{"error":false,"id":["168695"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168695,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168695","日期":"2026-04-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-22T10:09:37+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-22T10:23:12+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:35","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1acd8df590777176bf38d440c98c629e7dfea45507174d07920347047a26059635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱慧洳","委員發言時間":"10:09:37 - 10:23:12","會議時間":"2026-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、經濟部、內政部、農業部、衛生福利部、國家發展委員會就「我國氣候變遷調適現況檢討與全球調適目標接軌之推動情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管預算案。(公務及非營業特種基金預算案)\n三、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款環境部主管部分預算。\n四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會等4家財團法人115年度預算書案。\n\n【預算案僅詢答，115年4月30日下午5時截止收案】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n\n【4月22日及23日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.063468750000002,"end":14.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.42534375,"end":18.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":17.46284375,"end":18.08721875,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":18.12096875,"end":18.49221875,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.69471875,"end":19.403468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.70721875,"end":21.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.68159375,"end":23.132843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":24.26346875,"end":45.88034375,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":45.99846875,"end":47.02784375,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":47.12909375,"end":48.59721875,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":48.057218750000004,"end":48.61409375,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":48.61409375,"end":52.12409375,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":52.360343750000006,"end":66.50159375,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":66.50159375,"end":74.61846875,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":68.20596875000001,"end":68.66159375000001,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":70.23096875,"end":70.63596875,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":72.96471875,"end":74.29784375,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":74.50034375,"end":78.01034375,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":74.68596875,"end":74.97284375000001,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"黃司長偉鳴","start":78.58409375000001,"end":88.75971875,"speaker_score":0.956},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.70909375000001,"end":90.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"黃司長偉鳴","start":90.71721875,"end":97.06221875,"speaker_score":0.956},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":93.72096875000001,"end":93.85596875,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":96.92721875000001,"end":116.67096875000001,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":116.90721875000001,"end":119.80971875,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":118.34159375,"end":118.86471875000001,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":119.80971875,"end":119.84346875000001,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":119.84346