{"error":false,"id":["168791"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168791,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168791","日期":"2026-04-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-36-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-23T10:19:29+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-23T10:36:18+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:49","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442d8a41ef4bbdc0d425ab56d7e35fc4ecfd3cfaf5c3773194deb30719eee88c9bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:19:29 - 10:36:18","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-3院會付委）\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-7院會付委）\n（四）委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「民法第一千零三十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-6院會付委）\n（八）委員林月琴等22人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-9院會付委）\n（十二）委員黃捷等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員范雲等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第（十八）、（十九）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（二）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（四）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（五）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（六）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（七）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n【第（七）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（八）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.523468750000001,"end":10.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.763468750000001,"end":12.383468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.974093750000002,"end":15.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.37846875,"end":17.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.25596875,"end":20.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.88846875,"end":24.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.00596875,"end":26.929718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.250343750000003,"end":33.915968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.713468750000004,"end":41.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.603468750000005,"end":36.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.93659375,"end":39.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.91034375,"end":47.618468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.049093750000004,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.49159375,"end":50.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.91346875,"end":50.453468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.53784375,"end":50.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.62221875,"end":50.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.65596875,"end":50.892218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.94284375,"end":55.212218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.854093750000004,"end":61.945343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.55284375,"end":76.67721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.95659375000001,"end":74.78721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.31846875000001,"end":77.