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Kacaw等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-6院會付委）\n（八）委員林月琴等22人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-9院會付委）\n（十二）委員黃捷等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員范雲等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第（十八）、（十九）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（二）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（四）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（五）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（六）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（七）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n【第（七）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（八）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":0.60471875,"end":0.6215937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":9.21096875,"end":10.476593750000003,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.05034375,"end":11.067218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11.067218750000002,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":11.52284375,"end":13.227218750000002,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14.070968750000002,"end":15.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":16.28159375,"end":16.95659375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":17.47971875,"end":26.74409375,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":27.250343750000003,"end":33.64596875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":31.35096875,"end":31.739093750000002,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":32.98784375,"end":33.66284375,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":34.16909375,"end":34.77659375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":34.455968750000004,"end":34.877843750000004,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":34.79346875,"end":34.81034375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":34.877843750000004,"end":37.84784375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":38.15159375,"end":39.06284375,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":39.55221875,"end":80.60909375,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":81.31784375000001,"end":113.65034375,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":113.80221875000001,"end":115.21971875000001,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":115.60784375,"end":118.42596875000001,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":118.88159375000001,"end":132.39846875,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":132.97221875,"end":139.38471875000002,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":140.12721875,"end":149.45909375000002,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":150.64034375,"end":150.94409375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":151.36596875,"end":201.11346875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":183.52971875,"end":183.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":183.81659375,"end":183.86721875,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":200.64096875,"end":201.95721875,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":201.67034375,"end":219.25409375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":219.35534375,"end":223.92846875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":224.19846875000002,"end":238.17096875000001,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":226.91534375,"end":227.74221875,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":228.72096875000003,"end":229.73346875000001,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":237.76596875,"end":242.20409375000003,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":239.38596875000002,"end":239.92596875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":241.79909375000003,"end":257.76284375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":253.52721875,"end":254.25284375,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張委員雅琳","start":255.04596875000001,"end":255.95721875,"sp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對吧就是那個大陸律師中國律師的那個來台灣那個就是一個出庭的一個民事案件"},{"start":41.924,"end":61.491,"text":"台中地檢署這次對於中國律師雖然有收錢但是因為沒有辦法認定他是出於營利目的去辦理這個訴訟案件所以是不起訴簡單來說是這樣子但是我認為這個樣子的認定真的是合理嗎這待會想要跟大家來請教因為現在根據這個公開資料這個律師其實已經收了五萬塊人民幣"},{"start":63.032,"end":77.019,"text":"而且不是一次收完是分階段收那這個收呢還是照這個案