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那我如果以後可以讓我穿短袖來我也可以"},{"start":39.059,"end":51.483,"text":"你要穿短袖穿短褲應該沒有人會反對那是更環保這真正是環境部的部長應該這麼說啦我會這麼請教你就是說因為一百一十年一十五年度的預算已經復違了"},{"start":53.419,"end":69.855,"text":"很不容易已經復為了現在已經過了第一季之後了那稍微用最快的速度來安排環境部的預算然後請部長來做這個報告今年的環境部的預算是有所增加但是我翻開環境部在115年度的預算"},{"start":71.193,"end":86.008,"text":"綜合企劃及管制考減了110萬空氣品質保護及噪音管制少了986萬水質保護又少了將近快2.7億一般行政增加了1800多萬"},{"start":89.301,"end":99.361,"text":"然後環境部是今年要在一般行政增加辦理中央空調節能工程等經費這個我想相關預算減少了然後那個水質保護又減了2.7億"},{"start":101.6,"end":120.618,"text":"那環境部的中央空調水塔主機要換一換預算書變了將近一千兩百多萬基本上要換一些節省的空調我想也是應該的不過部長你看你們這樣的一個預算的一個調整這樣在一百一十五年度算是合理嗎"},{"start":122.146,"end":138.546,"text":"包委員因為這個最主要是因為財務法過後我們把有一些原來的補助給地方的工作這個移到這個一般性的補助款去了所以在我們的本部的總預算的部分就有所刪減所以隨時保護基本上減到2.74都移給地方政府去處理"},{"start":139.267,"end":155.787,"text":"對,大概有4億多,我們只剩下大概8千多萬,編列水質保護8千多萬,那大概4億多都移到一般性的補助款去了4億多都移到給地方政府去?對對對,我們要不要水保師簡單說一下跟委員報告,我們有關水質保護基本上有兩個計畫,一個叫做"},{"start":158.47,"end":186.952,"text":"因應稀有變遷的縣市管河川跟排水改善另外一個叫做水質的一個永續水質的一個推動計畫那剛才這個現在大家看到的簡列的部分基本上就是永續水質改善計畫移到一般性的補助款那另外呢我們剛才提到的這個因應稀有變遷縣市管河川這個部分呢我們有增列變列了今年新增的5億那其中呢4.1億是給一般性的補助款"},{"start":187.812,"end":192.375,"text":"那也是增加了嘛,5億裡面是4.1給地方政府嘛不是因為這個2.7億是我們這邊減劣然後給地方政府嘛,不是這樣嘛"},{"start":200.624,"end":216.292,"text":"這個是另外一支計畫水質改善永續水質的推動計畫那個部分是從這個過去去年是編在水質保護這個向下那今年把它移到一般性補助款所以我們整體一般性的補助款有接近9.8億整體加起來有9.8億"},{"start":221.687,"end":246.021,"text":"那我們自己跟這你的單位這兩個的主計劃基本上是對照114年度是減了多少是增加 整體來講是增加但是給地方政府完了之後對照114年度到底是增加還是減少給了地方政府之後我們基本上是增加1.7億"},{"start":250.626,"end":277.9,"text":"還在增加1.7億是這個水質保護向下水污染防治增加1.7那另外飲用水管理也增加200萬好沒關係那我們到時候在審查預算的時候我再請教市長再說明清楚一點沒關係好那我再看到有一個叫強化這個環境檢測智慧轉型計畫那個計畫的期整是111年到116年嘛分六年辦理分六年辦理那本年度原本是續編第五年的經費7000多萬"},{"start":280.356,"end":306.745,"text":"那本科目已經暫緩編列那上年度所列的5800多萬又如數簡列這什麼狀況能不能簡單說明一下跟委員報告這個最主要是那個上下年度的那個預算編列的一個說明那這個所謂如數簡列這個部分是因為我們原來編列的預算在去年度114年編列預算是購買這個聲音照相的設備屬於大氣環境室的部分"},{"start":307.205,"end":330.263,"text":"在整體抱怨計畫裡面在114年已經執行完畢所以我們今年度就是115年就沒有再編列那這個文字的說明是這樣那至於第5年以後的這個7100多萬的這個部分呢是由我們國家環境研究院在執行所以那個項目是編列在國家環境研究院那你要保護就是說等於這6年的計畫基本上4年就已經完成了"},{"start":331.163,"end":353.54,"text":"大氣石的部分剩下的部分還有兩年計畫是國家環境研究院要購買相關的檢測儀器的部分那個還是有持續編列以上說明所以上年度所列的5800多萬無數檢列算是算是提到國環院我們的國環院就是上年度有編執行完畢的今年度就沒有再編這一筆費用"},{"start":357.588,"end":386.038,"text":"好 這樣我清楚那110年度的偵測噪音的儀器都已經買齊了80套 全國80套夠用嗎還是就不用再添夠了謝謝委員 目前根據我們統計全國大概有427套那當然就誠如委員講這個噪音的部分應該是能夠盡量再爭取這個聲音照相那所以我們其實有在報行政院一個計畫是智慧儀式家園管理計畫是115年到18年我們希望再爭取300套"},{"start":387.358,"end":415.988,"text":"但是這300這個目前這個經費是計劃雖然有通過但經費核定的情況還不夠所以我們還要再持續再爭取所以原本要編在115年度的預算裡面是沒有把這個這個要增加這個需求編入在裡面目前行政院只有核定我們1300萬尾班費而已他就是我們希望爭取的設備費他沒有核定了所以我們可能後續要再去爭取因為整個抱怨計劃是有通過抱怨計劃已經有通過了"},{"start":418.527,"end":423.633,"text":"我想是這樣,當時在112點,我希望讓環保署變成環境部,環境部就是要有一個佈局的高度,就是佈局的預算我是看到你們這個預算怎麼那邊減、那邊減、那邊減,然後你又要給地方政府"},{"start":437.509,"end":451.484,"text":"那當然剛剛這樣講我是能夠理解啦不過我想還是進入到實質在審查預算裡面會再跟各位就教會比較清楚啦那我想該用則用嘛 該審則審不該用就是不能再從這邊去讓無謂的浪費嘛好 我接下來一個問題你們請回吧一樣是預算問題"},{"start":457.049,"end":483.146,"text":"這個今年五月環境部就要正式開始收取這個碳配那收取碳配會進入到溫室氣體管理基金當中然後再由基金來做這個補助那減碳技術及地方溫室氣體的減量還有這個氣候變遷調適協調研擬及推動事項執行公正轉型相關工作最後還是要辦理這個建民轉型代管的利息補貼信任保證或其他有關事項對不對 部長"},{"start":485.487,"end":493.263,"text":"那環境部預估今年會有多少的經費在碳匯的這個項目來入帳大概45億那我們編列大概40億的經費"},{"start":497.546,"end":519.671,"text":"入45億,然後要支出40億左右,將近快九成嘛這個也算是一筆大預算嘛,對不對?那我想各界在擔憂,政府收了這些碳費之後,會不會又重複補助這個排碳的產業變成這個碳排的企業,左手交碳費,右手又拿你們這個減碳的補助費用整個這個減碳大打折扣,會不會是這樣?"