{"error":false,"id":["168797"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168797,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168797","日期":"2026-04-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-36-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-23T10:36:25+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-23T10:47:21+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:56","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442dcd06f75f2de25605ab56d7e35fc4ecfd3cfaf5c3773194d6175e7c94f56e9555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"10:36:25 - 10:47:21","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-3院會付委）\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-1-7院會付委）\n（四）委員吳秉叡等21人擬具「民法第一千零三十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員范雲等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-6院會付委）\n（八）委員林月琴等22人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。（11-3-9院會付委）\n（十二）委員黃捷等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等18人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員范雲等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「民法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第（十八）、（十九）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院、司法院函請審議「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（二）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員陳素月等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（四）委員賴惠員等24人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（五）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（六）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（七）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「民法親屬編施行法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n【第（七）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（八）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":8.637218750000002,"end":12.164093750000003,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":12.61971875,"end":13.41284375,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":15.79221875,"end":16.602218750000002,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":17.04096875,"end":32.51534375,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":32.68409375,"end":37.05471875,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":37.611593750000004,"end":74.53409375000001,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":74.90534375,"end":98.98596875000001,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":99.27284375,"end":99.42471875000001,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":99.47534375000001,"end":106.78221875000001,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":107.47409375000001,"end":136.61721875,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":137.07284375,"end":138.84471875,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":138.91221875000002,"end":141.98346875000001,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":142.27034375,"end":162.55409375000002,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":163.36409375000002,"end":184.81221875,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":185.45346875,"end":197.89034375,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":196.03409375,"end":196.64159375,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":197.89034375,"end":198.58221875,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":198.58221875,"end":198.59909375,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":198.59909375,"end":202.00784375,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":198.61596875,"end":228.09659375,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":226.98284375,"end":233.91846875000002,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":233.09159375000002,"end":240.02721875,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":236.24721875,"end":239.55471875,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":241.86659375000002,"end":256.86846875000003,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":245.76471875000001,"end":246.18659375000001,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":249.49409375000002,"end":250.55721875,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":257.13846875,"end":263.92221875,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":264.