件的進度來收所以呢這其實跟這個案件最終有沒有處理完有一個非常高度的連結可是呢如果他今天說他只是一個法務諮詢那為什麼訴訟會跟收錢的進度綁得這麼緊"},{"start":81.54,"end":101.808,"text":"所以我認為這次不起訴最大的問題是在於檢方看這件事情呢其實是看得太表面只有看名稱這件事情因為對方只要把錢寫成是法律顧問費那檢方就認為這不是盈利的意圖但是民間其實有非常多的律師也認為說那以後是不是就質疑說以後是不是說任何說自己沒有"},{"start":102.068,"end":118.2,"text":"任何一個沒有律師資格的人只要把錢不要把錢寫成律師費改寫成顧問費法務費或其他的名目都可以躲掉律師法的處罰呢那這樣子律師法127條到底還有什麼意義所以我想喔"},{"start":119.3,"end":138.466,"text":"這個雖然說過去有很多號稱法律專業的委員或者是說民間有一些詐團律師是摧毀了大家對法律的信任但是我相信還是有非常非常多法律專業的人應該是被好好的保障那我想請教一下部長跟副司長的意見如果說我們今天在這件事情在不起訴的邏輯上"},{"start":140.186,"end":148.476,"text":"那未來一個沒有我國律師的資格只要掛上法務顧問各種名義他都可以來參與的話那這樣子是不是直接幫非法職業開後門呢"},{"start":151.884,"end":170.542,"text":"謝謝委員的一個詢問那我想這是一個台中地檢署是一個個案的一個處理那當然以法務部的立場我們對個案我們是不干涉不介入不指導的因為個案的話應該依照證據依照實務法律上的一個見解法律上的規定來判斷來做一個判斷"},{"start":173.645,"end":197.583,"text":"因為我沒辦法去干涉個案所以我只能尊重台中地檢檢察官個案的一個判斷另外剛才我也有提到那個律師法127條的那個問題事實上那個意圖盈利這部分當然關鍵是有意圖盈利就是說他是不是在這個訴訟的一個事件裡面他是不是有另外的收賄的一個問題當作那個律師施行律師費用的一個報酬"},{"start":198.263,"end":223.508,"text":"那這部分 那的確 那顯然就是有啊那個我們就講實務上的一個見解就是說行為人若意圖藉由受任辦理個別訴訟事件 個別啦 個案啦而取得相當執行律師業務的報酬那當然這個就是有對價啦這就是有對價 那我想這是實務上的見解那今天那個司法院民視廳廳長他們來 我想"},{"start":226.949,"end":252.752,"text":"待會我也會請教他 邵家廷市法院他們也有 他們這個案件是在台中地院的一個民事的一個事件 那個法官是給有允許他來當訴訟代理沒關係 待會我會問司法院啦 所以我這樣聽起來就是說法務部對於這樣子的一個我尊重他 當然他這個見解 他這個有司法院他們的那個法院的一個實務上的見解剛才我跟委員報告 這都是法院的實務上的一個見解"},{"start":253.693,"end":269.78,"text":"那這個可以做一個參考 這個見解是司法院他們的見解好沒關係 部長我知道了 對我待會會問司法院 我剛剛也有說所以我現在是要做個結論就是說聽起來就是說你們對於這樣子的態度就是尊重啦沒有覺得這樣子 你們就覺得就是尊重啦好沒關係我知道了 那我們請司法院我們請司法院"},{"start":283.144,"end":302.503,"text":"我想了解一下司法院對這件事情的看法我認為法院在這次對於非訴訟代理人的資格審查上面可能沒有把關好了在網路上面一查就知道這個律師其實是在中國職業很多年的律師本來就是長期從事法律的工作而到了台灣法院他又說自己是奧地利公司的員工"},{"start":303.584,"end":320.351,"text":"因為他拿不出充分清楚而且讓人家信服的一個證明文件所以我想問一下是說我們到底在法院上的制度上面有沒有可以事先釐清或是實質審查的部分還是我們會等到他先進入程序之後有人執意的時候才又提出來才來處理呢"},{"start":321.354,"end":338.479,"text":"是 報告委員 目前實務的操作是有法跟執法的依據民宿訴訟法的第68條只要是非律師他要擔任受委任的訴訟代理人 要經過審辦人許可"},{"start":340.259,"end":369.534,"text":"那因此有一個授權執法規叫民事事件委任非律師為送帶領的許可準則那這時候審判長他就必須有相當的調查或者是相當的一個一個審佐的義務啦齁那這裡面第二條第三條都有明定剛剛委員垂詢的那幾個問題所以制度面是有但是呢就是委員問到怎麼去精進這個因為大家都看到沒有查明他是"},{"start":370.578,"end":371.425,"text":"中國大陸的律師"},{"start":372.865,"end":395.672,"text":"因為這樣看起來好像就是變成是審判長當天各個自己來判斷的感覺啦是對所以我們只是在想說因為其實這民間其實有非常多我相信你們一定都有收到民間律師的一些意見對於這件事情的基本上是質疑啦所以我想就是說因為他們也會擔心說這會不會變成境外人士用這個方式來鑽漏洞所以我認為這件事情應該必須要來強化我們對於外國的律師來台灣從事法律事務的一個監管機制"},{"start":402.034,"end":424.398,"text":"特別是如果外國律師要來台灣執行業務的時候呢都必須要登記加入這個律師公會所以我想了解一下就是說我了解那個司法院我想再請教法務部所以對於這件事情的話法務部你們對於這個目前的制度問題上面還有入境審查身份認定等等的有沒有一些具體的強化方案呢"},{"start":425.322,"end":446.459,"text":"那的確是因為法務部是律師法的一個主管的一個機關我們是主管的一個機關那當然我們全立會他對這部分他是認為還要再加強監管就像委員講的那我想這個議題是非常的一個重要那因為這個有跨部會的問題因為不是只有法務部只是法規的單純就還有陸委會我知道所以我是說你們接下來會來跟相關部會來做"},{"start":452.103,"end":461.41,"text":"我們再來做一個研議來做一個規劃處理這個區塊這樣聽起來就是說部長也願意來跟我們相關的部會主管來討論如何檢討強化這個機制嘛對不對那大概什麼時候我們可以來追蹤相關的進度呢需要多久的時間"},{"start":476.601,"end":490.728,"text":"我們是不是三個月好不好三個月喔那因為這個跨部會不是只有本部的事情好了那我希望三個月前後我們可以這個可能要到行政院可能還要到應該這個應該是你們可以先有一個出你們一定會有一個先出稿嘛"},{"start":491.778,"end":517.48,"text":"那那個我們再先召會召會我們才要再三個月吧好不好我們三個月要有這個相關的進度好嗎我們再跟委員報告好那接下來下一個部分是有關於1052條的這個有關於這一次我們講說夫妻如果五年內分居累積達三年的話就可以向法院訴請離婚那我想要具體的請教一下部長就是說"},{"start":519.021,"end":541.649,"text":"這個分居的計算到底是什麼是沒有住在一起就算還是要完全沒有共同生活就算那如果說有人因為工作現在有人就是在兩地工作沒有住在一起或是有人要照顧家長照顧長輩或是照顧小孩他們沒有住在一起那這樣到底算不算分居這個定義上面到底算不算這部分我請市長來回答"},{"start":546.846,"end":564.413,"text":"報告委員 目前我們民法雖然對分居這兩個字是沒有定義但是在相關的法治裡面分居是常見的文字而且在一般社會同齡上是容易理解的那我們還是回到夫妻之間因為我們現在寫是持續分居不是寫持續分居 我們是寫五年內累積分居三年"},{"start":568.755,"end":588.926,"text":"那累積是其實我們要處理 倒不是說今天租一起 明天沒租一起 後天要租一起這種零散的狀態 我們真正要處理的是可能會有數段 比如說可能是一年或是一年半累積起來在五年累積起來之後 加起來超過三年的一個狀況所以法院要開始計算日子是嗎 計算日子"},{"start":589.426,"end":615.534,"text":"其實這不管採取連續制或是採取所謂的累積制都會有這個問題因為我們的立法方向是只要那一天是處於無正當理由而為共同居住的狀況可能就是食物上所講的悲劇那不好意思喔 市長我想請教一個狀態我想請教就是說因為我們把這個表面上看起來是要放寬離婚的自由啦 對不對但是事實上如果有一些比較經濟強勢的他本來就可以住外面嘛 對不對"},{"start":616.314,"end":643.163,"text":"那他住外面然後他可以在因為他更有資源那這樣會不會造成那些相對比較弱勢因為他可能要顧小孩他沒有辦法搬出去住的人而因此被離婚呢這有沒有可能呢因為在你現在講的是他如果去計算的話那他相對來說他不想跟他一起住啊他出去自己外面住那這種會不會造成經濟弱勢的人反而是在一個不利處境呢這個採 無論採連續制或是採累積制都會有這個問題啦"},{"start":644.924,"end":673.544,"text":"那至於說因為有沒有分居有沒有或是所謂不同居其實是一個互相的狀態啦至於說請求的時候會不會有顯示公平我們在1052草案的第二項單數裡面其實有一個苛刻或者是所謂的顯示公平的條款去調解這種可能會產生極端不公平的狀況不好意思我想好我懂你的意思了因為我覺得這個可能在實務上法院上面到底要如何判我覺得也是在舉證上面會不會有一些問題我想請教一下司法院"},{"start":674.964,"end":693.046,"text":"對於這樣子的一個現在要做累積製然後對於在你們一到這個修法之後你們要去計算大家是不是分居多少時間啊這在你們食物上面會不會有什麼樣子的難度你們對這個法條的看法是什麼"},{"start":694.082,"end":713.575,"text":"是 跟委員報告本院有多次的研究跟收集外國立法律那麼認為說這個以持續這個分區就是說以持續的客觀不同住達到一定的年限我們現在把它定這樣那各國立法律都是"},{"start":714.295,"end":740.349,"text":"持續一直繼續狀態中那麼因為這當中如果有剛剛委員舉例的那事實它會發生主觀客客觀怎麼認定非常難所以國外我們找到的立法例幾乎都是以連續不同住的這樣客觀事實所以不是像現在這樣子可能有一段時間沒有住在一起有一段時間沒有住在一起是這樣子嗎所以國外跟我們現在的立法方向是不太一樣的"},{"start":740.609,"end":767.635,"text":"在國外不會這樣子在國外如果當中有中斷就不算了都是持續兩年或持續三年來訴請所以你們司法院目前對於這樣子的方向是意見不同了 對嗎我們是提出這樣的建議啦 謝謝好 了解喔 因為我想這還是會回到到底法院上可不可以實務的執行嘛好 了解囉好 謝謝那再回到 抱歉我再問最後一題就好就是再回到法務部"},{"start":768.752,"end":775.897,"text":"抱歉那我還有一個說法也是對於就是說我們在這一次的1115跟1116條裡面我們把"},{"start":780.001,"end":807.603,"text":"這個尊卿杯跟杯卿鼠尊卿鼠跟杯卿鼠拉得太近了讓我擔心是會讓未成年子女應該有擁有的優先保障權反而變得不夠清楚所以我也想要請教不管是部長或是副司長我想請教一下未成年子女跟長輩在法律上面的保障應該是一樣的嗎可以啊"},{"start":809.16,"end":827.789,"text":"謝謝委員的追尋,按照我們相關撫養的規定,我們目前是把直系血清被清除是放在同一個區域,跟尊親屬一樣放在同一個區域,並沒有去區分成年或未成年所以我覺得未成年一個3歲的小孩跟一個65歲的長輩在法律的保障上應該是一樣的嗎?"