875000001,"end":129.71534375000002,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":126.77909375,"end":127.01534375000001,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":129.76596875,"end":138.92909375000002,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":139.31721875,"end":145.98284375,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":139.38471875000002,"end":139.84034375000002,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":146.05034375,"end":156.59721875,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":147.90659375,"end":148.00784375,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":149.34096875,"end":149.49284375000002,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":155.23034375,"end":188.55846875,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":188.55846875,"end":195.89909375000002,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":194.02596875,"end":198.19409375,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":198.75096875000003,"end":204.97784375,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":200.69159375,"end":202.36221875,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":204.97784375,"end":212.77409375000002,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":212.85846875000001,"end":221.59971875000002,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":220.92471875,"end":223.42221875,"speaker_score":0.86},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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12.8 去年我們這邊掌握的數字是12.1那沒關係也許可能是數字來源有一點落差但是您掌握的數字顯然還比我們高0.7那部長知道這個全台灣有哪幾個行政區域他的PM2.5是最高的嗎應該是南部 特別是應該是高雄"},{"start":72.034,"end":96.908,"text":"我不記得這個項目 請市長來答好 沒有問題 再請市長補充說明包委員 目前我們PM2.5合格的只有8個縣市比較不合格大部分在中部跟南部地區的情況那請問您有掌握數字嗎數字大概 因為它平均是12.8所以中南部的部分大概就在15到16左右"},{"start":97.088,"end":116.305,"text":"我們掌握的數字比這個還再淒慘一點就是來我們看一下雲林是17.4那這個高雄是17.3分別就是數一數二的高在所有的縣市當中那部長請問您知道WHO平均的PM2.5的濃度是多少嗎"},{"start":116.966,"end":135.66,"text":"你說WHO的標準還是全世界的濃度全世界的平均濃度全世界無法這樣算而且它WHO是一個概念式的如果按照WHO5的話維克的話全世界基本上沒有什麼幾個國家可以達標對 但是當然您提到的這個5是一個標準嘛但是我們台灣呢遠高於這個5好幾倍遠高於5這個好幾倍對 那我的意思就是說其實空汙的問題呢影響國人的健康勝據請問部長認同嗎"},{"start":146.347,"end":175.547,"text":"我認同 但是也跟委員報告這空汙的來源你不能用這樣的一個數字來看因為它有很多的來源我們的這種各種的移動型的我想來源不是人民關係人民關係是實際他身處在這個空間當中他有沒有送到這些空汙的清洗那我們來講空汙有可能會造成什麼過去五年有統計出來肺癌是十大死因的第一位而且不可否認的空汙的塵埃其實會侵襲人類的血管壁"},{"start":176.727,"end":197.793,"text":"清洗的那個血管壁可能會造成血管硬化也會造成血栓血栓流到腦部會造成中風流到心臟會造成心肌梗塞這完全是不可忽略的健康危險因子啊對 所以我們對症下藥我要把移動員各種的來源哪一個影響最大把它抓出來然後針對它做管制目前抓出來的移動員最高是什麼"},{"start":198.82,"end":219.916,"text":"就是汽機車啊 汽機車是最多的目前在台灣的整體而言 移動員已經高於固定污染源了那請問一下那您覺得雲林地區呢如果麥寮電廠要重新重啟會不會是一個很大的污染源這個要經過的才算因為這個我相信因為我們也是看到報載說有這個為了這個能源的危機可能有一些這個應對這個請他們來回答"},{"start":221.957,"end":234.892,"text":"但是給委員報告一個數字就是說我們從這個每年的這種所謂的各種各式各樣的來源比例我們的電廠大概在所有的這個排放源當中只有在幾%而已電廠"},{"start":237.074,"end":264.684,"text":"是不是污染源我想人民的感受可能跟你這邊有落差剛我們也看到數字雲林是17.4高雄是17.4恰恰這兩個地方都有電廠那我想電廠造成的空汙呢我覺得在人民的感受裡頭已經是一個不爭的事實那我現在跟你請教的是麥寮電廠要重啟麥寮電廠要重啟可能會讓空汙的情形雪上加霜有可能會衝擊到當地居民的健康那部長這件事情問你要怎麼維護"},{"start":265.524,"end":294.637,"text":"包委員你剛才說了台北市平均是9.4那你剛才說雲林是17點多那其實有不一樣的天氣氣候形態跟那個什麼跟各種原因會造成所以我們要對症下藥那至於說這個火力發電廠多少會造成這個空污的增加這是一個科學的問題所以你們這邊掌握的科學數字難道你要否認這個科學的數字嗎科學的事實嗎這個17絕對不是或是數字全部都是不是都是火力電廠造成的還有很多的來源所以我們要對症下藥"},{"start":294.997,"end":306.348,"text":"很多的來源 那很多的來源 