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本日會議上午議程為邀請勞動部部長 衛生福利部就業服務法第46條80歲以上長者 聘請外籍看護免巴士量表上路對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施進行專題報告並備諮詢現在介紹在場委員有陳昭之委員"},{"start":1795.404,"end":1820.633,"text":"林衛群委員及我們內席官員勞動部洪森漢部長在上午11時之前在11時以後是陳明仁常務次長勞動力發展署房寧玉署長職業安全衛生署林玉堂署長"},{"start":1823.471,"end":1837.018,"text":"勞動基金運用局蘇玉清局長中和規劃師莊美娟司長好 在路上 勞動關係師王厚偉司長勞動保險師陳美女司長"},{"start":1843.668,"end":1850.171,"text":"勞動扶持退休師黃維琛師長勞動條件及就業平等師黃齊亞師長秘書處丁玉珍處長會計處林美信處長"},{"start":1862.724,"end":1888.43,"text":"衛生福利部 呂健德 政務次長剛好在外面受訪長期照顧師 祝建芳師長歡迎護理及健康照護師 陳清梅 副師長醫事師 劉益菁 副師長社會及家庭署 游怡君 組長好"},{"start":1892.563,"end":1915.94,"text":"中央健康保險署呂芝樺專門委員國民健康署謝沛君檢認跡證有關本次會議各項書面紀錄均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始詢答 作以下宣告"},{"start":1917.981,"end":1938.369,"text":"本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘 內席委員4加1分鐘OK 沒關係我們先請先請勞動部洪部長報告 報告時間5分鐘 洪部長請"},{"start":1951.829,"end":1977.323,"text":"主席那各位委員先進各位記者這個記者女士先生大家好那感謝貴委員會的邀請那由申翰來向委員們就大院排定就業服務法第46條80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴士量表上路對重症家庭的衝擊配套措施進行專案報告那敬請各位委員給予指教那首先關於就法第46條修正條文與影響報告如下"},{"start":1978.163,"end":1993.352,"text":"那大院於113年12月31日刪讀通過修正就業服務法第46條條文新增開放被看護者年齡滿80歲以上或70歲至79歲患有癌症二期以上者得免經醫療機構之專業評估 聘僱外籍看護工並經總統於114年"},{"start":1999.956,"end":2020.025,"text":"1月20日公布那依內政部與衛生福利部113年的數統計數據顯示我國80歲以上的人口約有91萬人扣除4.6萬人入住長照機構26.9萬人使用長照2.0那6.5萬人已聘僱外籍看護工那衛生能健康人口約53萬人"},{"start":2022.405,"end":2039.193,"text":"在新法上路後即符合聘僱資格而70到79歲罹患二期以上癌症也約有12.5萬人預估在新法實施後將增加約10萬名的家庭看護工的需求自新法通過以來陸續有重症失能的家庭反應"},{"start":2040.197,"end":2069.073,"text":"可能會遭遇到這個器重則輕的現象而終極重症家庭聘僱移工的權益所以舊福法是6條114年1月20號修正公佈後本部及研擬相關法規命令人力經費以及資訊系統和配套措施那過去6個月期間與衛福部專業醫學會以及利害關係團體等密集討論三項配套執法已經於7月底發布8月1日實施那未有拖延"},{"start":2070.134,"end":2099.654,"text":"新法上路後這些真正需要照顧的重症家庭會變得更不容易找到或留住看護工所以為了降低修法對重症家庭衝擊 勞動部及衛福部在行政程序上面推動六大配套措施來因應包括輕重分流重症優先擴大重症多元免貧資格重症家庭國內承接最優先還有協調移工來源國增加量能確保品質還有補足第一線執行人力及擴編預算支持看護家庭"},{"start":2100.394,"end":2125.525,"text":"不過即便這六大配套措施的實施我們也是能夠只能夠減輕一些影響可能還是沒有辦法完全避免這個終身家庭所受到的衝擊這個問題但勞動部會與衛福部盡力的就行政部門所能來協助終身家庭的照顧權益以上報告敬請各位委員指教並祝主席各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝謝謝黃部長報告"},{"start":2129.506,"end":2152.261,"text":"再過來我們請衛生福利部理事長報告理事長請主席各位委員女士先生大家早安大家好今天大院第11屆第三期未還委員會召開全體委員會議本部"},{"start":2153.447,"end":2181.586,"text":"呈邀列席報告深感榮幸知就就業服務法第46條80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免八十兩票上路對中正家庭的衝擊與配套措施來提出本部的專題報告敬請參與書面報告那麼以下向各位委員來摺要說明首先針對就服務法第46條修正條文此法於8月1號上路勞動部推估國內將至少增加10萬人申請聘僱外刊"},{"start":2183.287,"end":2201.518,"text":"協同本部共商配套 透過剛剛洪部長也一再重申我們透過輕重分流 重症優先以及聘僱外勘 空窗期使用長照服務等努力以希望來盡力降低修法對於重症家庭之衝擊"},{"start":2203.479,"end":2231.974,"text":"針對有醫療診斷或長照服務使用證明的9類重症案件我們來優先審查原則上以一天內完成本國照服員推介並且審查完畢為目標並且也提供國內長照資源來協助重症家庭度過等待外刊到任期間的照顧空窗期其次本部也積極引導聘僱外刊家庭使用多元長照服務"},{"start":2232.734,"end":2259.975,"text":"如果遇到等待外刊的空窗集也可以使用所有的长照服务为了提升聘雇外刊家庭使用长照服务的竞变性那么本部也责成外刊生成人员转介照管中心来进行相关评估符合长照需要等级二级以上者可以使用长照专业服务交通接送 辅具以及居家无障碍环境改善等等服务还有传席服务"},{"start":2260.851,"end":2274.93,"text":"另外民眾如果有外勘還未到任之前轉換僱主外勘失聯或返鄉等等照顧空窗期也適宏被看護者名下未聘有外勘者也可以申請包括"},{"start":2275.951,"end":2302.049,"text":"照顾服务的所有的长照服务以纾解外勘空窗期间的照顾压力再者自114年9月1号起放宽聘雇外勘家庭在原核定制照顾及专业服务额度下可以使用日间照顾家庭托雇服务促进个案参与一对多的社区照顾服务并且提升被照顾者社会的参与以及互动"},{"start":2303.308,"end":2319.235,"text":"那么我们也针对80岁以上未失能长者或未失能知失智症者我们鼓励我们的长者多使用各类型的据点包括社区照顾光环据点巷弄长照站或者失智社区服务据点以达到"},{"start":2320.738,"end":2340.937,"text":"預防以及延緩失能失智健康老化以及活躍老化的目的最後本部也積極督請各地方政府來扶植各類的社區據點以及各種長照機構的資源建置並且導入智慧科技照顧以減輕長照人員以及家庭主要照顧者的照顧負荷"},{"start":2341.758,"end":2364.696,"text":"提升服務品質並且增加服務的競變性並且也將持續配合勞動部來監測各類申請案件時的時效跟變動情形以上為本部針對本次專題報告所提出的簡要說明再次來感謝各位委員的指教以及監督那麼在此敬日謝辰並期各位委員繼續予以支持 謝謝"},{"start":2366.474,"end":2380.571,"text":"好謝謝理事長的報告那再次確認有關本次會議各項書面紀錄均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始詢答座以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘 內席委員4加1分鐘"},{"start":2384.435,"end":2399.709,"text":"10點30分截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請於上會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭智委員發言謝謝主席 有請部長洪部長 請洪部長"},{"start":2419.375,"end":2434.169,"text":"陳委員好 部長早 久違了請問去年年底 那我們就通過了這個立法一三讀通過就業服務法的修法 那放寬了80歲及癌症二期以上不要經過這個80量表的評估 可以聘僱外籍看護"},{"start":2435.91,"end":2457.534,"text":"當時勞動部說 外籍看護來源不足 恐會造成排擠還有重症家庭請不到人 長照體系崩壞請問部長 既然這個修法影響這麼大 你們也覺得至愛難行那為什麼庭審院不提復印呢 你們有提復印嗎在這個案子沒有提復印你沒有提復印這麼至愛難行 你沒有提復印"},{"start":2462.165,"end":2470.991,"text":"那可見你們心裡知道嘛就是說80兩百的確造成很多人的困擾而且整個民意是趨向如此嘛所以你們沒有提富裕是這樣嗎"},{"start":2471.894,"end":2495.215,"text":"那個跟陳委員說明第一個當時在修法通過以後我們就判斷那我們是願意來進行配套的準備用配套的準備來盡力的降低可能會造成的衝擊跟影響因為前後經過兩位部長大家都說這個非常至暗難行我想說至暗難行你們就來複譽複譽就是你們也常規做的"},{"start":2497.677,"end":2513.849,"text":"我們的確認為他會有一些衝擊那這些衝擊 勞動部願意來規劃配套來去降盡力的降低這些衝擊我想請教你7月6大罷免前一天你發了一篇文指責在野黨通過許多爭議的法案包括"},{"start":2514.77,"end":2534.675,"text":"救福法80歲免巴士量表的這個法案你說這是爭議法案你說這些法案有一套操作模式快速過水市的初委員會跳過韓院長主持的協商限制表決前逐條的發言表決前才拿出最高機密的版本我認為你的說法"},{"start":2535.655,"end":2564.67,"text":"很多不是事實我要一一來破解跟拆除好 部長您說委員會過水跳過協商我們來看一下這個舊法免巴士量表的修法過程總共開了一次公聽會三天的委員會的審查再加上召委召開的這個黨團協商立法院執行刑事法可沒有說協商一定要函院長主持這樣還不算充分討論嗎光是為了一條修法"},{"start":2565.683,"end":2583.193,"text":"就討論了三次的委員會你知道其他的再生醫療法還有人體生物資料庫條例三四十條都討論也不過三天而已委員我講得很清楚其實原本這個案子在立法院是有派韓院長主持的"},{"start":2584.033,"end":2597.698,"text":"朝野協商的但後來這個朝野協商就被跳過了那我們原本想要帶著一個大家其實我們覺得可能更能夠執行或對衝擊會更小的方案到朝野協商來跟委員來討論當時我們做了這個準備"},{"start":2601.139,"end":2615.089,"text":"結果這一場協商就被跳過後來就直接表決了我覺得這個程序的過程會讓我們覺得好像少了一些像少了一些其實可以找到更好的處理方案的機會我講的是這件事情"},{"start":2631.279,"end":2648.875,"text":"我現在是幹事長我都見證件事你也當過幹事長如果貴黨柯總召不簽名的話這個根本協商是破局的所以你說在野黨都推給在野黨限制表決前的逐條發言我只要告訴你這簽名啊簽名啊三黨都簽名啊"},{"start":2649.255,"end":2672.382,"text":"不是像你說的那個就這個案子本身就把46條修法本身我自己很清楚我們當時是帶著我們覺得更能夠執行或讓衝擊更小的方案想要到朝野協商裡面來表達跟委員好好坐下來談可是當時的這個朝野協商確實是被跳過了也就是失去了這個更能夠好好討論的機會這是我覺得遺憾的地方"},{"start":2672.762,"end":2681.384,"text":"你說表決前才拿出最高機密版本你也當過幹部難道柯總召沒有教你嗎立法院的議事運作看一下柯總召怎麼講的請暫停 聲音時間請暫停"},{"start":2708.361,"end":2720.674,"text":"主委員會絕對不是綜藝版本最後版本是什麼最後版本是在表情那一剎那各黨提出版本才是最後版本嘛那時才是最後啊主委員會絕對不是綜藝版本"},{"start":2724.403,"end":2745.432,"text":"好那我就講部長你聽到了柯總召說表決前那一剎那拿出來的還是最後版本這個其實每個黨他都有所謂的最高機密版本大家都有只是說最後的那個再修正動議的版本其實跟原來不會差很大只是一些微調所以我要說部長"},{"start":2746.232,"end":2764.35,"text":"可惜啦 部長可惜你726的那個催票文沒什麼效果啦所以我勸你 身為部長少講政治 多談政策啦否則這個禮拜六大罷免可能又要再大失敗喔讓我說明一下我作為一個行政首長"},{"start":2765.848,"end":2788.611,"text":"我當時想表達的事情是想要爭取能夠讓更多的行政機構可以好好的討論政策跟法案的機會我其實在表達的是這件事情所以當時沒有辦法在朝野協商裡面好好表達我覺得對於最後的結果讓我覺得這是比較可惜的地方我是作為一個行政首長希望能夠爭取"},{"start":2789.972,"end":2803.838,"text":"有這樣子好好討論政策的機會我的初衷是這個我們的主題是有媒體報導勞動部把這個這個免除這個巴西量把評估就新申請這個外籍看護人數列為最高機密所以讓人家質疑啊你當時一直喊說會造成搶工會造成長照體系的這個崩壞好像修法一通過天秀塌下來一樣"},{"start":2812.202,"end":2832.452,"text":"那現在是這樣嗎 請問到8月1號到現在為止要免憑巴士量表的申請外籍考問人數有多少你說有多少 天有塌下來嗎最新的數據到8月17號目前是 就是說因為修法而新取得資格而有來申請的大概是1450左右"},{"start":2838.675,"end":2859.835,"text":"那但是我們的確看到在第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍那這意思是說到底接下來的趨勢會怎麼樣走坦白說還需要一段時間觀察我們當然希望沒什麼衝擊但是人民不能接受的是你不要用恐嚇的方式來做你來回應你不想做的事"},{"start":2859.855,"end":2884.816,"text":"委員我並沒有用恐嚇方式我們做的事情是為可能會的衝擊做因應的準備委員我們不是恐嚇我們我們這6個月很努力在做的事情是為可能會發生的衝擊去做足我們的衝擊準備的因應的工作這是我們做我們不是只是恐嚇我們並沒有恐嚇主席我我他佔用我太多時間了我那個"},{"start":2887.13,"end":2910.604,"text":"我前幾天看到新聞部長有提到說針對外界關注開放印度移工來補充看護移工的事情勞動部說因為印度是新的移工來源國那目前我方跟印度政府在今年初的協商是希望尤其從製造業跟傳統產業開放至少1000名進來那看到這裡我就有疑問勞動部預期要補充很多外籍看護人員"},{"start":2911.324,"end":2932.699,"text":"為什麼年初跟印度政府談判的時候沒有列入考量呢沒有列入這個部分為什麼你不列入這個外籍看護呢跟委員說明確實當時在討論印度移工的時候社會普遍現在比較能夠接比較能夠有共識接受的是印度移工先進到製造業跟這些傳產裡面那為什麼這個是法通過了你不做你說有困難然後談論談判的時候又不把它納入"},{"start":2939.591,"end":2958.854,"text":"不是談判委員你誤會了當時在印度移工引進的時候包括來立法院報告當時很清楚就是跟立法院說明會印度移工如果進來的話會先以製造業或這些傳產作為優先的這個引進的場域當時就是跟立法院說的很清楚的事情"},{"start":2959.617,"end":2986.157,"text":"反正部長去年就三讀通過了如果你真的想像你們擔心的衝擊那你應該想辦法增加來源啊不只是印度還有其他的來源國不是去刻意營造一個在立法之後你去營造整個社會一種強外籍這個抗汙增加來源國的量能增加來源國供給引進的量能這是我們六大配套措施裡面非常重要的一部分"},{"start":2986.877,"end":3013.172,"text":"你在學育健保養 我就給你這麼多移工 好 你們自己去搶然後創造這個社會這種氛圍 害怕的氛圍委員 我要跟你說我們花在這六個月時間花了很多的力氣跟四個移工來源國去協商希望他們增加引進的數量我們在這四個月不斷的跟四個來源國協商這件事情就是希望增加引進的這供給量這是我們配套措施裡面講得很清楚的部分"},{"start":3013.735,"end":3034.919,"text":"我希望你不要將對長者的照護當作一個政治這個操作或攻擊我完全沒有把它當作政治操作的工具我們是很努力的在針對衝擊來進行配套的準備這樣講對我們的同仁是不公平的我們的同仁在這六個月的時間裡面多麼努力在這件事情上包括增加引進的量"},{"start":3035.379,"end":3057.405,"text":"引進一千名勞工不是今年初談的是去年談的去年何沛山部長就開始談了開放巴士輛票的修法已經討論了一整年了你們有相當充分的時間去做準備所以你們年底通過就應該跟印度政府協商啊你完全沒有把這個看護工納在裡面啊我們通過以後就馬上跟來源國協商增加供給量"},{"start":3061.467,"end":3072.816,"text":"去年底12月31號三讀通過以後我們就馬上在1月的時候就跟來源國開始在接洽希望能夠增加引進的供給的量這是我們在做的事情"},{"start":3073.824,"end":3096.753,"text":"你們現在提出的六套配套措施老實說我必須給予肯定啦這些做法當然就是跟時間會改變但是該肯定我給你肯定但是我希望未來各行政部門首長都一樣不要存著僥倖的心態不要存著說國會要改組我可以翻案的心態就好好面對立法院三讀通過的這個法條好好去面對它 準備它"},{"start":3097.933,"end":3113.499,"text":"三讀通過後在12月底通過後我們馬上就開始準備從1月不管是在配套不管是輕重的這個分流也包括是供給量我們就開始準備但是是12月底才三讀通過啊"},{"start":3119.485,"end":3146.85,"text":"我們就一直在醞釀那個法廠的過程當中你們就當作說就通過以後也不做你到我辦公室來也是告訴我說這個至愛難行委員我到你的辦公室是告訴你我們會進行哪些配套當時到你辦公室提供給你的文件我都還留著我就是告訴我再告訴你我們做輕重分流包括來源國的增量這都是我們的配套重要的配套之一我到你辦公室的時候都很清楚的告訴委員"},{"start":3147.21,"end":3163.246,"text":"法案是爭議性的法案好嗎就面對他處理他好好對待他好謝謝部長好謝謝陳肇事委員的發言也謝謝部長的答詢也祝肇事委員這個喉嚨可以早日康復好下一位我們請林慧琼委員發言林委員請"},{"start":3176.639,"end":3192.422,"text":"主席麻煩我們的洪部長有請洪部長部長早 去年底我們就通過了那個就業服務法第46條修法"},{"start":3192.95,"end":3214.957,"text":"那恐怕就將打亂包括重度需求者跟失智症者的照顧規劃那新法大概開放80歲以上或70歲以上罹患癌症第二期的長輩不用經過專業評估就可以直接聘僱我們的外籍看護這樣一來增加了53萬有聘僱資格者 聘僱移工資格者"},{"start":3215.441,"end":3236.349,"text":"那預估也是將近有10萬的人要提出申請特別是這些申請人多數都是比較好照顧的長輩那將把真正需求的重症者會排擠到後邊所以本席非常擔心未來將是移工更難請薪資飆高有錢也找不到人我想這不是只有我們的擔心也不是說那真的是"},{"start":3239.183,"end":3267.352,"text":"剛剛趙志偉講的說 政府在恐嚇 事實上民間團體也提出來所以7月28日那社福總盟跟很多的相關的 因為總盟大概六十幾個團體那他們跟本席共同召開記者會希望落實呢 在呼籲落實我們的重症優先會中臺灣的失智症協會還表示說失智症患者家庭從來都沒有被移工選"},{"start":3268.342,"end":3282.005,"text":"而是沒有挑選移工的條件那他們根本是沒有選擇任何有選擇權而且他們是被挑選的所以我們很擔心的是未來重症家庭將更難請到移工或者是因為"},{"start":3282.611,"end":3301.09,"text":"代價昂貴而請不起義工義工本來就是第一個國跟國的競爭我們本來就很難競爭得過日韓兩個國家還有產業跟產業之間的競爭今天看護工要去競爭其他跟其他產業競爭本來就一定困難更何況現在還有所謂的"},{"start":3302.165,"end":3317.143,"text":"避重就輕也就是重症的真的事實上會很難找到人所以想問勞動部 勞動部提出的六大配套當中提出來說重症者最快一天內能夠完成國內推薦七天可以獲得招募的許可函"},{"start":3317.731,"end":3341.862,"text":"如此能夠節省13到21天便可進入國外選工的程序可是人力仲介公司早在半年前就已經開始宣傳我們的聘僱新制同時對僱主跟移工來伸手招攬所以重症者家庭勢必是國外便會是可能招募不到人所以我們不知道勞動部對於幫重症節省的這個21天有效嗎"},{"start":3343.69,"end":3366.611,"text":"跟委員說明的確這個修法不管是在修法的期間或修法通過我們其實最擔心的其實就是對重症家庭影響那的確在這尤其是近期就是這個法生效上路之後我們陸陸續續也接到一些澄清就是說這些重症的家庭他要聘僱移工的時候或他已經聘僱的移工"},{"start":3367.572,"end":3386.555,"text":"那在照顧的狀態上面會做出改變或對於是否要留下來有移工開始會有一些不一樣的想法那這樣子的陳情的案件我們也陸陸續續聽到不少那包括網路上面其實大概有些在社群媒體上面也是可以看到這樣的訊息那這都其實這真的都不是我們樂見的事情"},{"start":3387.376,"end":3403.445,"text":"所以剛剛在講到說我們也是思考到重症家庭的權益所以我們在這一次的配套裡面我特別希望讓重症家庭包括他的行政的審查都能夠比較優先包括可能像一般來講過去一般其實在求財階段你可能要求財要七天"},{"start":3404.586,"end":3432.012,"text":"那接下來在這個如果是重症拿到重症的資格的話他在求財可能一天我們都盡量的去縮短這個他們可能相對應的程序或者是我們在承辦案件的時候讓重症家庭可以優先就是希望盡量再減少一些重症家庭在這裡面會遇到的行政上面的可能一些阻礙或者是一些行政上面的時間上面的成本這是我們希望優先來幫助重症家庭的部分"},{"start":3432.692,"end":3459.973,"text":"這個短期有效一個月後可能就很難達到我們的重症優先的效果那勞動部怎麼看這件事為什麼我們這樣講就像現在是因為不是這麼多我們的有80歲以上的老人家庭知道我覺得公民團體在推估初期真的申請的人不會這麼多可是後端越來越多人知道的時候這個效果可能會看半年後"},{"start":3460.515,"end":3470.557,"text":"才會看到那個衝擊量進來所以預估10萬所以現在有很多人講說不會啊現在看起來一直在問勞動部說你們好像進來剛剛講的我們招資委員說"},{"start":3472.563,"end":3490.684,"text":"沒有多少人申請嘛 量很低可是我們擔心的是半年後其實因為現在在趨勢上面還沒有辦法看得很清楚就像我剛才跟委員包括跟媒體報告的的確現在看起來量好像沒有一下暴增很多可是我們的確已經看到第二週比第一週的申請的人數是兩倍"},{"start":3491.525,"end":3510.068,"text":"那未來第三週第四週會是什麼樣的趨勢這部分可能還要更多的數據比較才能觀察到這個趨勢但我們只能盡我們所能的協助重症的家庭就像我想我在剛才在報告上因為說我的確我們也自己心清楚可能還是很難完全就是"},{"start":3511.36,"end":3526.56,"text":"避免對重症家庭的影響這是我們只能盡我們作為一個行政部門的所能盡力的優先盡力的優先服務重症家庭這是我們所能做的事情但能做的事情我們就盡量做至少這是我們行政部門的責任"},{"start":3526.86,"end":3551.237,"text":"在過去多元免貧的方案的條件裡面有一項條件是使用長照六個月後就取得我們的移工聘僱的資格這項條件確實是有效拖延非重症者跟重症者搶人的時程那所以在訂這個政策的時候除了縮短重症僱主的求財招募申請時間另外一邊另一邊為什麼不延長非重症者"},{"start":3552.037,"end":3575.366,"text":"雇主的求財招募的時間 申請的時間把兩邊的距離再度的能夠再拉長一點其實現在對委員的問題是要把時間再縮短嗎也就是說我覺得要把兩邊 否則的話你現在在80歲大概7天的時間 雖然講重症的時間事實上是可以"},{"start":3575.748,"end":3601.83,"text":"可以短一點就申請得到我們是希望如果這兩邊時間可以拉長是不是就可以讓重症的事實上還是有優先的一個考量我們基本上現在是讓輕症的還是維持原本的因為這是原本的就是我們其實也沒有特別要去卡輕症的因為如果我們要特別把它程序拉長的話可能也會造成這邊輕症的申請者他們可能也會有抱怨所以我們基本上現在就是維持輕症的申請者他是"},{"start":3602.731,"end":3620.772,"text":"原本的 原本的但我們做的事情是讓重症優先就是而不是選 我們的確現在沒有不是去選擇說我把輕症的程序給拉長因為這個 部長這就是很難 2021年我們就曾經發生生產業類的那個移工搶人大戰"},{"start":3621.753,"end":3636.184,"text":"疫情限制了移工的入境導致我們的缺工頻傳然後部分看護工看準廠工價優渥的勞動條件以騷擾雇主或是代工方式來逼迫雇主藉由三方合一方式轉為廠工那讓"},{"start":3639.026,"end":3666.32,"text":"需照顾家庭的雇主急着跳脚对此劳动部那时候去修正了一个办法民定移工跨业的话转换的话要以同类别为优先也就是说看护家庭看护工如果14内没有雇主承接的话才可以转换到其他所以想问劳动部我们的聘雇新制上路的时候的一个问题早在今年初就已经传遍了整个移工社群"},{"start":3666.94,"end":3687.618,"text":"媒體甚至還報導說今年7月移工1955的專線被打到爆重症家庭拼顧移工遇難跳槽所以請問今年7月到現在1955諮詢專線的數量到底有沒有增加還有社福類的移工轉換僱主的諮詢電話有多少的比例"},{"start":3689.617,"end":3711.197,"text":"我想一直以來其實我們的1955的這個專線其實但來詢問移工相關的事項就是比較多那的確這幾個月來來詢問這個80歲以上免巴士量表的申請的程序等等的相關的問題的確也是增加不少不過詳細的數字我可能要跟我們部裡面的優單位去確認一下才知道到底多了多少"},{"start":3711.397,"end":3727.562,"text":"好那是不是會後再給我那不然也是再續問就是說新制上路至今我們的社福類移工的申請轉換雇主許可的申請案件量跟前幾個月比是不是有增加是就像你剛剛講的嗎"},{"start":3728.922,"end":3751.857,"text":"對就是我剛才說到就是說我剛才講這個大概1450左右的這個數字其實是等於是在修法後那因為修法而興取的資格有來申請的人包括80歲以上免巴氏量表的80就簡單80歲以上的長者跟70到79歲癌症二期這兩個加起來是這個數字那"},{"start":3754.638,"end":3772.676,"text":"這個數字確實我們看到了一些增加的趨勢但是後續真的還需要一點時間我們也不敢斷言是不是之後一定會必然增加其實從勞動部的角度我們也不希望這個數字增加因為我們在提醒器重則輕這件事情它其實是一個提醒它不是我們的政策目標"},{"start":3774.257,"end":3795.075,"text":"器重責輕並不是我們的政策目標或者我們政策目標是要增加大量的人來申請這不是我們政策目標可是勞動部做一個行政部門要為可能會有增加的人數尤其是如果真的增加很多的話我們必須做準備這是一個行政部門該有的責任所以我們也不能把它想得好像很樂觀或者是都沒問題"},{"start":3796.236,"end":3822.795,"text":"這樣可能也會出問題 所以我們必須把情境想可能比較嚴峻一點 為嚴峻的狀況做準備如果真的沒有人來這麼多的話 那我想我們我們做的準備也比較能夠因應大家的需求部長既然國內我們的缺工日漸嚴重 勞動部去提升 提升什麼因為因為本期獲知部分移工安置中心等待轉換僱主的移工 因為照顧技術不好在"},{"start":3823.175,"end":3842.341,"text":"入境半年內就跟僱主就跟他解約了可是在移工在解約之後比較不容易轉換所以近日大家有很多越南籍移工遇到這樣的問題所以有沒有考慮去提升他們的照顧技術活化在安置中心等待的時間內去做這件事情讓移工能夠順利轉化也可以解決那個缺工的問題"},{"start":3843.021,"end":3870.328,"text":"我想其實我們接下來包括我們近期其實也針對我們的轉換的中心會把它強化它的功能那就是希望讓移工的轉換能夠更順暢不要有很多可能合約到期以後他就必須被送回去被送回國家我們更希望他能夠被優先的承接那第二個該委員說關於我們這個學習的課程我們接下來也會來強化尤其包括語言的部分或者是照顧的技巧的部分我想這都是我們想強化的方向"},{"start":3872.006,"end":3881.042,"text":"再麻煩我們的衛福部的次長我想這項政策 按理說不應該是勞動部的事是不是衛福部在推動移工學習上有什麼貢獻"},{"start":3882.424,"end":3909.82,"text":"是 非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我包委員我們在這一個大院通過這一個46條以後本部跟勞動部一直維持非常非常密切的一個聯繫因為經過左院長的一個指示我們當時馬上就成立一個所謂雙次長的一個會議那洪森漢 洪部長還對我們非常非常有很多的一個指導那跟委員報告我們主要就幾個部分"},{"start":3910.6,"end":3931.762,"text":"就是大家最關心的一個就是對於重症的一個這個衝擊所以我們基本上是輕重分流而且重症可是我現在看你們開的事實上有的是線上課程可是線上課程跟實體課程還是有落差所以移工區上課如果要實體課程的話當然因為僱主在這段時間沒有人照顧需要常照服務資源所以請問一下"},{"start":3932.879,"end":3954.647,"text":"衛福部有什麼樣一個對應的作為是 報告委員其實因為最主要就是這個部分如果說移工他要來上課的話其實基本上還在經過這一個顧主他們的家庭的同意那我也必須要承認就是說一般來說顧主他通常還是會對於這個準價的部分可能會有一些比較他們自己本身的需要"},{"start":3955.407,"end":3984.635,"text":"那當然我們也會這邊還是來加強來宣導因為其實移工他來上其實對於整個照顧的品質基本上還是有幫助所以我們基本上這邊還是會跟這一個病故的家庭來多宣導最後我希望是不是可以考慮因為大概整個照顧歷程平均10年從衰落到離世這個時間點大概10年所以問衛福部說我覺得在長期照顧在整個照顧方式的選項裡面是不是應該把"},{"start":3985.347,"end":4007.164,"text":"移工的照顾跟住宿型机构整合进来不是只有你的衰弱到中度后边呢就是交由家庭来去做解决那你的看法如何我觉得这个确实我们我觉得这是一个不错的方向我也会来跟同仁来言领就是刚刚委员刚刚所说的这部分确实啦因为整个这一个"},{"start":4008.144,"end":4035.121,"text":"我們長照3.0也即將在明年上路那我想這個裡面對於怎麼樣把家庭康護工這個也視為我們未來的一個整個潛在人力我想這個所以進一步再問就是既然這次把80歲的巴士輛把廢除所以我們有沒有考慮就是因為2021年的話身心障礙者需求評估ICF曾經做過一次改革那老人照顧的需求評估為何不做改革"},{"start":4035.541,"end":4056.407,"text":"整個用你的長照需求做評估報告委員其實基本上就是說84兩表跟我們現在所謂CMS基本上還是我必須要說還是有點不太一樣84兩表其實基本上大概就是說你要不要聘僱外籍家庭那CMS可不可以不能用整個那個CMS來做評估嗎報告委員還是兩個還是不一樣我舉個我打個比方這個84兩表有點像就是資格考"},{"start":4057.387,"end":4079.62,"text":"博士班的資格考可是呢你的CMS有點像博士班口試這兩個還是不一樣一個是資格一個是民間團體已經開始有提出這樣子的一個想法所以你們評估看看然後再把評估報告給我因為時間關係非常感謝委員的一個指教謝謝好 謝謝林耀勛委員發言也謝謝相關部長的答詢下一位我們請陳靜雯委員發言"},{"start":4089.072,"end":4092.993,"text":"謝謝主席 還有謝謝官員 我們請洪部長有請洪部長陳委員早 部長早因為這是蠻多委員是關心這樣子的議題因為內閣據說8月25號會改組所以也想請教洪部長未來還有機會可以在這邊繼續質詢你嗎我想就是政務官的去留不是我自己決定的 