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並有兩個"},{"start":2122.714,"end":2147.333,"text":"在委員會提出的修正動議及機關先行提出的建議條文均請各位參考現在開始進行協商那第三條本日有新增修建意見一案請議事人員宣讀本日新增修正修正意見一"},{"start":2148.956,"end":2175.435,"text":"提案人委員黃珊珊第三條的修正內容為第六款第六款修正後文字內容為特定非公務機關子關鍵基礎設施提供者供應事業或特定財團法人及受政府控制之事業團體或機構第七款修正後文字為關鍵基礎"},{"start":2177.576,"end":2198.955,"text":"設施指實體或虛擬資產系統或網路其功能一旦停止運作或效能降低對國家安全社會公共利益國民生活或經濟活動有重大影響之餘經行政院定期檢視並公告之領域第八款修正後文字內容為關鍵基礎"},{"start":2201.574,"end":2229.242,"text":"設施提供者此為運貨提供關鍵基礎設施全部或一部經中央目的事業主管機關指定並報行政院核定者徵訂第十款以及第十一款文件內容為時受政府控制之事業團體或機構此全序部依公務人員退休資遣撫恤法第七十七條第一項第二款第三目及第四目公告之事業團體或機構"},{"start":2231.782,"end":2253.412,"text":"據資通安全重要性並經中央目的事業主管機關指定者第十一款危害國家資通安全產品此經主管機關認定對國家資通安全具有直接或間接造成危害風險影響政府運作或社會安定之資通系統服務或產品宣讀完畢"},{"start":2255.9,"end":2263.269,"text":"謝謝那個剛剛志恩所說各黨團都有溝通過那現在還有修正動議是不是請那個黃珊珊委員先來"},{"start":2267.678,"end":2288.007,"text":"謝謝召委我想這個案子對立法院來說應該是非常重要在這個研會的時間我們希望在研會期間就能夠讓這個案子通過那主要是在4月24號召委已經排審了那中間經過了非常多次然後每次院會都說要協商一直等到現在那當然謝謝召委今天在座協商那"},{"start":2288.707,"end":2312.216,"text":"內容剛剛提出來的部分就很清楚的就是書發部跟民眾黨團這邊也都溝通過所以這個文字我們的修正動議跟機關建議的文字基本上是大同小異應該沒有什麼太大的差別主要是把受政府控制的事業團體跟機構依照所謂全序部的相關辦法相關規定裡面的機構事業或團體這個也是應該要納入的"},{"start":2314.657,"end":2338.508,"text":"那另外一個就是針對危害國家資通安全的產品除了機構跟人之外其實還有產品的部分我們也希望納到資通法裡面所以這兩塊說法部應該都沒有意見了所以我想這個內容我們希望按照我們今天的修正動議跟機關建議條文相同的地方我們認為說是希望能夠今天就能夠通過然後送出去謝謝好 博焱委員"},{"start":2344.937,"end":2371.62,"text":"因為我剛好有稍微對過一下文字但是可能姐姐請事務發布再確認一下看起來文字跟這一個機關現在進行的條文應該是完全一模一樣的那應該沒什麼問題因為最主要我記得那時候要保留第10跟第11的時候是因為10本來有這一個轉投資等等的那一個把它拿掉了然後第11的時候那一個定期的那一個公佈的那一個現在把它拿掉了所以我想說是不是再確認一下如果沒有問題的話這樣聽起來好像雙方是有高度共識"},{"start":2372.441,"end":2394.086,"text":"我這邊還有一個小問題就是說書法部可以稍微回答一下這我不堅持就是說因為第11款本來有這一個定期要公告等等之類的那現在把這個拿掉那拿掉之後這一款其實就變得有點其實它放不一定要放在這一個法規的層級但是如果要放在這邊也沒有什麼不妥但是就確認一下就可以了謝謝OK那是不是請書法部"},{"start":2395.519,"end":2420.393,"text":"跟趙偉跟兩位有人報告所以我們剛才對了一下文字大概只有一個字小小的差異但是我們覺得無傷大雅就是第六條的最後面的第六款的部分特定廢物 