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財政委員會於8月27日星期三召開會議處理中央政府丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案之審查事宜同日完成審查拟據審查報告送院會8月28日星期四召開會議處理114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案之審查事宜同日完成審查拟據審查報告送院會"},{"start":2042.205,"end":2068.363,"text":"三 八月二十八日星期四由院長先行協商處理中央政府丹納斯颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案並視委員會審查完略一百一十四年度中央政府總預算追加預算案後接續進行協商四 八月二十七日星期三下午進行因應"},{"start":2069.784,"end":2080.67,"text":"國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例第三條 第六條及第九條條文修正草案之協商"},{"start":2081.294,"end":2109.333,"text":"五 上開預算案及特別條例修正案均不受黨團協商期一個月之限制均列入8月29日星期五院會討論事項處理當日會議討論事項僅列上開三案及貨物稅條例第十二條之五條文修正草案案並不進行國事論壇不處理臨時提案六"},{"start":2110.748,"end":2130.897,"text":"為立下會期省紀長人事同意權審查之進行各黨團如有關於省紀長被提名人之書面問題請於9月5日星期五中午12時前送至議事處會診並由本院函送提名機關轉至被提名人"},{"start":2132.379,"end":2148.87,"text":"報告委員會現在進行行政院院長提出台美關稅談判之進程翻增原則及台灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估專案專案報告並備詢請行政院卓院長報告"},{"start":2165.72,"end":2194.942,"text":"韓院長 江副院長各位委員先進今日應大院安排就台美關係談判的進程方針原則以及台灣產業可能遭受的衝擊影響評估進行專案報告以下簡就以上的議題簡要的來向大院委員說明清楚"},{"start":2196.465,"end":2215.2,"text":"就進程而言讓大家都清楚從8月7號美國全球實施關稅的新的稅率就已經上路而台美雙方從4月開始經過4個多月的各種的磋商跟談判"},{"start":2216.721,"end":2228.289,"text":"我們將原有在既有稅率加上32%的對等關稅目前是暫時性的調整為既有稅率加20%的暫時性的對等稅率"},{"start":2232.27,"end":2260.836,"text":"那麼既有關稅加上若干百分比的稅率各國皆有不同但是這種算法是目前多數國家共通使用的原則也是美國在談判過程當中的一項原則我們也是在這樣的原則當中目前就是處於這種暫時性的稅率既有稅率加20%未來我們還要持續的有三個爭取第一個爭取"},{"start":2262.085,"end":2285.071,"text":"是爭取更合理對我有利的稅率第二個爭取是爭取我們跟232的條款能夠也有合理的協商過程跟結果第三個爭取當然是要爭取以不叠加的方式來完成整個談判的結果這是我們的三個爭取"},{"start":2287.179,"end":2302.024,"text":"就產業的衝擊方面我簡單的描述據2024年的統計美國從台灣進口部分分別在工業上我們進口的產值是1128.6億元農業是8.9億元那麼平均的稅率是3.3%"},{"start":2313.417,"end":2324.003,"text":"其中工業的產品稅率平均3.1%而且多數的稅率是在5%以下而其所有當中更有82.5%是零關稅"},{"start":2328.038,"end":2350.057,"text":"那麼至於農業的產品平均稅率是5%多數稅率也在10%以下而且有43.4%的關稅是零關稅因此簡單說工業平均3.1%農業平均5%整個加起來平均是工農的產品3.3%的平均稅率"},{"start":2354.787,"end":2381.54,"text":"另外在232的這項特別法案當中目前排除了若干品項的一個適用比如鋼鐵 汽車零組件藥品 半導體等等這個台美雙方會持續就未來的進展進行一些談判當然也不排除可能會新增其他的品項7月31號當美方宣布對台灣的對等關稅稅率從原來的32%"},{"start":2385.188,"end":2406.499,"text":"落到20%的時候我們就委託了智庫就4月初的那一次的衝擊評估跟推估我們再重新的加以核算我們知道我們得出的結果是我們在出口 在產值 在GDP以及對就業的影響7月底的這一次"},{"start":2409.308,"end":2427.794,"text":"20%跟4月3號的32%我們已經衝擊可以減緩約略五成但是我們絲毫不敢大意我們還是會持續做各個產業做全面性的瞭解通盤性的檢討並且要實出有力的支持"},{"start":2428.991,"end":2438.017,"text":"那我們在各方面的產品當中比如說影響到比較大的一些產品產業到底是哪些比方說手工具"},{"start":2439.229,"end":2466.898,"text":"工具機 水五金 重電以及塑膠製品等等這是工業的部分在農業當然是大家最近總統有去看的包括蝴蝶蘭 毛豆 鬼頭刀這個漁產等等這個我們都已經跟個別的產業進行一些瞭解我們實際知道他們的需求我們正開始從以緩計及以及我們未來的特別預算當中要予以支持"},{"start":2467.935,"end":2480.013,"text":"所以這些部分我們考慮到我們這些產業對蘇美的稅率負擔之外我們另外考量的是什麼是跟我們競爭對手在稅率上的高低"},{"start":2481.027,"end":2496.16,"text":"所以我們一定要持續的來跟美方做這方面的爭取所以這些產業的競爭力絕非取單一的因素而是多項的影響所以這個部分我們會積極的透過談判代表團繼續來爭取"},{"start":2498.342,"end":2514.773,"text":"同時我們為了穩定國內的產業當中最重要的是讓我們的勞工能夠安心所以勞動部從4月份開始也密集地訪視各個工商團體並且就他們可能受關稅影響來進行關懷訪視也掌握實際的影響情形根據統計"},{"start":2521.638,"end":2548.672,"text":"跟去年同期相比所謂的減班休息因為景氣影響的目前到8月中因為景氣影響的雖然是有191家跟3934人但其中再分析是受到關稅影響的那是有73家跟2388人"},{"start":2553.022,"end":2580.196,"text":"無論家數多寡 無論人數多少政府一定是一律的 全面的要就安定就業這個項目上面來做通盤的考量所以我們在產業的支持上面我們行政院在4月24號已經通過了強化韌性特別條例這個草案大院也在審議通過之後8月1號公佈實施"},{"start":2582.057,"end":2604.214,"text":"其中對於產業的支持編定了930億其中就分別有工業部門跟農業部門工業部門我們有金融支持降低行政企業行政的成本提升產業競爭力開拓多元市場以及租稅優惠在農業部分我們有從生產儲運產銷到外銷所提出的"},{"start":2609.52,"end":2638.002,"text":"也有金融支持提升產業競爭力跟開拓多元市場另外對於勞工的部分我們特別就安定就業的協助措施跟穩定促進就業強化雇用安定措施等等有協助初次來尋職的青年強化他求職的準備以及對創業協助跟整合型就業服務等等這就是針對勞工因應的衝擊的一些支持"},{"start":2639.062,"end":2667.112,"text":"那隨著美國訂定20%的鑽石性關稅之後8月7號開始使用所以我們在特別預算還未經大院來審議條例我們提出的修正修正案經過大院審議通過之後行政院會提出特別預算那這個很希望這個程序我們儘快來合作來完成但在這個之前行政院已經用了移緩季節的方式"},{"start":2668.232,"end":2694.363,"text":"先把現在各部會裡面能夠挪移出來的產業有實際受到損害的我們用移緩積極的方式給予產業必要的支持因此真正的期待8月14號行政院院會通過了強化任性條例的修正草案那後續我們也預留了200億的這個預算額度當有需要的時候我們再來啟用否則這個5900"},{"start":2697.204,"end":2724.696,"text":"70億的特別預算我們將來在5700億的第一期當中我們充分來使用當有需要的再啟動這些預留的200億的預算這個部分再請大院能夠全力的支持這是對產業的支持方面至於談判的方針跟原則我要再次特別感謝由鄭麗君副院長所領隊加上我們楊珍妮政委還有所有相關的各個部會經濟部"},{"start":2727.064,"end":2746.342,"text":"農業部 勞動部 交通部 國安會等等他們歷經了四次的實體的面對面的談判還有很多很多次的視訊的會議那目前這些會議還在持續進行當中近期間之前還在進行當中"},{"start":2747.666,"end":2769.155,"text":"雖然我們還沒有達到最後的協議但是就技術性的磋商比方說對等關稅非關稅貿易障礙貿易便捷化以及供應鏈的韌性跟經濟安全這幾項的技術性的磋商已經大致完成"},{"start":2769.835,"end":2784.605,"text":"我們還沒有完成的是最後達成協議之前的總結會議總結會議完成那就是踏出了很快的第一步那這個部分我們還在努力那大家會問為什麼我們的時間速度會慢下來"},{"start":2785.586,"end":2808.005,"text":"因為第一個有很多的因素第一個是我們的總結會議還沒有完成第二個是我們是美國的第六大的貿易的逆差國所以我們過去對他的逆差2024年的逆差達到739億美金所以他必須在這個當中要尋求一個平衡點那我們也提出我方的立場"},{"start":2808.846,"end":2823.121,"text":"美方也提出美方的要求正在做這樣各項的協商那我們對美方美方對我們的逆差的739億當中有九成都來自半導體自動性產業以及電子零組件所以"},{"start":2824.664,"end":2852.939,"text":"會隨著還在談判的這個232特別條款當中還要進行若干的調查這個都有影響所以我們要完成總決心會議因為美方跟我的逆差大而且這個產品都跟232相關所以目前還在積極的會商當中但是我們採取最積極而且希望能夠達到國家最有利的方式來談判所以談判代表談判的方針最終四項就是維護國家利益"},{"start":2854.18,"end":2868.911,"text":"維護產業利益維護國民健康跟維護我們國家的糧食安全這四項原則是總統在歷史談話當中一而再再而三的交代四項原則是當作我們談判的最高標準這也是我們的核心原則"},{"start":2870.032,"end":2897.269,"text":"台美是一個供應鏈緊密的合作夥伴所以雙方對於經濟安全部分也持續的來互相的加強其中有高度共識的特別就是我們的違規轉運的部分我們有共同的理念要打擊起產地所以無論是高科技貨品出口的管制或是投資安全的經濟做法都是未來雙方強化產業合作的一個基礎我認為"},{"start":2899.45,"end":2927.015,"text":"打擊息產地也是維持我國製造業優勢擴大我們國際布局跟結合與美國跟世界先進國家研發製造市場人才的一個好的方式跟必要正確的途徑因此我們用這樣的方式用提高經濟安全的各項合作來打造台美高科技戰略夥伴關係這也是目前我們談判中的一個精神"},{"start":2928.871,"end":2951.972,"text":"最後我要提到無論是商業談判無論是朝野協商無論是國際談判它都有一個共通數商業談判需要高明的技巧朝野協商需要有取有捨有進有退國際談判那更要堅持國家的立場跟利益"},{"start":2952.95,"end":2976.429,"text":"因此國際的談判是難上加難所以我要特別感謝我們談判團隊不過這幾項都有一個共通點就是什麼時候才是最後條件的拿出就要到談判的最終在這個之前尤其是國際談判它的慣例是談判的細節還沒有達成"},{"start":2978.124,"end":2997.686,"text":"協議還沒有達成通常是不會完整來對外說明的因為達成協議之後我們一定會向國人也向社會向國會來說說明達成協議之後我們也一定依照我們的條約締結法等等要把這些"},{"start":2998.897,"end":3013.927,"text":"內容送交國會來審議所以國會保留是一個不可避免的法定程序也請大院能夠支持談判的整個內容同時國際談判通常一件談判"},{"start":3015.492,"end":3034.452,"text":"短則數月長則兩三年才能完成而這次美方的談判是在四個月當中要跟世界一兩百個國家其中的重要幾個它的貿易逆差國進行這種深度的談判在時間 程序以及進行的方式上都非常非常的艱難"},{"start":3035.333,"end":3059.525,"text":"我也感謝國人同胞跟大院的各位先進委員過去四個多月以來雖然關心雖然也有可能有所焦慮但我們始終相信我們談判代表在國家利益產業利益以及國人健康糧食健康安全上能夠謹守國家的立場嚴守國家的利益這一點我再一次代表談判團隊向國人表示最大的感謝"},{"start":3060.512,"end":3075.581,"text":"未來我們在完成談判代表完成整個協商之後會送請大院來就談判的內容進行國會保留的審議跟同意所以這個時候也再次要求也拜託各位我們也能夠依照"},{"start":3077.182,"end":3091.39,"text":"國際談判慣例的難度一方面給予我們談判代表信心一方面也為了解整個政府對談判過程當中及以後我們對產業支持方面所提出的各項政策甚至我們一起"},{"start":3092.775,"end":3117.655,"text":"來協助各個產業快速地適應國際官貿的新秩序我們一起來加強對國內產業的各項支持我們一起來提高未來國家在高科技各項方面的國際的競爭力我們一起讓台灣成為一個還是高科技關鍵地位關鍵技術領先的國家因此"},{"start":3118.596,"end":3137.783,"text":"特別也再一次想請求我們因應國際形勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例的修正案請大院緊速的來審議行政院會依據這個修正案的內容提出完整的特別預算再請大院通過我們就能用最快的速度讓"},{"start":3139.804,"end":3154.88,"text":"國內的產業得到支持讓產業能夠再度的走向國際為台灣未來的經濟打出國際的新的一條通路維持國家的競爭力以上報告請大家指教 謝謝好 謝謝左院長的報告"},{"start":3158.337,"end":3186.648,"text":"現在進行委員質詢每位委員巡大時間不超過15分鐘輪到質詢委員如果不在場視為棄權首先請吳委員私謠質詢謝謝主席有請卓院長也請鄭副院長一起"},{"start":3187.667,"end":3215.918,"text":"請卓院長 鄭副院長備詢吳委員好所有的團隊還有我們的談判代表大家都辛苦了卓院長您知道嗎今天是您這個會期第幾天來到立法院你有算過嗎"},{"start":3217.438,"end":3235.463,"text":"我是沒有算過我替您算過了每次來都很快樂好 第21天我喜歡你的正能量您是第21天單一會期來到立法院備詢這是前所未有代表行政團隊面對國會監督絕不逃避這是我們的責任就以專案報告"},{"start":3236.946,"end":3260.146,"text":"加上明天後天這個會期是七次專案報告也是史上新高這也代表國會關切的議題行政部門也絕對來直球對決而今天更是我們有史以來行政院的副院長第一次站上質詢台備詢台因為您要為我們的談判來對國人做更多的說明"},{"start":3261.109,"end":3277.436,"text":"那首先 真的這是最辛苦的內閣團隊卓院長也是史上最辛苦的行政院長 您同意大家都辛苦了那我自己也常常自嘲啊我是民進黨團有史以來最苦命的阿信幹事長"},{"start":3279.708,"end":3293.38,"text":"這段時間我們面臨了挫敗所以說內閣快速的要進行改組而我也認為行政立法一體立法院黨團也不可自外於這一次我們重整隊形"},{"start":3294.221,"end":3317.794,"text":"的這一個階段跟這一個陣容當中所以說我個人認為我也呼籲當行政部門來進行改組要反守為攻要主導議題同樣的立法院黨團我們也在重整隊形要擴大參與我們共同的目標就是一樣的"},{"start":3319.376,"end":3331.284,"text":"對內要強化整合在內閣是強化各部會的整合在立院黨團是強化五一戰隊之間意見的包容跟討論但是我們一致的對外"},{"start":3332.892,"end":3353.07,"text":"對在野黨 我們要增進溝通對外 面對中國 面對世界變局我們都要勇敢前進首先 我先給你們莫大的期許因為您也多次的請辭受到總統要求您繼續承擔的慰留"},{"start":3353.951,"end":3370.239,"text":"那這也是我對五一戰隊的自我鞭策我們首先先用這樣的正能量跟彼此的鼓舞來開啟今天的質詢那我上面下了一個標喔Never let a good crisis go to waste"},{"start":3370.959,"end":3388.608,"text":"是我在4月11號那時候也針對關稅的談判我做的質詢的題目我今天依舊沿用因為它依舊是重要的前提面對關稅的談判我們要化險為夷佈局未來我們要轉為維安"},{"start":3390.729,"end":3409.07,"text":"如果看在失敗主義者的眼中這一次美國開啟的全球關稅大作戰恐怕會是大災難但是如果看在做好準備的人的身上我們不當犧牲者我們要當獲利者在國際的"},{"start":3410.632,"end":3437.86,"text":"全新經貿的新秩序當中台灣要能夠搶得先機創造無可取代的地位首先這是我看待這一次國際談判非常重要的一個目標不是指因應眼前的談判的輸贏更是對準長城國家經貿發展的願景副院長您都同意您也是抱持這樣子的態度在進行談判的過程是不是"},{"start":3438.722,"end":3458.685,"text":"是謝謝委員我想首先感謝大院讓我個人今日能夠除了陪同院長也能夠上台來備詢來向大院來說明談判的情形那如剛剛卓院長所報告的目前我國取得談判的是一個階段性的結果"},{"start":3459.124,"end":3476.781,"text":"也就是原稅率加上對等關稅20%那談判團隊還在持續努力當中那我回國之後我們8月7號8月8號二度跟美方持續的視訊那就在上週五8月22號我們在進行第三次的視訊"},{"start":3477.822,"end":3491.314,"text":"所以這也表示台美雙方還在持續的談判當中那我們後續談判的目標如院長所宣示的我們要爭取更好更合理的對等關稅希望把20%的對等關稅再往下降"},{"start":3494.316,"end":3513.593,"text":"並且也要爭取不疊加原來的MFN原有的稅率另外因為我們的出口結構裡面超過七成是半導體及ICT產品美方正在232調查當中所以美方也希望美雙方需求232一併協商需要多一點時間討論所以我們一併爭取232關稅後續可能的優惠方案"},{"start":3521.74,"end":3544.254,"text":"這是我們後續談判的三大目標我們一定全力以赴好 謝謝副院長的說明所以您的談判 您領導的團隊就如同賴總統一再的定謀的不只是因應眼前的關稅談判長城的國際經貿是新秩序台灣無可取代的地位我們要搶得先機 下一頁"},{"start":3545.114,"end":3562.744,"text":"我回顧這145天以來當川普對全球開了這一槍其實no one is outsider180多個國家同受衝擊當時的在野黨一直說這是國難 下一頁但事實證明"},{"start":3564.265,"end":3582.123,"text":"這是全球都在承受衝擊而什麼是國難如果台灣的社會經貿的實力沒有底氣如果台灣的政府沒有充足的準備如果台灣的在野勢力並不忠誠恐怕才是真正的國難"},{"start":3583.649,"end":3601.287,"text":"但是可操之在我的部分我們全力以赴不可操之在我的部分我們強化溝通下一頁這145天以來我當時4月11號也是第一位朝野立委站上質詢台的立委代表"},{"start":3602.188,"end":3626.197,"text":"我感同身受我們談判團隊內外交迫先講在台灣的內部我們充斥著非常多在野勢力的唱衰我們承受著非常多不明就裡的謠言我們更面對著在野黨不斷地惡意地貼上黑箱的標籤我們來講唱衰好了"},{"start":3628.078,"end":3652.896,"text":"大家還記得四月份嗎當川普公布了這個關稅的這個衝擊的時候在野黨第一時間講的是什麼他們要罷免川普對美國報復要申請釋憲要停止一切對美國的投資更集中火力要求政府要強化開放對中國市場的投資"},{"start":3654.42,"end":3674.775,"text":"如果當時聽從藍白立委的意見我看適用中國不管從145%的對等關稅或是現在55%的對等關稅如果聽從藍白擁抱中國市場的老路這才是國難這才是災難就是4月份下一頁"},{"start":3675.535,"end":3699.861,"text":"我們來看看七八月份當暫時性關稅開始揭露了在野黨的委員們這些政治領袖們又開始說32%是嚴重的挫敗暫時性的關稅是一場騙局甚至民眾黨一再的操作這是黑箱資訊不公開但是事實證明下一頁"},{"start":3701.721,"end":3719.016,"text":"造謠謠言並不成立上週末的這個新聞報導居然能夠很鉅細靡遺的來說明現在談判的進程台灣將取消農產品汽車藥品的關稅全開放半導體ICT對美國投資2500億採購能源國防農產品高達3000億請問你們已經明確的澄清這是謠言嗎對不對副院長"},{"start":3730.175,"end":3746.832,"text":"是 我們在當天我們行政院經貿辦公室以及相關部會都有對社會來說明有關媒體所述的相關數字跟項目其實跟我們談判情形有所出入而且最重要是未經向經貿辦以及部會來查證"},{"start":3749.154,"end":3767.364,"text":"那我們也速度跟國人來說明現在談判還在持續進行當中一旦台灣和美方達成協議我們的協議一定會送國會審議也會向社會充分的說明所以這個謠言被打臉了下一個謠言呢美國要求台積電入股"},{"start":3768.612,"end":3796.471,"text":"郝麗嘉在魏哲嘉董事長親自出面證實美國政府並沒有也不會要求入股台積電不要擔心台積電變美積電當然我知道我們謹守分際我們不替台積電民間的企業來發言但是就以魏哲嘉董事長的發言再一次打臉了這些惡意操作的謠言所以講完唱衰講完謠言我們來講講黑箱喔"},{"start":3797.877,"end":3822.268,"text":"事實上我同意執政團隊必須竭盡一切的所能把所有的資訊一講再講多講都沒有關係當時我們被在野黨貼上談判黑箱是說我們並沒有對外說明關稅計算是疊加的我認為我們對社會的說明可以再加強但是我要對於在野黨"},{"start":3823.939,"end":3852.818,"text":"後代風向提出我很大的挑戰為什麼呢除了4月4號行政院團隊的關稅因應記者會上已經清楚說明就是疊加之外卓院長特別慎重4月7號邀請了朝野各個黨團的黨鞭進行政院再次說明我們的所有因應作為對不對也是在那場會議上您提出我們希望爭取在野委員來"},{"start":3854.019,"end":3882.566,"text":"合作推動我們的任性條例以及特別預算其實在4月7號當我們就在行政院的那個會議室裡頭我們的副院長也好院長也好楊珍妮代表也好再一次說明關稅的計算方式疊加就再一次的說明如果連在野黨的委員親自在場親自聆聽對外他還是要說這是黑箱我萬萬不可接受"},{"start":3883.854,"end":3912.149,"text":"所以我們看看台金院的張院長說的關稅疊加這個產業界跟學術界早就知道但我們都同意對社會擴大說明也包括中金院的連銘賢院長也說了關稅疊加這是原則台灣當然適用原則而不是適用例外所以我在這裡要說下一頁我們不只沒有黑箱我們做到史上前所未有的透明公開甚至是全球警戒"},{"start":3913.604,"end":3939.824,"text":"8月7號我們主動向國會揭露了關稅談判的保密協議院長這是全球警見吧世界各國副院長沒有任何一個國家國會要求國家出示這個保密協議我們主動揭露透明向國會說明感謝大院用機密會議的方式所以說這是全球警見的透明公開連保密協議都公開了"},{"start":3940.604,"end":3958.695,"text":"8月11號我們的專屬線上的網站上線了第一時間及時對於國會跟產業來揭露我們所有的政策因應以及今天8月25號即便談判中我們負責任向國會報告目前可以說明的部分而最終如果談判結束"},{"start":3959.795,"end":3979.629,"text":"國會保留我們一切資訊都會向國會公開而且要通過國會的審查跟監督所以這是史上沒有的透明公開更是全球沒有人做到的台灣做到了我請在野黨不要再用黑箱這種惡質的標籤貼在我們辛苦的談判團隊的身上下一頁"},{"start":3980.51,"end":4004.668,"text":"回到談判本身有很多不可操之在我的部分當然這是川普為了美國利益的優先美國的再工業化美國的解決他的貿易逆差當然也要解決他對中戰略的競爭下一頁而可操之在我的部分就是台灣的ICT產業全球稱霸的地位我們能夠爭取讓談判的戰線延長"},{"start":4007.95,"end":4036.245,"text":"所以說談得好跟談得快我們選擇談得好只要能夠繼續談就是一個好事代表我們能夠持續爭取這也是我執政黨團支持我們談判團隊不要設定所謂快談快好這種目標我們的目標是談得好讓全國產業都受惠但是國會不要成為談判的不利因素"},{"start":4037.445,"end":4057.806,"text":"剛剛院長所說的為了全球的投資安全為了全球的公平貿易為了全球打擊洗產地川普這一次是重中之重要不要再一次呼籲在野黨的委員應當撤回離島建設條例這種洗產地的條例因為這會造成我們談判的不利因素來院長"},{"start":4060.005,"end":4081.418,"text":"針對這個條例剛剛委員所說的行政院完全支持委員剛剛所說的我認為我們現在要展現國內團結一致就是我們對於這樣息產地違規轉運的房子我們是有能力有責任做好的這個雖然不直接對談判有利但展現一個保護我國產業也讓世界覺得這個區域的經濟安全我們是有責任的"},{"start":4081.658,"end":4107.819,"text":"所以國會切莫不只沒幫忙還幫到忙我再次呼籲離島建設條例不要強硬的來推動下一頁下一頁下一頁我後面還20頁沒辦法講來回到前一頁我用這個來做結論當全球都在擴大對美投資台灣就應當勇敢迎向國際經貿的新秩序抗拒不如早去"},{"start":4116.448,"end":4123.214,"text":"我支持你們用一個更長程的經貿共同的面向跟目標來看待對日制的關稅的談判"},{"start":4125.282,"end":4140.651,"text":"外界扭曲歪斗成為我們捧的大錢去揍美國我們要向社會呈現我們不是白白的捧錢去投資美國我們要做的是跟美國跟世界的各國一起來賺大錢"},{"start":4161.797,"end":4162.177,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員"},{"start":4171.516,"end":4185.781,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員 我們時間到了謝謝吳委員 謝謝左院長 曾副院長下一位 傅坤祺委員 徐宇貞委員 林倩祺委員聯合質詢 時間45分鐘"},{"start":4222.872,"end":4251.277,"text":"主席請卓院長請卓院長備詢部委員 學委員 林委員 三位委員好卓院長好經過了整整將近一年的時間整個國家空轉"},{"start":4253.203,"end":4281.523,"text":"不斷地衝刺從總統 院長 部會首長執政者的國會議員到執政者的所有的宣傳工具一連當中不斷地攻擊在野黨所謂中共同路人 所謂共匪立委讓台灣不斷地撕裂 撕裂再撕裂"},{"start":4282.52,"end":4311.665,"text":"要弱化在野監督的力量在昨天在前天兩天前人民已經做出了一個完整的決定左院長對於報載所有媒體報導去年1月13號總統大選結束以後1月14號賴總統跟您還有柯總召決定一年後"},{"start":4312.421,"end":4333.611,"text":"要推動大罷免希望能夠一黨專政然後現在終於所有的事情人民已經很清楚的告訴執政者並沒有這樣的事情哪一件事情沒有這樣的事1月13號 1月14號之後"},{"start":4336.885,"end":4362.226,"text":"總統或是跟任何人要推動大罷免這件事情並沒有這樣的事情但是當時媒體報宅的時候你們並沒有否認啊當時說的是對立法會跟兩院互動關係當時就應該要像現在告訴全國國人沒有這件事嘛對不對那當時為什麼不來否認好沒有關係現在講也可以"},{"start":4363.936,"end":4391.644,"text":"但是對於整個國家的空轉包括不斷的誣陷攻擊 再也立委現在人民已經做出了決定不管是有民進黨在台灣的獨裁專政亦或者是民進黨的國家能源政策人民已經給出了很清楚的答案對於內閣是不是要總辭"},{"start":4393.14,"end":4410.118,"text":"所以你講什麼看法總統已經說過7月26號之後我已經數次跟總統談論到這樣的話題我認為不是因為罷免不罷免的問題而是整個在政策推動上"},{"start":4411.813,"end":4438.241,"text":"過去那段時間的不順暢跟未來有沒有辦法順暢的推動這才是行政院該檢討的行政院不只是檢討過去那一段是未來我們要做什麼責任政治在哪裡責任政治在哪裡我希望總統您剛剛所說過去政策推動不順利政策推動不順利包括政策是否適當"},{"start":4440.267,"end":4468.268,"text":"第二個是否有完整的溝通第三個是否獨裁專段這三件事情你認為你做到了嗎第一個沒有獨裁專段第二個溝通必須加強第三個政策推動不順利是因為有些政策 行政院因為違憲之前我們有示愛難行再也黨"},{"start":4469.784,"end":4495.689,"text":"什麼時候溝通過了我們曾經到行政院裡面來談過話幾次至少有兩次以上所以卓院長在這一年多當中跟在野黨的溝通是兩次行政院透過執政黨團跟在野黨團的溝通那是每天都在進行的過去一年我們只衝刺看到"},{"start":4496.753,"end":4525.086,"text":"執政黨團不斷的造謠 不斷的申飛有什麼時候來溝通每個黨團都很努力 不斷的攻擊不斷的對在野立委的監督不斷用各種不堪入耳的方式的攻擊就光講今天的專案報告就好了4月2號發生美國川普總統對全世界"},{"start":4526.072,"end":4552.573,"text":"無差別的要求加碼關稅 對全世界的經濟衝擊國民黨團立刻要求 沈院長要到院報告到今天幾個月了 四個月 五個月執政黨團還在這裡護航 您來這裡報告多少次"},{"start":4553.493,"end":4582.257,"text":"我們當時就希望你來說清楚講明白我們得到的答案是什麼執政黨民進黨團堅決反對我們要再一次的表達不管心不甘情不願也好主動跟國人說明也好卓院長本來就應該在第一時間到國會來跟國人做一個報告即便是有很多內容是不能透露的"},{"start":4583.066,"end":4611.884,"text":"我們都可以尊重那要通過溝通大家了解以後相忍為國而不是在發生這麼大的事情以後五個月後才來報告所以 卓院長您對這一次全國國人民意就誠如賴總統所說更大的民意最新的民意已經出來了卓院長"},{"start":4614.124,"end":4618.921,"text":"內閣要不要總辭內閣的重要人士會做"},{"start":4620.407,"end":4648.431,"text":"主要人事的一些調整我跟總統提出過必須負起政治責任總統認為在這個時候局勢要穩定下來很多已經在推動的事情以及明年總預算的編列都要同時進行其實我認為在8月23總預算也已經編列完成了全國性的投票秩序良好那應該是一個時間但總統還是認為持續把工作做下去在總統的整個治國的理念之下他認為是最好"},{"start":4649.051,"end":4677.81,"text":"那麼我在這個原則底下我們就展開主要人事的調整第一個這一年多的執政以及國會以及國家以及台灣整體的內耗空轉已經非常的清楚人民你做了這樣的一個決定卓院長本席不是針對您這是一個民主國家最基本的風骨"},{"start":4680.236,"end":4695.594,"text":"在禮拜六晚上 