是是長官決定的所以"},{"start":4119.742,"end":4143.585,"text":"我沒有辦法回答你這個問題這個是當時您上任的時候卓院長給了您三個任務那我剛剛當然聽了很多這個您跟陳肇之委員的質詢在這邊我也想問您剛好講您發這篇文章有它的正當性還有您在意的事情不過當然外界有認為您在726大罷免的前夕"},{"start":4144.045,"end":4172.135,"text":"似乎是行政不太中立並且逾越了勞動部長的本分因為當初卓院長找您來也是希望您做全民的部長那如果你覺得整個都沒毛病的話請問你後來說有補請假的原因是什麼呢因為在一般勞工的認定中補請假大部分是小朋友健康有點問題要趕快去學校接或者是自身的家庭問題等等這是很急迫的狀況"},{"start":4173.115,"end":4176.624,"text":"那因為發了一篇文章所以之後才補請假的原因是什麼"},{"start":4178.922,"end":4205.357,"text":"那個像我們當天沒有說補請假我想我還是要再重申一次其實當天我這個發文的表達在表達的事情就是因為當時大家都很關心這個免巴士量表的問題那我們在當初要表決前其實的那場超級協商其實我們是帶了我覺得我們覺得相對是可以減緩可能會對重症帶來衝擊的那個方案希望到"},{"start":4207.078,"end":4227.671,"text":"這個協商的現場來跟草野的委員來討論也許我們有一些更好的方法一樣可以滿足一些長者的需求但是對可能的衝擊可以減少的方法我們其實是帶著這樣子一個方案但這個距離當時三獨或是協商其實這個時間點是過滿久的啦我不曉得你身為一個行政中立的部長我不知道你認為這個時機點"},{"start":4229.352,"end":4255.404,"text":"合不合適為什麼十幾點我想講的原因是因為當時其實就是在這個修法要生效前有一段大概有兩個禮拜的時間因為陸陸續續在媒體上面有報導有一些長者他重症的長者他遇到這個看護工可能不想要待想要轉走轉出的報導那一段時間裡面在媒體上面在社群媒體上這樣子的聲音很多"},{"start":4256.204,"end":4270.833,"text":"所以當時我才向大家報告說其實當初在三讀前其實有當時有一個原本是韓院長要這個要來召集我們是帶著這樣子的方案準備到現場結果朝野協商跳過了"},{"start":4271.914,"end":4296.234,"text":"八四兩表的輿論很多所以你發了這篇文我們事後再來看看他輿論的流量是不是在你發文的時候多不過在這邊也稍微提醒你也稍微提醒你如果你8月23號以前還要發文的話可以利用下班時間這樣子爭議比較少再來這也是其他人有在意的你看一下現在你還在中常委的名單上面不會覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":4297.034,"end":4310.425,"text":"因為第二個任務他就是希望您建立一個友善健全的職場這是卓院長給您的任務向委員報告在我到勞動部工作以後基本上我從來就在沒有去開過中場會"},{"start":4312.347,"end":4333.653,"text":"就是針對跟黨執就跟黨執有關的執行就再也沒有 那我們看看我們看看別人這個蘇志芬之前在擔任續產會董做以後就立刻請辭中常委我不太懂如果你不以身作則來以身示範要怎麼樣帶領勞動部的全體員工做到行政中立"},{"start":4335.403,"end":4358.649,"text":"總之我是跟委員說明說在去年的應該是11月底我到勞動部以後我就沒有再去做任何跟黨職有關權力上面的行使包括會議我想我們都沒有去出席了沒關係因為一般人民對於請辭或者是長期請假的看法大家還是覺得有一個落差"},{"start":4360.911,"end":4388.937,"text":"但如果你想做這樣子的選擇那就做這樣子的選擇這個是全台灣非常多球迷很關心我們上次也做了很多討論今年5月我們就說您會來協助他們做團體協約的簽訂那我想問一下到現在已經8月了不知道進度如何呢因為後來您也很友善的發文給我說會去拜會職棒公會然後把一些妹妹嘎嘎都跟球員公會來做分享"},{"start":4391.433,"end":4413.589,"text":"跟委員報告之前新的理事長就任的時候我們都有去出席那也代表老東部有這個上次都講過了你們有去記者會我們也跟工會有提到就是說如果有需要開始談團體協商的時候可以跟我們聯繫我們有專家可以協助那有可能因為他們現在事務比較繁忙那我們會再主動再來跟他們溝通"},{"start":4414.409,"end":4427.474,"text":"好所以你近期內大概多久以內會主動跟他們接洽因為現在許多球員他們在意的是這個洪部長一定也很關心明年1月我們又有新的經典賽但是他們對於明年這個出場的賽事出場費這個談定的"},{"start":4432.356,"end":4445.641,"text":"價錢已經是非常非常久以前的行情了大概三四年前的行情那現在球員們他們也很在意勞資關係小組啊肖像權的保障啊等等的那我們會期待您也可以運用您的影響力"},{"start":4447.281,"end":4470.392,"text":"我們其實部裡面一直很鼓勵這個工會跟企業來簽訂團體協約那如果有機會的話我想我可以再請再發文一次甚至不是發文我覺得更主動的直接聯繫只要任何幫得上忙的地方我們都願意來盡量去促成工會跟企業來簽團體協約我們會盡我們所有可以做的努力"},{"start":4470.792,"end":4494.16,"text":"因為明年1月也是許多球迷關心的三四所以同步他們也關心這樣子的議題我們期待可以看到部長有一些協助的地方再來這個是上次也跟部長問過的勞動部開放橋外畢業生留台工作在旅宿業的申請人數上次我跟您質詢的時候僅有一人申請也想知道現在是幾人了"},{"start":4497.328,"end":4517.417,"text":"還是藝人 還是藝人好 上次我們也比較了勞動部跟交通部觀光署推出的一個觀光旅遊業以及旅遊業申請外國籍學生來中華民國實習的要點當時喔不到半年申請人數突破千人我現在跟您更新一下你當時藝人現在藝人人家現在是1500件申請"},{"start":4520.879,"end":4534.893,"text":"那另外我也有聽說勞動部跟交通部有想要再開放第二個產業這個您知道是哪一個產業嗎你講的第二個產業對 除了旅宿業以外第二個產業他們想再開放實習要點"},{"start":4543.345,"end":4564.535,"text":"我想這還在評估中所以你們其實也有開會嗎也不是 我們其實也有跟交通部在討論比方說大家針對實習的問題的一些如果有涉及勞動權益的部分我們跟交通部會有再交換意見我獲得的資訊是貨運業貨運業 你有知道這樣子的事嗎交通部有跟你討論嗎委員的資訊可能要再確認"},{"start":4572.338,"end":4599.236,"text":"沒有 還沒有但缺工的確是一個事實我們只是希望跟你討論是不是有更健全更完整配套的實習生來彌補這個缺工我們來比較一下這個左邊是您勞動部的移工留才久用方案開放對象這個你很熟了在台工作滿6年以上或是取得我國副學士以上學位的僑外生右邊是現在交通部可能有找你一起討論的實習要點來看"},{"start":4601.718,"end":4629.284,"text":"他們來台許可期間不能超過他自己就讀學程的二分之一就最多一半比如說他這個在當國的學程是四年他在台灣兩年申請一次違憲那現在做個兩三年交通不公他們就希望他可以繼續留在台灣擔任技術人力這個跟你們原本的移工留才久用方案似乎原則差距非常的大"},{"start":4630.188,"end":4654.895,"text":"跟委員說明因為實習的部分的確跟這個因為移工留才久用是針對技術人力的部分那技術人力是工作那實習的確跟工作的性質還是不太一樣的所以有點難直接拿來這樣類比但我們的確不裡面現在我們針對整體的跨國勞動力的政策我們都希望能夠擴大這個技術人力的"},{"start":4655.925,"end":4676.293,"text":"流用 因為現在產業上面其實對於技術人力是很欠缺的 就是剛剛委員說到說我們其實對產業的各種職缺的調查裡面很清楚看到大家對技術人力的缺乏所以我們現在一些政策的規劃也希望讓未來的跨國勞動力的部分能夠更"},{"start":4678.086,"end":4697.019,"text":"往技術能力的方向來走來去供應給我們的產業產業的發展的需求但我也是站在您的立場因為您是要關心本勞嘛短期內當然這些方案有可能可以舒緩缺口可是長期它也可能會壓低我們本勞的溢價能力讓這個"},{"start":4698.78,"end":4726.536,"text":"有一個惡性循環所以我們在跨國勞動力的政策的開放裡面其實我們也很多次表達我們有幾個最重要的原則第一個不希望影響本勞的就業機會甚至我們還希望是不是能夠有機會透過跨國勞動力的政策來拉高本土勞工的勞動條件甚至薪資我這邊這都是我們其實希望設定的政策的目標"},{"start":4727.296,"end":4741.512,"text":"我這邊提供您一些其他國家的做法看您下次是否跨部門的會議的時候可以拿出來講我們當然你講到實習跟他實際在這邊做事情不太一樣如果我們讓實習要變得有意義的"},{"start":4742.233,"end":4768.554,"text":"比如說日本之前他也想利用實習的研修生制度來彌補勞工的缺口但因為沒有保障最後他們有去做調整比如說透過合法的中階技術人力制度來要求通過一定的證照或者是要達到日檢日檢日文的檢定還有專門性的技術考試合格等等的才可以讓這些實習生繼續留下來當作技術人力"},{"start":4768.854,"end":4791.487,"text":"根本說明他們在講的實習生他們其實指的是那個工作實習我們現在講實習生比較是從學校出發的實習其實是有點不同但是我們的確這樣的想法還是可以把它加入的確我們其實現在在很多技術人力的政策上面我們的確是在參考也參考日本的政策所以剛剛在講到是說他們的研修生或者是現在的育成"},{"start":4793.502,"end":4818.92,"text":"預成就勞的做法其實都是我們現在在做政策規劃的時候我們其實有在參考的案例就國家的案例這個我們以後會再後續跟您追走剛剛大家已經聽到您回答從現在8月1號開始申請是1450人嗎就是免84量表加上70到79歲的癌症二期以上"},{"start":4819.58,"end":4848.447,"text":"等下會有非常多委員問所以我這邊不多做琢磨可是我會希望我們是不是今年年底就這個計劃運行了半年左右可以去提交一個政策實行的檢討報告因為可能到了年底或者是半年我們這邊所有的委員我也會想要知道你真正申請的件數是多少你輕症跟重症如何分流那你怎麼輕症重症的比例等等那是不是要做一個政策檢討"},{"start":4849.207,"end":4863.197,"text":"沒有問題 我們一定 這個是我們願意提供好 最後有一個小的問題因為最近我們收到行政院來提追加預算那勞動部每年都會固定編列一個是表揚全國模範勞工選拔然後會辦在勞動節5月1號 穩定在500萬的規模比如說111年526 536 531等等每一年大概就在這個範圍的上下"},{"start":4874.205,"end":4896.849,"text":"那這個預算我們去年就通過啦並且你今年5月1號也辦完活動雖然辦活動那天很尷尬超過5000位的勞工走上街頭抗議賴政府抗議紅部長可是這個活動就辦完了但是現在送進來的追加預算又有228萬裡面又寫到說你要去辦模範勞工的選拔跟表揚我想問是為什麼呢我圈起來在中間的下面"},{"start":4903.694,"end":4920.23,"text":"跟委員報告這裡面不是說特別是追加我們另外還有這個獎補助還有包括一些對我們勞工的每一個模範勞工的我們有一個獎勵金還有一個補助他到補助全國性工會去辦理五一表達會"},{"start":4921.411,"end":4942.778,"text":"等於說不是我們 光我們自己辦全國慶的公會他辦模範勞工表揚我們有適度的去補助因為是全國慶的公會你是說今年5月1號辦完了之後你還要再補助其他的表揚嗎對 就因為我們全台灣這個全國慶的公會有10個左右然後他們辦表揚大會的時候我們有助於補助一些金額"},{"start":4944.051,"end":4961.919,"text":"那之前好幾年我看了好幾年的預算為什麼沒有這樣子追加表這個每年都有這個補助每年都有好那我會再跟您要這個追加228萬的完整支出規劃用書面報告送過來好嗎謝謝好謝謝陳經理發言也謝謝洪部長的答詢現在我們請王育民發言"},{"start":4979.364,"end":4981.928,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請洪部長好 請洪部長王委員好"},{"start":4988.325,"end":5012.609,"text":"部長好部長你在7月25號11點44分上班時間發文那你把巴士量表的修法呢舉例說他是一個快速出委員會好像過水式的這樣的一個修法我就要請教你請問巴士量表當時在委員會的審查審查的時間多久為什麼在你認定他是一個過水式的修法"},{"start":5013.209,"end":5030.687,"text":"從什麼時候開始修法那個我想跟委員說明我其實做這個巴塞陽堡的舉例主要是在講的是其實當初其實有機會其實韓院長朝野協商我就問你他是不是一個快速出委員會的修法如果不是請你道歉當時我是召委"},{"start":5031.528,"end":5056.761,"text":"我的牌法並沒有快速的出委員會在委員會討論了兩次還辦了黨團的協商之後委員會也還辦了公聽會你所謂快速的出委員會是什麼意思如果不是的事情一個部長可以公然在你的臉書上面造謠說謊嗎如果這不是你要表達的目的你為什麼把巴士亮表的修法通通寫進去了我反對你這樣子誤導"},{"start":5059.022,"end":5075.011,"text":"背離事實巴士亮表的修法在座的委員都在當時有快速出委員會嗎是用表決出委員會嗎 都沒有嗎還有經過朝野協商所以這件事情錯了就是錯了我覺得承認錯誤就好這完全是背離事實"},{"start":5076.252,"end":5093.202,"text":"有快速出委員會嗎 你先告訴我跟我說明我當初其實是做了幾個法律案的舉例在我的文字裡面那你就不應該把巴士量表拿出來嗎我特別為什麼講巴士量表的原因是因為他跳過了韓院長要召集的朝野協商你沒有當過立法委員嗎"},{"start":5094.262,"end":5118.729,"text":"現在所有的法案沒有一定要經過韓院長主持的朝野協商委員會自己的協商也算其實當初韓院長是有排的我們是準備了法案原本要到朝野協商上面跟委員好好的來針對這個案子可能可以的做法來討論你這個都是事後的狡辯之詞這不是事後這是當時在就是發生的事情你當時你的臉書文我希望你自己再把它download下來好好看一遍"},{"start":5120.315,"end":5139.548,"text":"你把巴士亮表的修法說為是一個過水式的修法這個本行是絕對的抗議跟反對背離事實背離委員會好好的審查這一個法條的事實你應該要道歉你根本就是說謊背離事實而且當時你不是勞動部部長"},{"start":5141.118,"end":5167.306,"text":"我是勞動部部長 韓院長的協商我是勞動部部長我們委員會審查的時候你不是勞動部部長對 可是我在講的是韓院長的協商的時候那你為什麼要把那一段寫出來呢 完全背離事實嘛你當時又不是部長 是何佩珊在當部長你也沒有參與審查的過程 你還好意思把整個的結果寫出來掛在臉書上面結果現在就是被打臉 完全背離事實第二個我要講 當時這一個巴士量表修法就是要檢證便民"},{"start":5168.826,"end":5194.071,"text":"事實上在野黨的出發點非常簡單就是簡正變民因為有很多民眾有這樣的心聲就是如此而已但是勞動部你們放大了那個衝擊你說有10萬人一下子會湧進10萬人影響非常巨大那我就問你到目前為止你剛剛報告說到目前為止8月17號登記申請的1400人對不對"},{"start":5198.054,"end":5209.852,"text":"那你當時的巨大的衝擊報告在你的臉書所呈現的你試圖要告訴全國民眾說這是一個錯誤的修法這是一個錯誤的政策你當時的立場就是這樣嗎現在事後來看"},{"start":5212.576,"end":5231.122,"text":"現在已經上路了而且你們跟衛福部也有去討論重症優先的原則請問他真的衝擊有那麼大嗎有爆量嗎有所有的人都氣重就輕嗎我覺得作為一個政務官秉於專業跟事實這是你最好的解方但是你如果為了反對而反對"},{"start":5232.302,"end":5247.512,"text":"坦白講最後就是自打臉而已媒體下的標就是跌破眼鏡嘛你們當時啊宣稱的十萬結果第一個月應該是如果你當時宣稱是這樣應該第一個月大家都急著要來搶可能至少是幾萬吧結果沒有是一千多"},{"start":5249.355,"end":5275.327,"text":"跟委員說明我們現在在數據上面的確看到第二個星期是第一個星期的兩倍是多少的兩倍是第一個星期的兩倍對 數字是多少所以它的成長的趨勢是看得到的我知道嘛 那本數是多少啦不要再用那種兩倍的數字刻意好像還不想承認錯誤還要想要去放大說是兩倍的成長那個都沒有意義事實就是事實"},{"start":5276.207,"end":5303.866,"text":"我說過了80歲以上開放的這一個免巴士量表他的初心只有一個是要簡正便民他不在於是侯友宇的政策不在於是賴清德的政策而是民意之所向因為現在的程序就是很繁複僅此而已你當然可以有你的立場反對但不用去誇大數字刻意要來貶抑這個政策他本身利益良善的這個部分我就提醒到此為止接下來一個很重要的議題這個是媒體很關心的"},{"start":5308.348,"end":5323.637,"text":"當時這個大家在討論救安基金濫用的問題事實上這個之前有揭露過其中你們做那個影片的部分真的這個金額高得嚇人一支影片可以高達上千萬但是點讚數不到500"},{"start":5324.958,"end":5353.846,"text":"那這件事情呢現在再次被掀出來討論呢大家就看到說審計部他認為難以以宴和履約的結果連審計部都不敢背書那部長你說要檢討請問你的檢討你到目前為止懲處了哪些人哪些人當時是讓他這樣子可以輕易的過關的另外你的檢討要不要移送檢調之前討論霸凌案你是來處理這個霸凌案的"},{"start":5354.426,"end":5381.437,"text":"相關的人等還有當時這個涉案的都已經移送檢調他現在也被起訴那這一個案子涉及到是2800萬這當中如果有審計部都難以背書的覺得你這樣子的一個核銷是有問題的那請問你要不要移送檢調你說要檢討你要不要移送檢調比照之前的霸凌案的處理我跟委員說明第一個其實的確針對救安基金致用這個問題"},{"start":5383.839,"end":5399.473,"text":"檢調是已經有立案在調查有包括這個部分嗎就是2800萬就是這整個部分你們提供的有包括2800萬也不只是這部分都有也不只是就是整個救安基金之用的問題檢調現在在已經有立案調查所以他全面的包含這部分都會一併調查"},{"start":5400.154,"end":5427.686,"text":"那我們勞動部其實也是全力在配合這些調查這是第一個第二個就像你的投影片上面寫到其實這幾個東西我們都在改革比方說下面那個常態性的行政支出因回歸公務預算我們已經跟行政院爭取過去可能我們認為其實他應該是支用在公用公預算來支用的部分不應該用救援基金來支用的部分我們已經跟行政院來爭取所以這個部分在115年的預算裡面我們已經爭取到了一些"},{"start":5428.846,"end":5441.588,"text":"那這部分我們就再落實第二個是 媒宣的預算或者是媒體宣導的部分我們也檢討了開口合約的適用的範圍所以今年 我說去年底"},{"start":5442.979,"end":5458.37,"text":"沒宣在開口合約上面的標案我就把它給停下來檢討了都沒有了 零件了所以現在我們部裡面是沒有政策沒宣的開口契約的不會再拍這種影片然後用開口合約我們未來會把影片的部分"},{"start":5459.15,"end":5484.552,"text":"我們當然後續未來還會使用開口契約因為各個部會跟地方政府其實大家很多還是使用開口契約可是我們認為在開口契約使用裡面我們覺得未來我們會把影片或者是一些活動給拿出開口契約的適用的範圍這個是我們對於開口契約的檢討所以委員你現在提的其實我們對於包括救安基金的使用包括開口契約的檢討這都是正在落實中的事情"},{"start":5484.892,"end":5502.037,"text":"好 我要求務必落實另外一個勞發署的水電費被報出來說還有九成是由救安基金支出這個是事實嗎這是媒體報的這個是我們因為你剛剛已經說你要回歸公務預算了對 明年的公務預算裡面"},{"start":5503.413,"end":5521.978,"text":"這個因為現在勞發署的嘴電是1比9那我們有跟行政院爭取不應該再是這個比例但因為我們發辦署的業務裡面其實也有蠻大部分是在執行基金的業務所以你明年還是九成不是不是不是九成是降低了幾成應該是數是4比6了"},{"start":5522.711,"end":5538.846,"text":"就是降低到六成還是有救安基金支出因為這是跟主計討論我們來盤點 發完暑的業務裡面有多少是在辦救安基金的業務有一部分是勞動部你們自己所屬的暑在濫用我覺得這邊很好用金庫就是很多錢該編的不編編到這邊來"},{"start":5542.069,"end":5568.88,"text":"我要提醒這個部長的是現在面對關稅的衝擊事實上你的救安基金就應該要用在刀口上這一些現在已經開始無薪假的勞工真的是非常的辛苦到目前為止已經有4000人這個是有通報的我都擔心有一些不見得有通報上來已通報的就已經有4000人那他們有的很慘他可能他"},{"start":5569.96,"end":5585.212,"text":"減班休息無薪假之後有可能只領到基本工資28590那請問他少掉的這些薪資你們現在的雇用安定措施薪資補貼也頂多補貼一半薪資差的一半"},{"start":5585.609,"end":5597.785,"text":"不是 現在提高到七成 提高到七成很好但是你可以想像一個人原來的收入如果他的月薪是五萬塊他要養家然後他因為這樣的減班休息少了請問他的房貸他的車貸還有孩子的學貸怎麼辦這個都是衝擊"},{"start":5603.553,"end":5633.03,"text":"所以我要問你的是你現在除了薪資的補貼你現在差額補貼到七成之外你有沒有給他一些新的貸款的措施像這個九月要開學了很多他家裡有大學生的就是要付學貸了像這一些被衝擊到勞工他的家庭他的家庭支出他如果短時間沒有辦法因應我就問你你的救安基金相關編併的預算還有行政院150億你有沒有給予勞工額外彈性的他可以來無息貸款"},{"start":5634.606,"end":5650.459,"text":"無息貸款的部分其實確實現在沒有在這裡面那我們現在比較著重的事情我們覺得比較重要的事情是如果你減班休息我希望盡量還是把你留在職場上因為如果你調出職場你如果失業的話那後面會更麻煩"},{"start":5651.36,"end":5671.69,"text":"所以我們基本上我們的資源現在先比較集中在先撐住假如你有遇到減班休息的勞工他的經濟安全的部分所以剛剛委員在講到這也是為什麼我們在前兩個禮拜裡面我們其實把原本公安訂措施的五成的補貼薪資差的五成補貼拉高到七成甚至我們還有充電再出發其實可以併領"},{"start":5672.31,"end":5697.325,"text":"因為以前不能併零 以前你只能二選一現在可以併零 甚至可以到你原本的薪資水準但是你那個沖天債出發 你那個金額都是小的我要告訴你的是有些家庭他原本就有負債或者是他有一些貸款要支付他可能會因為這樣子 他需要一筆資金來運用你講的那個是對他單一月薪的部分的補貼他也不是百分之百所以我現在希望你回去 我們可以補到他"},{"start":5698.246,"end":5723.665,"text":"我現在希望你回去思考的這一波的關稅衝擊因為我們現在比日韓高出10%然後連知名的上櫃的公司如果都撐不住我擔心更多中小型的後面也撐不住所以你們除了原來的薪資補貼現在七成之外我希望你們去研議就是有沒有可能再額外給勞工這一個無息的貸款讓他至少撐過這一波再說"},{"start":5723.865,"end":5748.985,"text":"如果他有需求不要讓他們去借地下錢莊不要讓他們去借高利貸不要因為這一次的關稅衝擊造成他財務上面更血上加霜這個部分可不可以回去再研議我們可以來針對整體對勞工的支持綜合性的再來思考我希望你們去思考因為你們的這個115年就業安定基金你們現在的編列我希望你們再調整你們其實是要簡列"},{"start":5750.43,"end":5766.386,"text":"促進國民就業的部分怎麼還會減劣呢現在關稅衝擊的問題這麼大你們怎麼反而是下降我現在知道的訊息是你們是下降的是減少的反而是減少的我希望你回去好好檢討你們救安基金115年度你要編連"},{"start":5766.806,"end":5789.559,"text":"那個跟文說明當然我們回去可以再看一下你現在列出來這幾項增加跟減少我們可以再去確認但的確有一個部分就像剛才說的我們其實也把一些過去大家認為是在救安基金的支出我們認為應該要用公務預算的我們也把它跟行政院爭取希望可以用公務預算所以挪出去之後你的錢更多啊那你就更應該放在這個促進國民救援還是說你這個9.381都是原來不應該編在這裡的不是不是這個意思不是這個意思那我們可以確認細節"},{"start":5795.762,"end":5812.595,"text":"你就徹底檢討好不好我覺得這一波的關稅衝擊真的不要小看現在對傳產的衝擊其實是大的因為我們是20%就是加N了然後所以這個部分我希望勞動部你責無旁貸對於關稅的衝擊 部長你把你更多的心力"},{"start":5813.576,"end":5839.468,"text":"政治的部分你碰少一點你把你更多的心力放在勞工朋友現在最在乎的事情上面我覺得這個就是一個勞動部長你應該做到我們對於關稅的衝擊我們勞動部是嚴正以待全力戒備然後我們也不會做樂觀的樂觀的設想現在沒有樂觀的本錢了20%完全沒有樂觀的本錢我們會把相對嚴峻的狀況拿來作為我們準備的設想好我們希望給勞工最大的支撐跟支持謝謝"},{"start":5840.578,"end":5845.862,"text":"好 謝謝王明文發言 也謝謝洪部長答詢下一位請邱振軍委員發言主席好請部長 我看你要不要喝水不用了好 那請洪部長"},{"start":5866.835,"end":5882.35,"text":"邱委員長部長好還是銜接剛剛我們王一鳴委員提到的因為美國對等關稅我們20加N的因素我們看到這個最新的統計減班休息的人數從4月1號到8月18號短短4個月從1989人暴增到3934人幾乎翻倍"},{"start":5891.559,"end":5899.043,"text":"那而且有91%集中在這個製造業那減班休息的公司或工廠也從123家增加到191家成長55%其中因為美國關稅政策衝擊的高達73家2388人"},{"start":5909.289,"end":5931.19,"text":"那顯示這波關稅的衝擊是結構性的產業衝擊而且只是剛開始我要問的是照這樣的趨勢下去勞動部有沒有做過評估剛剛我剛剛有聽到說你們嚴陣以待 全力以赴那什麼時候會達到高峰還是只能被動的等七月一件一件的來報才會知道"},{"start":5932.226,"end":5956.113,"text":"第一個跟委員說明 農部這幾個月來一直以來我們都做很多評估包括持續的跟工會產業還有相關的學者都在保持大家動態性的這個掌握跟這個彼此之間的互相的提醒所以我們的確我們也有 我們有進行相關的評估有沒有 有沒有一個數值"},{"start":5959.224,"end":5985.294,"text":"我們部裡面的評估比較不是一份報告或一個數字我們部裡面的是持續性比方說我每個禮拜都會跟相關的學者跟企業包括跟這些產業的專家跟工會來update他們的訊息包括受衝擊的訊息來做動態評估滾動式動態評估的掌握我每個禮拜都必須做這件事情我們的分數也是每個禮拜都要把地方上面產業受衝擊的狀況"},{"start":5987.475,"end":6013.63,"text":"都要匯報到部裡面都要匯報給我看我每個禮拜都要掌握這些事情那這個我還是要盯您就是說這個部分我認為未來會更嚴重我希望勞動部能夠確實掌握這樣的一個狀況那另外這些進入減班休息的企業有多少實質申請實際申請到我們僱傭安定基金的補貼金額是多少你說減班休息的企業嗎目前"},{"start":6017.861,"end":6040.73,"text":"好目前減班休息是要滿30天才能夠申請所以雇用安定措施的期程是從8月1號開始所以我們相關的數字等一下我們再回覆給委員好你等一下再給我啦因為時間有限我還是我會問這個我是希望你能夠確實掌握數據不要說等我們再問你們一問三不知好不好那另外"},{"start":6041.61,"end":6064.942,"text":"在這些受檢班休息的 影響了3934人裡面有多少勞工參加充電再出發訓練的計畫 有沒有比較少比較少 因為他有準備要做因為他參與充電再出發他有些時候他需要時間包括地點上面要吻合所以這也是為什麼我們現在認為對於勞工的經濟生活的支持我們現在會以"},{"start":6067.162,"end":6089.067,"text":"這個固定安定措施為主所以這也是為什麼我們把五成拉高到七成的原因所以以固定安定措施為主以充電再出發或我們在講的再充電為輔現在就是說這些是這個停班減班的問題那因為我也看到就是說有可能企業當他關門了我們就沒有聯繫了"},{"start":6090.287,"end":6102.253,"text":"現在這個問題我突然就是注意到這個問題我們現在目前應該這個部分沒有去做追蹤跟協助有沒有如果就把他企業倒閉了他的員工怎麼辦"},{"start":6103.969,"end":6124.241,"text":"我們都會去做追蹤 甚至我們是主動聯繫然後呢有沒有去做剛剛我講的就是訓練再出發我們會入場做輔導的我希望你們能因為我這樣講就是我們現在應該勞動部要優先來保障我們本國的勞工在這種情況下勞動部有沒有討論過暫緩產業移工的輸入有沒有討論過這個問題"},{"start":6130.305,"end":6149.745,"text":"跟委員說明的確現在我們在產業上面我們會看到有部分的產業它是會有勞工就會衝擊的這樣子的風險可是也還是會有蠻多產業它處於缺工狀態所以我們的確看到現在產業缺工狀況它會有不太一樣的情況我只是提醒你不太均勻的狀況"},{"start":6150.786,"end":6175.733,"text":"當然我們現在產業缺工狀況還是有但是我們更要保護我們本國的勞工我的論點在這裡還是希望說不能說一昧的就只是我們一直讓這個外國的勞工進來移工進來讓我們本土的勞工沒有照顧到這個部分部長一定要多注意勞動部所有的政策也包括跨國勞動力的政策都會以保障本國的就業權利為優先"},{"start":6177.173,"end":6181.639,"text":"所以如果我們現在貿然的但是我們現在貿然的把移工進入都停下來這對缺工產業的影響會很大好那"},{"start":6187.545,"end":6211.519,"text":"這個我們除了這個保障最低工資之外還有沒有其他協助 都沒有了嗎 目前是沒有7成 你剛剛講7成嘛7成不是最低工資是企業一定要付給勞工的那我們補貼的是針對他原本的薪資跟他減班休息後的薪資 這會有個薪資差額這薪資差額的7成是由我們來補貼"},{"start":6212.64,"end":6238.493,"text":"剩下來的三成他也可以申請充電再出發現在是可以併領的那我再問下一個問題就是說這個救安基金濫用的問題就是因為許民村跟謝宜龍勞動部都有做精簡的檢討報告但是呢過去的可能發生的弊案你們不能視而不見那羅景任團隊拿到勞動部的案子原本開口契約寫得清清楚楚"},{"start":6239.313,"end":6249.085,"text":"羅景任應該交付35支影片兩場公關活動還有廣播脫波網路脫波結果10記者交了一支影片一場記者會卻要核銷1069萬那這件事呢我們審計部也在報告裡面直接點名了難以驗核履約的結果"},{"start":6258.757,"end":6277.939,"text":"那昨天院長也公開在院會公開講要徹查羅景任的案子那既然院長都已經下令了我就要請問部長勞動部你們目前的作為會是什麼好 我先跟委員說明媒體現在寫到的39次他並不是39支影片的意思"},{"start":6279.256,"end":6300.19,"text":"對不起 35市 我說錯35市 它並不是35支影片的意思市是一個計價的單位它不是一市就是一支影片 並不是這個意思所以這部分有點誤會但第二 可是我們確實在去年底救安基金的這個大家關注以後那我們也對相關的支用都做了檢討"},{"start":6301.451,"end":6327.267,"text":"我們的確認為在救安基金在執行面那個開口契約在執行面上面我自己認為是可以有更好的做法的所以也因為有更好的做法所以我們在去年底就把114年的沒宣的開口契約停下來檢討了接下來我們也會依照審計部給我們的指示來進行檢討目前有多少在案子裡你們勞動部列管"},{"start":6327.907,"end":6332.032,"text":"就是在之前你來之前然後你停下的這些案子有多少在列管"},{"start":6333.632,"end":6363.092,"text":"停下來就停下來 到目前這個開口契約 還有嗎我跟委員說明這個開口契約的標案停下來之後到現在都還是停的我們都還在檢討中 這個案子我認為啦當然媒體這樣寫我不一定是最對的我也希望說這個案子發生了我認為我們部裡面的態度還是要有就是說驗收是誰簽名誰放行責任人員要不要要把他交代清楚希望把這個案子"},{"start":6364.093,"end":6379.952,"text":"對於外界 給外界一個完整的說明可以嗎跟文說明我想對於救安基金的改革我們在1月發布以後現在都在落實執行中這個我問過你很多次我也相信你會去做這件事情剛剛我講的事情就希望部長做到好不好因為我還有兩個問題因為時間不太夠就是說"},{"start":6383.656,"end":6405.085,"text":"去年12月31日立法院通過三讀修正的就業服務法也在1月20號總統也公佈實施了那立法的過程裡行政機關有權表達意見提出修正甚至有說立委支持反對但一旦國會完成三讀的時候就是人民透過代議的制度的最終決定那"},{"start":6406.185,"end":6425.581,"text":"我看到你們的報告裡面你們在法律通過之後還繼續用會衝擊有隱憂的理由去質疑甚至阻礙這個政策的落實我要講的就是說既然這個法案已經通過了我們當然要把衝擊做到最小這是我們的責任是部裡面的責任是對不對但碰到什麼問題我們也很願意跟你來協助來處理這樣可以嗎"},{"start":6427.722,"end":6453.697,"text":"我們在立法去年底通過後從1月開始總統1月20號公佈之後我們就馬上著手相關的配套包括增加來源國的供引進的數量也包括這個輕重分流重症優先甚至我們也編列了經費跟預算就是希望減少衝擊所以我們並沒有代付我們的責任我們勞動部就好好做事情把事情衝擊做到最佳如果真的碰到"},{"start":6454.497,"end":6479.431,"text":"什麼問題需要立法院這邊來協助我們當然也會願意一起來解決我們的同仁日以繼夜在準備這個這個修法上路以後的希望降低衝擊的這件事情我認為我們同仁真的很辛苦在準備這些工作上面最後一個問題就是勞基法第54條去年7月31日修正公布公布了那允許勞僱雙方協商後延後這個強制退休年齡"},{"start":6480.211,"end":6507.478,"text":"以鼓勵中高年齡勞工繼續留在職場那現在已經過了一年多了我請問部長全國各企業執行的情況如何企業的比例如何那延後退休的勞工數有多少現在這個部分的話我們還沒有正式的統計我們會再進一步那你你多久可以給我資料我們再回去的話再整理一下看看能不能有資料給多久多久一個月內好嗎"},{"start":6509.68,"end":6537.946,"text":"15天啦 好不好因為這已經放那麼久了嘛好 謝謝部長好 謝謝蔡政委員的發言謝謝紅部長的答詢 下一位我們請蘇清泉委員發言先預告一下待會等這個蘇清泉委員發言以後接著是廖偉祥委員發言等廖偉祥委員答詢完畢以後休息10分鐘蘇清泉請好 我今天生日有告白"},{"start":6541.276,"end":6548.526,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長部長辛苦了"},{"start":6554.752,"end":6581.819,"text":"來 我三個問題第一個就是我們這個就會附法46條就是這個外籍看護的問題這個原有是怎麼來早上陳慶威 