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我們請部長有氣質的部長歡迎 您好部長好 部長在這個4月份 4月2號是社工日我們彰化這邊也有舉辦這個社工的表揚大會那在會場上面 其實社工也表達他們的工作其實這個面對的第一線"},{"start":27.401,"end":42.382,"text":"他們很多都是這個協助一些弱勢族群那在這個凱凱案的這個審判一審宣判就是說負責個案訪視的這個社工一過失致死判處有期徒刑兩年"},{"start":43.423,"end":59.555,"text":"那這個判刑之後其實很多社工會覺得他們在這個社會安全網的其中一個他們要面對第一線那如果是這樣子的話其實他們承受的非常大的壓力我想請教部長就是說"},{"start":62.697,"end":84.609,"text":"這個這個宣判之後其實未來有可能社工會有一個出走潮其實社工的工作壓力面對的壓力非常大再來就是說他其實薪資也不高啦那面對這樣的一個狀況部長你怎麼樣來這個止血就是說這個宣判下去其實社工他們"},{"start":85.709,"end":107.098,"text":"私底下也會講啦就是說這個工作確實高壓然後薪資也不是那麼好所以他們出走之後那未來這些弱勢族群或者是社會安全網的其中一員那你要怎麼樣來補足或者是說怎麼樣讓社工的工作環境能夠好一點"},{"start":108.623,"end":126.05,"text":"跟委員說明當然在這個事件發生我們是覺得非常的遺憾那我們也一再的表達我們會做社工的後盾所以在這個判決下來之後那麼大家比較有爭議的這個保證人地位這件事情"},{"start":126.57,"end":153.44,"text":"那麼我們也在明天下午會邀請法界大家來討論討論出一個方式那麼我們來持續的跟這個法界溝通那第二個呢那還是要回到這個如果是以這個案子來講他是在收租養的過程當中那麼就由社工去扛責了那我們在這個事件之後也改變了那麼一定在收租養的過程當中地方政府要扮演一定的角色不要讓社工獨自面對"},{"start":154.6,"end":173.054,"text":"那第三個當然對於社工的人力的補充還有這個薪資津貼那麼這些我們也會持續的來改善那包含我們在社安法2.0裡面那麼也預計在持續的去螺絲更多的社工的人員"},{"start":173.875,"end":188.247,"text":"那當然也要搭配這個資訊系統的整合那麼包含一些AI的協助讓他的工作負荷也能夠得到一些緩解所以這些我們都在努力的在做"},{"start":189.028,"end":193.511,"text":"其實社工這個工作需要有很大的勇氣跟熱情其實我們看到就是說彰化這邊的接受表揚的這些社工其實他們在這個社工的這個工作有的就是時間都已經很長那就是有那個熱情才有辦法做這麼久"},{"start":207.742,"end":224.936,"text":"所以我覺得說衛福部應該是要成為社工的一個最好的一個後盾那個未來怎麼樣讓他們的工作這個環境能夠更好我覺得應該是衛福部這邊應該要做的其實社工的工作很多時候跟醫護人員差不多"},{"start":225.696,"end":252.283,"text":"他面對的這個個案的狀況其實有時候差異很大然後也有很多的不預期性那甚至有時候還有急迫性要處理像保護性社工經常是晚上就可能也要臨時出來處理所以他的這個工作高壓然後風險也不低所以我覺得應該要有不同的思維那我們絕對是做社工的後退"},{"start":253.844,"end":271.217,"text":"其實我們看到這個就是說社工跟保母那社工跟保母之間其實也不是說這個監督或者是被監督的這樣一個關係其實應該是一個這個協助跟合作的一個關係所以其實我看到"},{"start":273.358,"end":289.947,"text":"這個社工被判刑其實我覺得說一個社工他如果說一個月才去訪視一次那如果保姆有意要隱瞞的話其實社工其實也很難去看出來所以剛剛部長有特別提到可能就是有一些協助可能要有一些"},{"start":290.968,"end":318.56,"text":"其他的一個協助對社工來講可能我是覺得說還要有額外的其他的一個協助才會讓這個社工才不會因為未來的其他的事件然後造成社工一個很大的一個負擔對就是當然我們盡量讓這個制度體系做得更好來接觸每一個孩子但是對於執行者這個社工而言那麼如果結果"},{"start":319.9,"end":336.453,"text":"不如預期那我們也需要回頭來看看這個注意義務啦並不是說不好就絕對是有過失還是要回頭來看看他的注意義務以及他的專業材料這個其實跟我們這個醫事人員的這些專業其實是很類似的"},{"start":339.555,"end":363.888,"text":"當然就是說有一些可能需要去檢討的部分那需要檢討需要改進那當然就是剛剛講的可能縣市政府這邊也許還有其他的督導那是不是也要給其他在第一線的人可能要如果說有一些疏忽可能在第一線在座其實他也許沒有發現那後面的督導可能也要給他一些協助"},{"start":365.889,"end":383.725,"text":"這個是跟起始理論一樣常常都是很多的環節上出了問題才會看到最後這個結果所以我們來做一些制度或系統上的改善那部長剛剛也有委員特別問到就是說社工昨天有到行政院遞交陳情書"},{"start":384.966,"end":400.145,"text":"那像這樣子的話其中有一部分就是說這個訴求社工非社安網執行者不是制度漏接唯一承擔者那像這樣子的話就是說我們部長對於社工的這個訴求你的回應是怎樣"},{"start":400.806,"end":426.245,"text":"對 就跟我剛剛所提到的這個就是像那個乳酪理論一樣啦一個看到最後的這個結果當然很不幸可是中間是有很多環節上沒有接住所以我們才會在這個事件之後呢做了一些改善改變包含這個資訊的串流啦那麼包含這個制度上這個地方政府應該扮演的角色要把它進來"},{"start":427.626,"end":455.225,"text":"那這些都是其實都是從這個事件之後我們做的一些改善我們就一件一件的來做這樣的我是覺得說針對這個制度可能有時候也是要做一個通盤的檢討是的不好的部分當然就是要去做一些改善那剛剛部長也有特別提到就是說社工的這個部分整個這個工作的這個環境然後職業的環境職業的這個安全的部分其實我們也要一併去考慮"},{"start":457.706,"end":471.07,"text":"其實我會覺得說社工的這個工作真的確實因為他們第一線面對的可能都是我們社會當中的一些比較弱勢的族群那有時候他們在訪視的時候"},{"start":473.592,"end":498.05,"text":"這些