{"error":false,"id":["168714"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168714,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168714","日期":"2026-04-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-22T10:46:12+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-22T10:59:33+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:21","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5b5880b40c5769f1649e2bfcc752544ef38d440c98c629e74f2050ed7b2b649bda828a474ca019315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:46:12 - 10:59:33","會議時間":"2026-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、交通部、經濟部、內政部、農業部、衛生福利部、國家發展委員會就「我國氣候變遷調適現況檢討與全球調適目標接軌之推動情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管預算案。(公務及非營業特種基金預算案)\n三、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款環境部主管部分預算。\n四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會等4家財團法人115年度預算書案。\n\n【預算案僅詢答，115年4月30日下午5時截止收案】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n\n【4月22日及23日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":5.81909375,"end":8.637218750000002,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":12.180968750000002,"end":12.99096875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":13.26096875,"end":32.90346875,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":25.05659375,"end":25.37721875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":33.05534375,"end":38.455343750000004,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":38.74221875,"end":45.306593750000005,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蔡署長玲儀","start":45.59346875,"end":49.57596875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蔡署長玲儀","start":49.845968750000004,"end":52.984718750000006,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蔡署長玲儀","start":53.17034375,"end":59.025968750000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蔡署長玲儀","start":59.312843750000006,"end":66.72096875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蔡署長玲儀","start":67.04159375,"end":95.98221875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蔡署長玲儀","start":96.03284375000001,"end":96.97784375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":96.97784375,"end":97.58534375,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蔡署長玲儀","start":97.58534375,"end":97.97346875000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":97.97346875000001,"end":142.91159375,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":142.96221875,"end":149.61096875,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":149.79659375,"end":153.03659375,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":153.12096875,"end":187.07346875000002,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":187.56284375,"end":223.05096875,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":223.62471875000003,"end":229.24409375000002,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":229.17659375000002,"end":265.60971875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":232.75409375,"end":232.87221875,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":235.04909375000003,"end":235.43721875000003,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":264.81659375000004,"end":265.86284375,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":266.58846875,"end":267.48284375000003,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":267.48284375000003,"end":271.51596875,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":268.10721875,"end":269.60909375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":270.67221875,"end":