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抱怨會我們現在繼續開會卓院長各位列席閣員早安我們今天要進行行政院提出全額撥付一百一四年度對地方政府之一般性補助款及原住民族地區基本設施維持費等相關事宜專案報告並被質詢首先我們請行政院卓院長報告"},{"start":1822.111,"end":1847.334,"text":"韓院長 江副院長各位委員先進今天行政院再度應邀到大院來專案報告全額撥付114年度對地方政府之一般性補助及原住民族地區基本設施維持費等相關質疑並被質詢"},{"start":1848.922,"end":1877.907,"text":"以下請提出行政院的報告內容首先我想表示的是一滴水匯流成一條小河一條小溪到一條大的河川甚至匯流到一個中央的水庫水庫的水才能用它的支流分散到所有的地方去這是自然的現象"},{"start":1879.409,"end":1907.566,"text":"這也是物理的原則今天我們在這裡討論的也是一樣人民辛苦經營累積交給政府的稅金行政院依照各個正式的需求提出各項的預算內容編制成每個年度的中央政府總預算送到大院"},{"start":1909.042,"end":1937.169,"text":"來做審議審議之後除了中央各部會來執行我們也才能把它依照各項政務的需求補助給需要的限制以及財力較差的限制這就像一個水庫水必須讓支流出去一樣但如果這個源頭的水沒有了減少了"},{"start":1938.683,"end":1963.355,"text":"那麼會造支流出去的水當然就會減少當然就會造成各個實際需要面的不足在這樣的理念之下我首先向大院說明的是今年8月14號行政院依照預算法的規定"},{"start":1964.933,"end":1990.496,"text":"辦理了114年度中央政府總預算追加預算其中包括一般性補助636億元以及原住民保留地 進法補償提升國軍待遇加強外交執行量能等項目就是期待我們有更多的水源能夠回到這個大水庫裡面來"},{"start":1993.24,"end":2013.186,"text":"我們就能夠依照原有的流向方式跟流量去到各個需要的地方去這是一種自然的巡迴這也是預算編制審議使用分配一套唯一的標準"},{"start":2014.349,"end":2041.679,"text":"我期待各位委員能夠大力支持預算盡速審議通過讓各項施政中央與地方都能夠順利推行地方政府所需的補助款經費也可以全數儘快的撥付這次行政院向大院提出的這次中央政府部署的一般性補助預算案能夠獲得解決的唯一的解方"},{"start":2043.22,"end":2067.564,"text":"一般性補助款的刪減起因於大院審查114年度中央政府總預算要求通案刪減數一個刪減的額度不得低於939億但實際上依照所列的各幾項的條款內容方式能夠刪減的只有303億"},{"start":2069.349,"end":2092.557,"text":"因此大院要求行政院自行調整刪除636億造成了實際上的自愛難行重大的原因有兩項第一個是這樣的規定以及這樣的執行違反憲法的權力分立以及責任政治的原則"},{"start":2093.84,"end":2114.724,"text":"行政院編列預算 立法院審議預算這是憲法之所規定重要的是權力分立的原則不容破壞大院要求行政院自行刪減高達636億餘元但行政院在一般的期待費用已經被刪減了1439億"},{"start":2117.386,"end":2144.601,"text":"要再刪減這636億實在是找不出空間實在是無法執行造成了執行政策上相當大的困擾因此各部會無所遵循也因此就沒有辦法確立了責任政治的重大原則同時嚴重違反預算法第49條的規定"},{"start":2147.145,"end":2176.253,"text":"這是我們的困難第二項困難要行政院自行刪減金額過於龐大而且從未與行政院進行徵詢或協商今年度中央政策總預算遭大院審議之後刪減的1439億當中尤其是針對一些特定項目的巨額的刪減那更是"},{"start":2177.517,"end":2188.741,"text":"以前到現在所沒有發生過的如大陸地區旅費3-80%國外旅費及出國教育訓練費3-60%媒體政策及業務宣導費用3-60%特別費3-60%甚至部分機關完全刪除對業務的推動運作造成相當大的衝擊"},{"start":2201.294,"end":2229.43,"text":"此外再度要求行政院自行3-636億元實在是難上加難尤其將對國防外交以及教育政策造成更嚴重的影響因此行政院提出了復議也提出了釋憲我們已經窮盡各種的方法來補救但是未見有轉圜之地幾經橫著之下我們只能採取唯一"},{"start":2230.287,"end":2254.362,"text":"不得不的措施就是拙減地方的補助款讓中央地方能夠共體時間這所謂補助款的精神是依照財政收支發封法第30條及地方制度法第69條為了全國各地方均衡發展中央對於財力較差的地方政府拙於補助"},{"start":2257.452,"end":2282.251,"text":"因此這一次大院刪減中央政府總預算我們不得不統一性的刪減各縣市的一般性的補助款25%這是我們公平一視同仁的一種做法去年也就是8月30號我們核定各縣市政府一般性補助款時也已經續名"},{"start":2284.195,"end":2304.032,"text":"如果立法院審議結果有所刪減將依其審議結果配合調整因此114年度一般性補助款刪減條件636億元並沒有違背相關的法令做出這個不得不的決定中央跟地方"},{"start":2305.168,"end":2334.057,"text":"同時要共體時間我們也橫著過地方政府的財政長年以來中央是多力的協助近年中地方政府整體的債務下降財政也從短處轉為剩餘這是事實對於財政狀況較差的縣市比如苗栗縣我們知道他沒有任何舉債的空間所以"},{"start":2335.216,"end":2362.104,"text":"我們也已經以特統這款來電借9.3億元這個已經收到了苗栗縣已經收到了對重大的地方建設中央該支付的國道的任何興建維護中央政府全額負擔比方昨天去苗栗的兆橋交流道興建25、6億中央全額負擔這沒有問題"},{"start":2363.737,"end":2386.614,"text":"但是連他連接造橋交流到未來的縣道2.6億 中央也全部負擔我們知道很多的建設無法推遲很多財力較差的縣市無法負擔中央就會橫著各種狀況來與地方共同完成"},{"start":2388.621,"end":2413.154,"text":"所以三減一般性補助是非得已但是行政院仍然會對財政困難的縣市給予高度的必要的補助在今年三減中央政府總預算的時候很多的委員都說這是行政院有史以來最高的中央政府總預算我向各位委員報告"},{"start":2414.69,"end":2439.062,"text":"因為國家經濟發展因為政策推動的需要今年中央政府總預算當中3兆1325億裡面我們有2,806億是新增事項過去所沒有如果扣掉這些新增事項再扣掉被大院所刪除的預算我們今年的預算只有去年的92%各位想想這樣能夠支應"},{"start":2445.185,"end":2473.211,"text":"因應國家經濟發展推動各項重大政策所需要的中央政府所需要的經費嗎再者編最高史上最高的預算這難道是罪過嗎這難道是原罪嗎如果是的話六都今年都是最高的預算為什麼他們的議會不會用這樣的理由來刪減他們的預算"},{"start":2475.526,"end":2502.748,"text":"唯獨大院用這樣的標準來看行政院對中央不公平對國人也不公平所以現在我們應立法院的決議跟各地方政府的需求行政院辦理的最佳預算這也是日前多位地方首長包括多位委員甚至於在總統召集的院計協商當中"},{"start":2504.562,"end":2533.551,"text":"韓院長都曾經在裡面也提過類似這樣的話我們可以用追加預算的方式來把一些預算回復這樣就能夠解決所有的燃眉之急此外對於原住民族基本設施維護費原民會114年度原編列原住民族地區基本設施維持費6.4億元我們上半年度因為這次中央政府總預算被凍結束"},{"start":2535.216,"end":2550.525,"text":"案件跟金額都非常龐大所以我們依此的狀況也凍結了該項會費費用以及其他的補助費用50%但是上半年的"},{"start":2551.943,"end":2567.25,"text":"在6.4億當中的2.9億我們到今年的8月8號已經合撥了2.5億其餘的部分我們也在今年的6月24號函請各公所提報致用計劃園民會會緊述審查後全數撥付"},{"start":2572.062,"end":2597.836,"text":"也就是6.4億元我們除了上半年度有所暫時的凍結之外我們會依照各公所所提報的自用計劃6.4億元會全數撥付沒有這個問題因為中央政府總預算在大院當中也陸陸續續的與解凍各相關的預算這就是一種必要而且理性合理的互動"},{"start":2599.397,"end":2615.565,"text":"以上報告期盼各位委員能夠理解我們提出的解方只有一項也只能是一項就是把包括636億一般性補助在內的最佳預算的總額878億請大院審議將該項預算能夠回復我們就能夠像大水庫一樣將這些源源不斷的"},{"start":2630.154,"end":2659.315,"text":"充分的而且照原來的計畫流向各縣市補助各縣市中央執行沒有困難地方執行會獲得協助在此建立中央與地方合作的傳統性的良好的模式誠懇的拜託也期待大院能夠緊述審議我們一起努力讓國人感受到政府一體合作努力謝謝大家感謝"},{"start":2667.566,"end":2679.54,"text":"謝謝卓院長的報告我們現在開始要進行委員諮詢每位委員詢答時間不得超過15分鐘輪到諮詢的委員如果不在場我們視為放棄"},{"start":2680.782,"end":2707.14,"text":"另外特別向院會說明今天依照本院職權刑事法第17條邀請行政院院長就全額撥付114年度對地方政府之一般性補助款等相關事宜進行專案報告特別要拜託所有排定的委員以專案報告之主旨與題目為範圍提出質詢"},{"start":2710.646,"end":2729.334,"text":"首先我們請城州支委員質詢吳思堯委員請準備謝謝主席有請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":2742.956,"end":2769.613,"text":"陳委員好卓院長好我今天聲音有點傻眼 敬請包容但是我今天還是要跟您討論因為行政院違法大砍或苛扣一般性的地方補助款這件事情造成地方政府在面對關稅衝擊的時候其實有很大的影響稍後我會跟院長分析跟說明為什麼地方補助款"},{"start":2770.493,"end":2783.215,"text":"跟面對應對關稅的衝擊是有相關的所以我今天的質詢內容會稍微提到關稅的部分那還麻煩院長您能夠認真看待誠懇的回答好嗎"},{"start":2785.869,"end":2803.884,"text":"因為行政院假借立法院刪減預算之名對一般性補助款行大砍之實 苛扣之實我一直在研究到底砍了哪些項目我也在推敲思考行政院到底是"},{"start":2804.705,"end":2818.962,"text":"什麼樣的心態那我去分析之後我的解釋是說行政院終究是為了一個選票為了大罷免大成功可以說是非常的高明那為什麼我會這樣說呢我麻煩院長看一下這張圖表"},{"start":2820.991,"end":2840.121,"text":"這是來自主計總處的資料關於近三年來行政院撥補地方補助款的情形其中教育補助最左邊那一欄是用來支應學校教育人事費教育設施補助費退休給付等然後另外一項第四欄"},{"start":2841.121,"end":2868.929,"text":"其他基本的支出補助是補助各地方政府的公務員警察還有消防人員的人事費辦公費及退休金等那這兩個項目這兩個項目其實砍得非常少那相對是持平的我的解讀是就不去得罪公教人員就不去得罪這個學生家長所以幾乎都沒有去動他但是相較之下院長"},{"start":2870.109,"end":2894.949,"text":"人民最有感也最能大做文章的社會福利補助砍了不少還有基本設施的補助也砍了不少但是砍得最多的那一項明顯大幅減少的是平衡預算補助是在第五欄的地方平衡預算補助2024年這筆數字是520億"},{"start":2899.482,"end":2903.148,"text":"但是今年砍了一大半以上剩下249億"},{"start":2906.851,"end":2932.792,"text":"這個數字砍了這麼多是匪夷所思當然我也可以說是居心叵測我想要請問院長您知不知道透過地方補助再去補助給中小企業的各種獎勵包括創業補助包括研發補助包括獎勵等等是放在哪個項目足記總長麻煩您直播我想請教院長院長您知道"},{"start":2933.933,"end":2960.405,"text":"這個部分透過地方政府去補助這個中小企業的一個獎勵 研發 創業是放在哪個項目嗎中央對地方的補助其中有一項在一般性補助裡面叫做爭域裁員爭域裁員就是地方政府如果他裁員有不足的時候我們用平衡的精神來爭域他的裁員我剛剛在報告當中說明過"},{"start":2961.543,"end":2977.402,"text":"過去這幾年中央與地方通力的合作中央大力協助地方政府的財政結構已經有所改善從愚促轉為盈餘有剩餘的時候你提到平衡運轉補助可是你們砍得最多的"},{"start":2978.143,"end":2997.624,"text":"也是這一項你們把透過地方的手要去補助中小企業的部分都砍了所以我為什麼一開始就說我們並沒有砍這樣的預算面對關稅的衝擊其實是有影響的你們砍了最多砍了一半以上我們並不是砍這樣的預算是爭域裁員爭域裁員是他本身財政困難"},{"start":2999.286,"end":3024.359,"text":"有漁錯的時候我們想辦法來補食他他如果沒有了那這個爭域財源就是地方財政自主健康的一個條件4月7號您邀請立院黨團朝野黨團到行政院針對關稅的議題我們有共商國事那對行政院核定的因應美國關稅提出了880億院長您還記得我提出什麼建議我講了什麼話嗎"},{"start":3027.853,"end":3039.859,"text":"當然院長你日理千機啦您不記得是很正常的我是要告訴院長我這個人從來不講場面話而且我講話也不講多餘的話我是直接講的那天我一發言輪到我發言我就跟院長說880億是不夠的"},{"start":3043.188,"end":3071.73,"text":"我也提到根據幾位產業專家講的就說這個影響評估至少是三個百分點的GDP一個百分點的GDP是兩千多億行政院根本沒有做好衝擊評估所以我們也沒有資料可以做參考那天你也很客氣的請在野黨要配合特別條例你也提到說有關非關稅壁壘的部分可能要涉及法規的鬆綁所以你也請大家配合"},{"start":3072.659,"end":3100.593,"text":"我 您記得我怎麼回應您嗎我記得那天在朝野的氣氛底下是相當針對那個議題對行政院提出的看法是採取支持的我當時有請教您 有提醒您就是說那請你是不是約束你的行政官員不要上大罷免的選講台 為什麼呢因為你一方面請在野黨來幫助你能夠通過配合這個預算特別的條例等等但一方面又罷免人家"},{"start":3101.633,"end":3117.564,"text":"我是這樣子提醒院長但是院長您當天停格了您沒有回答我這句話您沒有回答我因為這兩個不是同樣的公民團體的行動跟國家面對關稅有時間再跟院長討論這個部分院長我想請你先看一段20幾秒的影片"},{"start":3131.044,"end":3142.131,"text":"請時間暫停請時間暫停時間暫停我們再播放一下重新開始播一下"},{"start":3167.406,"end":3167.606,"text":"再試試看"},{"start":3185.203,"end":3208.656,"text":"在很多必要守住的關頭他都也沒有守住一直節節敗退我們真的想問總統你在急什麼難道這麼重大的事情臺灣社會不應該參與國會不應該監督嗎所以我也要在這裡呼籲我們的國會一定要強力的監督當政府已經喪失了替人民把關的功能的時候我們就期待國會要扮演這個角色"},{"start":3211.081,"end":3219.447,"text":"因為您認為當時蔡英文主席在說哪一位總統很急在急什麼呢她說國會要監督監督的對象是誰您記得嗎總統講這一段話"},{"start":3223.783,"end":3248.994,"text":"他的用意當然是希望說國會發揮正常強力的監督行政院行政院在做任何談判工作的時候要守住國家的立場這是2013年蔡英文主席對馬英九總統那個時候說這個福馬黑箱的受訪當年我們一起來反對這個福馬黑箱主張台灣社會應該參與主張國會應該要監督結果現在那政府跟您的團隊"},{"start":3250.034,"end":3266.353,"text":"都是以說跟美方簽有這個秘密協定唯有相關資訊都引領所以我才放這張影片讓讓您還有民進黨政府能夠回想到底在急什麼為什麼國會不能監督院長美國他先是宣布"},{"start":3267.074,"end":3282.626,"text":"日本的關稅是15%後來又宣布台灣的關稅是20%那當然賴總統跟談判團隊一直在告訴我們這個是暫時性的稅率但是我想請教院長你認為20%跟15%差距是大還是不大15跟20這兩個數字本來就有差距"},{"start":3290.483,"end":3307.735,"text":"其實是對產業有重大的影響可是當日本政府知道說這個5%是疊加上去的時候他們立刻跟美方溝通最後美方承認川普總統他簽署這個對等關稅行政命令的時候不精確這個跟這個他們7月20號兩國商談的結果是不一樣的所以後來"},{"start":3313.479,"end":3341.012,"text":"後來日本消美的商品跟歐洲歐盟一樣不會在既有的關稅上再疊加再疊加15%可是反觀台灣我們在最基本的最惠國關稅稅率上又疊加了20%所以我們是20加4是24%這是以工具機為例工具機為例是24%國人剛開始以為我們跟日本只是差了5%"},{"start":3342.433,"end":3361.485,"text":"現在差了9%那我再來請問院長請問這個5%跟9%的差距大不大呢就數字來看當然他是數字是不同的那院長請問官方有整理這個我們消滅產品的稅率跟日本的差距嗎有整理這些資料嗎"},{"start":3362.415,"end":3380.928,"text":"我們跟美國的消美的各項的農工產品我們都有詳細的數字跟其他國家的主要產品我們也會做出比較我相信你們是有做比較但是我奇怪的是為什麼7月26號之前不公開呢因為7月23號就知道日本是15%"},{"start":3382.729,"end":3400.525,"text":"8月11日行政會開記者會之前我們都看不到官方數字我們只看到民間整理的數字我不相信這個是屬於保密協議的範圍陳委員一句話政府院長記者會裡面寫得很清楚4月我們對外公開就已經講到過這一段我們只是"},{"start":3401.306,"end":3418.904,"text":"行政院在過去一段時間沒有一直重複我覺得是個別產業所受到的衝擊因為那天8月11號有提了一些我先請教8月11號的行政院記者會有說他們要爭取不要疊加關稅請問又過好多天了有沒有進度呢"},{"start":3419.963,"end":3436.483,"text":"有沒有進度這件事我是上次的報告有說過歐盟日本他們可以爭取到不疊加是因為他們簽了所謂的協議協議簽了之後他們爭取不疊加像日本也是簽了之後才知道原來他們是疊加"},{"start":3438.786,"end":3459.378,"text":"台灣跟美國之間還沒有談到協議的內容跟定案簽訂之後 照政府院長所講的我們現在第一個爭取降到合理的稅率第二個爭取不疊加謝謝院長那8月11號在行政院召開記者會的時候龔明星秘書長他就是以工具機產業這張圖表的個別產業影響評估說明他說台灣跟主要的競爭國的關稅差距9%"},{"start":3467.426,"end":3480.257,"text":"所以中高階的工具機可能會被日本及德國取代你看行政院配合民進黨的大罷免搞了一年多現在終於講實話了會被取代"},{"start":3483.266,"end":3508.778,"text":"為什麼這個資訊在過去幾個月都不能跟國人好好溝通不能跟國會報告這個一直到被質疑說是黑箱的怒火炎上加上726大罷免大失敗之後才要公開呢過去幾個月您不知道日本的關稅多少台灣的關稅多少我也不知道談判代表也不知道我們怎麼跟你講我們跟日本差多少"},{"start":3510.558,"end":3530.268,"text":"難道你過去就知道日本是15 台灣是20嗎也不知道 沒有人知道院長 我提醒的重點是說其實國人給你的壓力或國會給你壓力其實是你們對美談判的籌碼你要把國內的壓力轉化成談判的助力別的國家就是這麼做的"},{"start":3530.848,"end":3552.387,"text":"別的國家就是這麼做啦當然你看到日本韓國都這麼做但是民進黨卻一直擔心大罷免大成功會破功啊那又擔心說如果我先公布了衝擊評估那又影響選情啊所以一直就沒有就是一直保持這個隱瞞啊所以我們的感受是如此啊歐盟日本跟美國談好也是在之後的事情"},{"start":3552.967,"end":3581.434,"text":"在過去你說的民進黨支持大發明這個前提是不存在即使在那個時段裡面也沒有人知道談判出來最後的結果是如何今天也許沒有提那個部分但是我們再回到這張簡報我還發現就是韓國工具機他的最惠國關稅是0哦也是疊加上去也是15%而台灣最惠國關稅是4%再加上去24%所以還是差距很大那你們在簡報上提出來的因應措施"},{"start":3582.074,"end":3604.444,"text":"很多業者跟我們反映說杯水車型毫無幫助因為他沒有辦法降低成本就沒有辦法跟對手有競爭力這是很現實的問題院長我想請你看一下這篇聯合報的報導標題是美關稅20%已經是仁慈工具機大佬直指關鍵因素在這裡請問院長您看過這篇報導嗎你有看過這篇報導嗎"},{"start":3608.482,"end":3624.057,"text":"約略有看過相關的報導工具機大佬也就是台灣工具機暨領組建工會的這個名譽理事長許文憲以下都是他說的話美國關稅的真正意圖是要圍堵中國製造要各國去去除紅色供應鏈"},{"start":3624.937,"end":3647.598,"text":"結果台灣是連工具機的產業都是大量利用中國製造的零組件來降低成本對美國來說台灣就是紅色供應鏈的參與者跟獲利者只要沒有斷掉紅色供應鏈美國對台灣藉由關稅的制度是不會停止的送再多的台積電給美國也沒有用這是他講的話 請問您認同嗎"},{"start":3649.821,"end":3666.211,"text":"台灣就是這樣子我們更應該立即快速的強調我們的整個供應鏈的經濟安全建立起我們的民主供應鏈在過去這段時間累積下來的我們現在就要強烈的來改所以請委員支持我們把今年的預算恢復過來我們可以做更多的事情"},{"start":3666.431,"end":3689.985,"text":"那我就是說你剛剛的對應的政策有四項但完全沒有提到去除這個紅色供應鏈嘛所以應該趕快補上嘛所以當你這個地方補助款你把刪掉透過地方政府給企業的總統實際上國安策略裡面就有清楚的這一項我沒有辦法一次的講話把所有的你刪除了地方政府對企業界的補助跟獎勵這個怎麼能夠有辦法"},{"start":3700.737,"end":3702.778,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭志委員質詢謝謝卓院長 主席長 貝勳謝謝院長 喝水啊"},{"start":3723.264,"end":3748.659,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請吳思瑤委員質詢傅坤琪委員請準備謝謝主席 又請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢吳委員好卓院長 大家都辛苦了"},{"start":3749.711,"end":3777.826,"text":"過去立法院每一個會期平均依不同的主題特別都會邀請行政院院長進行專案報告行政院的態度也是國會認為有需要我們都面對監督我們也接受監督只是過去平均每個會期大概是兩次至多三次但這個會期呢寧光上個禮拜跟這個禮拜已經來立法院針對三個主題進行三次專案報告"},{"start":3778.479,"end":3796.778,"text":"我想大家真的辛苦了這個會期如果加總起來可能會有六七次以上的專案報告更不要說行政院已經宣誓為了透明公開讓國人更放心第一手的掌握訊息即便談判中的關稅"},{"start":3799.628,"end":3828.961,"text":"還在談判中但是國會邀請您還是願意來進行關稅的專案報告所以加總起來很有可能這個會期也是史上行政院長來立法院報告的新高大家辛苦了國會有需要必須向國人說明行政院配合但我也知道這個有個原因也是這次的國會是史上最長的會期所以要找很多的專案報告來能夠讓會期進行的內容更充實一點"},{"start":3830.009,"end":3854.595,"text":"你說出了一個大家應該面對但不敢面對的真相史上最長的會期委員會拿考察來電檔院會就拿卓院長的專案報告來塞時間但沒有問題我們還是讓每一個專案報告發揮它必要的正面論述的功能向社會清楚說明我們的政策我今天的主題中央財政"},{"start":3855.755,"end":3875.206,"text":"進入了史上最黑暗的階段中央財政的黑暗期唯有朝野其心才能夠解僵局這一次的中央政府總預算案是史上審查最亂刪減最多凍結最嚴的一次是前所未有"},{"start":3875.866,"end":3893.357,"text":"所以對於國家人民的衝擊也是前所未見您剛剛的專案報告裡頭不斷的提到行政院情非得已中央政府迫不得已實在是情勢所逼"},{"start":3894.358,"end":3912.155,"text":"我在這裡說我們想方設法的要讓摯愛難行成為可行吳思瑤支持民進黨團會支持三大預算案第一今天提出來的專案報告的主題追加預算我們要支持"},{"start":3912.836,"end":3939.344,"text":"第二任性特別條例擴大對於關稅衝擊產業的支持安定社會補發現金民進黨團全力支持立法院趕快來審議修正案第三個支持也就是現在正在籌編馬上要送進立法院來年的中央政府總預算案絕對不能重蹈覆轍所以我們民進黨團負責任的做好執政黨的角色"},{"start":3939.924,"end":3969.124,"text":"合理的審議嚴格的監督但也要理性的面對下一頁菩薩為因眾生為果今天為什麼有這個專案報告為什麼讓我們的中央政府總預算1月通過現在已經8月底剩下最後一季了這一個大幅的刪減就來自於這一張啊所有的惡果都來自於這個惡因啊"},{"start":3970.351,"end":3997.547,"text":"國民黨民眾黨聯手通刪939億的中央政府總預算案他創下了三個前所未見第一個自己要通刪939億但是刪不滿所以反過頭來要求行政院自行刪減636億我從議員到立委從來沒有看過立法部門刪預算要行政部門你自己來刪滿前所未見636億就是這樣來"},{"start":3999.648,"end":4016.191,"text":"第二個前所未見這過去的大半年來加害者讓中央地方政府國家人民都受害在野黨以為他懲罰的是執政黨事實上是讓國家人民都受害這一年"},{"start":4017.152,"end":4040.201,"text":"將近半年多的時間依舊讓這些受害者不斷的譴責加害對不起這些加害人不斷的譴責受害者在這半年多的總預算的攻防這些二刪二砍預算的在野黨的委員們一再的譴責受害人行政部門而且還要你們提解方"},{"start":4041.081,"end":4058.207,"text":"第二個前所未見第三個前所未見就是1月審查完畢的總預算是一個相當有效率的總預算案的審查居然可以在七八月再用一個決議案來推翻總預算的審查"},{"start":4059.227,"end":4073.406,"text":"自己推翻自己刪減的額度自己打臉自己這是第三個前所未見但無論如何我們負責任的用追加預算來提出解放下業"},{"start":4074.708,"end":4091.085,"text":"我在這裡要替行政部門來還原為了今年度的總預算案我們努力的窮盡一切的努力讓延宕49天的總預算負為審查您邀集了朝野的黨團包括韓院長我們吃了和解飯"},{"start":4092.674,"end":4118.092,"text":"希望能夠讓總預算趕快合理的期程排入審查然後大家有更餘裕的空間可以嚴格監督和解飯吃了然後呢最後是附委了可是卻壓縮史上最短的審查期間然後做了最高額度的刪減之後為了解決這個僵局總統破例的召開中華民國憲政史上第一次的院紀協調"},{"start":4119.713,"end":4142.219,"text":"就是希望為總預算來化解僵局也是總統的高度韓院長也在會議上在院計協調之後就如您所說的也是韓院長當時也就已經拋出的讓內閣用追加預算的方式來進行所謂"},{"start":4143.795,"end":4171.038,"text":"山過頭中央難以推動政務地方可能也蒙受其害所以追加預算早在院紀協調二月份的時候連韓院長都這樣拋出所以今天我們依據地方縣市首長的共同訴求也也回應了韓院長的訴求我們負責任的提入追加預算提出來你要不要再次對在野黨的委員喊話一下"},{"start":4172.384,"end":4188.52,"text":"這是唯一的解方也是行政院現在唯一能做的事情我剛剛說過只要把這些追加預算回到中央政府總預算我們就如數如期的儘快解決中央部會跟地方政府共同在現在預算執行上的困難"},{"start":4189.631,"end":4215.221,"text":"國人也期待這樣 