},{"start":524.973,"end":551.129,"text":"跟委員報告有關這個碳費的收入那依照預算法我們都是經過基金管理會來討論所以當時就是去年基金管理會也對於這個碳費的支用有一個原則上的一個規劃跟討論那當然今年隨著我們5月底確定收到多少碳費之後會再有更詳細的補助辦法到基金管理會去做一個所以補助辦法到現在還沒有出來嗎"},{"start":551.829,"end":564.809,"text":"因為現在大概今年我們其實大部分的時間是在處理這個碳費的收入因為有這個高碳洩漏風險有自主減量計畫的審查那現在這個部分已經告一段落"},{"start":566.226,"end":583.849,"text":"我知道該更單獨,不過攤位補助辦法還是沒有出來補助辦法我們現在先進行的就是因為其中有一項是去對於這個利息補貼還有這個信保的這個部分那這個會涉及到我們要修改我們的這個基金的收支保管運用辦法那正在修這個辦法"},{"start":585.424,"end":613.958,"text":"你還是沒有答覆我的問題啦就是說會不會這邊腳炭會這邊一樣又是接這一手又切你們的這個排檔來答覆的這個相關補助我們主要是要補助齁如果有一些真的可以實質上減碳的一個技術如果說這個地方政府或是整個企業他有更好的一個減碳的技術出來那的確我們是有一些補助的一個措施我們編列了大概17億來做這個事情那其他 對"},{"start":614.938,"end":627.71,"text":"所以你補儲半島還沒有出來那大致上要框起來多少去補儲地方之後的17億已經已經有著落了對這個是包含了企業跟政府就是有一個這樣的一個規模有這樣的想法但是整個細節還沒有定出來"},{"start":628.991,"end":654.75,"text":"但是你的大筆的這大象的部分已經狂出來了嘛對對應該是這麼說嘛對不對那我請問一下剛剛有委員特別強調這個強化脆弱群體因應氣候變遷衝擊之能力這是入法在氣候變遷法裡面的第17條嘛部長知道嘛對不對像我們因應一些能力大限因應這種極端氣候等等等等不管是勞工不管是農民基本上坦白講是面對到非常大的挑戰那如果依照這一條第11條你們這個貪退的一個"},{"start":657.692,"end":662.239,"text":"預算規模大概是多少大概這個叫做調適調適大概是兩到三億左右不到10%"},{"start":667.708,"end":693.94,"text":"這樣比例合乎嗎目前生意就不到5%差不多5%左右因為這個其實溫管基建還是減碳為主所以包含我們現在剛剛的利息的補貼如果減碳技術的利息補貼或是說投資溫室氣體減碳的技術或是說有一些我們會用一個競爭型的如果說地方政府或是企業他有一個更好減碳的目標我們希望可以幫台灣趕快好的技術趕快先減到碳"},{"start":695.57,"end":716.378,"text":"我還是建議部長是不是整個的補助辦法趕快出來那我們來做參考好不好然後按照那個比例我們到時候在預算審查過程裡面還是可以大家是可以討論到了最後一個問題昨天那位總統要出訪非洲有幫國家授主一事那個部長有什麼看法嗎我為什麼要再問我一問部長這個問題是有HOMESHEET的相關問題"},{"start":718.657,"end":729.626,"text":"我覺得這個是非常沒有禮貌的一個打壓台灣的一個做法只有他們很沒有禮貌打壓台灣他們打壓台灣就沒有禮貌"},{"start":730.628,"end":752.701,"text":"這是惡劣嘛 非常惡質嘛 部長你就大膽講出來嘛 對不對而且這個違反國際的一個常理我們都清楚台灣的國際整個外交的處境是什麼樣的情況嘛所以很多過去台灣都是透過民間先行的這樣力量然後去讓整個外交得以增進國跟國之間的這樣交流那總統只是要過境這整個這樣的一個"},{"start":755.68,"end":772.571,"text":"非洲的航線就會受阻我是想說部長有沒有去思考到非洲是一個針對國際探權非常重要高增長的潛力大國是部長知道嗎非洲或是說中南美洲也都是是"},{"start":773.411,"end":786.855,"text":"所以台灣目前在談探權嘛,對不對?還是在導向在談國內的探權?沒有,還有包含國內的探會但是2030年之後要進入到不一樣的一個減碳階段嘛那藉著這個國際探權的問題"},{"start":788.616,"end":796.663,"text":"我們絕對沒辦法忽視嘛當然還有四年的時間嘛我想今天總統只是要從一個非洲經過就會出問題那2030年之後誰要來做這樣的一個承諾呢台灣一定能跟國外買到ITOM的國家級的探權嗎"},{"start":805.286,"end":821.662,"text":"報告委員我們其實在去年的時候我也有跟巴拉圭簽了一個MOU然後我也到了巴拉圭去討論這個我知道我們後續的正在進行實際上的這個ITMO的這個磋商協商所以我們的確在往那條路在走"},{"start":823.007,"end":843.642,"text":"對部長有先到巴拉圭這個我清楚啦對不對但是在非洲這一塊好像到目前為止都沒有嘛因為我們現在只有一個對我知道他就是一個高增長的一個潛力大國嘛那如果依照巴黎協定他並沒有規定一定要國與國之間這樣的一個處理嘛所以你要不要鼓勵民間就先行然後政府做他們的後盾"},{"start":844.162,"end":873.124,"text":"是 因為這個史瓦帝尼其實我也跟他們環境部長有碰過面然後也討論過這個議題不過他們的目前的基礎建設還沒有到達那樣的水準所以我們優先跟例如說巴拉圭未來的就是例如說貝里斯 帛琉或是瓜地馬拉我們會同步的展開這樣的這個工作那我也期待喔 非洲的友邦我們雖然只剩下一個但是那個我們還是可以願意來未來可以跟他們合作那我也不排除其他非邦交的國家只要"},{"start":873.724,"end":896.787,"text":"跟台灣友好的我們都可以來做對因為不到四年的時間你未來五年十年二十年像這種國際的探險基本上如果沒有實行卡位到時候就成為部長剛剛所講的非邦交的國家要如何跟我們可以來做這樣的一個合作到時候要不要賣給我們都是一個蠻大的問題嘛所以這個你如果不鼓勵民間先行"},{"start":897.888,"end":919.414,"text":"還是說政府要在某個環節上做什麼樣的一個努力當然不是只有部長一起之力啦,當然外交部,當然經濟部嘛這個如果不先卡,真的到時候換我們會被卡因為我們是出國導向的國家那到時候這可能會引起很大的成本的提高還有很多競爭力的這樣一個下降"},{"start":920.694,"end":940.921,"text":"所以我知道部長在先前到巴拉圭的時候其實我看起來蠻高興的不過好像只有侷限這個地方很多地方如果我們只是去的只有簽MOU還沒有實施的這樣可以未來去做實際上的承諾交易還是甚至我們沒有跟他們有一定程度的一些誘因合作上的一個默契"},{"start":942.398,"end":950.303,"text":"我要說到時候沒買賣是很剛好然後你又被中國的一帶一路到時候又卡在前面"},{"start":952.152,"end":977.529,"text":"這個真的對台灣的整體是經濟上整個這個除了導向的競爭力會接受到蠻大的挑戰因為我們目前我們是用合法合規的概念例如說像巴拉圭他們自己在聯合國裡面也有合法合規的這個ITMO的一個機制所以我們是優先跟這種制度建立比較完善的國家在談那未來當然是需要卡位佈局我們會積極來做"},{"start":978.59,"end":985.48,"text":"我是建議部長是不是可以立即來做一些討論檢討差不多在審預算的時候也可以給我們一些具體的一個作為跟方向我們大家再來做討論好不好好 謝謝主席好 謝謝劉建國委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:46:19.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:46:19.234000+08:00","text":"謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:46:19.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:46:20.155000+08:00","text":"有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-22T13:46:20.