陳昭志委員都有提那我跟大家報告這個是2024年選總統的時候活有餘提出來的證件那這個這一個案子的起草人是誰就是我"},{"start":6584.391,"end":6588.123,"text":"為什麼那個時候會停因為那個時候很多臨床醫師都非常困擾"},{"start":6589.448,"end":6613.618,"text":"非常非常痛苦 因為常常就是為了開個巴士票 亮票 包括我常常都被拜託 每天每天糾紛我說覺得這不是必要 那麼就造成很多臨床醫師的困擾那也有衝突過 甚至有動手的所以那個時候就提出來 提出來就大家都很贊成"},{"start":6615.492,"end":6642.579,"text":"那就在去年年底就通過了嘛現在這個案子已經在公告實施了那第二個問題這個法是我是覺得是OK的啦第二個問題就是說這些外籍的看護人來台灣之後他們會挑軟的重症的沒辦法過"},{"start":6643.621,"end":6659.108,"text":"是不是 我們會怕這個嘛那個委員不要說挑軟的啦他可能就是說其實人性上都會希望能夠去找相對這個比較容易然後我覺得不要說挑軟的啦沒有啦 這個是人性啦"},{"start":6660.154,"end":6683.491,"text":"我講一個我們醫界公會生包括醫師、藥師這些在服務的時候他們派到偏遠地區能夠服務第二階段的他們去了之後譬如說去到部立恆春醫院然後他們去了半年甚至一年他們就可以申請轉換地方了"},{"start":6685.276,"end":6707.995,"text":"實際上鄉村很需要人,但是他就跟你說,他們也有一個協會,他就說他家住得不舒服,院長對他不好等等,他可以轉,真的是可以轉,他也轉成了,所以這個他們能轉是他們的權利,外籍的看護也好,外籍勞工也好,他要申請轉換,"},{"start":6710.067,"end":6721.676,"text":"這個是本來他們就有這個權利的不是這個修法之後才有的所以第二個我要跟大家報告的就是說這個換僱主不是修這個法由才可以換僱主本來他就可以換所以這不是理由"},{"start":6727.563,"end":6742.062,"text":"第三就是你們過了之後你們的門檻也加了很多譬如說要先上網登記一個禮拜之後沒有本國的看護來apply你才可以開始排隊"},{"start":6743.543,"end":6769.238,"text":"我們沒有加 這不是增加的門檻這是原本就有的原本就有這是原本就有的 這不是增加的我在上次也有跟你執行過我說你們擔心說80歲以上可以這樣申請就可以直接申請外籍看護你會怕說會有10萬個人來apply對不對 你預估啦就是健康的 亞健康的我跟你說 我說"},{"start":6770.731,"end":6798.944,"text":"好客好手的人沒台沒錢要請一個外籍客人來陪他那不是笑的那不爽耶那不爽耶現在大家不是在玩好鬼耶委員那是真的有這樣的案例啊才一個幾個一千多個到現在一千多個你再看我們再看半年看多少人我可以跟你保證最後我要跟你報告的就是說外籍的勞工來台灣做營建業做什麼業現在有七八十萬人嘛"},{"start":6800.758,"end":6823.127,"text":"製造業就是整體的這個外籍的移工加起來是這個數字那他們的薪水是比照我們的基本工資嘛 對不對所以他們一戶可以拿到三萬塊如果加一半就三四萬所以他們那一戶他們的收入還不錯但是外籍看護他們的薪水多少"},{"start":6825.222,"end":6838.596,"text":"也沒有公司 目前是兩萬塊以上多少 兩萬塊或兩萬出頭兩萬出而已喔兩萬出喔 太少了啦我跟你報告我爸爸我媽媽都有請外籍九十幾歲 那個孫"},{"start":6840.714,"end":6866.662,"text":"那個外籍的看護我都覺得表演得很好我是給他基本工資的我給他要三萬塊所以很高興這就大家互相嘛他就顧得很認真我如果請台灣的我告訴你請台灣的各位客人請他休息七萬塊就沒得請七萬塊沒得請對不對我對你知不知道"},{"start":6868.243,"end":6883.474,"text":"對 但是委員你要考慮一下可能一些就是可能要更多面向的所以 我要跟你報告就是說我們這些外籍的看護19萬多 20萬多 21萬多這些人來台灣 我覺得我們要聽哨啦當然我們要聽喇喇啦當然你有搞這個安定會 你又搞什麼給他管吃管住 你給他2萬塊"},{"start":6897.146,"end":6910.277,"text":"我也覺得很少 因為日本就給4萬塊啦韓國也給4萬塊 但是日本 韓國給他查他沒有在分什麼外籍看護 外籍勞工啦他們好像都打死都是一個價嘛 是不是這樣 部長你知道嗎"},{"start":6914.09,"end":6926.959,"text":"他們的價格 他們的薪資的價格的確是比我們高尤其他們蠻多是機構在聘請的對 他們給到差不多4萬億啦對所以比我們多所以我們搶 搶不贏人啊所以現在這個外籍的看護一個月薪水你會覺得太貴嗎"},{"start":6936.277,"end":6963.697,"text":"的確這個很多的這個來源母國也跟我們反映希望能夠把這個外籍的看護的薪資的下限能夠再做提高這很多來源母國也跟我們來反映有這個期待所以現在一個請一個外籍看護就是兩萬塊左右然後就安定基金繳多少就安定會繳多少三千塊每個月是兩千兩千那一般勞工也是兩千嗎"},{"start":6965.612,"end":6972.595,"text":"那就2萬2然後管吃管住加起來差不多3萬3萬塊3萬多應該是說其實很多經濟弱勢勉強的也不少1.2萬1.2萬經濟弱勢勉強的有1.2萬那但是就是委員剛剛講的這整體的這個我想"},{"start":6985.639,"end":7011.152,"text":"外籍看護的整個制度當然我們也在持續性的在觀察也包括在部裡面也在討論怎麼經濟就像我剛才說其實來源的母國也一直有跟我們反應希望能夠讓這些外籍看護的薪資再提升但的確這裡面我們也在思考會有蠻多現在比方說他可能是比較弱勢的家庭他如果要請或者是他經濟收入比較沒有那麼好的可能沒有像委員這樣委員你畢竟我是自強戶"},{"start":7012.592,"end":7039.925,"text":"對…畢竟像你的經濟的水平我們都跟不上那是脫貧 剛脫貧那會有一些在經濟條件上可能不一定那麼好他們也是需要這個外籍的看護所以我們是綜合的評估考慮可是的確當然我們會持續的滾動來思考這些事情好 這個是要跟國際競爭那來源國就是這幾個國家但是我跟你報告"},{"start":7041.215,"end":7061.49,"text":"我們菲律賓人口1億,他在外面當勞工,不管是看護或者勞工,他有1000多萬人。印尼3億,差不多3億3的人口,他也很多在外面。印度14億人口,他在外面當外籍勞工的將近4000萬人。"},{"start":7062.921,"end":7071.849,"text":"所以那是很龐大的來源那我有查了一下像印尼那邊他們現在失業率蠻高他們要出來的人還不少所以應該是"},{"start":7075.232,"end":7098.568,"text":"請不上人這不過是我們的行事外資康復沒有競爭力請不到人會不會跟委員說明第一個我們其實從1月開始以後其實就跟我們的來源母國在協商希望他們引進的數量可以再提高所以增加引進的供給量這事情是我們一直在做的這是一直在做的"},{"start":7099.068,"end":7115.477,"text":"但這裡面確實也要思考到來源母國他們一些因為你進來要做外籍看護你有一定的訓練的能量因為這我們也不希望影響到品質所以這個我們一直在做但就像委員說的的確我們在台灣請外籍看護的薪資比方跟日韓比起來可能是差了一些"},{"start":7116.337,"end":7143.058,"text":"那我們比較不希望看到的狀況的確還是之前講的可是我要跟委員說明我們並不是把器重責輕當成是目標不是我們作為一個行政部門可能要把各種可能會發生的衝擊把它思考進來然後為可能的衝擊來做因應的準備所以我們沒有辦法去想得很樂觀說一定人會很少還是怎樣我們要把這個可能的挑戰"},{"start":7144.019,"end":7170.985,"text":"再多想一些多想一些如果我有條件對於比較多的人數進來或者多的需求出現的時候來做因應的時候如果人數比較少的話我也相對比較有充裕的條件我做行政部門不能只想簡單的我們要想比較嚴峻的狀況這是我們的責任我們當然希望我們本國的兆福園能夠充足啦但是我們本國兆福園要求是出來有關嘛"},{"start":7171.505,"end":7179.433,"text":"他也很會挑案子 他也很會計算所以本國的照顧人員也很會計算他們的待遇很高"},{"start":7182.479,"end":7202.963,"text":"現在剩下的食物都不錯,我們衛務部,我們次長在那邊,他們現在一直在調高,也希望我們這邊能充裕嘛,對不對?所以,我們台灣自己可以自己照顧老人,老的照顧比較老的,自己可以接受是最好啦,如果國務理事長請國外的,你就要去跟他們拚嘛,所以這是你們的套路啊。"},{"start":7206.226,"end":7223.592,"text":"你們的任務 你們的MISSION所以你要請教人 我們絕對支持要請教一百多個 八百多個 八百多個我們都要支持絕對要支持到底 這樣好不好好 謝謝委員支持好 謝謝蘇星文的發言謝謝洪部長的答詢下一位請廖偉祥委員發言"},{"start":7236.603,"end":7253.274,"text":"謝謝主席有請洪部長請洪部長廖委員早部長早部長我想要先針對今天主要兩個大題那第一題呢我想要先針對救安基金"},{"start":7254.164,"end":7275.721,"text":"那救安基金被披露啊2022年到2024年之間補助電視劇靈日攻擊導演的羅景仁團隊獲得救安基金2872萬元的補助那我要先講這個前幾天有這個新聞出來的時候勞動部好像是問A答B你說你們沒有補助這個靈日攻擊但是其實他們在講就是說補助這個團隊"},{"start":7277.202,"end":7286.736,"text":"好那這個部分還是用開口契約來發包所以要請部長注意我剛剛講過我們不是說針對補助臨日公集這個隱疾而是針對"},{"start":7288.325,"end":7316.591,"text":"救安基金來補助羅導演拍勞動部影片的部分在程序上提出很嚴正的質疑開口契約就台北市政府訂定的採購注意事項解釋是用於契約所列的履約期間數量不定由機關依實際需要隨時通知廠商履約的採購那我想相信不管是中央或地方這個大概都是類似的概念和規定"},{"start":7317.631,"end":7337.609,"text":"所以換句話說這是一個可以依照政府機關自身的需求做出彈性的採購但是針對於得標廠商而言他是不用列出相關的計劃內容或者成效目標的空白支票那最終也可能導致行政機關勞動部驗收的時候無法核驗的情況"},{"start":7338.47,"end":7357.429,"text":"那我想這也都是審計部年度報告跟救安基金專門審計報告一而再再而三點出來的內容包含之前有提到淨什麼前進的光相關的音樂會濫用的部分所以我想要請問一下部長這個媒體宣傳的經費跟使用方式是不是由部本部統籌是嗎"},{"start":7359.791,"end":7376.648,"text":"先跟廖委員說明第一個我並不是問A打B因為就像委員看到當天的媒體的下標左邊這個標所以因為這個媒體的標題很多人在讀到這個標的時候都來問我們 都來問勞動部為什麼勞動部補助零日工級"},{"start":7377.589,"end":7406.11,"text":"很多人來問我們這個問題但是這個標讓很多人在讀起來的時候都來問我們說為什麼所以我們才要說勞動部沒有補助臨時工級因為當天真的很多人來問我們這個問題所以我才要講這是第一點那第二點剛剛委員在問到開口契約的問題的時候的確我們後來在去年底做了開口契約的部長我想先請問第一個問題我剛說是不是這個煤圈的費用和經費和使用都是有不本不統籌是吧"},{"start":7406.63,"end":7414.709,"text":"那我想要先再問一下那當初這個是誰當初是不同意對那是誰簽准同意這個開口合約的方式針對這個案子"},{"start":7418.274,"end":7445.18,"text":"我想我還是必須說就是針對當初的這個開口契約的使用那我們其實在去年年底我們就做出了檢討部長你先回答我嘛當初這個這個導演他相關的案子他的開口合約和這樣子的媒體採購 媒宣採購的部分是誰同意使用這個開口合約方式我現在手上可能沒有這個資料你沒有但你知道嗎我現在手上沒有這個資料那你們知道嗎你們有去調查嗎"},{"start":7446.533,"end":7461.903,"text":"有嗎我跟委員說明現在這些相關的救安基金的案子你先不要用說在檢調那裡因為看起來你們也搞不清楚狀況我只是想問說因為剛剛部長也有說你們有這個要做懲處啊或是內部要去做檢調那到底是誰你們知道嗎"},{"start":7463.084,"end":7482.669,"text":"不知道的話怎麼懲處怎麼去做我們做了檢討了檢討你是叫制度面嗎我們對於接下來開口契約的使用方式包括適用的範圍我們做出了檢討我們認為比方說像是一些影片我們就認為不太適合再放在這個政策宣導的開口契約裡面"},{"start":7483.869,"end":7506.577,"text":"除了影片之外的沒選呢還是有很多開口契約嗎除了影片我們認為一些影片包括一些活動的辦理不適合放在開口契約部長因為你還是沒有回答我問題好我再問下一題我等一下再回來問你這一題純粹看補助的成效其實也非常的糟糕在2022年的時候拍攝勞動節主題影片製作阿仿洗衣店他單支影片補助是1069就是1069萬按讚數僅488"},{"start":7512.139,"end":7532.758,"text":"那2023年呢 這個羅導演又接續接了勞動節的主題影片紙紮片補助971萬元 按讚數是1761那2024年呢 又補助了 又拍攝了第三支影片勞動萬歲搬家片 花了831萬 按讚數只有202個"},{"start":7536.681,"end":7548.566,"text":"那平均一個站最便宜是6000塊最貴4.1萬我想這樣的成果是民眾百姓是看不下去的是沒辦法看下去這也是為什麼我們要去"},{"start":7549.656,"end":7572.044,"text":"看緊荷包所以包含部長這個羅導演在臉書說他拍攝超過1500支廣告客戶來自全球世界各地是純粹的商業廣告導演許多的作品在好像各地都有獲獎那我想要問請問為什麼拍出的成果這麼糟糕那只有幾種可能嗎第一個"},{"start":7572.904,"end":7590.592,"text":"拍攝的成品有問題商業案他所謂號稱優秀的導演那面對公部門的標案是不是隨便亂做這是第一個可能第二可能勞動部在驗收的時候放水成品有瑕疵卻不知道第三個可能是成品好可能很優秀但勞動部拿到成品後卻不積極宣傳"},{"start":7591.852,"end":7612.78,"text":"那我想不管是哪一種都是讓人沒有辦法接受的所以部長我想問到底是哪一個單位負責驗收然後驗收報告可不可以提供給本席跟委員會成效這麼差成效這麼差你可以看到成效這麼糟糕這麼糟糕的成效為什麼可以連續三年拿到標案"},{"start":7613.5,"end":7637.515,"text":"跟委員說明第一個這個成效有點難只看一個單一的平台上面這些按讚數單一平台嗎那如果所有平台加起來多少我先跟委員說明這三支這三支影片都有獲得4A的創意獎其中一支甚至還入圍這個坎城創意獎我想這入圍這些獎項跟得這個獎都不是容易的事情這三支影片"},{"start":7637.935,"end":7655.044,"text":"所以你覺得是重點是在於宣傳還是是我要跟委員說的是說第一個這並不是三支很糟糕的影片不是像委員剛才口中說很糟糕的影片我說成效啊他得到很多的獎項那其實他的品質也是好的"},{"start":7655.512,"end":7683.083,"text":"那就成效或者是點閱數來說的話也不能只是看單一一個平台也包括他脫波的次數都包括在這裡面所以我要跟文說明說當然這個這位導演他在廣告界有他素有聲譽的地方來部長我跟你說第一個我剛有說成果很差有三種可能我也不是完全就是說這個得獎還是怎麼樣的成效"},{"start":7683.763,"end":7709.87,"text":"我是問說他的這個宣傳的成果是很差的不然你當初你拍這個片不是重點就是要宣傳嗎好那成果差我剛有說三種可能一個成品有問題會不會是優秀導演他做出來成品沒問題那你說成品沒問題成品沒問題那是不是你驗收的時候是怎麼驗收的是不是有放水還是說成品很優秀你沒有好好的經營沒有好好的宣傳所以我的問題是部長是哪一個單位驗收"},{"start":7710.29,"end":7731.358,"text":"那驗收的報告包含你剛剛說的不只是網路的成果還有包含脫波這些相關的成效我想問說驗收報告可不可以提供給本席跟委員會我想我們其實之前在我們包括審計的一些報告我們其實都有提供給立法院的然後再來剛剛說為什麼連續三年度還可以拿到開口契約"},{"start":7732.68,"end":7755.751,"text":"然後我想就我所知因為當時不是我主政好所以我想就我所知是因為這位導演第一個他真的在廣告界裡面素有聲譽而且他的拍攝的成果的品質也都做到很多的好評就我知道是這樣所以因為這樣子那所以只要說他素有聲譽他來拍就可以輕鬆得標是這樣子嗎我不知道"},{"start":7756.511,"end":7785.042,"text":"那所以我想要問的就是我不知道什麼輕不輕鬆但是就我知道之所以他拿到所以部長我想請問一下他的確是業界非常非常知名而且他的工作的成果也很好的這個部長我還是想要回到剛剛講的那到底是誰簽合的你們到底部內知不知道然後當初你們簽的剛剛前面委員也有講到他本來應該要履約的是35部影片兩場記者會但是最後呢只有一部影片一場記者會"},{"start":7785.982,"end":7809.273,"text":"那這個部分到底是誰驗收所以第一個問題 各位說明其實現在有點誤會35市那個市並不是指一市就是一部影片不是這個意思你可以看很多的開口卻並不是市代表的是一個計價單位那是多少一個計價單位大概是19萬多吧大概19萬4千多等一下部長那我還是你回到我的問題喔"},{"start":7810.833,"end":7826.623,"text":"這個細節我剛才不是問你說一試多少我是要問說那是誰驗收的因為你剛才說35部影片那不是35部影片35試那我想要請問到底是誰驗收所以你認為他得到這些金額他目前繳交的成果是完全合理的跟委員說明我們正是"},{"start":7827.963,"end":7851.413,"text":"那為什麼你剛剛又要說你們有回去要懲處相關的在前面的委員在問的時候我跟廖委員說明我是說你剛才問我說這個導演這個導演他真的在業界是素有聲譽的那他拍出來的這三支影片的確也得獎很多這是事實他的確得獎很多但是這個開口契約在執行面的做法我們認為我到部裡面以後"},{"start":7852.389,"end":7880.646,"text":"我認為是可以有更好的執行的方式的那請問是誰去簽的這個是誰核准這個開口契約我現在可能我手邊沒有這個那你什麼時候可以給本席辦公室跟委員會我們可能回去來看一下相關的資料但是我要說的事情是說我們其實已經把相關的開口契約停下來檢討了所以我再進來問一下請問部長現在還有其他的沒選是用開口契約的嗎今年是沒有了沒有了你剛剛是說年初還有你是先暫停"},{"start":7881.887,"end":7904.165,"text":"我去年底去年底在114年的開口契約的標案我就把它給廢標停下來到現在都還是停的我們都停下來檢討了所以這個部分現在都不會再用開口契約不是我講的不是未來不會是我們在檢討在美宣上面還需要嗎讓我說明我們認為在開口契約的使用上面"},{"start":7905.146,"end":7921.069,"text":"未來可能不適合再把影片或者是活動放到因為影片跟活動其實它比較沒有一個公定的價格所以可能會造成大家比較多在理解上面或者是包括在驗收上面比較就像審計部說的那樣"},{"start":7921.79,"end":7939.185,"text":"所以這是為什麼我們做出檢討以後我們就把標案給停下來那我們未來接下來就算要用開口契約也會把這幾個項目從開口契約的範圍拿出來我認為這樣子的情況是非常的有疑義的這中間到底有沒有圖利問題是不是應該要請部長請政風移送檢調進行刑事調查"},{"start":7940.606,"end":7964.925,"text":"跟文說明現在這個我們在救安基金的致用的問題上面其實檢調都一直是有立案在調查所以有包含這個案子嗎也有全部的資料全部都有配合檢調調查是好那到時候再把剛剛我們我剛剛本席提的就是說到底是誰核准這些開口契約用這種沒宣的費用的方式到時候給本席和委員會報告好不好我們回去再看一下相關的事再來就是這個開口契約使用我們是徹底的檢討中的"},{"start":7968.208,"end":7987.491,"text":"再來再問一下接下來是針對我們今天的主題巴士量表針對這個部分當初勞動部一直在修法前到現在都說會有10萬的人申請會衝擊重症家庭那我想要請問一下部長第一週到底是申請的多少人那到8月17節止到底有多少人申請"},{"start":7988.653,"end":8004.473,"text":"我們現在看到的數據 第一週確實是比較少那第二週就是第一週的兩倍 比較少是多少應該是四百多 四百多四五百 四五百 四百多 四五百然後第二週是 以前就是第一週的兩倍那我想要請 所以到8月17為止總共是多少現在是1450左右 1450"},{"start":8007.176,"end":8033.507,"text":"那所以兩週下來大約1450一個月大約是可能不到3000件2800件2900件左右那我會說現在啦我會說目前這樣推估我當然知道接下來你很難預估未來的狀況我們現在比較難急下去預估未來一定他的趨勢的走向那我想要請教一下因為確實這個趨勢在12週來說是上升的那80歲以上跟70歲以上的這個癌症患者"},{"start":8034.187,"end":8037.921,"text":"就是可以符合申請條件的目前有申請並通過的又是幾件"},{"start":8040.613,"end":8064.193,"text":"時間點都還沒有辦法 他現在都還在求財登記的階段他現在是在求財接濟 後面才會取得這個求財的證明那後面才是招募許可所以部長其實我想要講的事情是其實今天的報告你完全沒有提到這些相關的數字喔今天你們提供的報告只有在質詢的時候你才把剛剛的數字講出來所以我希望這個部分應該是要用"},{"start":8065.114,"end":8088.196,"text":"科學務實理性的方式去看數字的變化而不是一直喊這種狼來了10萬多人過去立法就是用這種政治性的語言我覺得現在既然政策要上路了我們就是務實的面對所以第一週你說400多人第二週是1000人所以總共目前為止17號其實17號是1450人那我想要講的事情是其實在實務上"},{"start":8089.724,"end":8112.426,"text":"目前也有人說地方上就是說你有資格申請但是在申請程序上你剛說前面先7天登記在這個國內的求財7天先求財7天沒有然後才會去進一步的審查對不對然後在審查上面審查會上面審查員這個是這個地方民眾的反應就是說也有可能會有技術性的阻擋不會"},{"start":8113.487,"end":8131.125,"text":"不會 所以就是只要過了就會重開我跟委員說明其實對於輕症的來說就是按照過去過去怎麼做現在就怎麼做輕症的部分我們做的是把重症做優先可是我們不會去阻擋也不會去卡輕症的好 那我想要說的是包含台南的就業服務工會的這個理事長"},{"start":8131.986,"end":8146.948,"text":"他是有提到在報道上面有提到他就說假設第一年這個其實只有申請他說以目前他們的推估這是業界的推估不是我的推估他說以目前這樣看起來前面的這些數字第一年可能申請的就是2萬到3萬人"},{"start":8148.55,"end":8168.686,"text":"那本席是想問說那具體而言這部分補得足嗎然後再來是因為本來年初通過這個法案你有大概7個月的準備期嗎那這個部分你們究竟成果如何因為你擔心是來源不足或是移工看護的量能不足那你也多了7個月的時間我想請問你補得上這個"},{"start":8170.154,"end":8186.449,"text":"目前的進度是怎麼樣跟文說明在去年底通過然後1月20號總統公告後我們馬上就找四個移工的來源國在商議要增加這個引進的量我們馬上就跟他們討論了"},{"start":8187.45,"end":8212.549,"text":"部長我不是要問你過程我想問結果就是說成果是什麼因為當初一通過你說需要給勞動部時間去消化嘛那我只是想問說因為你看我們8月1號上路目前為止是1450好那我們假設預估啦假設預估用所謂業界的標準來看假設一年是2到3萬人那想要請問這個部分勞動部準備的怎麼樣過去7個月成果如何"},{"start":8213.089,"end":8231.693,"text":"然後未來是不是可以就是這個來源訓練因為你剛剛有說其實你剛剛部長也有說到目前的來源國他可能是也有足夠的量可是你也要兼顧訓練的品質嘛對不對所以看起來我都不敢用足夠這兩個字但我們會盡量的跟他協商增加"},{"start":8232.193,"end":8249.141,"text":"所以沒有換言之其實重點問題到底在哪是不是訓練的量能是嗎我跟委員說明其實這七個月左右的時間我們做了幾件事情第一個剛才跟來源母國來協商增加第二個我們也建立了輕重分流重症優先的"},{"start":8251.467,"end":8268.27,"text":"這個機制審查流程這跟很謝謝衛福部一起協助第三個我把讓委員讓我說我們也擴編了預算包括擴編了人力來補充包括這個照管中心他可能所需要的人力包括我們自己需要審案件的人力"},{"start":8269.031,"end":8294.241,"text":"所以經費跟人力我們也增加了這都是7個月左右的時間我們的配套包括這些人力也還要訓練喔這些增加的人力都還要訓練這就是在這7個月裡面我們在進行的事情部長好那我在這裡說謝謝感謝勞動部的所有同仁這個大家辛苦了那也感謝大家因為其實這個是一個在民間是一個德政但是我還是想要問我們務實的討論嘛我剛剛說了那個就業服務"},{"start":8298.022,"end":8326.096,"text":"那個同業工會這個台南理事長今天報導寫他說如果以目前的量來看預計可能是2萬到3萬人一年那我就只是剛剛一個簡單的問題就是說面對這樣的狀況假設是2到3萬的需求量請問現在勞動部過去7個月你剛剛做的那些可能都是方法或者是你有做了哪些努力我只是想問說那你成果是怎麼樣你目前估計起來這2萬到3萬人你有沒有辦法消化"},{"start":8327.896,"end":8355.144,"text":"我想我們還是要真的還是要努力啦請問有沒有相關的數字給本席啊就是說你過去7個月你剛剛說你做了這麼多的努力好那我想要請問那你這7個月你有多了多少的移工看護因為這基本上是供需問題嘛不是移工看護不是從不是這7個月移工看護是要到8月1號才開始進來所以那你預估你過去的努力可以增加有沒有辦法消化我剛剛意思也是這樣就是說你未來"},{"start":8356.738,"end":8380.154,"text":"我剛剛再次講他們預估的數據打這是一年兩到三萬人多這個需求的申請那想要請問勞動部請就我的問題就是說你過去七個月的準備你認為接下來這一年你有沒有辦法提供這樣子的量我們會全力以赴啦我們相關的準備我們會全力以赴部長有沒有預估的數字不能就是只有講全力以赴我一直想要表達就是說數據在這裡"},{"start":8386.519,"end":8403.272,"text":"像我們有補助衛福部的這個照管中心的一些人力包括我們部裡面審查的人力其實這些人力補助的多跟少我們也一直在密切的看那就是看這個案源的量增加多少"},{"start":8404.133,"end":8430.549,"text":"按援的量增加多少大家現在的確有各種預估有些人預估比較高一點有些人比較預估低一點但從勞動部的角度我們應該要把狀況設想的比較如果人比較多我們可以因應的話那就相對有比較好的條件來去面對人比較少的狀況我覺得是這樣就是說勞動部應該要做好所謂的高預估中預估然後可能低預估那你就是剛剛你說的勞動部要"},{"start":8431.71,"end":8453.027,"text":"这个严谨的面对嘛所以假设是高预估那你究竟现在的量能可以符合是什么到底是可以符合你的低预估呢还是中预估还是你高预估现在做不到那我们就要去想那怎么解决嘛我要跟委员说明的确我们现在在收到的一些案子包括来城前案子里面也包括比方说会有一些他的看护的雇主他在表达说"},{"start":8454.247,"end":8472.238,"text":"因為這個修法之後所以有些看護部長不好意思我是覺得我們不要一直用這種個案式的就要有人來反映這個有人來反映那個我其實想要表達就是這樣因為這是實況啊那實況是我剛剛一直問你這是實況我在講的是實況究竟你量能的數據可不可以符合嗎我們會盡力"},{"start":8474.994,"end":8497.197,"text":"好部長因為時間我知道我也過很久可是我還是想要告訴大家其實可以看到我剛問的問題是勞動部是沒有具體的數據我知道勞動部的大家都很辛苦但是我是希望說一樣務實理性面對所以剛剛說的都是數字現在已經上路了8月17號1450人申請好那究竟一年推估大約多少我剛也說了"},{"start":8498.298,"end":8519.937,"text":"這個業界說可能是一年兩到三萬那究竟勞動部假設兩到三萬好了是中推估好那你可不可以符合你目前過去七個月所做的努力你剛講了你做了很多的努力好我們都沒有要抹殺但是究竟你可不可以補上一年兩三萬的這個缺口我們會盡力全力以赴這是我其實本席重要的問題我們會盡力全力以赴但是不能夠只說全力以赴啦"},{"start":8521.338,"end":8546.204,"text":"我沒有要你講太滿我們也是務實理性嘛我剛剛就說了低推估中推估高推估那你究竟目前為止你過去7個月的努力你究竟是可以做到低推估中推估還是高推估部長你剛剛都沒有回答我你只有回答我全力以赴我知道大家都很辛苦但委員說明我沒有辦法把話講得太滿那因為這裡面的確還有不確定性那沒有部長那你可不可以告訴我你不能講太滿那你可不可以告訴我你的低推估中推估高推估你可以滿足的是什麼"},{"start":8547.044,"end":8567.917,"text":"其實我剛剛一直要問的是這個這是我為什麼要講剛剛的例子因為你要講滿足滿足這個話要這是這個不容易我說數量我說為什麼不容易讓我說明為什麼不容易因為其實現在是有很多的這些聘僱看護的長者他確實現在遇到看護會跟他說我真的想轉出了"},{"start":8569.761,"end":8592.26,"text":"真的表達他想轉出或者是他要求增加薪資這個事情其實對於很多聘僱的家庭來說對他來講也是一個新的情境的衝擊部長所以剛剛我提到的就是你的供應也是修法以後產生的狀況你過去7個月準備供應來源有沒有辦法補上就可以彌補你剛剛說的狀況因為如果你的供應來源是足夠的他可能就沒有這個所謂的狀況發生"},{"start":8595.642,"end":8615.609,"text":"但是這確實還是有母國的因素他不全然控制在我們手上好謝謝今天在場有很多官員我相信剛剛我的問題應該是蠻單純的就是說這個供應究竟足不足夠那我希望的是部長請大家一起共同務實理性面對現在既然有數字了那究竟數字預估多少以及你可不可以趕上請"},{"start":8616.849,"end":8645.254,"text":"那個櫃部可以提供本席報告好不好針對我剛剛的問題因為你剛剛沒有辦法回答我好那我希望可以提供給本席跟委員會你們究竟可以提在這一年過去七個月準備接下一年可能會遇到的量能你究竟準備了多少這個我覺得是比較務實的我們把我們準備的量能可以好不好好謝謝謝謝謝謝廖委員還有部長剛剛主席是有宣布廖委員講完之後休息十分鐘那我看黃雄委員在現場"},{"start":8646.56,"end":8657.293,"text":"然後部長等一下要離開嘛 對不對那是不是要不要好 我們就更正一下 重新宣告黃修昂委員執行完之後 我們再休息好 有請謝謝主席 我們先請洪部長來 請部長"},{"start":8675.556,"end":8696.59,"text":"黃委員好 部長好 部長這個就業服務法第46條那現在開始上路80歲以上長者聘用外籍看護就是免巴氏量表那當然就是說我們也會擔心就是說一些重症的家庭會聘僱這個外籍看護可能會有一些困難"},{"start":8697.23,"end":8712.485,"text":"那我也看到就是說勞動部這邊有做一些就是對於這個重症的家庭有一些配套措施那我是不是可以再請部長針對這一部分因為有一些民眾會擔心那我是不是可以先請部長簡單做一個說明"},{"start":8715.348,"end":8729.565,"text":"那我還是跟大家說明就是其實對於可能這個這個修法是要修法後那可能會對於重症家庭的衝擊我想勞動部跟衛福部我們很積極的做了一些相關的配套那其中包括"},{"start":8730.326,"end":8737.951,"text":"我想我们现在规划了一个轻重分流重症我们优先来做审查希望能尽量降低他来申请"},{"start":8760.086,"end":8785.169,"text":"所以你們人力都已經編足了我們都已經編了那目前有已經上路之後有遇到什麼樣的狀況嗎其實的確因為上路到現在大概兩個多禮拜兩個多禮拜的時間那第一個禮拜的申請的數字比較少那第二個禮拜申請的數字就是第一個禮拜的兩倍可是未來的趨勢會如何還要一點時間來觀察那我想"},{"start":8785.849,"end":8812.874,"text":"我們部裡面的同仁包括衛福部的同仁我們還是現在是很積極的來盡量的趕快來協助尤其是重症家庭的申請的量所以重症的家庭的確比方說他們在求財的登記上面他只要一天所以他有一些比較相對快速通關的機制這也希望能夠讓重症的家庭能夠更加的方便但是的確我們還是會有擔心就是說如果未來的量增加的時候會不會影響或會不會排行"},{"start":8814.214,"end":8839.661,"text":"對 或者是現在有一些在聘僱外籍看護的長者那他們的確現在也收到可能看護會來反映說是不是有接下來在上路後他們有點會想轉出等等的這個這樣子的資訊我們也陸陸續續從各地有收到這樣的訊息那我想我們還是會就整體的狀況來因應那我們希望尤其是對中正的家庭能夠給最多的支持"},{"start":8839.841,"end":8851.255,"text":"OK 好 謝謝部長因為我最主要是讓部長能夠充分的做一個說明因為地方還是會有一些疑慮那謝謝部長接下來我們請那個呂次長來呂次 謝謝"},{"start":8859.662,"end":8879.112,"text":"市長好 