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有請陳主委請陳主委備質詢 謝謝主委好 委員好我想針對河山廠這個再運轉的這個計畫實施審查這個月8月已經完成了程序的審查那接下來就是要邀請專家學者跟河南會你們內部的同仁來進行所謂的專案的這個"},{"start":31.065,"end":48.476,"text":"審查的團隊來組成然後依照法規跟參考國際的做法來進行嚴格的技術審查也就是說我們要進入實施審查的部分那下週二好像也是要在恆春來辦理地方的說明會來廣納在地的意見"},{"start":52.078,"end":78.694,"text":"據了解這次台電送和安會的核生產債務轉計畫內容很龐大包括本文就有300多頁總頁數也有將近700頁不過台電有說會密集追蹤和安會的進度希望能縮短溝通的行政時程我想請教主委什麼叫縮短溝通的行政"},{"start":79.914,"end":106.989,"text":"時程就是說核能的安全有寬鬆跟趕進度的空間嗎主委核安會是秉持核管法做嚴格的審查一定是按部就班按進度進行所以台電說什麼會希望縮短溝通的行政時程這個就你沒有在理他就對了就是按照按部就班按照核能安全嚴密的審查 對吧"},{"start":107.95,"end":129.011,"text":"好 那本席過去就一再強調核能不只是技術的問題它牽涉到全民的信任還有對國家未來能源發展的願景還有後代子孫怎麼不必須負擔這些那麼高昂的這個核廢料的處置成本4月28號你們要去恆春舉辦的地方說明會"},{"start":131.175,"end":146.568,"text":"本席就要請教主委就在位處這個地震帶有這個核電廠那它深受影響的就只有所謂的在地恆春的居民嗎那台灣我們就是說我們"},{"start":147.449,"end":168.782,"text":"真的一定要到所謂的這個因為其實河山廠他年限已經到期他運轉了40年那已經也除役了那你要讓他繼續運轉這件事情難道只是所謂的地方議題嗎他不是全國的議題嗎那所以如果說就民意因為我們去地方是要探尋民意嘛那如果說就"},{"start":169.702,"end":181.767,"text":"你如果認為他是全國的議題那就全國性的民意的部分那你核安會要怎麼樣去做面對跟採納這是第一個問題第二個問題是那如果台灣我們要繼續運轉這個核電廠那"},{"start":185.248,"end":211.01,"text":"我們將受 我認為將受影響的國人有受到影響的國人就叫在地居民嘛所謂在地不是核餐廠位居的那個地方而已因為我們很清楚知道嘛他有恆春活動斷層帶從下方通過那反映如下方他的過去嚴懲受擠壓容器的所謂的被邪構造"},{"start":211.55,"end":234.491,"text":"也就是說這個岩層它受到擠壓石拱起來的結構這表示地底下它曾經發生過變形的作用那日本福島核災發生的時候日本政府是建議要疏散30公里的居民那美國是撤僑80公里所以我們的核三廠半徑就足足有80公里那涵蓋 屏東縣"},{"start":237.11,"end":237.31,"text":"我請林組長回答"},{"start":257.346,"end":271.484,"text":"報告委員就是針對如果發生核子事故因為以目前就是有的案例會知道因為核子事故它有一個方向性因為主要對於場外的居民來說主要是確保就是希望不要受到輻射程的影響"},{"start":272.586,"end":290.365,"text":"因為輻射程它如果飄出來的時候是會隨著就是大氣所以它會有一個方向性因為隨著這個氣流的方向風向的部分那所以一般在做緊急應變和只是過了緊急應變的時候第一步都會先請民眾在做室內的演繹"},{"start":291.726,"end":318.702,"text":"接著就會看在沒有輻射程飄散出來的時候才做這個緊急的一個疏散疏散因為如剛剛委員所關心的像這個撤離安置是非常重要的事情在整個過程中也必須都要確保撤離安置民眾的一個安全所以在事前的準備以及這個疏散的過程也都是會分階段分時序的來進行"},{"start":319.822,"end":339.74,"text":"對 所以也一定不只恆春也不只屏東縣嘛應該是就是說我剛剛提的 你的80公里 半徑80公里 方圓半徑80公里你是涵蓋到台東縣還有高雄市啦所以你的撤離安置計畫或者整個的應該是也包括這些縣市吧"},{"start":340.541,"end":357.441,"text":"目前因為我們除了核子事故地方政府有核子事故的緊急應變計畫之外那另外也會災防法裡面也有整個就是全國的一個緊急應變計畫所以各地方政府他們都會互相的去做支援"},{"start":358.562,"end":383.868,"text":"那剛剛提到全國嘛我剛剛一開始的第一個問題就是說這個不單純只是一個地方議題吧它應該也是全國議題不然為什麼要通告各縣市政府那如果是全國的議題的話那面對這次的民意的這個採納那是不是不能只在恆春辦說明會而已不能只在恆春廣納民意而已你是不是還要有全國性的這個民意的採納的過程"},{"start":388.092,"end":415.086,"text":"這次說明會我們有現場直播而且任何人都可以在平安會的網站上提出意見我們對所有問題我們都一定會一一答覆所以你是實質的說明會在恆春舉辦可是你是用直播的方式所以全國人民只要對這個事情有一些意見或想法都可以通過你的網站跟您反映"},{"start":415.887,"end":430.269,"text":"對那你其實可以正式的開所謂的全國性的這個直播的說明會啊可以考慮看看嗎那個就是針對全國性的當然啦那是在地可以直接讓居民可以去了好"},{"start":431.594,"end":448.733,"text":"剛討論到的都還是核能安全的問題那接下來跟主委討論到的是幾乎沒有辦法解決的核廢料問題我們光是這個低階核廢料到現在都測不出藍雨那我們到底有多少的本錢說要處理更所謂的更高階的核廢料"},{"start":449.654,"end":463.841,"text":"所以主委 