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:46:23.436000+08:00","text":"有請彭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:46:23.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:46:29.978000+08:00","text":"部長，天氣開始轉熱了，民眾開始開冷氣，冷氣一開，碳排空污就會直直升，你對此有什麼看法？","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:46:31.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:46:35.199000+08:00","text":"我們最近要提議多種樹，要把溫度降下來。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:46:35.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:46:39.041000+08:00","text":"像你穿西裝又打領帶，這樣會不會更熱？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:46:39.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:46:43.122000+08:00","text":"我是尊重貴院，如果以後可以讓我穿短袖來，我也可以。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:46:44.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:46:50.181000+08:00","text":"你要穿短袖穿短褲來應該也沒有人會反對，那樣更環保，是真正的環境部部長。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:46:51.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:47:07.968000+08:00","text":"我會這麼請教你，是因為115年度的預算已經付委了，很不容易付委了已經過了第一季之後，召委用最快的速度安排審查環境部的預算並請部長來做報告。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:47:08.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:48:05.618000+08:00","text":"今年環境部的預算是有所增加，但是我翻開環境部115年度的預算，看到「綜合企劃及管制考核」減了110萬元，「空氣品質保護及噪音管制」減少了986萬元，「水質保護」又少了將近快2.7億元，「一般行政」則增加了一千八百多萬元，然後環境部今年要在「一般行政」項下增加辦理中央空調節能工程等經費，也就是相關的預算減少了，然後「水質保護」又減了2.7億元，環境部的中央空調水塔主機要更換，預算編了將近一千二百多萬元，基本上是要換一些節能的空調，我想也是應該，不過部長，你覺得你們預算這樣的調整在115年度算是合理嗎？","quality":0.856},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:48:07.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:48:19.080000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個最主要是因為財劃法通過後，我們把一些原來補助給地方的工作移到一般性的補助款去了，所以在我們本部的總預算部分就有所刪減。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:48:19.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:48:23.526000+08:00","text":"所以「水質保護」減了2.7億元是都移給地方政府去處理了？","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:48:24.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:48:32.837000+08:00","text":"對，大概有四億多，我們在水質保護這一項只編列了八千多萬元，有四億多都移到一般性的補助款去了。","quality":0.69},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:48:33.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:48:35.240000+08:00","text":"四億多都移給地方政府去了？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:48:35.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:48:36.882000+08:00","text":"對，要不要讓水保司來說明？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"王司長嶽斌","start":"2026-04-22T13:48:37.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:49:11.932000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，有關水質保護基本上有兩個計畫，一個是「因應氣候變遷縣市管河川及排水整體改善計畫」，另外一個是「永續水質推動計畫」，現在大家看到的減列部分，基本上就是永續水質改善計畫移到一般性的補助款，至於剛才提到的因應氣候變遷縣市管河川這個部分，我們今年新增了5億元，其中4.1億元是一般性的補助款。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:49:12.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:49:15.094000+08:00","text":"所以那也是增加了，增加的5億元裡面有4.1億元是給地方政府的，是不是這樣？是。","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:49:15.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:49:17.355000+08:00","text":"不是我們這邊減列2.7億元然後給地方政府，不是這樣嘛？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"王司長嶽斌","start":"2026-04-22T13:49:25.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:49:41.292000+08:00","text":"不是，這是另外一支計畫，永續水質推動計畫，去年是編在「水質保護」項下，今年把它移到一般性補助款，所以我們的一般性補助款整體加起來有接近9.8億元。