那麥寮你覺得不是主因你這個話一講出來原因之一那佔比重多少因為你好像有點要輕輕的要放輕輕的放過這樣的數字好那沒有問題我只想請問你為什麼麥寮電廠要重啟這個不是我的權責好不好"},{"start":313.715,"end":317.637,"text":"那請陳副署長麥寮電廠為什麼要重啟我們從報章雜誌來看到這個4月16巩明新部長他就提到說這個要為了天然氣的一個彈性調度的原因所以麥寮電廠重啟了但是4月13我們的卓院長是怎麼說的"},{"start":332.344,"end":353.734,"text":"卓院長說四五六月天然氣調度無虞怎麼經過三天之後風雲變色情況批變變成是要去彈性調度這個天然氣以至於我們麥寮電廠要重啟我們的雲林居民何辜要用他們的費來發電犧牲他們的健康來成就這個電力的供應"},{"start":354.734,"end":368.567,"text":"跟委員報告主要是美伊戰爭那我們要增加台灣的能源韌性的部分那這個電廠他的電業執照還沒有過期的條件底下我們還重啟三個月不過這部分的話台電公司也承諾好那我們只記得部長"},{"start":370.308,"end":389.162,"text":"部長誇花其詞就是說四五六月天然氣供應無虞怎麼經過三天批變所以我們這邊想問一下就是我們的政府當然問人員署當然就是到底天然氣是供應無虞還是供應不足因為讓我們感覺很混淆一下子感覺很充分一下子又不足感覺"},{"start":389.922,"end":415.167,"text":"讓我們看了非常的疑惑根文報告每一戰爭以後經濟部每天都召開應變會議目前在做天然氣的調度的部分在六月底之前都供應無虞的部分可是我們要增加我們能源韌性的部分我們不能把所有的天然氣全部來用所以如果以一個所謂的一個月的麥寮電廠可以減少兩個船的天然氣的條件可是你這個是以麥寮的居民的健康作為犧牲讓他們用廢發電讓PH"},{"start":417.967,"end":435.558,"text":"PM2.5的濃度上升然後讓大家的血栓不斷的在形成然後最後傷害我們的頭腦跟我們的心臟這付出了健康代價是很大的我們現在請問一下那個台電請問一下台電能夠回答我們一下新達電廠的4號機今年能不能夠如期的除疫"},{"start":438.559,"end":458.247,"text":"委員好 跟委員報告今年四號機的部分呢那因為我們目前這個若按照環評我們四號機的部分今年年底是會進入除役那會轉成備用期所以就是可以如期除役嘛那我想我們全部的人在場都可以見證您今天的說法那我們也期待在年底能夠除役"},{"start":458.727,"end":476.495,"text":"因為麥寮的居民已經用廢發電了我們不希望高雄的居民再用廢發電因為這個PM2.5的濃度太堵了是造成十大死因肺癌的首因那我現在如果提起新達電廠的4號機那就不得不提起這個4號機跟3號機組在2004年9月30之後一直到隔年2025年的5月23號這段期間違法運作的情形"},{"start":486.119,"end":507.913,"text":"請問一下這個處長你有印象嗎我跟委員報告並不是違法運作應該依照我們這個整個法規的規定我們除役之後的機組是可以轉為緊急備用機組但是緊急備用機組也是在我們目前國家法令的規範之下它有它的運轉條件其實我知道這一段我完全有掌握但是這一段就是這個主管機關傻傻說不清楚那我們呢"},{"start":510.054,"end":526.284,"text":"已經認定了他就是一個違法的運作那如果這是一個違法的運作的話我們可以用這個例子來檢視空污法的救法跟現行法的妥適性那如果今天3號跟4號機組他的操作許可正式到9月"},{"start":527.144,"end":547.41,"text":"2014年的9月30號到期那如果用舊法來檢視呢來我們看一下舊法我們PPT上面有舊法如果呢操作許可證到期那就應該要停止運轉這是用舊法操作出來的結果相信也比較適切但是在2018年6月25號呢民主進步黨他去主導這一條的宣法他把"},{"start":547.79,"end":558.481,"text":"把它改成說操作許可證到期之後如果電廠有申請展延那麼在展延的過程當中主管機關會進來審查整段審查的過程當中機組是可以照常運作的但這裡會出現兩個荒謬的現象第一個荒謬的現象就是這個機組其實已經超過"},{"start":569.232,"end":585.857,"text":"操作許可的日期了那你讓這樣的一個機組繼續的運作有沒有安全上的疑慮這是一個荒謬值得思考的地方第二個呢這個機組呢已經超過操作許可日期了你讓他繼續運作而他的運作是取決於行政部門的審查期間"},{"start":586.997,"end":600.661,"text":"行政部門審查越久他可以運作越久一個機組的運作是取決於行政部門的審查期間而不是取決於他的機能不是取決於他的安全不是取決於他的效能這個會不會太荒謬這個會不會太可笑來這個請處長回答"},{"start":604.602,"end":627.752,"text":"好謝謝委員那基礎的安全基礎的效能並不會因為我許可證的展延申請有受到任何的影響那因為法授予人民有一定的保障的權利那因為合法的業者業者在許可證申請期間那目前的法規的規定是授予業者在申請期間行政審查過程當中仍然可以依照原證的條件繼續操作這跟安全還有"},{"start":628.132,"end":655.038,"text":"原政的條件那如果空污很高也是要按照原政的條件操作嘛申請展延一定有他行政把關的目的完全不會像你這樣子完全好像是跟原狀來運作也完全沒有任何健康上安全上效能上的疑慮好那所以我們台灣民眾黨呢認為說2018年民主進步黨所修法的這個叫做霸王條款就是要讓台電的機組呢能夠無限上綱的運作下去"},{"start":655.498,"end":671.824,"text":"取決於行政部門的審查期間而這個審查期間有可能就是一個大開方便之門的一個條文所以我們台灣民眾黨提出一個版本就是如果這個申請展延的案件超過操作許可期限至多只能夠操作兩個月"},{"start":673.004,"end":698.746,"text":"那過了兩個月如果行政部門的審查結果還沒有出來就是要立刻停機這個是我們台灣民眾黨為我們控制空汙跟減少空汙盡的一份努力特別今天是世界地球日我們必須把這個訴求呈現出來各位委員報告也請委員要務實一點因為有些地方過去有發生過一些事實是地方用一些原因藉故一直延期讓這個完全許可證完全沒法所以我們就是要杜絕這個亂象"},{"start":700.467,"end":728.24,"text":"那個亂象不是任何業者造成的是有些行政機關他特別的去做處理所以我們就是要讓這些行政機關能夠不要上下其手的空間那除此之外剛處長這邊有提到說什麼展延期間還可以按照允許可證那你這樣不是讓申請展延的行政流程流於這個一個流於一個形式嗎所以我們台灣民眾黨也提出另外一個修法當行政機關他在申請"},{"start":728.98,"end":753.268,"text":"他在申請展言行政機關在審理展言案件的時候我們對於原許可證有一個變更的權限什麼情況之下有變更的權限就是在這個機組的操作有害於民眾的健康之餘所以我們修法也修出這樣的一個方向來那其實也是為了控制空污也是為了保障人民的健康所以我們有做出一個這樣的修法"},{"start":754.108,"end":773.37,"text":"那請問一下處長您的看法跟委員報告齁其實這個展延的這個相關規定其實在原來的空氣污染相關法規就已經有只是後來修正的時候把它修到母法去原因是基於性愛保護原則因為業者提出這樣的申請以後因為行政機關的審查拖延導致他必須要"},{"start":773.971,"end":801.619,"text":"法律他去修正有各種原因你講的信賴保護原則那是你的說法那我覺得展言呢我們要盡好我們行政機關的職責所以呢我們在這邊提出修法提出修法就是避免讓部長剛說的行政機關有上下其手的空間我們把它防堵起來除此之外對於申請展言的允許可證行政機關也有一個變更的一個權限理由就在於如果他發現有傷害到人民健康之慾這是我們台灣民眾黨"},{"start":802.659,"end":810.267,"text":"提出來的修法方向那今天是世界地球日我們就在這邊跟大家分享然後讓大家看到台灣民眾黨所做的努力那以上說明謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:09:45.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:09:47.290000+08:00","text":"有請環境部彭部長、能源署陳副署長及台電郭處長。","quality":0.381},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-22T10:09:47.