281.32034375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":280.81409375000004,"end":288.99846875000003,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":287.26034375,"end":310.86846875000003,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":310.63221875,"end":339.01596875,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":334.89846875,"end":335.32034375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":339.06659375000004,"end":348.16221875,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":348.02721875000003,"end":350.42346875000004,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":350.30534375,"end":355.45221875000004,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":355.35096875000005,"end":360.27846875,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":359.89034375,"end":384.93284375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":385.45596875,"end":401.94284375,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":394.43346875000003,"end":395.17596875000004,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":401.65596875,"end":411.32534375,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":411.32534375,"end":424.77471875000003,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":413.99159375000005,"end":415.13909375000003,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":424.13346875,"end":426.95159375000003,"speaker_score":0.97},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":425.38221875000005,"end":455.82471875000005,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":456.60096875000005,"end":460.16159375,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":460.56659375000004,"end":470.72534375000004,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蔡署長玲儀","start":471.18096875000003,"end":481.25534375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":477.96471875000003,"end":487.88721875000005,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蔡署長玲儀","start":487.88721875000005,"end":507.39471875000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蔡署長玲儀","start":507.78284375000004,"end":516.3047187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蔡署長玲儀","start":516.65909375,"end":518.8359687500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蔡署長玲儀","start":519.4265937499999,"end":525.5690937500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":524.3034687500001,"end":524.35409375,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":525.5690937500001,"end":528.5390937500001,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":531.54284375,"end":549.83534375,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":549.97034375,"end":555.75846875,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":556.31534375,"end":563.03159375,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":563.21721875,"end":570.49034375,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蔡署長玲儀","start":572.1272187500001,"end":603.12659375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":603.83534375,"end":611.04096875,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蔡署長玲儀","start":611.04096875,"end":611.1084687499999,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蔡署長玲儀","start":611.44596875,"end":626.34659375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":626.34659375,"end":632.77596875,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"侯副處長善麟","start":633.65346875,"end":646.84971875,"speaker_score":0.994},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":647.1028437500001,"end":652.89096875,