公務機關指的是特定參加人之後民政黨團的建議是即受政府控制是事業團體或機構那我們的原來超入的文字是或但是我們覺得兩個都可以所以應該沒有差別這樣子對"},{"start":2423.715,"end":2440.146,"text":"只有一個他禍跟幾道法律效果都一樣就是兩個都會包括在內都要包括在內所以應該是沒有問題那至於剛才這個省委員所垂詢的有關於這個危害自動公關安全產品的"},{"start":2441.246,"end":2461.73,"text":"是不是他要有一個情資分享或相對的這樣的一個措施讓各機關能夠知道什麼是危害職工安全產品這個我們在後面的11條有授權辦法來訂定所以我們在這定義的條文的部分我們就不處理這樣跟委員做報告所以蘇華部的意思是照黃珊珊可以的好"},{"start":2476.609,"end":2491.642,"text":"或是貨比較廣的話那我們應該是採取書發部這樣子大家都可以拿進來急的話就可能好像有一點怪怪的那我們就以書發部的文字吧以書發部的為主好那第三條就照書發部的修正動議通過"},{"start":2494.925,"end":2523.582,"text":"第三條照協商條文通過OK那再來第十條第十條柏養跟珊珊有沒有什麼意見蘇華部那就可以沒問題蘇華部這個有跟這個國民黨團也溝通過有溝通過好第十條那就照協商條文通過那再來第十一條有沒有意見"},{"start":2525.956,"end":2555.502,"text":"沒有第11條沒有意見因為最主要當時在這個委員會的時候有提到說希望能夠犯罪修法理由那現在看起來應該也有犯罪修法理由的一個提示應該就沒什麼問題OK 那就好 照書畫部是 謝謝少偉書畫部有什麼意見嗎沒有沒有好那就第11條照協商條文通過"},{"start":2559.151,"end":2585.358,"text":"再來第25條第25條有沒有意見25條就是當初有提到說第三項部分的原來的受調查者要更明確一點那我們就按照委員提示改成當事人跟過關系人那把範圍限定下來這個也跟國民黨團的委員報告過了好OK那第25條就照寫上條文通過好現在再介紹那個葛如君委員"},{"start":2589.298,"end":2601.475,"text":"好那現在第32條第32條大家有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":2609.011,"end":2624.512,"text":"那個葛禄君委員看一下現在32條看有沒有意見這個是把我們前面加的那個反人團體加進來而已所以演練集合是之前沒有的嗎沒有意見那個沒有意見 葛禄君委員32條沒有意見"},{"start":2632.133,"end":2649.828,"text":"好 謝謝主席那第32條的部分也感謝速發部參採本席的版本那入主管機關得委託其他公務機關法人或團體去辦理這個自動安全整體防護演練集合"},{"start":2650.709,"end":2679.768,"text":"那國際交流合作以及自動安全事務本席要希望能夠再次強調就是自動安全的防護其實很怕自己說自己做得很好政府部門左手雞和右手說自己沒有問題只有納入外部的專業意見才能徹底檢視公務機關的自動安全防護是否足夠那在本席就再次感謝速發部參採本席的修法版本謝謝"},{"start":2681.509,"end":2691.833,"text":"OK那沒有意見好OK那第32條就照寫上條文通過好好"},{"start":2708.769,"end":2710.71,"text":"我們立法院黨團協商結論要補充"},{"start":2735.862,"end":2749.649,"text":"謝謝主席那我稍微比較晚到有一個原因也是我想速發部也了解今天早上10點鐘在這個中研院召開了算是台灣年度的資安盛會"},{"start":2751.13,"end":2775.329,"text":"那我想今天這個算是我們台灣很重要的資安算是我自己把它稱作資安日為什麼因為有一個資安盛會我們又有資通安全法的審理但是還是很不好意思這個時間形成上所以主席是不是能夠讓我稍微說明一下我們在第三條條文這裡的一些想法跟意見如果還有機會last minute再稍微做一點調整或參採的話也許我們還可以再做一些討論"},{"start":2779.833,"end":2802.036,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我想這個第三條的部分本條有關法的這個本法的用詞定義最主要是針對第一項第九款的特定財團法人也就是本法的適用範圍到底涵蓋哪些財團法人這是這一次修法的關鍵條文那按照正常的程序"},{"start":2802.797,"end":2826.316,"text":"部會進行修法之前我們其實是希望能夠部會要來完成影響性的評估也就是說條文修改了如果納入了新的或者未來可能有個空間有任何人可以點菜點餐就把任何一個外部的機關就納入這個條文來做管控的話那其實應該是要非常謹慎的"},{"start":2827.637,"end":2850.43,"text":"不過本席辦公室有數次向抒發部來索取這個所謂影響性的評估修法以後這個第三條新增納管的財產