15846875,"end":264.39471875000004,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":264.79971875,"end":267.41534375000003,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":266.26784375,"end":279.97034375000004,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":268.07346875,"end":268.27596875,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":280.05471875,"end":285.04971875,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":285.60659375,"end":286.65284375000005,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":287.63159375000004,"end":293.06534375,"speaker_score":0.964},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":291.69846875,"end":292.00221875,"speaker_score":0.977},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":292.67721875,"end":292.84596875,"speaker_score":0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因為過去只能夠因為生活陷於困難所以10年內只有21件那你因為21件這件事情那非常多的相關的律師那他們其實會很擔心你留在那裡反而造成困擾"},{"start":390.603,"end":405.806,"text":"那這邊根據婦女薪資基金會的研究訪談律師說這個代號都是律師兩位律師都認為爭取贍養費會讓法院質疑當事人的撫養能力因為當事人若符合請求撫養費的生活陷於困難"},{"start":406.994,"end":430.945,"text":"那就不利於他爭取監護權因此在訴訟策略上一旦當事人提出申請監護權的意願的時候律師就會建議他放棄請求善養費所以基本上你留了生活陷於困難那也對律師來講的話其實是非常不利的所以我們還是建議法務部回去好好的思考一下是不是"},{"start":431.385,"end":455.604,"text":"拿掉因離婚而生活陷於困難因為自證生活陷於困難也可能使得他有了贍養費就失去了監護權是當事人會陷於贍養費跟監護權二選一的這個兩難那這個是專業律師而且常常打離婚相關的律師們的建議那您如果不同意說拿出你們的數字"},{"start":456.585,"end":470.399,"text":"當然那個委員剛才有提到說21件當然是案件不多但是因為就是案件不多所以我們就有去討論就是說有離分時就會能力減損就會減少這都是一個選項這是或不是說"},{"start":472.455,"end":490.238,"text":"一定要再加上生活困難這是一個或或生活困難也用這個理由來申請那另外或那個如果說有我覺得這個東西就是要實證資料你們是法務部應該有能力做這個研究如果法官認為的生活限於困難已經是中低收入戶的話"},{"start":490.959,"end":512.725,"text":"那當事人本來就可以尋蹤低收入戶的據說因為10年來只有21件你們因為是生活陷於困難那你是不是拿出相關的數字再來認證它留在這因為法務部不是在處理我們是屬於民法的主管至於那個實務上的數據這次主管修法是你們嗎"},{"start":517.249,"end":524.53,"text":"我們是法規主管機關 但是因為家事法院是司法院修法不應該拿出數據嗎 判決的數據才知道這個法條留在那裡 法院會怎麼判嘛 法官怎麼判嘛那我還是請你們研議 因為你們的報告說還沒做好所以我今天就繼續來問這題 好不好那聽起來就是還是沒有統計數字 那我想"},{"start":542.814,"end":554.811,"text":"就是婦女團體他自己做的研究然後這麼多的離婚相關的律師看到這個困境那是不是如果你堅持要放在那你要拿出數據說服我們大家好嗎"},{"start":557.3,"end":576.349,"text":"那還是請你拿出數據研議到底要不要移除生活限於困難好嗎因為我的時間不多了那您要答我先檢要回覆委員的槌尋第一個是上次委員槌尋只是事項我們已經回覆了可能還在辦公室可能要再確認那第二件事情是說"},{"start":577.989,"end":599.68,"text":"我們雖然沒有做因為我們手上沒有司法統計資料但是21件這個數據我們在報端也有看到不過我們當時有初步上網去看一下其實當初21件會這麼少人員其實很多是卡在所謂的判決這個要件以及所謂的無過失的要件倒不是生活陷於困難這個要件完全就排除掉了所以我們就把兩大壁壘拿掉了因為離婚律師都是實戰經驗他們的當事人為什麼不建議他申請那第二點就是說為什麼離婚律師會這樣建議那是著眼於現行法"},{"start":606.323,"end":624.037,"text":"因為未來我們是其實會有所謂的A套餐跟B套餐你可以選擇要吃哪一個套餐A套餐就是說我是生活陷於困難類型B套餐就是我是所謂的勞動機會或是勞動能力減損的類型那生活陷於困難如果是中低收入戶的話是不是本來就有中低收入戶的幫助重點不是在一個生活困難重點是因為我們現在的法律是採無過失的一個主義如果說採破綻主義的話我想生活困難這部分的那個案例會用這個理由"},{"start":635.145,"end":654.338,"text":"就可以 案件就會增多了那律師還有訪談律師的婦女團體的研究他看到的是實質的部分好嗎那我想如果你要保留在那裡就要拿出數據來說服好不好這部分我們再來講好 我們再仔細對話那支持那個昭偉說辦公廳會能夠一次修到好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:36:34.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:36:37.692000+08:00","text":"謝謝雅琳代主席，有請鄭部長。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T10:36:37.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:36:40.974000+08:00","text":"有請鄭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:36:40.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:36:41.254000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:36:42.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:36:42.755000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:36:43.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:37:10.608000+08:00","text":"我們今天的主題是關於民法離婚的相關修法，因為我來自婦女團體，其實這幾年婦女團體的立場都是如果今天離婚真的已經無法避免的話，如何在制度上儘量能夠讓雙方好聚好散，保障未成年子女的權益，還有第三點就是弱勢的配偶如何給他合理的保障？","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:37:11.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:37:19.850000+08:00","text":"所謂弱勢，從我們的角度來講，是因為婚姻犧牲職涯發展跟經濟機會的一方。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:37:20.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:37:38.865000+08:00","text":"所以我是滿肯定今天召委的排審，因為這個法案非常重要，剛剛莊瑞雄召委說要開公聽會，我也非常支持，因為我覺得有更多專業的討論，可能會讓我們這一次的修法能夠一次把它做好。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:37:40.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:38:03.714000+08:00","text":"我自己從2021年開始就跟婦女團體一起努力，希望聚焦在完善離婚後的經濟保障制度，從2021年就來司法委員會質詢，2025年我們還開記者會支持弱勢母親的經濟自主，希望離婚的法制能大改革，去年6月我也提出了我的版本。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:38:04.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:38:11.496000+08:00","text":"不知道法務部是不是記得本月初我的質詢肯定院版有三項突破？