市長原本我今天是想要問邱部長的就是前幾天我們看到有關公費生就是衛福部原本有一個重點培育的公費醫師的計畫好像今年已經要停辦"},{"start":8880.433,"end":8909.6,"text":"那目前就是有幾所學校已經跳出來就是說像中山中興然後還有清大他們原本就是因為這個重點特別培育的公費醫師制度計畫然後設一個這個後醫學系那因為這個計畫停止之後變成說他們沒有這個公費生的就沒辦法再繼續招公費生那我記得我在上個月有針對這一部分有"},{"start":8911.141,"end":8925.691,"text":"質詢這個部長就是說因為地方有一個疑慮就是說如果這個重點科別培育的公費醫師制度計畫如果停止之後可能偏鄉未來可能偏鄉找不到醫生"},{"start":8926.852,"end":8946.289,"text":"因為我們現在這個重點科別就是針對這個可能婦科兒科集中南韓這樣的一個專科醫師去做培育那我們也看到就是說現在很多偏鄉的這個醫師以彰化為例我一直在彰化這個西南角的幾個鄉鎮這個醫師"},{"start":8950.293,"end":8968.928,"text":"有的可能是一家診所兩家診所醫師都已經七八十歲了那有的就是靠衛生所的醫師來支撐地方的這樣的一個醫療那我要再次的提醒就是說未來我們這個重點科別培育的公費醫師制度計畫如果取消之後"},{"start":8970.228,"end":8989.994,"text":"也許在十年後偏鄉可能就找不到一生因為我們看到現在這個兒科這個兒醫的這個主任都還要值班了台大這個兒醫的主任都還要值班了甚至我們彰化彰基的這個兒科的主任也都要值班"},{"start":8990.874,"end":9008.621,"text":"那像這樣子兒科的醫師都快找不到了也招不滿了那未來如果我們政府不再用這個制度來做這樣子公費醫生的培育的話我真的很擔心十年後可能偏鄉真的找不到醫師因為"},{"start":9009.761,"end":9026.648,"text":"而醫師他可能要集中在都會區偏鄉誰要去彰化不是那種在高山或深山的地方只是交通比較不方便只是距離都市比較偏遠一點"},{"start":9028.962,"end":9052.37,"text":"未來三區的話沒有公費醫師沒有這樣子一個公費醫師的話那偏鄉誰要去我是不是可以簡單請呂次雖然你不是負責這一部分的那我也還是請你先回應一下非常感謝秀芳委員對於我們這個議題的關心我想確實就是我們當時要辦公費培育計畫其實確實有考慮到偏鄉的需求"},{"start":9052.89,"end":9073.418,"text":"那我跟委員報告我們想我們現在目前都還在廣納各方的這個意見委員剛剛所說的這個確實你剛說集中南韓還有這一個偏向部分這個確實也是我們也是部長非常非常關心的議題那我們會來就相關的一個情形其實跟委員報告我們會來做這個相關的通盤檢討來做審慎的評估是好"},{"start":9077.707,"end":9092.789,"text":"現在是這三所學校就是我講的因為因應你們這個計畫然後去設的這個這個這個後一系結果是因為變成這個我們這個計畫結束之後這三所後一系的這個部分就沒有公費生了嘛"},{"start":9093.51,"end":9106.136,"text":"那當然就是說衛福部跟教育部這邊有去做一個協調那還是有一些困難點所以我希望就是說衛福部針對這一部分應該要再去好好的做思考我記得在2017年當時邱部長跟這個林靜儀次長他們當時還在當這個委員的時候"},{"start":9114.139,"end":9140.785,"text":"那也有特別針對這個公費醫師有做一些懲請你看 經過這樣子幾年之後你反而要將這個公費醫師我們應該是要讓這些公費醫師這個制度更完善然後所有的福利或者是所有的資源應該要更好讓這些公費醫師不會因為綁了10年之後10年到他就要趕快離開這個地方"},{"start":9142.626,"end":9164.317,"text":"應該讓他的資源或者是他能夠更多讓他覺得說我在這邊可以好好的發揮那整個薪資也還不錯讓他願意留在這邊我覺得應該要朝這個方向去進行而不是說我乾脆就把這個公費一失把它取消掉我覺得這個未來會是一個很嚴重的一個問題"},{"start":9165.758,"end":9189.339,"text":"我們這個急重男孩兒科這些都已經快找不到醫生了那你又把這個公費重點培育的這些科別的醫師又把它取消掉我覺得這個是未來一個非常大的一個問題那我也希望這個呂氏今天回去之後應該要再跟部長應該再好好的去做一個討論是不是公費醫師的這個部分重點培育的這個計畫應該還要再繼續"},{"start":9191.121,"end":9208.299,"text":"好的OK好OK我会把那个委员刚刚您的那个这个意见赶快跟部长报告部长也会做一个最好的一个的一个衡量跟判断好不好是好因为我们都希望这个偏乡的医疗跟都市的医疗大家都应该是相等的"},{"start":9208.439,"end":9225.293,"text":"當然當然不是說偏鄉的醫療會是不一樣的因為當然我們這個也是衛福部一直希望就是說能夠讓這個偏鄉的醫療大家都是都相同的接受的這個醫療資源都是相同的"},{"start":9225.773,"end":9239.485,"text":"那如果未來這樣子的話可能偏鄉找不到醫生或者是資源變少那到時候會是一個非常嚴重的一個問題所以我們現在發現問題之後我們也希望衛福部針對這一部分要趕快去做一個"},{"start":9240.606,"end":9250.456,"text":"我要非常感謝那個委員長期以來對這個議題的關心特別是對彰化還有特別委員說的西南這邊的鄉鎮這個是針對全台灣的部分我也知道西南這邊有比較不足這個部分我想我們會來審慎研議對"},{"start":9258.424,"end":9278.903,"text":"這個不是只有針對彰化彰化其實還不像一些有就是比較原鄉的那個部分原鄉的那個部分可能會更嚴重所以我現在提的就是偏鄉還有我們比較艱困的科別原本你這個計畫就是針對這樣子的一個需求那如果你今天把它取消掉的話我覺得"},{"start":9280.565,"end":9287.437,"text":"我覺得這個真的是要好好去思考一下 好不好好 謝謝 感謝秀芳委員的關心謝謝 也謝謝主席好 謝謝次長 謝謝黃委員我們現在休息"},{"start":10088.291,"end":10104.586,"text":"好 我們繼續開會接下來請林書文委來做詢問好 我們是不是請這個洪部長來 請部長林委員好"},{"start":10112.704,"end":10132.515,"text":"今天很多委員好像撿到槍一樣 馬上說到底有沒有缺10萬個移工這個事情會一朝一夕馬上就發生的事情嗎然後大家在講 講的好像是移工都源源不絕移工這個市場真的源源不絕嗎這個移工的市場全世界都在搶工"},{"start":10134.269,"end":10151.983,"text":"我們今天更應該比說是不是馬上就缺十萬個工更重要的事情要討論比現在有沒有馬上因為這一個月開放了就馬上立即缺十萬個工更重要的事情要討論的是我們的確看到了有一些現象"},{"start":10152.924,"end":10179.894,"text":"那這一現象包括說整個國家移工的制度都不是掌握在政府手上整個國家的移工政策制度全部都掌握在大家習慣都是找仲介仲介這一環對移工的生態產業還有整個移工的訓練和專業影響非常大所以所有的案件雇主要去找移工也都是找仲介也不是透過這個政府"},{"start":10182.575,"end":10208.485,"text":"所以仲介掌握的資源都比家庭多比你政府還更全面性的影響在僱主和移工之間扮演很重要的角色現在來了有這種新聞媒體上的報導有一個重症家屬逼透過仲介公司請看護工移工到看護工到僱主這個需要需求的這個"},{"start":10209.545,"end":10223.758,"text":"家中服務以後不適應然後仲介也沒有協調解決最後解除契約反國然後但是重症者這個家庭就面臨到了照顧的空窗期"},{"start":10225.134,"end":10253.713,"text":"那也希望仲介可以重新幫忙找移工可是現在仲介卻以重症個案特殊無人願意接案 且無適合人選為由消極應對 都幫人家找沒人沒人要顧這件事這樣 事情就是這樣啊重症看護的家庭沒有人要接那僱主在這種狀況裡面真的是說我到底是欲哭無淚 求助無門啊"},{"start":10255.394,"end":10271.405,"text":"那現在還有很多的移工來台灣做了幾天以後呢他說我不適應想要換新僱主但是現在很多僱主也是這樣子看護工做不到幾天就說要轉換僱主你如果不讓他轉換僱主就完蛋了如果完蛋不讓他做"},{"start":10275.424,"end":10297.033,"text":"他就把你逃走所以你也只能讓他同意他轉換雇主然後不同的仲介再引進不同的這個移工看護工來每個人都要重新適應重新教導重新學習然後大家都住不穩定因為很多移工到台灣來他辛苦所為何來啊要賺錢比較多錢啦"},{"start":10300.161,"end":10326.543,"text":"這樣在康復工大家都知道廠工跟康復工有加班薪水甚至是雙倍而且廠工勞動條件依照勞基法有保障工時短再怎麼加班都比康復工還要短然後有休假然後薪水又高大家都想要"},{"start":10327.614,"end":10346.219,"text":"跳板啦 康復工其實也很多長工把康復工申請當跳板來了以後不可以轉換僱主就要刷去工廠 賺更多 休困更多更多的所以在這種狀況我們真正的現實是這種狀況真的很多僱主 長照康復工的僱主"},{"start":10356.704,"end":10362.01,"text":"即便有看護工但是也經常要遇到這一種衝突怎麼辦"},{"start":10364.733,"end":10386.051,"text":"這就是大問題 這種問題現在你以為是重症跟輕症相互排擠而已嗎相互搶工而已嗎 不是是家庭看護工跟廠工的雇主在相互搶工這個問題更嚴重 那要怎麼辦"},{"start":10389.451,"end":10416.552,"text":"跟委員說沒有的確剛剛在委員在講的現象我們的確都有看到了那尤其這裡在修法之後其實有些現象其實有在更更嚴重的狀況這事情是我們是都看到的那我們提現在接下來包括發言書裡面我們也希望能夠把包括剛剛在講我們職聘的職聘的資源包括我們職聘中心接下來都希望把功能再做一些強化"},{"start":10417.052,"end":10435.642,"text":"職聘也一樣啊職聘也是有少了剝削那一環少了仲介那一環啊可是基本結構是家庭看護工沒有沒有像廠工一樣適用勞基法家庭看護工的薪水就遠比廠工加班的時候遠遠的還要少"},{"start":10436.582,"end":10465.457,"text":"那作為一個移工他就是要賺比較多的家庭康復工能夠給付的薪水就不及於廠工所以如果廠工的雇主特別是在COVID-19那期間連仲介假裝幫你介紹家庭康復工來解約之後同意轉換雇主之後仲介都馬上跟他一樣跟雇主完結 解約馬上送他馬上引進到工廠去"},{"start":10466.556,"end":10491.319,"text":"生產線上這種狀況這種結構怎麼處理跟文說明的確這個結構的根源這個結構的根源其實是來自現在這些相對應的照顧的制度裡面變成是其實有很多一般的家庭看護工的雇主尤其是如果他的經濟條件比較沒那麼好的可是他可能還是必須請外籍看護工"},{"start":10492.04,"end":10498.859,"text":"所以變成是這些僱主跟這個移工看護工之間這個他變成是一個好像"},{"start":10500.049,"end":10524.566,"text":"你多一點我就少一點的問題這是為什麼我們勞動部一直希望需要更多的長照資源來引入因為如果沒有辦法透過政府的長照資源更多的來引入這一個相互就它就變成是一個相互好像你多一點我就會少一點的這個結構那不管是從看護工的角度或者是從這個僱主的角度來說都會非常非常的辛苦所以這是我們一直在跟衛福部談"},{"start":10525.046,"end":10548.339,"text":"希望有更多長照資源導入的原因其實講的愛愛妹妹模模糊糊大家在講弱弱相殘因為每一個移工都是弱勢他到台灣來所為何事啊就要賺這麼多回去照顧他的家庭嘛那每一個看護工的雇主身障的家庭重症的家庭他就是弱勢當中的弱勢你說國家要承擔起長照的責任政府就沒愛就沒辦法"},{"start":10550.66,"end":10571.364,"text":"外服部也沒愛 沒辦法難道這樣子我們就讓他這樣子手段都用完了嗎所以我今天要講說我們現實的層面康務工來了又走 來了又走 很多我們的移工政策都一直著重在說引進 引進要穿進來 引進進來可是沒有遠遠不絕的康務工引進以後逃跑或是轉到工廠生產線"},{"start":10577.845,"end":10599.035,"text":"這問題永遠都沒有解決所以在這種狀況裡面而我們的康復 外籍康復早就是長照的主要的人手和人力這不是替代 這都補充台灣人都沒辦法做然後你弱勢的家庭也只請了起康復工沒有你去打那個"},{"start":10600.708,"end":10609.662,"text":"長照機構或者是請本國籍那全部都請不上去在這種狀況我們手段用清了嗎我現在要告訴你說"},{"start":10611.374,"end":10635.152,"text":"我告訴你一個狀況就是說照顧是不是一個專業照顧需不需要專業是那不同的失能的家庭的照顧有不同的需求失智者需要的可能是引導和耐心和陪伴中風患者需要的是物理復健和技巧末期的病患可能是需要臨終照顧所以這都是有專業的在這種狀況裡面我現在要講的就是說"},{"start":10639.215,"end":10662.168,"text":"我們國家還有沒有手段和方法寧的薪水比工廠更糟然後工時勞動條件更差但是仍然有誘因給外籍康復工讓他們覺得暫時寧更糟條件更差 忍耐一下未來會更好你覺得有沒有可能有這種誘因和手段"},{"start":10665.047,"end":10675.413,"text":"的確在一些國家它比方說在這過程裡面它會提供一些訓練或者是一些學習的機會讓這一些看護中訓練跟學習的機會換來的還是低報酬長工時"},{"start":10680.41,"end":10707.864,"text":"我現在不是要講這個我現在跟你講就是說以日本為例他們知道結構性的缺工如果已經是全面性的結構性的缺工他們去開發特定技能的簽證制度特定技能的簽證制度針對特定行業的對人力的補充和需求以餐飲業為例他們外食類的技能簽證分成兩種"},{"start":10709.105,"end":10733.425,"text":"一個是特定技能一號一個是特定技能二號一號跟二號的差別就是他可以吸菌可以讓你的配偶子女都跟著到日本來常住然後後來取得永久居留權你知道嗎特定技能一號就沒有"},{"start":10734.631,"end":10756.327,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面 引進特定的簽證制度不但提供他就業機會 也而且要當員工一樣對待這外籍移工 成為他們職業上的引導者透過政府各種支援的措施 包括文化適應形象管理 語言訓練 技能提升所以在這種狀況裡面 移工"},{"start":10758.669,"end":10783.331,"text":"特別是外籍看護移工如果在台灣的話他就不是短期的填充的補充缺口的人力而是我們要當他是可以培育可以發展的人才我們這裡提供的不只是就業機會未來有可能是全家攜家待眷永久居留"},{"start":10784.452,"end":10804.403,"text":"我們要把這種移工當成未來可能人才的這個概念帶到我們的長照體系裡面來把它訓練成為長照體系專業可用的可長可久的人力和人才那是不是一種誘因跟我們說我們非常願意"},{"start":10806.151,"end":10833.684,"text":"參考日本的經驗委員剛剛在講的事情就是日本的技術人力相關的制度所以他設計了讓這個技術能力包括有技能的學習 檢核包括語言的學習跟檢核但確實他這一套制度他也涉及到他是在海外的時候在母國的時候就進行這些工作所以我們其實部裡面是非常非常願意來往這個方向來做思考跟規劃的我現在要跟你講的意思是說這是結構性的因素因為大家來"},{"start":10835.202,"end":10858.61,"text":"家庭看護工的待遇 薪水 工時 勞動條件真的比廠工更壞壞都很壞這個結構因素注定了很多人來申請來當家庭看護工之後不久就要當跳板轉換到轉換到我們的工廠裡面而我們知道台灣現在是不允許自由轉換雇主"},{"start":10859.608,"end":10878.223,"text":"因為不允許自由轉換雇主所以仲介都嫁他 完結啊你跟你的老闆完結 腰疤炒 每天炒才把你雇主動不掉你早知道對雇主也沒有好處所以不如同意讓你轉換雇主所以現在現場的衝突就是這樣子這麼嚴重了"},{"start":10879.795,"end":10897.344,"text":"委員我剛才再讓我補充我們是非常非常願意跟衛福部一起來討論來思考比方說如果你是有照顧專長的技術人力就是說外籍的技術人力你有照顧專長的話是不是有機會可以進到我們的長照系統裡面擔任一些相對應的角色"},{"start":10897.964,"end":10925.56,"text":"那當然這裡面可能他會需要有語言的學習或者是一些技能的學習那在這中間我們怎麼透過公務部門的資源來去協助這些語言的學習或技術技能上面的學習讓這件事也就是說需要跟長照的體系來結合可是呢在家庭我們現在的長照制度外籍移工的看護就是到個別家庭裡面沒有什麼主管啦我講的不是主管"},{"start":10926.499,"end":10944.245,"text":"我講的不是主管我講的是技術人力因為你現在留的時間比較久的話其實你有機會可以轉成技術人力照顧一個適能的人平均要7年到10年我講的是如果他可以成為有技能的有照顧專業的技術人力的時候我們怎麼跟衛福部接下來討論在兩個機制之間有一些結合的點讓這個"},{"start":10948.767,"end":10965.177,"text":"長照的人這樣這個照顧專長的人力在長照的體系裡面也有角色有位置我們很願意來嘗試這個方向對啊所以次長你來想想看你的想法和做法你覺得可行性是怎麼樣包委員正如剛剛黃部長剛剛說我們現在會來兩部那個全力推動啦我問一下委員報告其實我們現在已經有兩個機制一個我們在去年"},{"start":10971.101,"end":10978.043,"text":"我們在福音科技大學我們現在就有一班就是從外南那邊接過來在這裡我們受兩年的訓練之後他可以在台灣待兩個三年他如果過他們都沒問題這樣我們勞動部就給他一個中階勞動力中階勞動力他如果通過之後他最主要在我們機構因為我們機構講的是我們溫柔你現在在講家庭看護工的困境你不要講到機構去沒關係"},{"start":10997.289,"end":11003.452,"text":"機構就適用勞基法啦對啦 我如果委員報告我們現在也在考慮啊我們現在在那個那裡規範家庭看護對不對我們也可以訓練訓練後伴他就可以來進入我們這裡也是中階勞動力你還會進入哪裡 進入哪裡啦進入機構啊"},{"start":11013.633,"end":11019.936,"text":"我們現在講的是說 每一個家庭康復工他如果持續成為家庭康復工 要7年到10年譬如說這7年到10年 我跟你講喔 黑股不會淋在手啦他整天都要照啦 因為沒前途沒未來信念成中階勞動力 他的薪資變成3萬喔2萬倍啦 那個是要轉換料啦"},{"start":11045.117,"end":11069.329,"text":"你們現在要求薪水多少2萬啦不是啦 我在講家庭看護工家庭看護工最低是2萬2萬 可是事實上務實面 實務面2萬有人嗎什麼2萬2現在都2、3萬啦 2、3萬可以跟廠工的薪水待遇比嗎"},{"start":11072.59,"end":11091.555,"text":"沒有啦 委員當然是這樣 根據勞動經濟學這跟你單位生產力也有關係啊結構上的問題為什麼逃跑 為什麼待不住因為在家庭看護工一天24小時 一年365天你還可以加班費給他不休息 不讓他休息"},{"start":11092.555,"end":11121.898,"text":"然後勞動條件這麼差 薪水不要說2萬 僱主給你3萬人家看他同鄉去工廠 還有加班的一個月納5萬 6萬這樣要完結嗎也就是因為剛剛你提到的這些現象所以現在的確我們是很願意再去思考一個重要的事情是這一個看起來他假設他現在是外籍的看護工他的薪資確實比較低如果他可以成為中階的技術工以後"},{"start":11122.498,"end":11146.018,"text":"那接下來在一個什麼樣子的條件下面有可能可以成為長照體系裡面的議員成為長照體系議員的時候他所可以擁有的國家的協助跟資源就會跟他現在單純你現在不要空中化大餅來我問你們啦為什麼講你空中化大餅你們國家的資源更多會進來那你短照經費今年就編不夠了啦"},{"start":11147.17,"end":11152.993,"text":"短照經費不是缺了嗎你們國家資源給外籍看護工兩種一個是勞動部的救安基金移撥出來的短照經費一個是衛福部納入的喘息計劃一年多少錢 有夠沒有未來增加80億以上免發數量表要增加多少人你經費有相對應的編列了嗎不要講新增加的"},{"start":11176.345,"end":11192.313,"text":"這在8月已經完成編列了你編列多少錢因為網路上有民眾在7月底的時候反映被通知短照服務的經費不足而在113年執行率是173%在114年的今年到5月的時候執行率是101%"},{"start":11205.454,"end":11224.277,"text":"現在短照經費全部沒了然後長照只剩下長照一年84小時跟委員說明上禮拜已經召開就安定管理會那我們補上了這個因為原本的確我們有低估所以我們把差額包括明年的部分我們把追加補"},{"start":11224.497,"end":11252.733,"text":"我現在問你是說這麼結構性的問題你說引進國家資源叫這些家庭看護工把自己培養成專業的然後技能上納入我們國家的中級技術專業人力的那麼他可以用國家更多資源國家是有多少資源啊國家資源不過就長照那84小時多少錢 長照多少錢我們現在目前"},{"start":11253.894,"end":11258.959,"text":"我們這個部分其實跟勞動部我們密切配合總共加起來是6億8600兩邊加起來6億我們本部我們一邊3.4勞動部也幫我們3.4這樣總共6億就夠了"},{"start":11272.633,"end":11283.221,"text":"6億和20幾萬的家庭康復移工用不不不 不是這樣喔我們這是擴大喘息服務喔我們這是擴大喔喘息就是給長照體系 阿我們講的是移工納入長照適用喘息所以移工用就會更早囉"},{"start":11293.189,"end":11308.138,"text":"現在移工的部分就是勞動部的短照服務啊短照服務的過去變兩頁但是我有一件報告我們那是鼓勵大家先來用我們的擴大喘息啦這個我必須要說你加起來六七頁也是很少的啦擴大喘息是六頁喔但是勞動部救援年金金現在又變五頁嘛"},{"start":11318.755,"end":11340.04,"text":"到八億喔 加起來是14億喔你的六億是普通人也在用的 不是外籍移工專用的嘛外籍移工是用多少啦沒有啦 那個擴大喘息服務就是我們家庭照顧者嘛 還有外刊啊短照服務是外刊專用的嘛"},{"start":11340.62,"end":11366.968,"text":"短照是外籍看護院當時是因為期休一希望能夠讓這個外籍看護可以有收休所以我們規劃了短照以前是一年預算才兩三億嘛三億嘛今年我剛剛講的113年執行率是173%今年到5月101了所以你才發現不足嘛所以你才追加到五六億嘛本來是三億現在是六億可能五六億嘛可是這夠嗎"},{"start":11368.248,"end":11387.534,"text":"你剛剛講說我一直跟你講結構上這個問題會造成聘僱外籍移工的家庭跟這個僱主跟移工之間很多的摩擦那個摩擦的目的是為了自由不能自由轉換僱主而去製造衝突讓他可以轉換出去"},{"start":11388.394,"end":11404.165,"text":"而這一種結構來自於薪資結構的不平等來自於勞動條件上的這個特別惡劣而你沒有辦法解決薪資結構也沒有辦法解決勞動條件的惡劣的狀況下你有沒有透過你的"},{"start":11405.186,"end":11419.322,"text":"其他的制度比如說像日本的這一種制度設計了可能就未來允許西眷來台灣永久居留類似這種狀況留住這一種看護的人力"},{"start":11420.305,"end":11437.137,"text":"然後拘留下來讓他可以忍受一時的難處然後看到未來他可以永久拘留而有一個誘因因為這個誘因只存在外籍康護工而廠工可能是門檻更高的"},{"start":11438.447,"end":11455.535,"text":"類似這樣的機制我們來設計否則你要打高空叫國家扛起長照責任失能照顧責任國家不願意一直退位然後仰賴仲介仲介控制著市場和政策"},{"start":11457.073,"end":11477.702,"text":"跟委員說明第一個我們其實現在也正在檢討我們技術人力的制度而技術人力制度的檢討其實也是正在參考日本的做法所以我們近期包括法案署裡面其實也不斷的在跟日本這邊來做交流其實就是希望能夠參考日本相關的做法因為日本的做法其實某些部分真的是值得我們參考的這是第一個"},{"start":11478.462,"end":11504.21,"text":"第二個的確因為在制度上面如果你可以成為中階的技術人力之後比方說他回去的那個年限就可以打就可以拿掉所以技術人力是可以長期的留下來的是技術人是可以想說為什麼才剛才跟委員在講到說我們很希望怎麼樣來協助我們的移工蘭嶺的移工他可以更順暢的轉成技術人力然後在在這個部分他可能會有相對應的這些權力的保障甚至資源配套更多是"},{"start":11505.15,"end":11531.747,"text":"你刚刚讲的资源就只有你们的短照还有这个传息服务这是不够的跟文说我的意思不是只有短照我刚才讲到如果今天一个照顾的技术人力的话他就可以进到国家的社福的体系里面国家的社福体系里面的资源会比他一定只能从雇主尤其是这些一般的雇主来出会来得更加的丰富国家的体系里面能够提供的就业的机会是多少啦"},{"start":11533.858,"end":11550.922,"text":"整個長照失能體系國家都退位照服務員的待遇看穩定嗎現在已經到將近上千億了我們當然知道"},{"start":11561.661,"end":11584.815,"text":"現在是造福源 你去問每個失能的家庭配到的食素是多少 遠遠少於需求啦這個就是 我們知道蔡英文總統任內把她上升到800多億賴總統任內上升到900多億這看到國家 可是你知道整個失能照顧的體系不是上千億就足夠的"},{"start":11586.096,"end":11608.899,"text":"你剛剛講到的那個結構的困境我們都是同意的所以要解這個結構的困境勢必是需要國家的資源進去導入才能夠緩解這個你剛才講包括弱弱相殘的狀況所以包括制度上面跟我說資源包括制度上面因為今天在移工的聘僱的這個體系裡面移工聘僱體系坦白說它的確是一個相對市場機制"},{"start":11610.02,"end":11622.614,"text":"可是今天在長照的資源沒有 不是市場機制你忘了家庭看護工是我們用政策硬生生的把它從勞基法適用裡面排除掉的這個不是市場機制"},{"start":11625.117,"end":11648.16,"text":"那但是需要一些國家的資源才能夠去緩解剛剛在講的那個結構的困境這個是為什麼我們在跟衛福部一直在在跟包括跟呂次長一直在談我們希望在這裡面能夠未來能夠有所突破那透過的就是透過技術人力能不能成為技術人力或者是讓技術人力相關的配套能夠更健全這部分我們也在參考日本的制度要看得到吃得到要"},{"start":11649.421,"end":11659.551,"text":"實惠而不是口惠是這樣子 希望你們回去再想一想啦先這樣子所以我最後再講一句不是在這裡問說有10萬的人很加資格是不是馬上缺10萬不是討論這個東西"},{"start":11664.716,"end":11677.083,"text":"還有比媽媽最欠六十天更重要的是英文都在欠因為這個勞動上的不公平不平等的結構如果存在的話讓你再習慣來也是這個問題啦都是這個問題啦還有不要把它依供當成永遠不絕永遠有啦"},{"start":11684.968,"end":11706.887,"text":"所以我們真的是要好好思考我們的勞動力政策在未來少子化 超高齡化我們台灣的問題也是全世界的問題真的很嚴重來 接下來請王振興委員今天是王振興委員的聖誕千秋我們祝他生日快樂"},{"start":11712.511,"end":11713.412,"text":"那就麻煩次長來 有請次長"},{"start":11733.149,"end":11748.812,"text":"王委員生日快樂謝謝因為今天這個很重要的題目透過這個就業服務法46條的修正以後引發出剛剛像我們十分委員所提到的核心問題"},{"start":11750.133,"end":11778.042,"text":"這個是大家一直面對那也透過這次的問題的呈現大家如果有機會來把相關的問題處理到一個釐清以後怎麼來做因應所以我覺得很佩服大家各位委員還有在所有官員在應對這個問題的時候所做的努力那我們也期待能夠在大家用心的處理之下能夠有機會來慢慢的脫離這個困境"},{"start":11779.142,"end":11804.845,"text":"那這邊我還是有幾個需要跟次長還有跟部裡面一起來討論的地方就是中正家庭的衝擊跟配套措施因為畢竟來講中正家庭所受到衝擊還是影響是比較立即而且是明顯那我們當初在修法的時候也擔心80歲做一個切割是不是會跟目前大家討論的這些困境"},{"start":11805.525,"end":11828.178,"text":"會有直接的關聯那我相信這個是可以看到的一些狀況那貴部也提了6個配套措施那我們就逐一的來看一下其中的兩三個裡面目前在實際的狀況上是怎麼處理的包括針對於這個國內承接的順位的最優先這也是一個配套"},{"start":11828.738,"end":11849.633,"text":"那另外針對於協調移工來源國能夠確保那個量能跟品質這個是大家非常關心的部分還有如何補足第一線為了因應這個修法導致這個人力的需求那他們的工作量或者是面對這些問題的時候如何能夠讓他們有效的來"},{"start":11850.874,"end":11876.767,"text":"面對這樣的困境 那最後是不是 除了剛剛所提到的擴編預算 支持看護家庭 包括從衛護部那邊也提供轉息服務這次也看到編類的11.8億針對這部分來做加強 這個今天就利用這個機會來跟部裡面就交 跟次長來就交一下第一個部分就是重症家庭國內承接順位的最優先"},{"start":11877.367,"end":11901.83,"text":"那我們可以從這個畫面上看到當一個重症案有這個需求的時候他有兩個可能性來取得招募的許可國外引進的部分我們等一下再談我們先看國內的承接那目前在處理上就是會把它變成一個最優先的承接順序而且是在14天裡面如果已經有"},{"start":11902.651,"end":11918.663,"text":"目前在台灣的這些移工他被釋放出來的話他可以在14天裡面就來承接當然這個14天很有可能他在媒合的時候發現這個對象不是他願意的所以他也可以有選擇權假設說他在這個7天的選擇權裡面後來沒有媒合成功"},{"start":11924.747,"end":11951.375,"text":"這個14天要怎麼算這個未來在執行上可能不同的縣市或者是中央這邊有沒有一個一定的處理模式避免到時候每個縣市覺得說我這個14天就是從一開始就是14天另外有縣市說我因為每隔7天不成功我用從第7天開始算14天這個未來避免執行上的困難或者是執行上的差異性這部分可能要等一下請次長說明一下"},{"start":11951.935,"end":11975.323,"text":"還有這個媒合率要怎麼確保因為輕症只有時間多這個是人性如果是我們的話我們也會做這些選擇那我們怎麼能夠從這個國內承接的媒合率裡面去掌握到未來如果是真的媒合率很低的話那很顯然這個部分需要再做政策上的檢討或者是一些執行上的參考"},{"start":11975.863,"end":11996.73,"text":"那另外就是說如果我們要開放中心家庭跨業比的這個承接的話那如何能夠完成這個補充訓練那當然這個過程裡面其實職聘中心的量能就非常非常的重要目前我們的職聘的中心量能有辦法來應付或者是面對這個國內承接這樣的困境或者是問題嗎次長請"},{"start":11999.051,"end":12021.345,"text":"首先跟委員報告非常謝謝委員的關心有關於重症家庭國內承接優先這個部分那一般的國內承接大概都沒有原來都是按誰按來辦理但是我們這一次特別針對重症家庭預定了一個優先所以他會依照輕重分流的角度來理解"},{"start":12022.305,"end":12045.954,"text":"一旦有國內承接的狀況有移工要在國內承接我們優先來處理重症家庭的一個媒合那這媒合大概我們就會在14天裡面來相應的做處理那剛才委員所提到技術面的問題我們會來注意那第二個部分當然就是國內媒合部分還是必須要僱主跟移工雙方面都能夠互相同意和理解才會有媒合成功"},{"start":12046.454,"end":12073.493,"text":"那這部分我們會盡力的來做相應的媒合所以媒合的頻率和次數我們會來加強然後第二個部分就有關於職聘中心也好相關的救福站的媒合的部分也好我們會來提升相關的人力來多做一些事情所以包括我們後面所講的相關的人力的部分包括衛福部那邊的照管中心包括勞動部這邊相應的人力以至於"},{"start":12074.093,"end":12091.304,"text":"到未來在外管的部分的那個簽證的部分還有未來引進之後我們地方的勞動的相應的人員有去看探視或看訪的相應的部分相關的人力我們通通在後面會去估"},{"start":12091.824,"end":12115.007,"text":"估算出來也做了一些相應的編配大概188人左右所以委員的建議我們有充分的注意到當然最終還是會取決於牢固雙方面的一個合議那在這部分裡面我們會盡量來協助大家去做完整的相應的界階盡量讓重症家庭在這一波的狀況裡面衝擊降到最低"},{"start":12115.714,"end":12144.77,"text":"好那針對14天的起算跟時效的這個過程的計算可能部裡面還是要先確認好謝謝那再過來就是有關於如果是重症案進入到招募許可的過程裡面是國外引進這個移工來協助幫忙做照顧的話那因為我們知道一個移工要進到台灣他需要有三個單位的審查包括在簽證的部分是外交部"},{"start":12145.45,"end":12170.999,"text":"那第二部分就是聘僱許可是勞動部就是貴部那拘留證是移民署所以這個是一個當然剛剛會提到為什麼我們需要仲介來協助有他一定的這個道理跟他的這個冗長的過程所以這部分想要確認就是在外館優先處理的部分有沒有跟外交部有過相關的協商或者是請他們來幫忙"},{"start":12172.319,"end":12189.311,"text":"那另外我們也知道這個工作資格其實很多種那我們目前討論的這個照顧的部分是其中的一種所以這個會不會有其他的行政措施導致變成這個簽證競合的現象所以這部分可能也要麻煩持續跟外交部這邊來做處理"},{"start":12190.649,"end":12214.489,"text":"那另外就是如果如果說依照我們現在從國外引進這個框框裡面的第三項要修正仲介評鑑的要點來引導仲介機構優先處理仲正這是一個很好的方向至少我們讓仲正的這個機構知道他們必須要針對仲正當作一個優先處理的一個對象那請問"},{"start":12215.611,"end":12223.344,"text":"要怎麼修正所謂的修正是往哪個方向修正還有目前修正的時程完備了嗎"},{"start":12224.779,"end":12245.334,"text":"跟委員報告就有關於從國外引進端第一個部分是我們跟四個來源國在相關的會議或者是溝通上都有促請他們在這一方面多於配合他們也都有答應那當然這個具體的人數會涉及到當地進來之前包括語文包括"},{"start":12245.794,"end":12272.823,"text":"相關照護技術的一個培訓的量能所以還在處理當中但是來源國大概都有表達願意配合的部分那第二部分是有關於簽證的部分我們在外館那一邊也預見可能會有一些數量的增加那這些數量的增加會增加外館同仁的負荷所以我們也提供了相應的人力的補助給外交部在外館的部分可以去做相應的處理"},{"start":12273.223,"end":12296.745,"text":"那在處理面向當然就盡量讓重症家庭能夠不會比現在的引進的時程拖延至少要維持住目前的狀況能夠提早是更好那第三個部分是在國內的部分國內的部分我們其實在家庭看護工我們是有一站式的服務在這一邊移民署的居留簽證會在那個時候就已經相應的做處理"},{"start":12297.445,"end":12313.947,"text":"所以這部分大概請委員放心至於大家也提到說仲介的部仲介是不是會有期仲折清或者是其他相應的事情所以我們在仲介這部分我們會透過仲介的評鑑來做相應的要求案處理"},{"start":12314.668,"end":12335.636,"text":"我們的仲介業的制度當然分成不同的等級那不同的等級有些一定年限是要退場的那有些他是可以有一些獎勵或者是後續免聘的機制我們在這裡面會去要求仲介業者在這中間服務重症家庭的狀況要達到一定的要求那相應的細節我們現在在規劃當中我們會盡快來處理"},{"start":12338.497,"end":12358.392,"text":"是所以如果這方面的評鑑要點有修正到一個程度可不可以提供給委員會或是我們的辦公室來做參考好謝謝那再過來就是有關於補足第一線人力這個也是一個重要的配套那我們剛剛也聽次長知道說有關於這個駐外這個使館的簽證的僱員會增加10名"},{"start":12360.733,"end":12379.405,"text":"包括印尼有6名 