你很清楚啊 這個最終的處置的場址啦要兼顧所謂的地層的那個 兼顧的穩定又沒有地下水 又不滲水這個條件台灣找到這種地點嗎 即便那裡找到啦最大的挑戰是 那當地的居民會同意這樣的一個高階這個核廢料會伴隨終生嗎"},{"start":475.628,"end":483.854,"text":"而且我們又還沒有通過所謂的高放射廢棄物處置條例的立法所以在這個情況之下"},{"start":484.997,"end":506.209,"text":"我要請教主委 你這樣的話這些核廢我們如果繼續運轉那這些核廢的成本是要轉嫁給未來的世代嗎 你認為呢經濟部已經成立了專案辦公室處理這方面的問題而且我們有核後端基金來支付有關的經費"},{"start":510.011,"end":515.797,"text":"這點恐怕有經濟部人回答會適合一點我們說到經費台電跟經濟部去年6月初有去芬蘭考察全球首座深層地質核廢料的處理廠叫安克羅這次的參訪"},{"start":529.89,"end":550.757,"text":"那個芬蘭這個設計喔芬蘭有答應說要把這個技術輸入給我們台電所以第一步的工程技術可能可以克服啦那我想請教主委說我們複製這個安克羅模式是未來我們高階合肺的處理就是所謂處置方向嗎是嗎"},{"start":552.923,"end":564.97,"text":"這個請陳主席來回答報告委員目前台電公司所提的處置概念其實是跟瑞典還有芬蘭是相近的就是剛才委員提到這個"},{"start":567.867,"end":583.449,"text":"今年安克羅這個要試營運那芬蘭是從1983年起花了17年的時間做調查啦溝通啦才敲定的長職然後又花了20年好不容易在今年要試營運所以"},{"start":585.111,"end":600.881,"text":"加上最初一開始的研究時間我想芬蘭恐怕是花了半世紀的時間人力物力的投入才實現了所謂的永久儲置場的建設那光是我們說費用就耗費了10億歐元差不多台幣370億那後續我們還有所謂的百年運作還有最終的封存還有40歐億元約台幣差不多1400多億"},{"start":611.247,"end":634.213,"text":"好那這些我看也不是結束因為我們要真正喔這個最終就是真正要去除這個高階核廢料對環境的威脅所需的時間可能還要數十萬年吧我們都活不了那麼久所以我們很難預估未來地球是怎麼樣樣貌好那所以芬蘭的科學家跟研究人員其實他一直"},{"start":634.893,"end":657.145,"text":"就是在興建這個核廢料這個最終處置場的時候他其實有把戰爭啊 極端氣候啊甚至未來人類的好奇心都評估在內那用盡各種方法要這個確保核廢料這個最終處置場不會被開啟或者被破壞那諸位 如果我們把這些成本都算進去那核電真的便宜嗎"},{"start":659.052,"end":682.695,"text":"跟委員報告一下台電公司經濟部的後端基金裡面大概有1800億是用來處置高方廢棄物就是這個計畫那剛才委員所提到這些概念其實它是一個被動式安全也是目前我們採用的就是我們不主動依賴人類的監管而是將來它處置後它能夠被動達到安全就要花那麼多錢嗎"},{"start":684.277,"end":701.813,"text":"對 不過目前台電也是有這樣的錯誤是有這樣的做法就是這就是核能發電它必須面對的成本你不能光核電廠這樣就是你要看後面的好 那我們再花30秒就是說我們在討論今天的主題就是因此能法"},{"start":702.654,"end":729.716,"text":"因為上次我詢問過主委那主委說現在並沒有這個檢討修正的必要因為他50年沒有修了那你說目前執行上也沒有致癌難行喔那不過你說會與時俱進的檢討所以我想要請教主委除了這次提出的修法就是組織名稱的這個修正以外那你認為還有什麼哪裡有進一步需要修正的地方"},{"start":730.95,"end":756.468,"text":"目前对于原子能法的修法的草案呢合同会已经规划了原子能法修法草案原则上仍朝基本法方向修正是并明定组织原子能安全管制原子能科学与技术的研究发展奖励免税及赔偿以及负责等"},{"start":757.088,"end":779.533,"text":"五張共27條 所以你們已經有草案了對 已經目前已經在嚴密之中 好好就是會大修 然後已經有一些復案就對了對 好好 那就期待您的復案出來那未來相關的問題我們審查法案的時候再來討論好 謝謝主席 謝謝主委謝謝林議警委員質詢 官員請回座"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}