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"侯副處長善麟","start":653.1440937500001,"end":653.6672187500001,"speaker_score":0.994},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":653.1609687499999,"end":654.03846875,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"侯副處長善麟","start":653.9878437500001,"end":655.74284375,"speaker_score":0.994},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"侯副處長善麟","start":656.0634687500001,"end":656.6372187500001,"speaker_score":0.994},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"侯副處長善麟","start":657.39659375,"end":664.5347187500001,"speaker_score":0.994},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":661.4128437500001,"end":662.45909375,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"侯副處長善麟","start":664.9397187500001,"end":666.0872187500001,"speaker_score":0.994},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"侯副處長善麟","start":666.7453437500001,"end":667.65659375,"speaker_score":0.994},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"侯副處長善麟","start":668.3315937500001,"end":671.7234687499999,"speaker_score":0.994},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"侯副處長善麟","start":672.01034375,"end":674.30534375,"speaker_score":0.994},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":675.2165937500001,"end":715.1765937499999,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":715.3115937500002,"end":741.4340937500001,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":741.7209687500001,"end":781.32659375,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":781.8159687500001,"end":798.20159375,"speaker_score":0.937},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蔡署長玲儀","start":798.9609687500001,"end":801.57659375,"speaker_score":0.967}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.854,"end":8.455,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請部長有請王部長王委員好部長好 部長我要請問你碳費的問題我們碳費5月正式開徵那今年的碳費收入你們預估是45億對不對那原來你的預估其實是要年增60億那這短少的15億將近25%到底是為什麼"},{"start":33.246,"end":44.394,"text":"因為其實每年要看企業申報的量那我是不是請我們署長來報告對 你可不可以讓大家知道說你這短差的15億為什麼跟原來預期的目標少了25%"},{"start":46.25,"end":63.03,"text":"我們碳費的目的其實是要求是在減量所以在制度設計上有兩種優惠費率一個是用標竿的方式那如果企業提自主減量計畫他會用試用100元的費率另外一個是對其國際以科學減量基礎的SBI"},{"start":63.632,"end":80.732,"text":"那很嚴格那他就適用50元的費率那原先我們在估的時候我們是估大概可能沒有到這個九成會提自主減量計劃那也沒有那麼高的適用這個50元的費率可是當去年整個制度正式上路之後"},{"start":81.152,"end":95.588,"text":"其實有超過九成的這些工廠它是提了自主減量計畫而且有六十幾個廠它提的是用五十元的費率所以也造成整個估算可以收到的是四十五億"},{"start":96.209,"end":107.859,"text":"好就是因為九成的企業提了自主減量計劃所以導致這個收益少了15億嘛低於你原來的估算那所以我們要檢討的就是你的這個企業自主減量計劃到底有沒有真的達到"},{"start":114.364,"end":118.926,"text":"企業減碳的效果你這個減量計畫是不是企業說了算了因為現在環團有指出來你現在的企業自主減量計畫現在有三大的缺失我們可以來討論一下就是說你到底你的嚴謹度怎麼樣第一個就是他其實並沒有設定出中長期的這個"},{"start":136.274,"end":160.865,"text":"減量的目標那減量的路徑也缺乏科學依據跟數據的支撐他的執行成效難以量化評估這個是第一個第二個他缺乏透明監督的機制也就是企業自主減量計畫他缺乏內部查核機制跟第三方的驗證規劃資訊揭露不夠即使透明難以確保"},{"start":164.606,"end":184.781,"text":"減量數據的真實性第三個缺失是他欠缺具體減量的措施因為這個環團指出來就是計畫這個是過於籠統沒有明確列出他的設備更新因為設備更新也是非常的重要能源轉型或者是製程改良的技術細節與預計投入的成本"},{"start":187.603,"end":192.169,"text":"就是這三大缺失我要就教部長你自己有看到這樣一個問題嗎因為原本在國際上面他對於這個碳費的徵收他一個有效的工具是他可以逐步去調高他的碳費"},{"start":203.704,"end":222.775,"text":"碳費的調升是一個有效的工具但是你們環境部已經講了我們不採取碳費的調升我不曉得是現在不調升還是未來都不會調升你採取的是企業自主減量計畫但是你的自主減量計畫如果是如此的鬆散企業說了算"},{"start":224.375,"end":245.064,"text":"這個跟你未來預計要達到的成效恐怕會出現很大的落差部長你自己有看到這個問題嗎好包委喔這個我在產業界待過很吃到這個情形我不認為這是你說的三個缺失因為第一個有沒有減量目標他必須承諾2030年有沒有達得到這是白紙黑字他達不到就要回到300塊的減量的額度所以具體目標是一定要做的"},{"start":245.444,"end":265.323,"text":"那透明監督呢這個計畫我們經過大家一起溝通能夠開放的就開放全世界對於這種探聽價台灣算是開放的最多的你不能所有的企業他做了什麼樣的小事情有些是跟他的這個敵對對手的競爭力是有關的那他其實該放的我們就會放你放在哪裡"},{"start":266.796,"end":287.371,"text":"網站上面啊都有公告嘛都有公告都有公告在你的碳費專區都有公告出來是沒錯沒錯那第三個呢簡單說是他一定