法人清單到底有哪些會被納入進來但是得到的答覆卻次次不同我們當然理解各個不同的黨團其實都有各自的立場跟意見但是立場意見"},{"start":2851.511,"end":2876.788,"text":"如果纳入进去了那到底有谁会受到影响谁在未来可能会被一只手指头就把它纳入进来那以速发部六月份提供给我们的政府直接或间接控制的财团法人列表为例当时表列当中像是公平交易委员会的财团法人多层次传销保护基金会交易部的财团法人中华民国私立学校"},{"start":2881.431,"end":2906.523,"text":"管理委員會還有金管會的財團法人中華民國會計研究發展基金會以及衛福部的財團法人歐巴尼紀念基金會等等在訴發部前兩天所提供的列表當中又不見了那到底是訴發部沒有精確的掌握本法修法以後所新增納管的主管機關還是這份財團法人列表本來就初一十五的經常性的在變動"},{"start":2907.603,"end":2934.697,"text":"距離這個速發部六月提供的資料還不到兩個月的時間結果新舊資料又有差異直通安全的管理範圍如果真的是初一十五變來變去的話那到底各個機關各個單位又要如何來因應呢可能會無所適從就會變成我們一開始的擔憂是什麼我們這個修法如果通過了任何一個人或任何一個機關或任何一個部會拿一個清單來點一點"},{"start":2937.009,"end":2958.382,"text":"說一說手指頭指一下這個機關就變成了資通安全法的手可以伸進去的範圍當然我們是以保護跟安全為主體但是在這個過程當中可能有很多的資料調查資安的調查資訊的交付等等那這個手如果伸進去"},{"start":2961.121,"end":2983.311,"text":"這個單位沒有辦法有相關的這個機制準備甚至是這些單位是不應該有這樣子的一個繁複流程的那我們初一十五這樣子改變真的好嗎可能會令這些未來可能會又被新增納管的財團法人事業機構無所適從那如果財團法人法"},{"start":2984.051,"end":2999.28,"text":"的納管範圍是屬於經常性變動的狀態本席認為應該是審慎評估是否新增資通安全管理法第3條第9款亦或是回歸到現行法以預算法來界定適用範圍還是比較妥當"},{"start":3002.56,"end":3027.469,"text":"再者還是要來表達一下因為以速發部前兩天所提供的最新納管列表來說現行條文以下是會納管165個財團法人那預計第三條第九款修法以後將減少納管25個財團法人新增納管6個財團法人總共剩下146個財團法人但是好像減少了對吧但是檢視條文的內容並沒有"},{"start":3030.53,"end":3058.997,"text":"賦予主管機關或目的事業主管機關排除的法源依據那這比用一個手指頭點菜更糟啊變成是另外一隻手指頭再點一點有一些就可以排除了到底這個法源依據在哪裡這個清單是不是有誰說了算難道我們這樣修法過了以後這根手指頭就掌握在特定的機關部會手上嗎"},{"start":3060.077,"end":3085.512,"text":"那最令本席擔憂的是目前速發部提出新增納管的六個財團法人是依據對各部會進行問卷調查以後金管會正面回覆認為這六個財團法人有必要納入資通安全管理法當中並不是修法以後只新增這六個財團法人在這裡也分享給主席也分享給我們其他的黨團的同仁"},{"start":3087.557,"end":3110.988,"text":"這個清單 就是第三條的這個清單在未來有可能會變來變去新增 想增就增 想刪就刪那迄今我們一直詢問書發部到底具體會被這一次修法影響的財團法人的名單確定下來的有誰如果今天按照書發部的建議版本通過"},{"start":3112.355,"end":3136.749,"text":"或者是按照誰如果我們這個版本沒有很細緻的去處理或者其他黨團我們如果有一些地方沒有很明確的設定好變成是空白授權的話就真的很危險那我們也覺得速發部原始的建議版本確實是有點不完備那當然這個我們還是要稍微來回覆去看一下"},{"start":3137.429,"end":3156.625,"text":"那本席要再次强调自动安全法的管理的售纳管的范围绝对不可以初一十五天天在改变如果有例外比如说新增的财团法人就是他是刚成立的那当然新增进来没有问题依据他的合理的条件可是如果已经存在甚至存在已久的"},{"start":3157.225,"end":3181.748,"text":"可以由一個人或者一個特定的單位去點菜點餐那這其實是非常非常危險的對於大家的資訊安全所謂的安全還有分安心嘛那所以這個我們會有點擔憂到底有哪些財團法人會被納管進來建議還是回歸到現行法等到速發部和相關部會徹底搞清楚納管名單以後"},{"start":3183.058,"end