},{"start":830.27,"end":858.201,"text":"這個其實是社會淪藏的判斷跟我們社會是不是很凝聚共識所以副市長你沒有辦法告訴我說未成年子女一個完全三歲無法工作無法自立的小孩在法律上面的保障應該回到社會淪藏是嗎各位委員報告我們其實不能只看這一條我們要整看撫養的規定的話所謂的撫養權利人他所受的撫養權利必須是以他不能維持生活且無謀生能力來看"},{"start":859.121,"end":875.795,"text":"那當然對孫親屬有一些部分有放寬但是對於嬰兒來講的話他是絕對符合這兩款所以他享有的撫養權利是比較強的但是你現在是放在同一個位階嗎同一個順序嗎他在117條會另外做處理我們不會只看這條我們會整個體系來看"},{"start":878.317,"end":900.308,"text":"所以你是說你覺得在整個體系來看的話未成年子女的保障上面其實是還有在被法律保障的對嗎你的意思是這樣嗎當然有保障他的優先保障有被保障應該是說還是會看個案的具體狀況因為未成年也分很多狀況未成年也分說他已經17歲了他可能已經在工作也沒有在就學或者是他是三歲的幼兒"},{"start":900.708,"end":927.92,"text":"好沒關係好我想那我就一樣請教司法院啦我一樣請教司法院對於這一個你們自己的看法又是什麼呢因為我自己會認為說把未成年的子女優先保障權其實在這個現在的這樣子的立法上是會被模糊掉的啦是那我不曉得說司法院您的看法又是什麼報告委員我可不可以請我們調辦室專門研究這一部分的法官郭法官很迅速摘要回答可以嗎好可以好謝謝"},{"start":929.383,"end":948.188,"text":"主席跟委員跟委員報告我們那個未成年子女的撫養義務應該要優先所以我們認為要釐清那尤其在1084條到底要怎麼適用現在116都已經成為問題了那在現在這個行政院的版本把它們放在一起更會出現我們報告上寫那種三明治的狀況而且還會只有一個減輕撫養義務的問題"},{"start":950.629,"end":968.221,"text":"所以我們認為這個撫養現在真的建議先不要去修它那撫養要整個檢討因為我們的撫養醫務人其實有點太廣泛了應該要這樣快一百年了應該要做一個檢討跟修正好 了解那我這樣聽起來就是說在針對於民法再一次行政"},{"start":969.562,"end":981.322,"text":"法務部提出的這些修法的版本好像跟司法院上面還有一些要再整合的部分那我也希望就是說兩方應該要一併的整合啦避免說修法之後我們在實務上面判決上面會造成困難好嗎謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:51:33.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:51:35.566000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T09:51:35.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:51:36.107000+08:00","text":"請鄭部長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:51:36.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:51:38.387000+08:00","text":"還有檢察司副司長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T09:51:38.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:51:40.468000+08:00","text":"請檢察司副司長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:51:40.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:51:41.708000+08:00","text":"委員早。早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:51:42.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:51:50.530000+08:00","text":"首先我想要跟部長還有副司長來討論有關於臺中地院出現中國律師這件事情，我想兩位應該都知道發生了什麼事嘛，對吧？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:51:51.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:51:55.311000+08:00","text":"就是中國律師的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:51:57.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:51:58.211000+08:00","text":"來臺灣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:51:59.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:52:01.532000+08:00","text":"就是在審理一個民事案件時有出庭。","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:52:05.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:52:17.409000+08:00","text":"臺中地檢署說這次中國律師雖然有收錢，但是因為沒有辦法認定他是出於營利目的去辦理這個訴訟案件，所以是不起訴，簡單來說是這樣子。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:52:17.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:52:20.170000+08:00","text":"但是這樣的認定真的合理嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:52:20.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:52:41.019000+08:00","text":"待會想要來請教大家，因為現在根據公開資料，這個律師其實已經收了5萬塊人民幣，不是一次收完而是分階段收，而且還是照這個案件的進度來收，所以這其實跟這個案件最終有沒有處理完有一個非常高度的連結，如果像他說的這只是法務諮詢，那為什麼訴訟的進度會跟收錢綁得這麼緊？","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:52:45.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:52:59.646000+08:00","text":"所以我認為這次不起訴最大的問題其實是在於檢方看這件事情看得太表面，只有看名稱而已，對方只要把收的錢寫成是法律顧問費，檢方就認為沒有營利的意圖。","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:52:59.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:53:16.516000+08:00","text":"但是民間其實有非常多律師就質疑以後是不是任何一個沒有律師資格的人只要在收錢時不要寫律師費而改成顧問費、法務費或其他名目，都可以躲掉律師法的處罰呢？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:53:17.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:53:21.159000+08:00","text":"這樣律師法第一百二十七條到底還有什麼意義？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:53:23.