就是唯一的解方也是最好的解方 也沒有其他解方如果不是這樣的話 地方政府他只有一用稅計證明這只有舉債 他只有準決支出但像苗栗他就沒有辦法舉債但中央政府看到了也已經率先事先就把9.3億電交給這個苗栗縣政府我們也會衡量但是我希望終究的解方就是追加預算能夠成功"},{"start":4215.441,"end":4221.253,"text":"所以這個唯一的解方也是最好的解方無論如何下一頁希望"},{"start":4222.813,"end":4245.644,"text":"立法院能夠來快速審查來合理的監督來通過這追加預算878億包括了幾筆也是在野黨委員非常關切的原住民族禁法補償的預算也包括賴總統為國軍提高了待遇包括我們要強化外交的量能還有這一次核三公投的11億的預算罷免的4億的預算還有"},{"start":4248.826,"end":4266.605,"text":"各縣市政府需求的六五六億六三六億下業而除了六三六億之外各個部會這一次因為扼砍扼山預算而蒙受的摯愛難情的業務我們一併把它提出我們再一次希望在野黨"},{"start":4267.546,"end":4292.649,"text":"合理的監督不要再為反對而反對因為這也是韓國瑜院長跟地方縣市首長共同提出來追加預算的解方下一頁您剛剛在報告的時候有提到如果說總預算史上新高就要刪減史上新高這完全是不合理的事情我來進一步來論述下一頁"},{"start":4293.97,"end":4318.801,"text":"總預算之所以會史上新高是因為經濟表現亮眼人民拚經濟有新購所以我們把財政的紅利來全民共享中央地方都共享所以確實今年的中央政府總預算案是成長了8.6%這都是正向的拚經濟的成果大家共同的成就下一頁"},{"start":4319.821,"end":4338.291,"text":"同樣的地方縣市也是史上新高的預算兩個原因第一個同樣的經濟成長地方也有稅收本身地方的稅收也成長第二個中央因為富起來我們擴大對於地方的補助碼"},{"start":4339.311,"end":4363.8,"text":"對所以受惠於經濟發展跟中央撥補地方也是史上新高讓各縣市的總預算一樣的成長以我這裡的整理114年度的總預算案各縣市政府平均成長8.2%剛剛中央是8.6%一樣都8%以上而六都我來自於首都台北市六都的成長也是高達8.03%"},{"start":4366.941,"end":4392.258,"text":"換言之經濟有成稅收增加中央地方的財政預算都成長下一頁但您說得非常好合理的監督地方議會有大砍地方政府史上最高的預算嗎並沒有我整理出來的數據因為我來自首都我就用六都的數字來說六都這114年總預算的成長來到810億"},{"start":4397.197,"end":4411.301,"text":"總成長來到8.03%跟中央的水平幾乎是一樣但是各個縣市議會合理監督沒有過當的審查各縣市議會total在增加810億的預算當中只刪減了14.09億刪減數是0.12%"},{"start":4421.482,"end":4442.717,"text":"如果說表現好的稅收成長的政府他應當是優等生反而要受懲罰這完全不合理啊我們各個地方縣市議會就非常的理性啊不論是誰多數所以地方政府刪減今年度的總預算在合理審查之下只刪減了14.09億只刪減了0.12%我們要讓國人知道"},{"start":4448.161,"end":4463.752,"text":"史上最高的預算他應當是被肯定的而不是成為他被大幅刪減預算成為元兇成為一個原罪下一頁我們再自己比一比剛剛是比地方政府現在比中央政府"},{"start":4464.652,"end":4473.981,"text":"過去馬英九執政蔡英文總統執政16年來立法院的合理監督預算平均每年刪減的預算是247億年均刪減的數字是1.189%"},{"start":4480.928,"end":4500.024,"text":"但今年藍白聯手之下我們刪減的預算的幅度來到6.6%是過去的5.5倍這是中央比中央但如果中央比地方藍白聯手的立法院刪減的預算數是各地方議會刪減預算數的55倍"},{"start":4504.901,"end":4522.946,"text":"哪裡合理哪裡正當他們以為懲罰的是民進黨結果加害了整個國家跟人民我的主張論述您同意吧非常感謝吳委員做這麼詳細的歸納有些數字過去我們都表示過"},{"start":4524.189,"end":4549.482,"text":"我們也一直認為我們也希望地方政府能夠多做一些地方建設需要的時候中央跟地方一起來合作但中央如果這個裁員都發生困難連自己部會的預算都那麼拮据的話我們如何再把這些錢拿去補助給地方所以這就是一個自然現象的表現這就是您剛說的說的大水庫這就是菩薩為因眾生為果下一頁"},{"start":4550.546,"end":4573.306,"text":"如果說中央因為這636億的不得已暫時的調整了可是現在也用追加預算補回但到底要說清楚講明白我們中央政府對於地方的照顧有縮水嗎有讓中央富起來地方苦哈哈嗎下一頁"},{"start":4574.327,"end":4592.478,"text":"這是我整理從馬英九總統到賴清德總統看到這個幅度這是中央政府對於地方政府的各種補助款的一個成長的趨勢到賴清德總統上任的2025年的這一年中央對於地方的各項補助來到一兆"},{"start":4594.279,"end":4613.252,"text":"151億是史上新高即便扣除了636億暫時被調整的也是高達9495億是史上新高所以中央沒有虧待地方政府反而幫助地方富起來下一頁總體來講如果636億當時刪減的話我們挹注地方依舊高出549億成長6.1%下一頁"},{"start":4623.058,"end":4650.071,"text":"各個縣市台北市成長8.9%桃園成長8.2%新北台中都是讓我們看到中央照顧地方是加倍跟加碼所以最後時間到了我們再一次要澄清事實預算最高是全民拼經濟有成他不應當成為刪減預算的原罪第二個中央地方都受害的我們用追加預算來"},{"start":4671.059,"end":4672.12,"text":"好 謝謝吳思堯委員資訊也謝謝卓院長備詢"},{"start":4685.97,"end":4693.474,"text":"主任長請喝水好 謝謝接下來我們請富坤崎委員質詢黃國昌委員請準備"},{"start":4715.372,"end":4741.073,"text":"院長主席這個拜託一下這個可以跟資訊室調整一下未來兩個monitor都可以看的話雙方都會比較清楚秀出來的資料我也只看單邊這問題講了已經講一年半了謝謝來我們請這個卓榮泰卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":4752.318,"end":4776.446,"text":"副委員好院長好這個卓院長經過了這一段時間全國國人的民意已經清楚的在表達希望卓榮泰卓院長這已經是立法院的第三個會期本屆的第三個會期我希望你能夠跳脫同溫層"},{"start":4779.244,"end":4806.565,"text":"不要再被同溫層一直不斷的麻醉麻醉麻醉這是離人民很遠的所有地方政府對這636億的打擊是很沉重的不要再讓自己的同溫層尤其在立法院這是神聖的國會殿堂如果你持續的 Repeat 的"},{"start":4807.953,"end":4827.79,"text":"不斷的聽魔音穿腦的給自己麻痺的童文成你會聽不到人民的聲音就如同上個禮拜五本席在這裡請教打炸的事件越打越炸去年2024年這2020年"},{"start":4835.68,"end":4858.175,"text":"八倍十倍的成長的詐騙 全國今年光上半年就已經跟去年是達標了在這種情況之下竟然法務部長還在這裡硬吹硬擠啊說我們資料不對"},{"start":4859.625,"end":4887.413,"text":"都是打炸儀錶板出來的資料不是不對 是不同統計方式不同再過來本席上個禮拜五也秀出監察院給你看的資料跟本席的資料是一樣的所以不要在這裡再來這裡做無謂的爭執本席所請教你的每一件都把數據拿出來所以不要在這裡動嘴"},{"start":4889.872,"end":4917.091,"text":"院長你是有高度的但是不要讓你的下屬來謀弊你這會離人民越來越遙遠針對今天這個636億的統三當然院長提出了追加本協會支持 但是我們"},{"start":4919.91,"end":4948.512,"text":"還是要檢討任何事情都可以檢討任何聲音院長都要聽到這個才是民主的國會您宣布統三地方25%的統籌分配款造成今年幾幾乎一年的延宕不是八個月九個月的延宕因為地方政府"},{"start":4949.824,"end":4977.667,"text":"伴追家的伴追家放棄計畫的放棄計畫這幾幾乎讓地方政府你陷入一個空轉這影響層面有多大卓院長 本席相信啊你是很善良的但是呢到底誰給你的建議我希望院長要好好去思考"},{"start":4979.33,"end":5007.201,"text":"為什麼可以這樣做怎麼能這樣做看看一般性補助款刪除各縣市25%這包括了學校的營運營養午餐老人照顧育兒津貼道路水利交通設施災害救助或重建以及各種文化的推展觀光"},{"start":5010.732,"end":5038.469,"text":"這個對人民的影響有多大那個主計長請回本席請你來本席今天是就教院長好不好就如同民進黨自己講的嘛院長難得來這裡對不對你有什麼事可以到委員會去講好不好你們的壞習慣以後不要上來本席沒有請你們上來不要一個一個跑上來所以我今天要跟院長來大家開誠布公來探討來探討"},{"start":5040.643,"end":5066.456,"text":"我們再看看民進黨怎麼說這個是民進黨直接公開認證直接公開認證這是當時在講所謂藍白三預算他都講得很清楚這張表是民進黨中央黨部做的中央法定支出一般性補助法定支出2501億"},{"start":5068.735,"end":5097.508,"text":"地方型補助2911億人民金融自己都講我們沒有刪那這個怎麼可以在所謂的統三的調整當中去把它刪了25%真的不應該來 再來所以啊因為刪了地方25%的一般性補助款變成今年地方自治只能做9個月"},{"start":5100.598,"end":5129.155,"text":"三個月不見了地方的議會完全沒有像立法院這麼靈活所以這些整個計畫跟預算的調整天下大亂我們以台中市政府為例在去年主計總署給各縣市政府8月30號就給了"},{"start":5131.462,"end":5160.248,"text":"院長你可以看到公文發的這麼清楚今年的一般性補助款118億然後竟然把它刪掉了32.4億 刪的將近29%多請問台中市政府要怎麼執政這個是中央地方政府跟政府之間長期的信賴保護原則"},{"start":5162.461,"end":5187.934,"text":"信賴保護原則一般人如你的報告講的阿的公文裡面有講中央要經過國會通過如果一般性輔助有被刪減的話可以對地方做調整 對不起國會沒有對一般性輔助有任何的刪減這跟你今天到本院的報告又不一樣"},{"start":5192.233,"end":5215.027,"text":"院長表達一下意見國會只要求行政院對636億自行調整所以自行調整行政院就執行的項目內容我們做最積極的考量做最必要的考量在所謂的一般性補助款當中有一筆錢叫做爭域裁員爭域裁員是說該年度"},{"start":5216.212,"end":5229.683,"text":"直轄市跟縣市有成長的成長率的如果沒有達到的時候我們用爭域財源來補給他也就是說這個就是本來是幫助他提高的這筆錢有990億其實當初我們認為這筆錢即使沒有的話930億當中刪掉636億一樣是足以來讓地方做各種的施政"},{"start":5241.733,"end":5268.567,"text":"所以我們也是請地方政府仿照立法院要求行政院你可以自行去調整25%院長 您又還在同溫層剛剛苦口苦聲內容在這裡啊很良善的在跟您溝通本席再說一次去年的8月31號就已經告訴各縣市政府要補助給地方的一般性補助款是多少錢"},{"start":5269.861,"end":5297.787,"text":"他們也依照行政院的公文來編列了預算也跟經過各地方議會三讀通過然後今年來實施我們也再一次的把立法院刪除的部分已經很明確的跟民進黨中央黨部所做的圖卡都講得很清楚那個法定支出是不能刪的也講得這麼清楚院長"},{"start":5298.831,"end":5324.016,"text":"不要再回去繞圈子 看看齁整個學者都在紅 不可以這樣做有一句話 8月30日那個文當中也提到如果立法院審議結果有所刪減立法院審議結果並沒有刪一般性補助款我們不要在這裡再兜圈子院長 再看一下"},{"start":5328.68,"end":5352.377,"text":"對於國家中華民國在台灣這八十年來建立的地方制度這個地方的信任院長在未來如果繼續擔任閣揆本席希望好好的修補中央政府跟地方政府的信賴關係我希望你要全力的來做"},{"start":5354.972,"end":5381.4,"text":"我也更希望未來任何人擔任院長跟立法院之間就預算審查我們能夠依照憲法跟法律精神來我們都是依照憲法跟法律精神卓院長我其實再給你一個建議你有邀我們去行政院去協商的時候每一件事大家都很圓滿也沒有讓你有事後"},{"start":5382.774,"end":5408.077,"text":"受騙上當的感覺每一件我們都依照協商的結果但是比較遺憾就是你應該更多更多更多跟立法院各黨團來協商這是本席給你非常良善的建議這一次啊 財務法的修法是只是落實憲法的地方自治"},{"start":5409.742,"end":5430.069,"text":"從中央的75 地方25改成中央65 地方35因為財務法的修法院長 民進黨講過多少次要修要修包括賴清德總統在擔任行政院長的時候也說要修"},{"start":5431.633,"end":5457.145,"text":"那本席跟國民黨團修法完成之後竟然被民進黨從中央到地方全面造謠叫做中共同路人修財政收支劃分法叫中共同路人那如果是這樣的話賴清德總統在擔任行政院長在在野黨擔任市長的時候都是同路人嗎我們看一下"},{"start":5458.92,"end":5483.973,"text":"報告委員能不能一句話你剛剛那個六十對四十四十當中有省政府的經費如果總統沒有辦法解決這個事情那我認為台灣不可能進步任何一個副政府的總統都不應該跟關聯在一起發展的這個發展方案放在一起一邊都不一樣一天只說一些話 我覺得就是不應該"},{"start":5489.195,"end":5492.317,"text":"再看一下這個擔任院長的時候怎麼說的總統跟我從來沒有反對對財務化法進行檢討只是你剛剛說的60%跟40%的比例那40當中有11%是當時省政府的業務歸屬地方現在精神是完全歸屬中央所以那個"},{"start":5511.83,"end":5525.427,"text":"沒有完全歸屬中央啦部分歸屬中央啦我們不要爭執這個好不好本席對這裡面都非常的熟認部分歸屬中央 部分歸屬地方所以這個預算本來就應該要調整"},{"start":5529.372,"end":5554.659,"text":"所以呢 精神以後所推動台灣的地方自治也是當時的賴市長說要修也是當時的行政院賴院長說要修好不好現在從總統到行政院都沒有去抗拒我們只是希望合理的來討論跟調整我們再看一下左院長的成績單左院長成績單這個 下一頁"},{"start":5561.464,"end":5587.77,"text":"這個您賴政府卓內閣是史上第一你總共中華民國在台灣總共從民國37年到114年77年當中行政院的院長提了13次的復議但您當了一年就提出了6次的復議7次的釋憲"},{"start":5591.209,"end":5619.734,"text":"六次的復議 七次的釋憲所以啊而且是拿到史上最多的總預算這個總預算如果不夠我想這一次的追加減追加預算也讓卓工泰卓院長你看到了立法院的態度是很良善的只要國家有需要你提出計畫我們都願意來支持但要合理"},{"start":5622.062,"end":5640.864,"text":"不要把一次的立法院本一職責本一職責該做的事情不要再有謠言治國 謊言政府左院長希望把心思全部放在國人身上好不好"},{"start":5641.813,"end":5658.211,"text":"大家可以來合作行政院跟所有的首長一直努力工作縱然我們更深知自我檢討但是這個努力工作的態度是一致的跟各政黨密切合作 好不好謝謝委員好 謝謝傅坤祺委員質詢也謝謝卓院長備詢"},{"start":5668.117,"end":5697.137,"text":"好接下來我們請黃國昌委員質詢質詢之後我們將會休息也跟院會報告一下今天是黃國昌委員生日我們掌聲祝他生日快樂謝謝院長來有請行政院院長卓榮泰麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":5707.953,"end":5730.345,"text":"黃元豪 祝您天天快樂卓院長 您是中華民國憲政史上手握最高年度總預算的行政院院長我必須要反映實際的人民的聲音給您拿了史上最高的預算"},{"start":5731.906,"end":5758.607,"text":"到目前為止執政的成績慘不忍睹繳不出像樣的成績單過去這麼長的一段時間從行政院的團隊到民進黨立法院黨團全體台灣人民聽到的只有六個字大罷免 大成功"},{"start":5760.873,"end":5788.641,"text":"1月26號的結果讓賴清德總統的臉丟到國際社會上日本獨賣新聞說排除在野勢力顯現獨裁心態這不是我說的這是向來對台灣友好對民進黨也相當友好的獨賣新聞社論說的今天關鍵的主題在於"},{"start":5790.302,"end":5798.219,"text":"你拿了史上最高的預算結果開始哭求說錢不夠沒有辦法做事"},{"start":5799.72,"end":5820.121,"text":"結果自己該刪的預算不刪把腦筋動到地方政府去違法苛扣應該給地方政府的一般補助款636億我先請教一下卓榮泰院長2024年中央政府總預算統刪了多少錢"},{"start":5823.612,"end":5840.626,"text":"照委員的提案要求統三939億2024年中央政府總預算我講的不是2025年現在我們今天在討論的是2025年的預算我請教你的是2024年中央政府總預算統三了多少錢"},{"start":5843.227,"end":5871.292,"text":"金額我再跟委員報告 但一定要經過一定的程序最後要行政院自行調整 並非不可但一定要跟行政院做協商你什麼時候開始當行政院院長的去年5月20號 對吧2024年中央政府總預算有一半以上是你就任以後花的你手上的中央政府總預算去年被統三了多少錢 你不清楚"},{"start":5872.438,"end":5899.539,"text":"我很驚訝數字我可以查給委員我很驚訝第二個問題去年去年中央政府總預算執行完了以後沒有執行的金額有多少錢我今天來報告的是114年的預算數字來 我直接跟你講為什麼這個數字有關係統三不是今年的總預算才開始"},{"start":5900.472,"end":5928.445,"text":"每一年的總預算都有啊去年的總預算捧三了299億第二個 去年的總預算給了你們兩兆8518億結果沒有執行的金額672億我們可以把執行的意義的分析出來跟委員報告沒有關係啊 人民在意的是什麼錢夠不夠用嘛"},{"start":5930.076,"end":5937.72,"text":"錢夠不夠用嘛 你被刪了 統刪299億有672億沒有執行 加起來多少錢議長 請你針對問題回答可以嗎加起來多少錢 還是現在連加法都有問題了加起來是971億970億代表了什麼"},{"start":5955.728,"end":5977.754,"text":"我即使在討論去年的預算不是今年最高史上的預算啊我以為你這種邏輯 刪掉了299億你還有672億沒有執行啊 結果呢我們可以把未執行的 現在刪掉了可以把未執行的預報處委員 939億以後你手上還有兩兆九千多億開始在哭窮啊"},{"start":5979.648,"end":5998.688,"text":"說我們的政府沒有錢可以執政沒有辦法施政說把腦筋違法動到地方政府的頭上童子權董事長前幾天講得很好啊不會持家就死透了啊 贊不贊成委員的邏輯跟你的推論都有問題"},{"start":5999.932,"end":6023.847,"text":"去沒有執行的總執行董事長說不會施加就洗頭囉 贊不贊成這句話 你自己啊你有什麼事情要去駁斥你自己回去開記者會今天是總執行今天是專案報告的執行就請你針對問題回答可以嗎我只說委員剛剛提出的邏輯上有問題"},{"start":6024.947,"end":6053.392,"text":"該年度未執行的我們可以把未執行的原因告訴委員不代表該年度未執行的以後連執行的機會都沒有我們在看政府施政的時候行政部門提出預算國會審預算依照國會通過的金額去執政任何民主國家都是這樣的哪一個民主國家的行政部門針對國會已經通過的預算"},{"start":6054.602,"end":6065.469,"text":"指手畫腳 還自己去違法挪我們要給地方政府的一般補助款哪一個國家的行政部門是這樣胡搞瞎搞的我為什麼提去年執行的狀況"},{"start":6074.915,"end":6084.404,"text":"三個兩百九十九億你還有六百多億根本沒執行我們可以把六百多億告訴我為什麼沒有執行公布在網站上面的報告"},{"start":6085.931,"end":6107.776,"text":"給你兩兆多億 八千多億你根本執行不利嘛未執行有它的因素或許有它的保留那不代表未來就不能執行結果現在在哭窮 說喊錢不夠沒有關係啦 我直接請教你在114年中央政府總預算我就問一個最簡單的問題有三地方補助款嗎"},{"start":6109.209,"end":6137.111,"text":"有沒有 立法院要行政院自行調整來 我們來看嘛113年中央政府總預算有沒有三地方補助款113年 立法院要求行政院自行調整對不起啊 113年113年是去年去年立法院在三總預算的時候有沒有三地方補助款你去年520就開始當行政院院長了"},{"start":6138.012,"end":6156.946,"text":"那要經過兩院協調你去年有多少錢 可以花多少錢錢從哪裡來你今天站在這邊似乎不是很清楚有跟立法院有跟行政院協調過嗎協商過事情調整的內容嗎我現在請教你的是113年我們在審預算的時候有沒有三地方補助款"},{"start":6158.032,"end":6179.51,"text":"有還是沒有因為沒有要行政院刪減630例這麼高的數額我們從其他地方來自行調整我們行政院可以吸收我是針對問題啊113年 請你看著螢幕好了你把113年 114年全部都搞混了113年上一屆的國會在審113年的預算有沒有刪除地方補助款因為沒有像114年刪減"},{"start":6185.314,"end":6208.493,"text":"這樣的1630億這麼高的三減數我們可以自行調整113年在3的時候有3地方補助款還除一般補助款3的4%為什麼要提113年因為你才有一個best line可以比較114年嘛113年上一屆的國會喔有3億"},{"start":6209.933,"end":6232.051,"text":"給地方政府的補助款喔 三個百分之四喔但是排除了一般補助款請問114年中央政府總預算案有三給地方政府的補助款嗎 有還是沒有沒有嘛立法院要行政院自行調整就沒有啊自行調整對啊 但是自行調整的項目是什麼請你看一下 提案單好不好"},{"start":6233.154,"end":6256.416,"text":"你這樣子連白紙黑字的東西你都可以在這邊硬凹都可以在這邊裝著看不見請你看著你螢幕上面的文字中央各機關級所屬你有沒有看到中央各機關級所屬委員所寫的白紙黑字刪不到939億"},{"start":6259.161,"end":6278.02,"text":"後面不是有統三嗎所以去年有沒有統三 去年也有統三啊本院向來在審查預算的慣例就是這個樣子啊從來沒有這樣審查過你從去年開始當行政院院長 從來沒有這樣審查過連立法院在審預算基本的規則都不懂喔"},{"start":6279.384,"end":6295.804,"text":"來 我們113年我們為什麼上一屆的國會在刪地方補助款的時候他不刪一般性的補助一般性的補助是不是法律義務支出是還是不是他是一般性的補助跟"},{"start":6296.968,"end":6312.794,"text":"計劃型補助兩項所以地方的補助一般型補助裡面的內容一般性補助款是不是法律義務支出一般性補助的內容是法律上應有的支出比方對社福 對教育 對基本設施所以一般性的補助款是不是法定義務支出"},{"start":6314.008,"end":6336.138,"text":"但是行政院基於補助的原則我們是自行調整自行調整是應立法院之要求奇怪 我再問A你不敢回答A再答B我直接告訴你答案啦你的秘書長在面對我質詢的時候說就他了解一般性補助款不是法律義務支出我一個字都沒扭曲喔"},{"start":6337.264,"end":6357.505,"text":"我一個字都沒扭曲喔從立法院公報截下來的我們再往下看奇怪了行政院去年的時候發函一般性的補助款是法律義務支出不得刪除奇怪了怎麼你們去年行政院的發函跟今年狗明星講的話完全不一樣"},{"start":6358.829,"end":6381.347,"text":"這個法律義務支出不就是你們行政院的函列出來的嗎來看一下紅框框起來的字我黃國昌問政向來有所本的啦框起來的字來看一下114年度中央政府總預算案編列依法律義務支出明細表清楚的框了出來對地方政府的一般性補助款"},{"start":6382.418,"end":6402.709,"text":"你們行政院老早就知道這是法律義務支出結果即使是法律義務支出明明知道國會沒有刪減你還是自己決定國會要求中央政府機關及其所屬通案刪減的項目"},{"start":6404.465,"end":6430.367,"text":"我擁有三句話第一個當天我們當天還有一句話說如果立法院審議結果有所刪減如果依照立法院審議結果有所刪減所以我剛剛才請教你嘛今年中央政府總預算有刪給地方政府的補助款嗎答案就是沒有嘛跟去年比 公案刪減的項目一模一樣第二個我現在在問你"},{"start":6431.64,"end":6454.782,"text":"給地方的一般性補助款是不是法律義務支出你繞來繞去耶這麼簡單這麼直率這麼明確的問題不敢回答為什麼不敢回答因為你知道這是法律義務支出嘛對其中的教育社福跟基本設施我們可以保留我們再繼續往下看 