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有請部長有請施部長"},{"start":13.503,"end":30.316,"text":"陳委員好部長好我今天跟您談這個收出養的問題對一個孩子來說他被出養大概對醫生是非常重大的一個影響或是改變但是就我個人的實務經驗來說其實收出養這個制度它影響的至少有三方面"},{"start":30.976,"end":52.137,"text":"一個是就是出養家庭所謂的原生家庭孩子本身當然有但是對於收養家庭其實也是都是一生非常長期而且不是很容易做的功課那部長這個經過凱凱案之後整個收養制度我國收出養制度依照現行的方式是由地方政府來負責出養的必要性評估"},{"start":55,"end":58.664,"text":"然後有民間媒合這個機構來負責這個收養家庭評估媒合還有兒童這個追蹤的這個發展等等等等但是問題我覺得不是有沒有分工而是說分工之後有沒有足夠的專業能力去接住這項高度專業的這個工作"},{"start":73.84,"end":79.003,"text":"那過去民間機構他是專責的但是現在地方政府他們是用第一線的社工來做這件事他等於是監辦然後還有案件的這個量重然後個案又分散老實說他們那個經驗的累積不容易所以事實上他的整個評估標準就是說"},{"start":93.632,"end":108.017,"text":"他自然會有落差這是我非常重視一件事情那利新基金會其實早在去年五月他就發文提醒了無論是社會局的家庭福利組的社工或是在全國各地社福中心基層的人員"},{"start":109.377,"end":124.803,"text":"他們本來的工作是聚焦在這個所謂的社區支持跟初期的預防那在出養必要性這個理解上他在理解上或許還不是很充足所以社家屬是不是可以讓我們了解說目前的狀況如何當把這個工作交給他們的時候"},{"start":128.684,"end":144.339,"text":"你們做了哪些努力跟委員說明大概現在統計大概一年大概差不多200案的收出養需求那我們是全國大概是建置156個社福中心所以以負荷來講這個到"},{"start":146.761,"end":159.605,"text":"倒不如其他其他的案量可能更多那再來就是這個收出養的這個媒合機構這個確實是一個重點我今天不好意思我現在談的就不是說那個量的問題我剛剛很強調一個專業嘛因為過去是專責但是可看到你們做的"},{"start":164.206,"end":187.538,"text":"不同的一些分工所以剛剛大概也有提到說那麼盡量把他的這個專業的這個能力提升所以也發展了那個叫收出養必要評估的報告的格式大概要評估哪一些東西然後再辦理這個教育訓練的課程我聽說現在有一些課程啊那請問社家屬這個課程你的師資夠嗎課程的我本來以為就是說你們會說現在對於這個"},{"start":193.993,"end":200.799,"text":"要了解這個出養的必要性這個 必要性評估嘛對 必要性評估 你們有相關的訓練嗎那個有開課 那個施肢夠嗎施肢應該沒有問題施肢的量能是夠的嗎 我覺得這個很重要啊那麼台灣親子共學教育促進會也有幾點聲明主張啦那我覺得其中最重要的一點就是訪視指引他應該根據風險的分層來修訂"},{"start":222.837,"end":251.357,"text":"威福部目前現行的指引並沒有依照個案的風險來做的差異所以來根據他這個來調整訪視的頻率或是協作的要求那部長您可不可以承諾或是您覺得認不認同未來高風險個案你知道高風險個案就是指譬如說出養前的站託像凱凱那初次收養的保姆或是說有特殊需求有特殊發展需求的孩子那要有更密集的多方的會商嗎"},{"start":253.463,"end":274.904,"text":"有關於風險分級就是讓他的訪視頻率不會大家都一樣要調整一下這目前有一些做法我是不是請署長說明一下簡單說明好嗎那現在已經是對於他在剛安置初期的部分他的訪視頻率會拉到比較高但你的指引還沒有改變嗎你的指引還沒有改變嗎"},{"start":276.26,"end":279.524,"text":"已經有修了然後不同的需求那我希望以後我能夠看到這個部分的報告一個月內的報告我稍微了解現在運作的一個情況"},{"start":291.8,"end":319.122,"text":"這個公私力協作本身是沒有問題的問題就是如果專業沒有到位的話你把風險是分散而不是降低我們目的是降低這個風險那受所長之助因為我們處理是最脆弱的孩子我們必須承認本來就不應該當作一般的行政業務來處理但我要強調這件事同樣不可以給第一線的社工做這個道德要求跟這個責任的轉嫁如果你沒有對他提供好的訓練跟支持也沒有給他這個"},{"start":321.184,"end":348.982,"text":"做明確的標準那在優秀之後他再努力他都可能沒有辦法做出一個穩定一致的判斷所以核心不是說社工努不努力而是你們要把這個制度設計好把專業的支持是到位的那這樣制度缺口就不會變成那個社工他本身的壓力來源你更不能讓孩子來承擔這個結果就我今天要強調的這一點那部長您剛剛提到的就是說那些相關的那個報告我也想要關心一下"},{"start":349.582,"end":369.022,"text":"因為我自己本身就是收養家庭嘛就是我們後來113年有修那個收出養的辦法還有相關的指引還有必要性的評估的那個form我們再提供給委員參考部長很多國家他收出養的這個管理這個法律都改了幾十版了就不斷的精進好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝謝謝陳超之委員發言"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:32:39.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:32:39.546000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:32:39.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:32:40.008000+08:00","text":"有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T12:32:40.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:32:40.348000+08:00","text":"有請石部長。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:32:46.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:32:46.764000+08:00","text":"陳委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:32:47.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:32:47.464000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:32:47.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:33:17.189000+08:00","text":"我今天跟你談有關收出養的問題，對一個孩子來說，他被出養大概對一生是非常重大的影響或改變，就我個人的實務經驗來說，其實收出養這個制度影響的至少有三方面，一個就是出養家庭，所謂的原生家庭，還有孩子本身當然有，但是對於收養家庭其實也是，都是一生非常長期而且不是很容易做的功課。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:33:18.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:33:25.117000+08:00","text":"部長，經過剴剴案之後，我國整個收出養制度依照現行的方式是由地方政府來負責出養的必要性評估。對。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:33:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:33:31.644000+08:00","text":"然後由民間媒合機構來負責收養家庭評估媒合，還有兒童追蹤發展等等，但是我覺得問題不是有沒有分工，而是分工之後有沒有足夠的專業能力去接住這項高度專業的工作。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:33:47.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:34:07.772000+08:00","text":"過去民間機構是專責的，但是現在地方政府是用第一線的社工來做這件事，他等於是兼辦，然後還有案件量重、個案又分散，老實說，他們經驗累積不容易，所以事實上他的整個評估標準自然會有落差。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:34:09.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:34:10.373000+08:00","text":"部長，這是我非常重視的一件事情。