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度越清楚孩子才越安全那標準的越明確我覺得專業判斷才能夠事實上是穩定的首先我要來談的是兒少保護跟收出養之間的銜接問題從這次事件所呈現的整個制度樣貌來看的話兒少保護個案在進入收出養服務後會同時涉及到政府端"},{"start":96.084,"end":122.335,"text":"跟民間機構兩個不同的系統那政府的社福中心原本掌握的事實上是家庭脆弱性跟我們的保護的風險而收出養就聚焦在所謂的媒合跟我們的出養的準備那這兩套工作邏輯本質上就是不相同的可是如果中間沒有一個整合機制的話孩子的風險就可能會在這種制度的縫隙當中凱凱案發生之後"},{"start":124.176,"end":152.402,"text":"我也很努力的推動修法以及參與我們的討論會議後目前制度我知道有調整了也就是兒少保護跟收出養的業務原則上是已回到各縣市政府的社福中心來主責執行可是實務上還是存在一個關鍵的模糊點這兩項業務是否是同一組別因為過去我們不管是看培羅米達案如果同樣都是政府部門可是只要分屬不同的組那可能"},{"start":153.122,"end":181.355,"text":"中間就是還是會有漏掉的那個狀況所以不是說我今天回到政府就沒有問題沒有跨到民間單位就沒有問題是不是真的是在同一個組別甚至同一個社工負責其實我看起來沒有一個很明確的一致的那個制度設計也就是說即使同在公部門的體系我們的風險資訊是不是能夠完整的被承接跟延續還是有很多不確定性所以想問部長是說"},{"start":184.184,"end":207.252,"text":"目前兒少保護個案在進入出養的流程的時候有沒有建立一套的標準化的風險轉移的那個移轉機制包括原本兒保的風險案中的風險評估家庭背景啊照顧風險以及孩子的醫療身心狀況是不是能夠完整的且一致性的被移交或者是公安合作"},{"start":210.273,"end":236.165,"text":"謝謝委員的指教在回答您的這個問題之前我也想藉這個機會公開的給我們全國的社工人員打氣我想社工跟我們所有的醫事人員一樣都擔負著救死扶傷那麼面臨的狀況跟條件都是多元複雜而且經常都有它的緊急性所以在過去我們也因為醫事人員的這種特殊"},{"start":237.425,"end":253.764,"text":"這個工作的特殊性修訂了醫療法82條去明訂了那麼這個醫事人員在過程當中那麼如果有一些不如預期的結果那麼是以故意過失且違反了注意義務跟"},{"start":255.826,"end":272.941,"text":"專業考量財富形式跟民事的責任那我想社工特別是保護社工也好或者是我們很多的這些脆弱家庭協助的這個情況跟醫事人員其實相當的類似他們所面臨的挑戰"},{"start":274.122,"end":297.23,"text":"不確定性跟它的急迫性經常是有的所以我們也很希望這個各界給予我們社工支持那麼對於這個法律見解上那麼我們也在明天會邀請很多的專家大家共同來討論那更重要的是在我們兒照"},{"start":299.29,"end":320.759,"text":"現行的兒少法裡面第五條也很清楚的去明定當兒少遭受不法權益侵犯的時候那麼國家是負協助跟保護的責任也就是說這個是國家的責任這個完全是正確的那麼因此透過"},{"start":322.239,"end":336.909,"text":"每一次的不幸個案的討論跟改善來提升我們對兒少所以從這個案子發生之後這個案子最主要是脆弱家庭跟收出養這個中間有一個gap"},{"start":339.731,"end":369.231,"text":"那過去呢 收出養呢那麼不見得是由地方政府介入它可以透過這個收出養的媒合機構所以在這個事件之後呢我們已經重新調整同時也入法未來在這個收出養的過程當中呢那麼地方政府必須扮演一定的角色那麼包含這中間如果涉及到安置的時候也要走入安置的程序當然這裡面最重要的還有一塊就是因為跨體系或跨系統或跨區域"},{"start":369.611,"end":387.721,"text":"所以資訊的串接是非常重要所以在這個事件之後我們也已經建立了脆弱家庭的一個資訊平台那另外社安網也去嘗試串連34個系統那麼就是希望讓這個資訊能夠串接的不要漏接"},{"start":389.101,"end":411.869,"text":"資訊能夠串接的好那至於說人員上剛剛您特別提到是不是要固定一組我想這個我們再跟地方因為這個過去都是地方分工啦他怎麼樣分工的問題我們再來持續的來討論部長我想你剛回應我覺得也很重要所以可能給你"},{"start":413.11,"end":432.507,"text":"這邊兩個建議第一個是不是針對於制度到底清不清楚這些東西甚至對於我覺得這次的事情引起我覺得社工界一直長期以來擔負這麼多社會問題來協助政府去解決的時候應該要讓他們相對應的事實上是被"},{"start":433.715,"end":459.765,"text":"能夠去有資源去到位的去協助他們所以我建議是不是應該接下來我覺得衛福部應該要去傾聽社工的聲音能不能召開北中南東的一個座談也好論壇也好讓大家把他們過去現在碰到的問題地方政府和中央政府甚至他們在民間碰到的一些問題可以跟你們畢竟你是中央最高的主管機關"},{"start":460.726,"end":477.568,"text":"來做處理那後邊呢我們也希望說能夠來討論制度我覺得這才是真正解決一直以來沒有很明確的東西然後只是講說那丟進去去做然後呢做了之後當發生問題的時候你要社工去承擔我覺得這坦白講"},{"start":478.709,"end":497.33,"text":"沒有一個明確的指引的時候然後看誰比較不幸的碰到一些事情的時候要去承擔我覺得不是一件好事所以我今天為什麼會去問這個收支局長我也希望說你們不會因為回到政府部門之後這中間如果沒有連接的話還是同樣問題不好意思今天我就會花比較長的時間就是"},{"start":499.733,"end":517.962,"text":"第二個問題就是你的一組織多協力在實務上的運作我一直看不懂因為社安網長期長調一組織多協力這方向是正確的可是關鍵在於這套機制是否真的能夠到決策的層次如果你講我組織我醫療組織我就組織嗎你講我社政組織我就組織嗎你講我警政組織我就組織嗎如果我不組織的話誰會對我怎麼樣 