卓院長就必須公開開記者會來表示內閣總詞這是最基本的至於總統要不要留 要不要公開留什麼理由來留 我們都尊重"},{"start":4696.909,"end":4723.844,"text":"但是你最基本的表態必須讓全國國人看見這不是表態的問題我已經向總統提出了這不是表態不表態這是真實認為責任正是國家不是您跟賴總統兩個人的國家是全民的你的態度必須要出來我們政治的考量跟政治的互動這是一種選擇世界所有媒體的報導跟我們最"},{"start":4725.261,"end":4752.231,"text":"寧靜的關係也最深厚的日本獨賣新聞對於企圖罷免在野黨台灣人民否決 再來東洋經濟 台灣政治今天一陷入嚴重的兩極化這是誰造成的沒有溝通 從來不溝通 霸道"},{"start":4753.971,"end":4783.119,"text":"這是執政者的標章再來學者日本小立委員表示賴清德也失去日本媒體的信任從讀賣到朝日都不樂見罷免對台灣不樂觀好 再來美國外交政策期刊呼籲川普"},{"start":4783.868,"end":4813.098,"text":"要約束台灣再來BBC針對執政黨說所謂在野立委是親中的大罷免如何撕裂了台灣再來王博台灣選民否決這次的大罷免卓院長"},{"start":4816.345,"end":4833.938,"text":"北溪講過很多次在這裡再一次的呼籲您身為國家的葛魁一年多來有多少的衝突但是你只有兩次兩次的溝通"},{"start":4837.861,"end":4862.075,"text":"不要為難國會議長禮拜六禮拜六本席看到賴總統對全國人民以及媒體的發問跟回答本席非常的意外當民進黨立法院黨團"},{"start":4863.59,"end":4885.635,"text":"再三的要求韓國瑜韓院長議事要中立不得介入任何的黨務賴總統竟然說要請卓院長跟韓院長溝通不要又把責任推到韓院長身上來報告委員 我跟韓院長溝通不是黨務啊是兩院互動模式是必須"},{"start":4887.332,"end":4915.181,"text":"必須讓各個政黨各個黨團包括貴黨黨團在內有很多人都有不同對您的施政很多人都有不同的意見我虛心接受不是你接不接受的問題你要去溝通的問題我們全面改進但是我有一句話今天我們在這裡對話應該是針對今天的主題如果是韓院長在的話大概會制止你這樣的發言希望要盡快的來溝通"},{"start":4916.854,"end":4936.061,"text":"如果韓院長再會制止你今天的發言為什麼不針對今天的主題啊這都是整個國家的互動最關鍵的一環卓院長啊 不要再閃避問題我沒有聽到任何問題今天的主題"},{"start":4938.238,"end":4964.236,"text":"剛剛講的都是台灣現在發生最嚴重的問題我們都了解 怎麼不是問題呢各位怎麼可以經過民意 用婆鳥心態 嬰兒盜鈴呢經過民意我們都充分了解我們也面對民意的改變了解了你的做法是什麼嘛所以本席剛剛在這裡苦口婆心請卓院長不要再把責任推到國會議長身上"},{"start":4965.612,"end":4991.146,"text":"你們對各黨的溝通是什麼賴總統到現在為止既沒有跟國民黨主席民眾黨主席坐下來談行政院長也沒有針對每一件國家重大的事情跟在野黨保持暢旺的溝通本席希望如果正如你所說"},{"start":4993.72,"end":5021.64,"text":"蔡總統堅持要留任 左院長我們尊重但未來的溝通請拿出誠意用常態性的溝通對每一件事情能夠有一個清楚 完整讓在野黨能夠了解大家可以共體時艱但是我們不能瞎子摸象內容完全不了解我們要怎麼樣來支持"},{"start":5022.998,"end":5049.738,"text":"要更何況要怎麼樣來背書我希望卓榮泰卓院長希望你改變過去一年多的戰鬥模式現在必須真正成為中華民國的行政院長而不是民進黨的行政院長我們曾經說過要做四項調整調整國家財政體質調整施政的先後順序調整兩院互動以及調整內閣人事我們逐步展開"},{"start":5051.547,"end":5078.939,"text":"本黨團拭目以待今天不是個人的施政總諮詢今天是專案報告我們三位包括徐議貞委員林倩琦委員都是代表國民黨團來就教於卓榮泰卓院長好我們看一下這個"},{"start":5083.478,"end":5107.347,"text":"昨天的聯合報跟中國時報 報頭我們就不再提這個事情本期現在要請教一下現在對美關稅 地板是20%還要加上WTO相關的這些稅率"},{"start":5109.434,"end":5136.965,"text":"再加上台幣升值大幅升值對外銷產業的重創基本上來說這個就是莫衷一事在一黨完全看不懂執政者今天的談判如此的失敗日本 韓國 台灣最大的競爭者都是15%的上限"},{"start":5137.927,"end":5156.203,"text":"天花板因為他們已經達成協議我們20%是地板我們還在努力爭取更合理的稅率同一個時間從4月2號開始各國開始跟美國溝通我們並不是在不是在同一個起跑點上大家都在同一個時間面對這個問題如果日本韓國已經達成協議"},{"start":5162.233,"end":5177.118,"text":"台灣還沒有達成協議這個基本上就已經失職我剛剛已經在原因說過就已經失職因為新版關稅已經實施已經實施由不得時不待人"},{"start":5178.891,"end":5206.661,"text":"台灣產業已經面對這樣的衝擊我剛剛已經說過了因為我們的密差比較大而且232對我們的產業是比較影響多我們居於這樣關鍵性的領先地位這兩個部分都是請告訴國人什麼時候可以談好談判是雙方2月1號到現在已經快一個月了我們國內的產業已經忍受到將近一個月的高關稅"},{"start":5208.412,"end":5237.319,"text":"對產業支持我們先用以緩計及方式在特別預算出來之前我們用以緩計及的方式先向你所提出的881加51931立法院也支持現在但是我們不能永無止境的等待我們尊重左院長你的說法很多都在談判過程中都還在保密好"},{"start":5239.745,"end":5263.741,"text":"請問什麼時候可以Daylight是什麼時候什麼時候可以做最後的確認要不要請談判代表來說一下現在努力的進行你不瞭解狀況嗎我當然知道 談判代表就請你直接回答本席好不好隨時都有向院長來做報告是不是也讓我跟委員來做一個報告從8月1號以來我們跟美方有繼續進行三次的視訊會議本席只請教先回答本席的問題什麼時候可以談完"},{"start":5264.281,"end":5279.28,"text":"我們當然希望越快越好那談判取決於雙方希望是代表什麼意思回溯我們在8月1號前沒能達成協議最重要的一個因素就是因為我國出口七成是半導體及ICT尤其占逆差的九成"},{"start":5279.781,"end":5304.93,"text":"那美方也表示這個項目在美方232的調查底下那也連動美方232關稅的政策方向所以台美需要一些時間持續就對等跟232一併對談 一併並談所以我們持續在這個談判中那我們希望越快越好那美國財政部長所以今天到立法院正式專案報告是給"},{"start":5308.973,"end":5333.104,"text":"有夢最美 希望相隨希望 希望產業都絕望了 你們還在希望我們全力以赴 越快越好那關於產業現在受到的衝擊院長也指示 你把外交辭令帶到這裡來人民快要活不下去了報告委員 我們上禮拜五還在視訊會議"},{"start":5334.941,"end":5351.468,"text":"這本來就該做的事情不需告訴我嘛你們本來就該做的事情嘛你說 談判什麼時候進行上禮拜五還在談表示這個談判一直在進行當中有需要 談判代表會直飛美國為什麼有一個這麼無能的政府嘛什麼叫希望嘛"},{"start":5353.319,"end":5368.849,"text":"我外交執行辦到立法院來嘛談判小組我們正在全力的進行談判當中那由於台美雙方在232的議題有關半導體跟ICT產業是相對於其他國家232的項目相對於複雜跟變動性我們全力不振在談判積極努力當中如果你帶來的只是希望兩個字請回"},{"start":5381.857,"end":5386.687,"text":"不會 我們會用結果來證明我們的努力兩位請回"},{"start":5387.932,"end":5411.162,"text":"告訴我們就是希望 兩位請回我們全力以赴 繼續努力爭取最好的結果 爭取更好的合理的稅率我們也必須要向大院做以上的報告報告委員 我剛剛說過國際談判難上加難最後的時間就是雙方條件多你們能力不足嘛 講白了就是這樣嘛那本席在這裡"},{"start":5415.086,"end":5431.177,"text":"一定要很強烈的讓院長了解台積電我們一分鐘來回顧一下中華民國政府在1974年民國63年當時的經濟部長我再強調一次經濟部長孫運璿"},{"start":5439.247,"end":5460.331,"text":"帶了七人小組在豆漿店裡面開啟了台灣的科技奇蹟在65年跟RCA簽約派了一批優秀的科技人才到美國去學習 再來"},{"start":5463.1,"end":5491.464,"text":"在民國74年成立了台灣集體電路公司台積電並邀請張忠謀來擔任負責人卓院長 這是我們台灣的手心我們的心骨肉台灣人民的心骨肉我們的政府跟全民所培養出來的"},{"start":5492.322,"end":5510.191,"text":"給了各種的優惠前面來留住人才這個台積電在民國76年1987年台積電公司成立請問一下周院長當時的李國鼎經濟部長跟現在的經濟部長"},{"start":5522.224,"end":5543.215,"text":"剛剛請辭的郭志輝面臨這4月2號到現在為止4 5 6 7 8 五個月請問台積電當時去美國跟美國總統川普在白宮開記者會的時候郭志輝部長說他不知道"},{"start":5547.759,"end":5553.718,"text":"那再請問我們所有對美關稅談判過程當中經濟部長有沒有參與"},{"start":5555.543,"end":5579.042,"text":"我們提出的對產業支持都是經濟部所提出來的我們對工業的出口進口對產業支持經濟部我說對美談判他有沒有參加嗎回答我問題有這麼困難嗎我們對工業出口的稅率 進口的稅率等等我們都是經濟部所提出來我們用這個稅率去進行談判的怎麼會沒有談判呢那你就告訴本席他有參與就好了嘛"},{"start":5580.248,"end":5583.618,"text":"對不對 當時的經濟部長是製造台灣奇蹟的人現在的經濟部長一問三不知"},{"start":5590.287,"end":5616.162,"text":"報告委員 每個時代的經濟部長都要面對不同的挑戰現在時代的經濟部長比較不重要啦可以不用參與就對了啦當時一個李國鼎 孫運璿可以造成台灣的奇蹟我到工業區的時候我都會感謝當時李國鼎當時孫運璿院長 李國鼎部長當時帶領那批年輕工程師締造台灣目前的高科技產業我都清楚這樣講過"},{"start":5618.763,"end":5641.534,"text":"這個時代的經濟部長不一樣啦 比其了解現在是廁所裡的花瓶啦完全不是核心 也沒有參與任何所以第一時間所有全國媒體問他他都不知道這個事情再問他說川普說要投資台積電要投資兩千億 三千億他說這是假新聞這就是現在執政團隊的經濟部長淪為國際的笑話"},{"start":5645.421,"end":5672.706,"text":"我對郭志輝部長抱屈啊完全排除在外的核心排除核心之外的人並非如此何必讓他當經濟部長委員你這樣子講真的我也要替他抱屈並非如此再來本席請教一下國家安全法第三條國家的核心關鍵技術之營業秘密台積電是不是是不是"},{"start":5673.698,"end":5700.828,"text":"是不是適用國安法第三條是國家核心關鍵技術台積電不僅對國家重要對世界重要它當然是國家的核心關鍵技術好 謝謝所以再來我們公司對外投資處理辦法第六條不與核准影響國家安全對國家經濟發展有不利的影響"},{"start":5702.766,"end":5731.389,"text":"請問台積電是不是對外投資如果核心技術移走是不是對台灣會造成相當大的影響下一頁不管依照國家安全法第三條的第一項第三項還是公司國外投資處理辦法第五條請問一下"},{"start":5733.206,"end":5737.192,"text":"卓院長 台積電什麼時候要送神"},{"start":5738.697,"end":5766.454,"text":"台積電要送審由台積電台積公司他們提出來要送審的時間由他們提出但是我們依據的就是包括委員剛剛所說的原則在內我們希望他在台灣搶但他經過他審慎頭思考要世界佈局的時候只要合乎我們的條件政府並不會阻擋但是我們要求跟留台灣我們要求台灣加一我們台灣要求關鍵技術要留在台灣核心的研發留在台灣這個原則不變"},{"start":5767.755,"end":5795.54,"text":"對美有N-1嗎有N-1嗎我們對台灣N-1在台灣要外國投資的 台灣不能減少對國外投資有沒有N-1美國的政策我不瞭解美國是不是N-1台灣對外的投資生產技術關鍵要關鍵技術有沒有前一代出去投資有沒有台灣一定要保持最領先的位置所以對外國的投資都不應該把核心技術往外所以對外投資"},{"start":5797.025,"end":5826.094,"text":"有確實執行恩檢因嗎在審查投審的審查過程當中一定是嚴格要求這關係到台灣的經濟命脈跟國家販產跟國家安全台灣日本美國更不要說三座晶圓廠兩座先進封裝廠主要研發團隊都搬過去來我們看一下台日韓關稅對美投資承諾的比較我們看一下日本"},{"start":5827.022,"end":5855.096,"text":"五千五百億美金韓國三千五百億美金台灣大概多少億美金這雙方的都有提出一些方案還沒有達成協議所以現在沒有做任何實質承諾卓院長您還是用你的老辦法再次在國會告訴國人說還沒有達成協議好那本席給你一個強烈的建議日本"},{"start":5856.246,"end":5872.732,"text":"承諾的5500億美金是因為日本的GDP 4.1兆美元他大概是用國家GDP的13%承諾投資韓國南韓1.87兆美元的GDP投資18.7到美國台灣只要是2500億美金就32%我們的GDP"},{"start":5886.466,"end":5891.709,"text":"3000億美金是38%4000億美金是51%我們台灣的GDP本席絕對不同意你們最後談這個協議是喪權辱國讓台灣世代都無法承受的這樣的財政壓力"},{"start":5910.64,"end":5934.057,"text":"好的 謝謝委員這一段我記住我請談判代表特別把副委員所提的這一段詳細記錄出來我們在談判的時候要用這樣的數據對外去做說明這個副委員教談判代表的內容如果談判有成我們一起為這樣的結果大家一起來享受這個成果如果談判遇到困難我們也希望大家共同來承擔這是當然雖然是民進黨在執政"},{"start":5938.547,"end":5960.463,"text":"但是這些發生問題全民都要承擔在野黨當然願意給我們的政府當靠山不過我跟委員講這一句要談出最好的條件這一些數據跟依據各國GDP的比較我們在談判代表都生計在心都生計在心也都用這樣來做依據的"},{"start":5963.53,"end":5988.955,"text":"不管對美投資2500億、3000億、4000億美金有沒有包括台積電的2000億有沒有台積電我知道它是實際精準一點數字是1650億目前1650嘛川普大定義宣布2000了嘛那他應該把它沒有關係1650還是2000億都可以請問有沒有包括在對美投資裡面"},{"start":5989.622,"end":6011.74,"text":"中華民國最美投資的這整個區塊有沒有就我政府立場任何一家國家的產業去投資都當作是我們國家出去的投資就我政府的立場這是包含在內嘛我們的立場是希望談判上一定要堅持美方有它的方式跟它時程上的斷定另外我們中油採購的阿拉斯加600萬噸的天然氣有沒有包含在內"},{"start":6012.813,"end":6037.775,"text":"目前這個還在初步的整個開發計畫還沒有完全成熟是在找一些合作投資的對象國家而已我們是表示基於能源安全我們願意購買更多安全的能源總院長 希望購買更多安全的能源 謝謝本席在這裡 希望您確認一個事情"},{"start":6039.946,"end":6066.09,"text":"在你承諾美國要簽署協議之前我希望你承諾在對美簽署協議之前要把完整的協議內容不是協議內容而已對國內產業所有的衝擊還有民生的影響這份報告送到立法院 再過來"},{"start":6066.926,"end":6095.046,"text":"我們談判過程絕對不能降低我們食安的標準還有標示等等我們不能降標國人健康跟糧食安全是四大原則裡面重要兩項另外兩個就是維持國家的利益跟產業的利益對於現在20%疊加關稅往上架往上架我們政府所有紓困的方式清單"},{"start":6097.145,"end":6104.819,"text":"要盡快送到立法院到時要一併送來立法院在修正條例當中原來的條例以及預算當中對國內產業解放是怎麼樣"},{"start":6108.595,"end":6136.289,"text":"要必須很完整送到立法院來可以嗎在任性條例以及修正案當中以及未來的特別預算裡面我們會強烈的來說明那當然如果委員提出任何的詢問我們各部會一定加強說明不僅讓國會瞭解也讓各產業瞭解這才是重點我們看一下齁當時你想台灣非常非常大的改變台灣政治方向也讓民進黨能夠順利執政當時台南花的訴求我們看一下"},{"start":6136.943,"end":6165.897,"text":"在這個地方我們還要重申兩岸協議建立條例的堅持的五大立法原則包括公民參與包括國會監督人權保障資訊公開以及政府負責第二點我們的成果我們的訴求是先立法再審查退 退 黑曉福報退退 黑曉福報退 退好 總院長過去是先立法再審查"},{"start":6167.348,"end":6189.139,"text":"現在我們完完全全都不知道它的內容是什麼那是立監督兩岸的法兩岸監督條例的法現在這個不是啊對外只要把台灣的核心辦出去通通是一樣影響到台灣的生存發展 卓院長"},{"start":6190.202,"end":6218.478,"text":"不要迴避這些問題台灣核心關鍵技術建設技術不會往外移我們至少保持最領先的這個世代這個是政府跟業界共通有的共識大家也會遵守 本席現在要給您一個非常大的一個建議對美的談判總院長要加油也給鄭麗君副院長本席知道您談判很辛苦但是要盡快有結果 不能讓人民"},{"start":6219.81,"end":6248.473,"text":"永遠在空等苦等本席在這裡強烈的建議當川普大帝要我們投資美國我們的政府如果是投資一千億美金舉例我們希望美國附帶的條件給他們的條件必須要提供華爾街的融資舉例來講阿拉斯加我們要投資"},{"start":6250.967,"end":6259.354,"text":"不管是他的建設 建構阿拉斯加輸氣管線 整個設備441美金如果我們要投資的話 還是預購未來的600萬噸請美國提供融資我們投資1000億 請他融資900億或是800億美金"},{"start":6281.049,"end":6308.886,"text":"就是一個方式同時也希望這家公司能夠美國要求我們投資的公司跟項目請他們用公司債的方式發CP有保證投報率我們來購買他的CP一切的建設由他自行操作但是投報率必須高於"},{"start":6310.336,"end":6318.817,"text":"他們給我們的貸款的利息這才能確保台灣的經濟不會被損耗掉"},{"start":6321.192,"end":6345.477,"text":"學長可以嗎阿拉斯天然氣的投資案不是美國單獨或是美國跟台灣兩國是一個國際性世界性現在都在討論的也多數國家提出興趣國際性更應該要這麼做我認為會有一道標準我認為會有一個標準是各國可以通用或是可以大體通用的一個方式那我們當然站在國家立場"},{"start":6346.337,"end":6374.856,"text":"委員所提的 我們都曾經這樣的設想過許多的方案 但還不到那個時候本席跟你強烈建議 要這麼做這個才不會拖垮台灣的財政跟台灣的產業就談判的方式來講 我們現在還沒有到那個程度我們不會輕易提出 既然是一個多國成立的公司更應該讓美國政府用國家的力量讓這家公司能夠盡快的"},{"start":6375.95,"end":6404.702,"text":"在美國上市在美國IPO發行公司在有保障的投報必須高於華爾街所提供的銀行利息才能讓我們國家的經濟立於不敗之地左院長請你慎思再來我們現在AI產業要代表我們整個國家在未來世界的科技發展裡面還在領先群"},{"start":6406.61,"end":6432.656,"text":"要用多少的電力啊所以你講電力就是國力就是戰力我們如果沒有電的話我們現在的配比80%火力發電7%火力發電大家用肺發電本期希望給你建議這一次對美的投資"},{"start":6437.537,"end":6463.762,"text":"前天希望重啟河山台灣人民跟不希望 不同意重啟河山是三倍的民意 三倍的民意因為大家不希望用昂貴的電讓國家沒有競爭力本席希望您這次對美談判吧"},{"start":6464.833,"end":6493.305,"text":"最先進 最安全全世界都期待的小型核能也把它列入投資或是政府必須購買的項目裡面可以讓台灣的電力不遺潰乏讓全世界最先進的產業科技產業能夠走進台灣讓台灣能夠吸收更多的這個國際的投資能夠走進來第一個 他們就問有沒有電力左院長可以把它納入嗎"},{"start":6494.383,"end":6523.324,"text":"我們說過新的核能技術總統也講過 先進的核能技術都是未來我們可以開放討論接受學習的目標它如果真的可以解決安全的問題沒有核廢料的問題而我們共同都有社會高度的共識這個就會成為未來台灣能源政策一種新的思考模式所以院長台灣不是世界最先進的國家先進的國家它的能源是怎麼使用怎麼配比"},{"start":6524.042,"end":6542.913,"text":"這是台灣政府要好好來學習的不要一味的用教條式的話術這個人民已經投完票了請尊重民意做政策的調整我們尊重結果 相信科學我們願意來共同討論"},{"start":6553.16,"end":6574.538,"text":"直接拆穿這個世紀謊言什麼風電啊 太陽能啊我們希望先進國家的思維是什麼我們不要還在買青黃茶他是對他國內講他沒有拆穿民進黨的謊言民進黨的政策我們會知道要跟國家與時俱進我們會做相同的討論"},{"start":6575.285,"end":6601.514,"text":"他在講他國內的風電太陽能是世紀謊言嘛那跟我們這邊你們的堅持不是一樣嗎你們堅持要風電太陽能嘛他講的世紀謊言那不是戳破大家講的嗎本席尊重你不要再那個嘛 對不對不要再背離民意嘛也不要背離產業嘛要把他們的產業都趕出去嘛 對不對我們看一下一下價格"},{"start":6603.069,"end":6628.927,"text":"外購風電6.59元 台電公布太陽能光電4.87元 可能發電1.38元院長 希望這一張 您貼在床頭每天睡覺前看一下 台灣要怎麼發展人民怎麼生存 請重視一下再看看我們現在用費發電"},{"start":6631.789,"end":6656.236,"text":"我們排炭連續9年破9000萬噸要台灣人民用廢發電人民已經做出了選擇請政府適可而止好不好那我們現在再討論一下我們的碳排量是逐年在下降台電提出過多次的精準的數據可以提供給委員做參考現在時間很有限國防預算9495億創新高"},{"start":6660.53,"end":6684.818,"text":"這當然包括這次對美的包裹這有沒有包括這次對美的包裹所有這些軍工採購都在裡面有沒有這個是明年的總預算加上部分過去的特別預算為數不多就是總預算但是我們採行的是北約的通案的算法把海巡 退府都加進來才達到這個數字現在GDP是3.3%"},{"start":6688.16,"end":6697.485,"text":"我們明天是佔3.3%本席在這裡給你建議代表國民黨團2001年阿扁執政當時2377億的國防預算現在9495億國防預算剛好4倍當時的人均"},{"start":6717.659,"end":6735.132,"text":"GDP是13400美元現在是34000美元我們的經濟成長只有2.5倍但是我們的國防預算增加了4倍還不包括我不曉得"},{"start":6736.437,"end":6748.53,"text":"9月份會不會又送了一個大禮包來報告委員我說過了我們現在的算法是採取北約模式把退府把海巡等等加進來把資安加進來才達到這個9000多億請問卓院長你把這個加進來2001年阿扁執政這些沒有加進來嗎那時候沒有採北約模式是我們原來的數字是"},{"start":6761.725,"end":6789.794,"text":"當時 請問一下 當時沒有退幅嗎但是沒有加進來 算國防預算沒有關係本席現在在提醒您的是我們經濟成長只有2.5倍不管你現在是4倍的國防預算增加還是3.5倍的國防預算增加還是3倍也好都趕不上經濟成長的腳步周院長 本席要特別提醒您一下"},{"start":6792.289,"end":6811.56,"text":"1960年到1990年美國跟蘇聯的爭霸美國用圍堵的政策讓蘇聯軍備競賽經濟被圍堵用一樣的軍費大家火拼到最後經濟跟不上30年時間蘇聯因為經濟崩潰而解體"},{"start":6817.102,"end":6841.631,"text":"如果我們今天沒有足夠的經濟實力來充實我們的國防卓院長卓院長這不只對我們國家的財政是沉重的負擔更對我們所有民生所有的這些知識都會遭到排擠卓院長本席在這裡要特別"},{"start":6842.629,"end":6870.49,"text":"這個故事本席要再講一次報告委員兩句話我們是基於國家的主權安全的維護考量到我們的財政能力所以我們有很多包括不對稱戰爭的因素我們採取國家對國防的需求所以總統在2月就提出了所以國軍將士加急兩萬塊還是不給總統在今年事業已經核定了國軍的加急各類的加急我們希望能夠"},{"start":6875.249,"end":6884.181,"text":"這兩萬塊 國軍加起的從一萬到三萬本席希望在預算書送到立法院來的時候本席要看見沒有強健的國軍"},{"start":6885.953,"end":6912.817,"text":"因為為國犧牲奮戰買再多的武器都是恍然很抱歉這個在預算沒有編列但是我們說過我們提出釋憲釋憲結果之後對不起釋憲的結果公告你就要實施你實施的同時你可以去釋憲請依法不要違法在釋憲結果之後釋憲是你的權利我們可以但是要依法先實施編或不編如果編會同時補足本席在這裡最後苦口婆心"},{"start":6916.398,"end":6942.813,"text":"50年前東南亞經濟最強盛的國家叫做菲律賓但是出到一個馬可思總統他的腐敗讓菲律賓人三代為奴台灣三代人的努力我們一定要守住一定要守住希望卓院長 腰桿挺直跟美國人談判 好不好我們堅持國家立場另外徐委員跟林委員有任何的指教"},{"start":6944.244,"end":6969.239,"text":"好 謝謝副委員 許委員還有林委員的質詢謝謝卓院長下一位我們請陳昭之委員質詢謝謝主席 有請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":6986.912,"end":7003.81,"text":"陳委員好院長您從12號到明天26號短短兩週當中您要來立法院做六個專題報告辛苦院長了謝謝這是我們行政的責任我希望能夠把議題講得清楚大家一起來支持"},{"start":7004.15,"end":7030.999,"text":"我自己也在不到一周當中就跟院長您做這個詢答兩次我想國事如麻百事待局就是大家辛苦了院長今年四月台灣正值清明節那美國宣布了新的關稅政策四月四日的時候您帶領行政院的同仁開了一個記者會那時候您就知道美國提高關稅的一個重要目的就是要打掉紅色供應鏈"},{"start":7032.495,"end":7052.705,"text":"所以在行政院的記者會上您提到台灣過去幾年推出的投資台灣三大方案吸引台商回國來投資或是前往東南亞、歐洲或是美洲設廠目的是要符合非紅供應鏈的產業安全需求"},{"start":7053.425,"end":7079.296,"text":"也就是說除了分散風險之外就是要去除打掉紅色供應鏈我相信行政院知道美方川普總統非常重視這一塊這件事情所以你們才會特別提出來我想先請教卓院長我這樣的理解正確嗎沒有錯 後來也證實在雙方技術性挫傷裡面的一項就是經濟安全他們認為很重要 尤其台灣在"},{"start":7080.865,"end":7097.207,"text":"地緣政治第一線跟中國非常的接近有很多的產品互相交流密切所以他希望台灣能夠守住這個民主供應鏈的第一發道防線那到目前為止行政院對於去除紅色供應鏈做了哪些努力有沒有成效呢"},{"start":7098.015,"end":7123.457,"text":"我們有事前事後事中各項包括財政部包括經濟部的一些措施事前我們要加強的審查事中我們要加強的成效成效我們現在這個成效在目前來看我們一步一步達到的階段性所以現在很多的廠商從中國離開他可能去到南向國家"},{"start":7123.925,"end":7153.705,"text":"也有可能就回到台灣來那這個就變成我們在未來的供應鏈上會比較安定我特別去搜尋一下您對於有關紅色供應鏈的發言今年3月13號您說脫離紅色供應鏈很快就會看到實際作為還說要建立一個民主的產業供應鏈要讓全世界有門國家能夠脫離紅色的供應鏈建立一個非紅的民主供應鏈這些口號聽起來非常的響亮建立一個非紅的民主"},{"start":7155.467,"end":7163.56,"text":"但實際上台灣各個產業對於紅色供應鏈的緊密程度跟脫離程度請問行政院有掌握嗎"},{"start":7164.531,"end":7189.561,"text":"我們很多的產業各不同的產業包括工具機的產業裡面它還是有過去傳統來有一些中國的零組件院長的意思是說你們掌握我們都有到地方去了解那我們希望這個事情我們很希望能夠展現出來一個具體的措施跟進度但是我們也要協助廠商來做市場或是整個供應鏈的一個調整或轉移"},{"start":7189.881,"end":7212.706,"text":"老實說這個口號來治國是容易的這不是口號 都已經在做不過請經濟部能夠說明但是如果要落實如果要其實很幸福經濟部說這不是口號跟委員報告其實我們財政部跟經濟部在進出口的一些資訊的掌握其實都有針對一些特別異常的一些從大陸進來的產品做一些監控"},{"start":7213.126,"end":7231.733,"text":"我接下來會去資料請教坦白說這是一個可能會很辛苦甚至很痛苦的一個過程甚至會有壓力會有流失選票的壓力但是我必須要說執政者就是要擔當就是要擔當這樣的事情那請問院長脫離紅色供應鏈的目標什麼時候可以達成你有這個時程或時間點嗎"},{"start":7233.615,"end":7251.027,"text":"我們會照目前在財政部事前事中事後嚴審的這個方式把他的數據都找出來他審查了多少個這個廠商找到多少貨品我們會循序的去找到他的源頭來改變這個事實那這個目前在進行當中"},{"start":7251.987,"end":7281.027,"text":"我查詢行政院各部會最近一次在立法院進行和紅色供應鏈相關的專題報告我發現上一次是2021年經濟委員會那有安排相關的議程我拜讀了經濟部國發會國安局還有陸委會的報告很多報告都在談甲外資針中資中資挖角我國的人才等等其中國發會他的報告裡面提到積極協助台商回流"},{"start":7281.787,"end":7301.12,"text":"加速供應鏈的重組進一步強化對抗紅色供應鏈的產業動態 動能還有要形塑完整的上中下游的產業供應鏈請問院長 形塑完整的上中下游的產業供應鏈從2019年開始啟動的台商回流您認為做到了嗎 好幾年了我們請國發會來講一下現在的進展"},{"start":7310.767,"end":7337.566,"text":"我想我們推動台商回流的方案裡面最重要就是希望我們在中國大陸的廠商可以回到台灣來生產我們投資台灣三大方案推動以後我發現其實伺服器還有我們電子五哥的很多的企業都回到台灣來生產然後建立出台灣自主的產業供應鏈是有進度的嗎是的 現在已經有兩兆多的投資回到台灣"},{"start":7338.386,"end":7364.313,"text":"但是我想要跟院長和大家說明我實際看到說可以說是沒有上週諮詢我也有引用這段話我指出這個報導工具機大佬也就是台灣工具機繼林組建工會的名譽理事長許文憲他這樣說下面都是他講的話美國關稅的真正意圖是要圍堵中國製造要各國去除紅色供應鏈結果台灣卻是連工具機組產業都大量"},{"start":7365.393,"end":7391.332,"text":"使用這個紅色供應鏈來降低跟您主見來降低它的這個製造成本對美國來說這是他說的話台灣就是紅色供應鏈的參與者獲利者只要沒有斷掉紅色供應鏈的話美國對台灣藉由關稅的制裁是不會停止的那台灣送再多的這個台積電給美國也是沒有用我今天再請教院長一次您同意許理事長的看法嗎"},{"start":7392.262,"end":7410.694,"text":"跟委員報告其實徐理事長他本身他也是經營工具機的一個先進你同意他的看法嗎其實他這一席話在工具機的內部也引起了很多的一個討論事實上我們國產的工具機的這些業者"},{"start":7411.354,"end":7429.603,"text":"大部分用的都還是以我們國內的供需機業者他所生產的MIT的產品為主所以我想這個部分我要談的是說政府如果沒有處理的話斷掉我國各產業的紅色供應鏈的問題還有零組件取緻紅色供應鏈的嚴重的問題"},{"start":7430.583,"end":7452.458,"text":"那行政院過去說的 