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:34:11.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:34:37.423000+08:00","text":"勵馨基金會其實早在去年5月就發文提醒了，無論是社會局家庭福利組的社工或是在全國各地社福中心的基層人員，他們本來的工作是聚焦在所謂的社區支持跟初級預防，在出養必要性這個理解上或許還不是很充足，所以社家署是不是可以讓我們了解目前的狀況如何？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:34:37.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:34:42.745000+08:00","text":"當我們把這個工作交給他們的時候，你們做了哪些努力？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:34:44.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:35:09.164000+08:00","text":"好，跟委員說明，現在統計一年大概差不多200案的收出養需求，我們在全國大概建置156個社福中心，所以以負荷來講，倒不如其他的，其他的案量可能更多，再來就是收出養的媒合機構，這個確實是一個重點。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:35:09.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:35:12.025000+08:00","text":"部長，不好意思，我現在談的不是那個量的問題，我剛剛很強調要專業。對。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:35:12.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:35:18.046000+08:00","text":"因為過去是專責，但是剴剴案之後，你們做了不同的一些分工。","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:35:20.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:35:36.616000+08:00","text":"對，剛剛我大概也有提到儘量把他的專業能力提升，所以也發展了收出養必要評估報告的格式，大概要評估哪一些東西，然後再辦理教育訓練的課程。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:35:36.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:35:39.798000+08:00","text":"我聽說現在有一些課程，請問社家署，有關這個課程，你的師資夠嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:35:39.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:35:39.878000+08:00","text":"課程的師資……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:35:39.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:35:48.654000+08:00","text":"我本來以為你們會針對現在要了解出養的必要性……","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:35:49.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:35:50.416000+08:00","text":"必要性評估嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:35:50.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:35:50.676000+08:00","text":"就是做必要性評估那一個……","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:35:50.676000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T12:35:51.676000+08:00","text":"就是必要性評估啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:35:50.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:35:51.157000+08:00","text":"你們有沒有相關的訓練？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:35:51.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:35:51.257000+08:00","text":"那個有開課。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:35:51.257000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T12:35:52.257000+08:00","text":"有開課？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:35:51.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:35:51.317000+08:00","text":"師資夠嗎？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:35:51.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:35:51.477000+08:00","text":"師資應該沒有問題。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:35:51.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:35:51.657000+08:00","text":"師資的量能是夠的嗎？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:35:51.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:36:44.357000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個很重要，臺灣親子共學教育促進會也有幾點聲明主張，我覺得其中最重要的一點就是訪視指引，它應該根據風險的分層來修訂，但是衛福部現行的指引並沒有依照個案的風險差異來調整訪視的頻率或是協作的要求，部長您可不可以承諾或是您覺得認不認同未來高風險個案……你知道高風險個案就是指譬如說出養前的暫托，就像剴剴，初次收養的保母或是說有特殊需求、有特殊發展需求的孩子，需要有更密集的多方會商嗎？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:36:46.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:36:52.709000+08:00","text":"有關於風險分級，就是讓他的訪視頻率不會大家都一樣……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:36:52.709000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T12:36:53.709000+08:00","text":"要調整嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:36:52.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:36:56.533000+08:00","text":"對，要調整一下，這目前有一些做法，我是不是請署長說明一下？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:36:57.