{"error":false,"id":["168803"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168803,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168803","日期":"2026-04-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-19-10","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":10,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-23T11:01:45+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-23T11:09:27+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:42","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442c39e3c094052494647e947452b276263a9438ec9e4ea00b30e7e88b7d6e8a5905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"11:01:45 - 11:09:27","會議時間":"2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於公平交易委員會單位預算及附屬單位預算非營業部分關於公平交易委員會主管：反托拉斯基金。(詢答)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「土石採取法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃仁等36人擬具「土石採取法第三條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等19人擬具「土石採取法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員許智傑等31人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等24人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員丁學忠等16人擬具「土石採取法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「土石採取法第三十六條、第三十八條及第四十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(第十案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查) (詢答及處理)\n【4月22日及23日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":5.16096875,"end":6.629093750000001,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":7.11846875,"end":8.552843750000001,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":13.868468750000002,"end":53.15346875,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":49.55909375,"end":49.98096875,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":53.15346875,"end":53.65971875,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":53.862218750000004,"end":62.04659375000001,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":60.66284375,"end":132.24659375000002,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":132.29721875,"end":136.51596875,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":136.81971875000002,"end":151.28159375,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":150.58971875,"end":159.01034375,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":152.90159375000002,"end":153.25596875000002,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":158.55471875,"end":159.56721875000002,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":159.56721875000002,"end":193.82346875000002,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":194.12721875000003,"end":195.24096875,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":195.81471875000003,"end":199.30784375000002,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":199.30784375000002,"end":200.33721875,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":199.35846875000001,"end":199.96596875,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":200.33721875,"end":200.89409375000002,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":200.89409375000002,"end":209.28096875,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":209.58471875,"end":215.62596875000003,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":215.69346875000002,"end":216.25034375,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":216.25034375,"end":216.77346875,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":216.77346875,"end":244.02659375000002,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":219.08534375000002,"end":219.25409375,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":224.18159375000002,"end":225.61596875,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":241.42784375000002,"end":263.23034375000003,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":263.71971875,"end":321.24659375000005,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":264.36096875000004,"end":266.87534375,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":321.24659375000005,"end":327.40596875,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