":3200.547,"text":"我們是不是再來確認第三條這是為什麼我這個從這個資安的年度盛會這個一路這個快馬加鞭那趕過來我就是希望還是要來表達一下對第三條真的要非常的謹慎非常謹慎"},{"start":3202.808,"end":3222.133,"text":"另外第三條第一項的第十款是本次在協商當中新增的在委員會審查的時候其實我們是沒有放入條文當中其實也比較沒有經過委員會的討論我想影響性的評估就要非常仔細審慎了"},{"start":3223.593,"end":3243.546,"text":"那我们是因为自己非常关心所以我们求慎重有向抒发部来确认依据这个第三条第一项第十款的写法是说公务人员退休之前抚恤法第77条第一项第二款第三目以及第四目公告的事业团体或机构"},{"start":3245.327,"end":3258.283,"text":"經過中央目的事業主管機關指定者這個就叫做那一隻手指頭用文字來描述那一隻手指頭而且那一隻手指頭是誰的手指頭呢叫做中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":3259.725,"end":3288.12,"text":"所以中央目的事業主管機關的意思還不是只是速發部還不是只是速產署是全部的中央的政府只要有任何的目的事業主管機關都可以增加指定那到底有哪些事業哪些團體機構會被資通安全管理法納管我們是到現在沒有辦法得到任何具體的明確的因為如果我們這真的是按照這個寫法"},{"start":3290.307,"end":3297.737,"text":"去用公務人員退休之前撫恤法第七條第一項第二款第三目及第四目的這個範圍只要是"},{"start":3301.754,"end":3323.399,"text":"這樣子的範圍列出來的並經中央目的事業主管機關指定者那就是點菜就是點餐有人來抗議了說我不想要被這個處理那就打個電話處理一下或者聯絡一下手指頭再指一下劃掉是不是就變成不被指定者了"},{"start":3324.279,"end":3344.545,"text":"所以我想依據速發部所提供的清單其實我們現在就非常擔憂因為裡面已經有很多地方政府所投資經營或管轄的事業團體或機構會被納入資通安全管理法當中但我們理解資通安全是要來幫忙防護的但是如果一旦"},{"start":3345.871,"end":3363.869,"text":"這一隻手被利用了被利用作為資料的搜查調查系統的這個搜查調查其實很多資訊自由的部分就會被暴露個人隱私的部分可能就會被暴露任何的電腦系統手機"},{"start":3366.092,"end":3378.554,"text":"都有可能因為自動安全法被沒收裡面有多少的Excel有多少的Document有多少的檔案就有可能被沒入被解釋"},{"start":3379.878,"end":3401.913,"text":"这一点我们也还是要表达忧心当中已经有被纳入的是台北市政府投资的续产运销公司花卉产销公司 渔业运销公司台中市政府投资的渔市场公司肉品市场公司 果菜运销公司桃园市政府投资的渔市场公司"},{"start":3402.794,"end":3426.724,"text":"其實也不分藍綠啊還有高雄市政府苗栗縣政府榆林縣政府彰化縣政府等等地方所經營的公司或投資的公司這些公司真的有需要納入資通安全法來管理嗎範圍又在哪裡是不是任何一個理由說啊你們這個同仁有誤觸這個釣魚的這個信件我們要來做一點資安稽查調查"},{"start":3428.675,"end":3447.427,"text":"手是不是就可以伸進去這其實就有可能會引發中央與地方政府權責上的紛爭這些問題早在審查會裡面就有很多的委員提出那速發部其實是沒有積極的針對我們的疑慮加以釐清那反而又增加了這個所謂的第十款"},{"start":3448.207,"end":3467.279,"text":"所以我想這樣子的這個擔憂那我想可能還是要這個希望如果我們這個疑慮已經在這個先前的調整當中已經完全適宜了那是不是或者是這個疑慮其實也還沒有消解這根手指頭還在"},{"start":3468.98,"end":3482.399,"text":"是不是還有機會請主席讓事務發布簡要的做個說明可以嗎謝謝國務卿委員那個他剛才本來是同歸但是他有一個意見事務發布是不是說明一下"},{"start":3485.034,"end":3503.406,"text":"謝謝昭偉跟各位報告我們先第9款開始第9款我們首先先跟各位抱歉因為我們在盤點的過程中的確各個裁判法人他們主管機關前後來的資料是有不一致的情形所以我們有經過重新的整理"},{"start":3504.066,"end":3524.025,"