行速上中下游的這個供應展鏈就是一個空話就是一個口號治國啊而且台灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合那業界為了節省成本那從紅色供應鏈帶上去的林子健這句話我覺得我們修正一下台灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合這句話絕對不是正確這樣子會讓我們在未來對國際非常難以交代"},{"start":7455.54,"end":7482.901,"text":"美方透過AIT 透過美國在來協會他們這些資訊掌握得一清二楚啊但是沒有說台灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合我們就是知道過去傳統上有一些零組件會用到所以我們現在極力在改變這個事件如果行政院沒有落虎沉舟的決心去改變這個問題那我想美國降低台灣關稅這個意願就非常低啦所以我還是再請教您一次請問您的目標何時能夠達成呢"},{"start":7484.229,"end":7509.221,"text":"我們在跟美方談判的時候談判團隊當談到經濟安全的時候都會把我們現在包括財政部以及國發會剛剛所提的數據都會跟美國表示我們努力的過程是這樣子我們來看一下數字鄭州市我讀到這則新聞日本今年7月對美出口額跟去年7月同期相比下滑了10.1%請問院長您覺得這對台灣是個警訊嗎"},{"start":7513.303,"end":7527.737,"text":"世界任何國家經濟情勢的變化我們都會注意日本掉了10.1%院長您知道台灣今年7月對美出國總額跟去年同期相比您知道是增加還是下降呢我們應該是增加的"},{"start":7531.049,"end":7557.109,"text":"請院長看這個數字我去查了官網網站上的統計數字台灣今年7月跟去年同期相比增幅達62.8%去年7月出口的美國總值是114.5億美元今年7月是186.45億美元和日本的衰退下滑對比台灣反而是增加的但是我想請問院長您認為台灣這樣的成績亮眼嗎你滿意嗎"},{"start":7560.302,"end":7577.149,"text":"我們對產業的努力非常的肯定但是這個原因就在於美國需要高度的很多AI產品台灣從大陸中國回來之後的廠商從台灣出去都算在台灣的這個產值裡面這個就是造成雙方現在關係必須要彈性"},{"start":7577.489,"end":7591.822,"text":"你看到的是單一的數字我再請你看總體的數字上一頁簡報是7月同期增加62.8%看起來成績不錯但是如果你把這個相關數字放在總體來看從今年1月到7月跟同期相比"},{"start":7592.745,"end":7605.062,"text":"我覺得院長你頭會沒要收因為事實上從今年1月下旬川普就任總統以後台灣出口到美國的總值就開始增加2月增加了65.62%一點都沒有輸給7月但是4月2號"},{"start":7609.108,"end":7622.192,"text":"川普宣布新的關稅政策後當月的出口總值就只掉到了只增加29.45%可是5月跟6月請院長看卻飆升到87.31%跟90.88%院長認為為什麼5月6月會有這個狀況呢當然4月大家存在一種觀望的態度後來之後"},{"start":7633.578,"end":7655.556,"text":"可能對方的需求也增加了希望在趕一個時間點上能夠盡量把關稅在比較大家可以預測的情況底下貨品能夠出去所以造成這樣一個所謂搶單塞港的問題答案 我認為個人答案是因為4月9號川普宣布說延後90天實施嘛所以這個業者趕緊趕工啊這個生產出口到美國"},{"start":7656.317,"end":7676.259,"text":"但是在7月的時候這個數字雖然比同期是增加62.8可是如果你要跟前兩個月相比5月跟6月它開始下滑那你看到這樣的現象跟數字我認為台灣如果真的被課以20%加N的高關稅那出口美國種子勢必會直直落啊熊院長你怎麼解讀這個數字"},{"start":7678.103,"end":7694.691,"text":"用一個月兩個月三個月個別的調整的數字來看我想不夠精準那我們現在希望能夠跟對美的這個談判在談判代表團的努力下盡快的穩定下來只有穩定下來我們才能把我們的策略措施能夠全面展開"},{"start":7695.471,"end":7713.591,"text":"這個數字就是剛剛副總召要你戴上床頭看每個月的變化當然是有的非常重要的數字那有關美國關稅衝擊我還是要談到工具機產業有許多勞工受到影響 報載工具機領域有勞斯萊斯之稱的百德基建"},{"start":7714.251,"end":7732.742,"text":"他已經開始做這個做事休三的無薪假雖然事後百德機械強調訂單調整已經恢復正常的工時可是台中市勞工局卻說業者從8月15日送出來的這個減班休息申請沒有撤回喔 院長沒有撤回喔"},{"start":7733.402,"end":7761.698,"text":"同一篇報導台中的經濟董事長黃明和透露他的下游上中下百家的這個協力廠都淪陷了他不是坐四修三就是坐三修四那個百德董事長謝端木也說他們國內許多客戶的終端產品仍然是以出口美國為主很難擺脫關稅的衝擊請問行政院對於工具機業者的減班休息無薪假"},{"start":7762.378,"end":7778.089,"text":"掌握到什麼程度呢檢辦休息無論是因景氣或因關稅勞動部都持續而且是主動在訪視是不是請黃部長能夠說明面臨這樣的衝擊行政院怎麼因應怎麼協助怎麼輔導請黃部長說明還要去組紅色供應鏈呢跟陳委員說明其實的確工具機是現在幾個產業裡面會比較辛苦的一個產業這是事實"},{"start":7786.735,"end":7808.788,"text":"那也是我們看到了現在幾個產業現在減班休息的狀況所以勞動部我們也提出了一個強化版的雇用安定措施讓減班休息的勞工他可能會有這個他不能無薪喔我還要再強調是不能夠無薪我們法規上面是不能無薪的可是他的這個薪資的差額我們會來補貼從五成變成七成"},{"start":7811.79,"end":7828.063,"text":"這些是警訊你要去面對未來有那麼多的未知無知到現在大家都還不清楚每一個減班休息的廠商他來通報我們都會主動的聯繫跟主動的訪視所以每一家我們都了解他的狀況"},{"start":7828.763,"end":7854.888,"text":"我想請教卓院長卓院長台灣面臨關稅大戰產業升級轉型大力發展AI供電穩定是一個非常重要議題重啟核三的公投結果投票率雖然低但434萬張同意票比起151萬張不同意票高達三倍有別於民進黨緊抱數十年的反非核家園神主牌這是台灣的新的主流民意我相信也是政府要的"},{"start":7855.248,"end":7878.154,"text":"否則賴總統也不會在第一時間說不排除先進核能即刻請台電進行體檢等等童子賢董事長也說公投結果已經足以彰顯民意期待政府要務實接受這是符合科學趨勢而且也不違背民主進步請問院長您能接受重啟核三的新民意嗎還是你的選擇會跟賴總統不一樣呢"},{"start":7880.795,"end":7902.249,"text":"對新核能技術的討論我已經講過很多很多次總統也講過很多很多次不是昨天前天才講的雖然公投雖然公投的結果雖然公投的結果對政府不產生任何的拘束力但是我們已經依照核管法的裡面的規定核安會已經提出了第一個審查辦法的我們已經依照"},{"start":7906.257,"end":7908.898,"text":"謝謝陳委員謝謝卓院長接下來請王定宇委員質詢方委員質詢完畢 我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":7944.575,"end":7960.487,"text":"謝謝副院長 麻煩院長請左院長備詢另外鄭麗君副院長也請請鄭副院長備詢一定要辛苦"},{"start":7961.329,"end":7974.964,"text":"國務院好 不會 謝謝 大家都辛苦是 鄭副院長也是因為談判的事情很繁重你還欠我一次約定對 但是國事為重我現在請教幾個大家比較關心的議題"},{"start":7976.175,"end":7993.523,"text":"那我覺得在努力的談判過程當中我們常常因為保密或者是還在過程當中不便透露因為這樣導致被誤解我覺得這個是最為冤枉的所以在可以透明的情形下盡量透明讓民眾了解現在遇到什麼狀況我第一題要問得比較簡單"},{"start":7995.184,"end":8022.282,"text":"大家一直在傳聞說美國希望台灣開放整車的市場全車的市場那有關美國整車免稅來到台灣這件事情到底在談判有沒有觸及它在未來有沒有可能發生你方便回答到什麼程度我都尊重了是不是請鄭副院長回答一下謝謝委員我想整個談判過程我們每一次的實體談判其實有向社會"},{"start":8023.435,"end":8037.326,"text":"來說明我們談判的進程我們也說明說我們談判的議題觸及關稅非關稅貿易障礙貿易便捷化經濟安全數位貿易以及投資採購等商業機會我們也有向社會來說明相關的範疇"},{"start":8042.096,"end":8067.673,"text":"那這裡面當然隨著談判的進展那美方會持續性的提出他的期待那尤其美方在各國談判的過程當中我這一題其實蠻精準的因為日本 韓國都遇到了是 美方也會期待說各國要提供這個市場開放所以就有關關稅非關稅貿易障礙部分的確我方也會磋商不過我們都會"},{"start":8072.256,"end":8100.335,"text":"因為賴總統也曾經宣示過我們願意在某一些產業上把我們市場開放對消費者是加惠的坦白講台灣我們主要的產業是在做汽車零組件整車的那一家公司扶植了那麼多年該成材找成材了現在還在進口中國車所以對消費者或台灣民眾來講整車零關稅我可以降低我的採購的負擔"},{"start":8101.896,"end":8124.484,"text":"對美方來講它對日本也有要求對韓國也有要求日本是汽車大國它還是要開放所以我覺得這個命題太明顯了那我該問的就是說因為我發現這兩天有一些有一些在評論這個事情的人因為這個點有一些誤會那產生了一些怨言我的題目很簡單針對美國整車免稅來台就是開放市場"},{"start":8128.746,"end":8153.724,"text":"我們在談判當中這一點到底有沒有觸及未來的可能性是大還是小向委員報告 美方的確會期待市場開放當然我們也會基於產業利益然後國民健康糧食安全來均於討論所以我們也會就這個部分來研商這當中美車的部分其實除了關稅也有非關稅貿易障礙"},{"start":8154.557,"end":8181.603,"text":"因為每規車要進來也會涉及相關的安全空間那個車安檢查那個是行政程序啦相關的標準雙方的制度性的如何的對接所以這個都在談判的範圍內這個在未來的半年內或一年內在談判的範圍裡面可以跟委員說在談判的範圍裡面那等到我們所有談判抵定之後我們所有的細節一定會向國會跟社會完整的來說明所以這個是有在談判的範圍內"},{"start":8183.783,"end":8210.573,"text":"因為這牽涉到車安的規範 驗證的標準等等那個是技術問題所以如果有在談判的範圍內也就在總結談判結論出來的時候它就會出現了目前因為我們都在技術性磋商過程大致因為技術性磋商我們才能夠堆疊出最後整個談判的結論總結談判大致上我們在這些範疇都有進行研商但我方還沒達成協議最重要是還沒有進行總結性的會議總結性的會議"},{"start":8212.754,"end":8234.633,"text":"有沒有預計什麼時候要開目前從8月1號回來之後我們經過三次視訊那我們這個視訊現在接下來談判目標第一個再降對等關稅第二爭取不疊加第三因為台灣我們有九成的逆差來自ICT跟半導體這個聯動美方現在正在制定的232關稅的政策所以一併磋商232那我們這個三者達成共識"},{"start":8237.876,"end":8247.602,"text":"一定的共識之後美方會安排總結性會議所以從8月1號台灣被放在NXI在NX1裡面之後你們開過三次視訊會議所以這個三次視訊會議就是在朝著總結性會議的進度邁進然後把對等關稅跟232相關的項目有關不疊加以及把對等關稅往下降"},{"start":8262.25,"end":8288.369,"text":"目前有没有方向我们已经表达了争取但是因为要到这个总结性会议在协商最终的税率的时候才会有一个定案那通常我们在视讯会议是give and take我们表达这样的期望那他一定会提出条件来要怎么样子才能往那个方向迈进谈判是这样因为我们的对口有贸易代表署然后我们会就刚刚我所提的这些范畴"},{"start":8289.042,"end":8314.179,"text":"還有未來可能雙方要達成協議的這個框架協議逐條逐項的討論那我們也同步的跟商務部來持續就供應鏈的合作因為你是談判的總負責所有的議題都談判完了之後就會來進行總結的會議總結會議就會來議定最後的這個稅率跟所有的條件一併成立所以我在請教你議際這個總結會議"},{"start":8317.537,"end":8339.609,"text":"会落在九月份吗我们当然希望越快越好就是落在这些你不赶快越快越好那个暂时性的20%冲击就会越大你这边越快不管是232不管是我们的对等关税或者什么东西开放市场要进到台湾你越早厘清我们离圣诞节那个季节很近了"},{"start":8340.029,"end":8364.643,"text":"它很多東西在這個時候Pending在那裡其實是對中小企業比較大我想跟委員報告第一個當然我們積極推進談判但談判取決於雙方但我們仍然全力努力希望越快越好那我們希望說能夠爭取稅率再降第二點是因為談判裡面相關的細節我現在無法逐一的回應也是因為為了維繫最好的談判的結果"},{"start":8365.143,"end":8389.083,"text":"因為如果說過度揭露相關的條件在最後整體在進行溝通的時候我們國會在監督我國會在監督我都尊重談判的節奏但我現在要問的是我要請教副院長的是你們現在已經從8月1號以後有三次的視訊會議那接下來還會有視訊會議還是接下來就是把各自的文件擬妥準備到下個階段的會議"},{"start":8390.314,"end":8409.579,"text":"我們三次視訊會是有一定的進度我可以跟委員這樣報告那還會再有多的視訊會議嗎然後我們隨時有在聯繫那我們也希望能夠盡快的來進行進入最關鍵的總結會議的階段目前都在持續的延長中那我們也跟美方表達了我們三項的談判的這個目標"},{"start":8410.883,"end":8430.625,"text":"我們能期望在九月份看到更進一步的訊息嗎時程的確取決於雙方不過美國財政部長Besant他也曾經有對外表達說希望尚未完成談判的國家在十月底前可以完成但是我方希望能夠在此之前越快越好對 因為Besant提十月底"},{"start":8431.286,"end":8451.092,"text":"那我們希望早一點大概就只剩9月份嘛因為這個談判還是要花時間的所以從這個時間的落點來看不管這個暫停我們暫時的這個稅率要維持90天或多少天從8月1號開始你們有做了一些進度了那10月份Payson希望都達到結論那大概落點在9月份這個預測"},{"start":8452.637,"end":8476.39,"text":"希望啦 我只能講期望我們希望越快越好我剛才講到整車這塊我覺得這個牽涉到市場秩序如果這一個日本已經是零韓國是零那台灣如果有預計要往這邊邁進的話我覺得要讓消費者當然整個談判過程我們都會參考社會各界的意見然後我們相關部會也有跟"},{"start":8476.87,"end":8497.336,"text":"因為觀望跟期待心理是總體經濟裡面有這兩個變數其實影響很大我希望行政要注意這一點那我也要提醒院長這裡比亞迪或中國其他的電動車輛是不可能讓他來這邊洗產地或者傾銷因為他賣不出去了他倉庫堆了一堆不管是經由泰國或任何第三國要洗進來台灣這個是萬萬不可"},{"start":8500.218,"end":8523.373,"text":"這個不僅是會影響到談判因為稀產地也會影響到我們國家的國安跟治安我希望經濟部或者我們行政院這一點要很明確的態度我比亞迪不管你要改成任何名字從哪裡來或者其他中國電車你中國的倉庫堆滿碼頭銷不出去台灣絕對不讓你請銷我們基於國安治安也不讓你進來我更不容許你來這邊稀產地"},{"start":8524.934,"end":8550.446,"text":"這個席產地是川普這一次對等關稅裡面主要的目標之一所以我不曉得我們院長跟經濟部這邊有沒有明確的態度經濟部討伐之前兩個原則第一個在台灣生產的一定要符合我們逐年加嚴的在本地化的這個製造率 自治率本地化的逐年加嚴第二個無論它中國的產品如何繞道貼牌換牌過來我們都嚴格的管制"},{"start":8550.816,"end":8566.183,"text":"我們希望維持的是台灣的產業 經濟的安全以及我們在這整個供應鏈上能夠維持現在的地位來經濟部是不是簡單說明一下跟委員報告就是說中國的品牌車不管是從哪一個地方其實我們就是"},{"start":8567.023,"end":8584.604,"text":"全力的防堵他進到台灣來所以我們是不准他進來的是因為人家以前特洛伊木馬還要放一些香檳美酒拐你拖進去我們沒有道理自己花錢買了一堆小木馬進來這一點要守住所以我也希望公開呼籲很多的業者現在還在做一些廣告"},{"start":8585.525,"end":8613.03,"text":"對社會會產生不實的狀況還在置入啦我已經要求經濟部能夠跟業者之談不要做這些誤導性的廣告甚至於有些在遊說在搞置入行銷置入新聞的揭露來讓社會大眾知道誰在收錢辦事幫忙做遊說我覺得這個透明化大家看得清楚那到底是廣告還是新聞到底是廣告還是遊說背後的力量我覺得行政院這一塊可以硬起來把它做揭露"},{"start":8613.89,"end":8623.256,"text":"資訊的透明揭露嚴格執行我接下來請教院長其他可以請回來有關這一次對等關稅談判的農業開放的議題我只提一點"},{"start":8624.594,"end":8647.081,"text":"我們現在台灣的公糧收購其實我們在立法院常常提到公糧收購都講到本土農業一公斤九塊多或幾塊那這個在農業的議題上公糧收購的價格定太高會影響到自由市場反而對農業不利啦這個我今天不討論這一塊我今天要講的是就我們了解我們的公糧收購除了像台灣的農民收購以外"},{"start":8647.941,"end":8659.825,"text":"我們也有跟國外買有跟泰國跟美國買是不是農業部部長這邊可以說明我跟委員報告就是在稻米部分當初在加入WTO以後有所謂的配額制那配額是一年是144,720噸"},{"start":8663.466,"end":8691.544,"text":"這個配額裡面又分一個是政府配額一個是民間的那政府的部分就是由政府來採購就是您剛才講的由公糧進來因為時間關係我現在講說我們都以前大家國外人都以為公糧收購就是我們這裡種赤藍稍微放在那層殼裡面都以為是買本產的米其實我們有一塊是因為當年世貿組織加入之後要求是對國外買那我們看到川普總統要求日本開放他的米"},{"start":8692.524,"end":8721.479,"text":"讓美國米可以賣過去對日本來講米雖然產值不大可是是他們本來說是神聖不可侵犯的他也開放了就我們現在看起來台灣的公糧收購有買美國米嗎我們一年買幾噸大概一年大概是六萬四千噸左右我現在要問的是如果我們在去美國談判的我們有關公糧收購本來就一定要買公糧一定的配比就要買外國米的話我能不能乾脆就多買美國米"},{"start":8723.322,"end":8741.825,"text":"不過我跟委員報告就是稻米因為是我們糧食安全非常重要的產品而且我們國內是小農制影響的農民數大概22萬所以在稻米我們還是盡量跟美國溝通就是說稻米是我們糧食安全一個非常重要的那您剛才說的日本的部分是用配額的方式去處理"},{"start":8742.346,"end":8758.804,"text":"對 他用配額去買他也是用配額的方式處理但是日本跟台灣不一樣我們能不能在不影響我們本土米本土公糧收購的狀況下在配額上做調整我多買一點美國米啊把關稅降下來對生產製造業有幫助我也沒影響到容業可是我把配額米呢"},{"start":8759.602,"end":8782.908,"text":"多買一點美國這樣會不會違反WTO的規定WTO規定只有下限的部分上限的部分沒有我還是跟委員報告我們還是積極去跟美國溝通但是我們也同時也想了非常多的因應的方法最主要是不會影響到不會衝擊到我們的農民是第一要件的當然我們農民是根本那個要保護他"},{"start":8784.009,"end":8798.048,"text":"我們本來公糧收購就在買外國米在那個比例上我們讓談判代表有至少有個工具可以去談因為公糧收購如果全部買本產米那另外一回事長年來我們都買泰國米"},{"start":8798.993,"end":8825.428,"text":"有大概一年大概兩萬八千噸左右還有其他國家還有越南米越南米還有日本米這兩塊對我們不好我的意思是說我們現在談判的時候我不好意思講一些話但我的意思是說在對外採購米的時候有時候美國要求的是一個公平那個產值其實不大我們在配合上調整一下在意識上順了讓我們關稅談判多一點武器其實不壞"},{"start":8826.955,"end":8841.932,"text":"不轉公園是嗎對 我知道但是政府配額裡面的國家配額是固定的它是比較難調整那剛才說的就是說用其他的方式這一題讓農業部去思考不影響本產米怎麼樣在幫助談判上"},{"start":8843.695,"end":8863.65,"text":"又符合我們世界貿易組織的規範上去處理然後我最後10秒鐘提醒行政院就是說如果我們對美軍事採購的金額這麼高他們容許商售方式列入貿易赤字的額度計算的話那我們就應該好好精算累一點把它拆開來買一樣的東西但是列入貿易赤字的底下"},{"start":8870.509,"end":8880.675,"text":"好 謝謝王委員 謝謝卓院長發言會休息十分鐘休息之後繼續進行質詢現在休息"},{"start":9478.587,"end":9501.481,"text":"發言會現在繼續開會 請黃委員三三質詢謝謝主席 我請卓院長好 請卓院長備詢"},{"start":9512.848,"end":9534.935,"text":"黃國榮好院長早我想今天都是國人非常關心的有關關稅的專案報告雖然談判還在進行中我也知道你很多事情沒有辦法現在對國人說但是我必須說從4月到現在國人都在等進一步的消息院長你覺得目前為止政府的處置你滿意嗎"},{"start":9536.704,"end":9564.974,"text":"我覺得第一個談判代表團很辛苦再來我們適度的把談判的次數進度向外界講但細節內容到底是有所保留我必須說國人不太滿意啦不滿意的不是說我們談判代表不努力我們都知道這一次川普的關稅他是對著全世界開槍台灣只是其中一個所以沒有辦法怪任何一個人但是他的目標很清楚開放市場"},{"start":9565.919,"end":9591.965,"text":"投資美國 講完了所以不做這兩件事就不可能談得好對吧他為了也是要他的貿易赤字還有他的財政赤字跟貿易差只要跟他貿易赤字的無一倖免不管是不是他的盟友包括日本 韓國包括所謂的歐盟沒有一個人置身事外所以20加N從8月7號到現在應該還在進行中吧"},{"start":9592.659,"end":9600.753,"text":"所以我們就以緩急急的方式所以它就是一個現在進行式嗎對 我們對特殊的產業有受到傷害我們以緩急急來協助它"},{"start":9601.639,"end":9627.906,"text":"談判代表很努力美國政府沒有辦法達成協議我覺得還是回到一個問題是政府有沒有讓人民安心過程裡面我們沒有人說談判代表不努力但是我覺得人民不夠安心尤其是在7月31號副院長在這邊我想我們必須要表達人民對於這件事情的看法7月31號全部的國人引頸期盼等著行政院的回答"},{"start":9628.533,"end":9651.08,"text":"行政院發言人出來說已經在談了而且在寫聯合聲明了我們都覺得很棒啊但是第二天早上起來是突然間發現第一沒有聯合聲明第二不是什麼技術性磋商第三20%就算了過了一天才說20%還要加N這才是今天我剛剛說國人不滿意的原因"},{"start":9652.128,"end":9670.899,"text":"我們知道川普要什麼可是我們不知道我們的行政團隊是這樣的方式讓國人在過程中竟然是受到這樣的驚嚇院長你瞭解我的意思嗎7月31號為什麼會發明莫名其妙的聯合聲明呢說聯合聲明正在寫一個天早上沒有"},{"start":9672.202,"end":9698.647,"text":"既有關稅加上對等關稅這個我們早先就講過好 聯合聲明是院長說的還是行政院發言人自己亂說的我們覺得要加強那談判的過程請副院長跟委員來報告那的確從事業以來聯合聲明是隨便亂說的嗎沒有 我們的確和美方戳傷了所有相關的技術性議題以及聯合聲明相關的內容有戳傷不是正在寫 只是有戳傷但他說的是正在寫"},{"start":9700.205,"end":9704.689,"text":"這件事情我的意思是說行政院必須要對國人說個抱歉因為經過幾輪的談判相關的技術性議題大致的共識也完成行政院發言人這樣說對還是不對"},{"start":9721.243,"end":9744.117,"text":"是對的 因為我們的確跟美方進行了聯合聲明的磋商所以第二天在最後一輪的實體磋商當中的確有但最後一天沒有能夠達 事實上跟委員報我努力到最後一天所以就是空包等沒有達成共識有兩個原因第一個是美方沒有得以安排同學性的會議所以我們只是自己說說不是"},{"start":9744.637,"end":9772.148,"text":"第二美方也有通知我方因為我方的這個逆差結構有九成我只要說這是中華民國政府闖出的最大的笑話第二個是第二天才開始吵說20%要不要加N然後看到日本在吵我們才赫然發現我們也要加N然後現在你告訴我們你要去爭取不加N這是對你之前講過了但是全國人民大概只有"},{"start":9773.189,"end":9792.006,"text":"美方希望許談是因為我們聯動232半導體ICT院長如果你早就像這樣子想得很清楚我們都知道我們在記者會有說明全部的媒體都沒有人知道全部的民眾都沒有人知道就是立法委員不認真所以我們都不知道絕對不是"},{"start":9792.486,"end":9817.513,"text":"所以以後不要再闖這種笑話了院長我要說的是不要再有這種surpriseno surprise是一個對國人最重要的立場我們非常尊重委員所以我們希望來國會說明我們很早就希望你們來說明了但是民進黨團一直擋著不到你們來說明我現在講一次 院長我只要求一個no surprise"},{"start":9818.453,"end":9843.116,"text":"不要發生這類似這樣的意外大家都知道很難談我們都理解但是不要有這種surprise所以安心讓人民很重要很難談所以沒有到那個點我們真的沒有辦法把那個關鍵講出來所以我現在就要問了我們剛剛很多委員都問過了其實我們只要問三句話第一這個暫時新關稅How long 還有多久"},{"start":9844.315,"end":9850.329,"text":"你們可以做到剛副院長說的九月底美國財政部長說的十月底可以確定這樣的時程嗎"},{"start":9852.062,"end":9874.281,"text":"我們希望越快越好越快越好的確我們在持續推進中一到兩個月之內應該會大勢抵地我們持續推進中那我們也表達了三項目標那希望越快越好那當然這取決於雙方不過我們會全力努力那真正關鍵的因素我剛剛有跟委員讓我說明完就是有關於是半導體供應鏈以及232相關的關稅"},{"start":9876.723,"end":9892.652,"text":"那真的在我們完成對等關稅談判當中因為我國的逆差的特殊性九成來自這些項目所以美方的政策還在變動中所以美方也表達希望多一點時間雙方來洽談所以雙方正在做這樣的努力當中"},{"start":9895.834,"end":9925.124,"text":"的確有聯合聲明那如果我們達成協議那因為各國達成協議的模式那你們都談完了我希望剛剛講那些時辰全部公佈給大家聽那時候你的聯合聲明長什麼樣如果可以的話到時候都一起公佈把所有時辰講出來那是不是我跟委員來報告美方達成協議的模式有公佈聯合聲明的有公佈白宮事實文件很少啦只有很重要的很大的國家才有正式公佈最開心的還有日本韓國還跟川普一起照相呢"},{"start":9925.424,"end":9950.046,"text":"像前幾天就公布了歐盟的聯合聲明但歐盟是在這個8月1號以前就先宣布達成共識所以他達成共識的方式有多遠我想過程我剛剛講了No surprise就好了前面讓大家更清楚知道你的過程第二個我要問的是有多少影響剛剛院長報告的是已經有說了多少廠商現在無薪假可能還有多少的影響"},{"start":9950.686,"end":9953.009,"text":"我想問說對於國內的衝擊什麼時候會知道什麼時候會知道現在正在發生的20加N現在的衝擊評估有了嗎"},{"start":9967.396,"end":9987.584,"text":"我們衝擊評估在4月9號我們已經有公布過了而且有各項產品的衝擊評估包含我們在工業的部分特別提到像工具機 機械這個報告裡面都有了副院長不要浪費我的時間好嗎下一個我想問一下你們的談判代表"},{"start":9988.7,"end":9996.837,"text":"我們現在看到的是台積電董事長還有黃仁勳都見到川普我們的談判代表到底現在在跟誰談啊"},{"start":9998.426,"end":10023.537,"text":"我们过去几个月我们的谈判对口是美国贸易代表署以及商务部那的确美方我们在谈判最终必须进行总结会议但美方的总结会议的形式也有它不同的设定美方总结会议的形式美方会提出它的一个建议方案会做考量我方也会就这个形式来现在的问题就是可能还有下一个"},{"start":10024.517,"end":10040.938,"text":"我們現在USDR給我們一直以來的所謂的貿易障礙也就是剛剛院長說的他們一直要台灣放寬的叫做相關食安的標準以及開放市場最重要要投資美國這個是USDR長期以來對台灣的所謂的"},{"start":10043.161,"end":10054.816,"text":"貿易障礙就是他們美方長期每一年會定期公佈各國的貿易障礙對 這些我要問的是台灣的談判紅線在哪裡我們看到日本講得很清楚汽車就是他的談判紅線"},{"start":10057.66,"end":10080.735,"text":"韓國牛肉食安就是他的談判紅線我想問一下院長我們的談判紅線是良食安全國民健康就是我們的原則是所以具體的內容呢具體跟美方來談判但是一個基改食品校園會不會放委員我們在現在在談判過程當中那我就念給大家聽吧"},{"start":10081.806,"end":10107.884,"text":"三十月零以上的美牛進口黃牛症的疑慮我們相關的牛血產品跟牛脂違反國際標準這是他們說我們的但我們長期以來不讓這些進入所謂的校園跟軍隊另外就是馬鈴薯還有所謂的萊劑這些都是我們長期以來被美國認為的貿易障礙這一次他有沒有要求把這些放寬"},{"start":10108.817,"end":10123.565,"text":"跟委員報告的確各國都會面對美國希望關稅非關稅貿易障礙的這些談判的範圍我要說的是喔院長食品安全這件事情就是讓人民知道委員是不是讓我可以回答"},{"start":10125.359,"end":10141.156,"text":"因為這些範圍的確是會在談但是我方一定是以這個糧食安全 國民健康為原則然後依據科學的依據然後國民健康 糧食安全"},{"start":10141.716,"end":10145.779,"text":"是我們的原則那我們希望我們在既有的既有的報告委員你剛說的你剛說的那幾項都是"},{"start":10157.768,"end":10186.789,"text":"美方跟我國以及其他各國創新一來的一些公開的貿易障礙只是委員我說一句良心話我們在這裡討論這個事情並無助於談判的進行但是我要說的是這是人民會關心的事這是人民最關心的為什麼長期以來變成貿易障礙就是因為台灣人民沒有辦法接受在食品上面標示不明我們不知道我們吃了什麼所以我們只要做清楚的標示"},{"start":10187.729,"end":10198.996,"text":"這長期被美國認為我們做貿易限制這其實是你要去爭取的國民健康 管理制度 