text":"甚至其實也不是只有國防我們最近看到很多的其實以前是在離島但是現在開始甚至包含本島都有這樣的狀況就是中國的漁船在不斷的想要切或者是他用各種他們其他國籍偽造的這些相關的船隻想要來去傷害我們的海欖那其實建造這個海欖的修復船它其實是很貴的"},{"start":12135.541,"end":12160.846,"text":"但是它又是必須要有的所以這些的設備它是把它們納入之後我們可以去遊說如果把這些納入之後又可以同時提升我們基礎設施的韌性跟造船產業的能量的話我認為也是可以維持的其實有很多事情是我們自己要創造籌碼我相信在談判的過程中各個部位都在裡面但是我們可以多項溝通從交通部到國防部我們可以採購的"},{"start":12161.846,"end":12176.168,"text":"我們能夠做的那又不會傷害到我們比較脆弱一點的產業的那就應該要這樣做再來就是我們上週跟烏克蘭的國會議員這個可能要請教次長交流的時候他說台廠的無人機電池在中國的售價"},{"start":12177.426,"end":12194.828,"text":"甚至比在台灣的售價還要便宜所以我必須強調我們一直說我們要挺烏克蘭要支持烏克蘭可是跟他們交流的時候發覺到說奇怪 我們怎麼這些我們的無人機的零件的這些市場的策略 成本的結構跟供應鏈的漏洞其實都有出現這樣子的狀況市長你可不可以簡單回應一下"},{"start":12195.345,"end":12208.048,"text":"是當然我們在跟這個尤其是包括烏克蘭在內其實我們做的更多的可能是在這個跟周邊的國家包括立陶宛包括拉脫維亞等等的這些國家"},{"start":12208.629,"end":12224.954,"text":"那麼也有積極的在推廣我們的無人機那麼至於是說它在這個您說的這個烏克蘭這個訪團所反映的這個問題我們會進行了解但是說很多時候還是廠商的決定那重點在於是說其實量要出來"},{"start":12226.795,"end":12251.588,"text":"這個是外交部要再努力的方向包括跟立陶宛 包括跟拉脫維亞 包括跟波蘭捷克是不是能夠推廣更多的合作像我們的無人機的產業訪問團在胡凱宏的董事長帶領之下我們也跟拉脫維亞 跟立陶宛簽訂了合作的標準我們希望在這方面能夠拓展我們的商機"},{"start":12252.388,"end":12263.294,"text":"能夠把單的量能夠做大然後能夠讓我們出口到這些國家的時候必去這個中國它的這個無人機的供應鏈那麼能夠來得好"},{"start":12265.017,"end":12290.724,"text":"我們一定會做好把關的動作我們跟經濟部跟其他相關的部會配合像對於所謂的出口管制飛鴻供應鏈的這個我們也會做更多的我希望我們不要把一些關鍵的零組件然後被低價轉售到一定烏克蘭的敵對的市場那這個就是拿自己的資源來砸自己的腳是不對的那這個一定要注重那再來就是跟烏克蘭的合作那外交部可能"},{"start":12291.704,"end":12311.414,"text":"要扮演更重要的角色來去聯繫特別是跟他們的廠商產業企業跟我國怎麼樣把他結架起來還有幫忙他們的人員訓練因為他們是第一時間第一手就是應用這些新科技的那都必須在我們的無人機的戰略裡面上次我問國防部長無人機的戰略是什麼他說這個非常機敏他不願意"},{"start":12312.575,"end":12337.506,"text":"透露不願意公開那我就手裡就拿著其他英國跟其他國家的這一個無人機的戰略那如果我們沒有戰略的思考那只是在這邊隨隨便便說這個也是涉及國家機密那就是走向不同的道路這個不同的道路就會開始有很多的問題出來就像剛剛提到的為什麼我國我們台廠自己製造的這些東西竟然在中國更便宜還要透過想要購買我們的東西還要從中國的市場這樣子"},{"start":12338.887,"end":12345.359,"text":"這個就是一個問題啊是那如果你戰略不透明完全同意不清晰那以後大家怎麼視從無以視從嘛對不對是謝謝"},{"start":12351.091,"