text":"最後各位剛才提到的那是的確是最後目前盤點到數字現行的是165個修法後納管的是146會減少25個增加6個那6個都是金管貴的這6個是之前我們大概就跟各位報告過都是非常重要的包括聯合徵信公司這個"},{"start":3525.947,"end":3553.403,"text":"期貨交易人保護中心保險事業發展中心汽車交通事故特別補償基金住宅地震保險基金以及保險安定基金這些都是具有全國性而且它雖然政府捐助在50%以下但是他們所掌握的資料都有相當的職工安全的重要性我們要跟委員報告就是說我們現在第9款的部分採取院所提出來的條文"},{"start":3553.983,"end":3577.098,"text":"並不是要增加主管機關權限而是預算法之後財團法人法又做過修正所以我們完全是按照財團法人法第二條第三條以及這個相關的規定來做意思是說他不是主管機關不管是行政院或書發部可以任意改動的他完全要按照法律的構成要件來法律構成要件沒有的那他就沒有辦法"},{"start":3577.938,"end":3598.433,"text":"完全是因為因應財團法人修正我們並沒有打算要增加主管機關的權限但是我們也附帶跟委員報告一下就是說委員提到就是說如果按照現行的條文我們在行政機關部分也可以接受但是我們有徵詢過執政黨團跟民眾黨團的意見他們都比較贊成說按照新的財團法人法的構成要件來辦理"},{"start":3599.854,"end":3622.317,"text":"這是第一個跟委員報告的第十款的部分跟委員報告這是當初在委員會討論的時候民眾黨團認為說除了現行財團法人之外有某些受政府控制的事業團體或機構他讓他如果具有相當的自通安全的重要性的話恐怕還是必須要有一個方法可以納管"},{"start":3623.237,"end":3651.099,"text":"所以我們在跟民眾黨團這個委員這個報告之後溝通之後也覺得說如果他有當然就是剛剛委員有提到有很多實際上在自動安全上面沒有重要性的其實是不應該放進來的所以我們就按照例如跟這個CI的例子是很一樣的就由目的事業主管機關來決定他在自動安全上面有沒有重要性如果有重要性的話"},{"start":3653.421,"end":3680.899,"text":"就納管進來所以這個條文我們大概經過民眾黨團給我們的意見之後我們認為民眾黨團修正案我們在實務上面是具有可行性的而且在自動安全的防護上面也有必要性所以我們採納這樣的意見當然就是說我們也懇請就是說自動安全法真的是非常非常重要的一個法律那攸關我們國家自動安全我們覺得說三黨大概都已經有朝野大概都有相當的共識"},{"start":3681.719,"end":3704.799,"text":"在可控的範圍之內可控的範圍之內我們會建議說是不是可以採納各黨的意見所以我們今天才提出這建議的條文大概都有跟三兩行報告過我們行政機關也可以接受而且實務執行上面坦白跟委員報告我們做自動防護其實資源是非常有限的委員是行家知道我們一定會把"},{"start":3706.681,"end":3735.681,"text":"自動安全的資源放在最有效的部分我們站在行政機關立場絕對不會任意的擴張到自動安全防護的範圍之外一定是在自動安全有重要性的狀況下才來做所以基本上就是我們說財政法人法部分我們是按照財政法人法的規定來修正但是回到現行的條文我們也可以接受第十款部分民眾委員給我們的指教我們覺得在實務上面具有一定的重要性而且它有主管機關作為控管的"},{"start":3736.041,"end":3747.726,"text":"控管範圍那在我們自動安全的資源上面重點的投入我們覺得在實務上面也應該是可以辦得到的所以在這樣的情況下我們覺得可以接受這樣的修正條文那懇請委員來支持"},{"start":3754.233,"end":3781.872,"text":"謝謝主席我想也謝謝次長我可不可以再稍微做個回應謝謝謝謝主席精簡重點我想次長您剛剛講的話我們都有全國直播也都有記錄我們其實非常擔憂的就是所謂的目的事業主管機關是不是真的可以自主控制我們已經在非常多的質詢裡面看到了昨天"},{"start":3783.596,"end":3786.406,"text":"連獨立機關中選會都可以說不得已"},{"start":3787.501,"end":3812.302,"text":"特定挑选特定的日期那其他的主管机关又如何说像您刚刚说的相信我们不会怎么怎么做所以我们还是觉得因为现在看起来这个刚刚第一项第十款其实是有绑定到公务人员退休抚恤法第七条第一项第二款跟第四目第三目跟第四目这是可以指定的"},{"start":3813.042,"end":3828.974,"text":"這個指定就是可以加進來或是刪除而且這隻手是賦予了主管機關