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.40659375,"end":94.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.07096875,"end":104.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.74034375000001,"end":108.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.79034375,"end":111.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.35096875,"end":117.54846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.13909375,"end":124.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.45034375,"end":131.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.92596875,"end":133.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.93409375000002,"end":133.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.95096875000002,"end":136.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.35596875000002,"end":135.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.83659375000002,"end":152.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.39534375000002,"end":157.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.12471875,"end":174.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.55909375000002,"end":158.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.77596875,"end":178.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.96534375000002,"end":180.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.91846875000002,"end":181.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.79596875000001,"end":183.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.04034375,"end":198.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":184.40721875,"end":186.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.72596875000002,"end":197.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.31221875,"end":203.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.87721875000003,"end":218.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.51346875000002,"end":209.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.97284375,"end":210.15846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.91659375,"end":220.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.38471875000002,"end":226.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.99534375000002,"end":230.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.93159375000002,"end":239.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.57159375,"end":254.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.21909375,"end":254.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":254.23596875,"end":264.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.55659375000002,"end":256.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.63096875,"end":292.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAK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謝謝主席在這裡有請政部長先請政部長好 有請政部長委員好部長好 我們好久不見了上個禮拜四本席這個安排的考察怎麼可以臨時爽約呢"},{"start":27.604,"end":41.72,"text":"這不是因為那個有那個其他的會議要做我想的臨時爽約就是我們都已經全部安排好了你看連我們的零千級委員都買了那個車票提前都到了"},{"start":42.99,"end":61.505,"text":"花蓮然後你這樣臨時爽我們約喔真的不應該啦好不好不應該啦我沒有同意啊重點是我沒有同意好了而且呢這個基本上我們的當時安排已經是一個禮拜之前就已經講了對然後你是呢前一刻"},{"start":62.646,"end":72.177,"text":"我們要這個第二天要去考察然後你前一刻五點鐘才告訴我們說你要請假不能去對不對這樣的話基本上其實我跟妳講部長妳在這邊跟我們道歉我也就接受了對不對"},{"start":80.598,"end":107.787,"text":"現在竟然可以這麼不尊重立法院召委所安排的這個考察行程不過就是說我們上次的考察沒成功可是沒有成行我們基本上會繼續再排考察我希望就是部長以後要尊重立法院司委會這裡的這個安排我們不是不盡人情但是這樣臨時耍我們基本上是很不應該的那接下來我想請教就是我們法務部的"},{"start":109.257,"end":130.015,"text":"這個正次黃謀信最近他已經被行政院提名要當中選會的委員我想請教部長在過去有沒有這個案例啊有沒有這個前例就是我們法務部的次長及以上人物曾經有被戒掉曾經有去當中選會的委員"},{"start":132.557,"end":149.805,"text":"這個是沒有潛力沒有潛力 那為什麼會有這樣的一個安排我想這個是一個堅韌的委員我想這個對我們法務部的業務推動應該是沒有影響而且提供法律上的一個專業的意見"},{"start":152.495,"end":171.253,"text":"所以認為說他這樣子的這個去擔任中選會委員不會影響到法務部的業務嗎因為這次請那個我們黃某信次長因為他法學的我想委員都很清楚他法學非常的精湛那而且他沒有黨派他沒有黨派的"},{"start":173.14,"end":177.884,"text":"那當然 如果說 蔡經輝檢察官你說要去調查他們有屬於黨籍嗎他現在不是檢察官 他現在是次長是 我知道 對對對那我想他是因為他檢察官出身嘛我意思是講 他其實去看這個之後可能要不要也請你們提供給我們資料就是現在法務部"},{"start":190.393,"end":215.734,"text":"底下所屬的檢察官然後呢有多少人是有正式加入黨政黨的我們現在應該基本上沒有嘛現在那個法官法我們是完全是不能參加政黨的所以這個沒有黨派的黃謀欣市長他肯定是沒有加入任何的這個政黨不過我這邊是要講的一個議題就是說是因為呢今天這個新聞裡面喔也有在講國安會的這個"},{"start":218.997,"end":227.025,"text":"就是國安會的諮詢委員準備要找一位檢察官去當法務助理那當然這個新聞報導之後就輿論嘩然這個為什麼"},{"start":235.56,"end":251.113,"text":"要再調派一位檢察官去這個國安會可是呢本席其實有看到法務部所發布的新聞稿那麼事實上好像是不是長久以來就是法務部都會借調一位檢察官"},{"start":251.793,"end":271.356,"text":"去派駐在國安會呢?沒有這回事我們檢查全部就調辦室就是在法務部調辦室但是因為我們大概每個都有分工就譬如說有些是打詐的有些是毒品的有些是附幼的有些是國安的因為法務部也是屬於國安的一個安全體系的一環"},{"start":271.997,"end":292.629,"text":"就像我們那個國家安全法啦反滲透法啦還有一些的包括我們偵辦的一些的譬如說那個營業秘密法或者是一些像某些科技公司的那些所以這些要去我們是扮演一個協助各機關在有國安的安全體系的我想今天大家比較關注的那個焦點就是說是那這個戒掉調辦的這位"},{"start":302.434,"end":309.896,"text":"檢察官那他到底他的辦公地點在哪裡在保護部這個我請檢察司副司長來答這個有在規劃來請告訴我們報告委員我們尋程序還有因為是我們的業務需求所以針調那個甲官到部裡面來辦事那我們有規劃他的那個辦公的空間所以那位甲官過來的時候辦公室是在甲四的辦公室所以他的正式的名稱叫做什麼他的職務的名稱調辦事主任甲官"},{"start":328.942,"end":357.62,"text":"是叫法務部檢察司國安會的辦事不是就是介調法務部的調辦事主任檢察官介調法務部的調辦事主任檢察官所以他的辦公地點並不是在國安會但是他的業務就是去支援國安會不是他的業務是跟國安法制相關的不是資源是國安法制就負責比方說國安的相關的法制啊或者是像經濟間諜罪啊然後就是海蘭七法軍事審判法就是跟國安相關的法制內容"},{"start":358.817,"end":364.747,"text":"好那麼如果說是這樣子的情況之下的話我希望就是法務部也要在"},{"start":365.653,"end":392.028,"text":"你們檢察官的體系裡面要把這件事情講清楚因為這個事情看起來是從你們檢察官的內網裡面所提報這個新聞而且看起來大部分的檢察官也許並不知道否則的話怎麼會有說是去當國安會諮詢委員林志傑的法務助理那這樣子的一個情況事實上是就代表說可能法務部自己內部的溝通也出現了問題"},{"start":393.709,"end":409.184,"text":"他不知道說到底為什麼會有這樣的一個處理的方式所以這部分其實我們是這部分是有公告的喔是有公告的寫得非常清楚那我想這部分所以我們正式發信法寫得非常的詳細非常詳細我想說這個委員有手上有我們的新聞稿"},{"start":414.709,"end":436.046,"text":"那當然就從這個議題裡面呢接下來我要延伸的就是說是我也希望能夠了解到底現在這個檢察署有多少的人力是借調或是借調到各個機關或是借調到法務部的人力也就是調辦室的檢察官有多少那所以也請法務部你們可以在一個禮拜之內可以提供給我相關的資訊過去五年"},{"start":438.508,"end":459.048,"text":"調辦室檢察官有多少要調任的期間以及分佈在哪些單位然後法務部有沒有派駐在國安會的人員名冊如果按照高部長講似乎是沒有派駐在國安會的人員名冊好那麼最後我要在這個議題上面我想要講就是說因為基層的地檢署基本上大家工作量都非常大"},{"start":460.008,"end":488.94,"text":"然後大多數的檢察官都過勞所以大家也會去思考就是說到底現在這個調辦室的制度檢察官借調的制度到底合不合理那我也希望法務部這邊能夠通盤檢討畢竟在早期這個段宜康民進黨的立委段宜康他當時曾經也批評過那時候的時任法務部部長羅英雪說檢察官的借調制度混亂那麼也批評就是說不可以把"},{"start":490.121,"end":501.214,"text":"這個就政府執政黨不可以把檢察官當成是法務助理這樣會糟蹋司法官那本席希望說鄭部長你可以把這個議題好好的去這個檢討好不好"},{"start":504.646,"end":525.691,"text":"我想這個謝謝委員的一個指導那我想包括司法院我們都是因為這個是包括司法的這是相當的一個專業那的確是要有調辦事譬如說涉犯調法官去辦事因為有些是法案的問題這部分檢察官也是法案的問題這個都非常的專業高度的專業那這部分的話就麻煩請你給我一個資料好那這部分我們再來提供資料我們之後有機會的話我們再來討論那接下來我可能還要再請那個中廳長"},{"start":537.121,"end":563.361