要列那列金融專家審查審議過這是由本部聘請的專家審議過才能夠確定那審議的內容有沒有包括環團指出來的設備更新能源轉型或製程改良的技術細節當然這個有沒有這麼的詳細"},{"start":288.792,"end":309.838,"text":"我從來很相信基本上我跟委員報告這個對我來說這個是一個企業運轉的機密我們會掌握到企業運轉的機密我都要求他們要簽這種所謂的保密的原則來做這個事因為這個如果說某一家敵對的對手知道對方做什麼事這個會影響到競爭力的所以不能夠所有都公開因為這裡面有一些企業營運的機密在裡面"},{"start":310.998,"end":316.28,"text":"我們當然不要求公開但是我覺得部長你好像輕忽了這樣的一個現象當有九成的企業他要採取的是自主減量然後你們也選擇退讓你們不要調升碳費的時候你真的覺得你這樣的一個碳費你現在的收價的制度未來跟國際可以接軌嗎你未來有調升的能力嗎還是說遇到企業一反彈的時候事實上環境部就是退讓"},{"start":339.23,"end":359.426,"text":"包委員這個不是像你這樣講的深不深是要看我們目前執行的狀況今年五月才會收到第一筆的碳費那你什麼時候再評估要不要調升我們基本上今年說完之後我們可能明年可以來討論明年後年的這個事情所以你是會每年去檢討的還是你現在政策是傾向就是不會調升"},{"start":360.126,"end":384.742,"text":"基本上這個會是因為當時這個決定碳費的時候有一個目標要調整的目標但是我們後來在執行的時候也發現說這樣的透過一個國家訂成一個價錢這是不符合市場機制的所以我們更傾向用這個ETS總量管制的排放交易這樣的做法新制度來的做法能夠把企業真實的碳定價反映到成本上面這是我們期待的做法"},{"start":385.512,"end":410.583,"text":"事實上台灣現在的做法因為我們剛上路喔那我看到的就是恐怕你環境部想要達到的目標很難達成喔因為你光是一年你的60億就達不到了喔那未來之前你們還預估說什麼百億喔我想這個應該是非常難喔不會不會委員你不能這樣說因為他企業願意撿的更多他要花更多的錢這是我們的目標不是我們收了很多的錢從企業上面拔毛不是這個樣子的"},{"start":411.343,"end":424.775,"text":"好部長這只是你的說辭啦齁那這個我已經看到你今年已經打了25%了啦就是你已經打折了跟你原來預估其實已經不一樣了未來這個其實也是看綠啦齁接下來我要講的是"},{"start":426.997,"end":443.488,"text":"接下來我要講的是你的這個一個是這個碳費不如你原來預期的成效第二個是你的碳封存這個也是環境部一個很重要的計畫你們設定了一個非常理想的目標2030年176萬噸2032年400萬噸2035年600萬噸這個目標非常的理想但是呢到目前為止今年"},{"start":456.736,"end":467.008,"text":"是零動工沒有任何一個廠就是有順利動工的那請問如果以現在是零的情況底下2030、2032、2035的這個目標可以達成嗎"},{"start":472.198,"end":484.151,"text":"其實本來碳補作後封存它就是需要一個比較長的時間去規劃跟建置而且也必須要當然啊所以我現在要問你的就是你今年一個廠址都沒有你2030會有176萬噸的這個碳封存喔"},{"start":488.235,"end":506.698,"text":"我們今年已經有核准通過中油公司的在苗栗鐵珍山的一個封存試驗計畫那它的目標是會存30萬噸那當然這是一個試驗計畫那另外這個碳補作後封存其實在2030年還會包括一個碳補作後的利用這個也都會算進來"},{"start":507.859,"end":528.104,"text":"所以你要在這邊掛保證2030年可以達到176萬噸的目標這個是旗艦計畫的目標我們會跟各部會共同努力那你現在要不要下修你的目標因為這個是跟著整個國家檢探系目標的這個其中的因為你說苗栗的這一個我們就來看今天忠友是不是也有代表來"},{"start":532.231,"end":550.626,"text":"來苗栗的這個計畫是中有負責的你說苗栗這個我們就來看一下就是苗栗現在的這個鐵砧山的計畫事實上苗栗已經2012年就有一個曾經有過一個計畫然後就是沒有辦法施行那現在2023年這個鐵砧山的計畫現在"},{"start":556.371,"end":569.365,"text":"中東景縣長呼籲中央為取得地方信任不得動工我請問一下這一個場址會動工嗎進度如何預計什麼時候完成"},{"start":572.108,"end":584.992,"text":"跟委員報告這個場址他目前封存的設施都已經做好了但是我們在經審查核准的時候也有很多的要求他必須要做各項的環境監測然後其實中油公司他有架設這個即時監測的這些資訊會跟當地居民來溝通那我們也要求中油公司在真正灌注之前還會再跟地方來辦理說明會"},{"start":595.056,"end":595.798,"text":"所以我們在審查當天其實苗栗縣政府也沒有同意我們在整個審查的這些意見"},{"start":603.931,"end":632.509,"text":"所以這個場址什麼時候就是可以開始運作已經沒有已經排除了地方的聲音了嗎當然這個都是要持續資訊公開透明而且要跟居民做溝通那因為他現在還有包括其他相關的法規的這些準備工作要去進行所以詳細的這個確定的時程還是要中油公司來做說明那中油公司要不要回答這個場址你預計什麼時候運作會不會胎死腹中又沒有辦法運作"},{"start":633.677,"end":646.757,"text":"澳委員這個依照計畫的部分是現在在走這個法規的一些行程如果法規的流程走完了才可以實質凍控但是剛剛環境部說明的部分硬體設備已經完成了"},{"start":647.148,"end":674.057,"text":"那你們原來的目標預計什麼時候完成可以實質的進行碳封存原來的目標因為有法規的這個是不是符合法規以及環評的問題所以這個你們沒有目標有有有原來設定應該是在去年或是今年應該有一個硬體設備完成這個是OK的但是運作的部分取決於法規是不是許可"},{"start":675.247,"end":700.26,"text":"好 這個就是我要講的到目前為止我們看到這個碳封存的計畫目標寫得非常的漂亮但是現在連這個官員的回答都不敢明確的回覆這樣子的一個是不是可以達到跟地方政府的溝通而且可以符合法規而且可以正式上路在這樣的情況底下我們設定的目標那根本就不可能達成"},{"start":701.54,"end":720.652,"text":"連一場到現在都沒有真正的完成我要提醒環境部的是減碳其實是重中之重當我們提到氣候變遷提到很多問題國際上唯一的目標就是要減碳那無論是我剛剛提到的碳費你的整個徵收你現在已經低於你原來的目標還有你"},{"start":722.233,"end":740.985,"text":"念茲在茲的碳封存你連封存廠現在的第一廠都沒有辦法完全的確定下來這個都是增加了很多這個不確定性因素而你原來的設定目標可能會往下降所以我要提醒環境部是所有計畫訂定不能只是"},{"start":741.806,"end":748.412,"text":"看起來很美好但是你是要實質去做的當你發現實質有些困難的時候就要回過頭來修正目標而且要不斷的去檢討怎麼樣才是最有效的措施你需要透過強力的執行就像今天部長你說現在是各部會各行其事未來還要有一個設立一個中心來做跨部會但這些都不能只是紙上談兵啊"},{"start":767.43,"end":791.876,"text":"這些真的要認真去推動各部會有配合的責任但是從環保署到環境部我覺得環境部在減碳這件事情上面你們責無旁貸你們就是主管機關你們要去要求其他單位無論怎樣就是要配合環境部相關的政策這樣子才是而不是遇到壓力的時候啊這個經濟部最大然後就退讓然後就回來就是在做修正"},{"start":792.297,"end":795.023,"text":"我希望環境部要有這樣的決心我們的減碳才會達到實質的成效謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:46:17.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:46:18.174000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請彭部長。