不會甚至你叫我這個社工組織"},{"start":527.046,"end":533.591,"text":"那我就主責嗎如果我不主責會怎麼樣所以我覺得這個我真的看不懂說那到底為什麼誰規定了誰主責那最後就是什麼很願意承擔的人去主責主責如果發生事情的時候他還要去承擔更多的責任義務所以我不太懂"},{"start":547.78,"end":568.825,"text":"一直以來每次在處理這個所以我想請教部長在兒少保護跟收出養的案件當中組織單位的權限範圍目前該怎麼去界定醫療教育警政司法心理衛生跟民間團體等協力單位在什麼樣的狀況之下要實際介入這些協力單位是只提供資訊嗎還是要參與共同評估跟決策"},{"start":569.645,"end":598.196,"text":"可是最後就是認真的人好像你去做了然後最後就是你去承擔所以如果協力單位都沒有機師回應甚至沒有做一些決議執行的時候有沒有追蹤回報或者處理機制那他不回報我們也沒關係嗎反正那到底誰規定了這個主責那他就要去承擔什麼樣的責任對高風險的案件如何建立跨體系的共同決策的流程明確的規範召集機制參與對象跟後續的責任這些都有定嗎"},{"start":599.136,"end":618.917,"text":"有很清楚的讓誰知道我甚至我要進一步的去緊張衛福部去年7月就已經提出來一組織多協力的分工原則可顯然最大的問題是我們到底要怎麼讓制度從原則走向實際可操作的流程好 跟委員說明這有兩點第一個組織不代表所有的責任都是他"},{"start":620.138,"end":635.826,"text":"因為很多的個案需要跨域的合作所以各自要本期他的責任去完成並不是說主責的就是所有的成敗或所有的責任他一個人扛 並不是這樣第二個 因為在社安網裡頭我們的對象很廣 我的報告裡面對象很廣"},{"start":643.149,"end":660.53,"text":"那麼他可能有一些是精神個案有些是脆弱家庭有些是這個保護個案那有些是要酒飲那個都有不同的所以我們所講的一組折多協議期的概念是說他可能有不同的category"},{"start":661.05,"end":676.983,"text":"那但是進來之後大家要一起幫忙啦對那這個大家一起幫忙大家一起幫忙的時候怎麼辦呢有誰可以誰是主要的那個上頭的那個要我主責然後我主責我要去協力其他人的時候其他人不配合我的時候我怎麼辦我如果這個社工我怎麼辦我怎麼去做處理"},{"start":681.026,"end":700.077,"text":"似乎沒有一個這樣那就是自己持續做下去所以第三個問題就要來問的是說那這次的整個的我覺得社工的工作範圍跟責任分工是什麼如果這次現行的制度發展已經讓社工在某些情境上被納入保證人地位的"},{"start":700.957,"end":719.147,"text":"這樣的討論的話我們就必須更清楚的回答一個問題在這樣的法律框架下社工的工作範圍跟責任分工究竟是你是如何界定的因為目前最大的困境在於社工的實務工作高度多元包含兒少保護啊最後家庭的服務啊 收出養啊居家托育啊各自的工作內容"},{"start":719.787,"end":744.993,"text":"介入的深度跟可運用權限都有很大差異可是在責任認定上這些差異是否有被清楚的反應那事實上是有落差的所以如果工作範圍沒有被制度化說明的話責任界限又透過個案事後的解讀來界定的話就容易出現一個問題同樣的職務在不同案件中可能被賦予不同責任標準導致第一線沒有辦法建立穩定的專業判斷所以想問部長"},{"start":747.513,"end":775.423,"text":"衛福部是不是會進一步去釐清不同類型的社工業務的工作範圍權限邊界跟責任內容並建立可供實務跟司法共同參考的標準這個專業範圍確實不容易完全界定但是我們盡有可能的去發展一些指引這個其實跟醫療很像就是盡量有一些指引那麼來作為我們在專業執行上的一個參據但是也不可能完全"},{"start":776.263,"end":791.88,"text":"就是非常僵化的只有指引那這樣我們會漏失掉很多因為這專業的部分就是會按照這個個案當時候的情形要去做彈性的調整所以我們盡可能的把一些常見的樣態跟"},{"start":794.643,"end":814.245,"text":"經常性的工作這個內容把它變成一個指引的方式特別是在涉及人身安全風險的案件當中應該界定那個應注意的範圍和不同職務之間的責任分工應該有更具體的制度化的我覺得這次事情結束了還是沒有解決社工的"},{"start":815.506,"end":844.757,"text":"壓迫感然後呢不確定性所以像剛剛提到以這個個案來講呢我們就有收出養的這個辦法的修訂嘛那裡面也有一些收出養的指引那另外呢這個收收出養的這個必要性評估格式我們也重新檢討這些其實都是在去協助界定這個專業應該要執行的部長我還是建議真的要請聽基層社工他們到底焦慮的是什麼這案子到底"},{"start":846.042,"end":872.414,"text":"對愛帶來的衝擊是什麼我很同意因為不是說你講制度定好可是過去也是制度定好為什麼還是有這些要知道他們面對到的困境到底是什麼才能真正解決問題那最後就是二十套保護跟收出跟安置跟寄養的有本質上都是高風險且高度不確定的專業服務在這樣的工作情境下我覺得制度是不是能夠足夠的做風險支持是必須正式的問題"},{"start":873.474,"end":898.857,"text":"所以專業責任保險並不是免責啦更不是替任何人卸責而是在這高風險的公共服務當中國家是不是能夠建立合理的風險分擔的機制所以想問部長目前在兒少保護跟收出養服務當中是不是有專業責任保險或類似的風險分擔的那個制度當第一線能源遭遇到植物遭遇到"},{"start":899.737,"end":923.163,"text":"民行事程序的時候有沒有法律諮詢 訴訟協助或者是專業鑑定的一個支持體制好 跟委員說明 目前當然我們對社工我們是有團保啦不過最主要是針對一些意外在服務過程當中對人身的意外傷害這個是有一個團保 這個是由政府在支持"},{"start":923.723,"end":952.602,"text":"那另外呢如果在社工司法裡面也有提到對這個法律諮詢支持的部分這個是也有那麼至於這個是屬於專業責任險那這個我們可能可不可以能夠願意就是說建立一套適用於耳哨保護跟收藏服務的專業責任保險制度並思考如何在個人機構跟政府之間建立更合理的責任的配置可以嗎我們來研究看看"},{"start":953.803,"end":978.799,"text":"包含這些從鑑定到責任的釐清等等最後我還是要再次強調今天的討論核心始終是孩子制度的清楚與否會直接影響到孩子是否能夠被穩定的接觸因為我們的目標今天孩子來到這塊土地我們每一個大人都有責任讓他平安長大如果責任不清資訊斷裂支持不足那麼風險就會在體積"},{"start":980.48,"end":1004.976,"text":"體系當中去累積而不是被解決所以我們需要的不是追究責任而是要讓制度真正有能力去承擔這個責任所以在請部長能夠針對第一線也要希望你們能夠傾聽他的聲音去辦這樣的論壇然後我們要接住孩子我們要接住那個一直在幫我們處理社會問題的社工也要接住第一線社工"},{"start":1005.436,"end":1021.726,"text":"好 