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:49:41.292000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T13:49:48.228000+08:00","text":"都給地方政府？是，是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:49:48.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:49:58.414000+08:00","text":"所以你們自己部裡跟你這個單位兩個主計畫，基本上對照114年度是減了多少？","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"王司長嶽斌","start":"2026-04-22T13:50:00.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:50:00.835000+08:00","text":"整體是增加。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:50:01.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:50:02.876000+08:00","text":"整體來講是增加？是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:50:03.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:50:08.019000+08:00","text":"給完地方政府之後，對照114年度，到底是增加還是減少？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"王司長嶽斌","start":"2026-04-22T13:50:08.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:50:11.021000+08:00","text":"給了地方政府之後，基本上我們是增加1.7億元。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:50:15.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:50:16.747000+08:00","text":"還在增加1.7億？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王司長嶽斌","start":"2026-04-22T13:50:16.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:50:22.950000+08:00","text":"是，就是「水質保護」項下水污染防治增加1.7億元，另外飲用水管理也增加200萬元。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:50:23.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:50:28.593000+08:00","text":"沒關係，等審查預算的時候我再來請教司長，到時候再說明清楚一點。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"王司長嶽斌","start":"2026-04-22T13:50:28.593000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T13:50:29.793000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:50:29.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:50:53.399000+08:00","text":"另外，我還看到一個「強化全國環境檢測智慧轉型計畫」，該計畫的期程是從111年到116年，分6年辦理，本年度原本是續編第5年的經費七千多萬元，但本科目已經暫緩編列，而上年度所列的五千八百多萬元又如數減列，這是什麼狀況？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:50:53.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:50:54.219000+08:00","text":"能不能簡單說明一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃司長偉鳴","start":"2026-04-22T13:50:55.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:51:21.492000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個最主要是上下年度預算編列的一個說明，所謂如數減列的部分，是去年度114年編列預算用來購買聲音照相的設備，屬於大氣環境司的部分，在整體報院計畫裡面，在114年已經執行完畢，所以我們今年度115年就沒有再編列，文字說明就是這樣。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"黃司長偉鳴","start":"2026-04-22T13:51:21.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:51:31.500000+08:00","text":"至於第5年以後的七千一百多萬元這個部分，是由我們國家環境研究院在執行，所以那個項目是編列在國家環境研究院。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:51:31.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:51:35.243000+08:00","text":"照你的答復，等於這6年計畫基本上4年就已經完成了？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"黃司長偉鳴","start":"2026-04-22T13:51:36.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:51:45.590000+08:00","text":"大氣司的部分，剩下還有兩年計畫是國家環境研究院購買相關檢測儀器的部分，那個還是有持續編列，以上說明。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:51:47.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:51:52.275000+08:00","text":"所以上年度所列五千八百多萬元如數減列算是……","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:51:53.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:51:54.857000+08:00","text":"提到我們的國環院。