end":12365.035,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員的諮詢接下來由蘇青前委員上台諮詢蘇青前委員上台諮詢蘇青前委員蘇青前委員不在張啟凱委員上台諮詢張啟凱委員張啟凱委員張啟凱不在那我們請林玉京委員上台諮詢"},{"start":12386.338,"end":12388.9,"text":"謝謝主席有請農業部及經濟部次長委員好"},{"start":12400.996,"end":12415.509,"text":"這次台美的關稅談判美國對台客人的20%的關稅竟然是只有樓地板因為實際上面的稅率竟然是疊加的關稅也就是在原有產業的關稅的稅率基礎上再加上一個關稅20%"},{"start":12417.791,"end":12420.754,"text":"所以這樣的話讓台灣的傳統的產業還有中小企業其實都衝擊都是非常大的然後8月7號也已經生效那我想請教次長 農業部的次長一下就是說這次台美關稅到底有沒有針對農漁產品的開放相信很多眾多的農民都是非常在意這個問題畢竟這次美國在跟各國的談判中都要求開放要"},{"start":12443.673,"end":12454.695,"text":"開放稻米等農產品的進口而且本席也居住在花蓮對於種植稻米是主要的地區所以我們花東地區的稻農其實都非常的擔心這樣台灣的稻米會受到整個衝擊然後花蓮有許多農民也更是擔心說現在台灣的稻米已經有生產過程的問題如果關稅的談判還擴大整個開放美國稻米的零關稅進口的話"},{"start":12467.438,"end":12469.879,"text":"那不只會衝擊到現在的關稅的配額的制度而會影響到未來稻米保價的收購的價格那請問一下就是說我們在農業方面我們讓步了哪些農漁產品讓步多少還有農業部與經濟部是否有做相關的衝擊上面的評估影響還有因應的方案呢"},{"start":12490.253,"end":12514.507,"text":"謝謝委員關心那台灣農業真的是非常特別的一環因為其實不是只有工人食用因為它有生態很多方面向的但是台灣跟美國的農業確實是有非常緊密的關係像台灣是美國第八大的農產品出口國我們主要進口是黃豆小麥玉米牛肉這些是我們國內需要的但是更重要的是美國是我們的第一大農產品出口國"},{"start":12515.507,"end":12545.067,"text":"我們出去但是我們的強項花卉 水產所以美國這一次現行之下的暫時的20%的關稅對我們農業來講確實是非常挑戰所以我們希望繼續跟美國談第一個是因為美國對我們本來就有農產品的順差雖然是我們需要但是有順差所以我想會站在這一點繼續跟美國談希望把它20%的暫時性關稅希望能夠再降低一點因為美國市場是我們台灣農產品的第一個出口市場"},{"start":12545.627,"end":12571.938,"text":"這是第一點那第二點不管有沒有要出口台灣農產品確實有需要做一些轉型也因應這次有一些衝擊所以我想對我們台灣農業第一個受到影響的這些不管是農民農企業或是團體在資金上面我們要給全力支持特別是最近的這些天災造成非常大的衝擊我想在農民這塊需要大的支持第二點我們也要轉型我們在"},{"start":12572.738,"end":12591.412,"text":"農產品的部分不是只為了提供給自己我們如果要放眼全世界不只去美國那這個產品確實要轉型那怎麼轉型包袋冷鏈在凍存方面有更大的彈性在加工上面有更好的品牌形象那第三在驗證方面也提升整個國際形象這個很重要那第三點更重要就是"},{"start":12592.153,"end":12610.29,"text":"我們這些產品這麼好除了供給國人使用能不能開拓更多的外銷市場所以這三點是我們在協助我們的農產品除了美國市場當然重要因為它是我們第一大的農產品出口市場但是其他市場我們也都不放棄因為這樣才能讓我們整個農業永續那也保護到我們所有的農漁民是農業部的立場"},{"start":12614.416,"end":12624.944,"text":"我另外再請教經濟部次長花