我們今天下午其實在部裡面有這樣的座談那有些社工團體也許沒有辦法出席的我們再後續看看再來分區考量這個再舉辦好 謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝林若琴 趙薇的發言謝謝部長的答詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:07:12+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T09:07:13+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩我們的石部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T09:07:13+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T09:07:14+08:00","text":"好，有請石部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:07:14+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T09:07:15+08:00","text":"林委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:07:15+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T09:07:16+08:00","text":"部長早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:07:12.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:07:13.110000+08:00","text":"也謝謝讓我們兒少權法修正案的進度能夠推進到預告，可以儘速送到立院來。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:07:39.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:07:55.031000+08:00","text":"部長，這次宣判之後，我想社會上有很多的討論，我先說明我今天不是要去評論法院的判決，也不是要針對個案事實去做判斷，這些都應該回到司法程序裡面去做處理。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:07:55.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:08:02.493000+08:00","text":"可是這個事件提醒了我們一個很重要的事情，兒少保護案件本來就是高度複雜的一個專業工作。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:08:02.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:08:17.699000+08:00","text":"我們面對的是處境最脆弱的孩子，我還是要再三地強調，國家的責任不是只有讓孩子活下來，而是要讓孩子活得安全、有品質而且要有尊嚴，而且要有發展的可能。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:08:18.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:08:33.581000+08:00","text":"因此，我今天要來請教的是制度問題，也就是責任、權限、資訊跟支持是否事實上是對等的，因為制度越清楚，孩子才越安全，標準越明確，專業判斷才能夠是穩定的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:08:33.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:08:39.662000+08:00","text":"首先，我要談的是兒少保護跟收出養服務之間的銜接問題。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:08:39.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:08:51.085000+08:00","text":"從這次事件所呈現的整個制度樣貌來看的話，兒少保護個案在進入收出養服務後，會同時涉及到政府端跟民間機構兩個不同的系統。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:08:51.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:09:04.631000+08:00","text":"政府的社福中心原本掌握的是家庭脆弱性跟兒少保護的風險評估與安置；而收出養服務就聚焦在所謂的媒合跟出養的準備。","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:09:05.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:09:13.775000+08:00","text":"這兩套工作邏輯本質上就是不相同的，如果中間沒有一個整合機制的話，孩子的風險就可能落在這種制度的縫隙當中。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:09:13.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:09:35.520000+08:00","text":"剴剴案發生之後，我也很努力的推動修法以及參與我們的討論會議後，目前的制度我知道有調整了，也就是兒少保護跟收出養的業務原則上是回到各縣市政府的社福中心來主責執行，可是實務上還是存在一個關鍵的模糊點：這兩項業務是否是同一組別？