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:53:36.144000+08:00","text":"雖然過去有很多號稱有法律專業的委員或民間有些詐團律師摧毀了大家對法律的信任，但是我相信還是有非常非常多具法律專業的人應該要被好好的保障。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:53:37.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:53:52.456000+08:00","text":"我想請教部長跟副司長的意見，如果說我們今天在這件事情是照這種不起訴的邏輯，那未來一個人沒有我國律師的資格，只要掛上法務、顧問或各種名義，他都可以來參與訴訟程序，這樣子是不是直接幫非法執業開後門呢？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:53:55.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:54:14.162000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的詢問，我想這是臺中地檢署對個案的處理，當然以法務部的立場，我們對個案是不干涉、不介入、不指導，因為對於個案應該依照證據、依照法律見解、法律規定來做判斷。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:54:14.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:54:23.389000+08:00","text":"關於那個結論，因為我沒有辦法去干涉個案，所以我只能尊重臺中地檢檢察官對個案的判斷。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:54:23.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:54:44.664000+08:00","text":"另外，剛才委員有提到律師法第一百二十七條的問題，事實上，關於意圖營利，這部分當然關鍵是有營利的意圖，就是在這個訴訟事件裡面他是不是有另外收費當作律師諮詢的費用、報酬，這部分的確……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:54:45.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:54:45.644000+08:00","text":"顯然就是有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:54:47.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:55:06.208000+08:00","text":"我們就講實務上的一個見解，就是行為人如果意圖藉由受任辦理個別訴訟事件而取得相當執行律師業務的報酬，那當然這樣就是有對價，這是實務上的見解。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:55:06.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:55:07.428000+08:00","text":"今天司法院少家廳的廳長有來……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:55:10.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:55:11.710000+08:00","text":"待會我也會請教他。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:55:15.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:55:21.378000+08:00","text":"這個案件是在臺中地院的一個民事案件，法官是有允許他來當訴訟代理人……","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:55:21.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:55:26.203000+08:00","text":"沒關係，待會我會問司法院，我這樣聽起來就是法務部對於這樣子的一個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:55:26.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:55:38.814000+08:00","text":"我尊重他們，當然司法院有一個實務上的見解，剛才我有跟委員報告，這都是法院在實務上的見解，可以做一個參考。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:55:38.814000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T09:55:39.814000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:55:39.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:55:41.015000+08:00","text":"這個見解是司法院的見解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:55:41.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:55:42.215000+08:00","text":"沒關係，部長，我知道了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:55:43.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:55:45.277000+08:00","text":"我待會會問司法院，我剛剛也有說。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:55:45.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:55:52.880000+08:00","text":"所以我現在要做一個結論，聽起來你們對於這樣子的態度就是尊重，你們覺得就是尊重。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:55:52.880000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T09:55:53.880000+08:00","text":"因為對那個個案我沒辦法做什麼，我身為部長，我是政策的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:55:53+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:55:53.460000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我知道了，那我請司法院，謝謝。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"鍾廳長宗霖","start":"2026-04-23T09:55:53.460000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T09:56:07.144000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:56:07.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:56:31.526000+08:00","text":"我想了解一下司法院對這件事情的看法，因為我認為法院在這次對於非訴訟代理人的資格審查上面可能沒有把關好，就是在網路上面其實一查就知道這個律師其實是在中國執業很多年的律師，本來就是長期從事法律的工作，可是到了臺灣法院，他又說自己是奧地利公司的員工，不過他拿不出充分、清楚而且能讓人家信服的證明文件。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:56:32.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:56:44.331000+08:00","text":"所以我想問一下我們到底在法院的制度上面有沒有可以事先釐清或實質審查的部分，還是我們會讓他先進入程序之後，等到有人質疑的時候才來處理呢？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"鍾廳長宗霖","start":"2026-04-23T09:56:46.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:57:35.425000+08:00","text":"報告委員，目前實務的操作是有法跟子法的依據，依民事訴訟法第六十八條，如果要委任非律師來擔任訴訟代理人，就要經過審判長許可，因此有一個授權的子法規「民事事件委任非律師為訴訟代理人許可準則」，在這時候審判長就有必要進行相當調查或審酌的義務，在這裡面的第二條、第三條都有明定剛剛委員垂詢的那幾個問題，所以在制度面是有，但是委員有問到怎麼去精進這個，因為大家都看到並沒有查明他是中國大陸的律師。