蓮是以豐富的食材資源聞名的食材業也是花蓮重要的工商產業但是傳統食材產業常年都是依賴出口的外銷但這些產品大部分出口美國"},{"start":12631.189,"end":12632.43,"text":"然後這次受到關稅的衝擊整個產業都重創了然後根據了解四月的時候業者已經都是叫苦連天了他們面臨的食材產業的外銷都銷不出去的問題還有國內還有一些消費的訂單都已經整個都整個暫緩了"},{"start":12647.421,"end":12651.065,"text":"那根據花蓮縣府的統計食材業受到影響出估已經超過15%了食材產業當然是花蓮重要的工商業經濟的支柱啦如今因為美國的關稅面臨到整個的打擊影響到整個的供應鏈還有相關的產業那經濟部是否"},{"start":12665.399,"end":12668.48,"text":"已經有和地方的政府和業者共同討論怎樣的對策還有評估未來可能發生什麼樣的後續的問題否則未來我們花蓮重要的經濟密賣食材產業還有勞工的就業問題這個要怎麼解決因為這可能是另外一個花蓮經濟海嘯的整個前兆經濟部是否已經啟動了整個應變的機制"},{"start":12687.785,"end":12691.747,"text":"有沒有提供技術上面的支持還是協助企業調整市場上面的整個佈局強化產業的韌性這樣可以降低衝擊那請經濟部回答謝謝委員的關心確實我們經濟部一直以來都跟產業界不論是哪一個產業都保持密切的關係那有些尤其是我們特別關心是屬於我們中小企業型的傳統產業所以我們就特別提出了一個"},{"start":12716.782,"end":12738.192,"text":"高達460億的一個輔導的機制它可以從幾個面向第一個面向就是它如果業者希望做強化它的體質我們可以給予它的這個研發的相關的補助那如果它是中小企業它要做外銷我們也有這個外銷貸款的優惠的保證的加碼"},{"start":12739.432,"end":12759.179,"text":"如果你是屬於這種比較微中小企業最高的我們給一個保證的這個乘數最高可以高達六千萬那另外呢還有其他多元性的一些這個貸款的加碼他如果需要周轉金這個部分呢我們經濟部也可以給予"},{"start":12759.858,"end":12786.386,"text":"一些貸款額度那最重要的話就是他如果要外銷外銷的部分我們現在也匡列了100億來協助他們出口唾銷這些部分都已經在8月7號都已經上路了我們也有主動的通知各工協會由工協會來通知所屬的會員來多加利用我們所提出的這些各種輔導措施"},{"start":12787.196,"end":12791.718,"text":"好那我再問一下就是藥品呢針對藥品的進出口的貿易的業務仍然是經濟部的業務然後根據報導指出美國川普上週8月6號其實有暗示說這個禮拜這個星期將會宣布進口藥品而且藥品可能會高達250%的關稅"},{"start":12807.705,"end":12811.549,"text":"但是目前台灣的藥品的進口的關稅是零但美國關稅衝擊各項的產業川普也表示為了讓藥品能夠在美國製造揚言要對進口藥品提高到整個250%的關稅那這樣的情況下請問次長就你了解這樣整個還有整個掌握整個情況台灣的藥品"},{"start":12830.407,"end":12834.809,"text":"是否可能會因為這樣的關稅而失去了整個競爭的優勢呢還有針對目前藥品廠商可能受到這整個衝擊你們是否有評估還有怎麼樣你們開始有沒有研議開始要怎麼樣的因應的整個措施呢分兩點跟這個委員說明第一個部分藥品的關稅它是屬於232"},{"start":12855.146,"end":12871.143,"text":"到目前為止他還沒有公布到底他實際上的關稅是什麼所以我們都有密切的在注意第二點是我們最主要在藥品的部分我們是可以有一些利基型的藥品是去出口到美國"},{"start":12871.884,"end":12887.372,"text":"所以我們現在也是希望能夠透過加強我們研發的部分來提升我們藥品的競爭力另外就我所知衛福部因為藥廠是由衛福部所督管的所以衛福部也有提出相關的輔導的措施主席可以再給我兩分鐘還有一個問題謝謝 