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:09:36.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:09:59.008000+08:00","text":"過去我們不管是看培諾米達案，同樣都是政府部門，可是只要分屬不同的組，可能中間就還是會有漏掉的狀況，所以不是回歸到政府就沒有問題，沒有跨到民間單位就沒有問題，是不是真的是在同一個組別，甚至是同一個社工負責？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:09:59.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:10:11.734000+08:00","text":"其實我看起來是沒有一個很明確的、一致的制度設計，也就是說，即使同在公部門的體系，我們的風險資訊是不是能夠完整地被承接跟延續，還是有很多不確定性。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:10:11.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:10:25.327000+08:00","text":"所以想問部長的是，目前兒少保護個案在進入收出養流程的時候，有沒有建立一套標準化的風險資訊移轉機制？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:10:26.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:10:39.232000+08:00","text":"包括原本兒保案中的風險評估、家庭背景、照顧風險，以及孩子的醫療、身心狀況，是不是能夠完整且一致性地被移交，或者是共案合作？部長。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:10:42.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:10:42.853000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的指教。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:10:43.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:10:50.237000+08:00","text":"在回答委員這個問題之前，我也想藉這個機會公開地給我們全國的社工人員打氣。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:10:50.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:11:31.810000+08:00","text":"我想社工跟我們所有的醫事人員一樣，都擔負著救死扶傷，面臨的狀況跟條件都是多元、複雜，而且經常都有它的緊急性，所以過去我們也因為醫事人員工作的特殊性，修訂了醫療法第八十二條，明定醫事人員在過程當中，如果有一些不如預期的結果，是以故意、過失且違反了注意義務跟專業考量，才負刑事跟民事責任。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:11:32.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:11:55.925000+08:00","text":"我想社工特別是保護社工也好，或者是我們很多脆弱家庭協助的部分，這個情況跟醫事人員其實相當地類似，他們所面臨的挑戰、不確定性跟它的急迫性經常是有的，所以我們也很希望各界給予我們社工支持。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:11:57.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:12:30.598000+08:00","text":"對於法律見解上，明天我們也會邀請很多的專家，大家共同來討論，更重要的是，在現行的兒少法第五條也很清楚地明定，當兒少權益遭受不法侵害的時候，國家是負協助跟保護的責任，也就是說，這個是國家的責任，這個完全是正確的。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:12:31.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:12:41.884000+08:00","text":"因此，透過每一次不幸個案的討論跟改善來提升我們對兒少的保護。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:12:43.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:13:15.527000+08:00","text":"從這個案子發生之後，這個案子最主要是脆弱家庭跟收出養這個中間有一個gap，過去收出養不見得是由地方政府介入，它可以透過收出養的媒合機構，所以在這個事件之後，我們已經重新調整，同時也入法，未來在收出養的過程當中，地方政府必須扮演一定的角色，包含這中間如果涉及到安置的時候，也要走入安置的程序。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:13:16.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:13:42.142000+08:00","text":"當然這裡面最重要的還有一塊，就是因為跨體系、跨系統或跨區域，所以資訊的串接是非常重要的，因此在這個事件之後，我們也已經建立了脆弱家庭的一個資訊平臺，另外，社安網也嘗試去串聯34個系統，就是希望讓這個資訊能夠串接、不要漏接，先讓資訊能夠串接得好。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:13:43.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:13:48.224000+08:00","text":"至於人員上，剛剛您特別提到，是不是要固定一組？