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:57:36.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:57:42.927000+08:00","text":"因為這樣看起來好像就變成是審判長當天自己來判斷的感覺。是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:57:44.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:58:14.303000+08:00","text":"其實在民間有非常多意見，我相信你們一定都有收到民間律師的一些意見，就是對於這件事情的質疑，因為他們也會擔心這樣會不會變成境外人士用這個方式來鑽漏洞，所以我認為我們必須要強化外國律師來臺灣從事法律事務的監管機制，特別是如果外國律師要來臺灣執行業務，都必須要加入律師公會並完成登記。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:58:15.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:58:28.378000+08:00","text":"我已經了解司法院講的，我想再請教法務部，關於這件事情，法務部對於目前的制度問題還有入境、審查身分、認定等有沒有一些具體的強化方案呢？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:58:29.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:58:49.598000+08:00","text":"的確法務部是律師法的主管機關，當然全律會對這部分是認為還要再加強監管，就像委員所講的，我想這個議題是非常的重要，因為這個有跨部會的問題，並不是只有我們……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:58:49.598000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T09:58:50.598000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:58:49.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:58:49.978000+08:00","text":"法務部是主管法規的單位，另外還有陸委會、移民署……","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:58:49.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:58:50.439000+08:00","text":"我知道，你們接下來會跟相關部會來做檢討嗎？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:58:56.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:58:58.745000+08:00","text":"我們再來研議、規劃並處理這個區塊。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:58:58.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:59:03.448000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，這樣聽起來部長也願意跟相關部會主管討論如何強化這個機制，對不對？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:59:03.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:59:04.870000+08:00","text":"那我們大概什麼時候可以來追蹤相關的進度呢？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:59:05.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:59:05.410000+08:00","text":"需要多久的時間？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:59:21.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:59:22.522000+08:00","text":"3個月好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:59:22.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:59:23.482000+08:00","text":"3個月喔？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:59:23.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:59:29.325000+08:00","text":"因為這個是跨部會，並不是只有本部的事情，這個可能還要到行政院……","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:59:33.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:59:34.708000+08:00","text":"你們一定會先有一個初稿嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:59:36.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:59:39.121000+08:00","text":"我們先照會，我們還要再……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:59:39.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:59:40.522000+08:00","text":"3個月好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:59:41.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:59:42.284000+08:00","text":"3個月就要有相關的進度，好嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T09:59:42.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:59:42.904000+08:00","text":"好，我們再跟委員報告。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:59:43.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T09:59:57.116000+08:00","text":"接下來有關這次民法第一千零五十二條的修法，即夫妻如果五年內分居累計達三年，就可以向法院訴請離婚。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T09:59:57.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:00:06.082000+08:00","text":"我想具體請教部長，分居的計算基礎到底是什麼？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:00:06.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:00:07.763000+08:00","text":"是沒有住在一起就算？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:00:08.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:00:11.364000+08:00","text":"還是要完全沒有共同生活才算？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:00:12.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:00:24.028000+08:00","text":"如果有人因為工作，譬如在兩地工作，沒有住在一起；或有人要照顧家長、照顧長輩、照顧小孩沒有住在一起，這樣到底算不算分居？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:00:24.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:00:25.409000+08:00","text":"在定義上到底算不算？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:00:25.