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:38:12.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:38:28.670000+08:00","text":"第一個，不只無過失能請領贍養費；第二個，不只判決離婚能請領贍養費；第三個，正視因婚姻、生育、家庭，而減少的就業機會、職涯發展、經濟能力。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:38:29.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:38:52.143000+08:00","text":"但是我上次也跟法務部提出，我覺得你們的修法、你們的版本有3個未竟之處：第一個，沒有移除原本「生活陷於困難」的要件；第二個，再婚就不能夠繼續請領贍養費；第三個，離婚財產的分配沒有納入職業年金。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:38:53.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:39:18.856000+08:00","text":"上次我有告訴你們為什麼會這樣主張，根據婦女新知基金會的研究，被法院判決可以請領贍養費的，10年之間只有21件，跟各個國家比起來都是非常非常低的，所以這一次如何讓贍養費真的可以領到而且是合理的，非常重要。","quality":0.856},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:39:19.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:39:29.407000+08:00","text":"部長可以回應我，上次我有請你們回去針對要移除生活陷於困難做研究，你們研究的情況如何？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:39:31.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:39:41.592000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，的確有統計數字，符合生活陷於困難的要件者雖然是少，但還是有……多少？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:39:42.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:39:46.055000+08:00","text":"過去法院判決符合生活陷於困難……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:39:47.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:39:59.442000+08:00","text":"這部分我沒有統計資料，但是實務上有判斷的標準，有件實例，像最高法院80年度台上字第168號判決就有對陷於困難這部分具體的表示意見，代表有實際上的個案。","quality":0.554},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:40:00.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:40:10.888000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，事實上，這次民法修正有放寬，就是說真的有事實需要，即就業能力減損跟就業機率減少，這個選項……好。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:40:12.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:40:18.133000+08:00","text":"但是我的重點是，上次已經質詢過，你們還把生活陷於困難放在那。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:40:18.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:40:18.313000+08:00","text":"我們有檢討、檢視過，我們認為還是有留下的……","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:40:18.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:40:19.654000+08:00","text":"有多少人判決上符合這個條件？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:40:19.654000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:40:20.654000+08:00","text":"這個我們是沒有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:40:20.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:40:21.355000+08:00","text":"你們沒有統計為什麼要放在裡呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:40:21.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:40:24.497000+08:00","text":"如果在法院實務上幾乎很少很少人能夠符合所謂生活陷於困難，你放在那裡不是讓法官有機會就往那裡判了？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:40:42.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:40:48.743000+08:00","text":"這只要有舉證……這只是一種類型而已。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:40:49.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:40:51.204000+08:00","text":"有多少這種例子被法院判決？","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:40:51.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:41:28.576000+08:00","text":"因為生活困難跟就業機會減少及就業能力減損是不同範疇，譬如說，我是有就業能力，但是為了要扶養未成年子女沒辦法去就業，其實我的就業能力沒有減損，我的就業機會是沒有……但是礙於我主觀因素，不是我客觀沒有機會，所以陷於困難這部分我們認為還是要當作贍養費的請求事由。","quality":0.856},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:41:29.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:41:40.608000+08:00","text":"鄭部長，我們就是要從你們的實證基礎來討論，因為法務部一直拿不出相關統計。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:41:40.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:41:51.238000+08:00","text":"我要講的事情是，你如果保留生活陷於困難作為贍養費的請領要件，恐怕會讓這一次的改革只做一半。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:41:53.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:41:58.162000+08:00","text":"根據婦女團體自己做的研究，因為你們沒有研究，別人幫你做研究。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:41:58.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:42:08.229000+08:00","text":"就像我剛剛講的，婦女新知基金會的研究，10年間贍養費請求判准只有21件，全國只有21件。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:42:08.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:42:22.238000+08:00","text":"然後85.6%的律師不建議請，因為不符合生活陷於困難，所以已經有快要九成的律師都不建議他的當事人請，因為不符合。