":321.51659375,"end":323.28846875,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":326.47784375000003,"end":330.78096875,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":328.19909375000003,"end":328.99221875,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":330.86534375,"end":356.11034375,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":356.59971875,"end":365.81346875,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":366.16784375000003,"end":373.17096875000004,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":368.69909375000003,"end":368.96909375,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":373.77846875,"end":381.62534375,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":378.75659375000004,"end":380.42721875,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":381.59159375,"end":401.03159375,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":401.03159375,"end":416.96159375,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":417.13034375,"end":424.97721875,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":424.65659375,"end":444.75471875000005,"speaker_score":0.934},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"賴次長建信","start":445.14284375000005,"end":447.15096875,"speaker_score":0.957},{"speak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我們請次長請經濟部來次長"},{"start":14.8,"end":34.899,"text":"市长好我想今天有非常多的委员根据土石采取法提出很多的修正特别是第36条我想呢大概过去的法规都放在这个地方但是因为美农大小股的事件那个实在是挖的让大家太触目惊心了所以就有很多委员纷纷的就提高法则特别把这个所谓的刑法给他放进去"},{"start":35.279,"end":41.282,"text":"事實上這些很多的罰則全部都在這裡面的我們就一一來審視以我們這樣的修法來說的話有沒有辦法遏止這樣子的一個狀況那基本上你剛剛在質詢台上說兩個禮拜之後院版就會出來因為我剛剛看一下你們的報告這個方向跟委員的修法其實都大同小異沒錯吧"},{"start":53.968,"end":65.478,"text":"是 但是我們希望針對於蓄意而且是牟利的所謂的稻採行為好那我們就來看看一些蓄意好不好那我們就來看這個細則的一個條文當中那你看你只要構成條件是意圖盈利對不對意圖盈利的話你要除五年以下還有有些時候可以併科五千萬以下的罰金"},{"start":75.427,"end":95.435,"text":"那我認為盜採沙士這是完全不可以原諒的但是呢有些的條文上面我們是不是有商榷的一個空間舉例來說你並沒有去區分合法申報瑕疵跟惡意非法盜採的差別這兩個是有一個差別因為你剛所提到的意圖意圖在法律的用字上面是我們構成犯罪的一個核心條件但是呢它是屬於一個比較是屬於個人的心理的狀態"},{"start":99.437,"end":101.878,"text":"那如果法官在做審判的時候呢可能會透過自由新政的方法來認定意圖是否存在那你如果沒有做區分的話我必須要老實講有些時候可能他只是在申報數量的一個誤差所以我說他是合法但是有瑕疵"},{"start":115.123,"end":118.927,"text":"有些人是完全是蓄意就是要來拿這些你沒有把它區分清楚的話很多公務員會因為怕事又因為KPI的關係搞不好在這個地方他就會這樣子完全集中火力完全就是來給你重罰那這個部分裡面可能會造成一些錯殺會不會有這樣問題你們跟法務部在這個用詞上面有沒有做過一些的討論"},{"start":137.998,"end":158.498,"text":"這個在過去修法的過程裡面我們跟法務部做討論至於說針對於合法或是民眾自用的部分小量的採取我們原來在採取法的第三條裡面就有六個條我認為還是要有一個空間所以說你這個部分裡面法上上去的話在解釋上面一定要更明確這是我所擔心的謝謝委員指導"},{"start":159.639,"end":175.516,"text":"还有一个就是说你看虽然我刚讲了嘛每一个人都有这个法条但是呢你在执行上面你这个即使是罚到2500他的获利是3亿5亿的这个还是一样所以你一定要有一些配套那当然你也提到了这一定要看地方政府的一个执行的一个层面啊那"},{"start":176.597,"end":184.94,"text":"往往就是因為很多人都是拿人頭來啊 這個次長你也知道嘛 拿人頭嘛所以以至於他違規的時候 地方政府要代為整復的時候常常面臨 娶沒人 也沒人給我交的處罰金那你要怎麼辦 這個措施你要怎麼辦他沒有辦法繳出罰金啊 你擺在那邊怎麼辦"},{"start":195.991,"end":207.156,"text":"第一個我們透過包括刑法的部分的一個建立刑法是目前為止我認為是最有效但是我說你拿不到因為你要讓他恢復原狀嘛因為有時候債務組他沒錢你要怎麼辦所以說怎麼辦所以我們現在在修法的部分有包括所謂的得代理刑的這個部分"},{"start":215.782,"end":231.085,"text":"代旅行費用的預存是不是不是代旅行因為代旅行費用的預存的話就是代表說有申請人他先去繳說那很多人口報繳不起啊那事實上現在全國的所謂的合法的所謂土石採取場數量是非常少的"},{"start":231.645,"end":245.671,"text":"但是我們現在發現的問題他不是在合法採取的過程裡面來產生非法的這個行為所以他蓄意針對完全沒有申請的部分你法擺在那個地方可是我們倒採"},{"start":246.912,"end":262.754,"text":"在倒彩的這個說實在還是非常多因為利益太大了所以我就說你一切的配套措施還有包括檢舉舉報的這個獎金的機制其實你都要思考法是一回事到最後都會通過因為每個人都有一致的方式但是執行的層面你一定要給他更多的一個"},{"start":263.775,"end":272.341,"text":"一個配套好不好這是非常重要的最後給我一分鐘的時間我對於翡翠水庫來說的話我還是要請問一下翡翠水庫今天是鬧得沸沸揚揚但是呢是監察院糾舉當初的水利署不好意思次長你就是當初的水利署署長你認為監察院這樣糾舉有沒有錯誤因為他認為是完全是浪費的水的一個資源而且對民生用水來說有太多珍貴的水源就是因為這樣子將流到大海去"},{"start":291.775,"end":315.951,"text":"所以監察院來糾舉水利署次長你那時候是水利署的署長你面對現在的爭議的話你真的要站起來因為我現在認為是翡翠水庫管理局曾經屬下的他們背著非常大的一個黑鍋我覺得整個問題都是我們能源的問題以至於讓我們用很多珍貴的水民間用的水 民生用的水必須要來承擔這樣的一個角色所以監察院才出這樣糾舉我不曉得大家在吵什麼這個冤有圖債有主啊 糾察院做這部分你同不同意 次長"},{"start":321.454,"end":326.16,"text":"監察院除了水利署之外還有台北翡翠水庫管理局但是水利署是一個很重要的一個角色嘛那我個人覺得嘛那時候監察院所講的其實是很清楚他就告訴你說民生占比只有30然後還有非常多的東西是流失"},{"start":340.778,"end":365.761,"text":"所以我个人认为在今天这么多争议什么得到便宜还卖瓜等等之类当中我觉得当初应该针对监察院所提出的纠正来做出一些的澄清到底翡翠水库有没有发生这样的状况发生这样的状况之下面我们该怎么样来处理次长我觉得你很认真但是在面对这件事情的时候你应该站出来针对你那时候的所整个的脉络跟过程也应该站出来讲一些的话吧"},{"start":366.349,"end":379.444,"text":"針對於稀缺的水資源我們就希望說有比較好的調控而且現在的預報的技術水平都是相當的高所以透過預報還有包括管理的層面可以減少水資源的浪費"},{"start":381.927,"end":398.706,"text":"對 