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃司長偉鳴","start":"2026-04-22T13:51:55.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:51:58.520000+08:00","text":"就是上年度有編，已執行完畢，今年度就沒有再編列這一筆費用。對。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:52:03.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:52:03.748000+08:00","text":"這樣我清楚了。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:52:05.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:52:07.570000+08:00","text":"110年度的偵測噪音儀器都已經買齊了嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:52:09.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:52:12.171000+08:00","text":"全國80套夠用嗎，就不用再添購了？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃司長偉鳴","start":"2026-04-22T13:52:12.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:52:12.611000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃司長偉鳴","start":"2026-04-22T13:52:13.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:52:40.821000+08:00","text":"根據我們的統計，目前全國大概有427套，當然誠如委員講的，噪音部分應該是能夠儘量再爭取聲音照相，所以我們其實有再報行政院一個「智慧宜適家園管理計畫」，期程從115年到118年，我們希望再爭取300套，目前這個計畫雖然有通過，但經費核定的情況還不夠，所以我們還要再持續爭取。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:52:41.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:52:46.703000+08:00","text":"所以原本115年度的預算沒有把要增加這個的需求編入在內？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃司長偉鳴","start":"2026-04-22T13:52:47.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:53:00.047000+08:00","text":"目前行政院只有核定我們1,300萬元的委辦費而已，我們希望爭取的設備費沒有核定，所以我們可能後續還要再去爭取，因為整個報院計畫是有通過。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:53:00.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:53:00.968000+08:00","text":"報院計畫已經通過了？對。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:53:03.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:53:30.497000+08:00","text":"我想是這樣，112年我在司法及法制委員會當召委時希望讓環保署升格為環境部，為的就是希望環境部成為一個有布局高度、有布局預算的部會，但是我怎麼看到你們的預算是那邊減、這邊減，然後又要給地方政府，你剛剛這樣的講法我是能夠理解，不過到進入實質審查預算時，我會再跟各位就教，屆時應該會比較清楚。","quality":0.628},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:53:31.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:53:35.803000+08:00","text":"我想該用則用、該省則省，不該用的就不能再從這邊去做無謂的浪費。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:53:35.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:54:08.126000+08:00","text":"接下來一個問題同樣是預算問題，就是今年5月環境部就要正式開始收取碳費，收取的碳費會進入溫室氣體管理基金中，然後再由基金來補助：減碳技術及地方溫室氣體減量；氣候變遷調適協調、研擬及推動事項；執行公正轉型相關工作；最後是辦理淨零轉型貸款利息補貼、信用保證或其他有關事項，對不對？對。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:54:11.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:54:17.241000+08:00","text":"環境部預估今年在碳費這個項目會有多少經費入帳？","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:54:17.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:54:18.263000+08:00","text":"大概45億元，我們編列大概40億元的經費。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:54:22.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:54:30.948000+08:00","text":"入45億元，然後要支出40億元左右，將近九成，這個也算是一筆大預算。是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:54:32.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:54:44.671000+08:00","text":"我想各界也在擔憂政府收了這些碳費之後會不會又重複補助排碳產業，變成碳排的企業左手交碳費右手又拿你們的減碳補助費用，使得整個減碳政策大打折扣，會不會這樣？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:54:44.671000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T13:54:49.973000+08:00","text":"不會，不會，請我們署長來說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡署長玲儀","start":"2026-04-22T13:54:49.