爭域裁員的部分我們考量可以調整三股生肖的法律行政院要不要遵守"},{"start":6457.335,"end":6482.644,"text":"三讀生效的法律行政院要不要遵守這是針對明年 116年來 您的螢幕前面有白紙黑字我們要給國人一個好的示範我們在談法律的時候就談法律一個字一個字的談法律不是你在答詢台上面捏造出來的法律條文來看著條文念"},{"start":6483.704,"end":6502.785,"text":"中央政府給予地方政府的一般性補助款不得少於修正施行前一年預算編列數寫得很清楚嘛寫得非常清楚嘛所以嘛就法律條文就清楚的看法律條文結果你們的發言人說"},{"start":6504.245,"end":6521.805,"text":"這個是新版的財化法只對青年3月23號以後要編的明年度總預算發生效力看著法律條文來看一下中央政府給予地方政府的一般性補助款他的動詞是什麼是給予"},{"start":6522.984,"end":6551.143,"text":"他的動詞是給予我簡單問一個問題財政收支劃分法什麼時候生效這個已經在今年送到立法院財政收支劃分法什麼時候生效什麼時候生效12月多少3月的時候生效後來我們有經過事件比較晚沒有啦你們後來所有的程序都搞完了以後這些複製全部都搞完總統才會公告嘛你怎麼連複製的程序都搞不懂"},{"start":6552.386,"end":6573.685,"text":"在復議以前 總統總會公告就是公告才會生效嘛他是公告生效 對嘛所以3月生效對不對明年的中央政府總會選3月生效對不對好 我們進一步來看 請問你們什麼時候重新核定給地方政府的補助款什麼時候重新核定"},{"start":6574.929,"end":6593.628,"text":"重新核定對啊 你給地方政府的一般性補助款去年8月的時候核定嘛今年你苛扣了636億嘛你重新核定的金額嘛你重新核定的金額是什麼時候我們不是苛扣 我們是自行調整沒有關係啊 隨便你要用什麼形容詞什麼時候做這件事的"},{"start":6594.269,"end":6613.31,"text":"我們那個韓在今年五六月的五月份的時候吧我記得說得很好啊那不是苛扣那是沒有關係啊我隨便你用什麼形容詞啊五月十六號核定的三月法律生效你五月還敢幹這件事喔那是對明年的法律我就說你要看法律聊我嗎"},{"start":6627.371,"end":6641.962,"text":"你要看法律條文法律條文的解釋是你著龍看別人捏到上面沒有的文字嗎三月生效你五月還敢苛扣給地方政府的住房違法濫捲落實為勝三月生效你五月苛扣好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":6645.275,"end":6664.615,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢 再次祝福黃國昌委員生日快樂謝謝卓院長備詢 謝謝博愛院會 我們現在休息進行黨團溝通請各黨團幹部10點30分在議場後方主席休息室進行相關溝通"},{"start":6666.539,"end":6676.804,"text":"自溝通完畢之後我們再行開會也請這段時間請卓院長及相關部會首長休息以及準備備詢先來休息"},{"start":10764.98,"end":10776.549,"text":"好 報告委員會我們繼續開會謝謝左院長閣員還有院名各位委員耐心的等候我們現在先處理朝野黨團協商結論請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":10779.588,"end":10796.662,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論時間114年8月19日星期二上午10時30分地點議長主席辦公室決定事項一各黨團同意8月25日星期一加開院會與8月22日星期五8月26日星期二"},{"start":10797.423,"end":10820.309,"text":"合併為一次會二 8月25日星期一邀請行政院院長率同副院長相關部會首長及談判代表列席答詢提出台美關稅談判之進程方針原則及台灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估專案報告並被質詢質詢人數由國民黨黨團推派10人民進黨黨團推派10人"},{"start":10823.25,"end":10847.101,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團推派二人進行每位委員尋答時間15分鐘質詢順序屹立授權議事處辦理名單請於8月22日星期五中午12時前送交議事處會審預時適同放棄修憲委員會定於當日中午召開二 8月26日星期二上午邀請行政院院長 主計長 財政部部長"},{"start":10848.081,"end":10871.463,"text":"及相關部會首長列席報告一百十四年度中央政府總預算追加預算案編制經過並備質詢質詢人數由國民黨黨團推派五人民進黨黨團推派五人台灣民眾黨黨團推派一人進行質詢順序屹立授權議事處辦理上訴名單請於八月二十五日星期一中午十二時前送至議事處會診"},{"start":10873.837,"end":10892.456,"text":"議案巡達完畢後 即將審查各黨團同意不提出復議四 行政院如於8月21日星期四以前將旦那斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別條例預算案送至立法院各黨團同意將其申列入"},{"start":10893.297,"end":10908.497,"text":"申列納入8月22日星期五 院會報告事項並於8月26日星期二下午邀請行政院院長 主計長財政部部長 行政院公共工程委員會主任委員及相關部會所長列席報告當那是颱風及728豪雨災禍"},{"start":10910.78,"end":10929.025,"text":"復原重建特別預算案編制經過並被質詢質詢人數由國民黨黨團推派5人民進黨黨團推派5人台灣民眾黨黨團推派1人進行質詢順序一例授權14處辦理上述名單請於8月25日星期一中午12時前送至14處會診"},{"start":10931.025,"end":10949.791,"text":"議案詢答完畢後 即將審查各黨團同意不提出複議當次會議不處理討論事項及臨時提案主持人韓國瑜協商代表柯建銘 吳世堯 陳培宇黃國昌 陳昭之 張祺凱傅坤琦 王宏維 羅志強宣讀完畢好 請問院會對以上參與黨團協商有無異議"},{"start":10952.679,"end":10965.775,"text":"沒有異議的話我們就通過114年6月8月19號朝一黨團協商經決定如下一各黨團同意8月25號星期一加開院會與8月22號星期五8月26號星期二合併為一次會二"},{"start":10966.716,"end":10983.174,"text":"8月25日星期一邀請行政院院長率同副院長、相關部會首長及談判代表列席答詢,提出《臺美關稅談判之進程方針原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估》。"},{"start":10985.516,"end":11005.649,"text":"專案報告並被質詢質詢人數由國民黨團推派10位民進黨團推派10位臺灣民眾黨團推派2位每位委員訓導時間15分鐘質詢順序一例授權議事處進行辦理名單請於8月22號星期五中午12點前送交議事處會診遇時適同放棄修憲委員會定於當日中午召開"},{"start":11006.89,"end":11030.472,"text":"8月26日星期二上午邀請行政院長、主記長、財政部長及相關部會首長列席報告《一百四年度中央政府總預算追加預算案編制經過並備諮詢》諮詢人數由國民黨團推派五位、民進黨團推派五位、臺灣民眾黨團推派一位進行諮詢順序依例授權議事處辦理上訴名單請於8月25日星期一中午12點前送交議事處會證"},{"start":11032.233,"end":11054.968,"text":"议案寻答完毕后即交审查各党团同意不提出复议四 行政院于8月21日星期四以前将当事台风及728豪雨灾后复原重建特别条例预算案送至立法院各党团同意将其甄列纳入8月22日星期五院会报告事项并于8月26日星期二下午邀请行政院长组织长财政部长行政院"},{"start":11055.368,"end":11083.167,"text":"公共工程委會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案編制經過並備諮詢諮詢人數由國民黨團推派5位民進黨團推派5位臺灣民眾黨團推派1位進行諮詢順序依例授權議事處處理上述名單請於8月25日星期一中午12點前送至議事處會診議案詢答完畢後即交付審查各黨團同意不提出複議"},{"start":11085.228,"end":11094.196,"text":"不處理討論事項及臨時提案現在我們繼續進行本日我們專案請接下來請徐副科委員質詢楊瓊英文請準備"},{"start":11113.023,"end":11115.087,"text":"謝謝主席 有請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備選"},{"start":11125.731,"end":11149.827,"text":"徐文豪 院長好 院長辛苦大家辛苦 各位院長我想今天再度邀請您到立法院來做這個專案報告我想您應該是百感交集但是應該有萬般無奈因為也是要來面對這樣的一個困境極力說明清楚是 是 那我想我們還是要回顧還原一下這個一年多來的一個狀況"},{"start":11151.158,"end":11174.93,"text":"我想院長上任之後立法院的狀況您也非常的清楚尤其我們國民黨跟民眾黨的立委殺紅了眼不管是在委員會也好甚至院會好像在砍預算比賽一樣國民黨砍完之後砍不夠民眾黨接著一直砍所以我想包含我們刪除的預算高達"},{"start":11175.791,"end":11189.388,"text":"兩千零七十億凍結預算也高達一千三百多億都創下歷史的新高面對這樣一個困境甚至還要求行政院要自行刪減這個六百三十六億調整的部分我想面對這樣一個困境"},{"start":11190.472,"end":11215.899,"text":"放毒的也是他們現在改毒的還要叫你來改毒找解放我想對行政團隊非常的不公平但是我想這樣的一個狀況不僅我們的重大建設受到影響受困受難的也是我們的百姓我想針對這樣一個狀況屏東縣也是首當其衝在這邊我想我還是要跟幫我們屏東的鄉親甚至我們屏東努力的屏東縣政府來講幾句話所以院長"},{"start":11218.52,"end":11240.108,"text":"針對目前的這個狀況您自己有什麼樣的感想非常感謝委員的理解這個困難不僅在中央各部會我認為也會延續的影響到地方各種的補助環象但是所謂補助是當地方有重大建設或是財政力量比較差的我們會補助"},{"start":11241.884,"end":11264.401,"text":"從來沒有一個規定說補助要補助到百分之百或是補助到一個額度所以我們是濁於補助那在這個情況底下我們衡量中央政府的財政目前剛剛形容的水庫的水都被抽光了我們只有濁減地方的補助但對那些財政狀況較差的我們還是極力的讓他不要發生困難這個是最高原則"},{"start":11265.68,"end":11292.14,"text":"院長我想您也非常清楚這個六都跟非六都整個財政結構是相當的不同這些有的這個執政藍營的執政縣市得了便宜還賣乖甚至比院會還跟你槓上在講這些財化法我認為都非常非常的對我們行政團隊不公平像我們非六都來講這個我們原本的自由財源就少了尤其像屏東大家我們都是農業線讓我們的工商業比較不發達"},{"start":11294.241,"end":11318.184,"text":"所以我們也很努力在爭取這個一般性補助跟計劃型的補助也是希望讓屏東能夠發展能夠讓這個各行各業都有一定的一個穩定的一個力量那面對這樣一個困境我想不只是這個這一次的預算屏東縣被砍了52億我想是這個首當其衝甚至我們也擔心明年的財化法我們也是非六都"},{"start":11319.125,"end":11340.419,"text":"受補助成長最少的一個縣市我想這樣子的一個衝擊對我們整個屏東縣的財政也好重大交通建設這個整個預算執行社會福利也好我們面臨很大的一個挑戰跟壓力院長我想您這段期間你也常常來屏東啦幫你關心我們農業的一個狀況甚至我們工商業的一個發展"},{"start":11340.859,"end":11366.327,"text":"甚至你也主持了我們交通建設的一個勘察我想屏東一直在持續的向前推進當中也需要我們省政院大力的支持院長講過一句話只要機器行政 你就會機器這個地方政府我想這句話我們都放在心裡面都非常的感動院長這句話會不會因為目前的困境受到影響我是說支持中央政策的我們一定要跟他保持高度的合作"},{"start":11366.994,"end":11373.958,"text":"那對中央政策有不同意見的我們盡量去說服他們我今天就是用這樣的一個追加預算的方式來拜託請這個"},{"start":11377.806,"end":11401.688,"text":"刪減預算之後造成困難讓大家了解請立法院能夠同意一起從中央政策共同來出發來協助地方那當中我想委員過去到現在我知道一直很支持中央的預算中央的政策各方面那我們不需要花太多時間來討論我們只要花更多的時間討論說我們這些給地方的補助當中我們如何去執行就好"},{"start":11402.244,"end":11420.181,"text":"所以分階段今天是希望說水回到大水庫那跟委員討論的是留給地方的水我們怎麼樣去到該有水的地方去這兩個層次是不一樣的我想面對一個認真的一個努力的一個縣市政府我想院長應該會大力來支持尤其過去"},{"start":11421.242,"end":11435.516,"text":"從我們潘孟安秘書長當任縣長到現在周村民縣長院長只要來到屏東看了屏東的現象應該都讓你驚豔啦我們用最少的預算但是我們做最大的一個效益我想這是人民有感的一個施政的一個成果"},{"start":11435.856,"end":11448.966,"text":"但是我也很無奈我們一律用25%的比例來篩檢也是很無奈這也表示說我們這地方其實是放在同樣的天平上來看的只是說現在跟原來支持的我們是跟他討論說如何去執行"},{"start":11451.388,"end":11470.055,"text":"但現在請求更多的委員是希望能夠把中央的預算能夠補回來我們就能夠如數如期的來協助院長你現在提出了838億的一個案子當然希望大家可以來集齊因為尤其這個我想這個我們整個尤其屏東縣政府"},{"start":11470.982,"end":11487.985,"text":"一連串也提出了很多包含這個道路橋樑的一個改建包含校園環境的一個運動設施的改建甚至最重要的掃紙化我們針對公托的部分還有我們照顧老人家我們衛生所的改建計畫我們現在都還在我們相關的部會我們不希望"},{"start":11488.405,"end":11511.207,"text":"因為預算的減少這些照顧百姓的一些政策受到影響我想也要麻煩院長給屏東最大力的支持院長這都不是很大的錢但是對屏東是非常非常的重要但是我想當然大水庫裡面我們都支持但是應該要針對足以需求的項目我們再來做盤點來給予最大最有力的一個支持好不好 院長"},{"start":11511.997,"end":11529.717,"text":"我知道中央跟地方現在都陷入到這樣的困難那我們共同來解決所以行政院提出的這個解決的方法我一直想到這是現在唯一也是必須要做的那就能夠及時的來化解這樣的中央跟地方共同在財政在預算執行上面的困窘"},{"start":11530.99,"end":11558.324,"text":"所以院長我還是要提醒就是說我們賴總統講的我們均衡台灣的一個理念過去我們希望把重北青南不均衡的狀況要有所調整但是我也擔心目前依藍白二拔的態度他們現在予取予求什麼都是他們要分好的我們非六都比較偏遠的地方我們就只能大概去分一些比較不重要的東西我覺得這對我們是"},{"start":11559.878,"end":11583.449,"text":"不盡公平也情何以堪尤其我們也擔心未來會不會因為這樣子又走回重北侵染的一個狀況軍人台灣一直是總統要求行政院全力去執行的現在包括我們想追加的這筆追加預算以及明年中央政府總預算我們在非常受到嚴控的"},{"start":11584.844,"end":11598.401,"text":"原則底下因為真的是財政收入發放法拿掉中央太多的錢我們很多項目都無法由中央單獨來負擔我們要嘛跟地方共同調整分擔的比例"},{"start":11599.602,"end":11628.714,"text":"要嘛就要延長整個工程進行的時間這個會對地方造成很大的影響是沒有錯但是我們還是在盡量的用最精密的一個算法來把這個傷害把它縮到最小讓各地方所影響能夠稍微平均一點比較財政好的地方希望他們自己獨立自主多一點財政差的地方中央資助更多的像我們現在已經把台灣分做五個等級的財政級距"},{"start":11629.474,"end":11643.521,"text":"那最第五級第四級的我們當然要給予更多的協助這樣才能把它拉平均衡台灣的軍事我想除了這個財政的一個劃分之外那我們也比較擔心就是過去這個"},{"start":11645.07,"end":11658.887,"text":"市權的分配的一個中央有中央的權責地方政府有地方政府的執行的一個量能但是隨著這個財化法調整之後我想這個我們也過去在這個財化法我們一直在討論這樣的一個均衡的狀況"},{"start":11660.339,"end":11689.765,"text":"那中央會不會因為這樣的一個重新調整了之後把很多的事權下放到地方但是相對性我跟我們原民會的主委一樣我們都來服務在屏東縣政府服務過我們都很清楚地方政府的人力也好整個量能也好真的有些事情是不見得能夠做得那麼如意啦一定需要中央大力來支持尤其整個重大建設也好還有甚至我上一次我特別請院長要幫忙我們從上游 中游 下游"},{"start":11690.245,"end":11703.446,"text":"整個治山防洪整個區域治理治水的一個計畫我們都需要整個一條邊的一個處理從中央跟地方大家來合作那是不是這個機制會因為明年的財化法重新調整過會有所影響"},{"start":11704.429,"end":11723.867,"text":"其實要調整討論財化法之前應該跟地方制度的精神要一致屬於地方自治事項地方應辦事項要地方自己來承擔中央只是做財力的分佈上比較差的做協助所以剛剛有一個比例剛剛委員提到過去"},{"start":11725.148,"end":11754.068,"text":"中央60%的財政 地方40%但列裡面包括了11%的省政府當時省政府的業務現在都移波給中央了但又把它回復做6比4之分就表示這11是錢邊在地方 事情邊在中央就失衡了但是我們現在衡量整個來看就像我們現在經濟部所提出的4年1000億的縣市館河川的改善計畫"},{"start":11755.323,"end":11781.996,"text":"過去我們都做的是中央做的是中央管河川對縣市管河川其實是地方該做的但我們看到這樣解決不了問題很多末端跟源頭地方管的一些縣市管河川還是有問題所以我們還是願意編編的過程如果中央真的在4年內要籌出1000億有困難我們還是要跟地方談也許我們有一個適當的比例地方也負擔一些 中央也負擔一些用4年1000億把它"},{"start":11783.757,"end":11812.535,"text":"源頭跟末端給他做好這樣才能共同解決問題萬一中央政府真的財政有困難不行這個事情也做不了我們還在做這樣的努力跟規劃我很贊成你的這個看法不過就是我也擔心這個在野黨能不能去真的支持這樣的一個立場然後甚至到時候在這個整個這個我們提出相關案子的時候會不會被你卡關我也很擔心這個東西每個委員一聽到治水都說全力支持我也希望這是我們共同的信念"},{"start":11813.961,"end":11842.194,"text":"我想院長最近一萬塊的事件甚至我看藍白提出軍人志願役的加急甚至針對禁法補償這一連串我想他們思考的當然是名為照顧我們鄉親但是我看到的是他們應該是行政策買標之事未來我們也擔心會不會一連串這樣的一個政策不斷地推出來"},{"start":11843.033,"end":11847.498,"text":"企圖讓行政院要買單院長 你擔心這樣的狀況嗎普發現金經過風災之後面對關稅的衝擊再經過大院很多朝委黨團各委員"},{"start":11856.721,"end":11883.193,"text":"特別表示不同的聲音以及黨團的意見我們都聽到了我們也看到這個普發先進2350億的編列加到這個任性特別條例裡面來這原來對憲法局預算精神是完全違背的但是我們看到大家的聲音我們認為第一個如果因此而讓我們的產業支持的預算沒辦法通過照顧民生沒辦法通過還有"},{"start":11884.153,"end":11897.096,"text":"國土任性沒有辦法通過將是國家整個的停頓下來所以我們願意朝這個方向來調整所以我們提出了修正任性條例我也希望任性條例大家能夠平心靜氣合理的來談"},{"start":11897.895,"end":11927.535,"text":"第一個解決了各項大家爭議的預算都能夠執行第二個化解了讓所有的憲政危機憲政秩序能夠恢復正常第三個時間上我們能夠盡快的來執行所有委員關心的問題以及國人所期待的在三個理由之下我懇請大院能夠將任性特別條例的修正考案能夠緊速的放入議程討論我們快快的邊依據來編劇編列這個特別預算那就可以進一步的推動"},{"start":11928.635,"end":11956.641,"text":"我想這是一個很好的開始希望能夠朝野來支持針對明年度的總預算你會擔心明年的編列會出狀況嗎有今年的經驗我認為朝野各黨團在協商的過程一定會更精密一點行政院會主動涉入介入這個協商我們會主動涉入提出我們應該有的講法跟我們的期待以及兩院應該有的良性互動"},{"start":11957.759,"end":11983.193,"text":"但是我也擔心這樣的能頭請骨的一個模式會歷史重演甚至在這個你現在準備要開始編列明年度的預算了災黨會端出什麼樣的菜要求行政院要買單我想院長跟團隊要做好準備在今年整個社會氛圍底下我們只有抱著樂觀跟期待才能往下走如果省運明年度的預算又重複今年的覆測"},{"start":11984.432,"end":12004.678,"text":"表示這個社會的進步有限表現人民的聲音還是沒有被強烈的傳達出來還有行政院一直希望依照憲法依照預算法這個最終極的目標還是沒有被尊重這絕非現在兩院互動應該有的模式我記得你前幾天有提出這個針對我們這個整個"},{"start":12007.827,"end":12029.397,"text":"沿海地區跟地化地區一個電能地下化的一個概念要推動那因為我剛好昨天我從這個平和公路下到恆春也去看了幾個淹水的地方那沿路上我就想到我們蘇貞昌前院長這個也是他在任內的一個推動所以從去年的風災三坨到今年風災這個平和公路恆春半島都沒有發生停電的一個狀況好謝謝"},{"start":12037.779,"end":12061.913,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝徐富奎委員質詢謝謝卓院長備詢報應會現在在議場二樓旁聽來自日本自民黨青年局的朋友我們掌聲歡迎接下來我們請今天上午最後一位登記發言的楊瓊英委員請質詢"},{"start":12068.684,"end":12080.559,"text":"謝謝院會主席韓院長行政院卓院長所領軍的團隊來自日本的好朋友以及各位同仁親吻界的朋友楊純英發言院長首先邀請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":12091.752,"end":12112.009,"text":"梁委員好院長好 院長我們今天針對於行政院對地方政府的一般性補助款來做討論首先我要請教院長古人有說過一句話叫做政通人和你知道這個意思嗎這是政治上追求一個相當高的境界"},{"start":12113.697,"end":12133.786,"text":"政治上追求相當高的境界也算是內容其中之一那我解讀的是正視同打百姓和人心都要非常的和順這是我解讀的正同仁和你認為你上任到現在你覺得你有做到正同仁和嗎我一直很努力"},{"start":12134.52,"end":12162.334,"text":"您一直努力 請繼續努力因為我們看到的是是沒有達到正通人和所以基本上我們更認為是反其道而行為什麼呢 我們來討論行政院在5月16號突發式的一個公文要刪全國地方政府的一般性補助款請問 請問院長你事先有跟立法院跟地方政府有做過溝通嗎"},{"start":12165.194,"end":12188.016,"text":"主祭總署主祭長應該跟各地方的主祭人員都有談過這個事情主祭長有跟地方政府通過這個事情應該他們都知道要刪減濁山就你一直一直令下來啊5月16號啊之前我們有說過我們有討論過各種的方式各縣市政府說我要刪你多少錢嗎"},{"start":12188.717,"end":12211.452,"text":"我們有做過各種的方式跟推估各種的方式跟推估本席請教有跟立法院跟地方政府有做過溝通嗎是不是請主席講說明一下我們在核定8月30的時候在核定一般性補助款的時候就告知如果立法院這邊有刪減那就要搭配刪減是這樣子哇 那這個更偉大了"},{"start":12212.605,"end":12228.399,"text":"可以如此嗎不要說藍營的首長都不知情連綠營的首長 立委他們也都是被動告知被動告知所以本席定調你沒有正通人和所以本席要再跟你討論的是"},{"start":12230.399,"end":12255.036,"text":"為什麼會在事後來開槍呢為什麼還要地方政府去舉債呢為什麼還要說要看地方政府還說是一個輪迴呢輪迴之說這到底怎麼回事請教院長這個源頭就是行政院的預算被大院刪減那麼多之後我們的源頭沒有了我們源頭沒有了這個水如何下去凡事要正通人和"},{"start":12255.896,"end":12277.576,"text":"大家要求的是地方跟中央我們要有一些可以辦事的預算如果中央被刪除了我們怎麼去酌補地方請你仔細看立法院今天刪除通過送請總統府總統府公告之在這個公告之當中他是怎麼說的我們繼續來討論"},{"start":12279.398,"end":12293.755,"text":"也就是說你說你刪了這個地方這個一般政府租款 您知道嗎以台中市為主 刪了32億這些錢是什麼低收入戶 兒童 生長"},{"start":12294.736,"end":12320.121,"text":"中低收入戶的一個補助育兒津貼就學補助 稻料 橋樑以及公園等基礎設施這些都是救命錢 院長這都是 院長如果你願意犧牲孩子身障者長輩的權益來達到政治的一個算計那這有道理嗎如果台中市政府真的這麼做那是台中市政府自己的選擇"},{"start":12322.95,"end":12330.716,"text":"院長 請你注意聽你說是台中市政府的選擇台中市政府不會犧牲這些人"},{"start":12332.179,"end":12352.75,"text":"就像在權益所以本身要告訴你立法院要求行政院你再怎麼砍你也不能違法本身告訴你像立法院要求行政院一般性補助款自行調整您的公文你就要去超越法制請你注意聽這是明顯的違法首先根據3月21號總統令華總一經制定1140026191號公佈的"},{"start":12361.934,"end":12383.471,"text":"這個內容非常明文的規定說明一般性補助款2501億1279億元照列院長照列是什麼意思照列應該不用不用再解釋了吧照列這是總總府公告之"},{"start":12384.52,"end":12391.429,"text":"那麼預算經過了立法院審議之後總統府公布之即成為法定的預算"},{"start":12392.506,"end":12415.793,"text":"同時它的形式跟法律是相當法定的預算具有法律規範的效力行政機關你必須要依照法定的預算去執行之你是不得違法的這是總統府公告之連這樣都敢看不是違法 