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:00:25.629000+08:00","text":"這部分我請司長來回答。可以。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:00:30.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:00:41.711000+08:00","text":"報告委員，目前民法對「分居」兩個字並沒有定義，但在相關法制中，分居是常見的文字，且在一般社會通念上是容易理解的。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:00:42.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:00:44.232000+08:00","text":"所以還是要回到夫妻之間履行……","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:00:44.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:00:45.592000+08:00","text":"現在寫的是持續分居三年……","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:00:45.592000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:00:46.592000+08:00","text":"對，沒有履行同居義務……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:00:45.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:00:48.393000+08:00","text":"並不是寫持續分居，而是五年內累計分居三年……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:00:53.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:00:54.156000+08:00","text":"是，我們要採累計制。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:00:54.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:00:59.098000+08:00","text":"至於累計制所要處理的，倒不是像今天住一起、明天沒住一起、後天又要住一起的這種零散狀態。","quality":0.641},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:00:59.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:01:09.124000+08:00","text":"我們真正要處理的是可能會有數段，比如一年或一年半，在五年內累計、累加起來超過三年的狀況。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:01:09.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:01:12.566000+08:00","text":"所以法院要開始計算日子，是嗎？其實……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:01:12.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:01:12.906000+08:00","text":"要計算日子？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:01:13.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:01:18.027000+08:00","text":"其實不管採連續制或累計制，都會有這個問題。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:01:18.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:01:26.330000+08:00","text":"因為我們的立法方向是，只要那一天是處於無正當理由而未共同居住的狀況，即可能構成實務上所講的分居……","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:01:26.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:01:28.390000+08:00","text":"不好意思，司長，我想請教一個狀態。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:01:31.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:01:35.152000+08:00","text":"表面上看起來法是要放寬離婚的自由，對不對？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:01:35.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:01:39.534000+08:00","text":"但是事實上，如果有一方比較經濟強勢，他本來就可以住外面，對不對？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:01:40.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:01:49.537000+08:00","text":"他住外面，加上他比較有資源，這樣會不會讓造成相對比較弱勢的……因為可能要顧小孩、沒有辦法搬出去住的人因此被離婚？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:01:50.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:01:50.878000+08:00","text":"這有沒有可能？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:01:54.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:02:05.163000+08:00","text":"你現在講的是計算，那麼相對來說，他不想跟他一起住，所以自己去外面住，這樣會不會造成經濟弱勢的人反而陷入不利處境呢？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:02:05.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:02:07.143000+08:00","text":"無論採連續制或採累計制都會有這個問題……","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:02:07.143000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:02:11.506000+08:00","text":"都會有，沒錯！","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:02:11.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:02:15.429000+08:00","text":"有沒有分居或所謂的不同居，其實是一個互相的狀態。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:02:16.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:02:19.071000+08:00","text":"至於請求時會不會顯失公平？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:02:19.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:02:28.297000+08:00","text":"我們在第一千零五十二條草案的第二項但書裡面，其實有苛刻或顯失公平的條款去調解這種可能產生極端不公平的狀況……","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:02:29.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:02:33.901000+08:00","text":"我懂你的意思了，我覺得在實務上法院到底要如何判？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:02:35.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:02:36.103000+08:00","text":"其實涉及到舉證會不會有問題。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:02:36.