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:55:13.787000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，有關碳費的收入，依照預算法，我們都是經過基金管理會來討論，去年基金管理會對於碳費的支用也有原則上的規劃跟討論，當然在今年隨著5月底開始確定收到多少碳費之後，會再有更詳細的補助辦法到基金管理會做說明。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:55:15.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:55:16.129000+08:00","text":"所以補助辦法到現在還沒有出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡署長玲儀","start":"2026-04-22T13:55:18.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:55:29.789000+08:00","text":"我們今年大部分的時間是在處理碳費的收入，因為有高碳洩漏風險還有自主減量計畫的審查，現在這個部分已經告一段落。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:55:31.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:55:34.310000+08:00","text":"我知道這個已經告一段落，不過碳費的補助辦法還是沒有出來嘛，對不對？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"蔡署長玲儀","start":"2026-04-22T13:55:34.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:55:48.829000+08:00","text":"關於補助辦法，因為其中有一項是對於利息的補貼還有信保的部分，這會涉及到要修改我們的基金收支保管運用辦法，我們正在修這個辦法。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:55:50.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:56:00.829000+08:00","text":"你還是沒有答復我的問題，就是會不會這邊繳碳費，另一邊又接受排碳大戶的相關補助。","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:56:01.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:56:18.117000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們主要補助的是一些真的可以實質上減碳的技術，如果地方政府或是整個企業有更好的減碳技術，我們的確是有一些補助措施，我們編列了大概17億元來做這個事情。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:56:19.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:56:25.904000+08:00","text":"所以你們的補助辦法還沒有出來，但大致上要匡起來多少去補助地方政府的17億元已經有著落了？","quality":0.725},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:56:26.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:56:32.710000+08:00","text":"對，這個是包含了企業跟政府，就是有這樣的一個規模，有這樣的想法，但是整個細節還沒有定出來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:56:33.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:56:39.075000+08:00","text":"但是這大項的部分已經匡出來了，應該是這麼說，對不對？對。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:56:41.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:56:50.863000+08:00","text":"剛剛有委員也特別強調強化脆弱群體因應氣候變遷衝擊之能力，這個是規定在氣候變遷因應法第十七條，部長知道，對不對？對。","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:56:50.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:57:04.515000+08:00","text":"像我們雲林縣這種農業大縣，因應這種極端氣候，不管是勞工還是農民，基本上，坦白講是面對非常大的挑戰，如果依照這一條，你們這個碳費的預算規模大概是多少？","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:57:05.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:57:07.179000+08:00","text":"這個叫做調適，調適大概是2到3億元左右。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:57:07.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:57:07.239000+08:00","text":"不到10%？對。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:57:12.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:57:14.549000+08:00","text":"這樣合乎比例嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:57:16.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:57:17.450000+08:00","text":"2億到3億元就差不多5%左右。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:57:18.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:57:38.920000+08:00","text":"因為溫管基金還是以減碳為主，所以包含我們剛剛說的利息補貼，比如減碳技術的利息補貼或是投資溫室氣體減碳技術，或是說有一些其他的，我們會用一個競爭型的方式，如果地方政府或是企業有更好的減碳目標，我們希望可以幫臺灣用更好的技術趕快先減到碳。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:57:40.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:57:46.472000+08:00","text":"我還是建議部長，趕快把整個的補助辦法訂出來，讓我們來做參考，好不好？