什麼叫違法行政院編列預算也請立法院依法審議預算"},{"start":12417.433,"end":12427.817,"text":"當立法院在審議預算違背了整個精神跟原則的時候行政院已經沒有預算可以去對地方政府做任何酌情的補助院長 請你回答提問的時候你要審思啊"},{"start":12436.104,"end":12462.303,"text":"你要省思啊總統府公告之都已經是照列兩個字你還這麼樣的一個違法亂看我再告訴你3月21號總統府公布的財化法的一個修正我們看到規定你政府對於地方政府的一般性補助款的金額你不得少於修正前一年度的預算編列數"},{"start":12463.524,"end":12486.266,"text":"你这样砍就等于又违反了明年度的预算编制的原则你这样砍又违反了好你就说了这个明年度最好的你告诉人家说明年度财务法修改了之后你可以用财务法你现在取债你可以用财务法去还债资赵烈的预算里头我们砍的预算"},{"start":12487.503,"end":12507.251,"text":"明列出11項中央各項目並沒有將中央政府中央這個地方政府的這個補助款一般性補助款是一毛錢也沒有刪而是總統府公佈之是照列兩個字那是因為在通案通案刪減中通案刪減要399億但照那幾項只能刪掉303億很清楚"},{"start":12516.574,"end":12544.002,"text":"在哪裡 你很清楚在不動的 在使用不好的刪減這個看緊荷包但是本席再次跟你強調一般性補助款是一毛也沒刪而且是總統府公告之公佈之是照列 非常清楚所以本席要再告訴你本席要再告訴你你砍了地方補助"},{"start":12544.682,"end":12566.261,"text":"你事前沒有溝通你事後又開降地方政府跟人民要大家自己去舉債還有輪回縮這是一個公然違法的事情請問有這麼糟蹋人民的政府嗎有這樣嗆人民的政府嗎所以本席要告訴你本席已經告訴你了"},{"start":12572.045,"end":12586.258,"text":"一般性補助款我第三次告訴你一般性補助款一毛錢也沒刪總統府公布之所以你當政府的權利他已經凌駕到法律的時候我相信"},{"start":12587.679,"end":12602.594,"text":"當政府的權力已經凌駕到這樣子的一個權力的時候凌駕到法律面裡頭我相信人民都是雪亮的人民不會沉默的所以本校要告訴院長"},{"start":12604.127,"end":12631.187,"text":"法定的預算的刪減它不是鬥爭的工具它必須要循著嚴格的法定程序我們依照預算法第七十一條的規定預算的執行是當國家有發生特殊重大災難的時候你要必須要刪減的時候你還要經過你的行政院院會通過送請總統府以令發布執行詞"},{"start":12632.248,"end":12654.689,"text":"今天有什麼這樣的情勢呢所以院長你還違規到中央對直轄市以及縣市政府的政府的補助辦法一般性的補助辦法的一個停波的一個減少減劣以及扣減都有明文的法律規定"},{"start":12655.57,"end":12676.872,"text":"怎麼可能你想要刪 你要調 就調呢怎麼可以如此呢是行政院的錢被你們刪掉了行政院不得不這麼做而已再一次 第四次強調一般性補助款總統府公告之一毛錢都不要刪我再一次回答都沒有刪是要我們進行調整我再一次回答是要我們進行調整所以 院長"},{"start":12678.553,"end":12705.868,"text":"我们刚刚的讨论我相信人民看得到人民希望安定的生活我们不希望如此的一个违反所以你现在提了这个方案进来我们审慎的在审查支持我们地方预算要能够全额一般性的补助预算要能够全额来回补资会不会"},{"start":12706.688,"end":12708.19,"text":"會不會全數如期的回復中央不會對地方的補助任何的苛扣"},{"start":12722.322,"end":12741.991,"text":"你有一个善意的回应你也听到地方的痛苦所以本席要告诉你本席要告诉你你这一次删了台中市32亿的一般性补助款违法影响了65万人"},{"start":12742.651,"end":12765.778,"text":"您知道嗎包括了我們的生活補助費我們的國中小學以及高中大專孩子的教育補貼所以本席要告訴你這一些錢都是法定總統府照列公告資所以本席還是要告訴你低收入戶"},{"start":12767.058,"end":12791.965,"text":"這些的生活津貼 警消的設備以及基礎建設 這些都是命脈不容許如此當整政治惡鬥的工具來違法地砍除地方的補助款國防外交教育被大院刪除多少影響中央執政 您在乎一點點嗎本期再次 第五次告訴你一般性補助款"},{"start":12792.705,"end":12802.859,"text":"我們的總統府公告之是照列立法院一毛錢都沒有刪立法院邀請政院自行刪除自行調整本席要跟你討論的"},{"start":12804.11,"end":12831.399,"text":"因為政治的惡鬥我相信你也不願意政治的惡鬥如果是凌駕在我們孩子的餐桌老人家的藥袋消防員的設備這絕對是不容許的這絕對是不容許的我現在本席要跟你討論的是我們最近碰到了關稅議題在這一次你也下鄉來聽"},{"start":12833.243,"end":12862.382,"text":"本期從一開始就一直建議率先提出行政院必須要提出我們的預算協助所有的產業我們現在所得到的關稅20%累加關稅平均全國累加的關稅2.4%台中市是我們所有的工具機 手工具機我們的機械 試行車所有零組件重中之重"},{"start":12863.423,"end":12889.034,"text":"本席一頓一直吶喊880億你們出估提出來本席說不夠再拜託你們絕對不夠光光880億在我台中就不夠了更何況全國所以你們第二次提出再增加50億 930億本席仍舊不管在經濟委員會在大院一再強調絕對是不夠"},{"start":12891.277,"end":12910.014,"text":"因為目前關稅我們最受害的是什麼人是傳統產業也就是在你點頭也就是在我們台中地區這些重中之重他不只是影響到我們的傳統產業現在目前院長你知道嗎他們不敢接單"},{"start":12911.155,"end":12928.984,"text":"他們倉庫到期不敢續約他們不知道要怎麼佈建未來而且影響到相應對的是勞工他們的工作權現在已經有做四天休三天甚至有放無薪假"},{"start":12929.844,"end":12951.595,"text":"所以本席也歡喜看到你們再提出增加的450億裡頭有200億是要給我們產業但是你告訴我們這200億是預留怎麼評估啊你告訴我需要的時候你就提出請問現在已經是急救時什麼情況叫做可以提出這200億協助我們的產業請說明"},{"start":12954.838,"end":12968.919,"text":"這是行政院尊重立法院需要的時候向你提出你需要的評估依據是什麼我已經告訴你已經在急救了委員有意見的話可以把它改成5900億一次編組我沒有意見"},{"start":12970.222,"end":12994.75,"text":"你是行政院長今天是你今天送到立法院來我告訴你產業需求請你將200億編進來我們全力支持產業可不可以我們是尊重立法院你尊重立法院我們要支持產業200億編進來全力支持你可以把它恢復成5900億支持我們的產業好不好委員可以把它提議如果大院都同意我當然沒有意見你要不要送進來"},{"start":13008.385,"end":13008.885,"text":"好 謝謝楊瓊英文諮詢"},{"start":13013.171,"end":13027.62,"text":"謝謝卓院長 主席長 貝詢謝謝報言會上午時勻到此為止下午2點30分繼續開會我們謝謝林倩琦委員從早上到現在都在陪著我們一起參與專案報告那我們下午2點半繼續開會現在休息"},{"start":21584.005,"end":21612.521,"text":"好 報告院會我們繼續開會接下來請宗嘉斌委員質詢王宏威委員請準備好 主席在場的委員先進列席的總經理官上官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生那麼有請卓院長及主席長以及莊部長麻煩請卓院長 主席長來任部備詢"},{"start":21624.93,"end":21652.422,"text":"鳳委員好院長好主席長好莊部長好今天我要請教的題目是中央財稅分配應考慮城鄉發展所得統計以呈現稅負公平目標請問卓院長最近為了災後重建美國關稅衝擊我看到了勞動部發布了一些對勞工的獎勵或補助或支撐措施您知道嗎相當多元知道 很多元"},{"start":21654.022,"end":21670.64,"text":"我昨天看到勞動部發布了一個消息說明年的基本工資將渴望調高可能高達3%甚至勞團建議4%你覺得是什麼原因需不需要調整這個調整都有一定討論的時程跟過程"},{"start":21672.403,"end":21697.702,"text":"那最後除了聽取大家意見之外我們衡量國家的財政面臨的各種國內外情勢抱歉勞工的基本薪資跟政府的財政沒有關聯他跟我們的經濟成長跟我們的物價指數還有跟勞工的薪資所得要不要提升有關而且是由學者專家另外政府以外的一個團體結合工商僱主跟勞工代表共同來討論對不對"},{"start":21698.723,"end":21720.95,"text":"我們還是會考慮到他調整所以說如果基本薪資調高是不是反映著我們的勞工朋友會樂於見到這樣的過程過去的幾年我們都連續的調高 是的這是一個政府努力帶動經濟成長利潤分配勞工的一個做法所以勞動部這樣的一個消息接入是很振奮人心但是我又看到另外的新聞"},{"start":21722.13,"end":21750.086,"text":"人事總書表示說明年軍工調薪啊只有兩個版本一個是不調一個是3%看起來不調的可能性大請教一下如果說今天經濟成長我們可以帶動基本薪資的提高那為什麼公教沒有政府沒有錢幫公教加薪呢主計長這不是很衝突嗎為什麼沒有辦法幫宗教加薪這個部分也是要看我們整個一個裁員的結構"},{"start":21751.349,"end":21773.521,"text":"現在財源 明年沒有足夠的財源可以幫公教加薪對 麥克風大聲一點你要很清楚的告訴國人尤其是告訴全國的公教朋友今天我們政府可以帶動經濟成長可以讓勞工朋友明年的基本工資渴望調高"},{"start":21774.677,"end":21788.945,"text":"將近3%甚至4%但是我們政府中央的財政困難沒有能力幫全國的公教加薪是不是這樣子其實一方面也是因為我們沒有要發展就是因為財化法把中央的收入撥給的地方對不對"},{"start":21789.855,"end":21805.726,"text":"好 卓院長早上也是這樣表達嘛我們中央的財源被地方拿走了嘛是不是所以民間經濟成長老闆可以幫勞工加薪基本薪資可以提高但是作為雇主的中央政府沒有辦法沒有餘裕幫全國公教調薪是不是這樣"},{"start":21806.502,"end":21834.131,"text":"像今年的調薪中央政府單獨負擔是122億可是我們會補給地方90億地方另外還有50億自行負擔但未來這樣的結構必須要做改變所以說改變之前要讓地方知道所以說你要大聲的告訴他那如果因為中央沒有錢幫全國公教調薪地方政府有錢可不可以單獨幫地方的公務員調薪可不可以但是我們考慮到公務員的薪資還是要有全國的一致性"},{"start":21834.67,"end":21852.037,"text":"今天台南市議會都通過啊 認為台南市政府有餘裕啊要普發加碼普發現金 你有沒有看到這個新聞其實任何的社會福利跟這種政策啊 都應該他有那你知道黃市長怎麼說嗎他說如果要發不是發一千 要發就要發一萬啊"},{"start":21853.137,"end":21881.556,"text":"如果地方政府有財慾要做好人大家都會做今天中央的財政因為財政收支發放這樣調整之後中央比地方窮中央沒有辦法幫公交加薪地方比較有錢地方來幫公交人員調薪可以嗎這樣可能有失全國公務員公平的這個機制又要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草不給中央草又要地方的馬兒肥這是不可能的嘛所以我們來往下看這個就是統計數字來我看到昨天一個很大的新聞"},{"start":21882.546,"end":21910.147,"text":"青年所得再創新高31歲以下年平均收入將近56萬元56萬元什麼意思我跟院長說一下56萬元除以12一個月要拿4萬6多的薪水月薪那如果你全國不要拿年輕人全國平均所得是73萬平均月薪大概是6萬以上院長你認識的年輕朋友3歲以下的有多少比例是拿到4萬6以上的月薪"},{"start":21910.899,"end":21935.217,"text":"所以這只是長年來一樣的統計數據跟計算的方式我覺得要呈現出來的應該更貼近真實呈現的跟人民的感受是不是有距離我們經常有跟主席總書說你公佈平均數真正大家感受的是中位數我再給你拿一個數字如果你拿114年每個月的薪資所得經常信薪資所得未滿30歲的平均數是3萬4啊中位數是3萬啊跟你們發布的數據"},{"start":21938.854,"end":21962.667,"text":"年輕人的感受差很多啊中位數三萬接近我們的基本工資兩萬八千六平均數多了四千塊是不是所以是哪一個數字才能貼近人民的感受主席長是平均數還是中位數報告委員這個部分平均數是四萬六但是中位數是三萬八因為這是我們案例我瞭解我說哪一個比較貼近人民的感受你認為"},{"start":21964.25,"end":21989.082,"text":"當然是中位數 這就是問題我再告訴你下一個數字這是我們未滿30歲每個月經常薪資你拿中位數跟平均數來看從109年到114年中位數比平均數差了2700到現在差到了3400有沒有看到什麼叫做中位數跟平均的差距就是所得分配惡化"},{"start":21990.08,"end":22018.493,"text":"中位數比較低 平均數比較高表示高於中位數的人的薪資高很多很多這樣了解嗎 什麼影響再看一看這個所得分配二的話是什麼這是全年齡的114年1月到6月全國的受僱員工中位數是38000平均數47600差了9500啊院長我要告訴你年輕的時候30歲以下我跟那個高所得的"},{"start":22019.991,"end":22041.429,"text":"本來是差多少 本來差3,500經過了質押發展之後 拉到了9,500這是什麼意思政府要正式從職場一入場的時候 所得分配二劃我們看看中衛書跟評估的差別 我再講一個聽 下一頁這是一個高中籃球隊一個班級籃球隊的身高有10個人"},{"start":22043.001,"end":22046.984,"text":"從169 170 171 172 還有一個160的然後有一個178 183 190 2200的中位數在哪裡 在172.5結果173以下的6個 178以上的200 190 180的這樣了解中位數跟平均數的意思沒有多數的人不到172 可是平均數是176"},{"start":22068.812,"end":22094.035,"text":"這就是少數身高特別高的人拉高了我們的身高平均我用這麼淺白的方式告訴你我們的統計數字應該要符合貼近人民真實的感受我們再往下看委員我曾經要求過組計書公佈的時候要同時公佈沒有改嘛沒有改嘛我再告訴你我現在進屋去查那如果所得分配二的話我們的資產分配有沒有改善"},{"start":22094.977,"end":22107.389,"text":"我查不到這個數字我要查全國23個縣市我們的家戶資產負債 我們有看到說家庭部門平均每戶的資產負債高達1477萬你去跟我們評論的鄉親講你們每戶的資產是將近1500萬沒人聽下去啦這種數字就是主計總數公布的"},{"start":22117.366,"end":22144.057,"text":"我們主計總數的數字是客觀的但是怎麼有意義的呈現讓人民知道你知道我要問什麼嗎我要了解一下到底現在全國人民的資產各縣市的分布有沒有一個惡化的均值我找到一個很接近的數字往下看就是土地資產土地資產的價格高低很多人說取決於什麼不是取決於炒作取決於政府投入公共建設的多寡我們來看一下"},{"start":22145.216,"end":22166.958,"text":"土地價值最高的一定是六都不對除了台北市新北市之外從中間第二名第三名到第四名第五名是竹科的概念區竹科的概念區新竹縣市跟苗栗地價很高然後呢台中桃園高雄跟台南啊然後呢底下通通都是非都"},{"start":22168.174,"end":22190.573,"text":"六都的土地資產價格高於非都除了新竹科學園區概念之外什麼原因就是因為我們政府預算規模的限制我給你看台中跟彰化兩個人在一起彰化的人口呢是台中的人口是彰化的將近三倍預算規模呢兩倍多"},{"start":22191.756,"end":22217.021,"text":"反過來預算規模將近三倍人口規模兩倍多他的人均分配的預算可用額度就差了將近兩成什麼意思六度的財政他的人口規模相對有利每個人可以分配到的政府預算相對多房地產的價格自然提高相對的非都彰化跟台中就在隔壁彰化的縣民我還不拿屏東來比"},{"start":22218.376,"end":22243.144,"text":"就拿彰化來跟台中比彰化是非都的人口最多的縣市結果呢他能分票預算最少院長我要說的是說今天我要叫屈啊您早上在說的我們中央對地方的補助的目的是什麼不是補助地方政府給他零用錢啊是要平衡協助地方的發展不均嘛對不對所以不是一視同仁按照人口規模給多少嘛主計長你們怎麼分配的"},{"start":22248.192,"end":22276.081,"text":"你們人口怎麼分配的我們用財力分級來分配我要告訴你地方補助款是為了改善城鄉差距的分配不是按照人口規模一次同仁給他一樣多我要告訴你資產價格是分布不均是因為基礎建設分配不均基礎建設分配不均要靠我們地方補助款來調節幫助地方的財政發展我們才能改善城鄉的差距城鄉的差距不改善我們來看幾個數字你來看屏東這四十二點有增加增加的幅度最少"},{"start":22276.923,"end":22305.802,"text":"我們再往下看現在什麼少子化習台預估全國將有40所大學要關門院長你猜猜看要先關哪幾所我告訴你最先關的兩所都在屏東屏東的鄉親已經夠可憐了我們現在連大學都從非都開始關門我們再往下看偏鄉哪裡有偏鄉屏東縣三分之二的國中小屬於偏鄉的學校我們偏鄉的學校不是經費少而已"},{"start":22306.781,"end":22334.043,"text":"連老師都留不住院長你為什麼認為我們偏鄉為什麼老師留不住你覺得呢什麼原因我不知道薪水比較低嗎一個是地方的生活的條件以及他整個財政狀況可以資助的教育資源等等生活機能不變生活機能不變取決於公共建設我們來看醫療資源我們的醫缺也是最大的破口今天沒有衛福部在我要告訴你"},{"start":22334.54,"end":22363.138,"text":"目前台北市他的醫院的分佈跟我屏東天差地遠差距絕對不是台北市人口跟屏東人口的三倍四倍來咀嚼什麼原因我們再告訴你今天報紙上寫蔣萬安市長宣布台北市的兒童學童可以喝學童奶之前學童奶不是全國補助嗎院長後來中央停掉了嘛為什麼要全國補助我屏東付不起啊要靠中央補助啊中央補助我就沒辦法喝了那為什麼台北可以喝"},{"start":22364.636,"end":22387.631,"text":"你認為是不是台北比較有錢台北的財政狀況確實比較好不是 台北也不是因為他有錢台北是因為什麼 他發兌換券學童可以拿著兌換券去便利超商換我們之所以中央把學童奶停下來不是中央不願付這筆錢是因為我屏東沒有辦法冷面去支持每個學校的老師發給學生每天一瓶奶"},{"start":22388.732,"end":22413.163,"text":"台北為什麼可以做到台北有7-11我滿洲鄉只有一個便利超商你叫我滿洲鄉的小孩你中央支持我學銅奶的經費我也喝不到院長知道原因了嗎所以當時農業部提過各地的不同狀況因地制宜有需要這方補助的農業部還是會設法那我覺得這個事情由地方來主辦會更貼近地方真正的情況你還是沒有了解我的問題"},{"start":22414.284,"end":22429.25,"text":"今天台北是能發學童奶不是台北的財政特別好這只是原因之一台北有全國最便利的便利超商的分布命度最高台北是這種不用投資冷鏈他只要花錢給券學童就會換到牛奶"},{"start":22429.75,"end":22444.544,"text":"我屏東縣就算你中央支持我錢我沒有辦法買冷鏈我的學童沒辦法在滿洲鄉唯一的便利超商換學童奶了解了沒有這就是城鄉發產差距對人民造成的不公平我們來看一下"},{"start":22445.834,"end":22467.512,"text":"我們在偏鄉地區如果財政得不到中央政府用一般性補助款來幫我們調節我們的教育人員沒有人要去我們的醫師沒有人要去我們的人民得不到教育跟醫療的一個普及化的服務就算你家籍再高因為生活技能差沒有便利超商他們不願意去怎麼辦必須從我們基礎的財政著手"},{"start":22468.206,"end":22485.906,"text":"所以非督地區交通的子女安全問題無法改善財政收支劃分是不是要呼籲包括朝野各政黨不要自私站在台灣均衡發展前提之下要不要給中央足夠的財力來解決城鄉發展不均各地方政府所需的差異來補強是不是要這樣做"},{"start":22486.926,"end":22508.034,"text":"我們就是願意從這個角度來討論檢討財政收支發放法但新的財政收支發放法顯然無法達到委員剛剛所希望的那樣的一個調整所以院長你們要跟全國的人民講我們也會講但是我們任憑這個方式惡化下去之後台灣只會變成天堂更低的兩極化包括我們看到這個問題"},{"start":22509.594,"end":22529.127,"text":"這個問題請回去 請財政部要求公務銀行要特別注意不要讓親親安貸款讓首購族被限貸令造成斷頭最後我的結論 兩個請院長答應中央政府對地方的財政分媒補助應該改善呈現下去是不是要支持 院長是不是要支持 那是不是我們統計資訊請主席長改變我們的統計資訊發布貼近人民的需求"},{"start":22539.517,"end":22561.449,"text":"好謝謝鍾嘉賓委員的質詢謝謝卓院長相關部會首長的備詢好接下來我們請王宏威委員質詢鄭天才委員請準備"},{"start":22568.388,"end":22594.478,"text":"謝謝主席 請院長和主席長麻煩再請卓院長 主席長備詢謝謝 王委員好院長好 主席長好中央政府總預算現在聽說是在8月21號就會確定 是不是目前在努力中"},{"start":22595.399,"end":22621.82,"text":"努力中今天我們的專案報告其實非常多的地方政府非常關心在地方補助款的部分我想請問一下因為根據我們財化法新修正的第30條第三項很確定的就是中央政府給予地方政府的一般性補助款金額不得少於修正施行前一年度的預算編列數"},{"start":22623.121,"end":22645.971,"text":"本來我們今年度的一般補助款原來是2501億但是後來行政院就刪除都等比例27%的刪除所以整個的金額下降到1865億元當然我們現在在這個會期我們希望能夠辦理追加回來636億"},{"start":22647.972,"end":22668.546,"text":"好那我現在要請教因為不是只有行政院要編總預算各地方政府現在事實上也在編地方政府的預算那我想請問一下那麼按照新施行的這個才化法我們明年地方補助款的基準到底是2501億還是現在被你們砍掉的1865億我們是用2501億去編"},{"start":22677.573,"end":22682.277,"text":"所以明年度總體的地方政府的一般補儲款總體不會低於2,501億確定嗎"},{"start":22688.102,"end":22711.936,"text":"確定 因為這個全部都是有記錄的因為所有地方政府他們現在都惶惶不可終日這個部分我就非常肯定因為我很怕你們把它砍掉了之後我還要是兩句話要說立法院用這種方式限定地方補助館的金額確實是前所未見但是我們基於中央地方長年來這樣的財政的合作我們認為今年250億"},{"start":22715.058,"end":22744.278,"text":"到明年如果維持這樣的數字讓地方的發展能夠均衡但是我們很希望把636億補回來那麼這個均衡就是持續下去當然一個是今年636億因為你們原來就已經核准因為對不起我下面還有很多題目因為我要一個一個確認因為我問了一些地方政府他們現在編預算大家編的其實方式都不一樣好 那另外就是以明年度的總預算是不是按照新版才化法來做編列"},{"start":22745.919,"end":22755.79,"text":"總統已經公告新版裁判法生效我們依照新版裁判法來編列但是我要跟委員稱實的報告這個過程非常非常的困難"},{"start":22757.239,"end":22783.542,"text":"我只要確定這一點因為我所了解有的有的縣市政府是用新版有的用舊版現在很混亂因為我們在編預算他們也在編預算所以我就是要院長一句話以明年度的中央政府總預算的編列的這個基礎是按照新版才化法也就是今年所總統府公告的新版才化法來做編列對不對"},{"start":22785.031,"end":22810.556,"text":"對 所以要請委員提亮中央政府必須大量舉債好 那舉債我現在就要開始來問你了因為我們其實不是只有財化法的施行而已因為其實財化法的編列不會造成整個大量舉債這只是你的左手放到右手一個政府是整體的"},{"start":22811.716,"end":22832.914,"text":"只是從中央政府的統籌款原來是留在中央用還是地方政府用但是其實我們現在面臨到你們可能未來有比較舉債的壓力是來自於第一個就是我們剛剛通過的就是風災重建的特別條例這個是特別預算"},{"start":22833.675,"end":22848.713,"text":"另外就是因應美國貿易關稅的特別預算現在本來我們是5450億你們把它增加到5900億這個部分也要部分再用取債的部分部分不是全數"},{"start":22850.945,"end":22877.192,"text":"還有一個那個恐怕是最沉重的就是因為美國要求我們提高我們的軍購的支出到3%現在行政院一直都有傳言你們在下個會期會送來軍購的特別預算軍購特別預算按照過去的慣例以及現在的實況都要用舉債的方式"},{"start":22878.012,"end":22883.412,"text":"居購特別預算是不是都要用特別預算的兩個財源就是舉債跟以用稅計剩餘"},{"start":22884.642,"end":22910.784,"text":"最近剩餘應該差不多了那我想請問因為前兩天有媒體報導就是我們現在我剛才講的包含中央政府總預算還有我們後來陸陸續續的特別預算追加預算還有軍購特別預算軍購可能到六七千億之多所以我們有可能未來舉債的金額會高達一兆元是不是"},{"start":22911.949,"end":22929.244,"text":"是嗎 這個數字有沒有很偏離明年中央政府總預算的舉債會接近4000億其他的舉債包括特別預算今年我們變成特別預算那還算今年的不算在明年中央政府總預算我們今年的丹納斯颱風的600億以及剛剛委員所說任性條例的"},{"start":22929.784,"end":22953.255,"text":"這樣加起來有1500億以下今年度1500億 再多增加去1500億明年你說的4000億 那特別預算呢特別預算目前我們還沒有進入到正式如果軍購特別預算超過6000億的話那舉債一定超過一兆 對不對我這樣講的沒有錯吧"},{"start":22954.564,"end":22981.666,"text":"簡單的數學如果是這樣的數字加起來沒有錯所以其實我剛才講的以這個不管是舉債的規模或者是我們的國防支出因為現在以今年來講我們國防預算佔GDP大概2.45%6470億這個也包含了特別預算的支出那麼如果明年度要達到GDP的3%就要超過8000億沒有錯吧"},{"start":22984.679,"end":23008.404,"text":"國防預算要超過8000億所以這才是真正的壓力來了真正的壓力那我想請問院長到時候這些不管高額舉債特別是國防支出的部分會不會排擠掉我們原來的包含教文社福跟經濟發展的支出的這些預算"},{"start":23009.953,"end":23022.783,"text":"這有兩個問題第一個就是我們除了國防的舉債特別預算之外我們像過去的前瞻等等重大的國內的基礎建設等等我們也有必須要透過特別預算來舉債的也有可能"},{"start":23023.359,"end":23040.529,"text":"另外就是給地方的將近4000億左右的統籌分配稅款應該要代據很多的市權讓地方共同來承擔這樣才不能 