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:09:56.043000+08:00","text":"有請彭部長、能源署陳副署長及台電郭處長。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:10:01.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:10:06.977000+08:00","text":"主席、各位與會的委員同仁、政府部門的同仁，大家好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:10:07.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:10:07.217000+08:00","text":"部長，您好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:10:07.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:10:24.422000+08:00","text":"我今天想跟您交流錯誤的能源政策的問題，我想請問部長，您有掌握過去一年臺灣平均PM2.5的濃度是多少嗎？12.8。12.8？去年。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:10:25.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:10:36.848000+08:00","text":"我們這邊掌握的數字是12.1，沒關係，也許可能是數字來源有一點落差，但是您掌握的數字顯然還比我們高0.7。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:10:36.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:10:44.192000+08:00","text":"部長知道全臺灣有哪幾個行政區域的PM2.5是最高的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:10:44.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:10:46.773000+08:00","text":"應該是南部，特別是高雄。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:10:49.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:10:51.335000+08:00","text":"我不記得詳細數字，請我們司長來回答。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:10:52.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:10:54.417000+08:00","text":"好，沒有問題，再請司長補充說明。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃司長偉鳴","start":"2026-04-22T10:10:55.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:11:04.743000+08:00","text":"報告委員，目前我們PM2.5合格的只有8個縣市，比較不合格的大部分都在中部跟南部地區。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:11:06.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:11:08.205000+08:00","text":"請問你有掌握數字嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃司長偉鳴","start":"2026-04-22T10:11:08.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:11:13.888000+08:00","text":"數字的部分，平均是12.8，中南部的部分大概都是在15到16左右。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:11:14.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:11:26.940000+08:00","text":"我們掌握的數字比這個還再淒慘一點，請看一下簡報資料，雲林是17.4、高雄是17.3，在所有的縣市當中是數一數二的高。","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:11:28.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:11:33.305000+08:00","text":"部長，請問您知道WHO所建議PM2.5的平均濃度是多少嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:11:33.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:11:36.508000+08:00","text":"你說WHO的標準還是全世界的濃度？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:11:36.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:11:37.909000+08:00","text":"全世界的平均濃度。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:11:38.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:11:47.055000+08:00","text":"全世界無法這樣算，而且WHO是一個概念式的，如果按照WHO的5維克的話，全世界基本上沒有幾個國家可以達標。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:11:47.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:11:52.660000+08:00","text":"當然，您提到的這個5是一個標準嘛，但是我們臺灣遠高於這個5好幾倍，我的意思就是說，其實空污的問題影響國人的健康甚巨，請問部長認同嗎？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:12:03.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:12:11.893000+08:00","text":"我認同，但是也跟委員報告，空污的來源不能用這樣的數值來看，因為它有很多的來源，我們各種移動型的、固定型的……","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:12:12.