糧食安全這些都是我們談判的原則他會長期成為貿易障礙就是因為國內有這樣的壓力"},{"start":10203.278,"end":10226.353,"text":"我要說的是蘇院長你要把我們的壓力當成你談判的助力而不是一味的把這個東西當成說我要拿去交換的東西我要說的是這應該是你談判的助力這是國內民眾對這件食品安全最基本的要求也是如果今天美國真的要我們放什麼我們要知道我們換到了什麼"},{"start":10226.873,"end":10250.092,"text":"謝謝委員的建議我剛剛有重申我們的談判原則那所有談判的結果我們最後一定送大院來審議現在美中貿易談判延到了90天所以我們會不會是因為這樣美國要先跟中國談然後再來跟台灣談美中談判延到11月初那我們會不會也因為這樣被耽擱了"},{"start":10251.733,"end":10259.725,"text":"美方的考量我沒有辦法來代表美方說明你覺得他會不會像WTO一樣就是中國先台灣再來理台灣"},{"start":10260.868,"end":10290.24,"text":"我們就是全力以赴院長這是我很擔心的地方美國人可能會拿台灣作為所謂的美中貿易談判裡面最大的棋子我相信我們也一定是一個很重要的棋子第二個部分是他可能拿著我們跟中國談不管是軍事或經濟貿易另外也可能用我們去犧牲掉讓他去換取中國的讓步這一點在台灣我們身為民意代表立場我們必須要很鄭重的跟"},{"start":10290.94,"end":10311.626,"text":"兩位說我覺得國人非常在意這件事我們是一個主權國家的立場跟美國進行談判但美國多方的考量他考慮其他的因素這並非我們能夠去主導去影響的但我是希望說對台灣能夠有更合理更好的一個稅率沒錯最後一個問題是在8月23號我們看到一個瘋傳媒的獨家報導"},{"start":10313.146,"end":10341.292,"text":"說台灣的關稅籌碼出爐了而且經濟部的內部資料消息流出來說我們保證市場全面開放台灣企業四年要投資兩千五百億然後我們採購四年之內要投資一千三百億然後還有十年要三千億然後最後我們還要給他四千億的金融服務支持所以院長我看到副院長還是貿易代表有否認這個消息空穴來風還是確有其事"},{"start":10342.033,"end":10349.769,"text":"這些消息未向經紀部查證也未向行政院經貿辦公室查證但是有沒有全面開放市場"},{"start":10350.578,"end":10379.751,"text":"那裡面也有一些資訊跟談判情形有所出入不過因為現在談判還在繼續進行當中那是不是請容我們無法一一的向大院做非常詳細的報告我們也是為了維護最後談判的好的一個結果院長 投資美國是不可擋我看全世界不管是日本 韓國 歐盟都一樣所以投資美國有兩種方法一個是民間 一個是國家國家對美採購增加我相信這個也大家都支持軍購的部分"},{"start":10380.305,"end":10393.563,"text":"另外一個是剛剛講不管買美國米買什麼能夠增加你談判的籌碼我相信大部分的國人也可以接受現在的重點是如果我們要大幅投資美國你們接下來上次說的"},{"start":10395.245,"end":10415.803,"text":"總統說要成立主權基金會不會是你們投資美國的一個方法這個跟投資美國不投資美國完全無關不會拿來作為投資有關美國投資成為我們的一個工具我們有能力往這個方向去想而且這要非常慎重的逐步進行絕非再一朝一夕一年兩年的事情謝謝黃委員"},{"start":10423.572,"end":10445.55,"text":"謝謝卓院長下一位我們請羅美玲委員質詢謝謝主席有請卓院長還有鄭副院長請卓院長 鄭副院長備詢"},{"start":10459.744,"end":10462.901,"text":"路文豪院長好副院長午安"},{"start":10463.898,"end":10493.218,"text":"虽然说20%的台美关税在8月7号的时候就已经生效了可是基本上这是一个暂时性的税率整个谈判过程都还在进行当中刚刚副院长或是之前我有听到美方这边的报道说也许9月份或10月份我们就会有一个最终的结果谈判团队也一直强调说我们会努力来争取不叠加甚至比20%还要低的税率"},{"start":10493.958,"end":10520.911,"text":"既然這是一個還在進行當中的談判基於國際談判的原則都會簽署保密協議要等到整個談判有了最後的結果我們才能夠公布談判的細節可是我們看到在野的立委他根本是不顧國際談判的規範然後甚至誣導民眾說這整個談判其實是一個黑箱的作業要求公開談判的內容"},{"start":10522.071,"end":10546.719,"text":"那除了今天的院會那本席呢發現在這之前有好幾個委員會其實已經開過超過十場以上的這個安排了這十場以上的這個相關的這個議程了所以要求這個談判團隊呢來做備詢所以委員會問不夠今天在院會還要再來加開再來詢問所以本席想請教啊這個就是一個非常普遍的一個問題我想請教院長副院長"},{"start":10547.279,"end":10553.973,"text":"如果我們片面公開這相關的細節的話對於我們這次或未來的國際談判會有什麼樣不利的影響"},{"start":10554.838,"end":10578.501,"text":"談判的壓力我請副院長來答覆謝謝羅委員來還原事實上我們在歷次的實體談判之後都有發布新聞稿各部委員都到委員會備詢的確現在因為有時間差因為許多國家達成協議我方是還沒達成協議先從32降到20所以現在我們大家看到各國公佈的談判條件是因為他們跟美方達成協議"},{"start":10579.602,"end":10595.608,"text":"所以達成協議之後他們會由美方雙方公布聯合聲明來羅列相關談判條件或由白宮來公布Faith Sheet事實文件來公布這個談判條件或是由川普總統本人宣布這個協議的相關的重點內容"},{"start":10596.528,"end":10611.46,"text":"所以我們看到各國公布這些內容都是在達成協議之後比較完整的說明這個裡面涉及的所有的談判條件所以我方現在因為還在談判中我們現在的稅率是一個階段性的稅率"},{"start":10612.14,"end":10632.835,"text":"所以屆時如果達成協議之後呢雙方也會先來公布相關的談判條件那之後完成了協議的簽署那麼我們依照條約締結法的這個第八條條約簽署之後呢報行政院就會來送國會來進行審議我想我們一切都是依照條約締結法依法來進行"},{"start":10635.237,"end":10662.997,"text":"那這個過程的確我們現在還在繼續談判中但我們也了解產業社會需要更清楚的資訊所以我們也願意善盡說明的責任那不管是來大院或是記者會或是我們已經跟產業界有許多的座談持續的來進行說明讓大家更了解我們在這個MFN加對等關稅20%受到的衝擊裡面政府可以來給予什麼樣的支持"},{"start":10663.579,"end":10680.278,"text":"尤其針對裡面衝擊比較大的像工具機 機械或蝴蝶籃 鬼頭刀等等這些衝擊較大而且對於競爭國而言相對它的稅率對競爭國產生比較競爭劣勢的特定的產業我想院長也有特地安排行程面對面的來聽取"},{"start":10681.741,"end":10698.191,"text":"挺聽業者的聲音那我們行政院會再給予特別的支持我想在這個過程當中我們全力支持但是我們談判團隊包含跨部會在內我們一定全力努力持續以越快速度越好來持續推進談判爭取最後的總結會議來完成這個協議"},{"start":10701.354,"end":10724.508,"text":"所以我們其實一直都是按照這個國際規範在走一定要等一定有一個定案之後我們才能夠公開相關的細節我想全世界都是如此那有沒有哪個國家的這個國會議員會在談判當中一再要求這個行政團隊談判團隊把這個細節公開目前有嗎 目前看起來好像是沒有就只有台灣這麼做對不對"},{"start":10725.448,"end":10746.831,"text":"美國這次跟各國談判都簽有保密協議所以大家都很清楚這是不能夠說的這個協議其實也是規範就是在談判過程當中相關的文件因為有許多的談判的議題其實在磋商中也許有共識但是最後在整體總結的時候會在整體進行最後的定案"},{"start":10747.392,"end":10766.779,"text":"那所以的確各國也都依照國際談判的慣例跟這個保密的協議相關在進行但是我們為了尊重大院也在大院機密會議的安排底下來出示相關的保密的會議那不過的確因為現在許多國家達成協議大家看到相關的談判條件也會想要了解我方"},{"start":10767.479,"end":10777.726,"text":"談判的情形我們充分的理解社會需要資訊國會需要資訊所以我們行政院在所有可能的範圍能夠公開說明的我們一定善盡說明的責任"},{"start":10778.876,"end":10802.962,"text":"好的 謝謝副院長的這個說明那再來就是說剛剛也有委員在關心就是前兩天有這個媒體以獨家報導的這個方式報導裡面特別還提到說是收到經濟部內部的資訊所以裡面還提及了談判的過程美國要求我方取消哪些商品品項的關稅甚至有提到我方對美投資方面的承諾等等"},{"start":10803.682,"end":10831.948,"text":"雖然後來我們行政院經貿工作小組有澄清說其實這是不實的報導也沒有跟我們這裡做過求證裡面的項目跟談判的內容是有所出入的可是媒體所提到的經濟部內部所提供的資訊到目前為止已經事情過了兩天了我們行政單位到底有沒有去了解是不是就是從經濟部裡面流出來的呢有了解過嗎"},{"start":10834.524,"end":10852.219,"text":"跟委員報告那經濟部沒有辦法掌握那麼完全全面的資料那所以這個報導其實是不確實的確實可是他特別有提到是經濟部內部流出來的這個管道到底是誰是哪個單位這邊有去了解過嗎"},{"start":10853.18,"end":10875.349,"text":"是 我們也在瞭解中還在瞭解當中所以到目前還不是很清楚到底怎麼回事但是很確實 很確定的是說我們經濟部沒有辦法掌握那麼全面的資料像委員來補充說明談判小組除了我跟楊政委之外其實包含了跨部會經濟部 農業部 衛福部 財政部等等還有外交部 國安會等等許多的部會"},{"start":10876.209,"end":10894.587,"text":"那談判的範疇包含關稅非關稅貿易障礙貿易變節化經濟安全採購投資等等等等所以其實各部會參與各部會的部分那目前看我們當天看到這個新聞我們有瞭解行政院經貿辦經濟部等各部會都沒有收到查證"},{"start":10895.7,"end":10910.673,"text":"所以我想這裡面有些數字並不是向部會查證之後來做報導所以裡面也有一些資訊跟談判的情形有所出入我們還是希望說國人給予我們一些時間讓我們加速談判"},{"start":10911.394,"end":10930.72,"text":"那談判我們一旦跟美方達成協議我們一定會先公佈所有談判的內容跟細節那這個過程我們必須做一定的這樣的一個期待是希望說有一些過度的揭露是不是可能最終會影響我們談判雙方條件的磋商"},{"start":10931.56,"end":10959.45,"text":"像後續我們要談判相關的供應鏈的合作232的相關關稅然後如果達成共識希望對等關稅能夠再降那這些談判桌上可能的條件現在如果過度的揭露是不是也會成為我們未來談判的變數我想這一點還要請大院跟社會能夠理解那我們一定在一旦有共識跟達成協議的時候我們一定會完整的提供說明向社會也會將協議送大院來審議"},{"start":10960.43,"end":10970.564,"text":"也會一併提出衝擊影響評估我再請問副院長如果到時查出來真的是從經濟部裡面揭露出來的話那會有懲處嗎 請問"},{"start":10974.813,"end":10992.668,"text":"譬如說它裡面提供目前為止都說裡面的資訊其實是有跟原本談判的內容其實是有出入的表示說萬一如果說真的是從經濟部裡面洩露出來的這會不會是說造成人心不安的一個"},{"start":10994.535,"end":11008.776,"text":"報告委員任何公務員從事國家公務的行為都有一定的準則跟規範公務員服務法有任何違法的那我們就依法來處理但我認為跟媒體的溝通我們要做得更確實"},{"start":11009.958,"end":11027.86,"text":"因為如果平常建立媒體有這種查證的程序的話很多的誤會就不會發生所以我也要求各部會以後加強跟媒體各項聯絡跟服務我們用最真實的面貌來向國人來論述我們所有的施政結果"},{"start":11028.596,"end":11043.737,"text":"OK 好了解那剛剛副院長還有提到就是說未來我們關稅的協議的文本呢將會送到這個立法院來做審議那行政單位會不會擔心就是說立法院到時會推翻原定的這個協議的內容有沒有可能"},{"start":11044.258,"end":11072.433,"text":"那當然不是說協議的內容不能夠提出意見萬一在野陣營未反對而反對難道我們還要跟美國重新來談判嗎有可能嗎 美國會理會台灣嗎現在請教會不會擔心是 謝謝委員的問題大院在2015年已經訂有這個條約締結法那我想貴我兩院就依條約締結法相關的法律規範來進行那條約締結法第三條有對條約有所定義"},{"start":11073.272,"end":11087.082,"text":"裡面涉及國防外交財政經濟重要事項都是稱為條約尤其如果未來在關稅的部分有所變動的話關稅也有涉及相關關稅的法律這些我們都會依照法律來進行"},{"start":11087.967,"end":11105.915,"text":"那條約締結法第八條也清楚的規範這個條約簽署之後會要送國會來這個審議那當然第十條也有相關國會審議相關的條文我想這些法律都可以供委員這邊來參考那不過這一次的談判我要強調的是它跟過去傳統的經貿談判不一樣"},{"start":11107.526,"end":11126.905,"text":"過去傳統經貿盤可能歷時多年但是這一次是在幾個月內美國跟所有國家一起進行談判那談判必須有這個各個範疇關稅費關稅貿易障礙貿易變節化經濟安全等等投資等等各項議題也有相關對等貿易協議的各項的條文要逐條的磋商"},{"start":11127.465,"end":11144.72,"text":"這些技術性磋商完了之後我們同時跟貿易代表組磋商完我們要跟商務部來進行未來供應鏈232的討論來進行一個總結的會議那最後總結的會議也要看美方他怎麼樣來安排這個形式來進行所以我想這個談判跟過去的經貿談判"},{"start":11145.629,"end":11157.436,"text":"的形式是有所不同的屆時我們再請國會來這個云與整體的考量但是我們也會善盡行政院向國會報告以及提供衝擊影響評估並把所有的資訊送交國會來審議的責任"},{"start":11159.181,"end":11184.618,"text":"OK 好 謝謝那也是要等到最終可能九月底十月以後的事情了一切等談判結束前後我剛剛所提的這個時程是參考美國財政部長BesantMr.Besant他的一個說法但是以我方的立場當然是我們希望能夠越快越好不過的確談判有時候取決於雙方例如說最後總結性會議的安排"},{"start":11185.058,"end":11190.309,"text":"我們也必須要跟美方來進行就形式的討論所以我想我們就是全力朝這個目標來推進"},{"start":11191.909,"end":11219.028,"text":"OK好 最後一個問題我想請教的就是說我們為了因應美國對等關稅帶來的這個產業的衝擊那經濟部呢他有提了四大方向就是包含用AI來降成本去美國設這個產業園區鼓勵業者生耕利基市場還有協助升級轉型等等那本是想請教的去美國設產業園區這個部分其實也就是我們談判的一個很重要的一個項目跟籌碼之一嘛對不對因為我們既然已經提出來了"},{"start":11219.949,"end":11245.462,"text":"其實外界都關心說那為什麼台美還沒達成協議其實就是我們一再的說明因為我們的逆差結構有九成來自半導體ICT那這個在232調查項目中那將這個對等關稅跟232並談的像日韓歐盟美方也清楚的跟我們表達他們涉及的232項目相對比我們單純他們也許是汽車也許是鋼品等等等等"},{"start":11245.862,"end":11260.48,"text":"那我方是聚焦在半導體跟ICT那這個部分的232關稅在美方的政策屬於未定他們的稅率政策還在變動中所以雙方必須就供應鏈合作跟232後續我們也希望爭取優惠一併討論"},{"start":11261.921,"end":11282.886,"text":"所以我們的確也正在跟我們的高科技業者座談來瞭解大家的想法整合大家的共識我們希望能夠透過後續的談判能夠雙方台美供應鏈有一個好的合作然後爭取232的優惠一旦在這個部分達成共識我們同時能夠進入總結會議爭取再降對等關稅並且不疊加"},{"start":11283.464,"end":11307.679,"text":"所以這裡面核心的議題的確也是供應鏈的我們在國際尤其在美國擴大的佈局那我想台美的高科技產業過去長期是互補的美國在創新研發非常的強台灣是我們的製造非常的強所以如果我們的製造在美國能夠來結合他們當地的技術研發能力市場跟人才我想也是我們一個有利的一個國際佈局"},{"start":11308.76,"end":11323.989,"text":"所以未來的談判應該要朝向雙方互補互利合作的方式來深入討論這個供應鏈合作的佈局那我方高科技產業的發展一個很重要的經驗也是來自於我們產業園區 科學園區政府跟產業界協力合作的模式"},{"start":11324.489,"end":11349.806,"text":"所以這一次除了企業如果赴美投資如果政府未來也能夠協助我們落地的企業能夠打造一個更好的投資環境公平的環境我們也透過這樣的產業聚落的方式為他們爭取更好的在美國給予的協助跟條件讓他們能夠得到更好的基礎建設然後能夠更好的一個投資優惠的環境我想對我們的產業的國際布局也是有利的"},{"start":11350.146,"end":11363.371,"text":"所以這個都在我們後續的談判範疇當中所以這個去美國社產業園區就是我們的籌碼之一當然剛才副院長講得非常的清楚可能還是以高科技產業到那裡去做投資好"},{"start":11382.145,"end":11389.35,"text":"謝謝羅委員 謝謝左院長還有副院長下一位請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":11416.571,"end":11439.6,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進列席的政府機關首長官員會長 工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請卓院長以及國發會劉主委和財政部莊部長卓院長還有劉主委還有莊副主委副主委今天請假那今天是副主委副主委代理"},{"start":11447.714,"end":11471.354,"text":"總委員好院長好部長好副主委好我的標題是產業退稅有需求調配勞力有方法緩對等關稅衝擊政府應盡速執行好請教院長外傳我們財經首長都留任顯然他們的表現得到肯定院長是不是支持會做事的格遠"},{"start":11472.298,"end":11500.874,"text":"我需要會做事是的不只是肯定而且是需要而且會支持很好來我們來看一下就在一個星期前我上次問到了還稅給中小企業財政部主動出擊還記得嗎8月12號我請教過院長說這些受到美國關稅影響他的市場是因為是美國的他受到的關稅衝擊我們把他過去這個產業進口在台灣的關稅我們退還給他院長是全力支持嗎"},{"start":11502.134,"end":11528.662,"text":"謝謝委員當地有提出這樣的建議來好 那麼財政部也主動出席了嘛對不對也開始去進行規劃了是不是 部長是 跟委員報告我們知道委員很關切這個問題我們也跟經濟部來聯繫對於相關這樣因為受到美國對等關稅政策影響而受到衝擊的產業以及廠商它的一個狀況那以什麼樣的方式來給他們支持好 了解好 那我現在也要考一考我們國發會這是副主委"},{"start":11529.352,"end":11552.837,"text":"其實我們要做這個政策呢國發業很重要你看我們要精準的找到受衝擊的企業首先這個產業他應該是以美國市場為主剛剛就說了而且呢他在他的主要競爭對手關稅又相對比我們低比如說不是所有的企業出口企業都是我們的對象是不是這樣我要找出他出口市場是美國為主的其次我們要把他跟"},{"start":11555.004,"end":11576.083,"text":"他的主要對手 美國對他的關稅是如何副主委是不是這樣子我們要盤點哪些產業受衝擊是不是應該從這兩個方法目前我們所有對受衝擊產業的一些支持其實基本上都是對著剛剛委員說的好 那我們來看一下舉例來講大家都說工具機 手工具 水五金 重電跟塑膠製品那我們來看一下"},{"start":11576.784,"end":11585.751,"text":"工具機我們對美關稅24%我們的主要對手德國、日本、韓國都是15%顯然的工具機受到嚴重衝擊卓院長是不是這樣"},{"start":11587.206,"end":11610.748,"text":"這個在我們評估當中確實是把它列為衝擊性大的產業另外我們來看一下手工具我們雖然是23.3但是越南跟我們一樣主要競爭對手中國比我們還高可能手工具沒那麼嚴重再來看水五金我們是22.6越南也是22.6中國也是比我們高或許水五金的壓力沒那麼大重電我們是22越南是15中國是57比我們高一個比我們低我們可能有影響"},{"start":11611.448,"end":11638.192,"text":"塑膠製品我們的主要競爭對手是中國59可是墨西哥跟我們差不多所以從這樣的看法來看是不是像工具機這樣的產業是我們優先要幫助的對象對尤其是如果高階的可能我們的競爭力會更弱一點如果中階的我們還有個很好的競爭力如果我們對手是德國日本以外的國家的話我相信我們的產品優越性一定是可以有辦法跟他競爭的"},{"start":11638.8,"end":11649.011,"text":"好 謝謝副主委考試過關我們請經濟部次長來地補接下來我們要問到一下沖退原料稅的政府分工副主委可以請為 我們請次長好"},{"start":11653.476,"end":11681.892,"text":"那麼莊部長之前我們要財政部來處理這個事情但是報告院長前面要有產業別要有產發署先告訴我們說是哪些產業受到影響然後這些產業要國貿署去抓出說他這幾年來銷售美國的需求量是多少然後鎖定這些廠商之後以公司別我們再請財政部官務署去計算這個公司為單位他過去"},{"start":11682.952,"end":11709.959,"text":"這三年五年甚至十年台灣的政府跟他扣了多少進口關稅是不是用這個方式才能夠趕快的把這個事情執行莊部長是不是這樣委員報告就是說對於受影響的廠商確實是如剛剛產業署跟國貿署我們會把他會提資料給我們至於是不是從這個關稅的部分來退或者是以其他補助或支持方案來做那這個部分我們後續會再來做處理"},{"start":11710.97,"end":11739.054,"text":"那現在進入到哪裡了是不是已經調查出來了這個部分跟委員報告一下我們在8月21號已經把相關的這些資訊已經給財政部那我想財政部他們現在正在核算當中總院長8月21號求在財政部這邊了財政部也說要等到大院我們行政院做出最後的決定所以請院長趕快決定你說權力支持資料在財政部這邊是不是趕快可以核定這樣的一個出口退稅的一個"},{"start":11740.515,"end":11755.525,"text":"請莊部長能夠請同仁能夠儘速的詳實的來將內容與檢查如果符合到所有的條件規則標準的話那行政院依照支持產業的這樣的原則跟委員日前的建議我們全盤的來考量實施"},{"start":11756.169,"end":11780.524,"text":"好 謝謝 那麼莊部長請回我現在請農業部陳部長好 那麼繼續 卓院長我們剛剛說沖退原料稅以製造業為對象我們看到這個圖很清楚其實製造業大概在這一波受到衝擊最大的除了受到美國關稅影響我們是不是還可以看到還會造成它減班勞動力的顯著我們來看一下我們看到報紙說 美對台課20%的關稅中部產業由減單 減班 裁員"},{"start":11784.326,"end":11797.261,"text":"那這裡訂單下滑 減班休息的包括電子資訊產業 運輸工具包括機械 包括鋼鐵 金屬經濟部 次長是不是這樣子這些產業是可能會遇到減班休息的衝擊"},{"start":11800.811,"end":11825.358,"text":"這種情況之下我要跟院長說遇到的減班衝擊其實勞動部長要起來的其實我想他坐在台下我要誇獎他比較不會尷尬製造業減班休息勞工生計怎麼辦我們看到了如果是本土勞工勞動部推出了強化雇用安定措施這也是過去疫情期間我們所說到的這幾個產業如果說原來的本土勞工他如果是月領4萬"},{"start":11826.838,"end":11846.076,"text":"因為呢 減班休息他只能領最低工資兩萬八千五百九但是他這就念了薪資差額兩萬八跟四萬這差額的一萬二勞動部呢用目前的就安定了給他七成的補貼他可以補多少一萬二的七成就是八千四院長支持勞動部這樣做吧"},{"start":11846.806,"end":11875.072,"text":"是勞動部一直這樣對勞工安定就業一貫有的方式那我希望他徹底的去執行是的 為什麼我沒有請勞動部長來起來因為他都做好了 都做對了所以就不勞他上來了好 但是外籍廠工沒有這個優待外籍廠工如果減班休息他最多就是領28590元經濟部是不是這樣子那這樣會什麼情況呢這些外籍的移工廠工他可能會怎樣"},{"start":11876.428,"end":11898.853,"text":"因為他來台灣就要賺錢嘛他賺不到4萬塊賺不到3萬5只能領2萬8他就另外找地方去嘛好那另一方面這個勞動力他出現了一個不穩定但是反過來看我們看看移工會跟寶桃串聯繞跑打工院長你知道什麼是寶桃嗎部長寶釋桃的人寶釋桃的人寶釋桃的人寶釋桃的人寶釋桃的人寶釋桃的人"},{"start":11903.584,"end":11924.934,"text":"有時候一些失聯的移工他會透過特定的人然後去安排他做一些事情 你說的失聯的移工就是工廠 他進來工廠他不愛做啦他就漏跑啦 老闆把這些人扣扣的 現在中部南島在採茶他就去搬茶葉 茶葉搬完之後他就要對他做詩規對他採紮紅來"},{"start":11928.732,"end":11946.828,"text":"院長知道吧農務的這些移工它有它的季節性跟收產的這個我們看到過去在2025年就是今年移工一到機場就整個被接走另外有的是怎樣在2018年甚至發生的整個都不見了好 那我們來看一下可是這些移工投入的這些產業"},{"start":11948.109,"end":11961.782,"text":"不只是農業可是農業有沒有需求部長你們可以告訴我們院長我們農業目前雖然有農業移工的作為但是實質上使用的移工都是合法引進的嗎"},{"start":11963.351,"end":11987.992,"text":"我跟委員報告就是謝謝勞動部的一個協助我們農業的移工大概有兩萬名然後合法的移工進來就是合配有兩萬名大概現在目前用了一萬六千多名那你這個農業部門只有用合法的移工嗎不可諱言的還有部分的這些失聯的移工投入到農業領域做這些季節性的這些打工其實沒有失聯的移工也在打黑工啦"},{"start":11988.871,"end":12017.972,"text":"我們屏東農村喔 很多工廠喔他移工喔 下班之後呢 他要去打工啦我們平常喔 在吃米啦米是歐 米農啦 米農都要摘去五六點還沒停工 米多兩兩就要去歐啦都是附近工廠 種植附近工廠的移工喔他們就要去五點五就去歐啊歐到七點五 早上吃菜 回去上班有的是 阿妹啊 下班後 再來拍工有的是 白天禮拜 再來拍工農業部部長 你知道這個情況嗎"},{"start":12020.268,"end":12040.993,"text":"為什麼這個情況一直存在著因為有需要我們往下看其實不只是災後的復原我們還往下看其實現在談的是全職轉廠跟就近兼差其實依照目前我們的勞動法令我這個廠商合法引進的移工只能夠使用我不能說我現在工廠停班休息 減班休息我就給別人用"},{"start":12042.942,"end":12061.291,"text":"縣長 你知道我不能因為我的產業我現在訂單少了嘛我引進的移工不適途者嘛我就稍後把人家去加班可以嗎 不可以產業是不可以的 為什麼因為你全職移轉未來會成什麼情況等到我訂單回來了我就要人借 覺得借的回來他就亂講了嘛"},{"start":12062.572,"end":12072.454,"text":"所以目前我們工業部門 製造部門最擔心什麼我減單休息之後 減班休息之後我的移工跑掉了等到我的訂單回來了我還要訂車"},{"start":12074.881,"end":12098.536,"text":"當場的時候 我們當然也要給他但是這裡已經漏跑了這個移工他就轉入黑市變成是台灣我們撒不掉 摸不掉的一個移工這是我們不希望的所以怎麼做呢其實如果說不要讓他整場移轉讓他就近兼差他就是附近的農場他沒上班的時間 他去打工我先告一個 農家博定你覺得這樣可以嗎"},{"start":12099.918,"end":12128.375,"text":"我們曾經就這個議題就正常的曾經問了幾個企業就是他們週休二是希望他們的員工休息如果他來打工的時候他們也擔心他們打工的時候如果太累的時候第二天上班可能會精神不濟這第一個第二個部分就是說如果要合法去做這些休息的話那相對的相關的規定也要做修正很好就是後面如果要合法的話就規定要修正為什麼我覺得農業部門可以這樣來做呢"},{"start":12128.902,"end":12141.863,"text":"因為他不是full time不是每天8小時的他是什麼 藍山的工程你一天來我一小時 兩小時 累輸加班不然就是你一星期你不出去玩你來我們家幫我們倒Q一些做sheet"},{"start":12142.692,"end":12165.427,"text":"因為農場的工作是零工有季節性有小規模有地點分散他很難申請完整的像工廠工人這樣的農業移工來做所以這種情況在我們往下看所以如果原僱主受到關稅衝擊影響他減班休息你與其讓這些移工跑掉跑去其他沒有資格引進移工的工廠做非法的工作全職的移轉"},{"start":12166.167,"end":12181.392,"text":"不如你是不是讓他本來週休兩天 週工作五天他現在週工作兩天另外的三天他可以透過一些機制到附近的農盲去幫忙院長你覺得這樣的方法有沒有一個可以考慮的評估"},{"start":12183.894,"end":12202.834,"text":"那個跟周委員報告因為確實這個移工如果要跨雇主或跨業來去工作那尤其是他本身他不是一個合意的解約的狀況的話這涉及到的制度上面的面向就比較因為勞動部現在我要打斷就是勞動部他的思維還是製造業工業的思維"},{"start":12204.055,"end":12222.592,"text":"農業要請全職的移工的需求量不高除非你是農場 牧場我起五月 我起第二月我整天一年三八六十五天都需要很多是季節性的所以為什麼農業移工不太好用但是這種兼差來打工的很好他有沒有轉移雇主 沒有雇主還是原來工廠的雇主"},{"start":12223.032,"end":12248.708,"text":"雇主同意之下他到鄰近的去兼差打工這個是有討論空間的而且如果你不給他一個合法的管道他就只能繞跑直接去打黑工這反而不是我們樂見的我現在已經請農業部去評估是不是可以用農會來出面農會過去是扮演農業移工的引進單位但是農會不好用但是如果你說原雇主因為減班休息他的移工他還是要大工手"},{"start":12249.588,"end":12263.591,"text":"吃土雞啊所有的負擔都工廠來負擔他現在去把旁邊的農場做一些試圖是不是這裡的行政成本你這裡農場你要做分拓要什麼人來做農民沒辦法做行政要從農會來協助這裡的行政環境把這裡的工廠因為營業到釋出的這裡流動熱他要分拓的保險費要分拓的大貨吃的飯這個你構築你不是新的構築你建的這個農場你來分拓農會來衝動"},{"start":12280.243,"end":12303.089,"text":"農業部如果這個方法你們有沒有把握可以做到把這些停班 減班休息的工廠移工在他們休息的期間讓農業部門來做適當的使用你們有沒有辦法做好管理我跟委員報告現在農會的部分就有就有從事我們農業部門那是全職的農業移工 沒好運啦"},{"start":12304.892,"end":12307.015,"text":"所以你們要很清楚所以我告訴院長最後我告訴你這問題這些法令是勞動部遇到的救護法的規範"},{"start":12322.435,"end":12346.787,"text":"他是原則禁止例外許可例外許可要行政部門開放再往下看全職移工沒有僱主轉換的問題只是原僱主同意他的移工去兼工兼差往下看那麼救福法的第7條這些條件都是可以去強化的所以最後的結論請院長承諾我們針對有需求的農業部門的需求我們用方法讓這些受產業衝擊的"},{"start":12348.408,"end":12359.251,"text":"移工可以趕快的去執行院長可不可以給個承諾來研究辦理謝謝總委員謝謝卓院長下一位請羅志強委員質詢"},{"start":12382.452,"end":12407.475,"text":"主席有請院長請卓院長備詢務委員好請教院長你知道在台灣第一個拋出用零關稅來回應美國對等關稅風暴的官員是誰嗎 第一個"},{"start":12409.207,"end":12437.84,"text":"拋不出零關稅零關稅當時我們提出第一個提出來是誰啦很多人都有講過第一個嘛在會議當中第一個啦我說公開提出來第一個我不曉得委員聽到的是什麼時間就是賴清德總統啦我們是在討論當中一年4月6號賴清德總統對於美國的對等關稅他說他有對策就是要台美從零關稅開始談起他說他第一個丟出來的這公開的場合丟出來"},{"start":12439.396,"end":12453.212,"text":"當時立刻引發農民團體抗議你還記得那個時候你是不是邀請了包括我在內的三黨的黨團幹部來會談記得嗎是我想請問你在會中對我們保證了什麼事情你還記不記得"},{"start":12454.363,"end":12478.965,"text":"我們有一些敏感的品項我們不會傷害到我們的產業尤其對農民 