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:13:48.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:13:57.847000+08:00","text":"我想這個我們再跟地方討論，因為過去都是地方分工、它是怎麼樣分工的問題，我們再來持續的討論。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:13:57.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:15:27.348000+08:00","text":"部長，你剛剛的回應我覺得也很重要，所以給你兩個建議，第一個，針對於制度到底清不清楚，甚至對於這次的事情，我覺得社工界一直長期以來擔負這麼多社會問題來協助政府去解決的時候，應該要讓他們相對應的能夠有資源到位來協助他們，所以我也建議，接下來衛福部應該要去傾聽社工的聲音，能不能召開北中南東的座談也好、論壇也好，讓大家把他們過去、現在碰到的問題，地方政府和中央政府，甚至他們在民間碰到的一些問題，可以跟你們說，畢竟你們是中央最高主管機關，可以來做處理，之後我們也希望能夠來討論制度，我覺得這才是真正的解決問題，一直以來沒有很明確的東西，只是講說那丟進去去做，然後做了之後，當發生問題的時候，你要社工去承擔，坦白講，在沒有一個明確的指引的時候，然後看誰比較不幸碰到一些事情的時候就要去承擔，我覺得這不是一件好事，所以我今天為什麼會去問有關收出養的部分，我也希望你們不會因為回到政府部門之後，這中間如果沒有連接的話，還是會發生同樣的問題。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:15:27.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:15:29.230000+08:00","text":"不好意思，今天我會花比較長的時間。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:15:31.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:15:44.639000+08:00","text":"第二個問題就是你的「一主責、多協力」在實務上的運作，我一直看不懂，因為社安網長期強調「一主責、多協力」，這個方向是正確的，可是關鍵在於這套機制是否真的能夠到決策的層次。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:15:45.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:15:46.500000+08:00","text":"如果你講我主責，我醫療主責，我就主責嗎？","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:15:46.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:15:47.581000+08:00","text":"你講我社政主責，我就主責嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:15:47.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:15:48.561000+08:00","text":"你講我警政主責，我就主責嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:15:48.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:15:49.021000+08:00","text":"如果不主責的話，誰會對我怎麼樣？不會。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:15:49.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:16:00.487000+08:00","text":"甚至你叫我這個社工主責，那我就主責嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:16:00.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:16:01.088000+08:00","text":"如果我不主責會怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:16:01.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:16:05.350000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得這個我真的看不懂，到底為什麼誰規定了誰主責，最後就是很願意承擔的人去主責，而主責，如果發生事情的時候，他還要去承擔更多的責任、義務。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:16:05.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:16:28.462000+08:00","text":"所以我不太懂的是，一直以來每次都在處理這些，所以我想請教部長，在兒少保護跟收出養的案件當中，主責單位的權限、範圍目前該怎麼去界定？","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:16:29.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:16:35.664000+08:00","text":"醫療、教育、警政、司法、心理衛生跟民間團體等協力單位在什麼樣的狀況之下要實際介入？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:16:36.