{"error":false,"id":["168778"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168778,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168778","日期":"2026-04-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-19-10","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":10,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-23T09:40:24+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-23T09:51:23+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:59","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be54421bb6a986fa42d01e47e947452b2762635c559c9b7407d71cf0a37585b42538705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:40:24 - 09:51:23","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) (詢答及處理)\n【4月22日及23日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.7478437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.52721875,"end":13.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.480343750000003,"end":14.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.50909375,"end":18.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.54284375,"end":18.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.72846875,"end":18.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.74534375,"end":18.812843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.812843750000003,"end":18.981593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.605968750000002,"end":31.300343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.620968750000003,"end":46.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.14596875,"end":61.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.641593750000006,"end":78.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.66846875,"end":86.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.54909375000001,"end":89.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.22784375,"end":96.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.57284375,"end":98.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.27284375,"end":115.50659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.84409375000001,"end":126.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.96471875,"end":132.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.29284375,"end":137.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.83221875,"end":151.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.82159375,"end":169.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.50659375,"end":171.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.45159375,"end":174.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.02096875,"end":172.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.02471875,"end":184.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.31471875000003,"end":182.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.66034375,"end":186.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.92159375,"end":188.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.25471875000002,"end":196.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.79409375,"end":194.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.45596875,"end":204.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.42096875000001,"end":225.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.25096875000003,"end":212.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.46471875,"end":221.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.78534375,"end":221.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.83096875,"end":229.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.78409375,"end":244.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.19096875000002,"end":252.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.20659375000002,"end":255.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.10909375,"end":259.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.53034375000004,"end":262.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.96034375,"end":266.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.47034375000004,"end":274.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.51971875000004,"end":275.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.16096875,"end":278.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.99596875000003,"end":278.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.36721875,"end":278.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.56971875,"end":286.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.72034375000004,"end":288.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.64409375,"end":302.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.10159375,"end":307.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.56096875000003,"end":318.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.16284375000004,"end":317.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.31034375,"end":320.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.33534375,"end":323.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.96346875,"end":342.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.12096875000003,"end":342.