漁民我們會列為優先要保護的對象沒錯 你就是跟我承諾一定會保護我們的台灣的農民跟漁民 對不對我想請問這個保證是不是到現在還是有效我們一直用這個原則進行談判那麼接下來我們來看到媒體獨家的報導 風傳媒"},{"start":12481.792,"end":12502.101,"text":"我國8月初回應華府細節保證美國商品全面市場開放其中包括取消小麥 玉米 大豆 乳製品肉類與水產品 蔬菜和水果汽車及相關產品 化學品 化妝品醫療器械 藥品 機械的關稅你有看到這段新聞嗎 有啦"},{"start":12503.101,"end":12531.261,"text":"我們已經針對在其中有相當數據以及沒有查證表示過否認那麼也希望以後我們會加強賴總統有澄清嘛說這跟事實有落差嘛對不對有澄清還有澄清說跟事實有落差啦那我有兩個問題就教啦那賴慶哲總統雖然澄清可是就我自己辦公室台灣的農民漁民還是非常恐慌疑慮你知道為什麼嗎我告訴你為什麼"},{"start":12532.354,"end":12536.395,"text":"賴清德總有四月就先拋出了零關稅所以我要跟"},{"start":12538.067,"end":12563.893,"text":"當時在會議當中我也跟我們的院長就是尊尊的一個建議就是說君無戏言 總統要慎言你拋一個零關稅不清不楚的後面的行政團隊要來收拾就會比較麻煩所以後遺症延續到現在當然你們說這個報導不正確可是人民會恐慌接下來我要請教你這個報導到底哪裡與事實有落差我想要來救教一下"},{"start":12564.713,"end":12578.065,"text":"我剛剛有聽王定宇質詢他問美國整車免關稅有沒有在對美談判的範圍之內剛剛鄭麗君副院長你回答有對不對有談判但是還沒有最後對有在談判的範圍之內你有說有我想請問取消小麥關稅有沒有在你的談判範疇之內"},{"start":12587.775,"end":12615.314,"text":"報告委員你要對我公平一點你對王定宇很乾脆就說有剛剛我回答王委員是說我們在談判過程當中對關稅貿易障礙各項停一下 暫停 時間暫停停一下 沒關係 請繼續其實副院長你剛剛那一套你已經倒帶起碼十次了所以我也沒有時間聽你倒帶了我只問你有沒有"},{"start":12616.005,"end":12642.718,"text":"報告委員有關於關稅的部分我知道你不會回答你那個循環倒帶待會播影片就好了我們就於糧食安全的原則我們來協商但是我必須跟委員說明就是對於關稅的細節如果我們在這邊做完整的說明抱歉時間暫停我們請繼續好不好沒有我要說"},{"start":12644.667,"end":12661.569,"text":"我還是回到院長啦因為你那個倒帶已經到了起碼七、八病我在坐在底下聽了很久這是核心的問題我現在要不然沒關係我不要在這地方卡住沒關係那我想請教那請問院長我就不問你了啦那我們副院長請回副院長請回"},{"start":12662.925,"end":12689.678,"text":"聽軍醫喜話 盧聽醫喜話是不是讓我非常煎藥 跟委員說明沒關係啦 你請回啦時間就不夠嘛你剛剛都不需要嘛 媒體一定會報導我要問院長我要問院長我們會基於糧食安全來跟美方協商你又倒帶一分鐘 兩分鐘時間就結束搞了三分鐘你再跟我講這個好啦 我跟你講沒關係啦我知道你辛苦啦來 院長"},{"start":12691.579,"end":12717.985,"text":"你有辦法保證政府不會取消小麥的關稅嗎報告委員我剛說過國際的談判沒有辦法保證最後條件拿出來的時候才是達成協議你沒有辦法保證不是 我們對台灣的你沒有辦法保證我如果這樣做這樣做這個結論不會不公平嗎王小玉本來我們就是在你就不能保證來 下一題請問你你有辦法保證政府不會取消玉米的關稅"},{"start":12719.915,"end":12736.605,"text":"黃小玉我們都同樣來看這是我們大眾的產品你還是沒辦法保證嘛來 第三個更重要喔你有沒有辦法保證政府不會取消稻米的關稅來 這剛好部長你剛好就上來了我們稻米跟美國一直有一些配額跟其他的會不會保證不會取消稻米的關稅嘛"},{"start":12738.188,"end":12752.851,"text":"我跟委員報告 您剛才講的黃小玉現在的關稅就是零因為她本身零關稅不可怕但是零關稅如果對我們有幫助我全部唸完小麥 玉米 稻米 大豆 滷製品肉類關稅 水產品關稅 蔬菜關稅水果關稅還有這些所謂的你們講的所謂的貿易障礙有沒有在對美談判的範疇之內 有沒有"},{"start":12767.464,"end":12789.624,"text":"我跟委員報告就是美方所提出來的有美方的期待但是我們也有我們的堅持我說嘛有我們的堅持所以針對糧食安全重要的這些品項我當然知道你會開始不肯回答這個問題但是我就是要這邊抗議啦為什麼王定宇講就那麼乾脆就講有羅志祥來問就轉了圈圈十八轉"},{"start":12792.66,"end":12814.575,"text":"黃委員是說我們有沒有談判有 但是還沒有達到最終那你又跟我講有啊黃小玉 滷製品 肉類 水產品 蔬菜水果再問一次 有沒有你剛就講有啊你問我的是小麥會不會影響到我們的農民黃小玉本來就零關稅我不曉得這怎麼回事我要一個一個問嘛我問的是起碼12項啊"},{"start":12819.428,"end":12843.781,"text":"我要問的不只是關稅 包括所謂的你講所謂的貿易的一些障礙啊理解 我們一直說不到最後的細節的時候好啦好啦 謝謝你啦 又轉了半天原則是在的 那幾項原則副院長說的都是核心的價值跟基本的原則來 蕩米影響的人是多少22萬人那請問我們還是要把這當作重中之重啊來 我想請問你"},{"start":12845.56,"end":12866.692,"text":"你可以保證政府過去從來沒有未來也絕對不會拿上述的農產品犧牲農民的權益作為對美關稅談判的籌碼嗎有沒有辦法保證我還是跟委員說明我們在跟美方談判美方有美方的期待我們也有我們的堅持所以在這個期待跟堅持之中就要做一個溝通謝謝部長你回答我都能預期"},{"start":12867.93,"end":12887.869,"text":"總而言之很簡單我想國人都看得到到現在為止你有沒有辦法保證我沒有怪你不能保證院長先抱歉我沒有怪你不能保證但是很明顯的今天你在當時的朝野協商會議對我的保證我到現在開始要懷疑這個效力到底還有沒有維持效力"},{"start":12888.61,"end":12915.472,"text":"那你知道現在兩面現在美國對我國的產品加徵20%關稅你知道已經對讓蘭花 台灣雕 鬼頭刀這些外銷的農漁產品產生很大的危機這一點你總認同 對不對所以我們用農業的產業支持跟金融支持來協助他們如果連產業都要被滅頂的話支持只是什麼只是亡羊補牢的唯末手段農業部是很努力而且確實掌握這些狀況"},{"start":12916.913,"end":12944.194,"text":"蘭花業者直接說20%負擔不起農民業者說漁民說養殖成本要破產利潤快要為零當然我知道現在關稅裡面有難題可是我這邊民意代表反映我們人民的真實的哭聲這農漁民真實的哭聲所以為什麼前面我要一直要問你總要讓大家知道我們政府到底有沒有把這些農漁民的權益包裹上談判桌連這一點"},{"start":12945.919,"end":12960.895,"text":"你們不肯回答但是我跟你講如果你的原則 院長如果你原則一次都不肯回答我也沒話說我們會維護農運民的基本權利你不要跳到另外一題我講的是一個態度問題這態度問題就是如果你對我都不肯回答我也可以理解啦"},{"start":12961.616,"end":12976.662,"text":"但是不是對王定宇你們就回答我跟委員報告你講的蝴蝶蘭其實我們跟蝴蝶蘭在談非常多次他們都非常有信心持續的去進攻美國市場所以我們也非常有信心的去支持他我們的農民很有韌性"},{"start":12977.83,"end":12999.763,"text":"但是如果我們政府沒有當後盾有韌性也很辛苦又以稻米為例美國在跟各國談判都要求包括開放稻米的農產品進口我們稻農也非常憂心台灣稻米受到衝擊如果說零關稅進口有些人就擔心國內的稻米會被全面擊潰這個擔心存在吧"},{"start":13001.39,"end":13022.349,"text":"我跟委員報告我剛才跟你說了就是稻米是我們糧食安全主要的項目他也是小農我都還沒問你談判內容我只問你這個擔心存不存在嘛沒有所有的擔心跟衝擊都是應該的啊商利善就擔心啦他說這是不可逆的破壞啦因為一旦衝擊啊很簡單啊你剛剛都講22.5萬的稻農啊"},{"start":13025.336,"end":13050.093,"text":"影響人民就30萬的升級啊我到現在沒有對你們下什麼指導氣沒對你有什麼我只希望你把這些人的聲音放在心中嘛我們絕對有考量到他的農民的人口數跟他產業的重要性好 我要想請教來 院長川普政府公佈我們台灣的對等關稅稅率是20%加N嘛 對不對比日本跟韓國還要高嘛 15%高嘛"},{"start":13052.447,"end":13076.864,"text":"這種是事實吧 既有的關稅加上20%暫時性是如此 暫時性那日本是15%沒有天花板那舉國震動所以賴總統就說這叫暫時性關稅對不對我們確實是暫時性關稅 現在已經一個月快過去了就算從8月7號20%加N的關稅起效算起有兩個多禮拜了請問這暫時要暫時多久"},{"start":13079.467,"end":13088.473,"text":"剛剛副院長說了這一個月當中八月他引進了三次的視訊會議我們要的是結果啦每次都針對問題你講過程我問結果你講過程結果什麼時候暫時可以結束結果現在還沒有確定發生一個月"},{"start":13094.11,"end":13119.035,"text":"可以嗎照美方的說法他的才是10月底至少那我們希望能夠如果說外面來講說因為那個美國跟中國大陸的那個貿易談判要到11月所以可能把台灣包進去可能要拖到11月後也有可能嘛我認為我們跟中國跟美國的談判反正我要問你一個月還是半年千萬不要跟我講你的暫時暫時要賴清德卸任總不會吧"},{"start":13120.377,"end":13138.609,"text":"絕對不會暫時到賴清德卸任吧看美國有沒有那個耐性我謝謝我們院長給大家安心希望這個20加N不是暫時到賴清德卸任起碼你也給了我一個日期你給不了一年 給不了半年 給不了一個月給一個三年 我這邊還是肯定你"},{"start":13139.451,"end":13165.867,"text":"但是你知道嗎 你知道河側枯魚的成語典故嗎有聽過這個成語典故嗎莊子說的故事他說遇到車側積水一條快渴死的魚然後他跟他討說 給我一升的水救命就莊子說 沒問題沒問題你這是暫時狀態我回去引西江之水來 你就得救了魚當場聽了就怒了等你把水引來 我就變魚乾了"},{"start":13167.295,"end":13182.053,"text":"你懂我說這個故事的意思吧緩不濟急所以我們現在已緩濟急所以非常好非常好所以我跟你講為什麼要問這個戰死的問題就是你們的戰死可能是讓人家暫時停止呼吸到死"},{"start":13183.154,"end":13204.87,"text":"對產業而言是有這個風險的我們也知道盡快確定時間穩定我跟你講當然啦你如果產業一直被扼殺就是有人受害所以拜託腳步加快好不好這個暫時你答應不會再賴清德總統卸任但至少我希望你能更加加緊那最後我要想做一點結論啦我還是恭喜卓榮泰院長留任"},{"start":13207.144,"end":13229.223,"text":"行委員支持跟指教但我其實要恭喜全台大罷免的鐵三角都留任了大罷免32比0大失敗收場柯建民口中去年總統大選一結束就在策劃罷免的鐵三角柯建民說那三個你總知道是哪三個吧就賴清德總統你跟柯建民那我想請問一句話你看這句話誰說的"},{"start":13231.281,"end":13250.177,"text":"雖然蔡英文總統已經辭去黨主席職務但難惜眾怒身為國家最高行政院長我難辭其咎為了肩負執政黨敗選的責任我必須要辭職負責這誰說的這誰說的就是他們幾位說的賴清德總統說的"},{"start":13252.433,"end":13272.361,"text":"2018年九合一大敗賴清德總統當時的院長說他難辭其咎啊 尖挑責任啊然後還要辭職負責啊當時被慰留但是他還是堅持就一個多月後他還是辭職下台我想請問卓議員長這次大罷免大失敗你有沒有覺得你難辭其咎啊"},{"start":13273.547,"end":13300.894,"text":"我已經跟總統表示過我應該負起政治責任那總統他知道政治責任應該那按照總統的慣例的話所以你任期只有剩一個多月囉這個意思嗎 總統當時建立的慣例啊我幫你複習因為我們還目前進行的事情很多他希望能夠把局勢穩定下來所以我們做重要人事的調整謝謝您 謝謝謝謝委員支持 謝謝好 謝謝羅委員 謝謝卓院長"},{"start":13304.679,"end":13331.947,"text":"下一位我們請陳冠廷委員質詢你好我們請院長我們請卓院長備詢"},{"start":13333.715,"end":13359.878,"text":"跟部長 農業部部長農業部部長貝雪陳國元好 院長好 部長好院長我想其實剛才已經有多次確認過了不只在野黨跟執政黨的委員都有確認過最近有媒體他報導說可能會犧牲農業全面開放"},{"start":13360.979,"end":13389.806,"text":"來去換取這個關稅的調整不過總統府跟行政機關都已經予以證實澄清沒有這件事情但是我還是必須要確認一下我們目前的方案是沒有定案的至少在我剛才提到有很多各項的這些農產品但是我最重視的是像包含稻米還有雞跟豬目前都還沒有定案對吧目前雙方都提出一些方案但是"},{"start":13390.734,"end":13404.811,"text":"都還沒有達成協議所以這些方案的內容現在都沒有一樣是說已經到最後那樣達成協議的最後的這個所謂總結會議的這個答案出來所以也沒有到這個所謂的聯合聲明也沒有到總結會議的雙方的達成協議都沒有"},{"start":13406.252,"end":13434.087,"text":"那院長這很好但都在進行當中那剛才副院長也有提到說這個糧食安全國民健康是不能妥協的那特別是糧食安全這件事情特別還有我們中南部雲嘉南地區稻米是我們的主要的產值之一所以我們很希望這一個是很重要重中之重日本的這個經驗也值得我們學習就是這一次他們在稻米上面的相對的讓步造成他們的一些農民的民怨這點我們一定務必"},{"start":13434.787,"end":13460.527,"text":"要放在我們的考量範圍我想現在的台美的貿易這個狀況其實是面臨雙重困局 多重挑戰首先就是農業你要犧牲農業來去成就中小企業嗎還是你要把中小企業的稅率把它降低就是這些關稅降低去保護我們農業還是要用台積電來大量的投資換取兩個產業之間能夠更有競爭力但不管怎麼樣這些都是挑戰"},{"start":13461.388,"end":13489.062,"text":"可是對我們來說特別是總統有提到均衡台灣我們要重視的不是強勢產業而已比如說台積電的表現大家都知道它有它的這個重要的核心技術我們希望它留在台灣但是我們更不能忘記能夠承載著整個國家的糧食安全就在我們中南部就是我們的稻米就是包含我們的雞豬跟稻米這些重要的我們的食物的安全 糧食的安全所以我可以理解我們現在在談判的難處我們現在在談判中"},{"start":13489.562,"end":13516.48,"text":"但是我們必須要對所有的結果首先預先做好準備所以我們不可以等到說到時候協議簽署之後然後我們再倉促的先用發販補助金這種方式用這種最草率的方式我們現在就要把所有的預案先想好到時候才能夠選擇來去對農業最大的保障我想請教一下現在在價格競爭力的嚴重銷售之下我們要怎麼樣系統性的來協助我們的中小企業"},{"start":13517.381,"end":13526.072,"text":"包含你剛剛之前我看跟其他委員們有提到的是擴大信保基金提供融資跟利息補貼等等金融工具之外還有什麼樣的方向"},{"start":13527.574,"end":13554.763,"text":"我們在農業跟工業各有我們先從中小企業特別是跟工具機產業相關的不知道部長有什麼樣的看法中小企業除了我們原來有的中小企業的多元振興方案之外我們對於工業部門我們也會協助它金融的支持還有它一些財政相關稅務的成本的降低也協助它升級轉型等等這個都是在特別條例當中都有名列的"},{"start":13555.736,"end":13579.816,"text":"特別跟院長還有其他相關的官員來提醒就是我們有接到一些其實不只是中部甚至包含嘉南地區有一些工廠他們都有提到說把工具機扣件等關鍵產業的標準與法規的互相認證來提高讓我們這些檢驗合格的產品能夠更快速的進入美國市場不要去增加它重複檢驗的時間跟費用不知道這部分有沒有什麼樣的回應"},{"start":13580.998,"end":13601.434,"text":"好 這個部分我想我們會照委員反映的民情這個部分我們會來處理好 這個盡量是快速因為如果我們在關稅在金額上面如果遇到挑戰的話至少我們在進入市場的速度上面我們至少要能夠快速的去反映再來就是我們必須要把價格競爭轉到品質的競爭"},{"start":13606.658,"end":13629.045,"text":"現在有沒有什麼具體計畫像是技術輔導團直接進駐產業聚落提供客製化的優化服務不是只是提供貸款這方面有沒有什麼樣的相關的推動跟文報告其實現在我們跟法人一起來在輔導我們這些工具機產業還有一些相關受衝擊的產業我們先用AI市產線的部分讓他們能夠整個產線它能夠升級轉型"},{"start":13636.087,"end":13663.324,"text":"那另外就是工具機它也可以開發一些相關AI相關的產品的升級這個部分我想這個都是我們希望把整個產業能夠讓它整個產品跟設備的這些附加價值率能夠提升的一個方法做一點補充有關中小企業多元有發展相關的貸款還有外銷貸款以外還有一個研發補助的部分就是協助企業的升級轉型"},{"start":13664.414,"end":13690.439,"text":"那這個每家企業最高500萬產業聯盟一起申請4000萬裡面也包含的相關的這個太舊換新的設備擴大內需等我想這些經濟部其實我們在4月2號對等關稅公佈的時候院長已經有責成我們提出一個完整的支持方案那後續也從880億增加到930億那現在任性條例裡面也希望未來再匡列200億來增加來強化產業的這個支持"},{"start":13693.408,"end":13706.74,"text":"尤其委員關心的衝擊比較大跟競爭國相對關稅相對有劣勢的像工具機機械等等或者是農業的一些項目我想各部會再給予個別個案的支持"},{"start":13707.639,"end":13735.561,"text":"好 謝謝副院長再來就是農業的部分剛才有提到的美國規模化低成本的農產品它直接長驅直入的部分想請教一下部長美國的低價米如果長驅直入的話它的國內的價格會受到影響現在的現行的公糧收購保價收購的制度我們是希望能夠持續下去而且要因應物價來做調整作為穩定市場的"},{"start":13736.297,"end":13757.248,"text":"最後一道防線除了被動收購之外行政院或農業部有沒有針對稻米產業升級的計畫例如全力支持我們的特色米種來進行品牌化的行銷還是效法日本月光米的模式將台灣米我們從主食把它提升為精品這部分部長可不可以給我們一些回應"},{"start":13757.828,"end":13775.027,"text":"我跟委員說明就是有關於稻作的部分我們從今年年初推的稻作糧食安全升級方案現在的產地價都非常好業農民也非常開心所以稻米是一個糧食安全非常重要的產物所以也是我們必須要去守護的"},{"start":13775.647,"end":13794.657,"text":"雖然說美國在那邊有他的期待但是我們有我們要守護的所以這就必須要持續的溝通那現在談判還沒有結束我們一定會去守護我們最重要的糧食安全的一個產物我們會達到這樣的希望達到這樣的一個目標第二個部分就是您剛才講的很多美國產品進來以後會不會對國內的物價有影響"},{"start":13797.398,"end":13813.474,"text":"我要跟您報告就是不是所有的零關稅都非常可怕有一些產品是我們原物料的像黃曉玉的部分如果他現在都零關稅零關稅進來以後對於我們飼料成本會降低對於我們產業反而是好的"},{"start":13814.234,"end":13836.805,"text":"有一些產品本身它本身就是跟我們是我們本身生產非常少的這一類的產品它其實是可以滿足我們的消費者的需求所以我們也做了非常多的這樣的分析的確有一些產品是可能會到衝擊的這些衝擊的部分我們也完成了衝擊分析也完成了一些後面的因應方案"},{"start":13838.038,"end":13859.9,"text":"所以部長我剛才提到就是講稻米那對於剛才你說到用在飼料用對畜牧產業的這些可能的爭議的地方我也希望未來能夠能夠來清楚的跟民眾講我想補充三點第一點就是農業敏感項目這個的確涉及糧食安全剛剛陳部長有說美方當然會期待市場開放不過有關最重要的糧食安全也是我方考量的一個"},{"start":13860.541,"end":13885.164,"text":"原則但是我們的確沒有辦法就每一項談因為如果我們談了是不是屆時影響最終談判的這個結果我們想要維護一個最好的一個結果這第一點那第二點如果是對我們有互補性的項目我想這個也許就是可以在這個考量的範圍那或者是我國是依賴進口的部分但進口部分在國家之間的替代這個也是也許是一種考量所以我們會綜合考量"},{"start":13886.342,"end":13889.874,"text":"我們的糧食安全跟產業利益來跟美方做相關的談判"},{"start":13891.008,"end":13919.283,"text":"剛才副院長跟部長都有提到有一些互補性的比方說它能夠有效的把我們畜牧產業反而是有利的因為它可以壓低我們進口的價格的當然就是成為我們互相互利談判的一個基礎但是我剛才有提到一方面我提到精品把我們的稻米精品化但是我為什麼又提到工糧收購為什麼要提到要把價格的保證原因是因為同樣的農夫同樣在做稻米的這些種植有一部分是最脆弱的我們比較老農"},{"start":13920.143,"end":13945.36,"text":"對他們來講要精品化等等的話對他們來說的成本太大對我們來講我們與其要每一個產業走100步我們希望每一個人都可以有機會來成長所以我為什麼還在持續的講說包含工糧收購 保價收購還需要因應物價來去調整我們要保護的就是這些老農這些我們可能在最脆弱的一環所以它彼此之間是不矛盾的甚至是有互補的"},{"start":13945.88,"end":13966.963,"text":"再來就是我們的畜牧產業剛才有提到包含特別是白肉雞這跟我們日常的生活飲食是息息相關未來美國會大量極度便宜的如果是進口的雞腿雞翅等等都切塊這些我們國內產業可能很難競爭我想請教一下部長你有什麼樣的方案"},{"start":13968.243,"end":13978.215,"text":"我跟委員報告白肉機的部分現在進口的白肉機的部分占差不多全台灣使用的35%這35%其實幾乎100%都是由美國進來的所以美國已經有在進白肉機"},{"start":13984.136,"end":14012.928,"text":"另外一個就是白肉雞進來的都是特殊部位的部分它跟國產雞肉的消費的市場是不一樣的所以後續我們在處理這一塊的時候我們都是在不管是現在或未來我們一直希望說維護我們國內的產業它的市場的一個區隔性所以我們才能夠去面對未來的任何的一個挑戰所以後續的這些品牌後續的國內雞肉的部分的一個市場的區隔我們會加強來努力"},{"start":14013.561,"end":14039.719,"text":"好 再來就是酪農的部分其實之前有一陣子衛福部也在討論這件事情這個應該不會在這一次的關稅談判中裡面有包括在裡面吧所有的品項其實美國都有期待但是我們也有我們的要守護的部分部長 我就宣誓性講一下因為這個事情兩三個月前我們好不容易有說服我們的這些酪農朋友請把他們的權益一定要放在"},{"start":14041.59,"end":14061.956,"text":"這個討論的裡面強調這次我花很多的篇幅在強調農業的原因是因為我們都知道台積電是台灣的火車頭但是 糧食安全 國民的健康守護這些的就是農業所以我請農業部部長跟副院長能夠把這個事情不要把它納入最不重要的事情要把它納入最重要的事情的考量之一"},{"start":14062.555,"end":14076.643,"text":"接下來要針對政府對232條款的因應策略這個部分我先請教院長院長現在我們的輿論是主要是在焦點是20%的關稅有沒有機會爭取到調降或者是不疊加"},{"start":14077.603,"end":14106.722,"text":"但是這個前提可能是透過傳統的談判或者是擴大採購等等來去做討論可是這個232的情況比較複雜因為它是有國家安全的戰略的行動在考量在裡面它不是單純的降本求利而已它是在討論國家安全哪一項目它認為會影響到他們的國家安全所以如果編長我們也認同矽頓的概念跟單純的經濟關稅有差別的話那在這個談判辦除了談判辦公室之外我們是要納入處理國家安全"},{"start":14107.102,"end":14134.05,"text":"地緣政治層級的部會來去協助目前是有哪個單位在協助做這個部分的說服嗎是談判的過程 參與談判的嗎我們除了經濟部 勞動部國家安全相關的有嗎我們有把國安系統的建議國安會有進入嗎經濟部 國發會 財政部國安會這些都在我們談判小組我們希望這個在"},{"start":14135.95,"end":14152.56,"text":"232的部分他的談判他除了談判辦公室之外他必須是到國家安全層級的所以不是只是派員可能是要派相當有影響力的相當影響力的人物來去參與我們是整個政府整體一起決策一起參與"},{"start":14154.472,"end":14174.285,"text":"再來也是跟國家安全相關因為月初華盛頓郵報或者是美方的媒體都有提到說這次的關稅談判是不是有涉及軍購或者是軍事安全等議題應該是有嗎沒有 談判沒有跟軍購相關沒有跟安全領域相關 目前都沒有"},{"start":14175.823,"end":14190.188,"text":"跟委員報告因為我方在談判過程也向美方表達說我國賴清德總統在20月的時候就已經正式公開對外來宣示我國未來國防預算要達到GDP3%"},{"start":14192.129,"end":14214.79,"text":"所以這是我方總統已經正式對外公開承諾所以雙方就這個部分沒有再進一步多做討論院長其實我是建議把安全的議題納入關稅當中因為剛才提到農業很多敏感的產業但是在安全的產業上面其實我們是需要更多更好的技術更多的裝備來去因應中國的威脅那這個部分同時是我們需要購買的"},{"start":14216.672,"end":14232.523,"text":"如果我們是把農業納進去那犧牲部分的農業它是有雙重衝擊的但是在安全領域上面特別是在商購上面當我們購買這些裝備 器具 技術人員的訓練等等它其實是有增加我國籌碼的幫助的"},{"start":14233.343,"end":14249.087,"text":"特別是商購的部分我看之前國防部長有提到商購是不納入軍購裡面的計算的如果我們可以自己創造籌碼來增加讓我們農業有更多的機會的話我希望是可以做的軍購的部分當然就尊重國防部這邊的規劃我想國防部 國安會會有規劃謝謝陳委員謝謝院長 副院長"},{"start":14263.379,"end":14278.945,"text":"下一位請高金素美委員質詢謝謝主席有請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":14288.854,"end":14315.529,"text":"高軍委員好院長恭喜你留任留任的原因你應該知道還有很多的事情不敢言恭喜還有很多的事情是需要您解決的我們一起來努力今天有非常多的委員我問到就是媒體的獨家新聞公布台美談判的結果對美投資四年是2500億美元對美採購四年是1300億美元而十年之內再加上1700億美元"},{"start":14318.11,"end":14338.975,"text":"採購加上投資等於5500億這其中有3800億4年之內要執行完畢1700億10年之內要執行完畢另外對於美國視為貿易障礙的項目台灣是全面棄守開放全面進口的"},{"start":14339.685,"end":14354.535,"text":"雖然行政院你們在四個小時之內呢對於這個獨家新聞呢說傳播不實的訊息干擾談判造成了誤導請問一下院長您認為這個假新聞行政院有沒有提高"},{"start":14356.149,"end":14378.195,"text":"我們不輕易對媒體做提告所以裡面有一些是真的還是全面是假的有些敘述的過程是真的但是很多的數字是不正確的所以裡面談的有些問題是真的談到了只是數字不一樣當然談判敘述的過程是對的但內容 數字 以及他寫出的那些條件很多都有所出入"},{"start":14378.675,"end":14403.084,"text":"那行政院是這樣子我們不輕易對媒體提告所謂的出入就是這個數字不一樣而已但是談的過程談的裡面甚至於所謂美國說的貿易障礙台灣全面棄守了這是真的嗎有談貿易障礙但我們沒有全面棄守我們有談市場准入但不至於全面准入如果沒有全面棄守那當然是好事如果全面棄守你要不要負責任"},{"start":14405.702,"end":14418.994,"text":"是總統負責任還是您負責任還是談判的人要負責任好 我今天不是跟你談這則新聞我要講的是這一次的對等關稅可以說是動搖國本的大勢對吧"},{"start":14420.535,"end":14438.291,"text":"我們必須要非常嚴肅非常認真的來討論所以今天才會安排這樣子的一個國事論壇以及我們的質詢特別一直到現在民進黨政府你們都一直都還沒有公佈對等關稅最終的結果是什麼"},{"start":14439.011,"end":14452.598,"text":"還有我們怎麼樣兌買採購的金額還有我們到底會不會開放美國他所說的那些貿易障礙這些我們國人都不清楚所以我們是非常的焦慮我們回顧一下2017年的1月"},{"start":14454.179,"end":14472.997,"text":"川普他就任的第一任總統也就是2018年他就對中國大陸發動了關稅戰2021年的1月川普下台之後從此所謂的貿易關稅戰就成為了大家口中的流行名詞"},{"start":14474.258,"end":14502.827,"text":"一直到2023年川普他出馬競選第二任總統的時候他又公開的誓言說他要用關稅向全世界來宣戰所以其實呢川普他會用關稅發動貿易戰這都是大家知道的事情請問一下政府準備了什麼前瞻了什麼尤其院長你還記得嗎公佈的前一個晚上你讓大家安心的睡覺"},{"start":14503.967,"end":14520.902,"text":"現在安心了沒有我們說我們都沒有睡覺我當然希望國人安心我們一直在努力請問一下你們努力了什麼錢佔了什麼能不能花一點小的時間來跟大家說我們在川普總統大選之前我們在行政院裡面就成立了最美的經貿小組"},{"start":14522.843,"end":14542.1,"text":"那你怎麼會讓我們安心睡覺呢然後第二天結果變成我們的關稅比日本跟韓國還高好啦 院長院長 不要在這邊再繼續回復我們知道的事情而且媒體都清楚知道這個過程大家心裡面都知道這十年來我也知道"},{"start":14542.961,"end":14561.608,"text":"台灣的經濟貿易一直在調整看一下從蔡英文總統說雞蛋不要放在同一個籃子裡面然後馬上就推出了新南向政策一直到賴清德總統上台之後他喊出了脫中入北其實講白了就是脫中入美我們看一下這個統計圖"},{"start":14564.189,"end":14580.752,"text":"這個統計圖它是從2015年到2024年兩岸貿易順差還有台美貿易順差的10年的比較圖看一下藍色的藍色的是兩岸貿易順差2015年是636.3億美元2024年是699.8億美元紅色的是台美貿易的順差2015年只有78.4億美元"},{"start":14592.774,"end":14621.025,"text":"到了2024年就增加到649億美元看起來你們嘴巴說的托中成金平平的看這個數據入美呢卻是火紅的大躍進而蔡英文總統說雞蛋不要放到同一個籃子我們很顯然蔡英文總那個賴清德他已經把大部分的雞蛋放到了美國這個大籃子喔而且今年上半年台美貿易的順差已經到了"},{"start":14622.986,"end":14634.811,"text":"552億美元預估全年將會破千億院長請問您這算不算好的成績報告委員其實從2017年開始全球就歷經這個供應鏈的重組"},{"start":14636.832,"end":14653.857,"text":"那台灣也在這個全球供應鏈存儲當中有所變化我再問你們這算不算好的成績副院長請你針對我的回答來回應就好了今天只有15分鐘的時間算不算好成績我們台美順差的這個成長來自於美國算不算好成績好還是不好好還是不好"},{"start":14656.818,"end":14681.223,"text":"這是美國對我告訴的產業需求的成長好還是不好我們對歐盟對新南向的國家也有持續的進展你們不願意說好或不好就表示你們內心清楚知道其實我們的政府眼光非常的短淺為什麼因為就是因為這樣我們賺了美國的太多的錢了所以川普現在對我們動手這十年的投票我看到了兩個結論"},{"start":14686.884,"end":14714.71,"text":"第一個結論是民進黨你們執政之後你們一心想要改變馬英九的親美友日和中的戰略你們想要拉開兩岸緊密的經貿關係而民進黨你們的說辭是因為兩岸經貿如果太緊密的話哪一天大陸如果突然取消對台讓利取消了ECFA之後大陸會發動所謂的窮台現在看起來窮台的不是大陸喔"},{"start":14715.43,"end":14744.531,"text":"我們的經濟成長持續的往上升最親愛的美國是川普川普對台灣關稅的懲罰也勒索我們4000億的美元也連根拔走我們的台積電這恰恰戳破了民進黨你們說大陸會窮台的謊言而我看到的第二個結論是2023年川普他競選第二任總統的時候他誓言就要向全世界"},{"start":14745.071,"end":14760.564,"text":"用關稅來宣戰其中他五度的公開點名台灣賺走了美國的很多錢他還指控台灣偷走了美國的半導體請問院長您接受這個指控嗎"},{"start":14761.616,"end":14789.464,"text":"我們的半導體工業是我們自己在學習摸索你接受這個指控嗎不接受不接受好而這些恐嚇台灣的執政黨你們竟然毫無警覺今年對美貿易出操每個月就破紀錄而親美天美的代價是20%加N的疊加關稅必須要投資美國多少4000億美元這是你們的郭部長說的台積電也變成了美積電"},{"start":14790.904,"end":14809.53,"text":"院長啊 