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:16:38.784000+08:00","text":"這些協力單位是只提供資訊嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:16:38.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:16:40.805000+08:00","text":"還是要參與共同評估跟決策？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:16:41.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:16:53.650000+08:00","text":"不過最後就是認真的人，好像你去做了，然後最後就是你去承擔，所以如果協力單位都沒有即時回應，甚至沒有做一些決議、執行的時候，有沒有追蹤回報或是處理機制？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:16:54.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:16:56.290000+08:00","text":"那他不回報，我們也沒關係嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:16:57.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:17:00.772000+08:00","text":"到底誰規定了這個主責，他就要去承擔什麼樣的責任？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:17:01.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:17:04.854000+08:00","text":"對於高風險的案件如何建立跨體系共同決策的流程？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:17:05.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:17:10.196000+08:00","text":"明確的規範召集機制、參與對象跟後續的責任，這些都有訂嗎？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:17:11.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:17:25.031000+08:00","text":"有很清楚的讓誰知道……甚至我要進一步的提，衛福部去年7月就已經提出「一主責、多協力」的分工原則，顯然最大的問題是，我們到底要怎麼讓制度從原則走向實際可操作的流程？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:17:26.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:17:46.625000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，這有兩點，第一個，主責不代表所有的責任都在他，因為很多個案需要跨域的合作，所以各自要本於他的責任去完成，並不是說主責的就是所有的成敗或所有的責任他一個人扛，並不是這樣。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:17:46.625000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T09:17:47.625000+08:00","text":"可是部長，也就是沒有講清楚啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:17:46.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:18:15.052000+08:00","text":"第二個，因為在社安網裡頭，我們的對象很廣，從我的報告裡面可以看到，個案很廣，可能有一些是精神個案，有些是脆弱家庭、有些是保護個案、有些是藥酒癮，都有不同的種類，所以我們所講的「一主責、多協力」，其實概念是說他可能有不同的category，但是進來之後，大家要一起幫忙，並不是……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:18:15.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:18:19.175000+08:00","text":"對，那這個要大家一起幫忙，但大家不一起幫忙的時候怎麼辦？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:18:21.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:18:28.222000+08:00","text":"誰是主要的、上頭的那個……要我主責，然後我主責，我要去協力其他人的時候，其他人不配合我的時候，我怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:18:28.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:18:28.763000+08:00","text":"如果我是這個社工，我怎麼辦？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:18:28.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:18:28.963000+08:00","text":"我怎麼去做處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:18:33.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:18:46.233000+08:00","text":"似乎沒有一個……那就是自己持續做下去，所以第三個問題就是社工的工作範圍跟責任分工是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:18:46.