而且沒有任何的制衡機制它也不需要先知會比如說我們現在在這裡協商我們相信速發部因為我們有這樣子的共識我們有經歷這樣的過程速發部有足夠的專業來認定這個我們也理解"},{"start":3833.897,"end":3862.688,"text":"可是也沒有任何一個程序我就確認一下這個跟主席接連我就確認剛剛你們講的這個指定的這件事目的事業主管機關指定有沒有需要經過速發部的確認有沒有任何一個制衡的機制這一點現在的法律上是沒有的法律是要保護人民的法律是要保護群眾的法律不是說我訂了以後請人民相信我們我們會好好做就好了"},{"start":3864.283,"end":3876.639,"text":"那這樣我們也不用討論這些法啦你們就不用問啦我們就相信你啊 你們就自己去做就好啦這一點是不是可以請抒發部再做個回應就是說這個有沒有一個制衡機制在裡面 謝謝先那個黃珊珊委員"},{"start":3878.749,"end":3899.017,"text":"我想格魯居委員講的這個東西主要還是要把程序都搞清楚嘛所以這是全責的問題所以主管機關應該要把說明清楚因為黨團在討論這件事情的時候其實速發部也有說明他們將來你們還是要做相關的施行細則或者是相關認定的標準跟機制這個部分是不是一次說清楚"},{"start":3899.537,"end":3928.307,"text":"我覺得這個他的疑慮也是大家的疑慮的話我覺得不應該在我們保留出去之前沒有產生共鳴我覺得還是要講清楚說明白那個可能書畫部剛你提到的就是說葛珠京委員講到的是手指頭就可以指定那你講的是財團法人法第二條第二項跟第三項等就是說他有法定那是不是就這個部分說明清楚"},{"start":3929.48,"end":3945.759,"text":"第一個就是第9款的部分的確我們是按照財產法人法的要件來的第10款的部分就剛才葛委員說目的世界主管機關是不是愛指定什麼就指定什麼其實我們是不反對說就讓我們速發部來做過濾我們會在試驗室的訂就他指定之後要報來我們這邊同意這個是沒有問題的"},{"start":3955.424,"end":3969.385,"text":"或者是說我們其實在這邊加文字就可以如果因為這是民眾黨團也有提案要黃委員這邊同意就經中央物業水管機關指定並經主管機關同意者這樣我是不是OK的"},{"start":3973.206,"end":3993.143,"text":"好 謝謝市長的回應因為我想 我還是同步一下我想大家都很清楚這個近期的一些不管是民眾安全還是資訊安全有非常多的不管是人民或公僕他可能電腦系統 手機系統 檔案"},{"start":3996.486,"end":4008.651,"text":"數位檔案它會隨時被各種理由搜查甚至被解釋那這個我想這個我想主席可能也很清楚未來不管什麼政黨都有很多未來的縣市長"},{"start":4010.134,"end":4036.446,"text":"那我覺得我們剛剛講的是第十款第十款呢其實就是它綁定的是公務人員退休之前撫恤法第七十七條第一項第二款第三目跟第四目在這兩個條目裡面寫的就是說會被資通安全法第十款影響的這隻手可以伸進來的這個第十款會影響到的"},{"start":4037.708,"end":4065.398,"text":"事業團體或機構事業團體或機構是只要在這個工人員撫恤法的這個裡面去主管事業目的事業主管機關指定就可以那我剛剛已經念了很多台北市府的啦台中市府的啦桃園市府的啦還有高雄高雄市府的苗栗雲林彰化所以這些底下只要有投資經營或管轄"},{"start":4066.997,"end":4090.334,"text":"或管轄喔而且不是只是事業喔還有團體喔還有機構喔只要一隻手指就可以增加或刪減沒有任何人可以制衡它那現在次長很正面啦我們也都有直播也都有組織稿紀錄是說要用細則來處理我覺得我謝謝訴發部願意承擔這個責任因為我覺得至少我們現在治安法的對口"},{"start":4091.676,"end":4113.835,"text":"主管機關就是速發部如果你們沒有一個這樣子的一個機制去制衡的話那任何一個目的事業主管機關都有一隻手指頭那還得了啊所以我自己個人還是覺得這個第三就這個部分我還是傾向保留那等到細則有個方向出來"},{"start":4114.716,"end":4138.875,"text":"否則我覺得這樣子我們等於是開了一個空白支票給一堆手指頭有可能因為一點點的我們有聽到這個資安事件你們有人點了一個釣魚的email我們覺得你們這裡的資安不夠好伸進去我覺得你們的用戶名單用戶名冊誰的用戶名冊肉品市場果菜運銷"},{"start":4141.183,"end":4169.241,"text":"這個你們的檔案有沒有被入侵我們要查你們的電腦查你們的人員的手機確保是安全的這個是我們擔憂的啦那這個真的不是政治攻防喔這個是保衛資訊自由保衛人身安全保衛數位的權益 