我們親美親到失去理智親美親到完全不設防現在我們就必須要付出這樣的代價而到目前為止真正的協議的內容為什麼要蓋牌是不是因為我們付不起這個代價"},{"start":14810.25,"end":14825.062,"text":"如果產業還繼續留在大陸他們現在負擔會更大但是現在窮台的是誰現在窮台的是誰現在窮台的是誰台灣現在沒有窮台灣現在沒有窮我們沒有窮我們的GDP達到26%以上把它26兆以上我們的經濟成長率也持續的增加我們一點來一點台灣窮隨著主席 請他們先停止好不好"},{"start":14835.911,"end":14859.05,"text":"我覺得今天這兩位你們講得太多了而且一再的反覆現在聽我講台灣曾經眼光非常的長遠也創造了台灣的經濟奇蹟今天我要花一點時間跟你們兩個講真實的前瞻故事希望您還有副院長你們不要再打擾我也希望民進黨你們可以反省一下"},{"start":14860.491,"end":14878.308,"text":"1970年代初全球發生了石油危機台灣的油價暴漲物價也飛漲當時擔任行政院長的蔣經國他推動了十大建設因而擴大了台灣的內需市場為下一個階段的經濟發展奠定了非常穩定的基礎"},{"start":14880.15,"end":14895.262,"text":"當時這個十大建設是在內外非常艱困的經濟環境之下從1973年一直到1979年我們花了大概7年的時間推動完成的總共的花費是1947億相當於1975年當時我們政府的總預算的2.5倍"},{"start":14902.347,"end":14925.732,"text":"當時政府的資金也不足也借了外債今天我們回顧一下這段歷史我相信大家都會同意十大建設的經濟效益到現在仍然對台灣發揮著非常重大的影響我要講第二個前瞻是1970年代末李國鼎的政委他推動的科學園區"},{"start":14926.952,"end":14951.05,"text":"他找回了張周謀先生成立的台積電當時連美國IBM公司老闆都說李國鼎啊你瘋了啊這個為台積電籌出這麼樣的巨額的經費但是現在我們十幾年之後回頭看一下如果沒有趙三哲李國鼎如果沒有護國神山台積電"},{"start":14952.091,"end":14977.921,"text":"在那個經濟處於三次加工的年代裡面在那個我們國家財政根本都還沒有非常豐厚的年代這兩個非常有前瞻眼光的領導人他用投資台灣的具體行動把台灣帶起了經濟起飛的年代帶來了數十年的繁榮院長我想請問你你有沒有聽過世界簡易這個名詞"},{"start":14980.401,"end":15005.071,"text":"你有沒有聽過世界簡易這個名詞你都同意嗎 現在我問你有沒有聽過世界簡易這個名詞有沒有聽過世界簡易這個名詞如果沒有的話我現在告訴你世界簡易現在全世界都是在討論就是說全世界的貿易是百分之百而全世界跟美國的貿易只有佔百分之十三點六"},{"start":15005.831,"end":15024.312,"text":"如果全世界我們不要了美國市場那麼還有86.4%的世界大市場我們為什麼要讓美國予取予求無盡的勒索我們如果拒絕川普的20%加n疊加的關稅我們拒絕跟美國貿易往來然後用川普勒索我們的4000億美金"},{"start":15026.135,"end":15038.735,"text":"投資我們自己的台灣投資我們的下一代發揮四五十年前台灣中小企業的精神那個就是拉著一卡皮箱全世界闖蕩的做貿易做訂單"},{"start":15040.225,"end":15065.443,"text":"那麼我們將會有世界簡易的 聽好86.4%的大市場任由我們的企業家自由的揮灑而我們如果拒絕了美國我們還可以不要吃美國的毒豬 毒牛我們的孩子也可以不要吃美國基改食品也不要進口美國的大米院長 你不要跟我說你沒有聽過有人會這麼做我告訴你"},{"start":15069.005,"end":15095.26,"text":"巴西印度現在就是這麼做還有院長你千萬不要再說我以美論看一下我過去懷疑美國的所有事情現在川普都在做現在請兩位看一下這段影片And don't let some of these politicians go around saying you knowcause I'm telling you these countries are calling us up kissing my ass kissing my ass kissing my ass"},{"start":15096.141,"end":15109,"text":"川普笑你們這些親美的人排著對親他的那兩個字我都不好意思說了你不認為這是一個侮辱嗎 院長這不是我們國家會做的事情這是不是一個侮辱"},{"start":15111.031,"end":15125.916,"text":"親美貼美是不是我們現在正在做的事情既然是這樣你同不同意我說拒絕跟美國做生意因為我們有86.4%的全世界大市場美國只有占13.4%而已最後我要提醒院長最後我要提醒院長"},{"start":15134.11,"end":15152.932,"text":"美國公布台灣官會20%的時候呢我就主張這個協議必須要送到立法院來討論並且要經過公民覆決一直到現在這個時刻為止我都堅持這樣的主張你同意嗎"},{"start":15153.971,"end":15169.482,"text":"依照條約締結法我們將談判的結果送交國會審議通過這是必要的好 人民絕對是你們最好的後盾學韓國一樣好好利用人民的拒絕的聲音給你們做談判最後的基準"},{"start":15170.262,"end":15195.633,"text":"台灣的經濟貿易的未來必須要由全民來決定聽好了不是由賴清德不是由您不是由副院長還有你們所謂的經貿小組也不是由民進黨政府來決定的台灣的經貿的未來是要由全民來決定的謝謝運作必須依照憲法"},{"start":15197.86,"end":15207.492,"text":"謝謝高經委員謝謝左院長還有副院長報告院會上午質詢到此為止下午2點30分繼續開會進行質詢現在休息"},{"start":21605.39,"end":21632.315,"text":"保安院會現在繼續開會進行專案報告質詢請李委員 昆城質詢副院長 我們請我們的卓院長還有鄭副院長"},{"start":21633.959,"end":21649.472,"text":"請卓院長還有鄭副院長兩位請背書李委員好"},{"start":21650.827,"end":21677.376,"text":"院長好 副院長好 辛苦了今天也是對於關稅的問題請教院長跟副院長我想請教一下在今年5月14號的時候美國的財政部長他有提到就是說我們跟台灣對於關稅的談判台灣有一個非常好的一個提案這是在5月14號的時候那時候"},{"start":21678.67,"end":21703.832,"text":"報導出來的時候 大家覺得說台灣不錯因為從4月初美國提出關稅之後32%大家嚇得心驚膽跳結果到5月10幾號的時候美國財政部長說台灣有提出一個很不錯的提案我們就相信說我們的行政團隊一定跟美國提出了一些很不錯的一些deal有可能關稅搞不好在5月中下旬就有可能確定了這是5月中的事情"},{"start":21704.918,"end":21727.944,"text":"但是到了7月7號的時候美國財政部長貝森特他有提到他就說如果沒有跟美國來達成這個協議的話戒指關稅會反彈到4月2號川普那時候宣布的高額的關稅32%這兩個月不到的時間我想請問一下院長跟副院長這段時間裡面"},{"start":21732.773,"end":21740.528,"text":"對於關稅的談判有發生了什麼樣的一個變化是不是本來有覺得一個不錯的提案那美國也樂於接受"},{"start":21741.894,"end":21767.023,"text":"但是後來為什麼兩個月之後美國財政部長覺得說如果沒有談完有可能會到32%雖然我們最後是到20%左右這個是院長或是副院長要來答覆謝謝委員的確我們在4月開始啟動談判其實經過四輪的實體談判跟十多次的視訊其實每一次的談判都有所進展都保持正向的發展"},{"start":21768.343,"end":21796.277,"text":"我們談判的對口貿易代表署跟商務部我們雙方都有進展對方也有速度表達其實我們有達到一定程度的共識不過您所說的在接近期限之前美方當時曾經因為本來是7月9號到期延到7月底希望在7月底之前大家也都希望各國都希望跟美國達成共識我方也希望跟美國達成利誘"},{"start":21797.162,"end":21822.299,"text":"但是最後的確雙方沒有能夠達成地有美方有清楚的告訴我們其實是因為台灣的逆差結構裡面佔有九成是來自半導體ICT而這部分聯動的美國232正在調查中關稅政策未定那有些併談對等跟232併談的國家像日韓歐盟他們涉及的232項目有汽車有鋼等等"},{"start":21822.839,"end":21835.413,"text":"那這些相對的他的稅率是定的相對他們的項目比較單純台灣的聚焦在半導體跟ICT所以我們在五月初那時候談判的時候聖博有把這個半導體還有我們資中訊產品一起納進來談所以那時候他講說這個"},{"start":21837.856,"end":21856.252,"text":"有非常好的提案是沒有包括這裡面嗎在這個提案裡面其實主要是我們有提出希望能夠平衡貿易逆差因為像大家都了解對等關稅談判的起源是因為貿易逆差台灣是美國第六大的逆差國所以我們也希望透過關稅非關稅貿易障礙以及採購等等相關的"},{"start":21858.114,"end":21882.675,"text":"所以說當時候美國的財政部長說這個非常好的提案裡面來平衡貿易逆差但是這些提案的是一個範疇雙方談判會變動因為我們面對是一個非傳統的經貿談判美方也會每一次都會提出他的要求尤其他跟各國在談所以各國的談判的條件也會影響美方的要求的期待跟談判的進程"},{"start":21883.476,"end":21908.413,"text":"所以它是一個互相影響變動的進行過程當中來前進但是我必須要跟委員報告是說其實台美的談判是有階段性的進展因此從32來調整成20但是的確我們在逆差結構中涉及有一部分是屬於232調查的項目而在8月1號前當時美國的政策還未定所以台美必須要就這個供應鏈合作跟232的項目並談一起談"},{"start":21910.814,"end":21925.01,"text":"那其他涉及232項目像日韓歐盟他們相對的項目有的是比較明確的已經有相關的稅率所以他們也是把對等跟232並談有取得一定的成果所以我方後續"},{"start":21925.751,"end":21943.381,"text":"的目標就是對等跟232關稅一併談然後我們也要在最終觸及最終稅率的談判的時候來爭取不疊加那這三個目標我們已經都在最近的三次視訊會議當中有提出我方的要求跟表達那副院長最近還要再去美國嗎"},{"start":21944.586,"end":21957.613,"text":"我們大概最近8月1號以後有經過了三次視訊那我上午有提到我們最近一次就是上個禮拜五那我想我們當然任何可能性有利於談判的安排我們都會來積極努力"},{"start":21958.221,"end":21986.44,"text":"當然最終就是要朝著總結會議來所以接下來的關稅確定之前還會再去美國嗎還是用視訊就可以了我想應該是最後總結會議也一定應該要在美國來進行我們也有表達我們隨時都可以去我知道院長給你一個空白的價單你隨時都可以去美國有需要就隨時去美國我們全力的支持團辦團隊積極的把我們的方案準備好隨時在雙方時間都能夠"},{"start":21988.641,"end":22008.674,"text":"談妥的時候我們就主動能夠去到美國跟他們談判所以我想我們就最後談判的進程我們每一次跟美方視訊都有就下一步以及後續的時程也要一併的持續的進行磋商那因為美方達成協議的方式有很多那我們也希望說就這個部分來一併討論"},{"start":22010.255,"end":22020.769,"text":"同樣在8月中的時候這個一樣是美國財政部長被深特他提到關稅應如榮兵他預估在10月底之前完成多數的談判"},{"start":22022.162,"end":22047.638,"text":"他說這個像關稅跟冰塊一樣有可能融化最後呢有可能是降低甚至取消那我們有辦法有達到這個機會嗎我想這個Beson部長他的這個發言裡面很重要有一個時辰的一個訊息就是美方有提到說希望還沒有達成協議的國家在10月底前那我也想跟委員報告就是說7月31號美國公布的行政命令裡面"},{"start":22048.398,"end":22071.229,"text":"台灣是列在NX-1附入一的國家那裡面特別提到說以同意或接近與美國完成協議與安全貿易與安全協議在後續與美國完成協議並經總統發布命令載明協議條件之前適用現在這個稅率所以也就是說最後我們必須要談判然後達成協議然後再經由雙方公佈協議所達成的這個條件"},{"start":22073.786,"end":22096.842,"text":"那這樣就是可以完成這樣的談判來決定這個最終的稅率所以目前台灣就是處於一個上需要我們接近完成協議但需要來談後續完成協議並來發布相關協議的條件那你們有沒有預估在10月底或是更早譬如說現在已經快8月下旬了有沒有可能在9月的時候就完成這個關稅談判我想美方財政部長所說的是一個他們general的形成"},{"start":22097.522,"end":22118.045,"text":"當然以我方的看法我們應該是要越快越好有可能在這個期限之前九月就達成關稅的協定嗎這都是我們努力的目標因為我們知道有些產業它受到的衝擊比較大我想每一天對他們都是辛苦的所以我們會積極努力那是有機會降到20%以下"},{"start":22119.606,"end":22146.084,"text":"我們現在20%是我看院長有在點頭啊努力啊我們的目標當然就是要努力我也知道啊 要努力到20%那我是說就你們現在談判的這個這個跟對方的這樣子談判的這個過程來講20%以下有沒有機會其實在7月31號我們在最後希望達成協議的過程當中跟美方也是有所溝通那也就是因為台灣有關於相關供應鏈的合作跟232要並談"},{"start":22147.014,"end":22170.056,"text":"所以我們希望後續對等232並談我們一併希望把對等關稅再降我們也同時爭取232的優惠目前大概我們的工具機模具 塑膠製品還有電子材料這一個受到關稅影響比較大因為我們主要競爭對手不論是韓國或是說德國甚至日本 越南 墨西哥等等他們有的關稅跟我們一樣但是在"},{"start":22170.797,"end":22199.017,"text":"工具機的方面的話我們明顯是受到影響我們的這個累加的關稅比起來就是會比主要競爭對手還要多那我現在主要在談因為剛剛有提到這個半導體這232的條款的這部分那目前當然因為台積電還有我們半導體有到美國去設廠我們就是關稅就是零那我想請問一下那接下來的這個談判過程當中我相信美國他們也可能需要或是說希望台灣的除了這一個"},{"start":22200.157,"end":22229.008,"text":"我們的半導體到美國去投資之外因為半導體它是整個產業鏈不是只有半導體還有上游 中游 下游在談判的過程當中有沒有可能就是說因為接下來因為它是先從半導體移到美國去設廠然後就給你零關稅接下來有可能會不會整個上中下游的產業鏈因為半導體已經過去了也會跟著一起過去美國去做投資如果這部分的話台灣有什麼樣的營運的一個方向"},{"start":22229.901,"end":22247.303,"text":"我想我們近期也積極的跟高科技產業界來座談那除了半導體產業也包括半導體上游材料設備產物那以及這個下游AI Server跟以及相關EMS等產業來了解我國的這個企業目前在美投資佈局的情形"},{"start":22247.793,"end":22271.378,"text":"因為我們要立即於我們的產業佈局的現況以及他們未來的期待你現在不過去投資的話那未來他們就是給你關稅嘛對不對這個部分就是在我們這幾次的談判當中我們也努力要去了解美方在232關稅可能的走向那目前因為看到揭露的資訊相對有限所以我們有持續性的在了解他們可能的"},{"start":22272.118,"end":22293.331,"text":"因為談判過程當中就是像比如說台積電去設廠了那就關稅就零那他當然我認為啦他希望說不是只有半導體過去他可能希望說整個產業鏈都能夠到美國去做投資那是跟委員報告在232調查的項目裡面除了半導體還有半導體設備那麼以及半導體衍生品其實當時在對等關稅這個公佈的時候"},{"start":22298.113,"end":22302.45,"text":"也有提到除了半導體半導體設備跟這個衍生品其實還有像"},{"start":22304.045,"end":22331.546,"text":"關鍵礦物 藥品 木材等等我的意思就是台灣是所以我們自動訊產業半導體這麼發達因為我們有產業鏈在台灣不論你是在竹科 中科 南科這個產業鏈是美國現在沒辦法去複製的但是如果萬一我們的半導體它要求我們去設廠那是不是未來有可能有可能說我們這些上中下游有可能也過去但是把這個當成是投資美國的一部分"},{"start":22332.841,"end":22340.998,"text":"這樣子會不會讓美國覺得說這些也到去美國去投資在跟他們講關稅談判的時候有沒有更多的利基點在經濟部來談一下產業的狀況"},{"start":22343.051,"end":22368.601,"text":"跟委員報告基本上就是說整個AI產業鏈它是從上游到下游其實除了AI晶片以外最重要的是伺服器因為我們台美之間最大的一個順差的來源大概就是伺服器還有顯示卡所以這個部分確實是整個如果要建構AI產業鏈的話確實是可能上中下游可能這些產業可能都有需要"},{"start":22370.202,"end":22395.838,"text":"會到美國去做一些投資當然現在產業工會他們也在有這樣的一些行動做一些準備所以我是回到4月初賴總統他所講的投資台灣投資美國對就是說我們要加碼投資美國形成台灣加一就是說藉由投資美國也帶動台灣的產業再次發展就是說"},{"start":22398.88,"end":22417.165,"text":"院長那時候有講過就是說美國要再次強大也讓台灣再次強大所以我剛才問說如果我們這些產業也到美國去投資的話那第一個他可能會要求因為不論是美國是韓國是日本他都要求你去做投資嘛不論是日本的5500億或是說這個韓國3500億我相信"},{"start":22420.666,"end":22437.431,"text":"他也會要求我們去做一些投資那這些投資就是我剛才所講的是包含那些產業的投資不曉得是不是在這次的談判裡面也能夠當成是我們過去投資然後用這東西來降低關稅的一個一個談判的籌碼我跟委員講幾個原則第一個"},{"start":22441.073,"end":22462.192,"text":"產業跟流台灣尤其是高科技產業必須維持台灣現在關鍵領先地位這個政策政府跟民間業者都有共識所以一定要跟流台灣全球佈局以台灣加一的方式去同時最高科技領先在台灣地位研發在台灣這個原則都不會改變至於細節上我們跟美國怎麼談"},{"start":22462.873,"end":22489.825,"text":"那希望我們怎麼去做投資副院長再來做我想美國的確有他振興製造業這樣的一個目標那尤其是 AI 跟這個半導體相關未來產業供應鏈不過我想談判雙方從台灣的立場我們希望談的是供應鏈的合作然後也是要有利於我國產業的一個國際的佈局所以在這樣的一個原則底下我們來跟美方來討論這個供應鏈的合作跟投資的"},{"start":22490.685,"end":22519.184,"text":"這個佈局因為過去雙方的產業高度互補他們研發創新我們有製造的優勢那我們的產業也已經到了這個正在擴大國際佈局的階段所以未來我們台灣加一在美國如何擴大投資佈局但同時達到雙方互利互補雙贏的一個供應鏈的合作這是我們談判的目標也在此這樣的一個共同的戰略目標底下能夠來爭取更好的這個稅率對等稅率以及232優惠"},{"start":22520.685,"end":22538.375,"text":"謝謝副院長那我接下來這一題我請這個總裁央行總裁先過來一下因為現在除了關稅之外還有匯率那所以呢工具機業者他就說是不是建議政府呢採取這個防禦性的匯率的這個調控這是一個那另外就是說那這個"},{"start":22540.911,"end":22553.043,"text":"經濟學者普遍預期就是說下半年度台灣的經濟成長可能會趨緩所以亞洲的主要一些銀行分別會採取降息的這些手段請問我們的央行會採取降息的手段嗎"},{"start":22567.5,"end":22594.098,"text":"經濟成長率都好不過的情況之下向期的結果全部不大"},{"start":22595.916,"end":22623.065,"text":"好 謝謝 我們時間到謝謝李委員 謝謝院長下一位請黃建豪委員質詢好 謝謝大委主席我們一樣先請卓榮泰院長以及請剛剛還沒有回答完的我們央行的總裁 楊慶隆總裁 謝謝來 請卓院長還有央行的總裁備詢"},{"start":22632.435,"end":22638.427,"text":"謝謝 黃議員好院長好 總裁好我想先剛剛李委員剛剛問到一半因為後面沒有"},{"start":22639.707,"end":22662.427,"text":"生意沒有記錄我在這邊正式再跟總裁詢問一下因為我想產業界都非常關心除了稅率之外匯率當然大家也非常關心那匯率之外影響的當然就是我們經濟成長會不會降息的可能性我想請總裁因為這個今天我現在問你這個問題這個才有語音記錄我想請問總裁我們今年有降息的可能如果因為上半年確實我想因為中間這段時間"},{"start":22663.928,"end":22691.267,"text":"美國關稅這個休息的期間大家大量出貨所以看起來經濟成長動能是很強但是就我們所收到民間的訊息很多的工具機產業很多機械業很多的產業界這些製造業他們預估他們認為下半年的景氣可能出貨量不會像上半年這麼暢旺所以有可能這個經濟成長可能又下修了在這個傳統產業的部分所以大家想問的是說有沒有可能下半年都有降息的可能性總裁是"},{"start":22692.792,"end":22705.72,"text":"中央銀行的一個調整利率我們不會是針對某一個產業我們是看整體的我們的一個判斷的標準第一個就是經濟成長率"},{"start":22708.45,"end":22736.823,"text":"物價 就誠如我剛剛所說的我們經濟成長率今年即使我們今年的上半年我們經濟成長率大概是在6.75%但是我們的後半年還有將近2.3%所以整個來講的話我們整年的經濟成長率是在4.45%這個是我們主力總署最新的一個評估的資料"},{"start":22737.583,"end":22760.807,"text":"那就以我們的物價來看的話大概是在2%下面一些我們的匯率如果說就匯率來看因為現在大家都是在關心匯率的問題事實上我們從1月到現在8月22號就上個禮拜五來看的話我們新台幣的匯率是上漲了7.18%但是我們的7.18%"},{"start":22765.356,"end":22783.443,"text":"跟日元 日元是6.98 才差0.2個百分點而已跟韓元來比較是差了0.78個百分點但是日本的經濟成長率 前半年的經濟成長率它才1.5% 韓國是0.25%我們台灣差很多"},{"start":22790.117,"end":22805.268,"text":"所以我就說我們的新台幣的匯率即使是7.18比日元跟韓元來得高了一點點但是我們的基本面都比他們好好很多總裁沒關係這個稍後會討論到實際產業面的需求"},{"start":22805.968,"end":22814.213,"text":"是 我想我們九月份的禮監事會會來討論這個問題好 總裁謝謝好 今天針對今天主題我想 院長我想這個對等關稅的稅率行政院當然目前認為說我們總體減少了沖刑從32%降到20%那我想問一下院長這個是因為我們看到數據其實我們這個川普他從"},{"start":22829.341,"end":22857.067,"text":"台灣時間7月23號開始陸陸續續的宣布了日本跟菲律賓跟印尼還有南海各國達成的協議台灣這邊是到8月1號我想我們看到賴總統說所以獲得階段性成果從32%調降到20%但20%從一開始就不是台灣談判的目標所以希望在後續談判中能夠爭取更有利更合理的稅率我想請問一下這個20%是談判的結果"},{"start":22859.527,"end":22874.299,"text":"還是說這個是單方面美國認為先這樣子以後再談當然目前是暫時性的對等關稅有我們的記憶有的關稅加上這個對等關稅20%是目前暫時性的我們在努力爭取更好更合理的一個稅率"},{"start":22874.875,"end":22888.986,"text":"我想問院長 也想請教副院長就是從32%到20%這個中間我們做了哪些努力或是我們拿了哪些條件所以可以先20%那後續又需要拿什麼出來談"},{"start":22891.225,"end":22918.95,"text":"還有可能再往下降這20%到底是談判互動的結果因為看其他國家的數據可能不然南韓也好 日本也好他們是承諾了一筆投資金額跟內容所以他獲得15%的匯率委員所提到的像日韓 歐盟等或者有些東南亞國家是完成談判的國家他說雙方有達成地友台美的談判我們過去幾個月的確有進展但是因為我們還沒有達成協議所以美方"},{"start":22920.317,"end":22937.045,"text":"階段性的暫時性的將台灣的對等稅率從32調整為20那當然我們的總稅率就是要再加上我們原來的這個美國對各國的MFN那是把它加起來但這是一個階段性暫時性的稅率因為台美還在繼續談判當中"},{"start":22939.486,"end":22952.851,"text":"我們過去兩三週以來也都持續在談我想謝謝副院長我想就是因為還在談判當中我們也知道所以今天才有這張質詢那我們看到前面其他國家的案例包含說日本包含韓國那我們要舉韓國"},{"start":22954.991,"end":22978.708,"text":"韓國他們包含提到這個造船的計畫我想大家看到新聞都很清楚他們確實也承諾要投資美國所謂3500億的部分但是3500億裡面又包含了說包含說製造他們的船塢的製造業這個船的製造業能夠這個造船業也能夠協助美國產業但同時他對南韓當地的就業又當地的工業有正面的幫助"},{"start":22979.068,"end":22999.9,"text":"所以要問的說像南韓這樣子的案例未來有沒有可能放在我們後續談判的過程裡面大家很關注嘛不管是你現在談的二三案條款的問題還是我們軍購的問題或是其他的產業我們跟美國一直在講說今天台灣之所以會有這麼龐大的貿易順差這去年的700多億就源自於說我們有大量的廠商去投資美國"},{"start":23000.64,"end":23023.223,"text":"那這投資美國廠商在大量跟台灣回購很多的設施跟器材我光講今年上半年從台灣採購的廠房設備等等的跟去年同期相比成長了56倍這表示說其實雙方的貿易雙方的投資廠房是非常密集的但是這個緣起是因為我們受美國的邀請"},{"start":23023.982,"end":23035.928,"text":"去投資很多廠房去投資這個產業那這裡面是合作關係啊就像今天他們南韓的造船業一樣是合作關係把合作關係帶進去是不是有機會降低我們未來其他產業的關稅"},{"start":23037.505,"end":23055.118,"text":"報告委員我是不能夠帶韓方跟美方回答不過就我們這樣觀察就是韓國除了3500億的投資承諾之外可能還有第二筆那麼他們在當時達成deal的時候美方是有宣布說還有第二筆的投資可能會帶雙方領導人"},{"start":23056.904,"end":23084.022,"text":"再去匯商所以我們看到像日韓 歐盟等他們基本上都是對等跟232關稅並談也就是有相關的供應鏈的合作然後同時爭取對等稅率以及232優惠的稅率對不起 我不是很面對現實啦投資美國或是說這個部分貿易出現是事實擺在眼前那川普就針對這件事情他當然要去做對的關稅嘛"},{"start":23085.684,"end":23098.423,"text":"這個我沒有意見我沒有反對就是大家面對現實就是事實就是如此但今天問題談的是說我們去投資也好我們不管那個金額多少那個投資的金額有沒有可能像比照南韓某一個產業也好"},{"start":23099.244,"end":23125.26,"text":"他們就以造船業為例嘛他的這個資金他的這個工業的這個製造的就業率或他產出的產品對他對美國當然是有利的但對南韓自己本身也是有利的那今天台灣有沒有這樣的條件或是有沒有哪一個產業可以做這樣子的籌碼去做這件事情後續我們要談的確就是希望說雙方供應鏈的合作是互利互補雙贏的這樣的一個模式來協商所以"},{"start":23125.62,"end":23151.395,"text":"我們會站在我國企業在赴美擴大投資的過程當中一起企業跟政府我們一起共同有共識然後一起跟美方來協商然後在這個供應鏈合作的過程我們要爭取好的稅率所以這個是要整體一起來來談判來討論我想今天整天到目前為止我想今天都談這個關稅的問題那我們也知道說去年我們整體對美出口是1114億左右美元"},{"start":23152.896,"end":23177.427,"text":"今天整個上午的對話裡面一直提到說我們二三二條款的關係台灣有很多產業大概九成以上的產業都涉及到二三二條款所以我們談判必須暫時的先有為所謂暫時的處分暫時的關稅是20%今天我要問的是說我們1114億裡面我們占比最高的出口美國最高兩個產業"},{"start":23179.305,"end":23208.285,"text":"我們在這個2004年美國自台進口如果以美國的數字來看1162億裡面有關232的項目是944億那這當中的半導體及其衍生品是738億好 沒關係 副院長我要講的是說你看半導體 資通訊產業基本上佔了大部分我們出口的總額是最高的所以這也是美方認為為什麼要更多時間跟台灣來談就是因為這樣 我要拜託我們的談判代表"},{"start":23209.906,"end":23217.896,"text":"因為今天台灣之水有這麼大的貿易順差是因為我們的半導體也好我們的自動機產業也好我們確實賺很多錢"},{"start":23219.386,"end":23244.061,"text":"我們有產業的實力但也因為美方對我高科技需求的成長譬如說過去這幾年像我們AI Server的成長其實也是美對我高科技需求的成長我們短短的跟美方表達說事實上台美供應鏈是互補合作的台灣的製造支持美國的研發創新所以我們希望說雙方未來能夠朝向一個互利互惠的方式"},{"start":23244.301,"end":23269.151,"text":"今天我們要講的就是說 講白話其實我們在產業 在地方上來自台中嘛 非常多的製造業跟傳產大家心裡的苦是什麼半導體賺這麼多錢但是今天承擔苦果的是大家就所有中小企業這些機械業 這些工具企業大家一起承擔這個後果所以我要拜託的民眾 拜託台灣代表會說今天能不能分開處理"},{"start":23270.677,"end":23291.758,"text":"你二三個條款半導體產業鏈這個電子通訊業這個是美國這邊他們確實有給我們採購的需要或是說雙方的貿易需要合作但是扣掉這一筆之後我想真的你把這個所謂的半導體自通訊產業扣掉之後我們整體的貿易並沒有想像中這麼高的順差"},{"start":23292.839,"end":23313.809,"text":"但是反而是讓所有人來承擔包含機械業 