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:19:01.342000+08:00","text":"如果這次現行的制度發展已經讓社工在某些情境上被納入保證人地位這樣的討論的話，那我們就必須更清楚地回答一個問題，在這樣的法律框架下，社工的工作範圍跟責任分工，究竟你是如何界定的？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:19:01.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:19:20.769000+08:00","text":"因為目前最大的困境在於社工的實務工作高度多元，包含兒少保護、脆弱家庭的服務、收出養、居家托育，各自的工作內容、介入的深度跟可運用權限都有很大的差異，可是在責任認定上，這些差異是否有被清楚的反映，仍然事實上是有落差的。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:19:21.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:19:50.157000+08:00","text":"所以如果工作範圍沒有被制度化說明，責任界限又透過個案事後的解讀來界定的話，就容易出現一個問題，同樣的職務在不同案件中可能被賦予不同責任的標準，導致第一線沒有辦法建立穩定的專業判斷，所以想問部長，衛福部是不是會進一步去釐清不同類型社工業務的工作範圍、權限邊界跟責任內容，並建立可供實務跟司法共同參考的標準？","quality":0.993},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:19:52.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:20:06.162000+08:00","text":"這個專業範圍確實不容易完全界定，但是我們會盡可能地去發展一些指引，這個其實跟醫療很像，就是盡量有一些指引來作為我們在專業執行上的參據。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:20:06.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:20:12.748000+08:00","text":"但是也不可能完全非常僵化地只有指引，這樣我們會漏失掉很多東西。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:20:13.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:20:30.367000+08:00","text":"因為專業的部分就是會按照這個個案當時的情形去做彈性的調整，所以我們會盡可能地把一些常見的樣態跟經常性的工作內容變成指引。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:20:31.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:20:49.447000+08:00","text":"部長，特別是在涉及人身安全風險的案件當中，應該界定應注意的範圍和不同職務之間的責任分工，應該要更具體和制度化，否則我覺得等這次事情結束後還是沒有解決社工的壓迫感和不確定性。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:20:50.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:20:58.450000+08:00","text":"對，所以像剛剛提到，以這個個案來講我們就有收出養辦法的修訂，裡面也有一些收出養的指引。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:20:59.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:21:09.574000+08:00","text":"另外收出養必要性評估的格式我們也重新檢討，這些其實都是在協助界定這個專業應該要執行的範圍。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:21:10.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:21:19.423000+08:00","text":"部長，我還是建議真的要傾聽基層社工的焦慮到底是什麼，這個案子帶來的衝擊到底是什麼。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:21:19.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:21:20.663000+08:00","text":"我很同意，因為今天下午……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:21:20.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:21:25.446000+08:00","text":"並不是像說你的制度訂好就行，過去也是把制度訂好，為什麼還是有這些問題？","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:21:26.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:21:30.928000+08:00","text":"要知道他們面對到的困境到底是什麼，才能真正解決問題啦！","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:21:31.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:21:44.414000+08:00","text":"最後有關兒少保護、收出養、安置及寄養，在本質上都是高風險且高度不確定的專業服務，在這樣的工作情境下，我覺得制度是不是足以作為風險的支持是必須重視的問題。