我想只是說大家爭論的時候 我都覺得都已經爭論到其他太多政治上面議題 應該回歸到我們真正的能源 翡翠水庫的水是不是適合用來做於發電然後民間用水到底如何能夠在增其水資源之下 不要讓它過度浪費 這才是我們討論這件事情最大的重點"},{"start":401.229,"end":416.552,"text":"沒錯吧基本上多目標的水庫啊特別是像翡翠水庫啊或是像曾文水庫他都是不是以發電為主要目的他是一個附屬的我們希望他在發揮主要的蓄水供水的功能了之後"},{"start":417.273,"end":444.169,"text":"然後在附屬的這個部分和一些的發電的效益那這個過程裡面我們不希望水資源有所浪費所以我們說他有提出一些的改善你如果覺得經常因為這個改善可以你其實就應該好好來做我只是認為現在目前為止討論到這些問題的時候花太多時間都是在一些細微的政治操作而真正對於經常被所糾舉那一些我們應該做的改善甚至更高的一個能源物體我覺得那個才是我們大家應該共同focus的重點對不對"},{"start":446.002,"end":459.367,"text":"謝謝對於人所需要的不管是水跟電的部分經濟部一直很重視這個問題我們持續的來精進那兩個禮拜之後就看你們提出的願板好吧我剛剛說的土石對好謝謝好謝謝各位"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:01:50.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:01:50.406000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，我們請次長。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T11:01:50.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:01:50.567000+08:00","text":"請經濟部賴次長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-23T11:02:00.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:02:00.100000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:02:00.100000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T11:02:01.100000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:02:00.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:02:05.185000+08:00","text":"今天有非常多的委員對於土石採取法提出很多的修正，特別是第三十六條。","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:02:06.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:02:22.540000+08:00","text":"我想過去的法規大都是放在這個地方，但是因為美濃大峽谷的事件，那個實在是挖得讓大家太觸目驚心了，所以就有很多委員紛紛要提高罰則，甚至要把所謂的刑罰給放進去，事實上很多罰則全部都在這裡面了，我們就一一來審視。","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:02:22.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:02:23.401000+08:00","text":"以我們這樣的修法來說，有沒有辦法遏止這樣的狀況？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:02:23.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:02:24.521000+08:00","text":"基本上你剛剛在質詢台上說，兩個禮拜之後院版就會出來嘛！","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:02:24.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:02:39.429000+08:00","text":"因為我剛剛看了一下你們的報告，這個方向跟委員的修法其實都大同小異嘛，沒錯吧？是。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-23T11:02:39.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:02:45.694000+08:00","text":"我們希望針對蓄意，而且是有牟利的盜採行為有……好。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:02:46.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:02:47.876000+08:00","text":"我們就來看看一些蓄意，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:02:48.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:02:49.417000+08:00","text":"看到在這個細則的條文當中，構成要件是意圖營利，對不對？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:02:49.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:02:50.458000+08:00","text":"有意圖營利的話就要處5年以下，有些時候可以併科5,000萬以下的罰金。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:03:00.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:03:07.070000+08:00","text":"我認為盜採砂石是完全不可以原諒的，但是在某些條文上面我們是不是有商榷的空間？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:03:07.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:03:25.297000+08:00","text":"舉例來說，你並沒有去區分合法申報瑕疵跟惡意非法盜採的差別，這兩個是有差別的，因為你剛剛所提到的「意圖」，意圖在法律的用字上面是構成犯罪的一個核心條件，但是它比較是屬於個人心理的狀態，法官在審判的時候就可能透過自由心證的方法來認定意圖是否存在。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:03:25.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:03:43.406000+08:00","text":"你如果沒有區分的話，我必須要老實講，有些時候可能就只是申報數量上的一個誤差，所以我說它合法但是有瑕疵，有些完全就是蓄意，就是要來拿這些……你沒有把它區分清楚的話，很多公務員會因為怕事又因為KPI的關係，搞不好在這個地方，他就會完全集中火力給你重罰，在這個部分裡面可能就會造成一些錯殺，會不會有這樣問題？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:03:43.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:03:43.927000+08:00","text":"你有沒有跟法務部在這個用字上面做過一些討論？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-23T11:04:02.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:04:16.131000+08:00","text":"在過去修法的過程裡面，我們有跟法務部做過討論，至於針對合法或是民眾自用而小量的採取，我們原來在土石採取法第三條裡面就有6個態樣。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:04:16.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:04:23.398000+08:00","text":"我認為還是要有一個空間，所以你在這個部分，對法律條文的解釋上一定要更明確，這是我所擔心的，好不好？