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:12:19.838000+08:00","text":"我想來源不是人民關心的，人民關心的是實際他身處於這個空間當中有沒有受到這些空污的侵襲。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:12:20.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:12:23.300000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下空污有可能會造成什麼？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:12:23.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:12:45.350000+08:00","text":"過去五年的統計，肺癌是十大死因的第一位，而且不可否認的，空污的塵埃其實會侵襲人類的血管壁，侵襲人類血管壁後可能會造成血管硬化，也會造成血栓，血栓流到腦部會造成中風、流到心臟會造成心肌梗塞，這完全是不可忽略的健康危險因子啊！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:12:45.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:12:52.512000+08:00","text":"對，所以我們對症下藥，我要把移動源、各種來源中影響最大的抓出來，然後針對它去做管制。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:12:52.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:12:54.793000+08:00","text":"你目前抓出來的移動源最高的是什麼？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:12:55.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:12:58.102000+08:00","text":"就是汽機車，汽機車是最多的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:12:58.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:13:01.824000+08:00","text":"目前就臺灣整體而言，移動源已經高於固定污染源了。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:13:02.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:13:09.530000+08:00","text":"請問一下，如果雲林地區的麥寮電廠重啟，您覺得這會不會是一個很大的污染源？","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:13:10.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:13:16.896000+08:00","text":"這個要經過計算，因為我們也是看到報載，為了能源危機可能有一些應對，這個請他們來回答……","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:13:16.896000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T10:13:18.957000+08:00","text":"其實剛剛有提供一個數字……","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:13:18.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:13:31.872000+08:00","text":"但是給委員報告一個數字，從每年各式各樣的來源比例，我們的電廠大概在所有排放源當中只有占幾個百分點而已。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:13:31.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:13:37.755000+08:00","text":"電廠是不是污染源，我想人民的感受可能跟你這邊有落差……對……","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:13:38.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:14:01.684000+08:00","text":"剛剛我們也看到數字，雲林是17.4、高雄是17.3，恰恰這兩個地方都有電廠，我想電廠造成的空污在人民的感受裡頭已經是一個不爭的事實，我現在要跟你請教的是，麥寮電廠可能要重啟，麥寮電廠的重啟可能會讓空污的情形雪上加霜，也有可能會衝擊到當地居民的健康，部長，請問你對這個情況要怎麼維護？","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:14:02.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:14:14.569000+08:00","text":"報告委員，你剛剛的資料臺北市平均是9.4、雲林是17.4，其實不一樣的天氣、氣候型態及各種原因會造成這樣的情況，所以我們要對症下藥。","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:14:14.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:14:20.332000+08:00","text":"至於火力發電廠多少會造成空污的增加，這是一個科學的問題，我們要用科學的方式去討論。","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:14:20.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:14:25.794000+08:00","text":"所以你們這邊掌握的科學數字，難道你要否認這個科學的數字、科學的事實嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:14:25.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:14:31.637000+08:00","text":"17這個數字並不是全部都是火力電廠造成的，還有很多的來源，所以我們要對症下藥。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:14:31.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:14:35.040000+08:00","text":"很多的來源，你覺得麥寮不是主因？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:14:35.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:14:38.203000+08:00","text":"你這個話一講出來……","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:14:38.