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:42:23.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:42:29.623000+08:00","text":"真的去請求那百分之十幾的律師，在他們的案例中有84.9%。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:42:32.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:42:37.028000+08:00","text":"被法官因為請求人並沒有陷於生活困難而駁回。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:42:39.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:42:55.043000+08:00","text":"因為過去只有生活陷於困難嘛，所以10年內只有21件，因為21件這件事情，非常多相關律師他們其實會很擔心，你留在那裡反而造成困擾。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:42:56.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:43:01.332000+08:00","text":"根據婦女新知基金會研究訪談的律師所說，這個代號都是律師。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:43:01.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:43:14.395000+08:00","text":"兩位律師都認為，爭取贍養費會讓法院質疑當事人的扶養能力，因為當事人若符合生活陷於困難請求扶養費，就不利於他爭取監護權。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:43:14.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:43:24.180000+08:00","text":"因此，在訴訟策略上，一旦當事人提出申請監護權意願的時候，律師就會建議他放棄請求贍養費。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:43:24.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:43:30.282000+08:00","text":"所以基本上，你留了生活陷於困難，對律師來講，其實也是非常不利的。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:43:30.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:43:39.768000+08:00","text":"所以我們還是建議法務部回去好好地思考一下，是不是拿掉因離婚而生活陷於困難。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:43:39.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:43:53.259000+08:00","text":"因為自證生活陷於困難，也可能使得他有贍養費就失去監護權，使當事人陷於贍養費跟監護權二選一的兩難。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:43:53.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:44:00.584000+08:00","text":"這個是專業律師，而且常常打離婚相關的律師們的建議，您如果不同意，是不是拿出你們的數字？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:44:01.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:44:09.233000+08:00","text":"委員剛才有提到21件，當然案件是不多，但是就是因為案件不多，所以我們有去討論。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:44:10.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:44:23.223000+08:00","text":"離婚時就業能力減損或就業減少，這都是選項，這是「或」不是說一定要再加上生活困難，也可以用「或」生活困難這個理由來申請。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:44:23.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:44:25.185000+08:00","text":"另外如果說有就業能力……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:44:26.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:44:31.073000+08:00","text":"部長，我覺得這要實證資料，你們法務部應該有能力做這個研究。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:44:31.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:44:46.582000+08:00","text":"如果法官認為的生活陷於困難，已經是中低收入戶的話，當事人本來就可以循中低收入戶……因為10年來只有21件，你們因為是生活陷於困難……","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:44:46.582000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:44:47.582000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，司法院家事法院應該有用生活……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:44:47.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:44:52.664000+08:00","text":"你是不是拿出相關的數字再來論證，讓它留在這裡？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:44:52.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:44:55.884000+08:00","text":"司法院才有數據，因為不是法務部在處理，我們是屬於民法主管機關。","quality":0.607},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:44:56.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:44:57.045000+08:00","text":"至於實務上的數據，司法院……","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:44:57.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:44:57.725000+08:00","text":"這次主管修法的是你們嘛？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:45:02.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:45:03.849000+08:00","text":"我們是法規主管機關，但是因為家事法院是司法院……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:45:03.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:45:04.890000+08:00","text":"對，法規主管機關修法不應該拿出判決的數據嗎？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:45:04.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:45:06.490000+08:00","text":"才知道這個法條法官會怎麼判嘛！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:45:06.490000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:45:07.750000+08:00","text":"司法院對這個應該沒有反對意見……","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:45:07.