剛剛委員說得很好左手交給右手 不能只交錢也要交市權"},{"start":23043.041,"end":23058.173,"text":"我所了解你們現在其實已經在打算盤了要求地方提高計劃型補助的自籌款的比例因為我現在不在這邊進入很細節的部分"},{"start":23058.914,"end":23081.748,"text":"但是我覺得就是我們才化法當時為什麼要修正因為這是超過四分之一世紀超過25年沒有修正中央早就應該把錢放下去一直沒有放下去所以你現在看起來好像金額很龐大但是這是累積了25年本來就應該下放給地方但是一直沒有下放給地方的好"},{"start":23082.168,"end":23109.445,"text":"我們今天談到預算的問題有一個問題其實我覺得非常嚴重它還涉及到弊端最近我們在討論檢討也就是政府相關機關不管是標案或者是補助款對於文化團體會文化人結果勞動部所屬的就業安定基金對零日工級的導演"},{"start":23110.385,"end":23117.414,"text":"不是這部影片《鄰日攻擊》的導演羅景任團體他三年補助了2872萬元"},{"start":23124.489,"end":23152.06,"text":"那麼昨天勞動部立刻來一個聲明稿一個偷換概念的聲明稿說勞動部嚴正聲明本部並無補助淋浴攻擊拍攝之相關計畫說相關勞工業務的宣傳均依法依規本領沒有政治考量還叫有心人士不要刻意做連結和影射第一個我說這是偷換概念"},{"start":23154.112,"end":23177.209,"text":"這次完全沒有提到救安基金去補助凌日攻擊而是補助凌日攻擊的導演羅景任的團體那麼他所補助一共是三支勞動節的形象影片包含2022年阿訪的洗衣店2023年紙紮篇2024年勞動萬歲搬家篇看到沒有連續三年"},{"start":23184.109,"end":23209.243,"text":"勞動部包庇 袒護為什麼說第一個偷換概念沒有人說你去補助這個臨日供給而是這個導演更重要的是院長我在這邊講希望你能夠立刻向立做行政策查第一個就業安定清清過去的濫用服用事實上是不只一樁"},{"start":23210.92,"end":23234.392,"text":"過去的謝宜蓉就是勞動署的北區署長她因為用救安基金來裝潢她的辦公室已經被起訴了然後過去的勞動部長許明琛亂用就業安定基金來做演唱會也被起訴了對不起 沒有被起訴還在被調查之中那麼我們的沈記長在"},{"start":23236.033,"end":23261.935,"text":"立法院被尋的時候曾經直接說就業安定基金沒有符合用途這些高達五千萬元以上這個是在立法院就是在您坐的位置上您站的位置上我們的審計長直接直指就安基金有濫用服用超過五千萬元以上好院長你知道嗎這個案子"},{"start":23265.13,"end":23280.361,"text":"羅景樂團隊的這個案子就恰恰是我們審計部調查勞動部所屬的救安基金相關不符合相關規定的其中的一項"},{"start":23283.566,"end":23298.836,"text":"我希望能不能趕快把它抄起來這已經涉及弊案也就是說當時審計部去調查勞動部救安基金在服用濫用而且不符合規定的時候就直接指出勞動部為製作111年勞動節主題影片辦理採購招標"},{"start":23304.96,"end":23323.14,"text":"他沒有另按招包錶而是用廠商的開口契約而這個開口契約當時原來這個的承諾開口契約的承諾是要35次的影片兩場公關活動廣告拖播還有網路拖播總金額高達1069萬"},{"start":23325.885,"end":23352.724,"text":"可是最後他核給也就勞動部最後採購只有一部影片一個記者會就直接核給他了當時這已經被審計部已經挑出來這屬於用途不符合相關規定所以今天這個案子被爆料之後勞動部竟然用通換概念的方式竟然用混搖視聽轉移焦點的方式"},{"start":23356.328,"end":23378.421,"text":"院長這實在不能讓人接受而審計部已經要求就業安定基金要撥補就是你要回撥這五千多萬因為審計部不認這五千多萬那我剛才從上午開始就在講說什麼為什麼要刪預算該刪就要刪那我先直接告訴你"},{"start":23379.537,"end":23387.922,"text":"那五千多萬是審計部要求勞動部要把它回補回來結果勞動部說怎麼回補呢"},{"start":23391.618,"end":23416.208,"text":"他又要向行政院要錢又要用公務預算要錢要跟納稅人要錢也就是這五千多萬這裡面可能還有弊案還有行政書司但是呢他們在下年度要跟行政院要錢院長我在這邊直接跟你講如果你們沒有徹查這五千多案到底有沒有人模不章的問題"},{"start":23417.808,"end":23442.536,"text":"這五千多萬你們編回來我一樣把它刪掉啊該刪就要刪 您同不同意數月前請洪森岸來擔任部長我要講兩件事一個是處理當時所謂的同仁之間對待的這個所謂霸凌問題提高士氣第二個就是把就業安定基金充分用在正式的用途上面過去如果有所不當不宜要全數改回"},{"start":23443.103,"end":23463.608,"text":"我願意我們跟委員一樣我們高標準來要求勞動部高標準來監視院長要不要查這個案子過去已經發生的問題我們一定要把它做個很清楚的了解這個錯誤不會讓它延續進行下來所以過去的案子也跟臨日攻擊完全無關這是兩回事"},{"start":23465.269,"end":23487.944,"text":"確實是他的導演團體啊所以我意思說你願不願意去徹查這個案子這個導演在過去如果承接勞動部或相關部會的其他的這些契約案有任何不當的地方我們當然一一檢討有所不法我們依法辦理如果是合法的就不要影響到未來合作的情況如果你沒有調查沒有把責任釐清然後又要濫編預算的話對不起所以我想請主委問一下招標者來監督這個勞動部"},{"start":23495.267,"end":23512.681,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員的質詢謝謝卓院長 主席長備詢 謝謝接下來院長先喝口水吧好 接下來我們請鄭天才委員質詢邱政軍委員請準備韓院長"},{"start":23524.341,"end":23552.465,"text":"有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢卓院長 辛苦了你好嗎的意思我們今天談這個114年度跟總預算的審查之後"},{"start":23553.197,"end":23581.87,"text":"所涉及的今天的議題所以我們還是要回顧一下這個114年度總預算審查的一個情形也作為因為下禮拜很重要的追加預算的審查都會跟這個114年度總預算當初立法院在韓國瑜院長這個召集"},{"start":23582.472,"end":23608.507,"text":"朝野協商的時候的一個狀況我們看這個當初這個在今年1月15號16號甚至韓國瑜院長說如果兩天不夠禮拜六禮拜天還可以加開但是在這個過程當中就是非常非常的不順利"},{"start":23609.896,"end":23627.769,"text":"幾乎應該是完全沒有審正式去審這個114年度的總預算跟過去因為我過去當公務員很久也常來立法院也當了好幾年的立法委員這個"},{"start":23630.885,"end":23654.72,"text":"立法院院長主持朝野協商就是怎麼樣把這個大家的意見能夠做一個溝通說明讓行政院相關的部會做很好的說明之後能夠調整這個刪減的額度這個是一個很重要的一個過程但是這一次"},{"start":23655.732,"end":23675.278,"text":"今年的一月中旬卻沒辦法完成這樣的一個情況甚至我們韓國瑜院長甚至在預算三讀通過之後還召開了這個茶葉協商也請這個立法行政院來說明當韓院長請這個我們的"},{"start":23680.785,"end":23709.867,"text":"行政院秘書長來說明的時候我們柯總召竟然不讓他說明所以就這樣產生這樣的一個問題才會造成現在的一個狀況後來之後才發現原來是去年1月13號就定調為了要罷免原來總預算的審查成為一個罷免的一個素材之一"},{"start":23711.048,"end":23733.502,"text":"所以這個部分是我們我之所以要去回顧這個部分因為下禮拜又要急診對立法院來講對不對我們要刪這個你要追加預算所以我們要運用智慧要多溝通 多協調這個部分是一個先回顧"},{"start":23734.622,"end":23756.59,"text":"如果誠如鄭委員所說的那個場景我們發覺我們應該發覺近兩個禮拜以來立法院的協商氣氛是好的是有進展的那我們就要努力來維持這樣好的狀況我們把它扭轉回來這也就是我說的我們盡量來調整行政立法兩院互動的模式我也很樂意看到這樣的一個進步"},{"start":23758.591,"end":23784.012,"text":"這個反正都溝通了就行政部門而言了過去我當無論是當處長或是常務副主委常常到各個委員的辦公室去溝通說明當然院長不需要但是怎麼樣去跟各黨團都溝通都說明這是一個必要的好我們看這個原住民族第七基本設施維持費這個是今天的這個"},{"start":23786.521,"end":23813.169,"text":"報告的一個案子之一我們看這個今天院長的報告裡面也提到全額撥付這個撥付全額撥付我們回顧一下這個在民國89年520陳水扁總統上任之後第一任的主任委員 尤哈尼主任委員在民國90年的期間"},{"start":23815.74,"end":23844.481,"text":"山地鄉 沿鄉的鄉長到台北來陳情陳情什麼呢是因為有部分的縣長克扣了這個統籌應該要分給要撥給這個鄉山地鄉的這些經費所以他們來陳情當時的尤哈尼主任委員請我去協調行政院主計總署去協調之後同意"},{"start":23846.696,"end":23870.716,"text":"從91年度開始由嚴明會來編列這個經費而這樣的一個事情的宣布我們就安排正好那一年民國90年張俊雄院長要去致詞有關我們嚴明會所辦的全國原住民族行政會議在那個場合宣布由嚴明會每年編列5億4600萬元"},{"start":23874.95,"end":23900.15,"text":"給我們的延鄉作為這預算書這個是91年度的預算書為什麼要特別把預算書寫出來呢就是在呈現預算書的說明寫得很清楚基本財政收支差短就是要補助延鄉的基本財政收支差短所以這個是一個對延鄉來講是一個很重要的一個一筆經費"},{"start":23902.921,"end":23928.715,"text":"所以我們很遺憾的就是說這個怎麼會因為總預算認為被刪了然後我們演兵會的預算我們並沒有刪這筆經費那演兵會竟然在今年的2月27號當然他奉一定是奉行政院的指示或是主計總署的指示要去處理所以扣減了50%本席"},{"start":23932.765,"end":23938.587,"text":"從3月24號、3月25號、4月14號、5月15、5月28、6月4號、6月17、6月24不斷的質詢協調發文尤其是我們主計長我質詢了好幾次主計總署發文的說明是說因為114年度立法院審查的時候刪減"},{"start":23957.97,"end":23972.055,"text":"通案刪減之後要自行調整636億636億所以這個也被牽連到所以我就質詢質詢主計長我說一般性補助款被刪減的636億被行政院自行刪減的636億"},{"start":23985.851,"end":24011.879,"text":"再加上基本設施維持費3億2千就是639億多了那不超過了嗎超越三減總數所以行政院的主席總署很快的就請言明會所以言明會在6月24號就發文核定撥付這個原來被扣減的這個3億2千萬"},{"start":24016.051,"end":24042.388,"text":"我之所以要提這個事情已經解決的事情 為什麼要提我的意思是說 延民會也要堅持要去跟主計總署說明 要去行政院說明這個是為了延鄉的財政收支的差短所以這個不應該去刪減 扣減這個部分只做一個這樣的一個"},{"start":24043.232,"end":24070.446,"text":"案例讓我們園民會但是如果我們從這個你的今天行政院的報告裡面到了8月才撥那麼少真的是要加快的撥款 可以嗎OK 跟委員報告我們就只是動靜不是把它扣起來第二個就是說我們2月27號就核定到現在我們55個公所還有10個公所還沒有報來"},{"start":24075.508,"end":24092.155,"text":"鄉長反映的就是沒有了這個錢沒有了這個錢因為整個氛圍就是這樣好不好 所以這個部分他們誤會因為到現在我們也全部都核定還有只有目前第二期也只有十個鄉公所送完而已我們會趕快來請公所趕快來提報接下來還是要請主計長"},{"start":24101.658,"end":24123.37,"text":"請主席長備詢 主委就先回座我們今天談的這個114年度地方政府制一般性補助款行政院5月16號的公文修正了這個補助地方一般性補助款的額度總共"},{"start":24127.079,"end":24151.785,"text":"636億平均27.3%對地方來說是一個很大的一個困難那事實上如果我們看這個中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法這個第一條法律的授權是財政收支劃分法還有地方制度法的一個授權訂定的第二條"},{"start":24153.26,"end":24177.555,"text":"正式編制警政消防人員超期加班費就要從這邊來支應第二條第三項第三目依國民年金法農民健康保險條例老年農民福利津貼暫行條例集中低收入戶老人生活津貼法體辦法等相關法規因為在這些法規裡面"},{"start":24178.84,"end":24202.678,"text":"有明定中央要編多少的比例地方要編多少的比例從這條條文就可以證明它是法律義務支出法律義務支出這個第三條第一項也是這樣針對教育社會福利的一個支出行政院"},{"start":24204.271,"end":24231.262,"text":"發文給立法院針對114年度總預算送來的時候在去年的8月底送來的時候行政院主計總署的明細表也特別列舉依法律義務支出的明細表是包含了一般性的補助款這個是非常的明確我們看民進黨1月21號的臉書"},{"start":24234.485,"end":24261.441,"text":"民進黨1月21號的臉書也認證了立法院沒有刪減一般性不足他也認定了這個是中央法定的支出報告所以我們這樣子來看這個案子最主要就是要談的是什麼呢這個就是我們要回顧為什麼剛才要回顧就是沒有溝通嘛"},{"start":24262.988,"end":24284.542,"text":"本來可以溝通的幾十年來立法院在審查總預算都已經有這個慣例了經過溝通之後都不會那麼硬都是可以溝通的我再一次的因為我沒有機會溝通下禮拜很重要"},{"start":24286.022,"end":24313.87,"text":"下禮拜很重要所以這個部分無論是針對這個追加預算到底哪些應該是適合追加到底應該就立法院的立場就行政院的立場怎麼去這是一個我們韓國瑜院長也要傷腦筋的地方所以大家都要傷腦筋來去解決這個這樣的一個問題所以"},{"start":24315.868,"end":24344.394,"text":"但再怎麼樣都要與人民的福祉最為優先的一個考量好 我們這個現在剩下一分鐘多的我就還是要談一下我們現在最重要就原住民族而言或平埔原住民而言現在目前最重要的就是這個"},{"start":24346.229,"end":24372.966,"text":"平埔原住民族群身份法我一直在拜託這個內政委員會的召委也排了 也開了 也協調了剩下還要排這個協商 黨團協商這個日期已經很迫切因為按照司法院的憲法法庭的判決"},{"start":24374.181,"end":24403.219,"text":"直到10月大家都知道9月10月總諮詢也不會有法案的審查所以下禮拜以前是很重要但是第一個預算要先編最起碼人數是多少呢按照內支部的估算是98萬但是一開始登記的話可能不會那麼多就以台南來講"},{"start":24404.577,"end":24432.898,"text":"他們都已經登記了台南在復政事務所都登記了在賴總統當市長的時候就開始登記了就5000多人了所以我們園民會曾主委的預估是今年年底以前會有失望預算要編列要請主席長要請院長能夠支持因為預算的編列通常按照時程的話就是這個禮拜"},{"start":24434.413,"end":24449.353,"text":"就要因為按照規定就是8月底已經要送到立法院所以這個部分務必要去支持 好不好好 謝謝鄭天才委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長備詢 謝謝"},{"start":24460.137,"end":24482.909,"text":"接下來我們請邱正均委員質詢陳廷飛委員請準備主席好我們有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":24493.171,"end":24516.712,"text":"邱委員好 院長好首先我要代表苗栗縣謝謝院長在這一次一般性補助款給苗栗的援助當然也謝謝我們陳主席長的聯繫當然這個事情是一歸一 二歸二我還是要把這個事情把它理清楚我請院長我們先看一下我們確認一下我們這個圓餅圖"},{"start":24520.967,"end":24550.159,"text":"那灰色的部分是我們中央法定的支出中央法定支出包括公務員薪水以及其他法律義務支出還有就是一般性的補助款那這些是立法院不能刪行政院也不能刪不能隨意變動的還有地方的計畫型補助是這樣嗎以剛剛那個圖來看各種補助都會規定他應該有所補助的項目但是補助的"},{"start":24551.192,"end":24562.932,"text":"比例是行政院跟地方可以在透過財政結構的不同而加以討論出來的行政院認為已經沒有多餘的財源的時候地方財源也在"},{"start":24564.136,"end":24585.152,"text":"有所爭域那我們就會有這個調整的空間所以這個是在補助的項目當中我們做一些拙減補助而已我們再講我們再看另外一張文字敘述洪匡的部分有沒有寫錯他說公務員薪資及已簽約需履約的等法律義務支出"},{"start":24585.732,"end":24613.055,"text":"加上2500億一般性補助款都是行政和立法部門不能變動的這個部分應該是沒有彈性中央法定支出這樣有寫錯嗎但是它是一個項目的指定它並沒有定額或是定比例所以額數比例就是一個行政院依照政府國家財政的結構來調整因為你們來的公文裡面就叫我們不能動了為什麼你們自己還在動呢"},{"start":24615.262,"end":24639.991,"text":"對不起行政院怎麼可以去刪呢我要問的是這個就是因為立法院要求行政院自行刪除636億我們可以自行調整的部分我們就經過很多次的計算之後我們盤點出來各項可能立法院有刪除嗎立法院沒有刪除立法院沒有刪除的地方是這個一般是補助款立法院要求行政院自行調整那你們不會調啊"},{"start":24641.923,"end":24667.836,"text":"你們自己不會刪嗎還是說我們來幫你刪地方信 一般信補助款立法院一塊錢都沒有動的原因有兩個一個是遵循法的原則另一個是我們都知道這些經費對地方來講是非常重要的但行政院跟我們認為的中華民國的法律不太一樣都會自己發明解釋變成民進黨政府的抄議創新版"},{"start":24668.596,"end":24694.994,"text":"3月21號的財化法總統公告以後主計處4月23號發的這張公文給地方說中央對地方的一般性補助款要扣而且主計說當初院方給三個方案一個是三在席一個是三地方補助款跟在席各辦另外一個是三地方補助款我們院長是直接拍板就是三地方補助款這樣對吧這樣主計的說法對不對"},{"start":24698.411,"end":24727.066,"text":"我們實際很多的方案才去做一個模擬看什麼樣的刪減對我們現在這個行政體系在運作方面最不會有困難所以後來才決定你選擇三地方補助款這個來講說就第一次違法了同時也說明院長感受不到地方的需求所以院長我認為說你不能說我們在野黨不瞭解地方也不瞭解地方政府的需求"},{"start":24729.962,"end":24752.668,"text":"當初在刪減中央政府總預算的時候這種需求何在呢對 你現在要用追加預算來平息民怨但是又拿不出合法的預算用預算法79條的理由來追加就已經是第二次違法了你現在用這個來追加也是陷害我們在野黨不義嘛我們是依照預算法來辦理依照預算法的內容規定來辦理追加預算是讓你們統三 讓行政院好做事"},{"start":24753.362,"end":24775.164,"text":"對不對那我們也都知道這筆錢不能刪可是你偏偏去刪了這一個現在拿回來補助如果我們給你通過如果給你通過那就失去我們原本預算的意義如果不過你就說我們自己刪的往年有統三第一個數額沒這麼大統三的結果都是經由兩院協調出來的而不是像今年"},{"start":24775.664,"end":24796.321,"text":"金額這麼龐大而且不經過跟行政院的協調就要求行政院自行刪除你一直說沒有辦法刪嘛我來跟你講啦你不會刪我來幫你刪就是說我們內政部長不是說嗎那個中華人民共和國是一個國家那就是外交部了嘛對不對那所以陸委會所以這件事情就是外交部的事陸委會是不是就會裁撤了"},{"start":24797.882,"end":24820.464,"text":"這樣就有80幾萬外交部變端交部而且還不懂國際禮儀預算這麼多也沒有發揮功能所以先把中華民國的人民照顧好砍一砍幾十億也有文化部拿錢太多拿去補助罷免文宣沒有善盡驗收的職責計畫可以砍一砍至少幾十億每個部會都有負責治安的單位"},{"start":24822.826,"end":24848.346,"text":"我們都不需要治安民眾也認為我們速發部是酬庸的單位連民進黨委員都說速發部只有總機的功能所以我們國家都不需要治安所以就直接把它廢掉你不是說每個部會都有了嗎這樣就有300多億光電 光儲 風電 開發問題一堆你們不先檢討還要硬推經濟部把這些標案跟開發先砍掉就好了就上百億我相信你會得到掌聲 對不對"},{"start":24849.13,"end":24877.679,"text":"邱委員這句話如果列入國會紀錄將來來檢討一定有很多人會拿這個來當做一個非常可笑的一個內容你要把國家的能源政策全部刪掉外交部全部刪掉自然全部刪掉你可以檢討沒有叫你全部刪掉我沒有叫你裁撤外交部你要搞清楚我是叫你裁撤陸委會把陸委會裁撤掉對啊你不是說是國對國關係不是嗎那為什麼不撤掉呢那再來看"},{"start":24879.301,"end":24901.002,"text":"再來看我們一個影片萊爾校長說不是多數贏就可以這有符合你現在的中心思想嗎對不起 我不知曉得你這個話是從哪裡來的院長你以現在的認知中華民國是民主國家嗎今天我們可以站在這裡對話我們就是一個民主國家"},{"start":24902.102,"end":24924.927,"text":"所以你也不認同萊爾校長講的話嘛我不知道你在講的是誰我沒有說他是誰就是萊爾校長我不知道這個人你說的是誰沒有看過是不是沒有看過待會再放一次這是一個影片啊不然待會我加到你的like可以嗎我加到你的like裡面可以嗎加到我的like裡面"},{"start":24926.164,"end":24950.589,"text":"好不好 不要講這個啦那也不用去說你認不認識我只是問你說你認不認同他的話嘛因為8月1號立法院的決議要求行政院主計處必須依照立法院當初刪減的總預算的決議去調整這個部會的預算同時立即撥付地方的一般性補助款"},{"start":24951.269,"end":24977.839,"text":"那當天表決結果有57人贊成 48人反對 一人棄權你現在又不要照這個表決的結果來執行所以是民進黨說可以才可以是嗎我不知道表決結果的執行但是我今天送出來的最佳預算就是在解決共同的問題你那個是還是不承認你當初的錯啊你還是把這個東西丟回來給我們把這個球丟來丟去 這樣有意思嗎"},{"start":24978.539,"end":24996.973,"text":"我只是不能錯上加錯原始的錯到了我們身上再加一個錯這不能動的就是不能動如果你其他的部會我們常常講 講了好幾次如果說你認為其他部會有些自在難行的部分你可以針對這件事情來追加你這樣整包丟回來就有點不尊重立法院了"},{"start":24997.273,"end":25024.56,"text":"這也是跟各部會商討過有各部會提出需要追加的預算程序跟內容所以依照這個來提出的878億的追加預算不知道你會用光劍不知道你什麼時候還學的茅山法術用這個借出黃魂都會的預算法有告訴你可以這樣做嗎就是說你說這個叫解決問題茅山道士的這個借出黃魂也可以叫做延續生命 對不對"},{"start":25026.459,"end":25031.9,"text":"今天我們討論的是如何解決各部分跟地方的問題我們是在彌補立法院刪減預算之後造成行政院我們是在彌補立法院刪減預算之後行政院所造成的自然難行"},{"start":25050.385,"end":25071.304,"text":"你們想挑戰人民的底線所以我提出的方式 你們的耐性還剩下多少提出的方式是在彌補立法院造成刪減預算之後行政院的自在難行你們就是想只要錢離開以後每年都可以先刪減地方補助款我們在這邊是一步一步都不能退我也希望立法院以後審查預算不得再用這樣的方式"},{"start":25072.774,"end":25097.976,"text":"違反憲法的精神規定而且要行政院就推下去636億這樣的宣言應該有的一般性補助款一毛錢都不能少而且你們沒有權力苛扣因為這是依法編列的所以在8月1號的表決但是很遺憾我看不到我們民進黨委員不願意跟地方站在一起你應該很清楚這不是中央的恩賜而是依法本來就應該足而撥付給地方的錢"},{"start":25099.302,"end":25118.209,"text":"這點沒有討價還價的空間我希望院長今天提出的追加預算就是希望中央跟行政立法兩位共同為中央跟地方解決問題極權的國家希望這個院長你們再思考一下那另外我再講財化法我直接問我剛剛我有看了一下"},{"start":25120.692,"end":25146.937,"text":"王文威委員剛剛他的質詢跟我的題目差不多就是說我直接問你115年的總預算編列的依據是不是用新的修正的才化法才化法來上路來編列明年的總預算我們是依照總統所公告的才化法的內容來編列沒有錯所以剛剛我有聽到就是說我們是以前2501億來做基底是這樣嗎"},{"start":25152.318,"end":25181.576,"text":"一般性補助是在審查的時候在修法的時候有下了這麼一條規定這也是前所未有的我覺得這個也是侵犯行政院編列預算的權利但是已經法律已經生效了我們另外試圖用其他的方式來做做其他的救濟但是我們還是依照總統所公佈的財化法生效的財化法財化法的文字清清楚楚寫了不得低於這個前一年的預算這也是過去所沒有過的一種"},{"start":25183.169,"end":25201.108,"text":"前置行政院編列預算權力的一種方式這一點你們照做我是給你們肯定我也覺得這是對的那我希望說在這個前提之下我們把這個預算好好的整理出來主席長我也可以跟您講就是說"},{"start":25201.912,"end":25229.318,"text":"如果在這個方面你們編列之後我碰到什麼問題我們在野黨的立委我相信都是大門打開來可以坐下來好好談如果你們碰到的問題真的是我們認為你能說服大家說這個問題確實存在我們大家都很願意坐下來談我希望行政院跟立法院不是對立的單位也不是兩個對立的一個機關我們是為這個國家為這個地方來好好做事情這樣可以嗎"},{"start":25230.95,"end":25260.232,"text":"像這次我們的風災如果我們有多的稅計剩餘我們可以直接用稅計剩餘來編列特別預算那現在我們必須舉債再如我們日前到苗栗去關於這種地方道路的開通我們現在還有能力來協助地方未來這種能力顯然喪失了所以我剛剛聽王國威委員的時候您有講到我們的就是計畫型的補助會做調整對吧是這樣嗎 