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-22T10:46:18.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:46:18.234000+08:00","text":"有請彭部長。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:46:18.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:46:18.414000+08:00","text":"王委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:46:18.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:46:18.534000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:46:18.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:46:19.295000+08:00","text":"部長，我要請問你碳費的問題，碳費5月正式開徵，你們預估今年的碳費收入是45億，對不對？對。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:46:19.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:46:20.455000+08:00","text":"原來你的預估其實是要年增60億，這短少的15億將近25%，到底是為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:46:45.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:46:50.210000+08:00","text":"因為其實每年要看企業申報的量，我是不是請我們署長來報告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:46:51.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:46:56.394000+08:00","text":"對，你可不可以讓大家知道這短差的15億，為什麼跟原來預期的目標少了25%？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長玲儀","start":"2026-04-22T10:46:58.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:47:18.535000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，碳費的目的其實是要求減量，所以在制度設計上有兩種優惠費率，一個是用標竿的方式，如果企業提自主減量計畫，它會適用100元的費率；另外一個是對齊國際以科學減量基礎目標（SBTi），那很嚴格，它就適用50元的費率。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"蔡署長玲儀","start":"2026-04-22T10:47:19.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:47:47.588000+08:00","text":"原先我們在估算的時候是預估可能不到九成會提自主減量計畫，也沒有那麼高的比例適用50元的費率，可是當去年整個制度正式上路之後，其實有超過九成的工廠是提了自主減量計畫，而且有六十幾個廠提的是用50元的費率，所以也造成整個估算出來可以收到的是45億。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:47:48.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:48:08.705000+08:00","text":"好，就是因為九成的企業提了自主減量計畫，所以導致這個收益少了15億，低於你原來的估算，所以我們要檢討的就是你的企業自主減量計畫到底有沒有真的達到企業減碳的效果，這個減量計畫是不是企業說了算？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:48:08.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:49:16.761000+08:00","text":"因為環團有指出現在的企業自主減量計畫有三大缺失，我們可以來討論一下到底你的嚴謹度怎麼樣：第一個，它其實並沒有設定中長期的減量目標，減量的路徑也缺乏科學依據跟數據的支撐，其執行成效難以量化評估，這個是第一個；第二個，它缺乏透明監督的機制，也就是企業自主減量計畫缺乏內部查核機制和第三方的驗證規劃，資訊揭露不夠即時透明，難以確保減量數據的真實性；第三個缺失是它欠缺具體減量的措施，因為環團指出這個計畫過於籠統，沒有明確列出它的設備更新（其實設備更新也是非常重要）、能源轉型或是製程改良的技術細節與預計投入的成本。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:49:19.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:49:22.827000+08:00","text":"就這三大缺失，我要就教部長，你自己有看到這樣一個問題嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:49:22.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:49:45.890000+08:00","text":"原本在國際上對於碳費徵收有一個有效的工具，就是可以逐步調高碳費，碳費調升是一個有效的工具，但是你們環境部已經講了，你們不採取碳費的調升，我不曉得是現在不調升，還是未來都不會調升？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:49:46.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:49:59.797000+08:00","text":"你採取的是企業自主減量計畫，但是你的自主減量計畫如果是如此鬆散，以企業說了算，這跟你未來預計要達到的成效，恐怕會出現很大的落差。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:50:00.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:50:01.157000+08:00","text":"部長，你自己有看到這個問題嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:50:01.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:50:36.482000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我在產業界待過，很知道這個情形，我不認為你說的是三個缺失，因為第一個，有沒有設定減量目標，它都必須承諾2030年能否達得到，這是白紙黑字，它達不到就要回到300塊減量額度，所以具體目標是一定要做的；至於透明監督，這個計畫經過我們大家一起溝通，能夠開放的就開放，全世界對於這種碳定價，臺灣算是開放最多的，你不能針對所有的企業做了什麼樣的小事情，有些是跟它敵對對手的競爭力是有關的，其實該放的我們就會放，第三個……","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:50:36.