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:57:46.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:57:50.834000+08:00","text":"然後按照那個比例，到時候我們在預算審查過程裡面可以討論。好。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:57:52.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:57:57.736000+08:00","text":"最後一個問題是對於賴總統要出訪非洲友邦國家受阻一事，請問部長有什麼看法？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:57:58.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:58:01.378000+08:00","text":"我之所以要問部長這個問題，是因為有後續的相關問題。","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:58:03.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:58:09.242000+08:00","text":"我覺得這是非常沒有禮貌，打壓臺灣的作法。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:58:10.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:58:13.565000+08:00","text":"只有他們很沒有禮貌跟打壓臺灣？對。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:58:13.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:58:14.606000+08:00","text":"他們打壓臺灣就是沒有禮貌？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:58:15.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:58:15.628000+08:00","text":"這個是……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:58:15.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:58:16.789000+08:00","text":"是惡劣嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:58:16.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:58:17.489000+08:00","text":"非常惡質嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:58:17.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:58:19.010000+08:00","text":"部長你就大膽講出來嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:58:20.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:58:21.712000+08:00","text":"是，而且這個違反國際的一個常理。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:58:21.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:58:35.600000+08:00","text":"我們都清楚臺灣在整個國際外交的處境是什麼樣的情況，所以過去臺灣很多都是透過民間先行的力量，去讓整個外交得以增進國跟國之間的交流。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:58:36.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:58:42.221000+08:00","text":"賴總統只是要過境，整個非洲的航線就受阻。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:58:44.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:58:55.049000+08:00","text":"我是想問部長，有沒有思考到非洲是一個針對國際碳權非常重要、高增長的潛力大國，部長知道嗎？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:58:55.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:58:57.250000+08:00","text":"是非洲或是中南美洲也都是。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:58:58.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:59:20.182000+08:00","text":"臺灣目前在談碳權，現在的導向是在談國內的碳權還包含國內的碳費，但是2030年之後，要進入到不一樣的減碳階段，屆時我們絕對沒辦法忽視國際碳權的問題，當然距今還有4年的時間，可是今天總統只是要從一個非洲經過就會出問題，那2030年之後，誰要來做這樣的一個承諾呢？","quality":0.82},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:59:20.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:59:21.663000+08:00","text":"臺灣一定能跟國外買到ITMO國家級碳權嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:59:30.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:59:46.642000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實在去年，我們有跟巴拉圭簽了一個MOU，然後我也到了巴拉圭去討論，目前我們後續正在進行實際上的ITMO的磋商、協商，所以我們的確在往那條路走。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:59:48.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:59:54.692000+08:00","text":"部長有先到巴拉圭，這個我清楚，但是在非洲這一塊，好像到目前為止都沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T13:59:55.