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.60596875000005,"end":345.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.47909375,"end":346.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.05284375,"end":346.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.99784375,"end":347.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.41534375000003,"end":354.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.03471875,"end":357.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.22409375,"end":357.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.96659375,"end":359.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.78909375,"end":362.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.75909375000003,"end":363.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.56909375000004,"end":367.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.31534375,"end":383.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.68409375000005,"end":386.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":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邀請公平會邀請公平會主委"},{"start":19.659,"end":46.433,"text":"主要Uber在4月17號宣布要以2.7億歐元來收購德國外送平台的Delivery Hero的4.5%的股權使得它的總持股會達到7%左右但是我們也知道Hero正是Fupenda台灣母公司那Uber本身又有Grab"},{"start":47.213,"end":64.91,"text":"他大概有13.1%的這個股權那而且他還有保有董事的一個席次那換句話說Uber呢同時是國內北收購普遍黨台灣暗中的買方股東那同時他也是賣方的母公司的一個股東"},{"start":65.831,"end":71.135,"text":"也就是說台灣市場主要的競爭者那前年公平會我們才以合併後市佔率過高恐怕會影響主要的競爭者這個價格上漲的這個理由所以否決了那個Uber直接收購Fupenda的"},{"start":86.747,"end":115.159,"text":"在台灣我們做這樣的一個決議但是我們看到現在這個Uber改以入股母公司的方式重新來建立利益的關係那這等於是形成了橫跨買賣雙方的這個三角持股的這個結構所以請教主委在這樣的一個情況之下你是否會認定Grab是獨立"},{"start":115.939,"end":131.953,"text":"的買方那未來你在審查回本收購撫片達的這個案子的時候你是否會把Uber的交叉持股董事席次以及實質利益連結一併來納入"},{"start":133.614,"end":151.1,"text":"才不會去年你否決那今年就放棄請說明跟委員報告一下當然去年的案子跟今年的案子不太一樣至少就是市場結合後結果不一樣當然委員提到這個問題是一個重要的問題那我也一再的表示就是說這個問題我們在審查過程一定會審查那這邊要附帶跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":151.92,"end":167.458,"text":"法律上既然沒有禁止公司可以跨公司來持股所以假設我們要以這個跨公司持股對競爭的疑慮來審查這個案子的話我們必須要有更多的行為面的事證所謂行為面的事證就是說我們要先去預測甚至於去判斷讓他結合以後他會不會用"},{"start":169.64,"end":183.805,"text":"契約或是其他方式對 你講到這個重點了所以大家都非常的關心因為法律上沒有如此那每一個型態 商業行為它的方式一直變在變那我政府"},{"start":184.744,"end":203.073,"text":"永遠都是那一套的一個法律所以大家關心在您剛剛所說的也是一個重點實質的影響力到底是什麼你務必要納入啊對 這個我們會具體如果我們有疑慮我們會具體要他提供一些事證來配合我們來調查看是不是能夠產生實質的影響力"},{"start":204.454,"end":228.894,"text":"因為這個國內培已經在3月27號你已經向你遞交了收購忽偏大的台灣業務的一個申請所以大家看到這個議題一定要好好的以公平消費者的一個原則這個非常的重要接下來本席要請教在海運的部分還有凱旋以及天性"},{"start":229.844,"end":252.427,"text":"那麼現在它從2019年它透過了共同設立管理公司的一個協調航班以及票款的一個拆分那實質已經形成了聯合排班限制航班的供給那三家業者在布袋跟馬公的航線它的市佔率幾乎將近達到六成"},{"start":253.268,"end":257.49,"text":"它雖然沒有共同的來定價它透過了控制班次跟債容量那等於是讓市場去失去了正常的這個競爭機制那所以這換句話說 也反映了產業它不一定是靠聯合漲價來影響市場 對不對對 你講的沒錯啊 我們聯合企業不是只限於聯合漲價"},{"start":278.658,"end":296.723,"text":"那像這樣子 它透過了聯合限量 聯合排辦 聯合分配市場讓消費者他沒有選擇 奶業者也沒有改立即改善服務的這個量人的一個壓力所以要請教主委 像這樣的一個情況你最後 你最後罰了多少 各罰十萬塊"},{"start":304.161,"end":308.965,"text":"你們的財主是最後個罰十萬塊所以這樣子是不是低估了整個聯合限量對於市場的競爭跟消費者權益的一個傷害那未來你是否會重新"},{"start":320.753,"end":342.309,"text":"去檢討聯合行為的一個裁罰標準因為聯合行為的裁罰的級距是蠻寬的啦所以它有最低到最高一定的級距當然但是我們在個案裡面的裁罰我們會綜合各種因素來判斷那這個案子主要原因是因為我們分析後的結果雖然他們是聯合行為但是他們對市場影響的程度並不是太高我們深怕"},{"start":343.79,"end":355.936,"text":"轉了一個彎轉了一個方式讓業者把划環的部分當成是微不足道的他的一個經營成本但是影響到消費者所以現在本期跟你討論的另外一個議題也就是方式"},{"start":362.799,"end":386.258,"text":"因為業者已經將方式有所做調整那你們必須要去討論現在的經營方式那你們的督導方式要怎麼樣去應對這是本席我個人跟你請教的這個議題的一個重點你去盤點你可以怎麼樣去調整去調整你的方式不讓消費者有所損害無從選擇"},{"start":390.543,"end":409.654,"text":"我想對編合行為對業者的宣導我們是積極在做這可能是我們最重要的一點好你去盤點然後方案怎麼樣調整告訴本席順便資料給本席給個人給我那最後一個議題公平會你在115年不公平競爭行為調查當中你編列了今年度的260"},{"start":411.115,"end":415.8,"text":"226萬9千元那增幅是28.26%比起109年到114年那7月底你的這個第21條跟25條的處分只有15件那你才華的這個總額也"},{"start":428.396,"end":457.108,"text":"只有243萬那但是我們討論一個議題也就是營利營運費用跟採購的限制這兩項這對於整個龐大的市場現在是整個市場的一個趨勢那如果是這樣子你的答案告訴我們只有15件只有200出頭外那等於沒有實質的震懾力那所以呢會嚴重的影響到整個加盟交易的一個次序跟"},{"start":457.748,"end":467.974,"text":"保持事業的一個公平競爭所以本席要請教主委隱匿費用跟強制採購在整個這個家門的契約當中會產生資訊不對等的這兩項項目你是否會落實怎麼樣去保障家門主的一個權益"},{"start":477.979,"end":490.33,"text":"我想這個營利費用跟採購限制這些東西都是在我們的處理原則裡面有明確要求業者在加盟契約書裡面要明確揭露出來所以這整個處分安全通常都是因為他該揭露而沒有揭露對 那怎麼辦呢那我們藉由過去這幾年不斷的積極的宣導那你的宣導就是15件啊 跟200出頭萬的滑環而已啊"},{"start":498.124,"end":511.374,"text":"從我的角度來看 所以你現在自己都狼狼上口可以講說問題出在這裡 該揭露沒揭露啊那該揭露沒揭露 你的罰款又是如此 案件就只有15件 那要怎麼辦你有什麼樣的調整方案去監管我們會積極地去監管這樣的一個行為 那當然宣導也是很重要的事情所以趕快去加強 對 那罰款的部分應該綜合考慮好 趕快去加強 最後我請次長"},{"start":528.857,"end":549.764,"text":"市長我們第二階段呢 召委排定了這個土石這個採取法的這個部分那大家非常關心 包括原住民他們應當要有的權益就陳儒剛剛市長你所說的回歸環境景觀就是大家都非常重視在怎麼樣均衡那這個法案呢"},{"start":552.745,"end":566.757,"text":"的決定是很重要的 怎麼樣去回歸環境的景觀所以不只是在這個第三條原住民的這個部分還有特別就是大家比較爭議的在第36條"},{"start":569.439,"end":587.465,"text":"36條 有原先的2000萬也有說8000萬 也有1億的等等所以待會會實質來討論但是我們覺得很奇怪 既然行政部門認為很重要對於我們整個環境也很重要在這樣的一個情況之下 行政院版為什麼還沒有出來 什麼時候會出來"},{"start":590.805,"end":610.156,"text":"什麼時候會出來剛剛主委委員已經關心過我們希望院裡面兩個禮拜裡面可以送出院版這個部分來第二個部分委員所提到的為什麼討論這麼久不但是抓到犯罪人而已不但是裁罰而已我們重要的是委員講的環境警官要整戶回來"},{"start":611.096,"end":629.941,"text":"因為整戶的部分 威爾尼亞只要涉及到很多的單位包括內政部 包括甚至是農業部的這個部分我們必須要把它細緻的把它溝通做一個比較好的一個整戶因為我們希望這些犯罪行為獲得遏止之外環境還可以去恢復回來"},{"start":631.421,"end":647.245,"text":"這個是我們在努力的這個方向這個非常重要所以剛剛次長你回答就是兩個禮拜內行政院版會出來我們希望說院裡面可以去審核因為大家這麼關心你行政院更要有責任了對不對而且橫向的一個聯繫討論更要積極兩個禮拜內會提出來我們希望可以依照這樣子來努力謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}