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:36:58.915000+08:00","text":"簡單說明好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:36:58.915000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T12:36:59.915000+08:00","text":"因為時間有限。","quality":0},{"speaker":"周署長道君","start":"2026-04-23T12:36:59.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:37:04.721000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，現在對於安置初期的部分，他的訪視時期會拉到比較高。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:37:05.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:37:06.983000+08:00","text":"但你的指引還沒有改變啊！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"周署長道君","start":"2026-04-23T12:37:09.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:37:09.761000+08:00","text":"已經有修了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:37:09.761000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T12:37:10.761000+08:00","text":"已經有修了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"周署長道君","start":"2026-04-23T12:37:10.761000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T12:37:11.761000+08:00","text":"對，已經有修了，在剴剴案之後已經修正了。","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:37:10.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:37:12.004000+08:00","text":"就是一定要按照不同的需求，我希望以後能夠看到這個部分的報告，一個月內提報告好不好？","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:37:12.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:37:12.524000+08:00","text":"我想稍微了解現在運作的情況。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:37:12.524000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T12:37:24.800000+08:00","text":"好，我們會把這個指引提供給委員參考。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:37:24.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:37:34.228000+08:00","text":"部長，公私協作本身是沒有問題的，問題在於專業如果沒有到位的話，你是把風險分散，而不是降低，但我們的目的是降低風險。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:37:35.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:38:14.737000+08:00","text":"我們必須承認我們處理的是最脆弱的孩子，本來就不應該當作一般的行政業務來處理，但我要強調這件事同樣不可以給第一線的社工做道德要求及責任轉嫁，如果你沒有對他提供好的訓練跟支持，也沒有給他明確的標準，即使他再優秀、再努力，他都可能沒有辦法做出穩定而一致的判斷，所以核心並不是社工努不努力，而是你們要把這個制度設計好，讓專業的支持是到位的，這樣制度缺口就不會變成社工本身的壓力來源，更不能讓孩子來承擔結果啊！","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:38:15.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:38:17.539000+08:00","text":"我今天要強調的是這一點。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:38:17.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:38:21.962000+08:00","text":"部長，您剛剛提到的那些相關報告，我也想要關心一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:38:21.962000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T12:38:22.962000+08:00","text":"好，我們再提供給委員參考。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:38:22.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:38:24.945000+08:00","text":"因為我本身就是收養家庭，我要……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-04-23T12:38:25.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:38:35.595000+08:00","text":"我們在113年有修正收出養的辦法及相關指引，還有必要性評估的form，我們再提供給委員參考。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:38:35.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:38:41.121000+08:00","text":"部長，很多國家收出養管理的法律都改了幾十版了，就不斷的精進。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-04-23T12:38:41.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:38:41.842000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長、謝謝主席。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T12:38:41.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-23T12:38:42.002000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳昭姿委員發言。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T12:38:42.502000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T12:38:47.359143+08:00","text":"林倩綺委員、林倩綺委員，林倩綺委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T12:38:47.659143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T12:38:52.516286+08:00","text":"鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T12:38:52.816286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T12:38:57.673429+08:00","text":"蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-23T12:38:57.973429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-23T12:39:00.830571+08:00","text":"接著請張雅琳委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}