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:14:38.724000+08:00","text":"原因之一。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:14:38.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:14:39.704000+08:00","text":"原因之一，那占比重多少？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:14:39.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:14:41.786000+08:00","text":"因為你好像有一點要輕輕的放過這樣的數字……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:14:41.786000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T10:14:42.786000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有！","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:14:42.786000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T10:14:43.786000+08:00","text":"委員不能這樣斷章取義喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:14:43.786000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T10:14:44.786000+08:00","text":"請委員不要斷章取義，我們是從來源的科學根據……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:14:41.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:14:42.747000+08:00","text":"好，沒有問題，我只是想請問你，為什麼麥寮電廠要重啟？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:14:42.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:14:43.148000+08:00","text":"這個不是我的權責。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:14:50.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:14:51.375000+08:00","text":"請問陳副署長，麥寮電廠為什麼要重啟？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:14:51.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:14:54.617000+08:00","text":"我們從報章雜誌看到，4月16日龔明鑫部長就提到，為了天然氣的彈性調度，所以麥寮電廠重啟了，但是4月13日我們的卓院長是怎麼說的？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:15:09.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:15:25.451000+08:00","text":"卓院長說4、5、6月天然氣調度無虞，怎麼經過3天之後風雲變色、情況丕變，變成要彈性調度天然氣，以致於麥寮電廠要重啟，我們雲林的居民何辜啊！","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:15:26.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:15:30.734000+08:00","text":"要用他們的肺來發電，犧牲他們的健康來成就電力的供應。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳副署長崇憲","start":"2026-04-22T10:15:31.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:15:44.626000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，主要是美伊戰爭，我們要增加臺灣的能源韌性，在這個電廠的電業執照還沒有過期的條件底下，我們重啟三個月，不過這個部分台電公司也承諾，台電的用煤量不會增加……","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:15:44.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:15:53.873000+08:00","text":"好，我們只記得院長夸夸其詞說4、5、6月天然氣供應無虞，怎麼經過三天就丕變？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:15:53.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:16:01.418000+08:00","text":"我們這邊想問一下我們的政府，也就是問能源署，到底天然氣是供應無虞還是供應不足？","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:16:02.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:16:08.302000+08:00","text":"因為讓我們感覺很混淆，一下子感覺很充分、一下子又不足，讓我們看了感到非常的疑惑。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳副署長崇憲","start":"2026-04-22T10:16:08.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:16:29.066000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，美伊戰爭以後，經濟部每天都召開應變會議，目前在天然氣調度的部分，6月底之前都供應無虞，可是我們要增加能源的韌性，我們不能把所有的天然氣全部使用，如果以麥寮電廠一個月的發電可以減少兩個船的天然氣的條件底下……","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:16:29.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:16:44.533000+08:00","text":"可是你這個是以麥寮居民的健康作為犧牲，讓他們用肺發電，讓PM2.5的濃度上升、讓大家的血栓不斷地形成，然後最後傷害我們的頭腦跟我們的心臟，這個付出的健康代價是很大的。