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:02:55.124000+08:00","text":"我想請教司法院，若現在採累計制，在修法之後你們要去計算分居多少時間，這在實務上有什麼難度？","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:02:55.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:02:57.046000+08:00","text":"你們對這個法條的看法是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾廳長宗霖","start":"2026-04-23T10:02:58.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:03:14.713000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，本院曾多次研究與蒐集外國立法例，我們現在是定以持續、客觀不同住達到一定年限。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾廳長宗霖","start":"2026-04-23T10:03:16.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:03:20.276000+08:00","text":"至於各國立法例都是持續、一直繼續的狀態中。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"鍾廳長宗霖","start":"2026-04-23T10:03:21.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:03:29.881000+08:00","text":"因為這當中如果有剛剛委員所舉例的事實，它會發生主觀跟客觀怎麼認定的問題，這非常難！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"鍾廳長宗霖","start":"2026-04-23T10:03:29.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:03:36.625000+08:00","text":"所以我們找到的國外立法例幾乎都是以連續不同住的客觀事實……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:03:36.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:03:41.788000+08:00","text":"所以不是像現在這樣可能有一段時間住在一起，有一段時間沒有住在一起，是這樣子嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:03:41.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:03:44.329000+08:00","text":"所以國外跟我們現在的立法方向不太一樣，是嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鍾廳長宗霖","start":"2026-04-23T10:03:44.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:03:51.430000+08:00","text":"在國外不會這樣子，在國外若當中有中斷就不算了，都是以持續兩年或持續三年來訴請判決……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:03:51.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:03:58.032000+08:00","text":"好，所以司法院目前對於這樣子的方向持不同意見，對嗎？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:03:58.032000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:03:59.032000+08:00","text":"聽起來是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾廳長宗霖","start":"2026-04-23T10:03:58.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:04:00.672000+08:00","text":"我們是提出這樣的建議，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:04:00.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:04:01.053000+08:00","text":"好，了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:04:01.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:04:05.513000+08:00","text":"所以還是會回到法院在實務上到底能不能執行的問題了。是。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:04:06.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:04:08.494000+08:00","text":"好，了解了，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:04:09.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:04:10.415000+08:00","text":"抱歉，我再問最後一題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:04:11.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:04:14.813000+08:00","text":"現在再回到法務部，我還有一個說法。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:04:15.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:04:37.391000+08:00","text":"對於這次第一千一百十五條與第一千一百十六條把尊親屬跟卑親屬拉得太近了，我擔心這會讓未成年子女應該擁有的優先保障權反而變得不夠清楚。","quality":0.603},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:04:39.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:04:51.382000+08:00","text":"不管是部長或代司長，我想請教，未成年子女跟長輩在法律上的保障應該是一樣的嗎？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:04:51.382000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:04:53.160000+08:00","text":"我請司長答復。可以。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:04:53.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:04:53.440000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的垂詢。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:04:55.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:05:01.704000+08:00","text":"按照扶養的相關規定，目前是把直系血親卑親屬和尊親屬都放在同一序列。","quality":0.548},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:05:01.704000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:05:03.765000+08:00","text":"所以我現在的問題是在於……","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:05:03.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:05:05.586000+08:00","text":"並沒有去區分成年或未成年，但……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:05:05.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:05:11.789000+08:00","text":"對，所以我覺得未成年跟長……一個3歲的小孩跟一個65歲的長輩，在法律的保障上應該是一樣的嗎？