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:21:46.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:22:07.994000+08:00","text":"專業責任保險並不是免責，更不是替任何人卸責，而是在高風險的公共服務當中，國家是不是能夠建立合理的風險分擔機制，所以想問部長，目前在兒少保護跟收出養的服務當中是不是有專業責任保險或類似風險分擔的制度？","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:22:08.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:22:18.499000+08:00","text":"當第一線人員在職務上遭遇到民、刑事程序的時候，有沒有法律諮詢、訴訟協助或者是專業鑑定的支持體制？","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:22:21.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:22:35.143000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，目前對於社工我們是有團保，不過最主要是針對一些意外，像是在服務過程當中對人身的意外傷害，這是有一個由政府在支持的團保。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:22:35.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:22:48.732000+08:00","text":"另外社工在司法方面也有法律諮詢、支持的部分，至於這是不是屬於專業責任險，這個我們可能來……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:22:48.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:23:03.662000+08:00","text":"可不可研擬建立一套適用兒少保護跟收出養服務的專業責任保險制度，並思考如何在個人、機構跟政府之間建立更合理的責任配置，可以嗎？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:23:03.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:23:08.905000+08:00","text":"我們來研究看看，包含這些從鑑定到責任的釐清等等。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:23:09.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:23:19.412000+08:00","text":"最後我還是要再次強調，今天的討論核心始終是孩子，制度清楚與否會直接影響到孩子是否能被穩定地接住。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:23:19.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:23:40.445000+08:00","text":"因為我們的目標……今天孩子來到這塊土地，我們每一個大人都有責任讓他平安長大，如果責任不清、資訊斷鏈、支持不足，風險就會在體系當中去累積而不是被解決，所以我們需要的不是追究責任，而是要讓制度真正有能力去承擔這個責任。好。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:23:42.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:23:47.870000+08:00","text":"再請部長能夠針對第一線，希望你們能夠傾聽他們的聲音，去辦這樣的論壇。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:23:49.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:23:57.436000+08:00","text":"我們要接住孩子，也要接住一直在第一線幫我們處理社會問題的社工。好。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:23:57.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:24:08.443000+08:00","text":"今天下午其實在部裡面有這樣的座談，有些社工團體也許沒有辦法出席，我們後續會分區考量再舉辦。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-23T09:24:08.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:24:10.284000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T09:24:10.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:24:10.985000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T09:24:11.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:24:13.726000+08:00","text":"謝謝林月琴召委的發言，謝謝部長的答詢。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T09:24:14.226000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T09:24:17.940286+08:00","text":"下一位我們請王育敏委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}