其他還有沒有調整的部分主席想請問一下還有沒有調整的部分"},{"start":25261.397,"end":25273.206,"text":"準備中 在籌備中已經8月底要送出來了嘛 剩下幾天餒對 8月29送你可以先透露嘛 你大概會調整什麼我們還在"},{"start":25275.355,"end":25300.474,"text":"計劃型補助我認同如果你其他的錢都是照那個我們講的一開始這樣編列的時候那我也贊成說這個計劃型補助可以做調整這個當然是本來就是可以的這個因為地方有錢了你們本來就是可以去做這個調整這個我是支持的委員很清楚特別統籌統籌分配稅款會多4000億左右到地方去分配"},{"start":25301.653,"end":25329.294,"text":"所以這個分配到地方去地方到底要做什麼事情我前兩天聽到了就是說可能行政院就會把這個教育基金或者是我們的一般性補助款直接拿掉原本該給我們的你不給我們了然後再從這個多的從這個財化法裡面統統分配稅款裡面加在比如說苗栗縣多137億那一般性補助款是50億教育基金是40億那整個90億扣掉之後我們多了47億"},{"start":25331.315,"end":25346.08,"text":"這個觀念我不希望看到這樣子我們還在每個縣市不同的狀況最後還在盤整當中你原本的一般性的補助款該給的就是要給那其他計劃型的提的中央的政策的我覺得這個比例的分攤我覺得是可以談的"},{"start":25348.54,"end":25371.27,"text":"主席總署來把委員的意見列入參考好不好那我就麻煩主席長不要希望說這個月底的時候我們看到的是一個很好的結果那我也相信這樣有助於我們朝野的這個和諧國家的進步好不好也請委員提亮中央政府目前遇到編列預算極大的困難謝謝謝謝邱政軍委員的質詢謝謝委員長相關部會首長的備詢謝謝"},{"start":25378.666,"end":25406.112,"text":"接下來我們會請下午第一階段最後一位質詢的委員陳庭菲委員質詢之後我們會休息十分鐘再次謝謝麥玉珍委員 林倩琦委員一直參與我們今天的專案討論現在請陳庭菲委員請質詢謝謝院長我們是不是請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":25417.561,"end":25436.401,"text":"陳委員好院長我剛剛聽了很多委員的質詢我發現大家好像都失憶了就是說為什麼我們刪一般性補助款行政院為什麼會刪為什麼我們是著刪一般性補助款25%左右為什麼"},{"start":25438.513,"end":25458.122,"text":"整個中央政府總預算在今年的審查過程當中被刪減2076億其中要我們自行刪減636億行政院已經無法在1439億之外再自行刪減636億所以我們才行事讓跟地方跟中央共同度過這個難關所以用這樣平均分配的方式"},{"start":25458.803,"end":25483.318,"text":"所以是因為國民黨在野黨刪了我們行政院的預算還要我們自行調整我們已經沒有辦法再調整了所以不得不我們也很反抗啊因為所有的縣市都有不論是國民黨執政的民進黨執政的全部都刪台南市被刪了51億"},{"start":25485.555,"end":25490.262,"text":"我告訴你這五十億對我們台南來講有多大的困難"},{"start":25491.809,"end":25520.358,"text":"我們在這當中我們目前必須控管在各單位30%而且人員預缺不補現在人非常重要沒有人怎麼做事我們卻必須控管預缺不補還有沒有發包的工程農水路重不重要很重要啊還有我們區域排水整治改善工程重不重要很重要"},{"start":25521.538,"end":25548.776,"text":"現在極端氣候水對我們來講治水非常重要還有我們的新闢道路全民運動館老舊工業區的更改這個更改工程還有市場新整建的工程等等這些都暫緩不發包這是黃偉哲市長直接對外說明因為我們被三減了五十億"},{"start":25550.117,"end":25572.031,"text":"我想對於每一個縣市都一樣還有我們活動的補助先控管40%甚至其他有可能受到重大影響的因為我們要配合款所以有可能是鐵路地下化還有台南捷運南線等等這些對於台南非常重大"},{"start":25574.392,"end":25598.093,"text":"所以為什麼現在大家本末倒置為什麼不先說因才有這個國所以我們現在行政院也做了補救我們再追加預算要把這636億補回來對不對那就看在野黨的態度你們是在打真球還是打假球"},{"start":25599.246,"end":25623.656,"text":"你們口口聲聲說為了各縣市的地方建設這個一般補助款不能刪把行政院罵到臭頭那行政院現在已經要把追加追回來那就看你在野黨的態度啊我覺得如果今天大家認為這很重要我認為很重要我全力支持"},{"start":25624.239,"end":25643.772,"text":"謝謝委員 我也希望大院能夠通力來支持這樣的最佳預算我們就能夠全速如期的讓地方不會發生這樣的困窘而且速度越快 根本不用省啊請我們韓院長 朝野協商因為我們上個禮拜送進來了嘛請朝野協商趕快開會討論協商處理"},{"start":25649.332,"end":25677.298,"text":"有什麼問題很快就可以處理啊韓院長召集的這幾次協商效率跟內容都相當的好我們認為這是一個良好的互動模式對嘛所以我們這一次的追加預算也可以比照辦理啊根本不用再進入到審查因為這個真的是及時雨在今年現在已經八月了是不是如果再拖下去可能我們救不了及時雨"},{"start":25678.379,"end":25693.056,"text":"所以院長我要拜託兩位院長卓院長還有韓院長我們拜託韓院長是不是盡快召開草野協商大家如果認為一般補助款很重要"},{"start":25694.454,"end":25712.855,"text":"那拜託大家摒棄所有的成見為了我們這個國家好為了地方的建設好就把636億趕快通過我相信這才是我們台灣人民之福所以拜託韓院長拜託"},{"start":25713.891,"end":25729.924,"text":"也拜託卓院長我們會盡快完成行政院內部的程序然後送交大院來審議我也知道韓院長已經有預定了相當好的時間要進行各項的協商預計下禮拜我們會有進一步的進展所以真的要拜託兩位院長這個對我們"},{"start":25731.485,"end":25750.161,"text":"台南太重要了因為對行政院來講各部會發生的困難跟剛剛委員所說的台南市我們有更多行政院院本部更多我們十二三億的預算甚至還有五億是被凍結住的我覺得今天沒有錢就沒辦法做事了台南市災區"},{"start":25751.874,"end":25780.871,"text":"我們看到每個人的一個災況真的內心充滿一些無奈所以我們風災特別條例我們就用協商的方式讓他很快通過所以我們就有這一個所謂的風災特別條例可以有600億的特別預算來協助我們這些災區所以這就是很好的一個典範所以我們希望這個一般補助款也可以比照辦理"},{"start":25781.491,"end":25801.332,"text":"那我也要另外再問院長其實在這一次風災的特別條例有一個很重要的裡面有我們的一些環境設施的一個處理所以院長你知道這一次台南石棉瓦的影響非常的大是"},{"start":25802.062,"end":25828.058,"text":"但是現在必須跟院長報告石棉瓦的部分我們的災區住戶家戶有處理然後畜牧場有處理可是現在我們的工廠是沒處理的可是工廠這一次我們補助非常少而且在我們石棉瓦的處理"},{"start":25828.991,"end":25847.19,"text":"也沒有任何的幫助與協助這個院長我真的要替我們所有台南的鄉親請命一下石棉瓦是有毒而且不好處理如果沒有我們政府全權來處理可能會造成二次傷害"},{"start":25848.409,"end":25872.712,"text":"報告委員這是我們幾個預算當中有關於石棉瓦的處理總合加起來應該有13億據環境部所稱這13億他應該可以就目前看到的問題不可能全部 太多了目前看到問題來解決就在災區其實我們就設限在災區其實重點是我們要怎麼協助他們因為石棉瓦非常的特別"},{"start":25873.453,"end":25892.09,"text":"他是有毒而且過去我們要求他們要處理大家沒辦法處理而且處理的積極度不高剛好在這一次風災不得不處理的狀態之下我們鼓勵大家那我們要鼓勵大家就是政府要帶頭來協助大家"},{"start":25892.771,"end":25918.514,"text":"所以這個部分再拜託從我們的家戶再到我們的畜牧再到我們的工廠中小企業災區的部分真正毀損的因為他必須要報災情所以真的有災情依照這個災情去做相對處理這個要拜託院長有環境部已經有核定相關的預算會來逐步來就目前看到的問題來解決"},{"start":25919.008,"end":25936.65,"text":"然後另外一個部分就是我們這一次台南市我們的環保局為了處理這一次的風災整個處理廢棄物我們的機具都是用勞過多了你懂我的意思嗎已經炒到壞了"},{"start":25938.052,"end":25965.973,"text":"所以我覺得是不是可以在這個部分我們環境部可以協助來補助我們這些設備就是我們這些機具沒有機具你沒辦法處理 有人也沒辦法所以這個部分也請我們院長來從旁協助跟我們環境部提醒一下我們真的是已經都炒得比較香了大家相信人間沒有機具是沒辦法的所以這個部分再拜託"},{"start":25966.693,"end":25990.658,"text":"我請相關部會來維持各縣市應該有的基本能力再拜託那院長還有另外一個就是一萬塊的部分其實我們現在已經送了修正草案過來對不對那修正草案這裡面其實有三點比較不同的跟我們的三讀我們必須修正的就是強化電力系統這個一定要"},{"start":25991.918,"end":26016.111,"text":"這台電在毀損太多了已經超越原來的電纜韌性的各個工作範圍跟預算我們真的要拜託所有在野黨的朋友你如果沒有去看到災區請你去災區看一下你可以看到整個電條多了了這個如果沒有從韌性再加強沒有給台電一個力量"},{"start":26017.162,"end":26044.553,"text":"他沒有辦法加強我們的韌性所以這個是我們在修法我們的特別條例韌性特別條例裡面的修法之一第二個就是把我們的修法因為一萬塊的部分然後把他的金額上限提高到5900億元我們三讀是5400億元我們現在是5900億元所以為什麼會多這些數額"},{"start":26047.608,"end":26067.454,"text":"院長為什麼會多這些數就是電力的部分增加200億那我們預備第二期如果有需要的時候我們再提出第二期的特別預算200億另外就是普發現金還是不夠我們增加了10億所以這是有所本嘛在這個低收中低收入的弱勢族群我們增加了40億"},{"start":26068.514,"end":26088.874,"text":"所以這是有所本嗎因為我們就是在低收入戶跟中低收入戶的部分我們多一萬元對不對我們計算的方式不是一萬是逐月或是怎麼樣是逐月好那就是在中低收入或低收入我們多了40億所以我們多了這些錢是有所本的"},{"start":26089.574,"end":26116.454,"text":"對不對不是突然之間蹦上去是有所本的而且我還看到你一條我們原本的三讀條例是說10月31號可是這裡面你們所修正的是說如果這個特別條例特別預算公佈之後的一個月內你們就要開始執行發放作業對不對如果我們趕快一樣拜託韓院長"},{"start":26117.635,"end":26135.4,"text":"這個都要拜託你趕快召集朝野協商趕快讓他通過不要再有政治考量就是趕快通過那麼我覺得會比10月31號還快10月31號執行完畢那個有困難人民什麼時候來領取或是什麼程序"},{"start":26135.92,"end":26164.519,"text":"只要我們一開始就給人民有充分而且一定保障權利的時間沒錯 就是發放的那個點一定會在10月31日以前嘛如果韓院長趕快召集朝野協商趕快定案趕快我們一個月內就會開始執行發放對不對那麼就是七個月因為本來就有我要領跟不要領那是人民的意願嘛你不能逼他說你沒來領"},{"start":26165.88,"end":26185.187,"text":"我要怎麼樣不行嘛所以我們定了七個月內要發放完畢嘛這是一個人性嘛對不對但是我們非常負責任的是如果特別條例通過了我就是一個月內開始執行發放對不對這是現在我們可以有把握的時間點"},{"start":26186.007,"end":26211.263,"text":"所以時間這個特別條例我相信我們可以讓人民越快能夠領到這一萬元然後低收入戶跟中低收入戶會有額外的一個處理方式對不對這個時間點也是財政部來跟我說明他們說照過去的經驗他們已經事先可以提早做一些準備工作了所以"},{"start":26213.079,"end":26237.931,"text":"這個部分也是要拜託韓院長趕快召集朝野協商這個沒有爭議呀這哪有爭議是電力有爭議嗎拜託來我們再去看一下倒了2000多支的電感你看了你一定不可能等預算再來就是我們的預算的部分都是有所本"},{"start":26239.076,"end":26257.273,"text":"對不對 增加的這個幅度都是有鎖本的經濟弱勢者以及我們預留的第二期第二期如果沒有用到那就為大家省了200億如果真的有需要我們就馬上提出按預算程序來辦理所以這都有鎖本所以我覺得無論是剛剛的"},{"start":26259.226,"end":26286.072,"text":"追加預算還是我們的特別條例任性特別條例的修正我覺得這兩個案子都沒有爭議趕快韓院長召集朝野協商用最快速的速度通過之後讓人民有感這才是最重要的而不要再政治口水政治鬥爭我覺得這個對人民一點幫助都沒有"},{"start":26287,"end":26312.876,"text":"院長你認為呢我們共同謝謝韓院長韓院長 拜託拜託你我們的希望在你身上請你召集朝野協商 一般補助還有我們的任性特別條例請你趕快協商 趕快通過我們就可以讓所有台灣人民感受到我們政府的力量好不好我覺得我越來越重要了 謝謝"},{"start":26313.652,"end":26321.379,"text":"沒有 院長本來就很重要了啊好不好 趕快朝野協商我們真的要拜託韓院長謝謝 謝謝卓院長 謝謝謝謝陳委員 謝謝韓院長謝謝卓院長備詢 謝謝我們接下來休息十分鐘之後請盧縣醫委員準備諮詢 現在休息"},{"start":27036.755,"end":27054.128,"text":"好 不然以後我們繼續開會接下來請盧縣一委員質詢徐新一委員請準備院長有請左院長麻煩請左院長備詢"},{"start":27068.845,"end":27086.883,"text":"這幾天又有颱風上個禮拜我有參加當時颱風特別條例的協調會私立校有詢問主委說主委我們大概可以分到多少錢他大概有跟我說很像是四十幾億的樣子"},{"start":27088.764,"end":27114.2,"text":"我想就今天的問題來說基本是維持費它當初是沒有刪減可是在今年的2月7號的時候原民會有發一個文就是說凍結50%所以讓各地方的我們原住民區的鄉公所 區公所都感覺非常的辛苦這方面可以解釋一下嗎來 請主委各位報告"},{"start":27115.1,"end":27138.472,"text":"我們是沒有動 就是沒有刪減就是凍結50%那麼我們在2月27號也已經播了第一期了那麼在6月24號我們也是核定了第二期那目前跟委員報告就是說第一期的部分55個鄉那麼剩下10個鄉還沒有提報那第二期的部分也只有8個鄉來提報"},{"start":27140.593,"end":27153.828,"text":"雖然是這樣我知道因為碰到很多的這個災害那公所也真的是很忙但是我們主動的就是說來協助他們趕快來提報6.4億大概什麼時候可以到位6.4億"},{"start":27155.718,"end":27183.08,"text":"都合訂了他們要一程序他們要先報縣市政府然後報到我們這邊來然後我們再把錢撥下去我先謝謝就是我剛看到就是我們已經有我們原住民進法補償有新增了23.6億還有我們提升國軍待遇這個部分首先我們肯定行政院的作為我們這邊我們會努力的來配合"},{"start":27185.528,"end":27205.643,"text":"在這之前我先說一下最近我去看的一些地方的一些看見讓主委知道我昨天去了騰芝騰芝它一個大概0到19K的一個範圍的損害其實我就問說這個是誰在圍管他說是林保署"},{"start":27206.343,"end":27230.682,"text":"那我就說你一年大概花多少錢大概8億左右他說8億還是不夠那我就想到我們訪聊的那個春日的大漢領導這領導16K我們不知道開了多少次的協調會那互相踢來踢去像縣政府說不是他的林保史說不是他的國防部說不是他的可是這些機關都是使用人"},{"start":27231.903,"end":27246.239,"text":"所以我非常當然現在騰出那邊是非常的辛苦可是按照這個林保署他在那邊每年花的八億我對春日那邊的完全沒有單位要去接管這個事情讓他覺得替他們報不平所以希望"},{"start":27247.02,"end":27275.438,"text":"主委還有院長能夠去了解這個事情當然林道上面有個國軍的單位然後它所下也有林班地不過它的大概有十幾K的路段是屬於原保地這條道路0到16K沒有經費可以挹注去來修理或者是說維管這個道路可是我昨天去了騰芝0到19K是由林保署全額支付一年的費用大概是8億以上"},{"start":27277.048,"end":27291.932,"text":"我們在這之前我們再看一下我最近在看一些原住民族的年度預算我們再做一下比較等一下我們再提道路的問題那大家看範圍文獻看到澳洲對原住民的年度預算兩年是1034億台幣"},{"start":27294.493,"end":27323.386,"text":"那他們按照人口比例的話他們的人口比例大概是3.8我們原住民是台灣原住民是2.6那他們的整個國家對原住民的那個預算的分配是0.77換算我們現在原民會的那個經費是123.81的話在我們三兆裡面的0.11就是千分之四所以我是覺得政府還是做得不夠雖然我知道大家都很努力也都很辛苦在找經費可是這個部分我們就是做得不夠而且還不包括"},{"start":27324.738,"end":27352.571,"text":"澳洲對為了彌平他們所謂的歷史上的傷痕我們就像我們之前的轉型正義的時候我們只有類似像蔡英文總統那個轉型正義委員會可是沒有實際的一個所謂的經濟的一個彌平他曾經花了23.3億billion也就是4600億台幣來彌平這個所謂的歷史傷痕所以這是我要跟院長跟主委在報告就是說他們目前他們"},{"start":27353.331,"end":27374.544,"text":"要努力的方向就是說要縮短跟主流社會的差距在2021跟2022這兩年也花了1132億台幣其實他們大部分的重點都是放在他們的居家生活的安全教育跟醫療還有一些經濟發展我來看一下我們目前的各業務項目來做比較"},{"start":27375.965,"end":27399.428,"text":"我們園民會的業務項目非常多然後單位他們細項也非常繁雜大概看了做了一些比較澳洲原住民的話大概就做這六項居住環境安全社區健康經濟參與小朋友的還有其他的那我看一下大概我們他是我們的五倍左右四倍左右那我們平均可以分到的時候"},{"start":27401.881,"end":27420.387,"text":"兩萬多塊那可是在澳洲原住民的話一個人是可以分到如果預算來平均的話是87萬塊所以這個是顯然是非常大的差距然後就當地的原住民跟非原住民的比較原住民的收到的政府的支出是一般人的兩倍"},{"start":27421.067,"end":27436.941,"text":"所以如果說就我們的一個經濟水準如果用一般人的兩倍來照顧原住民的話應該才是這個真正澳洲在呈現這個所有的照顧的一個所謂的一個邏輯跟它所呈現的一個正義所以我又看了一下原民會的那個"},{"start":27437.702,"end":27462.919,"text":"今年預算成長的狀況從105年是76億那現在呢到現在是123.8億我們也肯定政府也謝謝政府努力就是說至少有逐年增加大概現在是大概增加到47.18甚至到將近快一倍的一個程度從105年來開始算的話可是呢我們雖然看起來是這樣很好可是看加拿大"},{"start":27463.649,"end":27489.836,"text":"加拿大在2015年的時候是11個billion現在是32個billion是三倍所以我的意思是說對我們台灣很覺得很像我們是一個很像以小小多少的國家自居然後感覺是原住民是我們文化的瑰寶又是我們對世界文化有很大的貢獻可是人家的付出就是這麼多我們要檢討就是說我們的預算是不是應該要多一點給我們原住民各位報告"},{"start":27490.768,"end":27519.951,"text":"看政府怎麼照顧原住民不是只有看延民會的預算因為不管是教育的農業的這個還有其他其他的社會福利的勞工的都分散在各個部會不是只有我們延民會這120幾億所以我想這點一定要跟委員做說明沒有錯那其實這個加拿大這個分數這張是很重要的雖然說他這個花費增加了三倍可是他的所謂的"},{"start":27520.888,"end":27545.102,"text":"Community Wellbeing Index他的成績其實是沒有增加很多所以就要知道說他的預算有沒有用對地方其實他從10年前是58.4分現在花了這麼多錢還才62.4分所以他們主要這個評定的項目是教育程度、就業狀況、收入跟家庭狀況可是他們很像把有一些費用完全是用在小朋友"},{"start":27547.323,"end":27566.735,"text":"印度安人可能生了比較多的孩子可能費用是比較多花在那邊也就是說其實我們應該要去檢討這幾年以後我們是不是應該把我們的經費的運用的項目不是永遠都是這樣而是應該有些項目要做調整不要像看到他們加拿大雖然花了這麼多錢可是幸福感還是沒有那麼大"},{"start":27567.901,"end":27578.372,"text":"所以我是希望主委跟院長能夠把這件事情放在心裡面最近我到原鄉做會刊去了阿里山 到了納瑪西亞 到了茂林"},{"start":27579.195,"end":27608.455,"text":"可是我要跟主委抱怨的地方就是說你們幾乎都不派員與會那我是說水保署的人也會來然後我們林保署的人也會到然後縣市政府的承辦人也會到可是園民會就是一個人都沒有來那你們要怎麼知道地方的需求呢我跟委員報告你講的這個南馬廈還有桃園還有茂林這個我們都有去而且我親自去我非常清楚像"},{"start":27609.168,"end":27629.148,"text":"南麻西亞的部分在主要道路這個聯絡道當然這個是由農委會還有我們水利署來做我們要做的地方是在做部落的一些道路還有它的邊坡的一些部分還有一個很重要的就是他們目前"},{"start":27630.668,"end":27646.236,"text":"產業推不出去因為他們芒果也沒有辦法出來那現在就是說我們來解決就是說他們現在正在採竹筍那麼需要一點錢就是希望只要有路能夠上去把他們的產品弄下來這個我們也在協助"},{"start":27646.696,"end":27673.625,"text":"甚至於我們希望就是買他們的特別的產品像茂林的油芒我們希望買他們的產品直接給我們災區的文化健康站來使用也讓我們部落的這些族人能夠活得下去我們也希望來幫他們更多的忙這個在其他部會就沒有辦法做我們這個部分我們來做因為難得我還是要跟院長報告就是說"},{"start":27675.083,"end":27703.789,"text":"本來期盼說當然是條例可能有一些遷村的經費可是在這邊可能這個我看了這次的那個費用的規劃裡面並沒有這個遷村的費用所以我希望這個居住環境居住安全這邊可以把它正式編為我們園民會的每年的預算因為現在遷村的需求大概或者說居家安全的這個需求大概有幾個部落我跟主委說有馬市大社這幾戶還有我們滿洲的分水嶺上下分水嶺"},{"start":27704.729,"end":27733.287,"text":"紅葉的第二林還有藤枝他希望原本的消失的藤枝能夠富裕在現在我們桃園區的這個叫三十八甲的一個地名也就是他們現在櫻花公園的旁邊所以有這麼多地區我已經盤點完我是希望原民會能夠去認真的看待從莫拉克到現在這些居住需求的這些族人不然他們連最基本的房子都沒有我們還要去怎麼講其他的呢"},{"start":27735.314,"end":27757.816,"text":"跟委員報告像滿卓的這個簽署計畫這個因為這個特別條例重新特別條例他有一個時間性我們是要趕快做一些部落的有一些這個聯絡道路的橋樑也好邊坡的崩塌也好甚至於更多的這個部落裡面的一些巷道的一些排水我們要先做這個馬上做馬上挖坡讓部落趕快來復原這個趕快來重建"},{"start":27760.058,"end":27784.33,"text":"那自己簽住計畫他不是一下子就能做的他還要找到土地我們還要下去協調這個部分就是說還要提辦這個新辦事業計畫等等需要其他的部會一起來協調當然在困難我們也會來協調也謝謝委員的協助啦我是希望說能夠逐年編列預算讓他的預算到達一個程度的時候就可以解決他們的問題不然一直都擺在那裡"},{"start":27785.17,"end":27811.777,"text":"還有這次他們也有提到說他們看到當時颱風有對各個屋島的房屋有些補助可是原住民的地區很多都是鐵皮屋被吹掉然後你也知道很多原住民的房子是沒有實用執照的也就是說他們並沒有可以有申請到這個補助的一個所謂的條件裡面所以這個部分能不能放寬讓我們族人他明明就是有確實有房屋倒塌可是卻沒有經費可以補償他的損失"},{"start":27813.206,"end":27837.253,"text":"跟委員報告我們是有就是說房子倒塌或者是房子就是說被流失掉的我們有這樣的一個補助但是相關的標準我們現在在彙整到時候我想我也會來跟委員做報告我想我們都很清楚部落的狀況回到騰芝的我剛才說的18K的地方我去看了以後真的是慘不忍睹柔和橋大概在兩年前"},{"start":27838.493,"end":27861.892,"text":"落成的花了幾千萬結果現在是完全沒有了等於是四千萬又不見了所以他們昨天在跟我說的時候就希望說當地的施工單位可以去詢問一下當地住在那裡的族人他的工法所以他們不是建築師他們並不是什麼專業的什麼可是他們對知道那邊的地形地貌哪裡土質鬆軟哪裡應該是往哪裡走"},{"start":27863.553,"end":27877.188,"text":"如果說他們有一些部落會議或者怎麼樣他們應該要參與然後參與工程的時候比如說路線往山上然後再下去他們說一而再再而三從現在這個地方結果就造成水又一樣橋又不見了的狀況發生"},{"start":27879.691,"end":27899.985,"text":"是啊委員就像我們那個霧台谷川那個橋就做得很好如果橋是這樣做的話我想一次就解決了很多年的問題很多你剛剛講的很多一些橋的從一開始就不是那麼堅固所以就是說我們想再利用這一次重建條例這樣的一個機會我們好好來檢視"},{"start":27902.026,"end":27920.075,"text":"那就是最後一個問題就是最近有人分享一個LINE給我看就是說他發現有一個行政不中立的問題那我就仔細看了一下這個所謂的邀請函結果邀請函我仔細看了一下他名稱是誰就是大家都應該要去關心的問題比如說"},{"start":27921.215,"end":27948.851,"text":"我們原住民立委 原住民的議員無論是藍綠或執政在野都應該要關心的問題他名稱是這樣原住民保留地歸屬濟南回思鄉鎮永續發展公聽會我們看到了您的名字也看到立法委員的名字兩個他們都是我們執政黨的委員然後台東縣議會議員金鋒香鄉長你看就獨立我跟高經委或者是說我們其他全部的原住民的委員"},{"start":27949.551,"end":27970.387,"text":"那我會覺得說這看也沒有看到主辦單位是誰啊就是說也不知道是相關所辦的還是原民會辦的是縣政府辦的我不會這樣子你也知道那我們也經常不管在活動的場合我們在地方上也經常碰面不可能說只邀請什麼什麼的不是啦不會這樣子請委員放心啦"},{"start":27978.751,"end":27995.444,"text":"謝謝盧縣議委員的質詢謝謝卓院長 