越南3名 菲律賓1名當然可能還需要的話事實再來做調整其他的包括各縣市的長照管理中心還有事務中心分別增加一共原有的是188名另外我們也注意到為了要提升地方的審查"},{"start":12380.846,"end":12409.851,"text":"的這個諮詢他設立了一個叫做查查諮詢督導員這個督導員目前是有為了這個法新增了補助地方政府90名這樣的人力那我們也知道這樣的人力其實是很辛苦因為他要到現場去確認去了解我們進來這個勞工他在工作性質有沒有偏離他當初要看護的這個需求那如果有違規的話當然就需要做後續的處理"},{"start":12410.271,"end":12433.527,"text":"那我們擔心的就是如果真的擴增到這麼多的申請案的話那我們這樣的人力到時候假設因應不足的話還有沒有其他的配套措施這一部分跟委員報告相應的部分因為剛才其實也很多委員關切這10萬或者是多少人那我們目前觀察的趨勢是這個案子基本上第一週跟第二週大概"},{"start":12434.487,"end":12458.553,"text":"第二週會比第一週成長了兩倍那未來整個的趨勢大概一定會跟目前的中正家庭會受到一些影響那未來這有關於相關的配套措施我們都在隨時觀察相應的數據在滾動檢討當中人不夠我們就會盡量去提供更衝突的人力錢不夠我們就會盡量在預算方面再去做相應的處理這邊請委員放心"},{"start":12459.393,"end":12486.684,"text":"是的我相信如果是有這個預算需求的話應該所有委員都會努力的來促成那再過來就是有兩個建議事項也請部理次長這邊參考一下因為我們剛剛也聽到蘇文委員非常擔心我們從這個報表裡面可以看得出來在114年的6月2號重現的就是身心障礙者如果依照他的這個整體的身心障礙者來看有123萬"},{"start":12488.385,"end":12513.285,"text":"那如果把這個急重度跟重度加進來也有34萬左右這個未來其實都是很潛在需要接受照顧的這一群那我們現在初估是10萬嘛那當然跟衛護部這邊也有很密切的合作如何能夠讓這個身心障礙者能夠得到大家共同的支持之下讓他們的這個生活家庭的這些負擔可以有效的減輕"},{"start":12514.386,"end":12536.513,"text":"所以根據未來這樣的需求也希望兩個部會能夠持續的密切合作針對於不管是長照3.0以後帶來這些影響幫忙還有針對這個就業扶法修正以後帶來的衝擊影響都能夠持續的來做相關的這些討論還有互相的合作"},{"start":12537.173,"end":12556.3,"text":"那另外就是有關於其實大家很擔心這些重症的家庭他們為了要讓這些服務人力可以到位那他需要包括相關的這個移工的這個就業安定費的這個部分"},{"start":12556.92,"end":12575.928,"text":"那有沒有機會請部長再跟請部長再跟大家討論看看能不能停徵就重症家庭申請移工的就業安定會這方面的這些帶來的衝擊這種費用我想如果能夠針對重症家庭提供相關這樣的這個服務內容的話對這些家庭來講應該是有"},{"start":12582.07,"end":12600.436,"text":"很感心因為他要照顧這個重症的家人已經非常非常的辛苦如果能夠有這樣的這個處置的話相信對他們是有很大的一個安心感最後就是希望能夠老公部所提出的這些跨部會協商方案都能夠要落實那也希望"},{"start":12601.056,"end":12617.392,"text":"我們知道今天在討論重症那其他都是剛剛部長也提到就是用一般的處理方式所以未來針對這個這麼越來越多元的需求量能越來越大的需求之下怎麼來一併的評估因應的這些需要性"},{"start":12618.032,"end":12646.659,"text":"那最後也真的是希望能夠投入資源給重症家庭有十足的幫助那這部分再麻煩市長報告第一個部分就是有關於國內的生醫障礙者超過100萬那我們其實在高齡化的社會已經來臨所以我們對很多失能的長者或生醫障礙的朋友其實是需要做更多的照顧其實國內整體的政策會從長照2.0走到長照3.0這部分是我們國內整體照顧的主力"},{"start":12647.219,"end":12665.136,"text":"那有一部分會是在進入到家庭裡面是由外刊的部分來做相應的處理那這邊有剛才包括王委員林委員很多委員有指教結構性的問題我們會跟衛福部再來做仔細的盤點參考日本的經驗來做對接這第一個部分要跟委員報告"},{"start":12665.837,"end":12686.028,"text":"然後第二部分是有關於就業安定費的部分就業安定費當時的理解是為了讓使用者付費然後能夠避免影響到國內的勞動條件所以就業安定費收來的就業安定基金才會用在促進國民就業提升勞工福祉還有跨國勞動力事務管理這幾個主要的面向"},{"start":12686.848,"end":12713.813,"text":"以低收或中低收這些經濟弱勢的家庭目前都是免收就業安定費的大概我們估計相關統計大概有1.2萬至於說未來因應這樣一個修法的趨勢還有未來就業安定費整體的檢討我們會跟整體的制度面再來一起做一些細部的討論那這邊委員的意見我們會把它納入討論的內容和參考謝謝委員"},{"start":12715.993,"end":12724.418,"text":"好非常感謝次長的這個部分給我們的回應那也謝謝主席讓我能夠充分的發言感謝謝謝"},{"start":12728.936,"end":12752.783,"text":"好 謝謝王委員 謝謝次長 再次祝王委員生日快樂欣賞吃成 身體健康 烏如東來 瘦比南山把你的喜宴 把你的生日用分享給大家 給大家都快樂接下來請曾振琴委員 曾振琴委員不在楊瓊瑜委員 楊瓊瑜委員 不在蔡議員 蔡議員 不在"},{"start":12754.844,"end":12762.854,"text":"麻煩劉建國召委發言好 謝謝主席有請次長有請次長"},{"start":12772.133,"end":12795.487,"text":"我來順延次長最後剛剛回答我來順延剛剛這個崔巡次長最後的一段話你最後那段話如果記得清楚應該叫做台灣有將近100多萬個身心障礙者的家庭這個家庭裡面小英的2.0一直到賴總統即將要進度到3.0那也包含"},{"start":12796.167,"end":12812.784,"text":"也包含外籍看護工在做整體的台灣的整個這個長期照顧的體系的一環就包容在這一塊跟這一塊嘛我應該可能文字上有些落差啦那基本上意思應該是這個樣子嘛對不對所以應該講說開宗明義就是說台灣的長期照顧"},{"start":12818.209,"end":12846.438,"text":"被照顧的對象長期被照顧的對象那基本上基本上外籍看護工也就是在這一個範疇裡面非常需要的一個長期照顧的人力嘛沒有錯嘛對不對好那我剛剛在私底下部長沒有離開之前可能部長在因為一件事情啦但我有跟次長也有跟照護士的司長來做一個討論看護這兩個字的定義是什麼"},{"start":12847.935,"end":12872.447,"text":"就以勞動部看待看護 解釋看護用最簡單的方式去定義看護的工作內容是什麼就協助失能者相關的日常照顧協助失能者相關的日常照顧嘛 對不對所以有失能者三個字嘛 對那如果看護工"},{"start":12873.629,"end":12893.353,"text":"沒有針對失燈者去照顧正常的對象 有沒有違法理論上是不行的所以我們以前最早的時候看護工去幫忙其他的家人洗衣服煮飯都是我們認為是愉悅的工作的方法幫他洗衣煮飯 他的對象"},{"start":12898.354,"end":12914.686,"text":"他的對象應該限於失能者限於失能者這樣解釋又怪怪的也就是說看護工照理講不管他照顧對象與否他都不應該去做洗衣煮飯的事情嘛應該是這麼解釋才對嘛還是可以"},{"start":12915.458,"end":12930.085,"text":"因為他講日常生活照護因為我們的失能者有些可能是獨居的有些可能是 所以這個部分就會去看原則上我們是希望以失能者的需求滿足為主那不急於其他的家人"},{"start":12931.381,"end":12958.153,"text":"所以話又講回來就是說對私人者的照顧可能我們的這個日常照顧的範圍我們可以擴大一些去做一些處理對不對在認定上勞動部是覺得這是延伸也沒有多大問題但是我們有分得很細節你自己講的第一個外國人受聘僱於從事本法第46條第9款規定之工作其工作內容如下"},{"start":12959.232,"end":12974.009,"text":"第一個家庭幫庸工作在家庭從事房舍清理食物烹調家庭成員起居照料或其他與家事服務有相關嘛這個是家庭幫庸工作的範圍定酬嘛對不對好那第二個"},{"start":12974.83,"end":13003.982,"text":"就看護囉 那看護又分做機構看護跟家庭看護喔對 他的前提照顧對象就正如市長所講的都是失能者嘛 對不對好 那問題來了啊46條46條修正之後我們的外籍看護工照顧對象就沒有所謂失能者就沒有全部focus在一個失能者的在那個前提了嘛 對不對那這樣顯然只有修那一條 這條要不要修"},{"start":13005.555,"end":13016.815,"text":"那一條修了 現在要執行的這一條當然要不修那人民要如何去看待你的法律的明確性然後要如何去遵守你的就業法所有的條文"},{"start":13018.777,"end":13039.065,"text":"怎麼去看待46條我們的理解因為46條增加不叫做你們理解你可能要很正確的說明他還是對照顧的對象寫到被看護者四個字所以基本上面只是被看護者的資格條件做一些相應的處理所以我們基本上面還是不會認為這個會外溢到非被看護者的範圍"},{"start":13044.938,"end":13068.278,"text":"市長你應該了解我講的意思但是你打呼我這樣是不對的喔今天是一個不是私人者對象他提出這個外籍勧奴的申請外籍移工的申請嘛對不對那我的前提就不是私人者我已經提出申請了那我只是超過80歲那你必須依照46條修正完之後你必須要接受我的申請嘛"},{"start":13069.807,"end":13077.13,"text":"那跟你在第四條針對看護的定義實際工作內容就已經衝突跟違背了啊"},{"start":13078.293,"end":13103.712,"text":"因為46條那邊大院的修法是把它寫成80歲以上或者是70歲癌症二期以上都把它等同於被看護者所以我們從被看護者的角度上來看依照大院的法律我們就是只能做這樣一個相應這個法律是立法院通過沒有錯啦但是立法院通過大院通過的80歲以上它只是寫80歲以上對不對因為它寫80歲以上被看護者"},{"start":13105.011,"end":13128.589,"text":"他有寫80歲以上被看護者他只是說免評84量表怎麼認定他是80歲以上的看護者那個條文讀起來會這樣所以有一些NGO團體或專家學者也在指教說這樣子是不是彼此之間會有一些衝突因為80歲以上其實事實上就是衝突啊事實上就是衝突啊"},{"start":13129.58,"end":13153.462,"text":"但是對我們行政機關依法行政的角度上來看我們還是會盡量在法律許可的範圍裡面把它做一個相應的降低它的衝擊和安排市長你先等一下我請市長 長照市的市長你現在在詳讀是不是還是在看手機在研究法規是針對我們剛剛討論這事情的法規嗎"},{"start":13157.043,"end":13160.61,"text":"是喔 次長你作證喔等一下手機打開不是你就"},{"start":13164.165,"end":13192.244,"text":"長期照顧長期照顧的對象可不可以簡單說明一下在你小管的長期照顧服務法的定義我們的長服務法裡面規範的就是預期他未來或者是現在就是整個達到半年六個月以上的一個需要協助他生活無法自理的失能的一個狀態身體心理就是半個月六個月以上自己沒有辦法自理嘛需要他能來協助照顧嘛對不對"},{"start":13194.266,"end":13201.903,"text":"這是很清楚嘛你們對康祿的定義在你們的長照體系他的工作內容照顧的對象"},{"start":13203.597,"end":13231.443,"text":"應該是這麼說這個看護的字整個源起是從就業服務法這邊來的那所以在常服法裡面對於有一條的名詞定義裡面就是有把這個所謂的這個看護也引進進來所以你們這邊有一個叫做第三條的第八項個人看護者只以個人身份受雇"},{"start":13233.079,"end":13260.53,"text":"與失能者家庭從事看護工作嘛 對不對所以就很清楚了嘛這個是從引舊輔法的一些文字過來的所以我要表達就是說不管你在長照輔法的第三條不管你在這個就業輔法第四條到大院在修正後的第46條照例講都不應該違背你們定義的看護的工作看護的對象啊"},{"start":13265.029,"end":13266.468,"text":"阿現在有沒有違背請答覆我"},{"start":13269.936,"end":13297.563,"text":"因為我們一直在擔心就是會排擠到真正你必須要照顧到的重度的這些失能者 對不對就陳土次長所講的100多萬個這些身心障礙者的對象是我們擴大的長照體系包含外籍看護我們都納入在其中所以我們就是要針對身心障礙者除此之外還有6個月以上身心自己無法治理的對象"},{"start":13299.249,"end":13316.903,"text":"都很清楚嘛我相信兩個法律基本上都在談論這個事情嘛開宗民義內容實際執行都是這個樣子嘛但一個就有法4、6條去修那段話之後全部通通辯解了啊全部通通衝突了啊"},{"start":13317.751,"end":13343.408,"text":"所以勞動部當時在46條修法的時候其實我們是希望再更多的討論那是不是有一些其他相對的可以更緩和然後能夠兼顧各方的意見的版本但是遺憾的到最後通過的版本還是目前的狀況我現在只是要提醒你喔我是要提醒你我沒有要求你去釋憲啦照理講你是應該勞動部要發動去釋憲你不去釋憲你會出什麼問題連衛護部你都會遭遇到問題"},{"start":13347.83,"end":13375.431,"text":"如果80歲以上 免80量表然後是一個身心都非常健康的長輩他都可以來申請外籍看護工那我是80歲以上的一個長輩我身心健康 我能不能申請長照2.0你要不要跟我平 你為什麼可以跟我平"},{"start":13378.615,"end":13393.548,"text":"我申請外國對象免評我臺灣 我自己申請臺灣的造福源你要給我評什麼啊你給我評不會過啊 對不對啊你這位夫妻 請外籍公公你不要給我評 會過啊"},{"start":13397.728,"end":13405.19,"text":"我告訴大家有意思嗎 一個政府一個體制的一個勞動部你針對外籍的香港人 也是你照顧台灣的經濟照顧的對象一個有效部 照護師專門主觀長照2.0 也是要照顧身體心理超過6個月以上無法治理的這些對象嘛 對不對 我們都很清楚"},{"start":13418.806,"end":13444.863,"text":"就是陳儒次長 我是FOX次長回答王委員最後那段話這麼廣大 龐大的一個照護體系當然就是包含本級的照護員包含外級看護工嘛但是為什麼這兩個照顧對象認定審查需求不盡相同這個不叫分流這叫亂流"},{"start":13449.767,"end":13475.107,"text":"對不對 為什麼就你逼我 我今天是一個健康的80歲以上長者我要來申請台灣的長照2.0 不行你不可以做對不對 但是我可以去申請外籍看護工這其實你再問一問我就不提去做了啦 但是我不知道"},{"start":13476.465,"end":13482.937,"text":"你如果沒辦法就這樣在執行上一定就會有很大的衝突 矛盾"},{"start":13484.669,"end":13506.163,"text":"怎麼政府會有這種兩條線的在處理我們真正的要照顧到了長照的需求者的對象那現在去擴大免評的他可能就是健康也要健康的這些對象除此之外這是另外一件事情嘛對不對但是我們真的很擔心我們真的很擔心真正需要被照顧的身體心理長期無法治理的對象"},{"start":13507.043,"end":13526.195,"text":"反而出了問題嘛然後也因為台灣是講人權的國家所以這個剛剛很多委員的比喻我就不再贅述了嘛這是另外一個政治問題喔但是我想以法律的明確性以法律的定義以看護的這個實際上的工作內容"},{"start":13528.144,"end":13538.292,"text":"你們兩部是不是要不要坐下來好好討論不能說大院通過的法律之前有大院通過的法律是自愛難行啊"},{"start":13539.5,"end":13564.793,"text":"沒有執行的啊謝謝委員的指教 委員的意見我們都非常的認同但是因為現階段而言所以我們才必須要花七個月的時間跟衛福部大家充分的在見面去做處理在有限的時間底下我們先盡量不要讓重症家庭的需求受到排擠那至於其他的部分我們跟衛福部這部分在未來長照3.0其實他們跟"},{"start":13565.433,"end":13586.181,"text":"我們在很多的界面上剛才呂次也有特別提到在很多界面上我們有過一些相應的處理包括這些中間家庭的空窗期長照的機制和資源也都可以進來我們會持續去做相應的處理至於剛才委員講的法律結構的問題容我們再來思考看未來該怎麼去做相應的處理"},{"start":13586.661,"end":13606.252,"text":"好了一個月可以吧一個月可以應該不用一個月了這個講就已經這麼清楚了一個禮拜內一個禮拜內你是不是針對我提出的問題你要看怎麼去做應應還有一些相關的一些調整還是該有一些必須要的作為"},{"start":13607.572,"end":13629.344,"text":"然後提供給委員會做參考啦好不好是 關委員是不是給我們一個月啦因為部長不在嘛我答應他一個禮拜我也不知我沒有辦法掌握部長這個禮拜完整的行程他就不在你就可以答應了他在就不用你答應啊你就很奇怪你講回答我之後會怪怪的我都一直順著你的講法一直講下來兩個星期啦兩個星期啦OK啦好 謝謝主席"},{"start":13636.079,"end":13652.015,"text":"好 謝謝劉靜雲委員的發言 謝謝次長的回應 下一位我們請陳穎委員發言稍微就這樣走了嗎"},{"start":13656.974,"end":13672.94,"text":"謝謝主席我先會議詢問一下您可以先請坐是這樣我們最近其實立法院加檢都有一些同仁做聽力測驗的時候其實耳朵聽力有些受損"},{"start":13673.9,"end":13700.559,"text":"那聽力受損呢其實並不是說對於這個聲音大小聲聽不見的不是這樣而是對於這種高頻或低頻好特定這些頻率的這個聲音會聽不清楚聽得到聲音但聽不清楚那當然這個長期有跟在處於這種噪音或者是那種就很大聲的這種環境是有關係的"},{"start":13702.119,"end":13731.432,"text":"那所以我要在這邊也替大家爭取一下我們這個健康的權益因為畢竟我們未還掌管這個監督勞動部衛福部跟環境部那重點是這個勞工申請職災如果真的說因為工作環境的關係聽力受損那鑑定之後我們還可以申請職災但是大部分現場是公務人員還有我們這種公職人員是沒有這種待遇的"},{"start":13732.532,"end":13759.542,"text":"那因為我們雖然立法院總務處幫我們設了那個分貝的那個測試的那個東西但是我覺得我也不是很確定說這個這個角度我們在執行是不是我們會看那邊還是看哪邊但是那個數字他就算超標了也不會逼也不會叫所以講話的人就不會有就不會控制那我要提的是"},{"start":13760.382,"end":13788.248,"text":"在人在70分貝就長期大概10分鐘連續處於這個70分貝以上的這個你會覺得心情很煩躁常常心情煩躁可能這個未來憂鬱症躁鬱症點點點可能都會跑出來再來還有些立委真的聲音很大常常超過80分貝那這個真的就是對聽力會直接造成損害所以這個部分"},{"start":13790.014,"end":13808.385,"text":"你們我不是開玩笑我真的建議大家年紀也有了做聽力測驗特別這個音頻高頻低頻到底聽不聽得到大家真的要去檢查一下那這個部分我想身為這個未還委員會的委員我們沒有辦法去要求就是說那個委員的音量"},{"start":13809.608,"end":13832.902,"text":"在每一次質詢都要控制在這個70分貝以下但是我們有因控啊因控在外面你坐在那邊你看得到那個分貝的數字嗎你如果看不到那我們可能也是要跟總務講一下看看要怎麼樣讓你隨時掌控這個數字因為你們坐在這邊是整天連續幾個小時耶我這樣講有沒有道理"},{"start":13834.628,"end":13863.688,"text":"對啊在座各位都是公務人員你們是不能申請這種職災的賠償我先把醜話講在前頭我剛查了一下法規那個意外死亡有所以這個部分我想起碼這是未還委員會我們應該要以身作則第一個這個側分貝的東西看這個位置是不是能夠讓大家很清楚特別是在講話的人"},{"start":13864.528,"end":13881.408,"text":"那最好超標的時候他會逼會叫提醒說一定要小聲一點因為除了很大聲以外講話時間也不會控制啊還要看心情你管了一下搞不好又吵起來會更大聲更久所以我想我真的"},{"start":13882.789,"end":13908.013,"text":"觀察很久也忍耐很久了我覺得為了大家聽力的健康請我們胃環委員會以身作則那當擔任主席擔任召委的人也可以對於這個我們質詢的環境這個噪音音量可以有所掌控我想做這樣沉痛的呼籲跟建議好謝謝主席你要回應一下嗎"},{"start":13912.058,"end":13925.776,"text":"謝謝陳燕委員剛剛的引重心長給大家的提示因為剛好我們召委不在我會把您的意見充分的反映給他做參考跟次長一樣主席可以做才事"},{"start":13926.457,"end":13953.695,"text":"是 對不過剛剛建議到說如果它的音量或者是CO2的濃度超過到一定的標準而且是損害到健康的話我們可以洽請秘書處可以反映說是不是有其他的機制可以讓現場的人知道我們所處的環境裡面應該要做哪一些我想主席跟我就在這裡具體建議了我們這個部分一定要來做改善跟控管"},{"start":13954.395,"end":13956.777,"text":"好那謝謝那主席我要麻煩請這個我們勞動部次長好請陳次長委員好"},{"start":13964.324,"end":13989.178,"text":"市長好 在這次丹納市颱風造成南部地區發生嚴重的災情很多的台南沿海地區的鄉親們屋頂都被吹走了其實看了也是讓人家覺得很揪心很同情我知道說你們勞動部也成立了四個災後防護服務站"},{"start":13990.066,"end":14014.508,"text":"以及這個宣導團那部長在7月26號的時候也有去現場去關心也制正了一些宣導品那本席也給予這個勞動部的同仁予以肯定但是呢在這個災後防護它不是兒戲我們要用很嚴肅的這個態度來面對它一言一行都會受到我們這個"},{"start":14016.409,"end":14034.685,"text":"全國同胞的嚴格檢定特別是災區的鄉親們我想要先請教一下次長這次的防護你們好像比較偏重在實棉粉塵的部分除了N95口罩以外你們還有提供什麼防護物資嗎"},{"start":14039.682,"end":14053.51,"text":"跟委員報告 除了那個N95口罩 我們還有護目鏡還有防護手套 還有防護衣你們還有一個太空包 我們是裝在防護包裡面"},{"start":14057.99,"end":14078.63,"text":"所以你不叫太空包那個叫防護包是嗎那個是裝實名的是太空袋我們俗稱稱為太空包太空袋那個是袋子所以我講太空袋太空包防護包你們都聽得懂都是一樣的東西不一樣防護包是給個人的好那就是那個叫什麼太空"},{"start":14082.705,"end":14100.021,"text":"你們去裝那些拆下來拆下來石棉瓦是放在太空包那沒有錯那我剛一開始就沒有講錯啊對啊那你幹嘛生出那麼多名詞來"},{"start":14102.028,"end":14114.938,"text":"好 那次長我們再看一下這個N95口罩其實要能夠就是密合才有這個防護的效果那你們去輔導同仁有教導民眾如何佩戴嗎"},{"start":14118.615,"end":14141.54,"text":"跟委員報告因為在我們的這個宣導品裡面是有那如果說影片的話我們在網路上指南索官網上也有這個配戴這個N95口罩的一個示範的影片因為我知道部長也有去示範那請問一下部長鬍子這麼濃密戴N95口罩是戴得老的嗎"},{"start":14147.792,"end":14170.477,"text":"基本上那個跟委員報告N95我們買的是那個3M的基本上這個佩戴的話它是符合一般人的一個臉型所以部長算一般人嗎我提這個我也是很認真的提出這樣的問題因為很多人他們會有"},{"start":14172.106,"end":14194.737,"text":"鬍子嗎 會留鬍子有的是上面八字鬍 有的是下面烙塞鬍烙塞鬍應該是面積更大吧那你們遇到這樣的狀況的時候在宣導上是不是也要做一些特別的處理因為我的疑問是這樣到底戴不戴得牢 如果沒有問題你就跟我說沒有問題就好了"},{"start":14196.621,"end":14212.848,"text":"是 它這個跟尾巴它是有一個後面有一個豎影帶基本上戴上去的話我們測試來講就是你在呼吸的時候不要吸到外面的空氣從旁邊進來基本上它就是有比較一般性的測試所以有鬍子是有幫助的"},{"start":14213.368,"end":14235.675,"text":"因為空間 空氣可能會比較多但是因為我們接下來我們現在在討論失眠啦所以我現在提出這個問題是很嚴肅的問題嘛那畢竟就是說就是說你看處理這個到要處理這個失眠的這些廢棄物我們都需要用到N95的口罩了啊所以戴的勞是很要戴勞是很重要的"},{"start":14236.195,"end":14261.149,"text":"那如果說真的有隔離到失眠失眠纖維它就會吸附在口罩的這個罩體上所以民眾取下來的時候會不會沾在手上然後再間接進入人體有沒有這樣的可能性跟委員報告失眠的危害主要是吸入所以這個口罩如果它當天使用完的話我們是建議要拋棄"},{"start":14264.983,"end":14293.724,"text":"如果手上有接觸到的話那現在的宣導的我們的衛教裡面也是希望要洗手把它洗乾淨因為我現在講的每個環節其實都有可能民眾都會吸入這些纖維所以我提到的我也希望你們能夠針對我的問題來做實質的回答你們應該有提供這個食物上有用的資訊例如說身體皮膚"},{"start":14295.065,"end":14317.71,"text":"衣服上也有可能都有食棉纖維當地又停水停電 洗澡是不方便的如何有效的解決這個食棉暴露的問題我們應該要更專業才是這邊我們來看一張這張圖在食棉放大之後 食棉瓦放大之後它就是無數根的這個鋼針"},{"start":14320.21,"end":14347.098,"text":"看起來很恐怖那這些失眠纖維被吸入我們這個人體之後呢這些鋼針呢就會刺入肺泡然後造成慢性發炎潛伏期大概15年到35年左右但通常等到確診的時候差不多都是晚期必死無疑了那你再看一下這張照片我們看一下這個勞動部的人全副武裝"},{"start":14348.24,"end":14375.568,"text":"但是呢 中間的民眾毫無防護那你們不是要去做宣導嗎那這種場景是很奇怪的啊好 到底說這樣子的這個輔導防護你們覺得有達到效果嗎你們就請給別人看 別人等到死這樣沒關係這個我們再來看接下來這張照片"},{"start":14377.225,"end":14401.725,"text":"石棉瓦 堆積的場地有人戴口罩 有人沒有戴底下還有一支大鐵錘表示呢 就是說這是破碎用的工具嘛那難道不是應該就是說要拉起這個封鎖線嘛要稍微隔離一下啊 也都沒有啊然後呢 我另外我再講一下剛剛講那個太空包"},{"start":14402.816,"end":14416.962,"text":"太空包我認為根本就不適合拿來裝這些石棉的廢棄物因為體積的關係你的太空包就這麼大而已然後你必須要先集穗"},{"start":14418.303,"end":14438.971,"text":"好 然後去毀損這些石棉瓦讓它變小一點之後然後再放進去嘛那這個積碎這個過程你就會造成這個石棉瓦纖維就會易散啊所以這個是你們要未來要去檢討思考的每個人都在那邊敲敲打打這個是 這反而是很不好的"},{"start":14441.371,"end":14462.397,"text":"我想這樣子的這個作業環境除了就是說勞工很危險之外附近的人也會遭受到暴露特別是我要講的是你們安研所的人都是專門在負責這些勞工安全衛生的研究跟宣導還有包括你們勞動部重建中心的這些同仁"},{"start":14463.337,"end":14485.075,"text":"難道這些都沒有具備這些常識嗎好 這些防護的這些常識應該都是他們要最清楚比其他人更清楚才是啊結果是做這樣的示範那我還想問一下就是說你們勞動部的安嚴所有沒有去做失眠濃度的檢測 有沒有"},{"start":14487.987,"end":14508.147,"text":"有做嗎目前是跟那個 我們內部已經跟研究所談好了就是外界在關心說這一次的一個在這個現場的一個暴露情形所以我們研究所已經準備開始要進行了所以現在才準備開始進行前面那個敲敲打打的去搜的那個都來不及了"},{"start":14512.333,"end":14533.203,"text":"8月6號 我們自己的勞檢機構也有派員到現場一起做採樣沒關係 反正你們已經啟動了不管來不來得及 總是比沒有好這一次的實棉暴露高風險的事件有專業SENS的單位 他們一定會去做研究把相關作業的勞工名單清澈 都建立起來"},{"start":14533.703,"end":14547.096,"text":"就是說萬一將來有人得到這個肩皮細胞癌的時候才可以得到應有的補償你才有的追蹤嘛所以我想要請教一下就是說我們剛剛看了幾張照片這些人有沒有造冊"},{"start":14550.842,"end":14575.24,"text":"各位報告我們現在跟那個微服部也討論過了如果是涉及到這個營造業者業者的話他名單未來我們會送給我們我們會到我們的勞保局那邊我講的不是這些營造業者是這些穿制服不是你們的人嗎看前面幾張照片這些穿那個背心的啊"},{"start":14576.963,"end":14583.649,"text":"那是我們的輔導員他們有沒有有 名車我們也有就要好好的追蹤"},{"start":14585.222,"end":14608.491,"text":"好那我們再看那個簡報6的部分這個右邊呢是環境部棚部長在風災後他們受損的這個石棉瓦的暫時放置那為了避免這個石棉瓦的纖維易散所以他們用帆布先整個蓋起來這個專業程度就立判高下啦"},{"start":14609.512,"end":14625.271,"text":"他們就沒有用那個太空包啦所以在這張照片比較起來這個環境部就是勝這看起來比較專業那我想這一次你們這一次就是說"},{"start":14626.252,"end":14650.135,"text":"我的形容叫做 我不認為這個叫做有以身作則反正你們這次去做輔導那除了好像比較偏重在這個失眠以外像其他的跌倒 踩踏 切割 穿刺 滑倒高架作業墜落都沒有看到這個災後防護我想請教一下次長你們有沒有統計這一次的這個服務及輔導的成效"},{"start":14652.065,"end":14676.844,"text":"報委員謝謝委員苦民所苦有關於實免法這部分環境部第一時間在台南跟嘉義都設置了堆置場但是相應的拆除的工作在一開始的現場因為有大概三萬棟左右的房屋屋頂先受損所以大家剛開始的時候是蓋房部然後下面的實免會有一些問題所以勞動部紅部長第一時間就要求"},{"start":14677.624,"end":14695.724,"text":"指安署的副署長下去前進指揮所然後設了四個服務站相關的輔導團先備制了一些物資讓大家緊急的用但是實際上真的實棉拆除是一個專業的工作那這部分未來應該目前我們跟環保署大家在處理當中應該有專業的"},{"start":14697.966,"end":14720.393,"text":"業者來做處理那相關的從業人員中間有接觸到這一些實名軌跡的我們都會把它造冊來追蹤相應的一些後續的注意那至於說其他的部分當然主要會是在剛開始的時候疫情期間是在最早的時候爬上爬下屋頂會不會有一些墜落的問題所以後來相關的屋頂的"},{"start":14722.714,"end":14744.335,"text":"相应的处理重建中心是请国内的相关的营造业者以一环积极的方式用公办的方式去做相应的协助那在相关的处理当做过程里面包括应价的搭设各方面都会都有跟相关的重建人员做一些说明和处理那至于刚才委员所讲的数据的部分我们会后再来做统整给委员"},{"start":14745.455,"end":14766.348,"text":"好那就是你們那個成果數據再麻煩給我們辦公室那另外就是說我快速來問一下我也我覺得蠻疑惑就是說那難道就是說只有這個台南有防護站然後雲林嘉義跟高雄他們都沒有是不是是沒有防護的必要"},{"start":14768.348,"end":14794.574,"text":"這邊因為實棉是早期的產品那洪部長在有指示研究所的唯平主要去做實棉濃度的處理這是第一件事那第二個部分就是說不好意思那個災後防護不會只有實棉我前面講實棉我後面已經開始講到那個啦跌倒踩踏點點點等等的那個很多很多"},{"start":14796.532,"end":14811.943,"text":"這種華島高架作業墜落的這種災後防護了這邊我們在相應的措施上會再來注意所以現在目前雲林嘉義高雄都沒有嗎都有我們都有我們有些是透過你們有去台東嗎台東啊台東有去嗎就沒有嗎"},{"start":14820.529,"end":14843.218,"text":"我才去一個像學校棒球場牛棚屋頂整個吹破那個到時候也是會有可能那種就是高架墜落這種作業的問題也是會有啊我是提醒你們稍微注意評估一下啦那這樣來說如果再有類似的風災勞動部會比照這一次就是說再去現場提供這個災後防護的輔導嗎未來都會吧"},{"start":14846.124,"end":14867.481,"text":"好 