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:50:37.323000+08:00","text":"你放在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:50:38.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:50:39.116000+08:00","text":"網站上面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:50:39.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:50:40.057000+08:00","text":"都有公告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:50:40.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:50:41.418000+08:00","text":"都有公告、都有公告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:50:41.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:50:42.859000+08:00","text":"在你的碳費專區都有公告出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:50:42.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:50:44.020000+08:00","text":"是，沒錯、沒錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:50:44.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:50:52.466000+08:00","text":"第三個簡單來說，它一定要列，並經由專家審查、審議過，這是由本部聘請的專家審議過，才能夠確定。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:50:53.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:50:58.751000+08:00","text":"審議的內容有沒有包括環團指出來的設備更新、能源轉型或製程改良的技術細節？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:50:58.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:50:59.371000+08:00","text":"有沒有這麼詳細？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:51:00.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:51:21.818000+08:00","text":"當然很詳細，基本上，我必須跟委員報告，對我來說，這是一個企業運轉的機密，我們會掌握到這部分，我都要求他們要簽所謂的保密原則來做這件事，因為如果某一家敵對的對手知道對方做什麼事，這是會影響到競爭力的，所以不能夠把所有的都公開，因為有一些企業營運的機密在裡面。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:51:22.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:51:27.280000+08:00","text":"好，機密我們當然不要求公開，但是我覺得部長好像輕忽了這樣的現象，當有九成企業要採取的是自主減量，而你們也選擇退讓、不要調升碳費的時候，你真的覺得這樣的碳費，以現在的收價制度未來可以跟國際接軌嗎？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:51:27.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:51:27.640000+08:00","text":"你未來有調升的能力嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:51:27.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:51:28.280000+08:00","text":"還是說遇到企業一反彈的時候，事實上環境部就是退讓？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:51:51.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:52:00.077000+08:00","text":"報告委員，不是像你這樣講的，升不升是要看我們目前執行的狀況，今年5月才會收到第一筆碳費。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:52:00.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:52:02.158000+08:00","text":"你什麼時候再評估要不要調升？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:52:02.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:52:07.382000+08:00","text":"基本上要今年收完之後，我們可能明年可以來討論明年、後年的事情。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:52:07.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:52:11.406000+08:00","text":"所以你是會每年去檢討，還是你現在的政策就是傾向不會調升？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:52:12.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:52:36.722000+08:00","text":"基本上，因為當時決定碳費的時候有一個要調升的目標，但是我們後來在執行的時候也發現，透過國家訂一個價錢，這是不符合市場機制的，所以我們更傾向用ETS總量管制的排放交易這種新制度的做法，能夠把企業真實的碳定價反映到成本上面，這是我們期待的做法。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:52:37.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:52:53.679000+08:00","text":"因為我們剛上路，事實上次臺灣現在的做法，我看到的就是環境部想要的目標恐怕很難達成，因為今年光是60億就達不到了，之前你們還預估說什麼百億，我想這個應該是非常難喔！","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:52:53.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:53:02.563000+08:00","text":"不是、不是，委員，你不能這樣說，因為企業願意減得更多，它就要花更多的錢，這是我們的目標，不是我們收了很多的錢，從企業上面拔毛，不是這個樣子的。