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:16:45.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:16:52.518000+08:00","text":"我現在請問台電，請台電回答一下，興達電廠4號機今年能不能夠如期除役？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"吳處長政宏","start":"2026-04-22T10:16:55.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:16:55.779000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳處長政宏","start":"2026-04-22T10:16:56.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:17:06.944000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，有關4號機的部分，如果按照環評，4號機在今年年底是會進入除役、會轉成備用機組。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:17:07.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:17:09.625000+08:00","text":"所以就是可以如期除役嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:17:10.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:17:25.592000+08:00","text":"好，我想我們全部在場的人都可以見證您今天的說法，我們也期待在年底能夠除役，麥寮的居民已經用肺發電了，我們不希望高雄的居民再用肺發電，因為這個PM2.5的濃度太毒了，是造成十大死因肺癌的首因。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:17:27.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:17:45.901000+08:00","text":"如果提起興達電廠4號機，就不得不提起4號機跟3號機組在2024年9月30日之後，一直到隔年2025年5月23日這段期間違法運作的情形，請問處長，你有印象嗎？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"吳處長政宏","start":"2026-04-22T10:17:46.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:17:58.529000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，並不是違法運作，因為依照整個法規的規定，除役之後的機組是可以轉為緊急備用機組，但是緊急備用機組在目前國家法令的規範之下有它的運轉條件跟運轉時數。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:17:59.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:18:38.708000+08:00","text":"我知道，這一段我完全有掌握，但是這一段就是主管機關傻傻說不清楚，我們已經認定它就是一個違法的運作，如果這是一個違法運作的話，我們可以用這個例子來檢視空污法的舊法跟現行法的妥適性，如果3號跟4號機組的操作許可證在2024年9月30號到期，如果用舊法來檢視，我們來看一下舊法，我的PPT上面有舊法，如果操作許可證到期，就應該要停止運轉，這是適用舊法的結果，相信也比較適切。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:18:39.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:18:54.320000+08:00","text":"但是在2018年6月25日民主進步黨去主導這一條的修法，把它改成操作許可證到期之後，如果電廠有申請展延，在展延的過程當中，主管機關會進來審查，在審查的過程當中，機組是可以照常運作的。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:18:54.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:19:11.774000+08:00","text":"這裡會出現兩個荒謬的現象：第一個荒謬的現象就是，這個機組其實已經超過操作許可日期了，你讓這樣一個機組繼續運作，有沒有安全上的疑慮？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:19:11.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:19:37.581000+08:00","text":"這是一個荒謬且值得思考的地方；第二個，這個機組已經超過操作許可日期了，你讓它繼續運作，而且它的運作是取決於行政部門的審查期間，行政部門審查越久，它可以運作越久，一個機組的運作是取決於行政部門的審查期間，而不是取決於它的機能、不是取決於它的安全、不是取決於它的效能，這個會不會太荒謬、這個會不會太可笑？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:19:37.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:19:37.641000+08:00","text":"請處長回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳處長政宏","start":"2026-04-22T10:19:41.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:20:04.332000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，機組的安全及機組的效能並不會因為許可證的展延申請而受到任何的影響，因為法授予人民有一定的保障權利，合法業者在許可證展延申請的期間，目前法規的規定是授予業者在申請期間、行政審查過程當中，仍然可以依照原證的條件繼續操作，這跟安全及環保無關。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:20:05.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:20:10.093000+08:00","text":"原證的條件，那如果空污很高，也是要按照原證的條件操作嗎？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:20:10.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:20:22.116000+08:00","text":"申請展延一定有行政把關的目的，完全不會像你這樣說的照原證來運作，也完全沒有任何健康上、安全上、效能上的疑慮。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:20:23.