那那個就是說因為以前是沒有看過你們有這樣的服務雖然是說災後過了一段好一段時間才去但是就是說還是要給你們肯定啦但我希望這個未來期程可能要就是說要加速要加速那最後我再提醒勞動部就是說我們要去輔導民眾除了說專業要足夠"},{"start":14870.885,"end":14891.957,"text":"我覺得跟在地災民感同身受設身處地的去服務這個也是要很注意不是說我們穿著背心就代表專業要用心認真相信民眾就會有感提供服務的人員一定要有訓練同時還要有專業才可以提供更好的服務"},{"start":14892.717,"end":14917.684,"text":"不要說只是說只是去送東西然後沒有考慮說民眾會不會用到可以用多久我想這樣的服務很快就不會受到就會人家會起反感啦所以我想這個這些細節我在這邊提醒要請你們要重視好謝謝委員有關於相關的細節的部分我們會把它RAID得更清楚謝謝委員的指點我們將來在相關的部分再把它做得更完整好謝謝"},{"start":14924.693,"end":14935.68,"text":"好 謝謝 那本次會議詢討全部結束委員盧憲一 楊耀 陳冠廷 徐欣穎 何清淳所提書面質詢 帝都紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":14937.558,"end":14960.021,"text":"現在做一下決定 第一報告其詢問完畢 第二委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求其限責 從其所定那上午議程到此結束 現在休息下午兩點在本會議室繼續審查病人自主權利法部門條文修正草案等五案好 現在休息"},{"start":14969.48,"end":14976.101,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":18733.364,"end":18733.713,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":20002.901,"end":20015.43,"text":"現在開會本日會議議程繼續審查委員分別凝聚病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案等我案現在介紹在場委員及列席官員我們第一位是陳昭之陳委員"},{"start":20018.137,"end":20036.759,"text":"第二位是王正旭王委員初喜官員是我們政務次長呂健德醫事司司長劉月平法規會參事陳信成心理健康師副司長鄭淑欣護理及健康照護師副司長陳清梅"},{"start":20038.668,"end":20063.008,"text":"長照師專門委員王玲玲還有中央健保署專門委員呂之華國健署檢任計政謝沛君還有法務部法治司調部辦事檢察官楊時瑜先做以下說明本委員會先前就以"},{"start":20064.284,"end":20087.11,"text":"已就遍典自主權利法部分條文修正草案等五案進行第一輪的主條審查那保留的條文包括第四條第六條第八條第九條第十條第十二條第十四條還有新增的第十六條之一第十七條那有關本次會議如有順便資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在進行"},{"start":20088.525,"end":20111.086,"text":"現在繼續進行病人自主權利法部門條文修正草原等五案第二輪的保留條文之審查那每條條文先請行政單位來做說明 接續我們就請委員來表示意見我們現在進行保留條文第四條的審查要不要請市長先做說明"},{"start":20111.752,"end":20140.578,"text":"好 謝謝委員第四條的那個不管是王玉敏委員或是劉建國委員這邊補充的第三項的部分因為其實現在的條文裡面關於相關的東西其實已經在執行中所以能夠建請委員們能夠支持維持原條文因為新增的文字其實在實務執行上面它並沒有增加額外的效力可能反而會增加臨床實務的誤解以上"},{"start":20144.81,"end":20150.074,"text":"好委員有沒有要表示意見第4條來請王委員"},{"start":20161.984,"end":20189.306,"text":"對 我想剛剛市長有說明如果用原條文的話好像在執行上也沒有什麼太大的問題不過我們原來是劉少偉這邊也有一個修正動議當初是希望說不要在處理上造成食物的一些重大影響包括說原來的修正條文是病人已經無法明示其意願且成為"},{"start":20192.188,"end":20209.677,"text":"預歷醫療決定者 關係人不得妨礙醫療機構或醫師醫病人預歷醫療決定之作為那這次在修正動醫的部分是希望能夠把相關的調整病人成為預歷醫療決定那在當下"},{"start":20215.18,"end":20226.095,"text":"如果已經失去了意識表示能力或者是意識昏迷或無法清楚表達意願者關係人不得妨礙醫療機構或醫師依據病人預例醫療決定所為之醫療行為"},{"start":20233.787,"end":20258.473,"text":"因為這個實務上有時候真的當一個病人面臨到已經失去意識無法表示能力的當下如果他的家人又基於無法在第一時間接受狀況那希望又改變當初所預定的這些內容的時候的確是真的是造成我們在執行上的"},{"start":20259.333,"end":20278.609,"text":"就是當場 當場的醫療同仁在執行上的一些困境所以才希望說能不能夠盡量的去讓原有的當他在決定AD的時候的精神能夠保留到最後 避免當然我們也了解有時候真的是"},{"start":20279.789,"end":20297.694,"text":"大家擔心的就是會告的人都是在後面他不會在當下對我們的這個現場醫療人員造成衝擊可是醫療人員擔心的是後面如果他因為他們想要改變又沒有接受他的改變的時候"},{"start":20298.294,"end":20321.634,"text":"那會來出現爭議的大部分都是後面的家屬所以才會希望保留原來的這個想法不過如果我們真的能夠要貫徹 貫徹這些當初預列ACP AD的這種精神之下我們也認同說經過修正動議的條文似乎比較能夠讓這樣的"},{"start":20323.636,"end":20338.653,"text":"一直貫徹到他跟預期所想要接受的醫療是一致的以上好 謝謝王委員還有其他委員要表示意見嗎我們這邊有再提一個修正動議不曉得市長有沒有看過"},{"start":20340.748,"end":20360,"text":"不是原的那個草案是我們有在提一個第四條修正動議我們在把這個病人無法民事的這期意願因為之前定義可能比較不清楚並不明確所以我們會擔心有實務上的這個困擾還有誤解所以才在提出這個修正動議"},{"start":20361.081,"end":20382.907,"text":"那文字在第三項差異就應該是這樣就是病人成為預醫療決定但現已失去意識表示能力那意識無分明或無法清楚表達意願者那這個我想很清楚嘛很清楚的在這個認定的患者裡面就成為剛剛王委員所講的這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":20384.347,"end":20397.692,"text":"是不是可以認同這個修正案 可以啦 OK好 沒意見了 沒意見 好那第四條我們就照劉委員 王玉民委員 林月琴委員 王振興委員所提的修正動議通過繼續我們來處理第五條請衛務部先做說明"},{"start":20406.855,"end":20423.049,"text":"第五條 對不起 上次有修正通過了對 這一條先保留啦 好不好我們整個處理完之後再來看這一條要怎麼做處理或許 或許還是會有調 剛才陳榮有跟我講如果我們等一下審查的條件有保留的或許在"},{"start":20425.551,"end":20447.41,"text":"這個出委員會的時候協商的時候再提修正東西這也可以還是到最後的時候徵詢蘇昭也都到了這個醫界的非常棒的精英先進那如果覺得這個是可以等一下處理的那我們一輪轉完之後第二輪轉完之後走完之後我們就可以來做處理那請各位先過目第五條的修正其實只是增加那個"},{"start":20448.07,"end":20476.783,"text":"失智症的一個知情權而已啦這個是些許的這樣的一個修正好那我們繼續來處理這個保留條文第六條第六條的部分的話因為新增就是說不管是王育民委員或者是劉建國委員這邊提的版本其實是對於相關的包括了限制行為能力或者是無行為能力的這一段的一個算是"},{"start":20477.923,"end":20499.135,"text":"要做同意的這一段的一些描述我們覺得是說因為現行的新增的文字可能會造成臨床實務上面執行的困擾而且會增加道德風險是不是建請委員能夠就是說是不是能夠支持保留原條文以上好謝謝那請委員有沒有要表示其他意見"},{"start":20521.533,"end":20535.931,"text":"我可以問一下這個有一段是病人為民事反對有關係人行使同意權可以舉一下臨床的例子要怎麼去判斷他為民事反對"},{"start":20536.932,"end":20566.028,"text":"所以才會覺得是說這可能會造成臨床食物上面的困擾然後那臨床食物裡面的話其實有的時候家屬會主張譬如說就是說他可能在還沒生病之前跟我講過類似像這樣子的一個表達所以在舉證上面可能對第一線的臨床食物來說會是個困擾所以我們才會建議是說以第六條的條文是不是能夠維持原本的條文不做修正以下"},{"start":20570.131,"end":20590.805,"text":"好 請王正旭委員記得那個時候大家對於什麼叫民事什麼叫為民事都有一些討論所以我想主席劉兆偉會希望能夠修正把這個部分加進來的確事務上就像市長所擔心的"},{"start":20591.485,"end":20607.5,"text":"如果造成我們如何去定義這個民事為民事又造成徒生困擾所以我也當然尊重主席看可以有什麼其他的這個要再協助的部分不然的話我是蠻"},{"start":20608.861,"end":20632.901,"text":"能夠瞭解這個部裡面師裡面目前是覺得如果在衛民室這邊很難有一個明顯或是完整的說明的話用一個條文是一個適當的選擇以上來 請蘇召維我想這第六條就叫院辦就好了啦寫了一大堆這是在寫什麼"},{"start":20635.367,"end":20636.228,"text":"還有其他委員表示意見嗎"},{"start":20656.759,"end":20679.654,"text":"來 這個容我做一點點說明 好不好這應該沒差到一堆辣碗糕啦我不知道 我不知道是幾堆整個給小小伙伙覺得是一堆辣碗糕這件事應該是這樣啦 那座的保留也是從市長這麼講但市長可能忘記這件事情 也請市長還有法國會看一下你們自己訂的病人自主權利法施行細則第五條"},{"start":20681.209,"end":20709.324,"text":"第五條內容就是寫這樣適應細則第一項也就是本法第六條所定同意應以病人同意為優先病人為民事反對時得以關係人同意為之這個法條我只是把它提高到母法的位階適應細則也不是我們委員定的但你這個東西放在適應細則"},{"start":20711.589,"end":20735.235,"text":"這個法律的一個保留原則跟明確性足夠嗎所以我們才會把這一個怎麼講就是說剛剛幾位委員特別提到病人未明示款對食這個病人未明示款對食的用詞前置也不是這個我自己去擬出來的這是再強調一次這是病人自主權利法適應細則中的第五條"},{"start":20736.808,"end":20762.111,"text":"先把施行細則在這條文上放在這條條是這樣各位可以參考一下主管機關可以說明一下原本放在施行細則第五條你們是應用在臨床的什麼狀況可以舉例說明一下嗎就如同我剛剛舉例的就是說因為很多時候在病人自主權利法在"},{"start":20762.791,"end":20785.857,"text":"如果要執行AD的時候很可能他就沒有醫療委員代理人這些所以有關係的人就會說什麼時候這個家人講了什麼在這樣的情況下面的時候也謝謝委員這邊那個召委這邊的一個提醒其實在實行五年的時候我們七月跟八月都有陸陸續續針對病毒法這邊做了一個算是"},{"start":20788.398,"end":20805.078,"text":"協調會跟溝通說明會的時候在收音的過程當中也有很多的專家也指導我們要做連動的調整這樣可能在執行上面會比較容易也就是說其實透過委員的討論一個就是我們其實在"},{"start":20806.019,"end":20830.99,"text":"病人自主權益法的施行細則搞不好去修正施行細則因為這個討論當中也的確有相關的專家是說這個可能在執行上有問題然後如果誠如昭偉這邊講的是第六條這邊經過委員的討論覺得他的道德風險跟疑慮很重還是質疑度很高的時候其實我們就一併修正我們的施行細則以上"},{"start":20835.366,"end":20856.874,"text":"市長答覆我跟提這個條文的修正是衝突的我沒有針對你的私刑細則是有問題我反而是把你的私刑細則條文拉到法律的位階上來所以相對我是肯定你的私刑細則定這樣是OK只不過放在私刑細則的強度是不夠"},{"start":20859.963,"end":20882.743,"text":"這個很清楚關於為民事概念之定義這也是源自你們為狐狸部醫療機構施行手術及麻醉告知劑取得病人同意指導原則這個在醫療事務界已經行之有能的專業標準具有充分在操作可行性的一個法理基礎所以你們當時會定這個施行細則放在這第五條裡面應該也是這個根據"},{"start":20884.246,"end":20905.604,"text":"對不對 我只是把這個東西拿來放在母法裡面怎麼會讓你答覆我的最後一句話說你們在討論你們適應系的是不是有需要修改的部分這不對吧我沒有去挑戰你們適應系者好 尊重委員 那各位委員還沒有其他意見"},{"start":20908.019,"end":20912.345,"text":"各位能夠瞭解意思吧 信息者第6條 可能大家對照一下應該就知道這個情況 我在表達的這個情況"},{"start":20916.334,"end":20937.206,"text":"謝謝大家這樣的說明如果我們根據施行細則那也認同施行細則執行下來到目前為止並沒有諸外難省的部分的話就根據經驗法則來看的話把這個施行細則能夠更具體的明確化這個島也是一個修正的方向所以"},{"start":20937.946,"end":20959.737,"text":"基於這個原則之下我是會贊同就是劉昭偉他希望能夠把它更明確化列入到這個母法裡面這個我是可以贊同好 謝謝因為剛剛市長特別提到說會有涉及到道路風險那我們如果有這個擔心我們把它提高到這個法律位階"},{"start":20962.158,"end":20973.002,"text":"那就就就就這個道路風險反而是是可以去降低的吧好謝謝那各位沒有其他意見如果沒有我們第6條就照這個所提的版本修正通過繼續審查第8條來請行政機關表示意見第8條的部分的話"},{"start":20986.434,"end":21015.848,"text":"王玉敏委員或劉建國委員的版本的部分的話是就第八條第二項這邊把那個全部或一部改回議院啦然後那我們初步的理由會覺得是說這可能會讓病因不明確不過也尊重委員的討論是看是說到底是我們原本的原條文全部或一部這邊是比較清楚還是製議院會比較清楚然後另外一部分的話因為那個邱志偉委員的修正案的部分的話"},{"start":21017.267,"end":21043.44,"text":"他跟那個具意識能力跟具行為能力基本上面在法律上就是是兩個概念所以我們是建議是說討論的時候是不是能夠就王玉明委員或劉建國委員的版本做進一步的討論以上好謝謝市長接下來請委員針對這個第八條的修正草案沒有其他的意見"},{"start":21057.649,"end":21082.1,"text":"剛剛師長所做的這個說明裡面就是說原本的條文是具完全行為能力之人那現在包括不管是王委員或者是劉委員他們是希望把具完全行為能力之人改為具行為能力之人這樣就可以含括原有的治安人的意思就不需要說具完全行為能力"},{"start":21082.86,"end":21109.687,"text":"如果是 我不曉得法務部 法務院這邊 針對這兩個可不可以再說明一下具完全行為能力跟具行為能力之人的差異性是什麼 如果能夠互相替代的話 一個就是能夠把它簡化那如果說可以更明確的話 那具行為能力之人是不是比具完全行為能力的人更能夠讓法條的完整性可以更完整 以上"},{"start":21113.154,"end":21116.735,"text":"來 請法規會 我們陳參事陳參事在看的時候 我補充說明一下我們這第八條是針對第八條的第二項是把原有條文的全部或一部改為意願為什麼會這個樣子 這個坦白講這是安寧環球醫學會建立的啦"},{"start":21139.958,"end":21152.074,"text":"也就是說AD他不是做一個個別的醫療的一個選項所以就不用再講一部二全部就直接講醫院是這樣這個也有請示過部長因為部長對安寧緩和是強項是這樣"},{"start":21155.919,"end":21184.452,"text":"我這樣補充跟各位說明看各位能夠理解那請陳昭志委員主席我覺得加了意願兩個字會更清楚好就這第一個那第二個剛剛他們問的確實是一開始因為上面有跟原來版本還少了兩個字就是完全第一項就完全具完全行為能力之人然後其他都改成具行為能力之人那我們想請市長解釋一下完全行為跟"},{"start":21187.81,"end":21190.479,"text":"跟如果沒有完全這兩個字有差別嗎"},{"start":21193.734,"end":21219.487,"text":"跟各位報告 我們在法律上有所謂完全行為能力跟限制行為能力他在定這個就是在再敘述這兩個的差別那完全行為能力我們是講18歲以上那14歲到18歲他是限制行為能力的人所以原來的所定的就是說你要有完全行為能力的人才可以做這項事情那有限制行為能力的人"},{"start":21221.004,"end":21236.819,"text":"因為他的意識能力可能還不夠完整所以他們把那個部分排除掉了所以原來條文是希望這個慎重的事情由具備所有完全行為能力的人去做參與這樣子"},{"start":21239.679,"end":21257.073,"text":"好 謝謝 來 有要再補充嗎來 請陳委員再換黃委員我剛剛也覺得比較認同醫院這兩個字那但是我會想問醫事司 你們以前是用一部或全部應該也有發生過一些誤解或是問題有嗎"},{"start":21261.817,"end":21288.615,"text":"之前的那個全部或一部這邊的話是立法通過剛出期啦人家就說全部或一部這到底在指什麼啦其實是指上面的那個等於是類似在解釋的過程當中我不管是在維持生命治療或者是人工營養或者是人體餵養他可以選其中的之一或者是全部都選像這樣的概念是all而不是"},{"start":21289.455,"end":21314.298,"text":"而不是就是說只能夠選擇其中一個類似這樣的概念是在立法初期裡面是確實造成了一些困擾而是大概執行的過程大概到了第三年第四年以後那個Wording就比較不是個問題啦所以在這邊的話就是尊重委員會的討論的結果 以上黃委員完之後再換王委員"},{"start":21315.455,"end":21332.348,"text":"好謝謝我我不是針對這個這個第八條我想請教就是現在我們那個預立醫這個預立醫療的這個醫院簽署的這個醫院好像就是簽署率非常低那我看到那個桃園市"},{"start":21333.289,"end":21347.515,"text":"他有用這個帶狀皰疹接種的這個補助計畫裡面其中一項就是簽署預歷醫療決定書第二劑就免費那這樣子會不會影響到就是說這個我們預歷醫療的這個這個是不是會有影響這個我是覺得說因為兩"},{"start":21359.04,"end":21370.21,"text":"兩個項目是完全沒有關聯的那用帶狀皰疹第二劑免費來成為一個誘因我覺得這樣也是還滿奇怪的我是不是可以請教一下衛福部可不可以做一下回應"},{"start":21371.753,"end":21390.09,"text":"這個我們還在看那個桃園市上路之後的一個長期的效果然後我們只是就桃園市這邊設計的初衷啦他只是希望透過各種政策的結合一起來促進就是說簽署那個去做育立醫療諮商"},{"start":21391.852,"end":21416.186,"text":"就政策推動的角度我們其實是鼓勵地方政府就是發揮創意然後實質效益的部分的話我們還必須再看一下資料以上我是不是可以請教一下就是說如果是因為有的民眾他是想要就是說第二劑可以免費因為這個袋裝炮子一劑也要好幾千塊那會不會因為這樣子"},{"start":21417.847,"end":21439.974,"text":"有一些影響我覺得應該衛福部也要去做一下思考就是說他到底是有這個意願去簽這個育立醫療醫組這個決定書或者是因為他是要接種這個帶狀泡澤免費然後去簽這個決定書我覺得這樣是兩者關聯真的是還蠻奇怪的"},{"start":21441.214,"end":21465.772,"text":"謝謝委員的建議其實我們對這個議題還蠻關注的啦因為用任何的公共衛生政策能夠提升ACP的簽署率其實也是各位委員已經指導我們要去做努力的地方所以這個地方是因為短期我們目前還沒看到一些實際上的數據所以我們這邊我們會會繼續關注然後到時候再來做一個回應以上"},{"start":21468.082,"end":21487.859,"text":"因為我有跟王委員完之後再換陳委員好不好 不好意思謝謝我針對那個醫院的部分我也表達一下意思因為的確當初是用接受或拒絕維持生命治療或人工營養及流體餵養這全部或一部"},{"start":21488.559,"end":21501.018,"text":"但是在食物我们在执行的时候是可以让病人做一个选定他是要all或者是one of其中可以执行的部分"},{"start":21501.704,"end":21518.063,"text":"那如果我們把他改成醫院的話相對就是說他先表達當他需要的時候他可以有哪一些可以執行的內容所以我我是認同把他改成醫院會比較能夠完整表達我們這一條這個法案要傳遞出來訊息"},{"start":21519.424,"end":21542.911,"text":"不過我會比較好奇就是說我們做這樣的改變的時候我們立法說明是不是要適度的也去讓大家在參考的時候了解一下當初會從這個原來有接受不同的這個全部或一部改成意願這個立法說明當中要把這個精神或者是改變能夠呈現出這個改變的用意這是以上的建議以上好 謝謝 再來請陳清威委員"},{"start":21548.768,"end":21576.137,"text":"這邊想要請問一下法務部的代表就是法律上是分三種無行為能力或是限制行為能力或是完全行為能力我是這個但這邊的版本有一個行為能力之人這樣子多了一種說法不知道法務部會不會認為維持院版那樣子的說法會比較好完全行為能力"},{"start":21578.476,"end":21601.017,"text":"像那個委員報告因為在那個民法上完全行為能力人限制行為能力人那個主要影響到是民事契約的簽訂完全行為能力人就是說在那個一定規定年齡以上之人那民事契約他有這個能力去訂所以訂出來的民事契約會是有效的限制行為能力人通常就是說像一定年齡的未成年"},{"start":21601.818,"end":21629.331,"text":"那他訂的那個民事契約是效率會定有時候需要這個規定是需要完全行為能力人就家長 通常家長然後來同意的話他才能生效這樣無行為能力人通常就是他訂的民事契約會是無效的狀況對 那至於說為什麼會把這個行為能力放在這個這邊討論那就是可能我們還是尊重這個主管機關他們政策上的決定大概報告以上 謝謝"},{"start":21632.335,"end":21638.507,"text":"你聽清楚嗎我有很認真在聽我我我"},{"start":21642.27,"end":21666.643,"text":"因為對不起我跟各位報告一下原本我們有要修第五在修正動議第五條但是上次審查的時候第五條已經通過所以我剛剛剛開始的時候我有跟各位報告說第五條可能我們第二輪走完之後各位如果覺得這個有連動性的條文是不是可以在最後我們再來做處理不然就就要協商的時候再提修正動議然後我跟各位報告在第五條裡面是有這樣的"},{"start":21667.583,"end":21684.579,"text":"一個修正就是第五條的第三項具行為能力之病人經一位醫師診斷符合末期或中間機關公告第十四條第一項第五款疾病史後來我們再增一個第四款第四款就是針對失智的有執行權"},{"start":21688.687,"end":21714.322,"text":"的這個對象如果反之 我們的一個說明裡面是有特別提到病人不具完全行為能力之樣態不具喔 現在講不具也就是說他包括他的能力鮮有不足未經宣告對不起 就是說他不具有這個完全的行為的能力的樣態包含表示能力鮮有不足但未經宣告所以"},{"start":21716.423,"end":21743.418,"text":"我這樣說明可能大家會誤會應該說剛剛法規會陳參事還有這個法務部的一個說明來講就完全的行為能力跟具備這個行為能力基本上它還是有一個差異啦有一個差異我們在第8條裡面去談到的各位可以看這個第二項"},{"start":21746.986,"end":21771.614,"text":"我剛才是要用不具完全行為能力來解釋我覺得我這樣解釋可能大家聽不懂具行為能力之人得為預立醫療決定並得以隨時以書面測為或變更之然後原條是叫做具完全行為能力"},{"start":21774.928,"end":21784.118,"text":"雖然我再把兩句話再念一次大家應該就可以比較能夠理解說好像我們的修正的用這樣的文字基本上是比較確定性"},{"start":21788.407,"end":21804.625,"text":"比較明確來請師長說明我補充一下我們當初在寫的時候完全行為能力因為完全行為能力它有一個算是資格叫做年紀第一個就是年紀第二個就是它的"},{"start":21806.207,"end":21833.641,"text":"那個應該怎麼講就是譬如說認知的狀態我可能是成年人可能我要經過我們講的介護宣告這件事情比較清楚就是說法院要認證說這個在這個狀況下面的時候不太適合執行所以它有兩個條件一個是能力然後一個是年紀所以那時候我們講完全行為能力的時候是這兩個要件都符合"},{"start":21834.401,"end":21852.552,"text":"然後行為能力的話他就是年紀或者是那個那個能力的部分可能就部分是未達到所以在這個地方上面的話就是為什麼會有完全行為能力跟行為能力他代表的意思是不太一樣的然後我簡短的補充以上"},{"start":21855.339,"end":21883.543,"text":"我想市長也盡量說明我這邊如果再一個說明就是說為什麼要特別去強調一個完全具有完全的這個是在民法112年的時候有過這樣的修正啦他後來應該都全部改為具行為能力啦各位可不可以 法規會能不能再查一下還是法務部再查一下所以我們是讓法律的一致性就把這個具完全這完全兩個字拿掉就具行為能力嘛"},{"start":21899.21,"end":21905.872,"text":"而且六七年前在訂病桌的時候那個時候是依照的這個詞彙應該是這樣然後好像現在"},{"start":21911.261,"end":21914.532,"text":"這邊可以查到八字一嗎八字一好像也是一樣的條文一樣的文字"},{"start":21918.826,"end":21948.186,"text":"主席請說我現在了解說當初這個所謂的完全行為能力如果是配合剛剛講到的民法行為能力的用語把這個完全去除去這樣我是可以理解那我同時也把這個剛剛召委想要表達的如何能夠讓完全行為能力在司長剛剛的說明裡面來做一個補充"},{"start":21948.946,"end":21966.662,"text":"意思就是說假設一位他是受到監護或者是因為他的個人行為被剝奪他具有完全行為的法律要件之下可是他還是有他可以表達他對生命自主的一種尊重"},{"start":21967.442,"end":21991.901,"text":"不要因为他可能比如说他在坐牢因为其他因素坐牢就去剥夺到他表达对于生命自主的这种可以表达自己的意思的时候具有行为能力就能够保护他们这方面的权益我听起来意思是这样子我不知道赵伟的意思是不是这样所以意思就是说"},{"start":21993.282,"end":22018.86,"text":"18歲以下可能相對來講他比較少有機會來參與ACP跟AD的整體的決策可是如果他假設他是40歲他本身現在因為有各種因素他某一個方面的法律是被限縮了可是如果他要表達他對生命的自主病毒法是可以給他保障的這樣就不應該去剝奪他的這方面的自主的表達"},{"start":22021.081,"end":22037.052,"text":"我剛所聽到的意思好像是這個樣子在這邊把我的意思再充分的表達謝謝所以意思是我會贊成說具行為能力之人這樣事實上是足夠的好 OK來 請市長 請陳真事"},{"start":22040.403,"end":22054.529,"text":"是 謝謝趙偉那個趙偉剛剛所請我們查那個那個當時修是修年紀就把從20歲降為18那針對行為能力到底是的定義是沒有修的"},{"start":22055.902,"end":22078.585,"text":"這是第一個回答那第二個回答我們原來條文的這個定義是說把這個完全行為能力是把14到18歲這個限制行為能力人跟受監護宣告這個人通通趕快排除掉這個叫完全行為能力人那如果沒有這樣定就可能14到18歲這個有限制行為能力的人"},{"start":22080.276,"end":22088.882,"text":"有可能在解釋上會被認為說他也可以去預定醫療遺囑所以是當時是用比較嚴格的這個標準來定這個定義"},{"start":22092.898,"end":22109.986,"text":"好 那請陳委員我剛剛聽完法規會的解釋我也認為如果說這個14到18醫療機構我怕他會有所混淆他沒有辦法去判斷他是不是具有行為能力之人"},{"start":22110.686,"end":22136.815,"text":"因為民法下修到18歲就是把完全行為能力的標準降低那用年紀來判斷行為能力的程度這一點是沒有改變的那實務上就是用民法的年紀來判斷所以才分成完全限制跟無這三項現在如果我們只有寫一個行為能力我覺得醫療機構在提供這個ACP或是AD的服務會"},{"start":22139.337,"end":22142.221,"text":"會很混淆嘛對不對法規會應該是這個意思吧OK啦這個其實應該講這個醫療委任代理人"},{"start":22155.885,"end":22170.284,"text":"也有改成這個成年且具有行為能力我要怎麼表達對 然後明華是在112年前剛剛有特別跟各位報告明華承認18歲以前未成年已分責"},{"start":22171.225,"end":22192.33,"text":"具行為能力但現在已無此可能性了那所以當時寫醫療委任代理人他是以成年前這個完全的行為能力為限但是現在去把它簡化具有行為能力是沒有問題的啦我這樣解釋不曉得大家聽懂不懂有聽沒有懂喔"},{"start":22202.864,"end":22224.916,"text":"沒關係 不然這條我們先保留啦好不好 因為後面議員是沒問題 現在這個完全具行為能力跟具行為能力這個我們再再再再再下一輪再討論好不好 好 謝謝我們可能要用文字再說明清楚一點 大家大家也比較OK接下來我們處理第9條來請行政機關表示意見"},{"start":22228.707,"end":22250.044,"text":"第九條的部分的話我們先講一下7月21號我們部裡面這邊有召開了就是相關的專家的一個算是對於病毒法第九條的討論啦多數與會的專家其實是不建議調整第一項第一款的ACP執行的機構的範圍啦"},{"start":22251.886,"end":22270.488,"text":"然後其實多數都同意是說擴大執行ACP的場域然後那第二個部分的話是覺得是說如果就是擴大這樣子的話可能會造成第一線食物上面的一個壓力然後對於第二項的部分的話"},{"start":22271.249,"end":22293.307,"text":"配偶的部分的話真的是上次在立法上面有所疏漏所以是說在第二項誰可以就是說誰應該參與ACP諮商的這邊的話加入那個配偶的地方其實是多數的專家這邊也是覺得是需要的以上來請委員表示意見請蘇召委"},{"start":22301.178,"end":22318.996,"text":"我想這一條是這個法案最重要的一個部分所以上次一直講要核准到護理機構 長照機構 身體治療所諮商所等等都放寬我還是反對"},{"start":22320.458,"end":22338.156,"text":"那剛剛那個衛福部也有召開專家的會議他們是同意說場域能夠放寬這個我們同意所以我再念一遍好了經主管機關核准醫療機構"},{"start":22341.459,"end":22346.9,"text":"致育立醫療照護諮商團體致醫療機構護理機構或長照機構提供育立醫療照護諮商並經其餘育立醫療決定上合張證明"},{"start":22365.384,"end":22393.816,"text":"那至於第三項那個配偶配偶的部分我們也同意能夠加入所以就是說那個團隊也是一樣要有底的然後去不同的地方這樣大家作為者這樣可以如果要轉向開放到什麼心理治療所什麼都可以的話這個是會太不適當"},{"start":22394.716,"end":22401.464,"text":"阿嬤沒文化啦 以上好 謝謝蘇州的意見 還有請教委員要表示意見嗎來 請澄清衛委員"},{"start":22405.031,"end":22427.728,"text":"我只是echo一下蘇釗緯的說法我們上次其實都認同為了加強他的便利性開放到多個多個場域這個我們都是ok的那如果讓醫療團隊來進駐這樣是比較適合大家應該上次討論都很有感觸那我也是想要請教司長主管機關假使"},{"start":22429.45,"end":22437.084,"text":"讓醫療團隊到不同的場域來做這個諮商服務對你們來說有沒有什麼難度或是限制性 謝謝"},{"start":22439.021,"end":22462.502,"text":"如果是核准的醫療機構其實就是現在的外展服務經過那個其實是預先的報備資源其實就可以做處理所以在執行的實況裡面它的難度其實並沒有啦然後那我們會覺得是說如果是到醫療機構那個護理機構跟廠商機構是真的可以增加可敬性以上"},{"start":22467.474,"end":22491.306,"text":"來 