謝謝謝謝 我是這樣建議啦就是大家參考看看剛那個葛禄君委員講到的就是說細則要出來"},{"start":4170.051,"end":4198.733,"text":"那可能會比較久那我這樣建議就是說你那個剛講的寫在說明欄裡面要把它寫清楚就是說葛如君委員覺得這個有疑慮的在說明欄把它寫清楚那就是包括你們要訂定在細則裡面就把它寫在我們這個說明欄裡面那就是說原來照我們原條文通過那是後面說明欄把葛如君委員這個問題全部都把它寫在說明欄裡面"},{"start":4200.1,"end":4226.597,"text":"這樣好不好我們其實我們承諾說我們訴法部會負起這個責任來那就是重要目的事的主管居然指定的那要經過我們這邊統一那這我們會可以在這個適應細則來定那我們這個就如委員所講的這個是這個全國民眾都公開直播可以看到我們做這樣承諾我們也願意在立法說明裡面把它說清楚"},{"start":4228.165,"end":4249.377,"text":"好 就是那邊把它寫清楚好 謝謝也還是很感謝正面回應但我講一個具體的狀態好不好就是說我們要了很多次這個到底誰被第三條影響要了很多次都不一樣名單都不一樣這是第一個第二個是假設現在是有這個指手指的這個狀態進來"},{"start":4251.238,"end":4275.843,"text":"中央目的主管事業目的這個主管機關進來點了我舉個例子我們點一個比如說台北市政府的這個漁產運銷股份有限公司說有資安疑慮我們要調查可是因為這是台北市政府可能有投資或管轄的台北市政府認為我想黃珍珊委員也當過這個縣市的這個副市長嘛"},{"start":4276.994,"end":4281.745,"text":"那如果縣市政府覺得有疑義 有摯愛"},{"start":4283.373,"end":4307.023,"text":"那只能跟抒發部說抒發部你可不可以不要手伸進來這沒問題你們不要亂扣帽子或者我這裡還有高雄市政府我唸給主席聽高雄銀行股份有限公司高雄果菜運銷股份有限公司高雄肉品運銷股份有限公司岡山漁市場股份有限公司港督汽車客運股份公司"},{"start":4308.809,"end":4334.67,"text":"這些啊 隨便就可以指定喔隨便都可以 我還可以繼續唸喔我還可以繼續唸喔我還可以繼續唸台南喔 台南麻豆漁市場股份有限公司新營漁市場股份有限公司嘉里漁市場股份有限公司南營農產國際行銷股份有限公司這些是全部只要有一個資安異議所有的數位資料就可以進來調查"},{"start":4336.775,"end":4361.812,"text":"那你說那縣市政府或未來的縣市政府如果有異議那現在大家都在聽嘛這些單位的人也會覺得說那以後我覺得我沒問題啊我們自己內部有資安管控啊我們已經處理完了抒發部或主管機關覺得不行我要進去那怎麼辦這個漢格如果有漢格的話"},{"start":4362.895,"end":4375.274,"text":"抒發布局對喔 這個要來處理喔而且那個盧前委員等一下那個珊珊委員再講那個抒發布他要改那個你說的疑慮等一下那個黃珊珊委員有意見讓他先講"},{"start":4379.169,"end":4406.573,"text":"剛剛聽完就是說相同地方政府真的滿多這種東西的所以它的主管機關應該還是地方政府是不是在地方政府跟蘇發富的權限中間要有一個什麼機制這個機制是讓主管機關也可以你說真的說那天肉品市場跟漁市場到底這個資安有什麼疑慮的確好像有一點小不是那麼嚴重的國安問題但是可能還是要尊重一下地方政府的主管機關的意見"},{"start":4407.213,"end":4428.573,"text":"那是不是在處罰部這邊可以用什麼樣的機制說在類似地方政府的主管的相關的部分能夠有一些尊重地方政府的機制中央的部分也是我們立法的主要原因因為太多就是花外之地然後不受管控所以我們民眾黨提案的原則原則當時是希望針對中央主管的相關機關"},{"start":4429.714,"end":4450.015,"text":"但是我說地方政府像這種根本不會影響到太多的國家安全的部分我覺得其實是可以尊重地方政府的職權是不是在這上面你可以寫一些地方主管機關有意見的部分你們才能夠插手也就是說國務局委員一直說那隻手指頭不應該都只有一個人一個地方"},{"start":4450.615,"end":4479.462,"text":"那這個我覺得我們蠻同意的地方政府畢竟他是民選政府所以他應該有他自己的一些管轄而且地方政府說實在碰到中央的重大的資安危險我覺得也沒有那麼多所以是不是可以在這中間找到一個平衡點那這樣我覺得這樣可能是可以達到但中央的機關民眾黨還是希望都能夠納入管理不要再聽主管機關因為主管機關只要說不行反而就不行的話這不是我們立法的原因但是地方政府的部分我們是不是可以找到一個平衡點謝謝"},{"start":4480.595,"end":4505.27,"text":"OK 