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:21:04.777000+08:00","text":"我們台灣民眾黨認為2018年民主進步黨所修法的這個霸王條款，就是要讓台電的機組能夠無限上綱的運作下去，取決於行政部門的審查期間，而這個審查期間有可能就是一個大開方便之門的條文，所以我們台灣民眾黨提出一個版本，就是如果申請展延的案件超過操作許可期限，至多只能夠操作2個月，過了2個月，如果行政部門的審查結果還沒有出來，也要立刻停機，這個是我們台灣民眾黨為我們控制空污跟減少空污盡的一份努力，特別今天是世界地球日，我們必須把這個訴求呈現出來。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:21:05.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:21:14.265000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，也請委員要務實一點，因為有些地方過去曾發生過一些事實，是地方用一些原因藉故一直延期，讓這個許可證完全無法……讓某些單位……","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:21:14.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:21:15.726000+08:00","text":"是，所以我們就是要杜絕這個亂象跟弊病。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:21:17.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:21:22.410000+08:00","text":"那個亂象不是任何的業者造成的，而是有些行政機關特別的去做處理。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:21:22.410000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T10:21:23.410000+08:00","text":"對，所以我們就是要……","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:21:23.410000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T10:21:24.410000+08:00","text":"也希望委員可以務實的了解實情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:21:22.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:21:28.752000+08:00","text":"我們就是要讓這些行政機關不要有上下其手的空間。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:21:28.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:21:40.838000+08:00","text":"除此之外，剛剛處長有提到，展延期間還可以按照原許可證操作，這樣不是讓申請展延的行政流程流於形式嗎？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:21:40.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:21:56.523000+08:00","text":"所以我們台灣民眾黨也提出另外一個修法，當行政機關在審理展延案件的時候，我們對於原許可證有一個變更的權限，什麼情況之下有變更的權限？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:21:56.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:22:12.810000+08:00","text":"就是這個機組的操作有害於民眾的健康之虞，所以我們修法也修出這樣的一個方向來，這其實也是為了控制空污、也是為了保障人民的健康，所以我們有提出一個這樣的修法，請問一下處長的看法如何？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"吳處長政宏","start":"2026-04-22T10:22:13.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:22:30.350000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實展延的相關規定在原來的空氣污染相關法規就已經有，只是後來修正的時候把它修到母法去，原因是基於信賴保護原則，在業者提出這樣的申請後，因為行政機關的審查拖延，導致它必須要……","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:22:30.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:22:48.696000+08:00","text":"好，我想法律的修正有各種原因，你講的信賴保護原則是你的說法，我覺得展延的部分，我們要盡好行政機關的職責，所以我們在這邊提出修法，就是避免讓部長剛剛說的行政機關有上下其手的空間，我們把它防堵起來。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:22:48.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:23:00.660000+08:00","text":"除此之外，對於申請展延的原許可證，行政機關也有一個變更的權限，理由就在於如果發現有傷害到人民健康之虞，這是我們台灣民眾黨提出來的修法方向。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:23:01.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:23:06.246000+08:00","text":"今天是世界地球日，我們就在這邊跟大家分享，讓大家看到台灣民眾黨所做的努力。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-22T10:23:06.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:23:07.267000+08:00","text":"以上說明，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-22T10:23:07.767000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T10:23:10.338429+08:00","text":"謝謝邱慧洳委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-22T10:23:10.638429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T10:23:18.352714+08:00","text":"待會於邱鎮軍委員詢答完畢後休息10分鐘，現在請邱鎮軍委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}