請王委員的確這個第九條它的變動非常的大而且當初是希望能夠有一個相對完整的品質在提供ACP跟AD的過程裡面透過團隊的服務模式才能夠讓整個過程會"},{"start":22493.067,"end":22509.2,"text":"非常的讓民眾感受到說他是充分的了解掌握到對於自己生命自主的一些必要的內容至少當他有完整的諮詢不管是從醫療的從護理的"},{"start":22511.502,"end":22525.579,"text":"從精神醫學或者是心理師的諮商甚至是從社公司的幫忙等等的團隊來做完整的服務的時候他可以很具體的去最後知道他的AD要怎麼做他願不願意同意"},{"start":22527.16,"end":22546.925,"text":"當然我們也看到事情下來碰到了一些困境這個困境在經過幾次討論下來的確也可以從原來只能在醫療機構本身執行後來就有外展到可以讓更多的服務單位包括護理機構等等都能夠"},{"start":22547.845,"end":22571.285,"text":"在這個團隊協助之下可以把它完成當然我們也很期待這樣的完成可以更有擴大這個量能那不過我記得趙委員也一直在挑戰挑戰說現在要把現有的這個健保從兩萬變成四萬這個目標本身如果這樣的外展能不能達成這是一個挑戰"},{"start":22572.086,"end":22586.938,"text":"那如果未來當初是署長也說只要是65歲以上具有重大傷病包括癌症那可能就不是2萬到4萬這樣的族群而已那如果這個族群更大那"},{"start":22587.438,"end":22616.776,"text":"很多的人有了解到可以透過健保的協助之下來針對ACP跟這個AD的完成生命的選擇可以更符合自己的期待的時候如果這個量能更大的話那現有這樣的整個用團隊的服務模式是不是也能夠達到這個目標我想趙薇也非常關心也屢次在挑戰到底我們這個執行能力有沒有辦法去完成它"},{"start":22617.846,"end":22633.738,"text":"我個人的想法是認為如果對生命自主本身這是一個生命教育這個生命教育它到底是醫療行為還是非屬醫療行為這個是非常重要的一個概念"},{"start":22634.318,"end":22649.67,"text":"那如果他是一個醫療行為我們才有機會讓他是屬於健保可以提供他的這個醫療費用的一個重要的概念如果他是個輔助醫療行為大約我們也可以把他認為是個健保可以處理的部分"},{"start":22653.112,"end":22673.74,"text":"那如果都把他認為這是一個生命教育可是他並不是醫療行為也非屬非輔助醫療行為我們用健保來給付這個費用基本上我是不太認同因為畢竟所有的生命教育是應該大家都要認識的那只要你有完整的瞭解你透過專業人員去讓"},{"start":22676.201,"end":22699.624,"text":"我每一個人都能夠掌握到病毒法裡面到底是要傳遞哪一方面的生命教育只要能夠把這樣具體的去呈現的話那是不是要整完整的醫療團隊來處理才算是好的一個服務模式這一部分我們是其實可以再討論我的意思是說如果他是一個屬於健保的"},{"start":22701.178,"end":22719.021,"text":"核准之下可以使用的对象包括我们刚刚所提到的目前框定的这些族群我会认同它是属于一个辅助医疗行为重要的一部分当一个年长者他又离癌了他当然要能够先知道他未来会面临的哪一些问题"},{"start":22720.003,"end":22731.557,"text":"那如果他是一個年長者他又有三高他很快可能會面臨到一些生命的選擇的時候那他需要很完整的團隊來服務他這個是很合理的"},{"start":22731.966,"end":22754.835,"text":"他如果是一個相對年輕比如說他的家長是一個癌症病人當他在幫助他的這個年長的家人在克服癌症的過程裡面他會警覺到他對自己的生命如何能夠去掌控他可是如果他來做ACP跟AD要用健保來給予我覺得這個適當性就需要來討論"},{"start":22756.155,"end":22770.886,"text":"那如果說他願意去接受ACP跟AD是透過其他的有受過專業訓練的人去充分的掌握到病處法能夠提供給他哪一方面的服務模式可是他不是健保的這種"},{"start":22772.567,"end":22789.514,"text":"費用而是透過不管是公務費用或者是自費去協助處理的話那我會認為並不見得需要整體的醫療團隊來做這個事情所以如果能夠把這兩個部分做一些調理的話也許我們可以討論出一個更適當的方法出來"},{"start":22790.434,"end":22813.907,"text":"可是基本上就是醫師心理師或是其他相關的訓練具有一定資格的人能夠來把這個生命教育做給全民針對這個病毒法的需求來符合他這個對於生命自主的尊重或者是能掌握的話我覺得這是一個好的方向以上好 謝謝還有其他委員的意見嗎要表達嗎"},{"start":22820.233,"end":22837.306,"text":"好如果沒有我是不是在這邊簡單講幾個背景資料然後給各位做參考那王委員一直講說我是用挑戰的角度其實不是啦我是用一個實際他這個衛福部在整個執行的這個樣態現在進行式"},{"start":22840.528,"end":22859.995,"text":"包含那一天的諮詢的時候我也特別就教部長跟劉市長因為我們在諮詢的當天當下是健保署已經在5月1號公布嘛公布就是說健保要來啟戶就是65歲以上這些重症病患等等等有將近180萬是可以來做這個免費的預例醫療諮商"},{"start":22866.903,"end":22885.4,"text":"好 那在健保署已經同意要做這件事情的當下剛好我們有排這個專案報告未來就要這個病毒署法的審查那我們從這個病毒署法通過之後實施的這6年確實有這個簽署的AD是不到全國的1%啦"},{"start":22888.452,"end":22902.104,"text":"那天當年就叫市長的時候市長一想說那平均一年是兩萬那希望從這個今年度開始要可以目標提升到四萬這個都是行政機關對委員會做這樣的說明"},{"start":22903.925,"end":22925.183,"text":"那我们才会有点担忧,担忧就是说当你所谓的不去做相关的扩大或是这个法律上的一些变革,你怎么有办法已经六年的时间平均每年就是两万,到现在不到一趴的这个签署这个AD的情况之下,你如果可以让他倍增两万到四万。"},{"start":22927.445,"end":22949.036,"text":"各位懂我的意思嗎那如果通通沒有做任何的一個變動一個處理的方法那很難而且是我們是在五院混辦的辦這個專案報告那其實今年度就剩下七八個月而已那我不曉得現在進度怎麼樣這是其一啦這是其一那其二各位各位應該非常清楚現在醫療是非常緊繃的啦"},{"start":22951.494,"end":22975.744,"text":"蘇昭維本身自己都是這個專業領域的人那可能有城鄉的落差但是你看這個就很奇怪就是說越北部的這個緊繃的狀況是越厲害嘛對不對那這些醫療機構如果我們只是限定在這個育立醫療的這個諮商而已喔不是簽署就諮商而已就一定要設定在醫療機構去進行"},{"start":22978.501,"end":22984.801,"text":"各位要不要去思考一個問題你怎麼有辦法去突破怎麼有辦法去增加"},{"start":22986.001,"end":23011.952,"text":"我講說ACP就好 不用講到簽署AD你ACP沒有辦法增加 你拿的AD的量也會增加你怎麼讓你的2萬變成4萬 這是第一個問題這不叫挑戰 這大家理性來討論那第二件事情是這樣 那天我有追尋這個市長市長跟我講說 其實他們未來要擴大到診所嘛市長是這麼答覆我"},{"start":23012.572,"end":23039.918,"text":"沒有啊診所就原本就在你的醫療機構的範疇裡面了啊但是我請師長還請各位醫界的先進去調查一下現在有哪一家診所在幫你做ACP全國的診所協會可以調資料現在有幾家在做ACP比例我們講比例就好比例就好做的成效怎樣這六年"},{"start":23041.073,"end":23062.237,"text":"這六年好這是第二件事情這第二件事情那第三件事情說真的現在市長如果可以提供出來最好沒有提供出來也沒有關係我可以跟你預告了如果你提出來是說全國的徵索協會有在做ACP的有10%那今年絕對會下降"},{"start":23064.554,"end":23085.564,"text":"各位為什麼為什麼我會敢這麼講這些話國健署補助我們醫療機構針對很多的這個免費健康的篩檢那個量能是倍增的那個診察的費用也是也是怎麼跳的 各位都很清楚講白話 我做這個做不去 我做自己這個去"},{"start":23088.188,"end":23113.383,"text":"我做這個做不去 要做這個去我做這個可能是幾分鐘可以解決我做一個ACP要搞多久市長 這個還是我們委員會現在有散會最專業的醫師都在這個地方所以在衛福部體系底下建保署去同意5月1號開始180萬可以免費做ACP"},{"start":23118.203,"end":23143.724,"text":"然後一樣今年度開始我們要打造健康台灣然後雙生嘛就提高這個篩檢嘛對不對等等等那國健署又匡了一大筆經費現在在執行中喔現在在執行中好那我們現在是講就針對病人的部分喔就180萬健康的人想事先來簽的人想事先來做ACP的要去哪裡"},{"start":23149.527,"end":23171.221,"text":"那一天我們排考察的時候 王偉有去嘛 還有趙志偉也有去那台北市立的總院的總院長剛好不在不過他派出的代表也特別強調我們為什麼去考察那一家因為他是全國簽署AD最多 ACP做最多的醫院"},{"start":23173.376,"end":23199.839,"text":"那總院長 建哥啦 大家都叫他建哥他其實 他也是醫療背景 他也是專業的醫師他要當做總院長他覺得這個 你這邊再擴你其他的東西都不去調整然後你還要醫師來做 一定要專職的醫師來做這些那不可能的事情嘛 那做不出來嘛對一間病房 我怎麼做"},{"start":23203.485,"end":23230.253,"text":"這是他講話啦所以你如果要達到這個目標如果做這件事情的目標是正確的做這件事情是對的那基本上行政機關 衛福部行政機關他已經在擴大免費的ACP的諮商了他擴大了 五月要擴大這個不是你講的不是我講的是他們健保署 衛福部一定也是報部 最後同意的嘛對不對那我們在擔心說你開這麼多你是怎麼做"},{"start":23233.847,"end":23249.155,"text":"你又不擴大場域你又不給其他的這些機構可以來做你全部都擠到一個醫療緊繃的這個機構裡面然後又要做這些事情這是要加租給我們的醫護人員是要做到不做還是要給他做成他們多少負擔我看那天你說這個樣態可能會發生的情況然後我還沒有講到國健署"},{"start":23263.17,"end":23271.934,"text":"然後各位應該都有診所的朋友嘛就問他們很清楚這你們要做這個時間你們要做最後再補充說針對病患擴大這個量能針對健康的人有意願的人要來做ACP"},{"start":23280.751,"end":23298.45,"text":"就我現在的理解當然北中南有可能這個要看市長的調查怎麼樣北中南可能情況不太一樣我的理解北區北區應該應該要排到兩三個月都未必能夠能夠排上去諮商那"},{"start":23299.332,"end":23319.472,"text":"那我們今天推這個政策然後又要增加這樣的兩到四萬如果可以去到這個年底可以達標各位聽我這麼講是不是大家在做一個思考了好不好謝謝我可不可以補充一下我先補充一下那個一些實際上面"},{"start":23322.214,"end":23337.955,"text":"實際上面執行的狀況的第一件事情其實這個還是第一個是認知上面到底有沒有改變然後所以過去幾年其實我們在做宣導教育的時候其實也希望民眾能夠接受過去的資料顯示"},{"start":23339.396,"end":23359.688,"text":"會接受要去做育育諮商的這件事情的幾乎都是在生命的旅程裡面有過這樣子的事件包括了他的家人或包括他的本人才會去簽署所以在衝擊面的部分的話我們為什麼像那個趙偉這邊問我們的時候我們是持樂觀的態度的原因是因為"},{"start":23360.288,"end":23387.277,"text":"而認知的改變沒那麼快所以衝擊可能不會馬上造成而是我們做的準備度的部分的話其實在行政流程裡面並不是是說去一個去病人的家裡面就只能做一件事其實是同步一起做的話其實有些行政程序的一個合併讓排程變得比較順利譬如說像社工啦像那個我們講的"},{"start":23389.458,"end":23415.051,"text":"臨床或者是護理人員先去做一個preparation這樣子醫師再去確認那個所謂的諮商的時間可以縮短就是怎麼樣在維護品質下面透過各多多重團隊的一個成員來做協助把這個品質維持住然後把最關鍵的一個確定跟醫師談完的確定這個意向的那個"},{"start":23416.272,"end":23445.254,"text":"品質把它維持住其實是最近這兩年我們在跟專業團隊在做討論的時候利用協作的方式把整個程序而不是一定是要串聯一關做一關 一關做一關其實用並聯的方式有一些先做先起的準備在正式之上的時候才能夠達到同樣的效果然後目前是以這種改善行政效率的方式來做一個我們提升量能的準備"},{"start":23445.934,"end":23475.594,"text":"然後第三個其實是我們的基層這邊受過訓在我們居家醫療這邊受過訓的人員已經有資格的大概已經達到九成了然後那我現在沒有辦法回復是說到底有多少基層診所這邊有在做可是這個數字我們是覺得有會樂觀其成因為大家都知道是說去看病人的時候其實在高齡化的社會其實不管是家屬也好病人也好"},{"start":23475.934,"end":23501.617,"text":"甚至醫生的期待在開口談這件事情現在比過去容易啦我補充以上三點 謝謝好 謝謝 請蘇昭偉我們現在在做淨資產的宣告以前都是法官 書記官來到醫院就當那個病人然後由醫師就直接會同判定這個是法院非常堅持的"},{"start":23502.538,"end":23530.462,"text":"那現在也開放了現在就是病人如果在家裡那法官跟書記官還有醫師是大家一起到這個病人家屬到病人的家裡去做判定這個現在也OK所以這個團隊如果現在是有一個團隊是受訓的 認可的然後他們到各個地方就長照機構 護理機構都可以去那邊做判定"},{"start":23531.222,"end":23540.308,"text":"我們是樂觀其成那因為在那邊做一做也可以直接就簽署 鋪張了都可以做"},{"start":23541.348,"end":23562.103,"text":"那你說一套的契約大家都可以去做我是擔心啦所以用主管機關核准的團隊去各個機構去提供預立醫療的諮商甚至以決定甚至以合張證明是好的"},{"start":23563.822,"end":23582.396,"text":"開放這樣 先這樣 趙薇先這樣走 大家看嘛希望一個像這樣 慕容這麼大我非常高興來 請陳委員對不起 趙薇因為我也有找了幾位我做這個的同學稍微聊了一下"},{"start":23582.936,"end":23601.213,"text":"就跟市長講的一樣現在面臨的我們當然都覺得量希望可以衝起來可是品質品質是他講完這個他到底有沒有完全的理解那ACP就像蘇昭薇講的ACP跟AD是連動的你如果ACP做得好"},{"start":23601.733,"end":23625.785,"text":"那由護理師 心理師 社工師做得好但是最後這個在健保卡上做註記這個AD這個動作交由醫生來做認證合張然後把它一氣呵成否則你簽了做了再多ACP那他沒有轉換成AD他最後也沒有落實最後你對生命有尊重有權利的這樣子的效果"},{"start":23627.382,"end":23641.418,"text":"那假使他一口氣開放到全部的人員還有這麼多的場地我覺得144現在有很大的難題你根本沒有辦法去讓他的品質達到一致還有其他補充嗎"},{"start":23652.787,"end":23667.727,"text":"我在這邊再稍微把剛剛我所聽到的再做一些整理對我來講我們知道一個會牽扯到健保給付費用我剛剛也有說明說當他是要健保給付費用"},{"start":23668.368,"end":23687.259,"text":"病人不應該說病人是說有一個有醫院人他希望透過現有的服務模式就是團隊經過說明以後他認知到ACP最後簽署了AD從病毒法的精神是給他一個好的保障"},{"start":23687.879,"end":23703.099,"text":"未來他可以不需要其他人幫他做決定是我自己來做決定就是目前目前我們在執行的部分那現在剛剛所提到的問題就是說那如果"},{"start":23704.269,"end":23719.385,"text":"如果現在健保提供的這個3000元的諮商費是透過健保給付所以病人是應該說簽署者他醫院者他是不需要再另外付費的這是現有的制度那如果"},{"start":23720.266,"end":23746.789,"text":"如果一個年輕人相對他父親或者是母親或其他家人的關係他對他生命自主想要有更強烈的這種自我的認知跟去做確認的話那假設他不符合條件的時候一定就不知道怎麼處理就對了因為他基本上就會變成說那他自廢嘛"},{"start":23748.111,"end":23751.336,"text":"智慧當然就可以執行如果這樣的量"},{"start":23753.43,"end":23776.998,"text":"或者是這樣的品質本身不一定因為他還沒有真的面對到他這個生命本身帶來的衝擊的時候他想要做這兩個事情我們現在透過如何去滿足這個需求這個法條裡面第九條基本上就是希望能夠有機會去同時去合併這兩個需求"},{"start":23779.199,"end":23794.552,"text":"所以我看到目前召委這邊也提了一個修正動議就是希望是不是能夠同時去滿足這兩方面的需求來服務增加量能那這個如果要滿足剛剛提到不是健保"},{"start":23796.674,"end":23814.186,"text":"來出這個諮商費而是由假設這個年輕人他覺得他願意去接受這樣的諮商他也願意自費當然這個費用是不是一定要3000元這個是可以另外再處理的或者是去討論的他如果需要這樣的話是不是一定要經過這個原來我們現在所規範的團隊才能夠提供這個服務"},{"start":23818.169,"end":23833.601,"text":"如果其他比如說有接受過完整訓練的人他可以把這個精神傳遞出去的話那我們把條這個規定是不是能夠有機會來滿足這個需求同時又能夠協助到整個"},{"start":23834.281,"end":23847.996,"text":"未來對病毒法的實施上帶來的這些量能上的衝擊我想我們提高調應該就是你討論這個嘛所以等一下是不是看趙薇是不是有其他在讓大家討論的時候可以更聚焦的 以上"},{"start":23848.683,"end":23872.768,"text":"好 不是蘇昭偉已經在跟我暗示叫我保留我是在10公里之外你嘴巴怎麼動我都知道你在講什麼這第9條我們有再提修正動議我請陳委員還有蘇昭偉再看一下其實坦白講這個是大家可以共同做提案的這其實是王委員的"},{"start":23873.488,"end":23897.919,"text":"的智慧因為剛剛為什麼先不談整個法條在修正動議的內容市長答覆我還是在之前尚未修正動議是修正的條文那我只是在當時提這個法條修正的時候是在講一個背景資料剛剛市長答覆過程裡面有幾句話也跟陳委員所講的內容是一致的就是這個品質我們還是要顧"},{"start":23900.714,"end":23921.372,"text":"我當然知道品質要顧啊但其實擴大要滋傷 免費滋傷的量能不是委員會要求啊是健保署在5月1號公告的嘛當時是透過什麼樣的評估這個評估裡面難道他們沒有去思考到一下子擴大到180萬他們不用兼顧到品質他們不需要去理解到醫療機構現在這麼樣緊繃的情況嗎"},{"start":23924.946,"end":23951.629,"text":"而且這些多數 各位都很清楚嘛65歲以上是針對這個多重慢性病啦還是重大疾病 還是甚至於這個癌症末期的對象 對不對那這些基本上都在機構裡面都已經在機構裡面那我們是從這樣的角度在垂尋思長你這180萬你要做多久才可以完成才可以完成嘛"},{"start":23952.822,"end":23965.407,"text":"我們顯然沒有得到答案當然也不是一百八十萬都免費那一百八十萬就全部來做今天在討論這個免八十兩秒的道理一樣你有沒有低推估 你有沒有中推估"},{"start":23967.772,"end":23990.712,"text":"這樣的情況之下 如果低推過來講會造成你剛剛所講的ACP在整個進行的行政程序你要如何去怎樣縮 怎樣精 怎樣達到這個品質的保障然後你又可以創造出這個量能最終來符合你所謂的ACP 進階到簽署AD的量能再提高嘛"},{"start":23992.95,"end":24007.812,"text":"我們就是沒有得到答案啊所以我們會擔憂嘛 會擔心嘛那我們才想說今天透過修華我們希望兼顧品質然後也是一樣要提高這個量能因為這個最終的這個目標基本上"},{"start":24008.513,"end":24037.091,"text":"不要再有过多的无效医疗然后也让健康的人事先都可以去理解到这个生命的整个这样的意义的存在然后可能遇到这个第十款所规范的这五款的这个症状的时候你本人及你的家人都不用再过度在那边有冲突犹豫不决的情况之下也不要让这个医师在执行AD过程里面产生没有必要的这种伤害跟困扰"},{"start":24037.771,"end":24065.943,"text":"所以我們才會才會在主張在修嘛是這個樣子那基本上還是配合衛福部行政機關你們希望可以達到了這樣的目標所以我想兩兆市要追尋的目標是一致的啦但是這個看法怎麼會這麼迥異我是覺得覺得是不是是不是回歸到回歸到我們現在這6年的執行狀態"},{"start":24068.73,"end":24082.739,"text":"這六年的執行狀態在醫療機構執行的情況為什麼這六年才一趴嘛 對不對那你要讓下一年 讓今年你要讓它達到多少 兩萬變四萬你要怎麼達標嘛"},{"start":24086.397,"end":24110.018,"text":"我還是希望你們針對這個問題來做答覆嘛這是一件事情喔這個是市長上位做報告之前準備做這個報告的時候所講的但是那個擴大到180萬的健保署去免費要做這個諮商我不曉得跟你意思是有沒有聯動有沒有事先溝通有沒有 我也不清楚"},{"start":24111.636,"end":24137.455,"text":"總而言之 言而總之我們先天透過這個修法其實王委員也是醫療的背景他最終最終想出一個權宜之策就是分流嘛分流就是說你180萬你健保署同意免費的這部分你一樣就在醫療機構因為他多數也都在醫療機構但是像人家健康的想要來參與你國家的政策"},{"start":24138.862,"end":24165.377,"text":"想要來事先做這個育立醫療的決定然後我必須要先過諮商你不要讓我等兩個月三個月四個月我還要智慧呢你多開一個場域出來也是你們自己講的啊那為什麼你就不能接受這些場域難道多接受擴大到這些場域你們很難管理你們擔心這樣品質就會壞了"},{"start":24166.704,"end":24191.829,"text":"你不去開網你怎麼知道還是這些原本就不是你管的所以就不要在這個法律給我動因為法律是我管的不對啊我們既然目標是一致的怎麼會一直幫行政機關來想辦法難道我們是不是很雞婆我們雞婆這邊也有專業背景的人"},{"start":24196.812,"end":24209.764,"text":"請你細看這個再修正動議你把這個修正動議的內容看完之後你來答覆 我覺得你看不去想到我們的心 好不好對啦 這樣啦 不然我是會覺得"},{"start":24211.089,"end":24228.075,"text":"真的啦 因為那時候在修正動議的時候還沒有出來的時候他這樣答覆我沒有意見啦但是在提這個修正動議的內容你看完之後不然他這個答覆跟之前答覆是一樣嘛我們之前答覆他答覆說我們就在反對這個面向的事情啦以上拜託 抱歉"},{"start":24229.445,"end":24256.123,"text":"好 报告赵伟因为这个修正动议我刚刚跟王正旭委员稍微讨论完了那我懂您的意思但我也想知道说您在提这个在修正动议您有稍微想你的团队的成员大概要几位什么背景那卫福部如果要定可能执法或是法条去认证这些人的资格"},{"start":24259.865,"end":24278.664,"text":"是我想要知道落實您這個修正動議所要花費的成本時間成本 法條等等的這個能我再做一個說明因為其實要再修這個法的時候其實也都有再去拜訪總院長當然其實"},{"start":24282.615,"end":24310.533,"text":"医界也有这样的声音有这样的声音嘛对不对这个都无可厚非啦每一个专科的医师对这个看法也有不太一样的见解这个我们都尊重嘛好那至于刚刚市长也特别提到说如果在医疗机构基本上他可以怎样去精简到浓缩整个资商的这个行政程序呢我说真的啊"},{"start":24312.395,"end":24335.572,"text":"要怎麼去做其實也是口頭聽市長這麼講而已嘛對不對你最終要留給醫師是幾分鐘最終是醫師來決定嗎你是心理師最後決定還是心理師要最前面決定所以你的行政所謂的智商的行政程序你怎麼去說"},{"start":24337.495,"end":24353.282,"text":"我不太清楚 這個也要明確出來然後在醫療機構在辦法裡面的規範我講真的 這個量如果大起來的話你寫的這些人 都會全部都在裡面嗎"},{"start":24358.412,"end":24370.441,"text":"有多少人在同一時間的地方還是照排班一個鐘頭這個人10分鐘那個人15分鐘那個人10分鐘最後醫生就5分鐘然後就最後就結束了是這樣嗎可以安排到這麼樣的恰當嗎"},{"start":24372.686,"end":24396.326,"text":"然後我剛剛才特別提到說你把醫療機構寒帶診所都帶進來那我才說你看診所目前截至目前為止就健保國健署還沒有補助相關的這個篩檢的這個經費的時候你的那個量能是多少那你現在量是一定是銳減的啦這是現狀這是衝突的這是實際上可以預估到的情況"},{"start":24399.008,"end":24427.604,"text":"所以陳委要問我這個到底這個team多少當然還是依照現在的辦法去規範不過我會期待那個辦法是要修的啦不一樣是做不出去啦是這樣啦因為我們的母法沒有去動到他們要幾個人幾個人的問題沒有是這樣其實我們是想動但是這一關都沒有過就不用去想到下一關是這樣以上報告"},{"start":24432.695,"end":24436.139,"text":"我補充一下 目前我們核准的診所是154家"},{"start":24438.767,"end":24465.242,"text":"所以我會覺得是說過去我們一年多的準備其實就是希望能夠擴大從基層這邊連動到我們在社區裡面包括了居護所包括了一些心理治療所之間的一個連動所以我才會覺得是說其實現在都是努力的方向其實是不變只是是說這個新增的條文就是核准的機構"},{"start":24467.905,"end":24482.343,"text":"從醫療機構護理機構長照機構因為現在已經就是多團隊的合作的這一部分然後那其實那時候在做專家討論的時候像包括了護理機構其實就反應是說如果標注他們的時候他們的壓力會很大"},{"start":24483.024,"end":24510.027,"text":"他們覺得他們的臨床工作的那個狀況其實已經壓力很大的狀況之下的話他們其實是想要是說有外展團隊來這邊提供服務他們比較希望是以這樣的模式來進行所以才會經過7月21號的討論之後我們才會覺得是說譬如說像剛剛蘇偉元講的就是由醫療機構的諮商團隊然後外展到"},{"start":24512.025,"end":24535.515,"text":"那個所謂的護理機構或是廠照機構去提供這樣子的諮商服務其實就是可以做擴大量能的一個想法啦以上我這個可能要完整的請市長說明一下護理機構他怎麼會擔心把他框進去之後他馬上會增加他的量能然後造成"},{"start":24537.837,"end":24563.578,"text":"這個說法我覺得有點納悶你看你自己講100 現今調查診所協會 診所的部分才150幾家嘛對不對那你全國的診所是幾家所以我剛剛講說你講你不用講講幾家你跟委員會報告是你的爬線嘛 幾趴嘛對不對那也不可能開放護理師家 全部護理師家都要做 都會做啊所以他們在擔心什麼這個這個邏輯是什麼不太清楚 抱歉"},{"start":24564.824,"end":24588.37,"text":"我補充一下這個地方其實當天在與會的時候是因為是說只要法條上面有寫對這個護理之家而言他就會造成是說民眾就會說明明就可以做你為什麼不做所以他們而且很擔心是說督考裡面又加進去就造成了他的壓力所以在這一段上面而言他們就寧可希望是說"},{"start":24589.31,"end":24603.129,"text":"不要提及他們如果是外展服務的話以這樣子做做漸進式的一個合作他們覺得是比較容易達成未來的目標啦以上沒有啦 市長你這樣給我答案我會聽到越聽越難聽"},{"start":24606.894,"end":24633.342,"text":"你說好聽說叫做調整說到壞聽你就自己講自我矛盾的話語就同理可證對不對那你這麼講護理機構會有這樣的擔憂會被人家質疑挑戰你能做你為什麼不做那你診所協會診所不是診所協會對不起你診所可以做你為什麼到現在才100多家在做那些診所為什麼不被挑戰"},{"start":24635.287,"end":24662.3,"text":"而且你實行多久了呢第六年第七年了對不對你要不要跟我說啊這邏輯不通啦沒關係啦因為因為要三點半我們休息一下就好來 次長次長要說謝謝謝謝因為召委在座各位大家好其實我可以有嗎"},{"start":24663.787,"end":24681.932,"text":"我可以完全理解啦這個醫界當然有醫界的這個考慮不過其實像剛剛召委剛剛所說其實有量能上的問題嘛我現在是這樣我是說是不是可以嘗試啦看我們是不是很豐盛我們剛才那個王正修委員也有說嘛說說"},{"start":24683.892,"end":24704.839,"text":"我原則上是不是還是可以以這一個醫療機構就是剛剛說的我們現在剛剛蘇昭偉也有講到一個就是說經過醫事這邊的一個相關的一個認證等等這些可以派出去這是一個部分我們也目前也已經在做了"},{"start":24705.479,"end":24725.107,"text":"但是現在我們稍微也要關心的說我們是不是有量能的問題我們是不是也有其他的一些可能性我們是不是可以建立一個大家參考看看一個所謂雙軌制啦所謂雙軌制意思是說我們現在目前有Medical的部分那邊的話可能也是健保那邊有支付嘛剛才稍微也有說我們那個"},{"start":24729.09,"end":24742.423,"text":"180萬的那些我們就繼續進行但是像這邊比較像是就比較偏向像生命教育等等這些我們是不是也可以在我們這一個第九條這邊也把它融入"},{"start":24743.284,"end":24766.92,"text":"但是這個部分看要用什麼條文的方式來進行但是它可幾副方式剛剛好像王志勛委員有建議就是說我們就盡量從我們現在目前現有的一些有公務預算或者說自費也可以啊或等等這些方式先適行這種方式來進行就是說我們就兼容並蓄啦這第九條這邊已經已經有的"},{"start":24770.098,"end":24796.476,"text":"我們原條文的裡面已經有的部分我們繼續進行而且來而且最重要是要向召委所說我們要144這邊也要全力來推動但是呢另外有一個部分是比較屬於你剛才說的像那個心理治療所啦或者說比較屬於生命教育的部分我們是不是可以用其他經費的方式來支持是不是很方便"},{"start":24798.266,"end":24815.834,"text":"好 我的修正動議給請社長市長還有兩位委員再看一下啦基本上 大致上就成如社長所講的但是健康的人基本上他還是要自己付費啦好 這個反而我們是這個是要是王委員的智慧對啦"},{"start":24817.794,"end":24841.762,"text":"對阿你沒有去擴大這一個可以進來諮商的場域你怎麼有辦法去做到這些事情不可能嘛你全部要擠在醫療機構裡面那更不可能那個品質也不會好啦坦白講是這個樣子嘛到目前來請王委員建議休息幾分鐘我剛才要休息就刺長兄說他要再講不然他以前都會弄髒說他要先他今天要動很久他身體煩惱"},{"start":24848.633,"end":24849.52,"text":"好了好了"},{"start":27647.734,"end":27676.565,"text":"好不好意思休息這麼久因為一直少一位這個非常有愛心的委員那現在這個有愛心的委員到了叫林月琴委員我們大家鼓掌一下好不好謝謝好那我們在第9條先保留啦請這個議事是在提相關的這個文字修正我們在第三輪的時候再討論那接下來是不是來進行這個保留條文第10條"},{"start":27677.762,"end":27705.953,"text":"的處理好請行政機關表示意見第10條第10條的部分的話經過我們就是8月份的那個專家討論之後其實對於就是說第10條第2原本條文的第10條第2項"},{"start":27706.653,"end":27733.032,"text":"也就是說對於醫療委任代理人的消極資格的部分的話食物專家其實是覺得是說這個消極資格的取消其實是可以尊重委員會的討論因為食物上面到目前為止執行上面就算取消好像影響並不大所以就是可能對於執行醫療委任代理人這個概念有的宣導應該是有助益的所以這邊"},{"start":27734.012,"end":27748.49,"text":"其實我們會尊重委員會的討論然後那有一個是在這幾次的討論當中的話不管是王育民委員或者是德國委員針對醫療委任代理人或監護人的後面都加了一個監護人"},{"start":27749.731,"end":27763.742,"text":"然後專家會議的一個意見部裡面也覺得是說這個意見提供給委員們做參考是因為病毒法它想要強調的是醫療委任待人這個概念所以是不是能夠就是說"},{"start":27765.743,"end":27789.897,"text":"不要增加監護人這個概念來處理而是強調醫療委任代理人他的功能因為在原本的法律制度裡面監護人他在代理的幾乎都是生活照顧這部分很少會有就是說特別專門針對醫療委任代理人的部分以上好謝謝對不起這個也有王志俊委員所提的修正動議我們一併討論來請王委員"},{"start":27793.274,"end":27814.184,"text":"好 那剛剛市長跟大家報告有關於這個監護人在這個地方是不是能夠不要去修訂增加招委還有我也希望能夠把代監護人放進去這部分我是會覺得市長其實說的是也蠻有清楚的話"},{"start":27814.844,"end":27833.127,"text":"就是我們這個精神是希望是醫療委任代理人來協助跟監護人相對來講就不是那個太直接所以我會認同說我們還是用維持醫療委任代理人就可以把這個整個事情做得非常的完整"},{"start":27833.857,"end":27847.442,"text":"那另外我們的修正動議裡面是希望能夠把本來的條文裡面有三類不得為醫療委任代理人的這個部分做個調整"},{"start":27847.918,"end":27877.518,"text":"因為基本上包括第一款 醫院人是受疑症人第二款 醫院人遺體或器官指定是受症人 第三款 其他因醫院人死亡而獲得利益之人 那基本上其實對於這個簽署者來講是不會有任何把這個移除掉以後造成在他的權益上帶來的影響 