包含供應產業後續趕快推進談判然後在供應聯合作有共識之後我們就希望可以把對等關稅再降下來讓我們的相關的傳統產業能夠減緩相關現在面對的衝擊這個的確是我們談判小組最大的一個目標"},{"start":23314.789,"end":23331.215,"text":"我們在跟美國的貿易的美國的逆差方面我們有九成就來自這些半導體自動性產業所以我們也知道我們無論如何對半導體之外的其他產業包括中小企業我們政府要用更大的產業支持來協助他們"},{"start":23331.835,"end":23347.2,"text":"那每個國家都有他工業的優勢像您剛剛提到韓國他在造船有優勢我們在半導體有優勢但這個產業我們要讓他維持世界領先那其他的我們要在這波的這個關稅貿易秩序重整當中我們要把他拉起來讓他不要受到"},{"start":23348.1,"end":23376.044,"text":"產業的這個衝擊這是現在政府幾套方向在走 同時並行是啦 院長 因為你看數字這是你們行政院今年4月是要提供的數字我們對美 這個電子資訊出口美國就占了792億那去年 其實說真的我們的順差也只有739億你光是扣掉電子資訊通訊業之後其實我們是沒有順差的但是今天這個成果就是今天這樣子經濟成果你說好是很好但是今天因為有這關稅的問題我還是要再次強調今天是所有的"},{"start":23379.071,"end":23400.783,"text":"產業 傳產 農業大家一起來承擔這個苦果所以我們談判的過程裡面希望能夠分開來處理那其他的逆差方面跟美國逆差方面我們用一些採購投資就已經可以達到平衡我們也嘗試這樣表達過這個我們也都跟美方有表達過但現在因為的確美方也希望說整體一起看待所以我們現在就是最後一個關鍵的階段我們希望一併把它磋商完畢"},{"start":23401.53,"end":23415.347,"text":"好 最後面對現實因為剩兩分鐘而已面對現實當然這個東西在談判中工具機產業或是機械業確實到現在為止造成很大的衝擊我當然坦白今天上午有些業者知道我要質詢還特別打電話跟我講說因為去年2024年"},{"start":23416.829,"end":23442.028,"text":"台灣的機械過去兩大出口貿易對象一個是美國 一個是中國但去年因為ECFA所謂零關稅部分它的條件部分中止了所以機械去年受到重擊所以很多人在去年布局的時候的確又轉去美國但今年又受到美國的關稅影響他們現在不知道怎麼辦那既然不知道怎麼辦我要問的是說政府有沒有什麼手段協助他們去尋找其他市場第二個"},{"start":23443.663,"end":23447.934,"text":"萬一後續8月 9月 10月開始真的有失業率發生的時候我們準備了什麼事情"},{"start":23448.302,"end":23476.651,"text":"我們會幫我們的產業到國外去聯合辦展覽的方式推銷我們的產品另外我們會多元市場的開拓比方說歐盟比較印度比較南向國家另外我們會用台灣品牌來加強台灣產品在世界上的認同度用優質的台灣品牌來推出我們的各項的產品我們希望這樣來實質幫助那對參展或是其他的多元市場開拓我們在產業支持的方案裡面我們都有實質的預算來支柱"},{"start":23478.391,"end":23498.972,"text":"我們希望盡快啦因為像以台中為例我們必須講從台中出發我想市府也先編那一筆當然很多業者去參展所以自行車剛回來他們一年至少在過那一段時間他們去歐洲參展他們拿回了250萬美金的這個訂單五天他們希望一年內大概會有450萬美金就光台中而已那其他地方當然還有嘛"},{"start":23499.372,"end":23518.867,"text":"這是第一個部分所以我們當然希望說拓展其他國家的市場我覺得可能是面對美國關係所以必須面對現實所以怎麼樣去協助其他產業剛剛我講了資通訊產業那個是另外一件事情但是今天我們要顧的是傳產更多就業人口可能幾百萬的就業人口這部分我們要怎麼樣去把它轉出去這是第一個部分再來就是說"},{"start":23520.228,"end":23538.88,"text":"我看到我們的方案裡面很多是針對貸款的利率 貸款的間隙但是要講如果都已經沒有錢了我覺得那不是貸款問題是要紓困 院長你認同嗎金融支持我們有多項的金融支持我們還有一些行政成本的降低還有一些租稅的優惠我們都同時展開"},{"start":23549.595,"end":23556.699,"text":"謝謝黃委員 謝謝院長 副院長下一位請陳廷飛委員質詢謝謝副院長 我是請卓院長請卓院長備詢還有副院長還有鄭副院長請備詢"},{"start":23585.271,"end":23612.836,"text":"陳國元好院長好 副院長好大家辛苦了其實我們整個談判團隊真的很用心很努力其實我們看到美國的態度所有的國家每一個世界各國其實都面臨了很大的壓力所以我相信你們在前線在做這樣的一個談判壓力也非常的大因為你們帶著所有台灣人民的期待"},{"start":23613.516,"end":23629.828,"text":"可是我們又要保護我們自己的產業又要把我們產業的根留在台灣所以真的是很辛苦可是因為我們在談判的過程當中資訊回到台灣是很複雜的"},{"start":23631.269,"end":23659.228,"text":"所以有很多不同階段的訊息而造成了我們台灣自己本身產業有很多誤解所以其實我光用這個所謂關稅疊不疊加的問題我想這個應該是最近我們的媒體當中其實最多論述最多討論的但是我覺得有必要把它一次澄清"},{"start":23660.169,"end":23683.849,"text":"其實如果依照關稅疊加的部分我找了所有的資料我沒有詢問你們我自己找資料我發現如果以美國官方公布的其實關稅不疊加的只有歐盟各國其他就算我們在談的日本它也還在協議當中並沒有正式對外公布"},{"start":23685.158,"end":23705.966,"text":"我們台灣是在努力當中所有的國家也都在努力當中所以為什麼有人就用所謂的我們在騙基本上我們關稅要疊加我們還說20%我們沒有騙我們要先把這個基底談好"},{"start":23707.898,"end":23722.459,"text":"那關稅疊加是每個國家都這樣並不是只有台灣是只有歐盟沒有是所有的國家都面臨現在這個狀況可是你這個基底還沒有談好"},{"start":23723.462,"end":23740.05,"text":"你怎麼再說下一步所以我覺得這個部分應該要先釐清讓所有台灣人民知道而不是不同的訊息不同的民意代表所說的會讓人家誤解副院長是不是"},{"start":23740.55,"end":23759.582,"text":"是 委員的觀察完全的正確因為美國對各國本來就有它的MFN也就是原稅率台灣自然也在原稅率的對象裡面只有洽簽雙邊協議有FTA的國家他們就沒有原稅率有些品項沒有"},{"start":23760.262,"end":23774.35,"text":"那的確在所有達成協議的國家裡面目前看到的是歐盟在最終達成協議談判最終稅率的時候那麼歐盟有不疊加MFN原稅率來這樣的做最終的稅率的這個決定"},{"start":23775.47,"end":23798.722,"text":"那日本有表達去爭取但目前的確也要帶美方來證實最後的這個結果那台灣因為我們還在談判中我們現在取得的20%加上MA分是從32降下來是一個階段性的一個結果那我們持續談判等到我們在談最終稅率的時候我想最終就會來決定要不要"},{"start":23799.242,"end":23815.545,"text":"再加上MFN不過我可以跟委員報告的是說我們最近三次的視訊會議當中我們已經表達希望爭取不要疊加MFN這也是我方的立場我們會積極努力來爭取所以我們到目前為止我們的態度都沒改變"},{"start":23816.94,"end":23838.875,"text":"我想從卓院長對外 也是說我們現在在努力中啊我們當然要努力不疊加嘛 這是我們的方向所以我覺得我們應該要對外把這樣的一個定調而不是說 哇 因為不同的立場然後好像在唱衰我們這一個整個談判的過程我覺得真的是不好的"},{"start":23839.375,"end":23859.018,"text":"因為當你在做政治口水的時候基本上也會傷害到我們的產業也會讓我們的產業沒有信心我們前線在努力所有的談判團隊每天我們的視訊會議我們整個包括他給我們的時間我們要一直等待"},{"start":23859.679,"end":23879.506,"text":"大家是這樣子繃緊神經我覺得是要給大家鼓勵的所以這個部分我覺得因為我明明所看到的資訊跟媒體當中的資訊其實是有很大的落差我覺得應該趁這個機會讓我們的卓院長跟鄭副院長把它表達清楚"},{"start":23880.106,"end":23908.711,"text":"非常感謝委員一句話您的這番話對行政團隊尤其對談判團隊是正面的非常大的一個鼓勵當我們在談判的時候我們如果想到我們的國人是希望我們去爭取更好的而不是一直說我們是在欺騙國人這個對談判團隊的心理素質是影響很大更何況如果我們的對手看我們國內是這種狀況的話他會覺得跟我們談判他可能會得到更多我們現在還沒有辦法跟他談的過程"},{"start":23909.15,"end":23929.725,"text":"所以謝謝委員這樣正向的一個鼓勵我們會珍惜但是我們會利用這樣的鼓勵我們請談判團隊據理力爭為國家爭取最大利益一定要加油啦因為我也不能接受用欺騙兩個字因為我們在前線有很多真的還沒有到談判的結果我們不能公佈啊"},{"start":23931.57,"end":23954.609,"text":"你來我往的過程當中每一個都是機密每一個都是重點那當然我們知道我們要保護我們的產業我們一定要保護我們自己能夠保護的最後一個底線談判代表比誰都知道所以我覺得真的今天會利用這個時間去把這個疊加的部分因為"},{"start":23955.543,"end":23970.588,"text":"我覺得很難過啦因為我們也不能替你們說話我們就希望說能夠用這樣的訊息我自己去找的我說奇怪明明在美國官方網站真的沒有疊加的就一個歐盟各國"},{"start":23971.508,"end":23997.829,"text":"那為什麼還不斷地用這樣子的一個言語然後呢來傷害我們的談判團隊這是我覺得我不捨的地方那第二個部分就是說其實我們目前為止說真的放無薪假的確實有這個不能說沒有那無薪假的部分就是因為有太多的不確定性"},{"start":23999.346,"end":24024.981,"text":"他害怕 所以我一直在談的是我們擔任民意代表我們更應該是要讓產業有信心不能用錯誤的訊息或是懷疑 猜疑的訊息而讓產業更沒有信心所以我們現在放吳欣嘉我也知道我們行政院有要求我們勞動部一定要積極主動去了解原因是 勞動部主動訪視"},{"start":24026.609,"end":24043.974,"text":"對但是呢因為說真的我們在基層有聽到大家的壓力是因為我們的匯率沒有穩定到底未來會不會隨時有做調整所以他們都會擔心我多接了一張單我可能會"},{"start":24046.158,"end":24066.504,"text":"因為這樣而損失一張單就是在這個賺的價差的當中所以這個怎麼讓大家穩定信心這個很重要所以我覺得他們現在都覺得說我乾脆現在先按兵不動也是現在無薪假的原因我先按兵不動"},{"start":24067.324,"end":24085.937,"text":"我來了解整個局勢變化之後我再進一步所以這個都是他們內心的不穩定跟擔心所以這個也跟我們勞動部長說明一下這個無薪假有時候是一個擔憂因為我們的競爭力到底會不會萎縮來 部長"},{"start":24089.099,"end":24109.65,"text":"跟委員說明第一個其實因為實際上應該叫減班休息因為有時候講無薪假會讓大家以為真的可以無薪有時候有些勞工以為真的可以無薪他就不知道自己的權益在法規上面是不能夠無薪的至少要給最低工資這是第一個第二個就像剛剛委員說到其實現在大家可能會同時受到美國的關稅"},{"start":24111.024,"end":24139.177,"text":"又有匯率的影響所以我們現在在我們的強化版的僱傭安定措施裡面把如果你是受到匯率影響的也放進來可以做薪資補貼那我們薪資的這個差額補貼過去是五成我們也提高到七成所以其實我們都希望更大力的來支持減班休息勞工的經濟安全的部分那現在把原本的行業別原本是三個那現在也放寬到九個"},{"start":24140.097,"end":24168.954,"text":"那這也是聽了很多我們工會跟勞工朋友的想法所以我想我們會盡全力的來支持我們的勞工朋友最重要的是我們希望不要讓勞工朋友遇到失業或者是他要離開職場的狀況因為他只要還keep在他的這個職場上面的話未來訂單來他隨時都還可以快速的恢復就可以上位這對企業好那對勞工朋友至少他在經濟上面他不會馬上要去找工作尤其是如果遇到中高齡的勞工這對他來說都會是更多的挑戰"},{"start":24169.694,"end":24181.709,"text":"所以剛剛部長所說的我們應該更改這不是無薪假他基本上都要給基本工資對不對所以我們應該把這個觀念稍微調整所以我一定都會強調說"},{"start":24183.442,"end":24202.745,"text":"不是叫無薪假 這叫減班休息因為講多了真的很多勞工會以為好像真的可以無薪所以是減班休息隨時等待這一波的動盪完我們要隨時上工 隨時上位 對不對所以我今天問這些問題都是要讓我們的行政團隊不要被誤解"},{"start":24203.906,"end":24232.028,"text":"因為常常都會被誤解減班休息還有因為是景氣大環境關係其中還有一部分是因為關稅關係勞動部都把它分析出來的我們會針對關稅的部分特別來加以重視但是整個大環境減班休息的我們還是用一般的勞工政策來替他做一些紓困上的解決跟委員再補充每一個通報減班休息的廠商勞動部都會親自聯繫跟拜訪來了解到底發生什麼事情需要什麼協助我們可以投注什麼資源"},{"start":24232.748,"end":24257.746,"text":"每一個通報減慢休業廠商我們都會主動聯繫我們可能更積極然後跟他們做聯繫也把這樣的訊息通報每一個我們產業別他們都有工會嘛讓他們知道我們政府是有在協助在這個區塊的一個勞工的諮詢甚至協助我們已經規劃接下來要去每一個可能會受影響的工協會都希望讓他們知道我們有提供這樣的資源"},{"start":24258.146,"end":24285.469,"text":"好 那這個速度可能快一點那我再就叫我們的院長院長 其實我們把所有的產業品把它弄出來其實可能會比較直接的就是蝴蝶蘭 還有五國魚還有茶葉 鬼頭刀 毛豆 鱸魚這是農業的那其實我們再把它細分說真的 蝴蝶蘭是因為我們最主要的對手是荷蘭"},{"start":24286.89,"end":24305.796,"text":"因為荷蘭的關稅比我們低所以我覺得這個部分蝴蝶蘭可能是我們的重中之重在我們台南我們大家都聽到要死所以這個部分要拜託然後再來吳國瑜的產業他基本上因為我們主要競爭對手是中國"},{"start":24306.596,"end":24327.694,"text":"那當然中國是55%是還沒疊加的部分但是我們以這個關稅的一個基礎來講它是55%那這個茶葉的部分基本上因為我們競爭的對手跟我們都差不多所以我覺得我們還要細分整個我們的競爭對手優越是比較"},{"start":24328.694,"end":24337.902,"text":"對 一定要比較否則大家會亂掉說我們被受害的這麼嚴重但是其實產業都說我相信我們台灣撐得過因為我們有可以條件去跟人家拚競爭我們擔心的是說"},{"start":24346.485,"end":24374.588,"text":"像蝴蝶蘭荷蘭就比我們關稅低這麼多那在關稅要出去就已經競爭力少了人家一截了所以我認為說我們還要把每一個產業的細項把它分出來那還有就是說我們工具機的產業也是我們工具機的產業我們為什麼大家會哀哀叫因為工具機的產業我們主要對手是德國日本韓國他們的一個"},{"start":24376.089,"end":24400.818,"text":"關稅都比我們低所以我覺得我們要依照產業別特別再把它挑出來加重協助我覺得這才是比較重要否則你看我們也認為說我們所有的產業別中小企業有可能說手工具產業 水五金產業 重電產業還有我們的塑膠產業都可能受到衝擊可是因為競爭對手都是中國"},{"start":24401.758,"end":24411.585,"text":"都是中國 所以相對的壓力就減了我覺得我們應該要把這個訊息丟出來否則大家都不知道可能自己"},{"start":24413.319,"end":24432.404,"text":"這個產業的也未必那麼清楚都不知道我的競爭對手是誰都覺得說你看美國關稅這個樣子我是不是失去了競爭力可是其實所有的產業都說我只要我跟別人是一樣的關稅我就有把握我可以贏過別人這是我們台灣的驕傲"},{"start":24433.749,"end":24461.268,"text":"那我們要怎麼讓他有這樣的條件就是我們現在要去幫他的從農業 從中小企業這樣的角度所以我覺得這個是我們現在要做也是我要拜託院長我們的資訊要給產業更清楚讓他們有信心你讓中國拚 中國的百分之五十五萬你在怕什麼我覺得這個樣子的話他會更有信心那真的我們的對手是比較低的"},{"start":24462.949,"end":24490.263,"text":"競爭關稅是比較低的那我們就要給他更多的幫忙所以這個部分院長委員答覆我早上的報告裡面我說到工業方面工具機手工具水滸金重電塑膠農業方面的蝴蝶籃毛豆鬼頭刀以及委員剛剛所說的我們受的衝擊比較大所以我們用各種的金融支持產業支持方面來協助讓他的衝擊減少認為我們這個地方我們的競爭力可能會減少對其他的"},{"start":24518.689,"end":24529.015,"text":"我們的產業說真的 我們很驕傲他們認為只要我們政府給他們好的競爭空間他們是絕對有信心可以達成這個目的好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝院長副院長接下來我們請賴世保委員質詢"},{"start":24540.11,"end":24568.315,"text":"謝謝主席鄭副院長以及卓院長各位先進我們有請卓院長你剛才喝水可以了嗎好 休息一下卓院長請備詢我們是不是請副院長一起好不好鄭副院長也請備詢謝謝代委員好 院長辛苦了不會"},{"start":24570.883,"end":24591.833,"text":"這個G2030一直來立法院這裡辛苦但是我們希望我們希望來這裡能夠講一點真話啦要對國會公開啦現在現在外界這個今天的報告啊這個院長事先雷聲大雨點小說今天要來然後林運把很多資料給我們結果"},{"start":24594.134,"end":24619.729,"text":"編幾部沒什麼資料做文做很多結論就是繼續談爭取比較好的關稅我們沒有看到你們對國會還是黑箱還是蓋牌我就請問就一件具體的事情我們大家都朝野部分朝野全民全台灣人民都期待"},{"start":24620.769,"end":24642.329,"text":"能夠20加N所謂的疊加第一個它不是地板希望它變成天花板然後這20能夠降回15這是老百姓普遍的希望我們要的不多跟日本一樣就好了日本韓國都是15%我們要的不多就這樣子台灣老百姓非常老實非常誠實"},{"start":24643.63,"end":24659.847,"text":"也非常實際這樣的一個努力現在看起來大概就有兩個方向了第一個就是對美要增加投資第二個開放國內市場我就請問曾副院長這個跟美國有沒有談到"},{"start":24661.088,"end":24686.236,"text":"請你繼續回答報告委員的確美方會期待各國市場開放那我們也會在糧食安全國民健康的原則底下來跟他討論非關稅貿易障礙的確我們台美談判到最後沒有達成協議有部分就是聯動供應鏈合作跟232調查的項目所以我就問你一個具體的事情"},{"start":24687.583,"end":24692.171,"text":"是不是有可能美國是不是要求我們全面開放零關稅 有沒有"},{"start":24693.574,"end":24722.048,"text":"美國有沒有要求美方自然有他的期待他期待零關稅對不對期待零關稅期待市場開放市場全面開放因為各國談判的情況會連動因為談判是一個階段發展的當有的國家用零關稅提出來一個條件的時候美方他也會提出你怎麼回答我的問題啊 政府院長"},{"start":24722.748,"end":24747.068,"text":"我跟委員美國有沒有提出來要求零關稅美國提出市場開放的期待市場開放我必須這樣跟委員回答我方也會來針對有關在糧食安全國民健康的原則底上來跟美方協商但是因為委員如果我跟您講得太具體"},{"start":24747.748,"end":24765.114,"text":"如果我在這邊涉及什麼樣的敏感項目跟您報告之後屆時如果影響談判的結果這是我們比較不希望看到的所以請委員諒解跟國會諒解你來這裡要講實話就是你沒有答案沒關係但是我們要了解美方有沒有提出來"},{"start":24766.935,"end":24785.869,"text":"期待市場開放的確他會期待各國市場開放那這就是看雙方怎麼談判的確最後我們還有一部分要談的就是供應鏈合作投資供應鏈合作跟232條款相關的優惠方案但是這裡面"},{"start":24786.79,"end":24809.447,"text":"也涉及對等關稅最終的稅率是一起來談的所以媒體講了你們否認你們4年2500億你們說不對啊這不對那是比較多還是比較少因為這個相關的報導未經向經貿辦查證未經向部會查證那我跟委員可以報告是說現在還在談判中相關的數字都還在這個"},{"start":24811.048,"end":24838.757,"text":"談判中並不是媒體所報導的相關的數字跟我們的談判情況有所出入我們的GDP一年8000億美金日本4.多兆美金 它是我們的5倍日本投資 承諾投資5500億拿到15%天花板價我們用了不多跟日本一樣就好了按照GDP比例我們就出5%"},{"start":24839.949,"end":24865.012,"text":"所以以我們來講 投資1100億就夠了1100億Counter offer就應該1100億就是最多at most我們1500億2500億 就給我們說完了啦好 這個副院長請請回早上也有其他委員建議那我們會一併再一次的提出這樣合理的計算方式"},{"start":24865.796,"end":24893.465,"text":"我想有關於我方有力的論述我們都會來交叉充分的運用但是也請委員我們如果委員有需要我們也可以有時間詳細再跟委員報告各國他們最終公布的條件他不同的這個性質譬如說投資的數字有不同的性質我要請教院長這個副院長比較沒有角色我要去問現在來看的話賴總統前幾天講話"},{"start":24895.757,"end":24912.164,"text":"他講四個重點其中兩個重點第一個重點就是啟動立院行政新的互動模式第二個重點啟動內閣改組我要不要請邱部長上來一下衛福部的邱部長邱部長你要不要上來一下"},{"start":24914.502,"end":24938.613,"text":"媒體說成這樣 壞聲壞音這麼大聲 你說你要求邱部長寫請辭信 邱部長拒絕有這個事情嗎來 邱部長給你先說你有沒有跟院長見面 前幾天有沒有 有有 好是不是院長要你寫辭職信 你不要"},{"start":24942.033,"end":24959.961,"text":"我跟委員報告我跟邱部長見面的時候我第一個問他說你對未來的工作有沒有什麼樣長遠的計畫他跟我講了很多他過去所做的跟未來所做的這是我們剛見面的過程開始結束的時候你叫他請辭他不要"},{"start":24962.175,"end":24989.634,"text":"報告委員我跟邱部長見面來給邱部長講話我一句話就好了我跟邱部長見面只有我們兩個人沒有任何媒體在現場邱部長你講個話有沒有要你寫辭職信有沒有報告委員沒有我們都是談工作計畫沒有叫你寫辭職信工作跟健康台灣推動的一個狀況因為從這個事情看我就覺得原來的黃雁南原來的郭志輝兩位部長"},{"start":24991.295,"end":25005.246,"text":"他們的請辭大概也都是被請辭啦換言之就是完全是由上而下 我要你走靠靠捏 讓你自己說 啊 健康因素啦生涯規劃啦 讓你靠靠捏 這樣"},{"start":25008.07,"end":25030.792,"text":"黃部長因為戒掉期間八月底所以他回歸到中研院去那郭部長更有其他他個人的因素邱部長在立法院國會典長要講實話喔確實沒有要你寫辭職信喔確實沒有那你可以請回這是內閣改組你請回"},{"start":25034.462,"end":25062.345,"text":"內閣改組的部分我就講第二個賴總統說要啟動新的立院行政互動模式你在這裡上個禮拜接受我的事情你也這樣講啊新的模式結果新的模式是什麼馬上我們看到115年的中央政府總預算我們三讀通過了軍人加薪我們三讀通過了警消條例一通不編了"},{"start":25063.444,"end":25091.638,"text":"你通不偏啦 好啦 你說因為市縣賴總統要替你講話這個啊 就是胡說八道看囉114年今年度中央政府總預算請問你有沒有在執行請問你 有沒有在執行114年今年度目前正在執行中央政府總預算請問你有沒有提市縣114年中央政府總預算對 市縣 有沒有我們提出過復議"},{"start":25092.708,"end":25112.195,"text":"你五月提復印 八月提釋憲八月憲法法庭受理答案還沒有出來換言之只要大家都知道這是一個ABC只要經過總統公告的法律案三讀通過了你要實現可以 你寫實施"},{"start":25114.009,"end":25128.373,"text":"換言之你今天115年的中央政府總預算你說軍人加薪因為失限請下條例因為失限不編預算這個叫違法亂計違法違憲兩個回答 第一個委員您是"},{"start":25133.22,"end":25155.667,"text":"台政的專家在立法院多年立法院通過一個法案要行政院增加預算是否合憲值得考慮第二個我們這次的釋憲案我們並同提出暫時處分我們希望在暫時處分釋憲確定之後如果違憲我們就不做違憲機關的行為如果合憲我們就必須要補正我們就補正"},{"start":25157.657,"end":25170.358,"text":"不是這樣子啦我剛跟你講了半天你都沒有認真聽114年的預算正在執行你也是提示線我們沒有暫時處分你也在執行啊"},{"start":25171.158,"end":25196.243,"text":"我們沒有暫時處分你也在執行啊那現在這一次我們對於民進黨預算我們都了解啊我們提了暫時處分你不要去這樣子這個大家都了解我們提了暫時處分就是你只要總統公告就生效總統公告生效對不對沒有生效的我們也不能複製不能釋憲啊不是 你可以生效的你也沒有提複製你沒有提複製啊對不對 你就直接挑起釋憲大會委員長你希望我不提複製啊"},{"start":25196.823,"end":25199.632,"text":"不能用這樣的理由不是 我們有提暫時處分這一次有提暫時處分"},{"start":25202.148,"end":25231.488,"text":"老實講我對你上禮拜的打呼我是滿意的但是今天的打呼我是不滿意的我覺得你還是擺開一副要跟立法院吵架的架勢立法院用一個法案來增加行政機關的大幅支出這樣對嗎我們要求依法編列那就會重演原來114年禁法補償你不編退回 我們會退回"},{"start":25232.568,"end":25258.265,"text":"我就強力主張要退回因為我們同國的所以委員還是認為立法院可以用一個法案或一個預算案來大幅增加行政機關的這個預算的編列大幅支出那我就告訴你這個沒有違反憲法跟預算法嗎我就告訴你民進黨的先進門最早提出來那個叫許信良他當立委的時候提出來要提出來"},{"start":25265.623,"end":25289.031,"text":"要給老人津貼一個人三千一樣啊 跟這個一模一樣啊當時行政院如果同意有徵詢過有徵詢過行政院如果同意就沒有違憲問題如果沒有徵詢過而且沒有指出資金的來源那就有違憲之餘啊那種案子太多了啦立法委員 民進黨的委員提案然後也增加預算這個太多太多了我就不要再講了齁我再請那個政府院長"},{"start":25290.772,"end":25293.095,"text":"政府院長跟楊總裁政府院長跟楊總裁請楊總裁備詢時間暫停一下"},{"start":25313.869,"end":25323.207,"text":"現在講20% plus N其實如果把匯率加進來就是30幾%請問總裁4月到現在台幣升值多少"},{"start":25327.142,"end":25349.188,"text":"我們從今年開始來算 我們是7.184月2號開始那這個我大概要再算一下 我現在不知道我告訴你最少18 我覺得7.4點4月2號為什麼 因為那時候川普講的關稅的問題從那時候開始算起 其實那時候請問你現在外匯存底多少 外匯存底"},{"start":25349.708,"end":25353.753,"text":"我們外匯存底大概是5800億5800億每一天的匯市大概15億到20億天哪"},{"start":25364.031,"end":25392.425,"text":"VS5800億老實講你要調節太容易了你要維持在哪裡就哪裡了但是因為你怕人家說你是匯率超重所以呢但是那個時候突然突然一漲一下子一塊錢兩塊錢我想委員講的也沒有錯不過我有一個原則我們必須要把握住就是說"},{"start":25393.425,"end":25405.936,"text":"你升職或是貶職的時候你的調節委員的意思就是說你都可以來調節但是我說調節要有節制調節要有節制所以是貶職調節或是升職調節都要有節制現在證明了你當初讓他大幅升職那是配合關稅談判"},{"start":25420.869,"end":25433.098,"text":"政府院長跟主委長我跟委員報告絕對沒有報告委員央行不在我們台美經貿工作小組也不在我談判小組我的談判沒有涉及匯率這個要跟委員同時的報告絕對沒有大家前面這麼多的委員在提到的你不要講話我講喔因為我事情不多了"},{"start":25449.611,"end":25467.585,"text":"最大的擔心是匯率因為匯率不是只有對美國 對全世界都是我來到歐洲也是 來到東安也也是大家都非常的清楚匯率才是重要匯率加12% 所以我們等32%所以事實上最近新台幣"},{"start":25486.906,"end":25512.377,"text":"好 謝謝賴委員 謝謝卓院長下一位我們請林黛樺委員質詢好 我們有請院長跟副院長請卓院長還有曾副院長備詢"},{"start":25523.683,"end":25541.273,"text":"議員好在針對這個談判雖然還在進行當中但是有一些事情還是要跟國做個說明跟澄清三有 三沒有 三爭取823之後賴清德總統要求行政團隊要傾聽民意及時快速的進行社會溝通"},{"start":25542.453,"end":25559.071,"text":"那本席就給院長跟副院長您一個機會針對台美關稅的談判及時澄清及時回應及時溝通好那請問正副院長在談判團隊到美國是不是有到該到的地方"},{"start":25559.791,"end":25577.38,"text":"有見到該見的官員有提出保護產業的台灣原則呢這三個有 您要不要說明一下有的 謝謝因為委員的問題因為過去幾個月談判我們跟貿易代表署經過了四輪的實體談判"},{"start":25578.441,"end":25593.202,"text":"還有數次的線上會議也跟美國商務部有許多次的視訊跟會晤每一次談判我都有跟貿易代表署Gareer代表以及美國商務部部長London部長實質的會晤進行整體性的溝通"},{"start":25593.682,"end":25614.591,"text":"那也跟貿易代表署各個議題相關的專家團隊進行技術性的磋商所以都有完整該談的該堅持的該建的都有那當然最後沒有達成協議我今天有速度的說明就是最後因為對等跟232我們要一併談這也是後續我們三個目標再降對等爭取不疊加以及232的優惠"},{"start":25615.931,"end":25634.772,"text":"這個在今天早上的時候三爭取的部分其實這個在卓議員長的回應其實都有打打都有說明好那再來針對這個不實的報導這個是不是鄭重的在向國人澄清一下談判團隊是沒有不當投資沒有喪權入國"},{"start":25636.354,"end":25653.619,"text":"沒有出賣台積電您要不要說明一下目前在232的部分有關於供應鏈合作跟相關的投資都還在討論當中所以我們也有說明說相關報導沒有跟我們經貿辦以及相關部會來查證"},{"start":25655.66,"end":25676.53,"text":"那我想在談判過程所有的條件是不是讓談判團隊有空間否則我們也很擔心任何的數字任何的這個都可能會影響談判的結果那您可不可以講個原則那所以我們的原則就是產業利益 國民健康 糧食安全但攸關供應鏈的合作必須立即互利互補"},{"start":25677.871,"end":25695.005,"text":"雙贏的這樣的一個戰略目標底下來談台美的供應鏈合作郭院長你可不可以針對這三個原則再說明一下什麼在投資美國的原則是什麼開放農產品的原則是什麼捍衛護國神山的原則又是什麼可不可以說明一下"},{"start":25695.265,"end":25718.473,"text":"我想美國他自然會要求各國希望開放市場不過我們一定在產業利益國民健康跟糧食安全的原則之上來跟美國進行協商那有關於供應鏈的合作的部分我想台灣的產業的確也都在做國際佈局有些企業已經擴大對美投資但我們希望未來的雙方的供應鏈合作能夠互利互補共贏"},{"start":25719.393,"end":25740.554,"text":"能夠一起壯大產業那有關於這個台積電其實每個公司的投資決策政府基本上是尊重公司的決策那他們是跟客戶結合跟市場技術人才的結合我也必須跟委員來回溯一下其實台積電過去在美國在日本在德國等等各國的投資裡面我們看到"},{"start":25740.894,"end":25764.071,"text":"他們在國際佈局的同時台灣的半導體產業也在發展那麼2023年突破4.5兆2024年突破5.3兆我們也預期說今年還會再持續成長半導體產業所以我想院長也宣示非常清楚的原則跟流台灣研發創新的核心的關鍵技術在台灣但是政府我們也需要產業有利的國際佈局好 