族群他們訪視的時候可能又會把一些這個壓力或者是他訴說的一個狀況就是社工了解之後其實社工的壓力也是很大因為他聽到可能有一些就是負面的負面的情緒所以社工其實他的壓力也非常的大那我也希望就是說這個我們部裡面針對社工的這個職業安全或者是"},{"start":500.171,"end":512.726,"text":"也許社工他搞不好自己也需要心理諮商我覺得其實我會碰到很多譬如說我們家福的一些社工其實他們到第一線去訪視之後"},{"start":515.269,"end":534.269,"text":"社工他們會講說這個家庭的狀況那有時候如果社工本身心理狀況不是那麼堅強的話其實他的情緒也是會有一些起伏所以我們也希望一方面就是讓社工有一個安全的這個職業環境那另外就是說社工的心理"},{"start":534.95,"end":562.043,"text":"心理狀況其實我覺得我們也要去注意啦那讓更多人願意投入社工的這個工作要不然其實我覺得這個判刑出來之後其實很多人會覺得說那我就去隨便找一個工作他的這個工作環境也許還比社工好那薪水也許也會比社工還高所以我覺得這方面也是我們這個部裡面未來要去注意的"},{"start":562.903,"end":587.768,"text":"我們來強化那個對社工的那個心理支持的部分我們來強化好那這個工作是這個整個工作環境是最重要的啦如果說社工有這個熱情有這個熱心有這個熱情投入那如果整個環境對他是不利的話其實我覺得那個未來社工的出走潮應該是會一波接著一波好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":590.228,"end":592.135,"text":"好 謝謝我們黃秀芳委員發言"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:04:52.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:04:52.164000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T12:04:52.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:04:52.224000+08:00","text":"請石部長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:04:52.224000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T12:04:53.224000+08:00","text":"黃委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:04:52.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:04:52.324000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:04:52.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:05:48.574000+08:00","text":"4月2號是社工日，我們彰化也舉辦了社工表揚大會，會場上，很多社工表達他們的工作是在第一線協助弱勢族群，但在剴剴案的審判過程中，一審宣判負責個案訪視的社工依過失致死判處有期徒刑兩年，判刑之後，很多社工認為他們是社會安全網的其中一員，但要面對第一線，如果是這樣的結果，將讓他們承受非常大的壓力。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:05:49.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:06:11.446000+08:00","text":"我想請教部長，這個宣判之後，未來社工有可能會有出走潮，其實社工面對的工作壓力非常大，他的薪資也不高，面對這樣的一個狀況，部長，你怎麼樣來止血？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:06:12.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:06:38.098000+08:00","text":"就是這個宣判下去，其實社工私底下也會講，這個工作確實高壓，薪資也不是那麼好，所以他們出走之後，未來協助這些弱勢族群的或者是社會安全網的其中一員，你要怎麼樣來補足或者是怎麼樣讓社工的工作環境能夠好一點？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:06:39.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:06:43.785000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，這個事件發生，當然我們是覺得非常遺憾！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:06:44.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:06:48.006000+08:00","text":"我們也一再表達，我們會做社工的後盾。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:06:48.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:07:06.513000+08:00","text":"所以在這個判決下來之後，針對大家比較有爭議的保證人地位這件事情，我們也會在明天下午邀集法界大家來討論，討論出一個方式，我們來持續跟法界溝通。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:07:07.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:07:24.440000+08:00","text":"第二個、還是要回到制度，以這個案子來講，是在收出養的過程當中，就由社工去扛責，在這個事件之後，我們也改變了，在收出養的過程當中，地方政府要扮演一定的角色，不要讓社工獨自面對。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:07:25.