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T13:59:57.074000+08:00","text":"對，因為我們現在就只有一個邦交國。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T13:59:57.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T14:00:08.622000+08:00","text":"我知道，因為他就是一個高增長的潛力大國，如果依照巴黎協定，它並沒有規定國與國之間一定要這樣處理，所以你要不要鼓勵民間先行，然後政府做他們的後盾？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T14:00:12.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T14:00:27.996000+08:00","text":"其實我也跟史瓦帝尼的環境部部長碰過面，然後也討論過這個議題，不過他們目前的基礎建設還沒有到達那樣的水準，所以我們優先跟巴拉圭，未來就是比如貝里斯、帛琉或是瓜地馬拉，我們會同步展開這樣的工作。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T14:00:28.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T14:00:40.326000+08:00","text":"我也期待，雖然我們只剩下一個非洲友邦，但是我們還是願意未來可以跟他們合作，我也不排除其他非邦交的國家，只要跟臺灣友好的，我們都可以來做。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T14:00:41.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T14:00:59.285000+08:00","text":"因為不到4年的時間，未來5年、10年、20年，像這種國際的碳權，基本上如果沒有事先卡位，部長剛剛所講的非邦交國家要如何跟我們做這樣的一個合作，到時候要不要賣給我們，這些都是滿大的問題。是。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T14:01:00.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T14:01:24.394000+08:00","text":"所以這個你如果不鼓勵民間先行，還是政府要在某個環節上做什麼樣的努力，當然這不是只靠部長一己之力，還包含外交部、經濟部，這個如果不先卡位，到時候真的換我們會被卡，因為我們是出口導向的國家，這可能會引起很大的成本提高以及競爭力下降。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T14:01:25.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T14:01:49.580000+08:00","text":"所以在知道部長先前到巴拉圭之後，我其實看了還滿高興的，不過好像只有侷限這個地方，很多地方如果我們去了只有簽MOU，沒有實質的、未來可以實際上做承諾交易，或甚至沒有跟他們有一定程度的一些誘因、合作上的默契，我跟你說，到時候不賣給我們是很剛好的啦！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T14:01:51.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T14:02:06.959000+08:00","text":"然後到時候又被中國的一帶一路卡在前面，這個對臺灣的整體經濟、出口導向的競爭力，真的會是滿大的挑戰。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T14:02:06.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T14:02:22.509000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，因為我們目前是用合法合規的概念，譬如像巴拉圭他們自己在聯合國裡面也有合法合規的ITMO機制，所以我們是優先跟這種制度建立比較完善的國家在談，未來當然是需要卡位布局，我們會積極來做。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T14:02:23.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T14:02:29.919000+08:00","text":"我建議部長可以立即來做一些討論、檢討，審查預算的時候，也可以給我們一些你的具體作為跟方向，我們大家再來做討論。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-04-22T14:02:29.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T14:02:30.059000+08:00","text":"好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-22T14:02:30.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T14:02:30.159000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-22T14:02:30.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-22T14:02:30.480000+08:00","text":"謝謝劉建國委員發言。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-22T14:02:30.980000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T14:02:35.837143+08:00","text":"鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-22T14:02:36.137143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T14:02:44.422857+08:00","text":"接著我們請何欣純委員發言，何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-22T14:02:44.722857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T14:02:53.008571+08:00","text":"接著我們請羅智強委員發言，羅智強委員、羅智強委員，羅智強委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-22T14:02:53.308571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-22T14:02:55.880000+08:00","text":"接著請楊曜委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}