我們不用擔心說如果因為這個醫院人死亡而獲得利益的話"},{"start":27878.418,"end":27904.458,"text":"基本上他生前會願意讓這一個醫院人死亡而獲得利益的這個對象一定是他信賴的人所以你現在我拿到的其實就沒有那個紓要性所以我們才會把這個三款的相關的這些不得為醫療代理人這樣做做調整就是不要再整列這部分那希望能夠得到大家的認同以上"},{"start":27906.055,"end":27930.047,"text":"好謝謝王委員還有其他意見嗎那如果沒有這邊簡單做一下補充這個我覺得王委員的這個修正還還還蠻不錯的因為這之前有所謂的那那第一項的那三款這個全部都就就拿掉了對不對應該"},{"start":27934.195,"end":27954.727,"text":"王委員是把這個部分全部取消掉因為這過去是有一些也是立法上的一些妥協跟爭議我這邊修正也是把它拿掉但是為什麼會多一個醫療委任代理人或監護人這邊補充說明然後看各位的意見怎麼樣就是說"},{"start":27957.049,"end":27972.656,"text":"這個醫療委內代理人必然是當事人這個十分信任的人那同時代理人是表達當事人在執行這個AD上的一個意願而且是不具有干預這個醫療行為及現場判斷所以這個基本上是沒有什麼道德風險的存在"},{"start":27973.757,"end":27984.742,"text":"那監護人應該也是同這個上述了 且這個監護人 這個各位再參考一下為什麼會把監護人再增加進去 監護人在民法上本來就符合醫療決議的資格"},{"start":27988.221,"end":28003.736,"text":"這個大家理解一下那本條件是賦予監護人在醫療委任代理人支持權只是將民法與病毒法的法規做一個整合避免這個醫療委任的代理人與監護人在醫療上這個決策在決策的醫療上發生了這個衝突跟焊隔"},{"start":28012.183,"end":28026.928,"text":"所以各位聽看看需不需要放進去這個我沒有特別的意見 只是過後當時的修正條文是有把這個清護冷放在這裡面的意義是在這個地方 當真的萬一有一天出了兩兆的時候有不一樣意見要怎麼辦"},{"start":28029.23,"end":28043.11,"text":"來請市長還是誰我補充一下讓我們承參就是我們在專家委員會在討論的時候其實食物界的專家們是希望是說既然病人自主權利法的話應該"},{"start":28045.753,"end":28068.782,"text":"貫徹醫療委任代理人這個概念啦以這樣子來講的時候其實就是當我們在討論病人自主的這一段的時候應該是以醫療委任代理人優先這樣的概念來處理因為或就變兩個平行比較容易引起漢格啦這是我們在那天專家委員會討論的時候反而覺得這樣會更引起比較引起誤解然後法規這邊的話我就跟我們家那個法規會"},{"start":28070.976,"end":28099.206,"text":"是跟各位報告就病人的權益在就醫的這一個部分跟這個病主法跟民法兩個來比較看起來病主法是一個特別的規定那特別的規定如果說單獨只有醫療委任代理人比較頭上的話不要把監護人放進來因為監護人可能是事後病人發生昏迷以後才去選定的"},{"start":28101.202,"end":28118.697,"text":"醫療代理人可能是在他清醒的時候選定的所以他可能比較清楚病人他當時的決定那監護人是事後選定的沒有經過病人的相關溝通他那時候的決定可能跟醫療委任代理人不同可能會造成兩個的衝突"},{"start":28120.236,"end":28145.263,"text":"那特別法既然規定說由醫療委任委任代理人來執行的話那可以排除到民法的適用這個是大家基本上看法OK好但是簽護人怎麼是後來才當然醫療委任代理人是在這個簽署AD之前嘛對不對"},{"start":28148.803,"end":28151.385,"text":"醫療人帶了人你剛因為我剛聽陳氏的講話對不對對啊監護人有可能嗎對對沒有錯啊嗯"},{"start":28186.142,"end":28200.628,"text":"來 請管委員是 有時候一種狀況因為理論上我們都希望這一位簽署ACP跟AD的這位都需要有一個醫療委任代理人"},{"start":28201.668,"end":28224.549,"text":"這個其實在執行的時候有時候他要搞那個他會有點困難我現在要找人一定要聽到完整才能夠做後續這個的確是有他的困難不過理論上他要簽署完整都必須要有所謂的醫療委任代理人這個人的存在他才會辦法完成這個可能將來我們也需要針對這一點再來做處理"},{"start":28226.931,"end":28244.321,"text":"現在如果他已經確定有醫療委任代理人的時候那跟監護人之間的競合就會造成困擾所以為什麼我們不希望說讓這個法條在同時存在著醫療委任代理人或監護人在處理過程當中帶來的這個會影響到"},{"start":28247.783,"end":28269.591,"text":"到時候執行萬一兩照意見不一致的時候那應該要聽誰的這樣的不好執行的一種現況所以如果我們既然已經確定他是在神智清楚的情形之下他已經有一個醫療委任代理人那我們就不需要有監護人來做這個事情來協同做這個事情以上好那各位有沒有其他意見"},{"start":28276.451,"end":28287.666,"text":"沒有沒關係 第10條我們就依照這個黃正訓委員的修正動議來通過了好不好好謝謝好謝謝那接下來我們處理第12條"},{"start":28291.034,"end":28318.911,"text":"請行政機關表示意見12條的部分的話王玉敏委員然後劉建國委員就是今天的在修正動議這邊的話我先補充一下第一件事情是在上次在諸條審議的時候有問我們是說如果原本原本的條文的第三項就是如果在註記的這一段的行政程序我先補充這一段"},{"start":28319.751,"end":28346.423,"text":"就我們經我們了解之後因為原本有手動手動的程序所以中間的簽完AD到註記在健保卡這邊的一個那個系統的時間要三天然後目前的話用自動借接預計十月會完成系統的借接就變成是每個小時交換註記資料所以就是說因為系統上面會在十月底之前就會修正完成"},{"start":28346.923,"end":28370.744,"text":"所以我們覺得是說在那個系統的修正的這部分其實是可以建議就是維持原條文然後對於新修正版本因為我們過去的都是由機構上傳機構上傳這邊的話會確認上傳資料的正確性包括了醫院人啊包括了我相關的最後的記錄這件事情"},{"start":28371.204,"end":28383.748,"text":"然後新的版本是由醫院人直接上傳的這件事情的話誰來做刊物的這一邊的的一個把關所以我們大概建議是說是不是能夠維持原條文以上好 行政官表示要維持建立原條文那我們有再提一個修正動議就是針對這個第二項裡面部分"},{"start":28397.256,"end":28415.45,"text":"有別於是這個原有修正條文是應先由第九條第一項第一款所列的機構或法人以掃描電子檔存記於中央主管機關資料庫或由醫院人上傳網路版預立預料決定書於中央主管機關資料庫"},{"start":28417.513,"end":28431.293,"text":"這個網路版的預立醫療決定書應經預立這個醫療照護諮商提供機構或法人數位簽署以獲這個第九條第一項第一款資核章證明規定"},{"start":28432.945,"end":28457.07,"text":"這個地球條還沒有修正這第一那第二這個可能要給市長各位做參考這個其實是自行上船的問題報稅也都可以自行上船各類補助現在很多的我們這個各單位都已經有開放給民眾自行在線上的執行所以這些作業應該不會因為這個線上"},{"start":28459.831,"end":28484.986,"text":"線上化而發生比資本時代更嚴重的品質問題我想這個應該是與時要俱進現在也推行無紙化的線上作業我想還是在系統跟審查機制所以剛剛市長有講到是你們的系統什麼時候可以10月底如果10月底可以的話修這個法應該就不會有什麼衝突吧"},{"start":28485.922,"end":28513.935,"text":"我要講的是說因為我們的網路版的獄力醫療決定其實還是醫療機構這邊要有戳記也就是說講白話就是醫療機構要有蓋章就是機構要蓋章要有機構章就表示這個文件是這個機構因為到時候有什麼問題的時候機構必須負責有管理的責任然後如果是醫院人上傳的話那個是還沒有確認過的那就傳上去的話"},{"start":28515.836,"end":28539.827,"text":"柯澤的客體會不一樣啦所以我們才會覺得是說對這一段有意願人上傳的這件事情有些疑慮啦以上我的這個修正動議的說明裡面有很清楚嗎你的華人數位簽章這網路版還有機構啦或華人數位簽章都有啊所以都可以做得到的事情這個有什麼問題嗎"},{"start":28545.56,"end":28566.193,"text":"因為現在就是說我們要講的是個人上傳跟機構上傳機構上傳的時候我們醫療法規有對醫療機構有苛責是說傳錯或是不實這邊的問題然後上傳是個人的這件事情的時候後面我的可苛責性會有問題啦我很難去"},{"start":28566.753,"end":28582.217,"text":"主張一些責罰因為我們的醫療法基本上面是處罰醫療機構跟醫事人員所以在這個法裡面如果由醫院來上傳的這件事情如果出錯這件事情可苛責性我們會有點疑慮以上"},{"start":28589.653,"end":28608.332,"text":"然後請上網委員我很認真聽到趙委員可能還會覺得怪怪的就是說我如果自己洗都用好洗了然後我按個鍵就傳出去了這個當然後面到底是誰來負責的處作到現在裡面有一些不是那麼"},{"start":28609.433,"end":28626.04,"text":"是確實的資料的話 那你上到雲端以後 什麼人可以幫你處理後面的問題那剛剛市長他所提出來一個問題是說他現在如果是去諮商的而且也完成了AD的簽署你認為說"},{"start":28627.02,"end":28644.689,"text":"理論上應該要有這個同意 整個簽署完成以後 要有一個簽章代表說這已經完成了所以這個東西完成之後通常都是一個document 都是一個paper嘛這paper就是政府 包括醫療機構 應該是醫療機構就會負責上傳嘛"},{"start":28646.75,"end":28670.268,"text":"我們現在執行是這樣 稍微意思是說如果大家都說好了透過網路系統直接傳去就好了可是如何去讓這個章可以核實這些規定我們現在目前的這個網路有沒有辦法做到這一點如果技術上可以克服的話基本上是可以啦問題就是說"},{"start":28671.329,"end":28692.545,"text":"如果他是去ACP又完成了ADE理論上他應該是在那個單位在那個機構他需不需要要重新又回去說我自己回來做需不需要有這個流程當然新科技是可以解決一些問題可是從我們這個流程來看新科技要幫到這一部分好像除非我們有改變整個流程的設計不然其實是"},{"start":28694.847,"end":28722.407,"text":"不需要讓這一位醫院人又重新自己根據我要用新科技 我覺得得到這個新科技帶來的這個生活上的幫助 又做了這個部分這樣好像只是重複做了本來他可以在原機構做的事情他回去用這個新科技去完成這樣感覺很鬆懈啦 不過是不是有實際幫忙就不知道 可是他可能會漏掉的就是說那個簽章核實那部分要怎麼確定"},{"start":28730.075,"end":28749.83,"text":"你不補充 你的疑慮不補充你說有點疑慮 有點可以說明一下我們講的有點疑慮其實就是在機構裡面看完也就是做完預列醫療諮商之後其實我們需要機構去做一個最後的確認確認之後其實醫療機構就直接上傳"},{"start":28750.791,"end":28770.839,"text":"然後我們現在是上傳那邊到健保註記這邊要手動所以卡住所以中間有三天的一個落差所以才會是說就流程而言其實醫院人的自己上傳這件事情對於整個流程裡面的幫助並不大而且可科則性也有問題所以我們才會是說有點疑慮以上"},{"start":28782.156,"end":28789.14,"text":"各位再看一下第12條的第1項 中央主管機關應將預歷醫療決定註記於全民健康保險憑證這個法條是第1條的開通名是這樣那至於怎麼樣讓這個簽署預歷醫療決定書的的意願人可以更"},{"start":28806.927,"end":28829.394,"text":"更簡便的方式 這是行政機關要去思考的問題 應該是這樣然後這個簽署AD最多是希望善終 只是這個又有牽涉到因為第一項 是不是有牽涉到變更的部分 沒有"},{"start":28842.455,"end":28862.532,"text":"這要先保留好不好來接下來處理第十對不起處理第十四條請行之機關表示意見"},{"start":28865.189,"end":28879.265,"text":"14條的部分的話就王育民委員或者是劉建國委員在今天的一個修正就是修正裡面我們對於就是說在"},{"start":28882.348,"end":28898.235,"text":"而新增的部分就是醫療機構或醫師對前開診斷會照會員不得無故拒絕這個因為實際上面在臨床實務上面已經在運作了所以我們會覺得是說這一段似乎是"},{"start":28899.295,"end":28920.396,"text":"建議維持我們母法的條文然後再來的部分的話其實是最後一項做的修正是說醫療機構或醫師依本條規定終止測除或不施行維持生命治療或人工營養及流體餵養不負形式"},{"start":28921.517,"end":28949.478,"text":"行政或民事責任就民眾權益的保障的部分的話我們自己覺得是說原本條文是除有故意或重大過失且違反病人預例醫療決定者外的這部分寫的這樣子範圍比較明確或許在醫病雙方的保障裡面特別是對病人權益的維護裡面我們覺得原本的條文會不會是比較好的所以是建請是說在"},{"start":28951.779,"end":28971.787,"text":"這個條文的部分是不是可以維持原條文以上然後對於針對就是說還有一個不好意思就是說在針對就是永久植物人狀態或永久最低意識狀態的這部分的話我們部裡面這邊就尊重專家的跟委員會的這邊的討論"},{"start":28973.367,"end":28984.219,"text":"只要有兩位醫師做一些確診其實在這樣子的一個程序下面的話對於永久最低意識狀態應該是在執行上面沒有什麼困擾 以上好 委員有其他意見嗎"},{"start":28992.355,"end":29009.952,"text":"沒有沒有這個行政機關是希望建立流營的條文對不對然後修正一個在第一項的第三款的部分有一個叫永久植物人狀況或永久最低意識狀態"},{"start":29011.607,"end":29036.814,"text":"這個我修正都也有這個但是上面這個還是原有的第一項裡面第一項裡面原條是因為我們要配合第八條剛剛這個第二項修正就是全部或一部你還是要改要改所以在第一項裡面我們才會會改為或臨床醫療過程中書面明示之意識表示終止"},{"start":29042.399,"end":29061.352,"text":"簡單說第一個先處理這個全部或一部第二個就是為了讓病人當下醫院迅速獲得這個尊重修正第一項增列臨床醫療過程中宿命意識的表示亦得作為終止、撤除或不施作LOST或ANH的依據"},{"start":29062.973,"end":29075.627,"text":"我想這個應該更有強化的作用然後第一項的第三款就誠如市長所講的沒有意見然後再來第三款"},{"start":29077.481,"end":29085.887,"text":"對 第三項 對不起就前項各款應由兩位具相關專科醫師資格之醫師確診並經緩和醫療團隊這個照會確認醫療機構或醫師對於前開診斷與照會義務不得無故拒絕這個 增加這個也應該是更 法律更明確"},{"start":29109.27,"end":29110.397,"text":"这个有什么问题吗"},{"start":29115.44,"end":29142.288,"text":"我們這邊的意見會尊重委員會的討論只是說在跟醫界這邊在做一些溝通的時候大家都專家們是覺得說這是在食物上面其實就是這樣啦增不增新增條文其實好像對於實際上面的效益這邊好像並沒有很明確的有注意所以就是說增不增加這件事情在食物界這邊覺得好像關係不大以上"},{"start":29146.621,"end":29163.338,"text":"好啦 你要這麼講我都沒有意見啦好啦 集齊啦 集齊啦好啦 我也集齊你那個第三款啦好啦 那火熊齊齊 好那我們就照修正 同意後通過然後還有一個最後一項最後一項民視那個是不是對好"},{"start":29164.475,"end":29180.93,"text":"原有就是原條文是原條文是這個對不起醫療機構一是依本條規定終止廁所或不施行維持生命治療或人工餵養及流體餵養之全部或一部"},{"start":29182.651,"end":29204.461,"text":"對 然後 負形式以這個行政責任因此所生之損害 除有故意或重大過失 且違反病人預理醫療決定者不負賠償責任我們就把他改為醫療機構或醫師醫本條例終止 撤除或不施行 維持生命自體或人工營養及流體餵養不負形式行政與民事責任這樣夠了嗎"},{"start":29213.16,"end":29231.005,"text":"我們會覺得是說我先講一下立法理由這部分主要是因為在這個執行過程中產生的傷害如果是故意或重大過失其實必須負賠償責任這件事情對病人權益的保障可能比較好以上的補充"},{"start":29232.85,"end":29253.328,"text":"因為委員兩個不管是哪個委員的版本其實是直接補負的這邊的話如果是有故意故意或重大過失這一邊的話其實這個就直接是做所謂的就沒有相關的責任我可以把這一段也給我們那個法規委員這邊做一個補充好 請說明"},{"start":29255.291,"end":29272.559,"text":"市長講的看起來應該對啊因為就是發生事情的時候如果有故意或重大過失的時候家屬還可以追究啊但是現在如果修正條文看起來都是都不用了反正他就是依照醫療遺囑去執行統統不用負責任了"},{"start":29273.579,"end":29286.107,"text":"那這個難保其中有孤幼重大過世這種情形嗎有這種情形的時候應該容許家屬去進行他的權力救濟所以看起來原條文是比較優勒因為我們之前的原條文是特別去提到"},{"start":29297.253,"end":29316.881,"text":"去提到這個故意跟故意跟不是故意的情況所以就用這個用這個文字來把它要做這樣的一個一個確認但是話又講回來我們現在改為就直接改為叫做醫療機構一是因本條規定中止醫本條他遵守這個病毒法的法條"},{"start":29318.482,"end":29338.193,"text":"相關的規定去終止跟撤除或不施行維持生命的治療或人工的營養及流體餵養不戶型施行證與民事責任這個也理所當然了我醫師跟醫療機構是遵守這部法律在執行你說原有的條文是在講說"},{"start":29343.208,"end":29361.216,"text":"你看我再讀一次文字再讀一下會比較清楚醫療機構或醫師依本條規定終止撤除或不施行維持生命治療或人工餵養直流體餵養能夠營養直流體餵養全部或一部"},{"start":29362.878,"end":29387.037,"text":"不負刑事或行政責任這是跟我們簡化的那個文字就差一個差一個名字嗎好差一個名字好因此所生他因為因為這邊才這邊是分號嗎好因為這樣因此所生之損害除有故意除有故意或重大過失的且違反病人遇力醫療決定者外不負賠償責任"},{"start":29399.704,"end":29415.731,"text":"剛剛委員 昭緯這邊有特別講到原條文其實是針對民事這一塊的話就是如果有故意或重大過失且違反病人醫療決定者的話其實家屬這邊還是有求償的一個機制存在"},{"start":29416.371,"end":29438.021,"text":"然後如果照目前就是修正版本的條文的話直接就是連民事責任直接違比掉的話我們會覺得相對而言在病毒法這邊本來就強調的是病方跟醫方相對權利都要受到保障所以我們才會覺得是說建議是不是能夠在最後一項的部分的話是維持原條文以上好委員有沒有其他意見"},{"start":29447.09,"end":29447.981,"text":"我这树是在秋月里"},{"start":29460.843,"end":29485.718,"text":"的確因為不曉得之前實務上有碰過相關因為這個樣子的造成的困擾或執行上的困難其實寫這些基本上就是希望能夠讓大家知道當我們在做生命自主選擇的時候如果出現往後一些處理起來讓大家覺得是不是醫療機構沒有盡到該有的醫療責任"},{"start":29489.66,"end":29508.334,"text":"是因為是執行當中的落差造成的那這的確是有一些難以確認的地方那如果是依照現在在看的是5月18號的會議裡面的現行條文跟修正條文"},{"start":29509.255,"end":29523.71,"text":"那陷阱條文的確是最後寫違反病人預立醫療決定者外不負賠償責任就是說有違反那這違反到時候是誰要來決定它是否違反"},{"start":29525.732,"end":29540.325,"text":"醫療機構當然不會說他自己違反會去希望能夠說醫療機構有違反的應該是他的家人通常這個病人已經離開了所以到底怎麼來判定是我違反"},{"start":29540.985,"end":29570.445,"text":"因為當初他如果已經是確立好他要怎麼做我們就是依照醫療機構就是依照這個醫院者他所制定的這些期待依照他的要求做了該有的醫療處置基本上應該是沒有違反的問題所以如果會違反可能就是家屬造成的那如果他家屬認為說是醫療機構違反了他當然有權利提出訴訟或要求"},{"start":29571.125,"end":29588.218,"text":"那如果進入到訴訟的話那怎麼去判定是我違反這個當然是另外要處理的問題那我們這樣定的話當然對於醫院來講或者是對於這個家屬來講他比較能夠保護他的權益"},{"start":29588.778,"end":29614.386,"text":"可是如果我們的商會法其實是希望能夠讓這個意願者能夠得到他當初所制定的意願的話基本上真的是沒有這個困難才對所以我覺得如果修正成為新的部分就是醫療機構或醫師依照本條規定中止撤告等等不負形式"},{"start":29615.686,"end":29640.979,"text":"行政及民事責任的話這是相對是更具體的只是不要說他是違反責任就要去被糾纏這樣子所以我會比較贊成說是不是再確認一下如果用新的版本可以涵掛到原來而且又可以免除這個違反本身帶來的困擾的話新版本似乎是比較能夠具體的呈現這個當初"},{"start":29642.882,"end":29646.015,"text":"病毒法這一條這個追捕法的精神以上"},{"start":29647.575,"end":29673.424,"text":"我這樣說明應該更清楚比我說明更清楚其實應該是要明確就是說當醫師醫療機構依照病史法在執行的時候其實他不會有故意的事情發生對不對如果真的有故意事情發生坦白講也不是在這個法條上可以處理的那是直接是刑案的部分那當然還有一個叫做重大的過失這個原有去訂這個條文的內容"},{"start":29675.438,"end":29702.458,"text":"他可能是他當然還是屬於一個醫療的行為但是這種醫療行為是我們用特別法來規範其實他的前提是講說醫療機構或醫師依本條規定終止本條規定終止廁所或不施行維持生命治療或人工養及流體人工養及流體養不負行政及民事責任其實這句話這個法律定義是沒問題的"},{"start":29706.257,"end":29714.453,"text":"但是你如果要focus在原有的法條你就會套用在他可能會有重大過失他可能會有過失他可能會故意"},{"start":29719.215,"end":29736.393,"text":"基本上面我們部裡面是提醒啦然後所以是說委員會的討論我們會尊重啦關於這一點因為其實病毒法最重要的其實就會希望是說能夠促進醫病關係和諧然後確保病人的善中的權益這是它的立法的主旨啦"},{"start":29736.973,"end":29757.528,"text":"所以對這個程序問題的部分的話我們只是解釋一下當初的立法的一個宗旨然後那經過委員的討論部裡面這邊我們其實是尊重委員會的最後的決定以上好 謝謝那各位我們是不是依照這個修正動議來通過可以了好 謝謝來繼續處理第第16條之一"},{"start":29767.33,"end":29769.814,"text":"16條之一 請行政機關表示意見"},{"start":29777.934,"end":29799.487,"text":"16條之一的話是因為目前的不管是王育民委員或者是劉建國委員的版本裡面主要是因為我們目前所有的關於相關的預算跟經費其實都是滾動式的修正所以是說到目前為止有一些政策的演繹我們都覺得是說都還在滾動式的修正當中"},{"start":29799.907,"end":29817.656,"text":"比如說健保署我們7月的時候把住院納入ACP納入然後今年的5月1號又擴大了適用的對象所以在推動的過程當中我們預計到長照3.0的時候其實也會有育立醫療決定諮商的一個推廣獎勵"},{"start":29818.797,"end":29839.982,"text":"所以也因為這樣子所以我們才覺得是說對於16條之一這樣子寫進來的話我覺得在我們目前的執行上面會有困難所以建議是不是不予修正以上好新政機關針對新政的部分建立不予修正來請委員表示意見"},{"start":29860.643,"end":29861.149,"text":"就成立了"},{"start":29882.884,"end":29897.946,"text":"主席 這是根據需要來新增就是有關健保給付的部分因為原本立法的時候是沒有涉及到這個費用是否有健保給付"},{"start":29898.727,"end":29927.217,"text":"不過現在實務上在執行已經有納為健保給付依照規定的話是可以有一個這樣的執行模式的話所以看起來16條之一目前新增的必要性相對是像在沒有在5月1號之前那麼廣泛執行的這個狀況所以我會贊成剛剛市長的報告內容認為可以不需要在這個時候增加16條之一以上"},{"start":29929.844,"end":29934.799,"text":"好 謝謝 那我想會去還有其他委員意見嗎"},{"start":29936.089,"end":29961.135,"text":"沒有好就簡單補充這個修法的這樣的一個目的當然這個第十條第十六條之一是來對照十條就是說應該醫療照護諮商的時候這個確診或是照護整個程序會用幾戶上需這個政策還有研議這個預算的一個規劃他特別要去釐清是否屬於這個"},{"start":29963.235,"end":29976.421,"text":"這個醫療行為 健保署幾乎坦白講那就是明確的醫療行為 應該是這麼說那中央局管機關對這個理由的一個意見 我想"},{"start":29982.408,"end":29996.31,"text":"應該用什麼角度講其實在5月要擴充到180萬的時候這個其實是要肯定這個衛福部肯定相關的單位願意積極來做這件事情那我們怎樣"},{"start":29997.028,"end":30011.436,"text":"就是還是要增加那個完成的簽署AD的量能才是重中之重那當然也要兼顧到品質我們一直還是期待他這個六年來的一趴是不是隔年就可以變成"},{"start":30013.257,"end":30031.506,"text":"增加到N%以上這是我們的一個期待所以才會想說用第16條之一來針對這個預算的一個相關的一些支應由從陽主管機關的來編列這個相關預算來支應不管是在哪一個部分 不過剛剛第9條我們在討論的時候"},{"start":30032.847,"end":30045.127,"text":"我們當然是針對健保該給予去處理然後這個健康的醫院人他就屬於這個自行來給予嘛這自負來這些智商的會用"},{"start":30049.082,"end":30066.789,"text":"沒關係好不好 我們這條就先行保留了 因為這搭配第9條到時候可以再一併來做一些討論 請黃委員照這樣說明因為在第9條裡面如果是用雙軌的精神的話 一部分是健保"},{"start":30066.969,"end":30095.032,"text":"那健保是如果在16條之一有新增的話是在第二款那如果說我們針對於在第9條裡面雙軌裡面不是用健保支付的這些需求那是用什麼樣的方式來編列預算包括用公務預算或是用智慧的方式那導致在第16條之一的第一項似乎是有他的需要存在"},{"start":30095.993,"end":30107.772,"text":"所以就是剛剛聽趙偉這樣說明以後我覺得第四六條之一的這個第一項的確它是有需要存在的假設它將來需要供入預算的話以上"},{"start":30109.014,"end":30135.551,"text":"對 因為如果說我們完成了這個地球修正之後也要看執行的狀態到時候當然也有執行面的問題還是剛剛有特別討論在協商的時候討論到底辦法怎麼去去明定跟MUA來做一個契合這個還是最後的一個也是要有一個期程來看整個執行的情況所以這個可能就是一個事先的"},{"start":30136.38,"end":30142.649,"text":"一個未雨綢繆的一個規劃我覺得也不是一件壞事好不好 我們先保留好 接下來處理第17條"},{"start":30147.853,"end":30174.898,"text":"再請機關做說明17條那時候保留的理由是因為14條對然後然後所以那時候是因為14條保留的關係所以17條保留然後現在14條其實已經有決議了所以所以我們這邊沒有其他的意見以上好所以17條各位有沒有其他意見沒有了那我們17條就通過照對不起照這個修正原修正條文來通過好謝謝"},{"start":30180.08,"end":30197.327,"text":"好 我們第二輪結束 那我們現在就要不要休息一下看網友好像 希望休息一下好 好 謝謝 不好意思 好 休息五分鐘啦 好不好好 感謝 謝謝"},{"start":30508.695,"end":30508.814,"text":"字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":30786.299,"end":30786.9,"text":"我等一下還你"},{"start":30979.103,"end":30979.204,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":31047.068,"end":31050.599,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":31094.88,"end":31104.431,"text":"對,我們剛剛自己那部,我覺得很沒問題啦。對啊,你不急,我們很急啊。你們很急,你們找我自己寫的。找我的小事就是我們的大事啊。對啊,沒有啦,不要罵人啊。對啊。要不要聽歌啊?要不要聽歌啊?要不要聽歌啊?"},{"start":31146.108,"end":31152.773,"text":"謝謝 委員會這邊宣告本次的會議我們就延到整個處理完成"},{"start":31156.24,"end":31175.399,"text":"不會了OK你不用擔心好謝謝請坐請坐你沒有坐我們沒辦法進行您最有愛心的好我們現在進行第三輪謝謝那保留條文是第八條"},{"start":31177.383,"end":31200.677,"text":"第8條這個部分我再簡單 容我再做一個說明第8條這個完全具行為能力跟具行為能力基本上這個只是更精準的一個用詞譴制各位如果還有意見我們還是一樣可以保留還是說要照這個我們所提的這個修正動議的文字各位表示意見"},{"start":31211.071,"end":31233.23,"text":"這邊補充說明因為當時在立法之初是希望成年且具有行為能力者才能擔任這個醫療委任代理人但醫院只要具有完全行為能力即可這是考量到未成年的已婚者那具完全行為能力這個意思是沿用安寧條例101年的版本用語"},{"start":31234.431,"end":31248.117,"text":"然後因此在本法立法當時的時候是有關於這個議院人及醫療委任帶領的行為能力用於就有所不同所以原始的第八條之一是具完全行為能力之人"},{"start":31248.996,"end":31274.91,"text":"得為預理醫療決定那10至1則是醫院人指定醫療委任代理人應以20歲以上且具行為能力之人為限那108年修法時第10條之1改成現在的醫院人指定醫療委任代理人應以成年且具行為能力之人為限但到"},{"start":31278.695,"end":31306.981,"text":"這個112年的時候民華修法之後好像沒有太大意義所以如果因為這個現行的民華非成年就是18歲以下不可能不可能為具行為能力之人所以我們在這邊建立說大家如果很在意這個行為能力的用語以及一致性的問題那就將這個第8條之一還有第9條之一之後的見證人以及10至1的這個醫療文件代理人通通改為具行為能力之人"},{"start":31308.897,"end":31311.579,"text":"這樣是不是就可以解決大家的擔憂跟疑慮可以嗎"},{"start":31323.038,"end":31344.6,"text":"主席我是贊成那個主席剛剛的說明就是包括說如果用現有的比較能夠完整把不管是民法或者是現在條例裡面具行為能力之人已經可以涵掛到我們希望讓這一部法律在執行的時候"},{"start":31345.838,"end":31369.313,"text":"這個主體很明確 而且也事實上是有涵掛到目前我們要規範的這個對象的話 我是覺得用具有神力 具有行為能力的人已經足夠以上 那另外那個醫院已經處理好 我們就就不用再處理了 以上好 謝謝王委員 這樣可以啦行政機關沒有意見啦好 沒意見"},{"start":31369.912,"end":31397.535,"text":"好 那第8條我們就照這個原流的修正條文來通過謝謝 繼續處理第9條 保留條文第9條第9條部分我可不可以直接建議保留 好對 因為我們還要再著修一些文字 好啦 OK好 給各位再一些時間好 如果網友沒意見就保留 OK"},{"start":31398.618,"end":31420.909,"text":"那繼續處理保留條文第12條好 第8條再重新宣告 第8條是依照劉建國委員等 對吧還有王允美委員所提的這個修正條文通過 好 謝謝提案通過 對"},{"start":31428.993,"end":31458.365,"text":"來現在是第12條第12條行事機關要不要再表示意見我們是建議是說有意願上傳這一段是建議不要新修正有意願人上傳這一段其他的部分我們沒有意見"},{"start":31460.768,"end":31482.453,"text":"就是不新增意願能上傳不新增意願能上傳 對 其他沒意見其他沒意見還是建議保留 這樣比較快OK 好"},{"start":31486.276,"end":31497.241,"text":"來第12條保留最後一條是16條之一就一起保留因為第9條保留嘛OK好那16條一樣一併保留就連動到第9條好謝謝"},{"start":31515.944,"end":31536.475,"text":"好 現在做以下決議 病人自主權利法 部分條文修正草案等5案審查完略那病案凝聚審查報告提報院會討論 那院會討論討論本案時 由劉昭祺委員見過補充說明那請問本案是我須交由黨人協商要啦 OK 好 謝謝 那要交由黨人協商好"},{"start":31539.386,"end":31553.116,"text":"那本法案如有原理條次法制用於調整授權議事人員調整相關立法說明授權行政機關提供那本的會議到此結束現在散會好謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":31576.514,"end":31576.683,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}