,"text":"這個本席基本上有注意到這次其實司法院對於行政院的這個民法親屬偏的修正案其實有很多的不同的意見包含像1052條的分居的定義1057條的贍養費還有撫養義務102條的提出財產清測等等這些規定那麼有些是認為說你們的意見有些是認為說是跌床架屋目前的規定其實已經夠處理了所以草案還有很多要討論的地方"},{"start":563.841,"end":579.299,"text":"那接下来本期想要请教的两个问题第一个就是说在目前的夫妻财产揭露义务的执行上面行政院版基本上他的夫妻财产揭露义务主要是还是focus比较聚焦在所谓的传统的财产型的义务"},{"start":580.512,"end":604.217,"text":"那么可是我们知道现在的这个财产已经不限制于是传统的财产还包含所谓的虚拟财产所以对于虚拟财产的部分的未来是不是可以把它列为就是在财产清算上面必须要公开的项目以及在目前实务上面到底虚拟货币虚拟财产有没有列入剩余财产这个部分不晓得可以请中厅长来回答"},{"start":604.617,"end":620.743,"text":"像委員報告在我們實務家事法庭審判有關剩餘財產分配如果這種虛擬貨幣足以確認計算或請專家鑑定它的價值在實務一律都是列入可分配的財產"},{"start":621.983,"end":627.925,"text":"那至於說在法律上要不要增訂怎麼增訂那我們很尊重主管機關的一個增訂那可不可以請部長就是針對這個議題就是未來我們在夫妻揭露財產異物的這個財產在夫妻財產揭露異物之下我們要去"},{"start":641.91,"end":668.164,"text":"公開這個財產清澈是不是應該要放入虛擬資產你認為這部分是不是應該要加入因為這是一個新型態的一個財產的一個佈置嘛那我想這個我們沒有去排除虛擬資產因為虛擬資產還是財產包括我們那個財產申報都包括虛擬的資產是 但是就是說因為在這次法條上面沒有講得很清楚那這不就是這個在我們那個這個未來是不是可以在修正動力的時候立法說明來處理這個區塊"},{"start":670.345,"end":684.196,"text":"所以在立法說明裡面有加入這個虛擬財產嗎?可以加入那個立法說明裡面如果說你們也同意這個方向當然本席也可以提案提到時候提一個修正動議可以把虛擬財產也放入到就是為了要公開的財產計算裡面因為財產包括實體產業跟虛擬的資產嘛那這邊我們在立法說明這邊把它"},{"start":689.36,"end":693.823,"text":"那再明確化 讓我們這更沒有爭議最後一個議題我想就是針對所謂的分居這次其實司法院對於法務部所提案的有關於分居的規定也有不同的意見那目前行政院的法務部版本的徵定所謂的分居條款是五年之內要累計分居達三年才可以肅請離婚"},{"start":713.954,"end":717.979,"text":"那司法院的草案則是認為說要不分居就是連續不分居達三年而且在繼續狀態當中然後才可以肅請離婚那麼其實針對這個部分因為這也涉及到實務上的判斷的問題本席基本上是比較支持司法院的一個看法"},{"start":730.874,"end":757.237,"text":"那麼我也想了解就是說行政院的版本認為說這個分居五年之內累計分居達三年你們這個是到底是要去怎麼去定義怎麼去計算那個期間到底是指的是物理上的分開住還是說他只要主觀上面我沒有維持婚姻的義務我可能在同一個屋簷下但是是分房這樣就算是分居而且中間有時好時壞怎麼樣去累計那個三年的時間"},{"start":764.161,"end":780.61,"text":"其實我們在定義這五年內累積滿三年的時候我們是試圖建立一個客觀的標準這有參考德國因為德國他也是要有一個分開的推定前三年以上他就推定婚姻不能維持只是說我們更進一步因為我們是目標是要朝向破產主義讓他比較好證明"},{"start":783.351,"end":798.341,"text":"因為連續這個事情其實是比較難證明的反之他很容易被反正推翻所以我們用了比較對於婚姻裡面破綻維持上面比較能夠維護破綻主義精神不過事實上你剛剛講的話其實也涉及到舉證的問題可能到時候雙方當事人會有意見不一樣的地方接下來我想請教鍾廷長就是說在食物上面來講有沒有類似你們現在做的這個相關的食物的判決裡面"},{"start":811.249,"end":820.317,"text":"那麼有沒有類似這種對於累計計算分居的期間三年然後你就認為說這個其實已經構成報告委目前如果與這個破綻在舉證的時候通常這個律師雙方公訪難免有但是非常難舉證因為"},{"start":833.248,"end":848.184,"text":"有為子女而住在一起去可能是一個月兩個月有為工作有為其他就像剛剛說的分房所以最終這種訴訟最後都很難認定所以產生這個訴訟上的困擾跟律師舉證的困難"},{"start":850.726,"end":876.259,"text":"因為這也是本席認為說這其實在實務上可能會造成這個判斷上面的困難那這邊的話我本席也會有另外一個建議也可以請法務部去思考因為其實在歐美國家他們基本上有些會採取所謂登記制度分居的登記制度那法務部當時沒有去思考嘛譬如說像現在丹麥挪威等等這些國家他們會在網站上面先申請一個分居"},{"start":878.159,"end":899.266,"text":"有一個申請分居登記那分居期滿譬如說六個月或一年之後就可以正式的申請離婚那我覺得分居制度至少還有個客觀的這個第三人的一個公正的一個制度這樣的話未來在訴請裁判離婚的時候也比較有一個好的證明你們沒有往這方面去思考嗎這部分我請那個市長來好請市長 是"},{"start":906.888,"end":928.898,"text":"報告委員我們在這次明碼修正到底要不要放一個有關所謂的法定別具或是法定分具制度其實在研究小組是有討論過不過因為這部分意見非常分散沒辦法形成共識那因為這次我們的修法主要還是迫切的要因應我們限盤制還有C的要求所以這部分我們之後會再通盤檢討如果實際有成熟我們會再繼續研議"},{"start":929.738,"end":954.91,"text":"好 那我也想請中廳長司法院這邊的意見如果說是未來採取分居登記制度會不會對於你們要審理相關的裁判離婚的案件會更有幫助是 報告委員有關這樣一個登記制度是在外國的立法例我們在研究跟蒐集上還有專家諮詢都有論述跟我們法務部的陳述我們是一樣的但是如果從實務面的研究"},{"start":955.43,"end":983.766,"text":"它是如果我們建立制度的健全是在訴訟上是反而也是非常更有更有明確的一個裁判基礎但是呢我國民情的關係因為你去登記以後然後後面的一個分居常常會造成又有舉證上的一個歧義跟困擾所以這有待這個整合來研究看怎麼我們沒有反對也會尊重主管機關的意見謝謝"},{"start":984.827,"end":1006.752,"text":"因為這個本席基本上會認為說我們現在離婚結婚都採登記制度那麼如果說是分居未來能夠採登記制度的話可能也可以就是讓未來有相關的這個這個爭議案件的時候法院會更好處理這是本席的看法好的那今天本席質詢到這邊然後也謝謝主席寬容給我更多的時間來來詢答謝謝謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}