原住民委員會的備詢 謝謝好 我們接下來請徐信義委員質詢徐宇珍委員請準備"},{"start":28007.183,"end":28024.717,"text":"謝謝院長 主席 我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢許主任好卓院長好 辛苦了今天我們的專案報告"},{"start":28028.53,"end":28051.343,"text":"那是針對我們這次應該說114年的預算有關這636億當初通刪沒有指定具體刪減的內容本席在這裡要還原也要釐清一些程序還有一些依法的事實首先第一個我們當初"},{"start":28053.673,"end":28069.209,"text":"這個沒有具體刪減的內容本席要就過去立法院你也擔任過立法委員我們立法院審查預算的時候按照慣例我們在最後二讀三讀協商的時候"},{"start":28070.798,"end":28093.868,"text":"立法院都會請行政院的各部會來協調通商的預算當時我們立法院的行政同仁邀請行政單位但行政單位都不出席這個是杯葛杯葛我們這個協商的程序並非如此"},{"start":28095.661,"end":28108.73,"text":"這個本席要請教您您當時知道行政院已經不跟立法院溝通這636億元的金額和數字分配嗎您當時知道嗎我們是在表決之後才知道的這個"},{"start":28109.812,"end":28128.797,"text":"三檢我們的通山這個提案早就出來了而且我們在程序過程中行政院都不派員說明請問誰決定不要派員的以前行政院各單位都會很積極的來跟立法院這邊溝通為什麼獨獨今年沒有"},{"start":28130.777,"end":28154.458,"text":"至少在院本部跟秘書長這個層級上面我們沒有被接到通知要來進行任何關於這個通商部分的任何協商事件有 立法院有通知而且立法院的這個官員也有通知各部會所以這個是第一個我們行政院不能夠蓄意杯葛"},{"start":28155.492,"end":28178.252,"text":"那再來就是過去依照案例都會提出竟然是通刪都會提出刪減清單為什麼這個行政院這一次也可以不回應都沒有提出而且消極不作為整個杯葛立法院的審查這個是我們整個憲政運作最壞的案例因為馬上下個會期下個月九月"},{"start":28179.793,"end":28193.499,"text":"115年的總預算又要開始審查了所以本席針對這一塊這個是一開始的原因我看今天的質詢裡面我們政天才委員也有稍微提到所以這一塊本席要特別的提出來強調"},{"start":28194.915,"end":28218.474,"text":"我們行政院惡意的杯葛這個也等於爛拳我也跟委員報告行政院沒有惡意杯葛我們也沒有接到任何被要求來協調的時間再來往年都有通山之力但是今年這個通山數額之大過往從來沒有數額大小這個是另一個議題我記得90年 民國90年度有一次有一個"},{"start":28219.896,"end":28237.936,"text":"300多億的一個通商後來這個差減數大概是幾十億有經過一個調整雙方同意了來調整但是今天636億從來沒有做下來說這636億數量這麼大行政院如何接受以及內容如何來評定這個部分就是立法院邀請行政院"},{"start":28238.837,"end":28257.043,"text":"集體杯葛不來啊沒有杯葛沒有杯葛所以現在這個這個就羅生門或許是有時間差的誤會但沒有杯葛我們願意來我們希望115年的總預算審查的時候不要有這種情況那我更期待可以嗎這一次我們的補救方法這個最佳預算這等一下我們來談好接著"},{"start":28257.881,"end":28285.329,"text":"我們看到沒有提到這個刪減的清單立法院尊重行政院讓你636億給你一個彈性調整的空間空間跟彈性讓你可以兼顧經費的節約以及行政效能結果我們接著看我們尊重行政院給行政院空間結果行政院怎麼樣呢"},{"start":28287.17,"end":28298.95,"text":"違法挪移院長 您本身是學法律的本席要一一的我們應該要讓全國的民眾知道首先第一個"},{"start":28301.86,"end":28330.76,"text":"行政院把這636億整個轉嫁到一般姓地方政府的一般姓補助款但是我們在整個114年度總預算案通案刪減的這個內容裡面案由的第一行就講它是針對中央各機關及所屬通案刪減然後接著底下有十幾項所以很明顯明顯的寫出來"},{"start":28332.603,"end":28355.495,"text":"這邊有嘛 對中央各機關中央各機關及所屬他通案刪減所以我不相信我們整個行政院會不知道啊他怎麼可以變成是地方性的這個一般性的地方政府的一般性補助款這第一個再第二個第二個是我們114年通過的總預算"},{"start":28359.394,"end":28376.179,"text":"整個三讀通過的總預算有很多內容其中第26款來下一頁第26款第一項針對直轄市以及縣市一般性補助款是2501億1279萬 照列院長"},{"start":28385.041,"end":28409.139,"text":"這麼明確怎麼這636億會變成這個一般性的轉嫁到地方委員上一張圖下面有一行字是叫做從其他項目自行刪減自行調整幫你回頭看一下對 其他項目但是也是在中央各機關級所屬其他項目是指中央各機關級所屬"},{"start":28411.127,"end":28416.622,"text":"但是以其他項目刪減替代科目自行調整非常清楚"},{"start":28421.636,"end":28445.434,"text":"對 是在它是架構在中央各機關即所屬不是直轄市及一般縣市政府他把各機關都列出來在文字上都有了沒有列 就是其他項目其他項目 刪減替代這個真的 院長您念法的不要跟我玩文字遊戲接著 接著沒有 接著我們下一頁沒有嗎我們那個114年通過的總預算對啊"},{"start":28450.077,"end":28479.817,"text":"我們通過三讀的照列這個照列是地方直轄市及縣市一般性補助款完全照列啊當初我們在8月30號的文當中有提到如果經過審查之後有變動我們就會依這個審查的結果去調整您在報告中特別提到這一點所以本席接著就請教您你說你可以依法來調整請問你依哪一條法律"},{"start":28480.357,"end":28503.89,"text":"你依哪一條法律你可以動用到這個地方政府的一般性補助法好太好了來秀出來中央對直轄市及縣市政府的補助辦法院長這邊明確列出來第4條第5條第6條第12條第13條請問地方政府犯了哪一條"},{"start":28505.22,"end":28529.241,"text":"沒有犯哪一條行政院也沒有犯哪一條啊也是被刪了1439億所以就說這些地方政府的一般性補助款他如果有法律補助辦法有規定他如果有執行效能低落他開源節流的績效很差還是他依法該徵收而沒有徵收的都沒有犯啊"},{"start":28529.861,"end":28549.483,"text":"然後你一視同仁的這個刪減這不是行政院的要行政院自行刪除是犯了剛剛委員說的哪一條是低落呢還是行政院自行刪除是犯了哪一條這個刪除他不是犯哪一條他就是立法院針對通案刪減我還沒講完要行政院準結經費"},{"start":28551.656,"end":28574.214,"text":"要行政院準決經費所以你不用反問我我是在請教您您依法是依哪一個法我們現在對於地方你們把這636億轉嫁過去是完全違法違憲的這不是轉嫁過去就是我剛剛早上說的源頭的水沒有了那支流的水當然就會減少這必然的"},{"start":28575.435,"end":28592.671,"text":"不是 你源頭你不能全部混在一起這個刪讀通過的它有哪些能夠刪哪些不能刪的然後照列的那這樣變成行政院完全不用依法行政喔可以違法亂紀啊"},{"start":28594.104,"end":28601.49,"text":"沒有財政紀律院長 這個很可怕耶人家說風行草眼 上行下效所以白紙黑字成活民眾完全沒有被遵守"},{"start":28610.302,"end":28631.879,"text":"照憲法 照預算法不能隨意增加稅出要跟行政院徵詢這個也沒有履行我們現在在討論這636億不能夠轉嫁到直轄市及地方政府的一般性補助款我在跟您談這個行政院這個作為你是帶頭違法"},{"start":28634.035,"end":28653.202,"text":"立法院在三行政院1439議席之後也應該想到要我們通山636的時候也應該想到所以院長您講不出來沒有依法沒有依法我依這個辦法有依法所以院長只要您願意您承認這是一個錯誤的決策我覺得您的幕僚真的給您錯誤的決策沒有錯誤"},{"start":28655.676,"end":28668.429,"text":"我必須講 本席必須說我們都是中華民國的國民我們就像一家人OK 今天不能夠假設真的中央政府"},{"start":28669.642,"end":28692.174,"text":"行政院各部會 你錢真的怎麼樣 挪不出來可以跟立法院協調啊你不能用綁架 你綁架什麼你綁架所有區立委 心中的那塊軟肋最軟的那塊肉 你就像家人今天家人 你真的預算 經費怎麼樣我們可以溝通協調 溝通協調之後"},{"start":28695.015,"end":28714.505,"text":"好 你要追加 我們經過溝通協調可以可是你們用了最錯誤的方法你綁架地方 綁架人民把預算刪減之後 把財化調整之後讓掌握掌櫃的人要去借錢來做這些事情你們的這個行為行為違法"},{"start":28717.907,"end":28733.658,"text":"你違反財政紀律而且你跟全國民眾你這樣講根本就是欺騙民眾我們如果違反財政紀律我們不可能有那麼多的稅計剩餘我們累積了那麼多的稅計剩餘現在卻必須去舉債來編特別預算這難道是一家人嗎"},{"start":28735.018,"end":28751.604,"text":"家人會這麼做嗎當然這有很多我們其他可以談的但是我現在在談你們選擇這個行為這個是最卑劣的行為我們是被動的最卑劣所以院長你就承認了"},{"start":28752.344,"end":28775.815,"text":"你今天你是在做政治的操作你操作你讓地方民眾而且你這些錢你故意犧牲孩子的營養物產長輩的照護 偏鄉的救護還有教育的資源育兒津貼甚至地方的救災經費所以我們115年預算馬上要審"},{"start":28780.236,"end":28807.161,"text":"我們真的希望行政院不要這樣不要違法亂紀我們立法院一切依法你們也要依法行政那當然有自愛難行的本席也認同我們可以溝通甚至你們提出來追加預算這都是正確的政治的操作所以我們今天共同來解決問題希望追加預算下禮拜能夠被大院所支持"},{"start":28808.141,"end":28829.222,"text":"您立刻撥補這個636億給地方追加預算是另外一回事你不能夠挾持地方啊這樣是錯誤的行為行政院不是印鈔機不是魔術師啊沒有錢就是沒有錢這一些錢是照列你怎麼會沒有錢這一些錢是照列已經被刪減掉啦"},{"start":28830.917,"end":28859.966,"text":"錢是在啊沒有啊 那好 本席現在請教你不是 本席請教你我們這個那這樣 你說錢都用光我們針對中央各機關所屬通案刪減請問通案刪減適用的中央各機關所屬他整個的經費 總經費是多少你們有統計嗎本席跟行政院相關單位要 到我到我要質詢都不給"},{"start":28861.705,"end":28877.156,"text":"如果你們有這麼精準的去計算所以院長你應該很清楚稅出的數字嗎不是稅出 而是我們針對通案刪減的對象中央所屬機關這些可以通案刪減的他的總經費是多少 303億啊"},{"start":28878.817,"end":28892.667,"text":"不是你那個303億是我們已經列出來要刪的我指的是他的總預算總預算有多少可以很清楚的算出來的"},{"start":28893.441,"end":28911.652,"text":"那你們應該算出來啦怎麼到現在本席要都不給其中有的出國旅費被刪了60%有的特別費全刪有的教育費全刪刪多少那你們要看你今年比去年你又這個你服編了多少你增加了多少你沒講所以院長"},{"start":28912.552,"end":28925.976,"text":"今年要再審預算我們只希望行政院要依法行政報告委員 今年的3兆1325億的稅數扣掉2806億的行政預算跟去年差不多再扣掉好 謝謝徐新委的質詢也謝謝卓院長備詢謝謝"},{"start":28948.291,"end":28966.466,"text":"好 接下來我們請許宇珍委員質詢然後羅志強委員請準備謝謝院長我們請卓榮泰院長備詢麻煩再請卓院長備詢許委員好"},{"start":28975.263,"end":28980.288,"text":"主委好您辛苦了我想請教一下卓院長行政院在113年8月30號有發函給立法院就是針對"},{"start":28987.268,"end":29007.561,"text":"貴院審查的111年度中央政府總預算案所做的決議並附上114年度的法律義務支出的明細表其中清楚地列出一般性補助款屬於法律義務支出依法必須編列不得刪減那這是行政院送給我們立法院的公文"},{"start":29008.041,"end":29028.151,"text":"目的就是要讓立法院在審查預算的時候必須要確認哪些支出是必須編列哪些是不得刪減的強制性項目所以請院長看一下第一項就是一般性補助款而在經過立法院的審議三讀通過的我們114年度的總預算總統也在3月21號正式公佈"},{"start":29029.211,"end":29043.562,"text":"結果行政院卻以統三為由自行砍掉636億元相當於27.3的比例這不僅自打嘴巴也更嚴重的違反預算法定原則那我想院長您在"},{"start":29045.003,"end":29058.393,"text":"賴清德總統在2月10號的時候有在總統府邀集五院進行國政的會商那當時韓國瑜院長就有當場提出希望行政院不要對114年度的總預算提出複議"},{"start":29059.434,"end":29088.874,"text":"而是提出追加減預算的方式來解決紛擾但是行政院還是一樣在2月27號提出復議接著在5月16號韓文地方政府砍掉一般性的補助款636億元8月14號才提出最佳預算所以這一來一往耽擱了半年如果當時早聽韓院長的一個建議的話也不會讓這半年來讓地方政府苦不堪言我想"},{"start":29089.614,"end":29101.782,"text":"院長這次在行政院發給立法院的公文有明確的提出一般性的補助款是處於法定義務的支出請問院長為什麼還要違法刪除呢"},{"start":29103.01,"end":29128.877,"text":"第一個行政院沒有違法刪除在總統召開這個院紀的協調之後我們跟韓院長也有其他若干的接觸我們所提出的方式雙方也都曾經有認同但是後來沒有辦法繼續的執行下去院長您剛剛說沒有違法可是你們明明就違反了立法院的決議這就是違法怎麼會沒有違法刪除因為立法院要求行政院自行刪除"},{"start":29129.957,"end":29152.192,"text":"我們是給你彈性去刪除因為很多的預算居然講我們刪了你覺得是不可以刪的所以這是一個彈性的做法那如果做不到的話其實我想其實主計總署也可以來做出一些調整跟方式那當然我想這個部分院長我現在請您看一下在民進黨不是說兩句話不是不可以刪是刪的過程當中"},{"start":29152.772,"end":29181.212,"text":"针对特定机关巨额庞大而且要我们自行删除这确实有困难确实有很多地方其实可以删的需要花一点时间但是事实上也经过半年哪里可以删哪里不可以删其实我想主席总署最清楚那您可以看一下民进党对于法律义务支出的看法在114年1月21号的民进党的脸书有写2501亿的一般性补助款都是行政和立法部门不得变动的中央"},{"start":29181.972,"end":29210.026,"text":"法定支出那院長您以前擔任過民進黨的主席那民進黨的臉書您認為他是亂寫的嗎我想民進黨的臉書這樣的寫法你也不認為他是錯的嗎所以到底是現在的民進黨在打臉您卓榮泰院長還是您卓榮泰院長在打臉民進黨的主席賴清德呢以法律義務支出這個的解釋是當行政院基於要編酬這個預算的過程當中"},{"start":29210.646,"end":29231.467,"text":"我想连民进党都特别提到了这2500亿是一般性补助款必须是法律意识不得删减那所谓不得删减就是一块都不能删啊还有不得删减是某比例的删减那是不正确的我们是着于补助我们对补助的定额跟百分比都可以处理"},{"start":29232.588,"end":29248.639,"text":"法定義務就是既然叫做不得刪卷不得就是指一塊錢都不能刪不是說我刪掉27.3%而已我沒有刪掉全部我覺得那是錯誤的曲解那當然我們針對現在正在編列115年度的中央政府的總預算那依法也是規定"},{"start":29250.301,"end":29262.241,"text":"中央政府給予地方政府的一般性補助款不得少於修正施行前的前一年的預算編列數請問行政院有沒有依法編註115年度給地方政府的一般性補助款"},{"start":29263.191,"end":29288.068,"text":"基本上我是認為立法院做這樣的決議啊是侵犯了行政院編列預算的權利哪有說一個比例定住之後每逐年都不能調整我現在請教您的是115年度的編列預算你們有沒有依照這個不得定前沿的預算數我認為這樣的一個定數是違反侵犯了行政院的編列決定哪有一個定數但是這個財化法已經經過總統公告生效"},{"start":29293.451,"end":29318.359,"text":"我們未來或許基於憲政的救濟有其他的方式但基於讓預算能夠如期的上路我們還是依照這個方式在編定明年度的中央政府的預算所以說院長的意思就是有 對不對就會依照這樣的方式在115年度編列不會低於2500億的一般性補助款嗎院長剛這三話我可以這樣解讀嗎有 但是我不代表我們完全認為它是合法合憲"},{"start":29319.488,"end":29349.028,"text":"既然剛剛院長提到了經費財化法上路也就是說現在115年度在編列的預算就是依照財化法上路的一個方式在編列是嗎我們已經做這樣的準備工作了請問有沒有事前跟地方政府去做一些全責的劃分還有預算的分配在整個預算編制原則抵定之後一定跟地方政府告訴地方政府要如何的編列這個就是一個溝通的過程往年如此今年一樣"},{"start":29349.747,"end":29363.361,"text":"所以表示我們也會跟地方的政府好好的溝通而不是像今年這樣忽然三足道他們一般性補助款636億讓他們真的是措手不及今年的115年度的預算應該是不會有這樣的狀況"},{"start":29365.203,"end":29394.193,"text":"今年也有告訴地方政府預算立法院審查的結果我們會適時來調整我們看一下立法院我們針對這一次剛剛院長也特別提到的我們總共統三的項目其實就是11項其中這一部分的話根本沒有所謂的一般性補助款所以對於行政院自行砍掉一般性補助款根本就是在曲解立法院的決議也是在濫權行政依照統三的結果"},{"start":29394.853,"end":29422.371,"text":"也刪不掉939億其實 院長很多地方其實都可以刪比如說像這兩天發生的就業安定基金5000多億審計部請你們要追回應該是要像違法者追回結果不是你們說你們還要編列公務預算回補這個濫用的錢所以這樣子當然會沒錢所以說其實我覺得有很多地方其實都可以刪就是因為"},{"start":29423.812,"end":29433.405,"text":"亂扶邊爛邊我們才會刪 其實我相信有很多地方可以刪如果您真的不了解的話其實各部會自己都很清楚"},{"start":29435.41,"end":29453.635,"text":"我們可以看到在一百今年的六月四號在立法院裁委會接受備詢的時候主計總署有提供了三個方案給您選擇主計長也在這裡第一個是刪減國債利息的支出B案是刪除一般性補助款三市以上各刪減一半"},{"start":29454.835,"end":29472.123,"text":"而院長卻選擇了B案就是影響最大的刪減一般性的補助款而一般性的補助款是用在哪裡用在教育補助社會福利還有基礎建設還有其他基本支出跟平衡預算的補助所以您可以看到如果針對債務的支出我們今年有1073億"},{"start":29474.884,"end":29491.352,"text":"所以如果你那時候可以選擇先從這個刪除一般的債務支出然後最後再來追加預算這樣就不會影響到地方政府的一般性補助那為何院長您不這樣處理而是選擇傷害地方政府運作最大的一個做法"},{"start":29492.267,"end":29518.16,"text":"半線補助裡面有900億的徵域裁員的預算我們是希望這個地方政府能夠從這裡來做自行調整那我剛講的啊你這一般的這個債務支出你其實只要先刪這個你只要先刪636億你在這個追加預算根本不會影響到地方政府啊是因為15個縣市都是國民黨執政所以你才要用這樣的一個方式嗎否則的話為什麼你不用一個傷害最小的方式而是用傷害最大的地方性補助款的方式"},{"start":29518.854,"end":29542.752,"text":"三選之後我們有意見的也是南部幾個縣市我們也一一加以說明只要有來找行政院其實這種方式我覺得您選擇了一個最糟的一個方式就是三足地方因為我們就面臨一個最糟的狀況我可以跟院長看一下就是其實我們在這個過程當中很多的地方政府都跟我們反映因為事實上在113年7月要編類給地方政府的一般性付出款"},{"start":29543.132,"end":29554.884,"text":"是雙方經過討論並經立法院審議通過那行政院突然刪除這筆因撥付的補助款的時候請問你們有跟地方政府討論而且獲得他們的同意嗎"},{"start":29556.903,"end":29568.232,"text":"同樣的這句話應該在審查中央總預算的時候立法院要想到當你要求刪減939億的人有跟行政院討論過嗎公文下去就說我要刪減你27.3% 636億元讓地方措手不及這樣的方式怎麼會讓地方政府能夠有辦法因應呢就刪減了939億不是嗎我們不要忘了那一段"},{"start":29586.526,"end":29606.56,"text":"造成社會紛亂的那一段我現在以雲林縣為例一般性補助款被刪減了37.6億導致社福基礎建設預算崩潰所以本席在6月4號在財委會的質詢的時候我有詢問雲林縣政府的秘書長曾元黃刪除27.3%的經費對雲林縣政府有什麼影響"},{"start":29611.744,"end":29640.43,"text":"我們看一下影片各上級政府為謀求地方的均衡發展對於財力較差的地方政府應予以補助所以我們現在先聽雲林縣政府先說明一下我們刪減了27.3%的經費之後對地方有什麼影響那基礎設施的部分我想要更強調一點就是雲林縣是一個很重要的農業生產基地汛期也到了 颱風期也到了那這些基礎的設施都靠著這些補助款所以對農民的生命財產確實有很大的影響"},{"start":29641.772,"end":29647.72,"text":"院長 當時在6月4號這個曾元華秘書長就已經有提醒我們了"},{"start":29648.752,"end":29670.651,"text":"在這個階段因為是汛期是颱風期所以他就說針對這些補助款是汛期跟房貸的一個救命前請不要這樣子用這樣的一個方式因為這要用在基礎這個設施或者是一些災害補助的因應方面但是行政院還是執意要扣扣這些補助導致地方沒有辦法那麼多的經費房貸救災災損擴大"},{"start":29671.952,"end":29697.649,"text":"所以我們可以看到明明知道7月就是颱風季但卻還是用這樣子看這個三重的一般性補助款就是把人民的生產安全呢無視於他們的存在所以請問院長聽到這樣的發言之後你有沒有毛骨悚然啊有沒有覺得說當時為什麼要這樣做而導致這一次這個丹納斯颱風的風災造成這麼大的一個損失呢這是丹納斯颱風造成的各縣市的損失行政院原本可以用稅計證明"},{"start":29699.13,"end":29725.396,"text":"儘快的來編列各項的預算但現在我們必須舉債而且來颱風來的時候我們沒有到各縣市去就實際所自災的情況予以必要的任何的補助跟搶救嗎我們都有做到只是現在我們多增加的舉債必須編列特別預算就是這樣子我們可以看到其實這段時間災區不管是它的屋頂開動總統叫他們自己去修屋頂"},{"start":29726.036,"end":29747.657,"text":"或者是說抽水機來不及抽水而且還有很多的災害行政院說這次的刪減是要落實財政的紀律但是中南部的災損十分的嚴重地方也沒錢救災這是紀律還是懲罰人民陳院長你要不要為這次不當的刪減跟全國人民道歉"},{"start":29748.697,"end":29771.967,"text":"我們是在面對來自立法院大量刪除行政院的預算以及要我們自行調整我們無法在這個自行調整當中去挪出其他的預算所以請地方共體時間那只要今天我們提出的解方能夠被大院所接受我們一起最佳預算通過之後所有問題包括中央各部會目前的結局跟地方政府財政上的困難一併解決院長"},{"start":29773.817,"end":29785.739,"text":"我現在要代表地方政府跟您說一下他們的心聲因為現在就是地方政府其實面對汛期的時候面對颱風的時候他們本來有足夠的經費可以去提前準備"},{"start":29786.516,"end":29809.117,"text":"可以去提前預防可以減少颱風的災損它在事後也可以在災後迅速的投入救災但是呢因為行政院這次這個刪減了一般性補助款把一些受災相關的經費通通都這個砍掉了73%所以才會在這次釀成這樣子的一個災禍其實看起來這不只是天災還是人禍"},{"start":29810.999,"end":29819.889,"text":"所以針對這個事情我覺得行政院要負最大的責任所以院長您有沒有覺得行政院應該是針對這次颱風還是因為行政院的預算被刪除之後呢"},{"start":29825.896,"end":29846.005,"text":"我們有很多的應該可以作為用在災區的救援或是事前預防的一個過程剛剛已經講在6月4號他們就提醒了現在這個就是颱風季可能會遇到這樣的汛期 颱風季砍掉這一般新股補助款對於他們來說確實會有很大的危機6月4號提出來的可是行政院不當一回事還是繼續砍 繼續刪減"},{"start":29848.766,"end":29877.8,"text":"而不讓地方政府有足夠的這個經費來去營營那你認為這樣跟行政院沒有關係嗎我們當初我就說過了如果這樣的刪除未來颱風來的時候我們到地方去我們拿什麼跟地方來做合作院長如果你們沒有刪除一般性補助款地方早就自己做好幹嘛還需要你中央政府來去地方救災他自己早就做好了所以你當時本末倒置根本沒有真正的去了解這一次的緣由所以我覺得真的院長你真的要跟全國人民道歉"},{"start":29878.22,"end":29881.943,"text":"一起解決問題好 謝謝徐議政委的質詢也謝謝卓院長備詢接下來登記第15號張雅玲委員登記第16號"},{"start":29894.707,"end":29920.339,"text":"賴會員委員登記第十七號王振旭委員三位委員之質詢均以書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報再下來請登記第十八號羅志強委員請質詢主席有請院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":29932.06,"end":29953.577,"text":"委員好院長好一般補助款的風波我看已經燒進行政院院會那我有些問題要請教我想請教院長行政院院會之所以邀請地方政府的原因是什麼行政院院會為什麼邀請地方政府因為我們邀請地方是以六都首長為"},{"start":29955.233,"end":29980.047,"text":"邀請的對象 