那個葛如君委員跟黃珊珊委員講的有道理啦那但是那個書畫部要怎麼樣修改然後來就是他們的疑慮來解除是不是跟謝昭偉就容許我們現在就把文字寫出來給各位看那地方政府的部分要經過地方政府條文跟說明欄位都要我們就條文不動就按照這個民眾黨團的"},{"start":4507.951,"end":4524.928,"text":"說明欄位沒有法律效力你條文要因應但是當然條文可以精簡但是說明欄位完整一點條文還是要有我們寫出來包括涉及地方的權限可能要遵循地方政府的意見如果召委同意的話給我們一點點時間我們趕快寫"},{"start":5227.522,"end":5246.187,"text":"剛剛協商的結論第3條第10款說政府控制這事業大大大那個都跟原來一樣那到最後呢最後再加入就是並經主管機關核定者"},{"start":5247.663,"end":5262.993,"text":"然後受地方政府控制者應經地方主管機關同意後主管機關時的核定那就是盧軍委員剛提到的這個地方政府的疑慮我們就在這裡明文把它規定這樣好不好"},{"start":5264.045,"end":5285.74,"text":"好 那第三條就照協商條文通過好 那個第11條的部分我可不可以因為也是牽涉到地方政府我是不是可以簡要的表達一下簡要好不好謝謝其實第11條就是因為有危害國家自動安全產品的可以做清查但是這裡面的範圍"},{"start":5288.422,"end":5302.559,"text":"對 我們找到了這個所謂的縣市政府的這些委外營運場所或自行或委外的場所光台北市就有200多個地方高雄可能也很多那我們不反對要去做這樣的清查為了我們國家安全跟自動安全"},{"start":5306.463,"end":5321.648,"text":"但是光台北市230個委外營運場所光一個台北小巨蛋就包含在裡面有多少螢幕 喇叭還有很多的設備還有很多老人中心養護中心 運動中心全部涵蓋在內我們不是說不能清查"},{"start":5322.088,"end":5345.63,"text":"而是說中央修一個法如果地方要去清查這些人力的成本你也不能找人去亂查你也不能裡面的人自己去隨便查那這樣有查跟沒查也一樣嘛這顯然也不是這個目的所以本席是不是可以建議速發部能不能有一個比如說資源的挹注或者是如有需要可以提出"},{"start":5347.432,"end":5360.979,"text":"讓這個中央來做一些協助否則到時候要清查可是他沒有人力 沒有資源也沒有知識或這個相關的資訊去清查反而又會造成這個所謂的執行上的困難啦"},{"start":5361.579,"end":5380.212,"text":"好那這個我們也是在幫不分政黨的這個不是政治攻防這個真的是在協助我們在地方自治上未來有這麼多的縣市長還有這麼多光台北市一個200多個場館那一個小巨蛋有多少個設備要清查人力時間還有資源謝謝好那蘇化部"},{"start":5385.663,"end":5411.068,"text":"這個法是將來是本部是主管機關了就是如果各機關有需要資源不管資源還支援這個本來就是由我們統籌來調度那我們非常贊成各位的意見就是說我們可不可以在說明欄去說主管機關應提供必要的這個支援或支援或協助可以嗎因為這個就不是法條的問題了這樣子"},{"start":5420.193,"end":5445.118,"text":"好了 執行的部分當然就不列入法內嘛那就在說明欄上說清楚就好沒人在支援跟支援說要什麼我理解啦 理解剛剛第三條是因為有侵害權益啦我覺得這個入法條比較重要這個是怕做不好那我覺得看用什麼方式是用附帶決議比較好還是用說明欄的方式這個大家表達一點意見好不好 謝謝"},{"start":5446.909,"end":5464.204,"text":"那就說明欄把它訴說清楚我們就在說明欄的2原訂定本條最後那如果有需要主管機關應提供必要的支援與協助這樣好不好我們可以把它寫出來好"},{"start":5467.404,"end":5490.575,"text":"現在我們宣布協商結論協商通過條文第3條第10條第11條第25條及第32條如附件其餘均照審查會審查結果通過條次引述條文部分文字及原影條次授權醫事人員整理"},{"start":5492.549,"end":5497.034,"text":"這樣OK好好大家沒有意見那我們今天會議到此結束謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}