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:45:09.310000+08:00","text":"我還是請你們研議，因為你們的報告說還沒做好，所以我今天繼續問這題，聽起來就是還沒有統計數字。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:45:09.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:45:39.811000+08:00","text":"我想婦女團體自己做的研究，然後這麼多離婚相關律師看到這個困境，如果你堅持要放在那，你要拿出數據說服我們大家，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:45:42.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:45:48.283000+08:00","text":"還是請你拿出數據，研議到底要不要移除「生活陷於困難」，好嗎？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:45:48.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:45:50.844000+08:00","text":"因為我的時間不多了，您要答復？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:45:51.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:46:00.488000+08:00","text":"我先簡要回復委員垂詢，第一，上次委員垂詢的指示事項我們已經回復了，可能還在辦公室、要再確認。","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:46:00.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:46:20.318000+08:00","text":"第二件事情，因為我們手邊沒有司法統計資料，但是21件這個數據，我們在報端也有看到，當時有初步上網去看一下，當初會這麼少原因，其實很多是卡在判決這個要件以及無過失的要件，倒不是生活陷於困難這個要件完全就排除掉了。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:46:20.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:46:21.939000+08:00","text":"所以我們真的把兩大壁壘拿掉了……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:46:22.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:46:24.180000+08:00","text":"因為離婚律師都是有實戰經驗，為什麼不建議他們當事人申請？是。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:46:24.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:46:35.546000+08:00","text":"為什麼離婚律師會這樣建議，那是著眼於現行法，因為未來我們其實會有A套餐跟B套餐，你可以選擇要吃哪個套餐？","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝代理司長志明","start":"2026-04-23T10:46:35.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:46:42.131000+08:00","text":"A套餐是生活陷於困難類型，B套餐是所謂勞動機會，或者是勞動能力減損的類型，這兩個不會互斥……","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:46:42.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:46:46.575000+08:00","text":"生活陷於困難，如果是中低收入戶的話，是不是本來就有中低收入戶的補助？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:46:46.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:47:01.646000+08:00","text":"重點不是在生活困難，重點是因為我們現在的法律是採無過失主義，如果採破綻主義的話，我想用生活困難這個理由的案件就會增多了。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:47:01.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:47:02.687000+08:00","text":"這個我們都知道，我們現在講的是不同的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:47:02.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:47:08.170000+08:00","text":"律師還有婦女團體訪談律師的研究，他看到的是實質的部分。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:47:09.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:47:12.633000+08:00","text":"我想如果你要保留在那裡，就要拿出數據來說服，我們再仔細對話，好不好？","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-04-23T10:47:13.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:47:14.235000+08:00","text":"這部分我們再來……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-04-23T10:47:15.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T10:47:19.338000+08:00","text":"支持召委說辦公聽會，能夠一次修到好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席（莊委員瑞雄）","start":"2026-04-23T10:47:19.838000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:47:22.409429+08:00","text":"謝謝范雲委員的詢答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（莊委員瑞雄）","start":"2026-04-23T10:47:22.709429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:47:30.995143+08:00","text":"你看我排這個比較專業性的議程之後，大家的氣質跟專業都跑出來了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（莊委員瑞雄）","start":"2026-04-23T10:47:31.295143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:47:43.866571+08:00","text":"而且面向真的很多，整個離婚制度從各個面向來看的話，該要去保障或者要去突破的地方，確實該集思廣益。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（莊委員瑞雄）","start":"2026-04-23T10:47:44.166571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:47:49.023714+08:00","text":"接下來請鄭正鈐；鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（莊委員瑞雄）","start":"2026-04-23T10:47:49.323714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:47:53.038000+08:00","text":"林沛祥；林沛祥，林沛祥委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（莊委員瑞雄）","start":"2026-04-23T10:47:53.338000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T10:47:57.052286+08:00","text":"接下來請最專業的許宇甄委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}