請外交部次長"},{"start":12903.686,"end":12931.689,"text":"委員好 市長好美國國務院前資深顧問馬惠頓在8月4號媒體的文章也提出我國駐美代表處5月開始每個月都花了6萬的美元請巴拉德合作的夥伴公司對川普進行遊說但是根據惠頓的說法這個期間其實遊說的不太順利而且間接也導致了台灣跟美國對等關稅的談判受到了整個阻礙請問從外交部的整個立場來看這一段的"},{"start":12933.59,"end":12943.335,"text":"期間的遊說的成果是正面還是負面的還有根據他的文章上面說駐美代表處這段時間的遊說不但沒有達到目的反而招來川普政府的反感這到底是什麼一回事呢還有針對這整個事件從這一次事件我們台美對等關稅的談判的結果"},{"start":12957.063,"end":12959.667,"text":"還是從軍購選項我們的自主性這樣我們來看台美關係真的是堅若磐石嗎請問外交部我國政府有沒有修正經營台美雙邊關係的整個策略呢"},{"start":12970.482,"end":12990.272,"text":"報告委員 我們隨時都在更新我們對於台美關係的了解跟認識就好像我之前已經陳述過了台美關係分好幾個層次從川普總統1月20號上台以來當然他在整個的因為他的上台最重要的一個工作"},{"start":12990.839,"end":13017.127,"text":"是在化解美國的這個大量的貿易赤字以及重啟美國的工業化再工業化的這個行動所以這個方面我們當然會面對到比較多的作為一個對美重要的貿易夥伴我們當然會承受到比較多的壓力但在其他的方面來說的話我們認識到說其實台美的關係仍然是溝通平順然後這個互動良好然後相關的這個"},{"start":13018.147,"end":13037.053,"text":"當然川普總統現在他的真正的注意力是所在都是在經貿談判的這一塊但是就我們的了解說在其他的面向來說的時候我們跟美國國務院包括跟美國國安會跟其他的各部會我們的溝通都是非常的順暢無礙的這跟委員報告第二個是說"},{"start":13038.922,"end":13067.505,"text":"惠頓是這個台灣的鎮友那麼這個孔子有說有質有量有多聞他屬於這個很直率的這樣的一個型那麼他有很多的這個提出來意見我們當然就是這個願意檢討接受那麼有一些他有誤解的地方我們一定會做好溝通的工作然後關於我們的使用到的這個公關公司那麼因為我們在面對到我們必須要這個用所有的手上所有的工具來打開我們的這個"},{"start":13069.166,"end":13098.077,"text":"對美的一個關係那有一些是惠正可以很好的了解的這個部分我們他這個意見我們當然會接納但是有一些部分他完全他不是完全的全貌的了解我們一定會跟他誠摯的這個說明第二個是說這個有關於我們跟這個相關的公關公司的合約都是有期限的我們會定期的來檢討那麼定期的來審視是不是有達到我們的這個期望的一個結果"},{"start":13098.686,"end":13116.722,"text":"院委員報告如上好 謝謝謝謝林益勳委員的資訊接下來有蔡元之葉元之委員上台資訊葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在"},{"start":13118.444,"end":13136.618,"text":"已登記執行的委員除不在場外 經已發言完畢 報告及執行詢答結束本日會議由林楚英委員 蘇清賢委員提出書面執行 請列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":13137.901,"end":13156.868,"text":"委員書面及口頭執行為其答覆部分或要求補充資料者請相關機關以書面以兩週內答覆委員另約定期限者依其所定本日會議到此結束 散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}