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:07:56.285000+08:00","text":"第三個、對於社工的人力補充，還有薪資津貼，當然我們也會持續來改善，包含在社安網2.0裡面，我們也預計再持續羅致更多社工人員，當然也要搭配資訊系統的整合，包含AI的協助，讓他的工作負荷也能夠得到一些緩解。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:07:57.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:07:59.227000+08:00","text":"這些我們都努力在做。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:08:00.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:08:31.092000+08:00","text":"好，其實社工這個工作需要有很大的勇氣和熱情，我們看到彰化接受表揚的這些社工，他們有的在社工這個工作的時間都已經很長，就是有熱情，才有辦法做這麼久，所以我覺得衛福部應該要成為社工最好的後盾，未來怎麼樣讓他們的工作環境能夠更好，我覺得是衛福部應該要做的。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:08:31.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:08:50.900000+08:00","text":"一定、一定，其實社工的工作很多時候跟醫護人員差不多，他面對的個案狀況有時候差異很大，也有很多不預期性，甚至有時候還有急迫性要處理，像保護性社工，經常晚上可能也要臨時出來處理……沒錯。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:08:51.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:08:55.321000+08:00","text":"所以他的工作高壓，風險也不低。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:08:56.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:09:03.023000+08:00","text":"我覺得應該要有不同的思維，我們絕對是做社工的後盾。好。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:09:05.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:09:20.956000+08:00","text":"我們看到社工與保母，社工與保母之間其實也不是監督與被監督這樣的關係，應該是協助與合作的關係。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:09:21.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:09:35.524000+08:00","text":"看到這個社工被判刑，我覺得如果社工一個月才去訪視一次，保母有意要隱瞞的話，社工也很難去看出來。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:09:35.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:09:59.215000+08:00","text":"所以剛剛部長有特別提到，可能要有一些其他協助，對社工來講，我是覺得還要有額外的其他協助，未來社工才不會因為其他事件造成很大的負擔。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:09:59.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:10:27.313000+08:00","text":"對，當然我們儘量讓這個制度體系做得更好，來接住每一個孩子，但是對於社工這個執行者，如果結果不如預期，我們也需要回頭來看看這個注意義務，並不是不好就絕對有過失，還是要回頭來看看他的注意義務，以及他的專業裁量，這個跟醫事人員的專業其實是很類似。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:10:30.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:10:54.868000+08:00","text":"是，當然有一些可能需要去檢討的部分，需要檢討、需要改進，就是剛剛講的，可能縣市政府還有其他督導，在第一線的人如果有一些疏忽，他在做也許沒有發現，後面的督導可能也要給一些協助……","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:10:56.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:11:09.040000+08:00","text":"對、對、對，這個就是跟起司理論一樣，常常都是很多環節上出了問題，才會看到最後這個結果，所以我們來做一些制度或系統上的改善。好。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:11:10.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:11:25.418000+08:00","text":"部長，剛剛也有委員特別問到，就是社工昨天有到行政院遞交陳情書，其中有一個訴求是社工是社安網執行者，不是制度漏接唯一承擔者。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:11:29.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:11:31.145000+08:00","text":"對於社工的這個訴求，部長的回應是怎樣？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:11:31.