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:53:03.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:53:06.706000+08:00","text":"好，部長，這只是你的說辭啦！我們……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:53:07.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:53:15.234000+08:00","text":"我看到今年已經少了25%，你已經打折，跟你原來預估的數字已經不一樣了，未來其實也是堪慮……","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T10:53:15.234000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T10:53:16.234000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個不能堪慮，我再澄清一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:53:16.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:53:34.507000+08:00","text":"接下來我要講的是，首先你的碳費不如原來預期的成效，第二個是你的碳封存，這也是環境部一個很重要的計畫，你們設定了一個非常理想的目標：2030年176萬噸、2032年400萬噸、2035年600萬噸。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:53:34.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:53:59.008000+08:00","text":"這個目標非常理想，但是到目前為止今年是零動工，沒有任何一個場有順利動工，請問如果以現在是零的情況底下，2030、2032、2035的目標可以達成嗎？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"蔡署長玲儀","start":"2026-04-22T10:54:04.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:54:10.184000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實本來碳捕捉後封存就是需要一個比較長的時間去規劃跟建置，而且也必須要辦理環境影響評估。","quality":0.681},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:54:10.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:54:16.071000+08:00","text":"當然、當然，所以我現在要問你，你今年一個場址都沒有，2030會有176噸的碳封存？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"蔡署長玲儀","start":"2026-04-22T10:54:20.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:54:31.449000+08:00","text":"我們今年已經有核准通過中油公司在苗栗鐵砧山的一個封存試驗計畫，它的目標是會存30萬噸，當然這是一個試驗計畫。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"蔡署長玲儀","start":"2026-04-22T10:54:31.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:54:38.698000+08:00","text":"另外，碳捕捉後封存其實在2030年還會包括碳捕捉後的利用，這個也都會算進來。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:54:39.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:54:44.960000+08:00","text":"所以你要在這邊掛保證2030年可以達到176萬噸的目標？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長玲儀","start":"2026-04-22T10:54:44.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:54:48.021000+08:00","text":"這個是旗艦計畫的目標，我們會跟各部會共同努力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:54:48.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:54:51.462000+08:00","text":"你現在要不要下修你的目標？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長玲儀","start":"2026-04-22T10:54:51.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:54:55.703000+08:00","text":"因為這是整個國家減碳新目標其中的一項措施。","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:54:56.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:55:00.104000+08:00","text":"因為你說到苗栗的這個計畫，我們就來看，今天中油是不是也有代表來？","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:55:04.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:55:39.843000+08:00","text":"苗栗這個計畫是中油負責的嘛，我們就來看一下，苗栗現在這一個鐵砧山的計畫，事實上苗栗在2012年就曾經有過一個計畫，就是沒有辦法施行，至於2023年這個鐵砧山的計畫，現在鍾東錦縣長呼籲中央，為取得地方信任不得動工，我請問一下，這一個場址會動工嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:55:39.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:55:40.324000+08:00","text":"進度如何？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:55:40.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:55:41.345000+08:00","text":"預計什麼時候完成？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長玲儀","start":"2026-04-22T10:55:44.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:56:07.798000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個場址目前封存的設施都已經做好了，但是我們經審查核准的時候也有很多要求，它必須要做各項環境監測，其實中油公司有架設即時監測的資訊，會跟當地居民來溝通，我們也要求中油公司在真正灌注之前，還會再跟地方來辦理說明會，所以我們在審查當天，其實苗栗縣政府也沒有……就是說同意我們在整個審查的這些意見。