對他們來陳述地方對中央的一些期待或者把反映地方的民情讓中央能夠第一線了解更清楚非常好 就是中央地方強化溝通嘛對不對 攜手為人民做事嘛絕對不會是鴻門宴嘛 對不對從來不是 從來不是喔 非常好從來不是用鴻門宴來鬥地方首長嘛 對不對從來不是 非常好"},{"start":29980.816,"end":29998.734,"text":"那盧西恩市長這個月14號參加行政院院會他就是要為地方政府爭取被行政院刪掉的一般性補助款該不該刪我們待會討論但是就一個地方政府的市長他來爭取他的一般性補助款請問是不是他的本質"},{"start":30001.014,"end":30022.898,"text":"盧市長當天在院會是針對地方對於一些補助款的事項還有其他的事情我先講嘛他爭取一般性補助款請問是他的本質嗎這一點我聽到了非常好啊 他爭取他的本質啊結果隔天你們的彭啟明部長上電視節目說盧縣長很不客氣啊像媽媽在罵兒子很兇很悍啊"},{"start":30027.691,"end":30053.159,"text":"我想請教彭部長的發言是您授意的嗎就要去節目上講的嗎知道院長不會授意彭部長當然知道你不會授意啊那我再問你下一件事情行政院院會內的內容用他片面之詞在節目上來去揭之於眾用他的方式來去解讀說盧秀恩很兇很悍請問院長你覺得這樣做是對的嗎部長在"},{"start":30056.499,"end":30075.182,"text":"院會裡面的感受我沒有辦法一一的跟他們做了解溝通你是院長耶我只問你對這件事情你覺得妥不妥當你還跟我講說他的感受如何對啊 部長他感受如果今天不能夠符合我們行政院今天去破壞行政院院會的和諧你說院長有沒有責任去稍微去是啦"},{"start":30076.803,"end":30101.11,"text":"提點一下他形容的方式我沒有辦法去約束他那回來我問你 他形容方式你認同嗎我問你 他形容方式你認同嗎你覺得盧秀恩市長是像媽媽一樣在罵你這個兒子嗎也許彭部長的媽媽是這樣罵他我的媽媽是沒有這樣罵我所以你覺得盧秀恩這樣罵你嗎像罵兒子一樣罵你嗎盧市長是不是如何罵他的孩子我也不知道"},{"start":30103.315,"end":30131.1,"text":"彭部長說卢市長罵你就像媽媽罵兒子一樣你這句話你不敢回答所以我說嘛彭部長的媽媽你連一個不認同都說不出口不是啦彭部長的媽媽也許這樣罵他彭部長媽媽怎麼罵他家的事啦也許他認為就像媽媽我問你今天你有沒有覺得盧秀恩像媽媽一樣罵你啦我的媽媽沒有這樣罵我你的媽媽有沒有罵你那是你們家的事情啦我也沒辦法干涉啦我也不知道盧市長如何罵他的小孩我也不知道啊"},{"start":30132.927,"end":30141.188,"text":"院長 你如果真的覺得這種狡辯的方式你可以讓台灣人民覺得你有回答問題我也欣賞你"},{"start":30142.216,"end":30160.446,"text":"我看民進黨這一年來就呈現你這種鬼打牆的狡辯方式你現在要我去我三段論問你彭啟明是不是在節目上說盧秀燕罵你像媽媽罵兒子一樣很兇很漢這是事實問題有沒有他有這麼講謝謝嘛第二個事實問題"},{"start":30163.348,"end":30186.725,"text":"今天盧修遠在行政院院會對卓榮泰像媽媽罵兒子一樣罵得很兇很汗嗎有沒有 我不知道他是如何罵他小孩我怎麼會知道他怎麼會罵他小孩他有沒有罵你很兇很汗我媽媽沒有這樣罵我他有沒有罵你很兇很汗他沒有 我們在謝謝他沒有我們在會上謝謝 謝謝有得到我的答案啦我只是希望說他能夠針對答案謝謝你 不用改口啦"},{"start":30188.877,"end":30213.976,"text":"他會罵你很兇很憨再來講一次你剛剛講沒有要改口給你最後一次機會改口我說他如何罵他小孩我不知道我不管你爸媽了啦我現在只問他罵你很兇很憨有沒有你一直要給我亂扯什麼媽媽像不像媽媽你要給我搞這個邏輯遊戲沒關係我斷這個邏輯斷掉我只問他會罵你很兇很憨有沒有我們那天就事論事討論事項就沒有嘛語氣上面我有請他說不要在這裡"},{"start":30215.778,"end":30235.372,"text":"你真的 你們本來行政院發言還否認說你沒有叫他你沒有去叫什麼不要創造聲量所以搞到半天 原來是你指示彭部長啊你認為盧秀燕創造聲量 是這個意思嗎我只是說他 請他能夠停止發言 我要跟院長說我有問他一句話 我要跟院長說抱歉齁 畢仁在下齁 也在政府服務過"},{"start":30240.745,"end":30265.557,"text":"國民黨執政行政院院會不會有這種事情不會有閣員到節目上去攻擊陳其邁 攻擊賴清德攻擊民進黨的地方首長啦我那天有請問 盧市長你是不是不支持追加餘順我也問他這句話我現在已經跳題了 你還不翻篇啊我告訴你 兩個政府的高下 格局 格調可見一般 讓人民公平來 想請教你下一題"},{"start":30266.477,"end":30287.501,"text":"我想請教 院長你也承認今年總預算史上最高嘛對不對 我看你答詢的時候講過啊六都都是史上最高對 很好 你就說有新增項目兩千多億嘛 對不對兩千八百零六億那我不客氣的講你這話說跟沒說一樣哪一個政府沒有新增項目啊所以史上最高不是最過啊沒關係 這後面要講史上最高不是最過我下一題問你 我這題要問你我想請問"},{"start":30290.522,"end":30315.079,"text":"貴院今年史上最高就是40嘛 沒錯嘛你有沒有聽過一句話就是被人家傳為接你部長閣攜的人選蔣萬事長推薦的童子賢他說不會辭家就換人啦你認不認同這句話不會辭家就換人 有沒有認同這句話不會什麼不會辭家就換人啦這句話放諸世來皆準非常好 放諸世來皆準希望放在你身上不要準啦"},{"start":30316.155,"end":30329.739,"text":"馬總統執政時候編列的最低總預算是多少2009年1.81兆編列最高總預算是多少2016年1.99兆蔡英文執政時編列最低的總預算是多少2017年1.97兆最高是多少2024年2.88兆就算算進統三"},{"start":30344.81,"end":30365.826,"text":"在總統任命的您行政院總預算2.92還比馬英九總統時候高出9300億就馬英九總統最高的總預算也高出9300億比蔡英文最高的總預算也高出400億別的政府都能夠拿比較低的預算做事你不能 抱歉啊我覺得童子賢講的話很適用在你身上啊"},{"start":30366.707,"end":30381.636,"text":"不會持家就換人嘛2025年的事情你拿到2008年去比嗎拜託你啊我拿了還有一個叫2024年啦2024年你也不認2005年的事情拿到2008抱歉我講的是2016年的事耶"},{"start":30382.657,"end":30399.157,"text":"2016年是蔡總統2016年是2016年馬政府的最高的總預算也比你們要少9300億啊我可以去查一查2016年馬總統當年的總預算在當時是不是也是史上最高"},{"start":30400.475,"end":30416.273,"text":"當時我跟你講我說過每個政府最高是一回事我抱歉喔不是每一年都最高喔不是每一年都最高我看過喔也有低也有這年比去年少的有有經濟成長如果高的話那我們必須來啦來啦我告訴你啦"},{"start":30417.294,"end":30432.866,"text":"從所謂的1.9兆變成是2.9兆多了快要1兆這樣子你告訴我說經濟成長沒關係我再問你下一個問題你再報告說史上最高預算不是最過對不對因為地方政府史上預算有很多最高對不對"},{"start":30434.307,"end":30445.9,"text":"因為我們在編今年預算的時候賴總統有指示我們不編特別預算我認同你史上最高預算不是罪過嘛你只要強調這件事我就認同啦來來來但亂花錢總是罪過吧"},{"start":30449.113,"end":30474.778,"text":"如果沒有準決預算的話會違反我們整個施政的理念我聽你報告說你為什麼不刪中央政府總預算卻把638億全部轉給地方政府因為你實在挪不出空間嘛你今天答詢說的嘛 對不對我們已經被刪了1439億你少來啦 1430多億其中1000億是台電的那個補助啦剩下的錢是我們一下一下覺得政府我們該拿掉的統刪就是636億要你去動的啦"},{"start":30476.918,"end":30502.027,"text":"所以你不要再玩數字遊戲沒關係 我們就拿這636億來這636億是不是全部刪地方政府的補助款是不是我們是拖減地方政府的補助款天啊 這你都答不出來你就全砍地方政府 拖減25%啊總共刪636億啊 這個你也不敢回答沒有錯啊謝謝你嘛 為什麼繞那麼多圈來 你找不出空間你就推給地方政府啊"},{"start":30503.479,"end":30529.033,"text":"這是什麼擔當跟肩膀來沒關係我再說問你你是不是說因為行政院不是魔術師對不對你說過啦陳其邁跟黃偉哲就是魔術師你推給他們他們就該死那你又說行政院不是印鈔機你講的嘛沒錯吧奇怪了那蔣萬安跟盧秀恩他們就開印鈔機啊所以我們16361就可以丟給他我們請地方跟中央共體時間我跟你講我今天公道一點跟院長說啦"},{"start":30532.427,"end":30555.185,"text":"636億齁如果你今天講說真的立法院刪的不對立法院刪的我們實在受不了那我跟你講那這樣子我們努力擠200億啦刪中央啦400億刪地方啦或是400億刪中央啦200億刪地方啦齁我都覺得你還有那麼一丁點的公道你不是啊你不想當魔術師你叫陳其邁當魔術師啊636億全部刪給地方啊"},{"start":30556.005,"end":30578.997,"text":"我們已經刪了1430億 你又來跟我搞數字遊戲1400多億裡面1400億是台電的補助 指名項目而且台電的該不該撥補 我們大家另外的辯論題另外剩下是我們每天逐條逐條說哪些預算該刪的 你又混同一談統刪部分 行政院自行調整總共多少"},{"start":30579.557,"end":30607.992,"text":"而且被凍結1000多億桶山部分行政凍結幾乎都解凍了你到底要不要翻篇啊當時沒有我看現在都解凍了嘛你要不要翻篇那沒關係當時現在都解凍了啊來 今天左動台你要不要公開跟大家講6361立刻還給地方政府你都講解凍了啊當時沒有所以現在我們需要能夠回復這個追加預算我們就能夠跟地方你不要追加預算是另外一回事我回頭跟你講"},{"start":30610.149,"end":30628.789,"text":"你就是已經講清楚6361統三是全部刪地方你就刪一塊錢把行政院刪掉我都還要進行一塊錢的公道你全部都刪地方你今天可以告訴我來你拍胸脯告訴大家你剩下這兩兆九千億沒有一毛錢是浪費的你敢拍出胸脯嗎"},{"start":30629.884,"end":30652.25,"text":"所以你一塊錢都不願意刪我們會用準決的方式來執行我看你 看你怎麼準決你那麼有自信 沒有浪費準決王宏威介入大資獨資資本十萬元公司文化部111年 114年給了他一千多萬證交所又給了他一千萬 加起來就兩千萬"},{"start":30653.783,"end":30669.905,"text":"真正獨立的音樂人不當側翼的音樂人能拿到你行政院20萬都了不起你給個側翼2000萬你跟我講沒有浪費錢這個部分文化部已經解釋過了文化部解釋過啊來 給社會大眾看看啊"},{"start":30670.615,"end":30685.49,"text":"你去看看那些真的苦哈哈的獨立音樂製作人看到這一個做影片攻擊在野黨的大隻拿兩千萬你跟我講你沒有浪費你說得出口讓人民去聽不聽得下去再來大隻投桃報李啊"},{"start":30686.691,"end":30709.44,"text":"罷免期間做影片修理在野黨啊如果民進黨政府你不要拿人民的納稅錢去養側翼這兩千萬就省下來了你的636億你就有兩千萬你不要去砍地方政府那我想請問你不去檢討這些側翼的錢你刪了一方性補助款你知道刪掉什麼錢嗎 你知道嗎"},{"start":30712.092,"end":30733.212,"text":"兒童、老年、少年身心障礙的福利經費教育經費、人本交通、人行道改善、道路交通改善你刪的都叫救命錢啊這裡面有900億的證據裁員的部分因為地方政府已經我講6361你不要跟我扯到別的地方去所以我們真的刪減是一般性的補助啊刪一般性補助還沒有刪到"},{"start":30733.752,"end":30741.3,"text":"福利沒有刪到交通建設沒有刪到教育那裡面有900億的爭域我問你這633億不要再跳針沒關係我告訴你你這個光交通經費是攸關人命"},{"start":30748.666,"end":30776.216,"text":"你今天為了養大隻你一毛錢不肯去刪你去全部刪一個地方大隻是一回事來我們沒有去養任何的零日供給2022到2024年就業安定基金可以拿到2800萬的補助然後包括九把刀他的國片輔導金幾千萬 幾千萬加起來起碼超過6000萬"},{"start":30778.431,"end":30796.586,"text":"結果呢 大罷免很乖啊 這些人都出來跳出來挺大罷免啊政府的合法法要滿滿啊我回頭最後一句話 時間也不多啦今天你真的是一個公道的院長我告訴你 你636億 你不會全部刪地方啦"},{"start":30797.352,"end":30817.821,"text":"你不要跟我講行政院沒有一毛錢值得檢討你就算只刪行政院一塊錢我都還覺得你有檢討一塊錢行政院現在還有五億被凍結不是啊五億啊兩兆九千億跟我講五億凍結行政院還有五億被彈劫兩兆九千億跟我講五億凍結你不檢討一下這五億為什麼被凍結我講六三六億你講五億"},{"start":30821.903,"end":30831.489,"text":"我們還有無意被動 沒關係我知道啦你答不出來一直轉焦點可是我告訴你 你可以不用理我啦25比0就是因為今天你們行政院這種蠻憨的態度25比0啦 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝羅志強委員的資訊謝謝卓院長備詢"},{"start":30845.495,"end":30873.094,"text":"接下來登記第19號陳培宇委員諮詢以書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報再接下來我們本日最後一位登記諮詢委員請賴世保委員諮詢謝謝主席韓院長以及各位先進有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":30883.968,"end":30897.617,"text":"院長你好 辛苦了我是最後一位 希望你可以心情放輕鬆一點不過一開始我要跟你講韓院長的話你要多聽他很早就告訴你用追加預算 跟你尬"},{"start":30898.766,"end":30923.13,"text":"你就不聽 我知道你那時候想什麼因為你要添柴火 為大罷免添柴火所以不得不不跟不上二十五比零 莫名全都非這就是不聽韓院長的話的結果跟這裡拐拐 教育這樣追加預算我是很客氣的啦 但是呢謝謝賴委員 韓院長之間有很多故事只有我們兩個人知道"},{"start":30923.77,"end":30946.21,"text":"這樣子喔 你們秘密不能講得對喔Just between you and him來 我們來看喔追加預算 還要講咖哩一波你們的處計長來找我 我會跟他這樣講結果後來你就不要 因為有大半門來啊好 開始燒了 開始抹黑喔來 但是那個都翻篇了啦 翻篇了啦"},{"start":30947.219,"end":30970.639,"text":"我們看到 追加預算不要等於趁火打劫啦左院長啊 你跨界金事務部怎麼會做這種事呢我們總共省減2075億扣掉台電的1070億 那個不算那個要另外轉換來處理 1000億不算我們就整個來講的話 就算多少 1075億"},{"start":30972.741,"end":30997.617,"text":"這一次追加預算 如果通通給你 百分之百都給你878給你 我們只剩下197億喔197億是什麼概念 你編的預算3.1兆所以三減的幅度是0.63%過去五年來 過去十年來 最少1%起跳還是跟老柯 大家是在那裡談八減"},{"start":30999.338,"end":31016.766,"text":"大家看大概數字就是一趴左右三減的弧度他一趴左右結果你這樣來講你還沒拍誰我們山裡這樣子你把你拿回來更多來我們來看哪幾個部門臉皮厚的第一個行政院"},{"start":31017.861,"end":31038.176,"text":"你們多拿回來就追加的比3減的還多31億外交部多了7億1000萬海洋委員會多了4.2億海洋委員會或許他說我要增加什麼海防我覺得可以另外考慮說不定但是你增加31億 院長啊"},{"start":31041.043,"end":31054.714,"text":"趁火打劫啊 院長報告委員 下週有正式的議程 我們會一一詳列那今天我們只針對這個部分來做回答沒有 我先跟你講啊 你現在來講0.63來 我們再看第二頁齁這裡面打灌水的"},{"start":31061.224,"end":31079.226,"text":"現在喔 我是用最寬鬆的角度跟你講的其實我們不同 不少委員還反對636給你喔那我是站在 我還是引用韓院長問政啊 用愛心問政愛心來問政啊你現在這個事情喔 你砍636是非常不對的"},{"start":31081.196,"end":31096.083,"text":"因為前面多少我已經跟你講這是法律之初法定之初三讀通過你要砍他哪裡有道理但是因為我看韓院長說愛心這個我勉強我個人我不代表他"},{"start":31096.883,"end":31117.335,"text":"一句話7878或者733我們願意跟大院合理的來討論來來來來我先跟你講喔進法補償將近24億這個應該給你再來人事費因為加薪的這段時間要加薪軍人加薪的62億給你公投11億要給"},{"start":31119.147,"end":31143.412,"text":"老實講 你們已經用第二億北京那個罷免的示意為什麼罷免 那是公民團體發起的第二億北京這個公投是立法院發起的我們應該是以公民為大吧那示意也不要沒關係 如果你不要示意也沒關係所以你灌水的145億我現在就正式跟你說我聽到的消息是什麼"},{"start":31145.191,"end":31170.279,"text":"說行政院啊 拜託哥不會喔他沒有需要你 拜託給你點 給你點 給你點你要求他們 大家來搶這個預算成績卡有啊哪一個部會跟委員這麼講如果委員敢講出來 我馬上處分我當然有啊 我當然不要講 我怎麼可以講就是為什麼灌水 你灌水145億喔你灌水145億"},{"start":31171.744,"end":31187.375,"text":"除了這幾個我已經用最寬鬆的因為剛才那個委員問中完了就告訴我說630億 6億不能給因為630億不能給因為你砍的地方的錢沒有道理我說我們寧願寬鬆一點"},{"start":31194.428,"end":31218.892,"text":"我覺得這可以給那請委員支持讓你去影響其他的委員但是你的145億不能給總統增加幾千萬幹什麼我就說是878億或是733億我們都可以合理的來討論我們願意就是在創造一個我是說我們願意創造一個合理討論的空間跟時機啊這個不要討價還價而且來來來我們就看下一頁"},{"start":31220.253,"end":31225.099,"text":"你這裡面更扯的是什麼媒體廣宣還要增加4.3億"},{"start":31227.278,"end":31251.036,"text":"跟扯啊 沒有追扯就跟扯啊你增加4.3億啊 這幹什麼呢過去我們都沒有啦不是過去我們沒有做什麼事這半年以來我們完全沒有行政院沒有媒體政策宣導的費用 完全沒有啦行政院的部分給你們7.21元在這裡啊 怎麼沒有呢"},{"start":31253.139,"end":31258.387,"text":"我們的發言系統完全沒有相關的經費除了人事費之外都沒有經費不過你發言系統一定要出來罵人怎麼沒有呢"},{"start":31260.811,"end":31285.839,"text":"哪有出來罵人出來罵盧秀燕啊 怎麼沒有呢沒有出來罵人傳達院會後的因為講到你的通知所以幫你換掉 換通知先所以你出來罵人怎麼沒有呢怎麼會說沒有人發言一定當然發言怎麼沒有呢那不是發言系統出來罵人那是我們回應媒體的詢問"},{"start":31290.56,"end":31310.467,"text":"因為我們天天被罵啊被罵是應該的 罵人就不應該你權力大啊 當然要虛心接受權力大怎麼會被要求 當然要接受監督啊 接受批評啊權力大怎麼會被要求被自刑刪減636億你權力這麼大 當然要接受監督啊我告訴你喔 等一下等一下"},{"start":31315.407,"end":31333.929,"text":"我現在告訴你我們最佳預算我們算已經盡力了財委會我下禮拜會排最佳預算我會排起來可是真的到最後通過要到什麼時候10月底11月左右才能夠最後三度這個預算要這麼長的時間因為"},{"start":31335.831,"end":31364.384,"text":"我相信韓院長有安排一整的時間跟他的安排的方向我們委員會還是要走一下救災的我們會安排很快的到下禮拜三度但是追加預算沒辦法我希望就災後 旦那是颱風的以及韌性的產業支持這兩部分這兩個一定要趕快救災的只有救災的"},{"start":31365.553,"end":31392.294,"text":"產業支持也很重要委員你對產業界那麼瞭解關於後關稅時代的產業支持非常重要你要跟立法院要錢要趕快送來這個你要講任性你現在把他插出去講任性我就跟你講任性我們通過了四千五百億你為什麼不執行呢你執行趕快預算送來就給你過了你要趕快修正修正來我們看下一頁"},{"start":31395.117,"end":31414.472,"text":"就是你要跟修正到5900億修正到5900億不知道為什麼要修正差了多少 差了450億為什麼要搞這個東西然後把他們拖 我研究很久因為我們對弱勢要加強而且如果真的是發1萬塊 2350億是不夠所以要加10億"},{"start":31419.755,"end":31440.041,"text":"另外有對台電那麼辛苦的修復很多的電網韌性已經超乎原來的計畫之外的毀損這麼多所以希望加強這部分200億另外編列的第二期200億你需要的時候我們再送來你不要扯那麼遠 我來跟你講一個比較我想要談的軍公教的調薪你們態度怎麼樣"},{"start":31443.1,"end":31455.472,"text":"兵弓教條星他都有固定的時間 像最近我知道他最近有在開一些相關的會議我們要考慮到說"},{"start":31457.721,"end":31482.893,"text":"現在這個時機軍公教調薪對產業界會發生什麼影響我們希望民間也調薪嘛對不對軍公教調薪最重要希望民間也調薪民間調薪的結果對現在的中小微企業會不會造成在後關稅時代更多的壓力我們正在探尋這方面的反應所以你傾向不調薪喔我們還在徵詢當中你傾向不調薪喔你的意思是不調薪喔我們在徵詢當中我們已經連續兩年都調薪了我跟你講喔因為你已經回答前面的委員"},{"start":31486.275,"end":31502.603,"text":"所以明年度的總預算是根據新的財劃法通過了大概就中央撥3700多億給地方政府所以條薪你只要負責166億地方政府自己負擔116億這個很清楚這個漲漿算的總共200多億這個漲漿預算來講這個卓院長"},{"start":31508.891,"end":31524.808,"text":"人家都說你大師兄你善於溝通但是我很客觀的老實講我非常客觀的觀察你這一年多來你是個吵架內閣啊你不是溝通內閣啊吵架然後呢 釋憲"},{"start":31526.86,"end":31548.837,"text":"然後呢 呼籲我們立法院代表百分之百的民意通過了法案 三路通過法案啪 一個巴掌打過來不夠 實現 啪 又一個巴掌打過去兩院怎麼會好呢所以難怪人家說要把你換掉一句話而已 通過之前我們如何請立法院重新考量立法院也從來沒有一次"},{"start":31549.577,"end":31567.509,"text":"在通過這樣的法律之前重新考量過就直接表決我們復譽是被動的而且是依照憲法賦予行政院責任跟權利沒有啦你們到最後復譽就是為了要累積大罷免的籌碼啦不要忘了我就給你死刑倒帶老柯 柯建民"},{"start":31568.376,"end":31588.215,"text":"我多年來好朋友來來聽我講不要急大院通過職權刑事法的時候我們根本還沒有到立法院到行政院來你不要急喔老柯在去年1月13號選完1月15號就說了要推動大罷免要改變他差六席要把他贏過來差六席所有的行政院配合他"},{"start":31589.176,"end":31609.25,"text":"你配合他 所以這個東西老實講 你一實現兩岸的關係就不好 兩院的關係就不好越來越糟 越來越糟 這是惡心螺旋大家如果彼此諒解對方 那就不一樣了這個來講 很多事情是可以溝通的 你們也不溝通我隨便講 總預算的時候"},{"start":31610.233,"end":31634.535,"text":"我們都知道每次從歷年來協商 院長組織的協商我在這裡二十幾年 每一次就跟老科都要獨宅啊說來說去 都要協商但是你看 行院長這麼辛苦我都替他捨不得被老科這樣糟蹋老科盤古開天開始講起不要跟你協商啊 給他拖時間為什麼 他要累積這個錯分子"},{"start":31635.456,"end":31662.181,"text":"累積全民累積然後你們開始洗腦透過你們所支持的車役還有這個剛才有幾個委員提到的給這個給那個來開始修理在黑黨累積這個啊今天如果你回來回來回來你原來大師兄的本分所以不要講話你給我講話一句話就好委員不要一句話來回到你我希望你回到原來大師兄回來善於溝通"},{"start":31663.584,"end":31690.1,"text":"算你協調的著龍胎而不是受老柯的影響為了要推動大罷免讓你們要一黨獨大獨採這樣子的話 今天的局面不一樣韓院長早就跟你講了 要追加預算你到今天再提議委員那你是不是支持我以後我說我們要調整財政支出結構在財化法之後我要調整財政支出結構委員同意嗎"},{"start":31691.052,"end":31713.819,"text":"這個你看怎麼調整啊第二個我要調整兩院互動模式我真要提的一個案子我本來要審下禮拜 我當召委我要審結果禮拜一要給運匯了沒辦法審就是地方補助款不可以刪所以我第二個我希望調整兩院互動模式委員同意嗎你覺得現在不好是吧"},{"start":31715.058,"end":31735.166,"text":"兩院互動模式因為你剛剛講了那麼多所以我們不溝通我們吵架所以我們以後來調整兩院互動模式那怎麼調整好不好當然好啊好啊那我們就照這個方向像這兩週韓院長主持的草野協商進度都非常好方向都是我們共同希望的就照這個兩院互動模式來走下去"},{"start":31735.709,"end":31753.388,"text":"少一點的全模就可以調整我很少用任何全模我沒有用任何全模大家打開天窗說亮話啦823之後會更明顯那個 卓院長啊823對我來講我只負責把公投辦好其他都不是我們"},{"start":31754.429,"end":31778.81,"text":"投票秩序辦好任何的投票秩序辦好我希望823之後還能看到你來立法院我還希望你能看到你來立法院但是我更希望有一個超然的人來接你的位置823有公投 有罷免我的責任是把秩序辦好結論都不在行政院的考量當中你換一個 兩個 三個 五個 那個不夠你最該被換掉"},{"start":31779.981,"end":31791.736,"text":"你卓院長應該換掉 應該stuck down讓新的人來接 我覺得氣溫可以更好謝謝好 謝謝賴思邦委員指揮 謝謝卓院長備詢"},{"start":31799.895,"end":31824.996,"text":"好 報告委員會我們本日排定的質詢委員均於質詢完畢謝謝卓院長以及相關部會首長列席的答詢現在做以下決定一 將各委員發言紀錄及書面質詢函送行政院請就未答覆的部分與書面答覆二 已提出這書面質詢尚未登載公報者一律補刊登今天非常感謝林倩琪委員 林益君委員"},{"start":31825.516,"end":31830.008,"text":"陪同我們一起進行今天的本次的會議現在會議進行到此為止散會 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}