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-23T11:04:23.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:04:23.498000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的指導。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:04:24.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:04:40.336000+08:00","text":"還有一個就是，你看，雖然我剛剛講了，每個人都有這個法條，但是你在執行上面，即使罰到了2,500萬，他的獲利卻有3億、5億，這個還是一樣，所以你一定要有一些配套，當然你也提到了，這一定要看地方政府執行的層面。","quality":0.671},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:04:41.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:04:45.658000+08:00","text":"往往會因為很多人都拿人頭來，這個次長你也知道，就是拿人頭嘛！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:04:46.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:04:49.159000+08:00","text":"以至於他違規的時候，地方政府要代為整復的時候，常常面臨找不到人，也沒人能交罰金，你要怎麼辦？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:04:49.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:04:49.440000+08:00","text":"這個措施要怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:04:49.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:04:49.940000+08:00","text":"他沒有辦法繳出罰金，這個措施擺在那邊，你怎麼辦？","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-23T11:05:00.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:05:04.213000+08:00","text":"第一個是我們透過包括刑罰部分的建立來處理……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:05:04.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:05:10.615000+08:00","text":"刑罰是目前為止我認為最有效的，但是我說你罰不到，因為你要讓他恢復原狀，冤有頭債有主，他沒有錢，你要怎麼辦？","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:05:10.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:05:10.756000+08:00","text":"所以怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-23T11:05:10.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:05:12.136000+08:00","text":"所以我們現在在修法的部分有包括所謂得代履行這個部分。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:05:20.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:05:22.444000+08:00","text":"代履行費用的預存，是不是？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-23T11:05:22.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:05:28.413000+08:00","text":"不是，是代履行，代履行費用的預存代表有申請人先去繳……","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:05:29.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:05:30.456000+08:00","text":"很多人搞不好繳不起啊！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-23T11:05:31.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:05:48.771000+08:00","text":"事實上，現在全國合法土石採取場數量是非常少的，但是我們現在發現的問題是他不是在合法採取的過程裡面來產生非法行為，而是他蓄意針對他完全沒有申請的部分……","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:05:48.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:05:55.217000+08:00","text":"是，所以我才跟你說，你把法擺在那個地方，說實在，盜採的還是非常多，因為利益太大了。","quality":0.657},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:05:55.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:06:01.485000+08:00","text":"所以我就說，一切的配套措施，還有包括檢舉舉報的獎金機制，你都要思考。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:06:01.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:06:09.536000+08:00","text":"法是一回事，到最後都會通過，因為每個人都有一致的想法，但是執行的層面，你一定要有更多配套，好不好？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:06:10.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:06:10.937000+08:00","text":"這是非常重要的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-23T11:06:10.937000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T11:06:11.937000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-23T11:06:11.937000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T11:06:12.937000+08:00","text":"細節的部分，我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:06:11.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:06:13.859000+08:00","text":"主席，最後給我1分鐘的時間，對於翡翠水庫的事情，我還是要請問一下，翡翠水庫的事情今天是鬧得沸沸揚揚，但是監察院是糾正當初的水利署，不好意思！","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:06:13.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:06:14.819000+08:00","text":"次長，你就是當初的水利署署長，你認為監察院這樣的糾正有沒有錯誤？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:06:14.