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:05:11.789000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:05:14.270000+08:00","text":"一個是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:05:14.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:05:19.752000+08:00","text":"這其實是涉及社會倫常的判斷，跟我們社會是不是有凝聚共識。所以……","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:05:19.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:05:20.752000+08:00","text":"因為我們的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:05:20.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:05:21.613000+08:00","text":"所以副司長沒有辦法告訴我。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:05:22.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:05:32.157000+08:00","text":"一個3歲的未成年子女，無法工作、完全無法自立的小孩，在法律上面的保障應該回到社會倫常是嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:05:32.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:05:42.181000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們其實不能只看這一條，整個看扶養規定的話，所謂的扶養權利人所受的扶養權利，必須以他不能維持生活且無謀生能力來看。對啊。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:05:43.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:05:52.449000+08:00","text":"當然對尊親屬某一些部分有放寬，但是對於嬰兒來講是絕對符合這兩款，所以他享有的扶養權利是比較強的。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:05:53.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:05:56.212000+08:00","text":"但是你現在是放在同一個位階、同一個順序。","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:05:56.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:05:59.595000+08:00","text":"它在第一千一百十七條會另外做處理，我們不會只看這條，我們會看整個體系。","quality":0.719},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:06:02.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:06:10.161000+08:00","text":"好，所以你覺得在整個體系來看，未成年子女的保障上面其實還是有被法律保障，對嗎？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:06:10.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:06:11.161000+08:00","text":"你的意思是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:06:11.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:06:11.581000+08:00","text":"當然有保障而且……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:06:12.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:06:13.502000+08:00","text":"他的優先性有被保障？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:06:14.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:06:24.308000+08:00","text":"應該還會看個案的具體狀況，因為未成年有分很多狀況，未成年子女可能已經17歲了、在工作但沒有就學或者他是3歲的幼兒。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:06:24.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:06:32.371000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，我請教司法院對於這部分的看法是什麼？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:06:32.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:06:44.757000+08:00","text":"因為我認為未成年的子女優先保障權，其實在現在的立法上是會被模糊掉的，不曉得司法院的看法是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾廳長宗霖","start":"2026-04-23T10:06:44.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:06:51.359000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我可不可以請我們調辦事專門研究這方面的郭法官很迅速、摘要的回答？可以","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"郭法官躍民","start":"2026-04-23T10:06:53.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:07:20.253000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們認為未成年子女的扶養義務應該要優先，所以要釐清，尤其在第一千零八十四條到底要怎麼適用，現在第一百一十六條都已經成為問題了，行政院現在的版本把它放在一起，更會出現類似三明治的狀況，而且還會有減輕扶養義務的問題，所以我們建議先不要修扶養的部分。了解。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"郭法官躍民","start":"2026-04-23T10:07:20.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:07:27.798000+08:00","text":"扶養的部分要整個檢討，因為扶養義務人其實有點太廣泛了，將近100年了，應該要作一些檢討與修正，謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-04-23T10:07:28.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:07:45.322000+08:00","text":"了解，這樣聽起來，法務部提出的修法版本和司法院好像還有需要整合的部分，我希望雙方應該要一併整合，避免修法後我們在實務或判決上造成困難，好嗎？謝謝。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T10:07:45.822000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:07:47.822000+08:00","text":"謝謝張雅琳委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T10:07:48.122000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:07:54.122000+08:00","text":"接下來請沈發惠委員，沈發惠委員，沈發惠委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（張委員雅琳代）","start":"2026-04-23T10:07:54.422000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:07:56.993429+08:00","text":"接下來請莊瑞雄委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}