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:12:05.331000+08:00","text":"對，就我剛剛所提到的，這個就像乳酪理論一樣，看到最後的這個結果當然很不幸，可是中間是有很多環節上沒有接住，所以我們才會在這個事件之後做了一些改善、改變，包含資訊的串流、包含制度上，地方政府應該扮演的角色要進來，這些都是從這個事件之後我們做的一些改善，我們就一件一件來做。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:12:06.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:12:11.455000+08:00","text":"我是覺得，針對這個制度，可能有時候也是要做一個通盤檢討……是的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:12:12.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:12:26.225000+08:00","text":"不好的部分，當然要去做一些改善，剛剛部長也有特別提到，社工的這個部分，整個工作環境、執業環境、執業安全的部分，我們也要一併去考慮……好。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:12:28.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:13:02.385000+08:00","text":"其實我會覺得社工這個工作確實壓力非常大，因為他們第一線面對的可能都是社會當中比較弱勢的族群，有時候他們在訪視的時候，這些族群可能又會訴說一些壓力，或者是一些狀況，社工了解之後，因為他聽到的可能一些是負面情緒，所以社工的壓力也非常大。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:13:03.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:13:14.756000+08:00","text":"我也希望部裡面針對社工的執業安全，或者是搞不好社工自己也需要心理諮商，真的，我覺得……有。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:13:16.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:13:37.061000+08:00","text":"其實我會碰到很多，譬如家扶的社工，他們到第一線去訪視之後，個案會講家庭的狀況，有時候如果社工本身的心理狀況不是那麼堅強的話，他的情緒也是會有一些起伏。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:13:37.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:13:54.234000+08:00","text":"所以我們也希望一方面讓社工有一個安全的執業環境，另外，社工的心理狀況，我們也要去注意，才能讓更多人願意投入社工這個工作。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:13:54.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:14:13.023000+08:00","text":"要不然，我覺得這個判刑出來之後，很多人會覺得隨便找一個工作，這個工作的環境也許還比社工好，薪水也許也比社工還高，所以這方面也是部裡面未來要去注意的。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:14:13.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:14:19.144000+08:00","text":"是，我們來強化對社工心理支持的部分，我們來強化。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:14:19.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:14:38.448000+08:00","text":"好，整個工作環境是最重要的，如果社工有熱心、熱情來投入，但是整個環境對他是不利的，我覺得未來社工的出走潮應該是會一波接著一波。是。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-04-23T12:14:38.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:14:38.748000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:14:38.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:14:38.768000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T12:14:41.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:14:43.115000+08:00","text":"謝謝黃秀芳委員發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T12:14:43.615000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T12:15:03.615000+08:00","text":"跟委員會報告，今天中午繼續開會，待全數委員詢答完畢後，再行休息；現在可以把便當發下去，一邊用餐；也請在下方的委員們可能要注意到聲音，因為會影響到人家的質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T12:15:03.915000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T12:15:06.772143+08:00","text":"接下來請范雲委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}