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:06:38.936000+08:00","text":"他認為這完全是浪費水資源，而且對民生用水來說，有太多珍貴的水資源就是因為這樣流到大海去，所以監察院來糾正水利署。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:06:39.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:06:44.260000+08:00","text":"次長，你那時候是水利署署長，面對現在這個爭議，你真的要站起來！","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:06:44.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:07:00.530000+08:00","text":"因為我現在認為翡翠水庫管理局背了一個非常大的黑鍋，我覺得這整個問題都是我們能源的問題，以致於讓我們很多珍貴的水、民間用的水及民生用的水必須要來承擔這樣一個角色，所以監察院才提出糾正，我不曉得現在大家在吵什麼，這個冤有頭債有主。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:07:00.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:07:00.911000+08:00","text":"監察院糾正這個部分，你同不同意？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:07:00.911000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T11:07:06.454000+08:00","text":"次長，你是當初的署長耶！","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-23T11:07:06.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:07:07.035000+08:00","text":"監察院糾正的機關除了水利署之外，還有臺北翡翠水庫管理局，基本上……","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:07:07.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:07:40.872000+08:00","text":"我知道，但是水利署是一個很重要的角色，我個人覺得監察院所講的其實很清楚，他就告訴你，民生用水占比只有30%，還有非常多水資源是流失的，所以我個人認為，在今天會有這麼多爭議、什麼得了便宜還賣乖等等之類的當中，當初應該針對監察院所提出的糾正來做出澄清，到底翡翠水庫有沒有發生這樣的狀況，發生這樣的狀況，你們該怎麼樣來處理？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:07:41.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:07:50.741000+08:00","text":"次長，我覺得你很認真，但是在面對這件事情的時候，你應該站出來，針對你那時候的整個脈絡和過程講一些話吧！","quality":0.587},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-23T11:07:51.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:08:04.444000+08:00","text":"針對於稀缺的水資源，我們是希望有比較好的調控，而且現在的預報技術水平都是相當高，所以透過這個預報，還有包括管理層面，可以減少水資源的浪費。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:08:04.444000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T11:08:06.927000+08:00","text":"完全同意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:08:06.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:08:26.390000+08:00","text":"我現在只是說，大家在爭論的時候，我覺得都已經爭論到太多其他政治上面的議題，應該回歸到我們真正的能源，翡翠水庫的水是不是適合用來發電，還有民間用水到底如何能夠在珍惜水資源之下不要過度浪費，這才是我們討論這件事情最大的重點，沒錯吧！","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-23T11:08:26.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:08:49.717000+08:00","text":"基本上，多目標水庫，特別是翡翠水庫或是曾文水庫，都不是以發電為主要目的，它是一個附屬的部分，我們希望他在發揮主要蓄水、供水功能之後，在附屬的這個部分能有一些發電的效益，這個過程裡面，我們不希望水資源有所浪費。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:08:49.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:08:54.720000+08:00","text":"所以他有提出一些改善，你如果覺得監察院這個改善可以，就應該好好來做。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:08:54.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:09:11.002000+08:00","text":"我只是認為，目前為止，討論到這些問題的時候，都是花太多時間在一些細微的政治操作，但是監察院所糾正的那一些我們應該做的改善，甚至更高的能源問題，我覺得才是我們大家應該共同focus的重點，對不對？謝謝。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-23T11:09:11.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:09:18.925000+08:00","text":"對於人民所需要的，不管是水或電的部分，經濟部一直很重視這個問題，我們持續來精進。好。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:09:19.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:09:20.846000+08:00","text":"兩個禮拜之後，就看你們提出的院版，好不好？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:09:22.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:09:23.147000+08:00","text":"我剛剛說的土石……","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴次長建信","start":"2026-04-23T11:09:23.147000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T11:09:24.147000+08:00","text":"你剛剛說的土石採取法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-04-23T11:09:23.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T11:09:23.847000+08:00","text":"對，好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T11:09:24.347000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T11:09:26.347000+08:00","text":"謝謝柯志恩委員。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T11:09:26.647000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T11:09:29.789857+08:00","text":"接下來請張嘉郡委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}