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:56:15.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:56:20.114000+08:00","text":"所以這一個場址什麼時候可以開始運作？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:56:20.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:56:23.656000+08:00","text":"已經排除地方的聲音了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長玲儀","start":"2026-04-22T10:56:23.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:56:38.165000+08:00","text":"當然這個都是要持續把資訊公開透明，而且要跟居民做溝通，因為現在還有包括其他相關法規的準備工作要去進行，所以詳細的確定時程還是要中油公司來做說明。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:56:38.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:56:40.166000+08:00","text":"中油公司要不要回答？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:56:41.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:56:42.247000+08:00","text":"這個場址你預計在什麼時候運作？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:56:42.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:56:44.489000+08:00","text":"會不會胎死腹中又沒有辦法運作？","quality":1},{"speaker":"侯副處長善麟","start":"2026-04-22T10:56:45.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:56:58.737000+08:00","text":"報告委員，依照計畫的部分現在在走一些法規的行程，如果法規的流程走完了才可以實質動工，但是剛剛環境部有說明，硬體設備已經完成了。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:56:59.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:57:04.630000+08:00","text":"你們原來的目標是預計什麼時候完成，可以實質進行碳封存？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"侯副處長善麟","start":"2026-04-22T10:57:06.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:57:13.493000+08:00","text":"因為有是否符合法規以及環評的問題，所以這個部分……","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:57:13.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:57:14.533000+08:00","text":"你們沒有目標？","quality":1},{"speaker":"侯副處長善麟","start":"2026-04-22T10:57:14.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:57:26.037000+08:00","text":"有、有、有，原來設定應該是在去年或是今年要有一個硬體設備完成，這個是OK的，但是運作的部分取決於法規是否許可。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:57:27.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:57:48.458000+08:00","text":"好，這個就是我要講的，到目前為止，我們看到這個碳封存的計畫目標寫得非常漂亮，但是現在連官員的回答都不敢明確地回復，這樣子是不是可以達到跟地方政府的溝通，而且可以符合法規並正式上路？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:57:48.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:57:56.862000+08:00","text":"在這樣的情況底下，我們設定的目標根本就不可能達成，連一個場到現在都沒有真正的完成。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:57:57.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:58:38.811000+08:00","text":"我要提醒環境部，減碳其實是重中之重，當我們提到氣候變遷的很多問題，國際上唯一的目標就是要減碳，無論是我剛剛提到的整個碳費徵收現在已經低於你原來的目標，還有你念茲在茲的碳封存，現在連第一場封存場都沒有辦法完全確定下來，這都增加了很多不確定性因素，而你原來設定的目標可能會往下降，所以我要提醒環境部的是，所有計畫訂定不能只是看起來很美好，而是要實質去做的，當你發現實質有一些困難時就要回過頭來修正目標，而且要不斷地去檢討怎麼樣才是最有效的措施，你需要透過強力的執行。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-04-22T10:58:38.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T10:59:27.023000+08:00","text":"就像今天部長說現在是各部會各行其是，未來還要設立一個中心來做跨部會推動，但這些都不能只是紙上談兵，真的要認真去推動，各部會也有配合的責任，但是從環保署到環境部，我覺得環境部在減碳這件事情上面，你們責無旁貸，你們就是主管機關，要去要求其他單位無論怎樣就是要配合環境部相關的政策才是，而不是遇到壓力的時候，經濟部最大，然後就退讓、就回來再做修正，我希望環境部要有這樣的決心，我們的減碳才會達到實質的成效，謝謝。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-22T10:59:27.523000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T10:59:30.380143+08:00","text":"好，謝謝王育敏委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-22T10:59:30.680143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T10:59:33.823000+08:00","text":"接下來請蘇清泉委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}