本席擔心的是來"},{"start":25769.495,"end":25794.484,"text":"對美貿易談判不能犧牲傳統產業要請中央拿出對策與決心剛才您的說明還是聚焦在半導體跟資通訊產業二三二條環比對等關稅影響更大民間常聽到的除了最惠國待遇的個位數字的關稅再加上20%的暫時性關稅也就是20加N受衝擊的有汽車零組件石化工具及紡織等產業"},{"start":25795.504,"end":25818.079,"text":"那對貿易這個影響較大的是232條款所造成的關稅美國總統當然基於他國家的安全這樣的232條款是可對進口產業採取限制措施的例如鋼鐵鋁金屬加工被課徵50%這已經是進行中的正在調查中的半導體晶片人員資通訊產業未來可能會被"},{"start":25822.922,"end":25846.835,"text":"課300%的關稅好那這樣可以顯然的行政院剛才吳副院長您的說明其實將半導體資通訊產業當作談判重點這個是已經顯而易見但本席擔憂的是其他產業是否會變成對美談判可犧牲的籌碼呢我想不會這個跟委員報告我們現在是就這個供應鏈合作232併談"},{"start":25848.556,"end":25871.931,"text":"有共識之後對等關稅就會再降因為我們看到像日韓歐盟拿到比較低的對等關稅在他們跟美國達成對等關稅的協議裡面都同時有爭取到232的優惠也就是雙方在投資跟供應鏈的合作所以我想美方整體看待整個兩國的貿易跟供應鏈的合作所以你的意思就是說"},{"start":25873.172,"end":25901.918,"text":"所以您的意思是說絕對不會有產業被犧牲當然不會我們要爭取對等再降就是因為對等關稅影響我們很多傳統產業所以這也是我們最重要的目標希望20%的對等關稅再降我就不用通過條例啦我就不需要通過條例啦5900的條例在經濟部下就有1100多億那包括農業的部分其實也聽你的講法是絕對不會被犧牲的那根本就不需要通過條例我幹嘛還提升到5900億呢"},{"start":25903.178,"end":25928.296,"text":"除了那兩間5900億的這個條例當中這個因應關稅條例當中所以我才讓你說明這個貿易一定有取有舍那一定有受衝擊受衝擊我就認真的面對嘛你才讓我在目前讓我們尤其在高雄的部分我的傳統產業 構建產業也好相關的這個工具相關的金屬構建相關的產業"},{"start":25929.477,"end":25943.751,"text":"當然會害怕 農業會不會害怕 會啊所以我這邊才說好那你要讓他們安心還是照你講的這些完全都不會有受傷害的產業這個要讓認清我會有哪些衝擊這才是重點啊"},{"start":25944.412,"end":25963.159,"text":"好那今天的產值重要還是就業人口重要你這邊半導體跟資通信的產業這個大概有121萬人口他光是121萬人口就有6兆的產值而傳產我這邊找的傳產是鋼鐵產業上中下游金屬製造石化及相關產業包括農業這樣子受衝擊的產業大概250萬人好這個表格貿易談判需要捨"},{"start":25971.022,"end":25983.574,"text":"得交換產值較高的科技產業從業人口只有121萬人產值較低的製造業與農業大概250萬人好目前我們談判內容是不是會為了121萬人的這個高科技產業"},{"start":25987.938,"end":26013.884,"text":"而犧牲了250萬人的這樣的船廠政府有沒有任何的措施讓今天受創級的250萬人受到輔導成為明天的贏家呢好那在財團布局海外的時候船廠是困守孤島嗎既然製造業外移是個趨勢行政院有何這個策略來確保本土研發與製造繼續"},{"start":26017.865,"end":26035.235,"text":"這個與製造這本土的研發跟製造能夠繼續的保持優勢呢好這邊要提到的我船長會面到三大壓力海外佈局是不可能像科技產業這麼容易的第一個我們的船長是缺乏國際化的人才第二個他的資金不夠充裕"},{"start":26035.635,"end":26058.112,"text":"第三他受天災匯率關稅三重打擊已經無能力來轉型以我北高雄船長來講我們就流傳一句話沒單等死接單找死現在有人防止面臨法拍有人不知道如何對於之前的員工來交代政府是不能坐等資本來申請補助"},{"start":26060.174,"end":26083.727,"text":"而是要主動下鄉伸出援手就搶救養活最多功能的產業好那另外我也會這包括農業的部分啦美國是農業大國那這個貿易談判當然要達到可能會開放畜牧糧食的那當然這個會有助於降低國內的物價但是農業不只有產糧食自主率的戰略考量"},{"start":26084.247,"end":26095.997,"text":"還要承載台灣文化記憶與庶民飲食的習慣所以這邊也提醒政府應該要重視就算開放市場也要透過冷鏈物流建設輔導產品的認證來協助農友提升競爭力好在這邊"},{"start":26101.786,"end":26118.344,"text":"我具體要求兩項第一個受到關稅與匯率雙重影響的南部產業區中央派出政務委員或等同的同等的首長於高雄設置跨部會的單一窗口會同地方政府組成下鄉的服務團主動服務"},{"start":26120.626,"end":26135.948,"text":"主動服務主動服務我講三次傳統產業跟這個農業的主動服務對接中央補助資源提供融資利息的利率的補貼這一點是重點頭要提供融資利率的補貼"},{"start":26137.029,"end":26160.589,"text":"那對於這個設備購置的獎勵海外參展的輔導等那第二個要求是對於未來可能受到開放美國進口衝擊的農業對於我高雄的岐山美濃或周遭的地區以工建計畫興建冷鏈物流倉儲中心協助我高雄的東九區北屏東台南三區的農友協調平衡產銷並請農業部跟經濟部合作"},{"start":26164.254,"end":26172.653,"text":"規劃特色農產出國產產以分散市場的策略來抵消美國關稅針對這兩項的具體要求院長您怎麼看"},{"start":26173.769,"end":26200.661,"text":"我覺得我們如果設餐廳窗口是一個很好的建議但是如果需要的話不限於設在哪裡我期待我們現在這次中央政府總共預算的追加預算今年追加預算如果能夠得到大院支持我們試圖把中部南部的各地的我們的服務中心把它強化讓各部會去也增加一些專門針對目前關稅受衝擊業務所需要的部會人員去增加這個服務"},{"start":26201.201,"end":26225.255,"text":"院長我為什麼特別談到跨部會單一窗口現在有啦經濟部有所謂的下鄉服務團是有但是你就是沒有速發部在裡面那包括相關的這個部會他們就是會推來推去只有經濟部有那其他部會沒有加入這是第一個那第二個我們確實也辦了很多說明會那說明會聽完完後"},{"start":26226.455,"end":26242.5,"text":"業者還是無所謂對我中南部業者的資源除了資訊不能到位之外通常第一個我們就是不知道有這個價位第二我不會寫第三個寫了也不會過這差不多是通常中南部在針對我中央政府計畫當中的"},{"start":26244.304,"end":26262.881,"text":"窘境啦所以我才說主動服務不是只辦了這個說明會啊你應該到家到府到場的主動告訴人家主動的為他量身締作每一個專屬的他的一個計畫書進而幫他盤點那可能會要花上半年一年的時間就一家"},{"start":26263.602,"end":26287.137,"text":"之後才這個計畫書才是符合他這個的他的需求的來再跟我們申請因為你們也結合了64個法人講得很好聽啊但是這樣的一個單一窗口我講的單一窗口除了法人的整合包括主動出席到場到戶到家的主動輔導量身地座不是辦了說明會之後沒事了"},{"start":26288.158,"end":26310.464,"text":"產業的服務跟支持經濟部為主我們請市長來說明跟委員報告8月7號我們有將一些計畫用以晚計集的方式預算先挪用來做產業的輔導的部分目前來講其實我們海外訂單的補助已經有187家提出申請"},{"start":26311.284,"end":26329.793,"text":"市長你最好針對我的問題你的說明會你有出席的沒出席的我也參加了好幾場我現在點出的就是問題所以為什麼現在的我們中小企業在南部當中並沒有感受到政府的我一直強調我希望我們的政府是有溫度跟靠山的"},{"start":26330.473,"end":26347.228,"text":"但是是沒有的看得到吃不到了跟委員報告我們都我們都可以來做專案的協助我們在這個高雄地區的話我們有一些法人他就會直接到我們那個扣件扣件的這個我把問題點給你了那如果呢你沒有在"},{"start":26347.968,"end":26364.362,"text":"到廠到戶到家的主動的而只是純粹的辦說明會而且你的說明會是有限的喔你針對工業區包括一些一些協會一些工協會辦完之後就沒有了現在的狀況就是這樣"},{"start":26365.183,"end":26382.112,"text":"所以這些還是不會寫還是不會寫第一個知不知道 有沒有全面明顯知道也沒有我們來檢討 我要求他們那個單據啊要用選擇勾選題 不要用寫一大堆的那單數不要超過兩三張能夠讓大家能夠盡快填好"},{"start":26382.832,"end":26409.401,"text":"那院長你也做了指示還要主動到任何的百工百業包括服務業 容器業一樣那再來針對於公建計畫興建冷鏈物流倉儲中心協助我高雄東九區包括岐山美容等地區那以及在他們的出國的參展上給予支持來 部長您怎麼說呢跟委員報告就是我們在第一期的冷鏈計畫其實已經"},{"start":26410.721,"end":26437.424,"text":"設計了全台灣的區域物流然後我們第二期的冷鏈計畫也是從今年開始所以在特別在高雄的地方我們也在評估一些適合做區域物流中心的部分去做一個這樣的一個興建我們希望說興建一個台灣的整合冷鏈物流網這第一個第二個部分就是說有關於好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":26440.737,"end":26448.383,"text":"謝謝卓院長跟副院長報告院會我們休息十分鐘休息之後繼續進行質詢現在休息"},{"start":27106.776,"end":27123.242,"text":"發言會現在繼續開會 請徐委員僑心咨詢謝謝主席 我們先請卓院長來 請卓院長備詢徐委員好"},{"start":27136.071,"end":27157.507,"text":"首先我要詢問一下在823 32比0之後台美關稅在朝野的對話能不能夠提升您覺得我們應大院要求今天來做報告那這個時間也是在8月23之前但爛線的總統發表談話是昨天我的意思是說從今天開始會不會比前天更好"},{"start":27159.158,"end":27178.321,"text":"我說今天我們來這裡報告是一個月以前就排定的時間我要問的是在賴清的總統的宣誓之後你認為朝野協商我們這樣子的對話需不需要我們縣我們行政院跟在野黨的協商跟溝通的管道跟方式需不需要有所改變"},{"start":27179.122,"end":27199.011,"text":"我們調整財政體質 調整兩院互動調整這個施政順序 調整內閣人士那賴清德總統說調整的順序第一個就是經濟優先那我想當然也包含台美關稅民生若是青年優先 那請問一下我們著內閣之前的優先訊是什麼第一優先是什麼"},{"start":27201.061,"end":27218.857,"text":"去年520來的時候總統要求的第一個就是經濟發展不對喔 不對喔賴清德總統說要調整順序要調整的意思代表什麼代表本來不是嘛所以你現在告訴我說第一個順序叫做經濟那既然第一個順序叫做經濟那現在要調整什麼嘛"},{"start":27219.537,"end":27230.169,"text":"就讓我們經濟體質更好要調整得更好所以只不過是本來不夠好現在要更好那不算什麼調整嘛那第二個順序是什麼第二個順序是什麼來 第二個順序是什麼卓內閣的第二個優先順序你施政順序的第二個是什麼"},{"start":27237.762,"end":27255.823,"text":"你說總統說的你說的 我在問你啊我說總統要求我們第一個就是經濟發展對 我說的是在8.23之前不要浪費我的時間好 那總之賴清德總統強調要改變行政跟立法的互動但是我們可以看到今天質詢我覺得沒有任何的改變"},{"start":27256.624,"end":27276.05,"text":"跟823以前完全沒有不一樣啊你採納了哪一個在野黨的立委的意見呢賴清的俗話你根本沒有在聽嘛比方說賴清的總統有沒有講四個優先有青年優先 有沒有有沒有嘛 你不要一直浪費我的時間嘛四個優先 你該不會沒有去看那場記者會吧"},{"start":27277.435,"end":27305.952,"text":"我們未來在他講的第四個優先就是青年優先沒有什麼未不未來結果行政院隔天拿財化法去綁架小學生啊不讓他們喝水吹冷氣用點拿小學生開刀對嗎財化法各個縣市都已經有去投入他們的整個規劃也行政院相關的一定都知道講過很多次了例如台北市2500多億要投入捷運要蓋社會住宅改善交通興建醫療場所"},{"start":27307.273,"end":27312.422,"text":"你可以跟地方政府溝通啊不是溝通是823當天賴清德總統講的嗎結果你有沒有跟各縣市溝通就直接開刀要綁架小孩的權益啊"},{"start":27318.752,"end":27334.677,"text":"有嗎這件事情你們有跟地方溝通完成協商完畢才公布的嗎委員你們在定財化法新的時候有沒有跟行政院溝通過想到說行政院要被拿去3700多億財政收支劃分法講了20多年了以前賴清德總統也同意所以我們才修的"},{"start":27339.918,"end":27354.995,"text":"所以我要講的事情是你覺得作為一個行政院中央的機關你都編列了財化法的預算了然後你今天要綁架小朋友的這些吹冷氣的費用你不需要跟地方公眾溝通完畢之後再告訴大眾不需要"},{"start":27355.535,"end":27369.787,"text":"用這種字眼用這種字眼來抹煞跟扭曲行政院的做法我們是裁劃嘛媽媽群組都已經炸坑這叫什麼凹人一時爽啊 全越火葬場啊總統的話"},{"start":27372.109,"end":27392.724,"text":"中央交4千億給地方大家分配之後難道不需要有一個事權的分配嗎你可以跟地方政府討論完畢之後共同公佈啊我跟他問的事情是你們討論完共同公佈了沒有嗎跟委員報告我們都有跟地方政府溝通8月的報告還要跟地方政府報告他們"},{"start":27394.945,"end":27419.432,"text":"告訴而已台北市比今年114年增加452億我都知道我問你是電力的部分你跟政府溝通之後成功了沒有嗎我沒有跟地方政府溝通柴化法的分配啊成功了沒有電費的部分所以你的意思是台北市告訴你說他同意新北市告訴你說他同意他們現在這些市長都在騙人"},{"start":27421.132,"end":27421.752,"text":"沒有什麼騙人"},{"start":27451.292,"end":27472.472,"text":"共同報告很好啊 結果沒有啊賴清德總統說的是要朝野溝通朝野多化行政跟立法溝通當然也要跟地方溝通你溝通沒有成功今天就片面的來宣布這是大家覺得很荒謬的地方我們過去兩三個禮拜很多重要法案一步一步的推我覺得這是一個新的模式"},{"start":27472.932,"end":27493.765,"text":"你新的模式裡面你對於我們剛剛講的你就是劣勢嘛你不要拿其他的議題來讀我這個議題嘛我剛剛問的就是沒有溝通出正向的結果就貿然的公佈導致於地方縣市政府跟媽媽群都非常的不滿嘛好 我們今天的重要主題是關於台美的關稅我要詢問的是20%的關稅是暫時性的"},{"start":27499.048,"end":27526.175,"text":"那現在已經25天快要一個月了請問這個暫時性什麼時候要結束要多久從今天早上開始諮詢到現在這個已經好幾次提出的問題因為你們沒有解決跟答案誰每個人都要問我不問是我不盡責啊台美延展再說一次謝謝委員台美持續談判中我們希望越快能夠談出一個結果我們會全力努力"},{"start":27528.175,"end":27543.422,"text":"剛剛聽了質詢發現大多數都是視訊會議很少是實體磋商只有四次而已嗎那每一輪都有數天的時間但是總體數大多都是線上磋商為主嗎那我要問的事情是什麼"},{"start":27545.783,"end":27558.33,"text":"然後中間四輪而且每次去都是數天數天那請問線上的會議還有幾次實體磋商之間就會透過視訊會議實體磋商之間還透過視訊會議所以實體磋商實體磋商不一定是我要問你們"},{"start":27563.953,"end":27591.227,"text":"我會問你 我會讓你講所以實體磋商這四個字不代表都是面對面中間還有視訊的部分是嗎實體磋商就是我們人到華府面對面雙方的談判團隊坐下來數天的時間就各項議題逐一的磋商那對方除了我們組團的代表也有他們相關的議題的專家那我方有我楊政委也有相關的部會就不同的議題大家就來進行磋商"},{"start":27592.047,"end":27605.739,"text":"沒有視訊的部分因為實體的話就不是視訊實體就是我們人道華府實體跟實體之間就會透過視訊會議保持相關的持續的操作跟聯繫剛才您剛剛講了三次疊加當實體在面對面談判的時候我們整個台灣在台北"},{"start":27611.824,"end":27638.448,"text":"也配合美國時間總統領隊配合美國時間一直到深夜運動一直沒有離開因為剛才因為講到一個就是沒有講清楚就是實體跟視訊的部分好那剛才講清楚我現在了解了我可以接受我可以接受啊那但是我要問的是您剛剛說三次最近的視訊會議都有向美方表達說不要用疊加的方式那請問對方的意見是正向還是負向的"},{"start":27639.028,"end":27667.824,"text":"還是沒有評論我們持續的正向朝向最後總結會議在持續的磋商當中但是要最終因為通常是達成協議的時候會去談最終美方降稅的方案那美方降稅方案裡面我們裡面就會觸及疊加不疊加但是我要跟韋芳原則上各國都是沒有疊加但歐盟有例外那我們看到日本也在爭取各國都是疊加歐盟例外不疊加那我們看到日本也在爭取"},{"start":27668.584,"end":27689.351,"text":"但是不叠加的可能性很高我們也要爭取不叠加就是最後不叠加比照你所說的其他國家而非歐盟的機會非常高是嗎歐盟是例外但是無論例外無論例外跟原則我方的目標就是全力努力爭取再這樣迴抗不叠加"},{"start":27692.992,"end":27717.625,"text":"我們就是全力努力爭取我坦白說如果是正向的今天這麼多人問早就講了剛才賴氏堡委員的詢問你們只承認市場要開放沒有說要零關稅好 沒關係我們針對市場開放來做一個討論你們今天的報告寫的有關於糧食安全希望能夠從美國採購黃豆 玉米 小麥 石油天然氣 跟農工產品"},{"start":27718.605,"end":27740.605,"text":"但是媒體額外報導的部分有關於牛肉豬肉的動植物檢驗措施還有我特別針對家禽跟蛋製品兩個詢問好了家禽跟蛋製品的部分要讓他取消美國產品的限制跟許可這個是假消息假新聞還是真的有這件事"},{"start":27742.026,"end":27756.175,"text":"這個報導剛剛今天有速度回答我只問這個我只問我只問家禽跟沒有像經貿辦跟我們查證那其實每一方每一年他都會公佈一個關稅貿易障礙的年度報告我想委員這都是公開資訊"},{"start":27757.476,"end":27785.84,"text":"這裡面提到很多項都是美國他會對每一國公布他認為的關稅貿易障礙那在這些範圍裡面美方當然會提出他的期待來協商但是我們的一個原則就是國民健康糧食安全所以我認為說在家禽跟淡製品這兩種我就問這兩種就好了在家禽類就是如雞等等還有在這個蛋的限制跟許可會在這個關稅談判當中去取消它嗎"},{"start":27787.932,"end":27814.869,"text":"不瞭解委員的問題是什麼我跟委員報告就是您剛才講的那個家禽跟就是雞啊或是蛋的部分那相對的就是美國他有提出不同包括農林漁區的品項都希望說某個程度的開放這是他們的期待那我們也有我們要守護的部分所以針對兩三天的部分我理解了那我要問代表啊那就是針對這個部分他剛已經解釋給你聽了嘛那請問在這個部分我們開放的部分我們要談及到"},{"start":27818.072,"end":27833.814,"text":"那我們有談及到這個部分然後我們的態度是什麼那不要開放許可嘛那你們每一個今天從早上到現在每一個都是持續溝通那這樣的話就沒有回答到我們真正的問題所有的東西"},{"start":27834.915,"end":27863.806,"text":"都還沒有定案那今天大家來質詢那意義在哪裡我再問一個問題如果開放零關稅的話農業項目包包含麵粉有討論到這個問題麵粉的零關稅開放美國開放麵粉零關稅有沒有討論到我跟委員報告黃小玉還有小玉的小就是小麥的部分就是跟麵粉的部分現在就是零關稅那這一類的產品進來國內的話反而是降低國內的生產成本是對於國內的消費是有幫助的黃小玉不是有問我單純問麵粉的部分"},{"start":27865.232,"end":27886.387,"text":"對 因為整個的一個小麥的部分它有非常多的碎栽耗類其中有一個碎栽耗類就是麵粉的部分所以你認為這個反而對我國的麵粉會有幫助有一些關稅低的時候對我們的生產成本降低是有幫助的有些大宗原物料本國也在進行採購不過我想就這個相關項目這個沒有問題 剛剛你們已經回答了"},{"start":27888.608,"end":27909.458,"text":"再來我想要問關於台美關稅的另外一個重點就是橫貧台美的貿易順差其中有一項有機會記錄的當然是武器的採購也就是軍購在國防預算裡面我們的武器採購有兩種方式一種是FMS的軍購就是軍售政府對政府的"},{"start":27909.798,"end":27919.724,"text":"另外一種是DCS的商售是向軍火商購買的那請問我們目前來講平均兩種採購的比率是百分之多少對百分之多少這個部分我們還要再"},{"start":27924.537,"end":27940.942,"text":"因為雙方的計算跟品項的設定到現在我們沒有辦法在這個地方講出一個設定出來你不要回答不出來就說不知道就是7比3FMS是70 DCS是30因為外交部國防部都曾經回答過類似的問題"},{"start":27948.925,"end":27955.933,"text":"所以你不要這樣你不要自己回答不出來就說這個還要怎麼調整這一點都不細項我們的軍售是跟政府對政府或者是向軍售商軍火商購買這哪裡細項啦好那"},{"start":27964.964,"end":27980.096,"text":"我問一下現在政府對政府的採購能不能夠進入台美的貿易額之中能不能夠去衡量在有關軍購的部分我們尊重國防部的規劃是由國防部在進行規劃的啊外交部說不行啊不能進在這個台美貿易稅的當中啊"},{"start":27983.098,"end":28007.168,"text":"那我的意思是說在基本的貿易的順利差基本的貿易順利差的確但是我們在談判當中我方也向美方表達我國賴清德總統在2月的時候就已經有正式公開的承諾所以這部分就是我方自己的一個承諾我知道嘛70%是走政府對政府嘛那這樣子我算出來大概是6656億沒有辦法算進去去橫平這個差額嘛"},{"start":28011.75,"end":28039.603,"text":"你不會不知道這件事吧我們不能這樣計算這個不是這樣的計算標準這是這樣去算的這是外交部的政務次長陳明齊他說的他說透過美國軍售FMS的管道不算在台美貿易額當中雙售DCS才算我要讓我再問一個問題我們有沒有辦法向美國爭取FMS的軍售也可以列入貿易擬差我們有很多雙方的立場跟條件都互相在討論"},{"start":28054.19,"end":28071.763,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝徐委員 謝謝卓院長下一位請何欣淳委員質詢好 謝謝副院長那我們請卓院長"},{"start":28076.673,"end":28076.856,"text":"請左院長備詢"},{"start":28087.265,"end":28108.832,"text":"董事長辛苦了其實剛剛看到在野黨委員的質詢真的是不給你講話的機會也不給同來背詢的各位首長講話的機會事實上質詢就是要好好的講清楚就算是在野監督執政也是要理性好好的溝通好好的講清楚"},{"start":28109.412,"end":28131.034,"text":"真理是越辯越明講清楚才能夠讓我們所有的台灣人民知道我們政府正在努力做什麼就如同我們今天的專案報告對美的關稅的談判我們現在是暫時性的關稅那也正在協商當中這一個立場 這一個態度我想為了"},{"start":28131.854,"end":28146.966,"text":"國家的民生經濟為了國人的就業為了很多人民生的食品安全等等我想我們盡力很多談判兩個字就是有來有往我們有要進攻也有要守護的我們希望"},{"start":28147.626,"end":28161.429,"text":"可以從跟美國好好的談判的這個過程裡面能夠截取國家最大的利益院長這個才是我們真的今天這個專案報告安排需要好好談清楚之所在對不對院長"},{"start":28162.609,"end":28177.138,"text":"對 我們一直秉持以國家利益 產業利益為最大優先進行談判那很多的細節我們都說過國際談判的慣例在還沒有到細節完全底定的時候是不能夠全部向外界來說明的但是我們有承諾依法"},{"start":28178.272,"end":28205.855,"text":"談判抵定之後一定送到國會這個必需要的程序也是我們的憲政體制所以我們一定遵守我們要大大方方而且清楚直白的向國人說清楚免除國人的疑慮這就是我們行政院的責任對不對院長早上在報告裡面我也強調過這一點我們一定在談判達到協議的時候要向國人向社會向"},{"start":28207.101,"end":28231.994,"text":"國會做說明同時依照條約第第結法相關裡面的條文必須送國會來審議我想這個是基本而且是必要的程序我也希望大家說總統希望兩院互動模式調整我也不認為這應該只是單方面的調整像這種質詢的內容應該體諒到整個談判團團隊在目前他有一些必要的難處所以應該讓團不團隊更有大的一個空間"},{"start":28232.654,"end":28239.962,"text":"但是只要原則性大家都能夠體會到支持談判團隊去把談判做好才是談判團隊最大的本錢"},{"start":28241.511,"end":28265.169,"text":"我同意院長但是同樣站在監督的角色我也期待也認為行政院在對美談判的這個過程當中可以講的可以公開的應該要講清楚我覺得第一個這叫安民心第二個這個是讓我們國人知道我們的談判團隊是如何的辛苦因為我剛剛光是聽到"},{"start":28266.61,"end":28286.002,"text":"我們到底實體去談判了幾次跟線上視訊的會議談判了幾次在野黨委員搞不清楚如果連在野黨的委員都搞不清楚那表示一般國人也搞不清楚甚至產業界也搞不清楚我的意思是說我們該讓人民知道的就該讓"},{"start":28287.563,"end":28301.997,"text":"他們知道而且要清楚明白的講清楚我們實體的去談判四次就是四次有誰去每一次到底談判的團隊到底有誰又是談了相關可以公開的議題第二個"},{"start":28302.557,"end":28318.619,"text":"我們視訊會議有三次三次我們又談了哪些又該是怎麼樣的讓階段性的讓國人清楚讓產業安心我覺得這個在我們作為監督的角色希望行政院跟談判團隊可不可以"},{"start":28319.98,"end":28344.013,"text":"我們一定說明更清楚視訊會議是八月以來三次之前加起來十幾次所以剛剛在野黨委員所得知的跟現在講的你看次數又不一樣副院長有意思強調八月一號回來以後是三次報告委員四月以來四次實體每一次是數天然後中間有十次的視訊會議那我剛說明的三次是八月一號"},{"start":28346.074,"end":28369.789,"text":"這個我們7月31號公布台灣階段性對等稅率之後我們又進行了三次的視訊會議那我們想每一次的實體會議都是我跟楊政委還有跨部會的代表一起去那每次會他們都有發布新聞不過盧委員所說的我們會善盡說明的責任我想我們會持續的向國會跟社會來說明談判的進度我覺得這是一定要的"},{"start":28370.509,"end":28393.218,"text":"不然會造成很多不必要的誤解譬如說我們台中是傳統製造業在這一次受美國關稅衝擊最嚴重的地方之前我也要請鄭麗君副院長到台中來開過座談會那時候還沒有啟動談判之前那產業界就非常的擔心那時候也謝謝鄭麗君副院長代表院長來到現場來"},{"start":28396.239,"end":28417.63,"text":"說明了一些我們可能會碰到的問題還有產業界提出的問題我們又該如何的有配套因應的措施我們台中現在不僅僅是美國關稅的問題加上匯率的問題雪上加霜 雙重壓力造成我必須要讓院長跟各位知道這個無薪假"},{"start":28418.45,"end":28444.895,"text":"越來越多製造業減班休息創新年來的新高這個都是勞動部的一個數字今天的自由時報也是大篇幅的報導台中的工具機模具塑膠製品電子材料等傳統製造業大受影響事實上我必須說不是只有這些產業只要涉及所有出口的產業都非常的"},{"start":28445.655,"end":28471.443,"text":"民不聊生我要用這四個字為什麼要用這四個字因為在我台中的很多的產業還感受不到政府的輔助的措施到底能不能讓他們挺過這一次的難關院長這個就是說我是一個監督的角色我也必須要務實的把這些問題帶給行政院行政院就應該要好好的對外說清楚我們有哪些的"},{"start":28472.123,"end":28499.993,"text":"輔助方案我們又能夠怎麼簡化有效率能夠讓這些產業中小企業及其勞工知道院長您上個禮拜有到台中來開過座談會座談會上各工協會的理事長幹部也都有提出一些問題雖然在現場的時間很短沒有辦法一一的回答但是我請教一下院長您上次來到台中跟各工協會一起在討論座談那他們提出的問題"},{"start":28501.033,"end":28517.979,"text":"有解方嗎中規矩向第一個我想大部分都提到了金融支持希望能夠給他們更多實質有效的金融支持這個回來我們已經請相關財政單位來做處理希望銀行能夠做一些有效的開放銀行會主委在這裡再來就是"},{"start":28518.699,"end":28545.397,"text":"申請的手續太過的繁雜我們也希望說表格要簡化第二個我一直要求經濟部從身份別來告訴你是什麼業者你是什麼身份你可以得到什麼樣的保障用這個方向來出發比他一個一個去查他能夠所有的產業支持的方案這樣可能比較有效如果你是中小企業你是手工具你是水母機你用這個身份別來告訴業者你這樣就可以清楚"},{"start":28545.737,"end":28572.293,"text":"而且現在還有一點必須要用產業鏈的一個概念來做輔導跟做補助我不能只有ABC我產業鏈裡面有可能它的協力廠商都是相關受到衝擊的那按照產業別之外還要用產業鏈的一個協力的一個團隊的一個產業來共同的來受到政府的補助或者是政府的支持我覺得這是很重要的一件事包括剛剛講的資金"},{"start":28574.714,"end":28591.687,"text":"彈性調度以及金融支持的部分主委你要不要補充跟委員報告我們這次設計的這個產業支持方案其實我們除了有個案申請外我們還有這個研發的整個多家提案的一個補助就是剛剛委員提到的就是整個產業鏈"},{"start":28593.008,"end":28608.549,"text":"整個供應鏈主委你剛剛講到研發兩個字我認為你要再回去調整現在受美國關稅跟不景氣的影響都已經衝擊很大了我們的企業端資方要在所謂的研發在投入資金對他們來講是難善加難"},{"start":28610.191,"end":28633.483,"text":"所以你的資金的彈性運用是要如何因應這一次美國關稅以及匯率的影響造成雙重的壓力所以經濟不景氣 沒有訂單所以他們維持他們員工的生計有困難所以他們企業的資金的調度需要政府支持我就來用這樣子的角度去好好調整你的金融的協助對策確實我們在鍾曉微的貸款計畫裡面"},{"start":28638.886,"end":28661.226,"text":"是有這樣的一個設計就是說我們除了新保金提高保證成數以外我們還有做利息補貼也可以讓中小企業可以減輕他的一個負擔院長我會問這一件事就在於我們過去對於這個中小微企業的一個金融支持我們綁了很多條件那如果我們這一次像今天的專欄報告我們這一次是因應美國的關稅的一個衝擊"},{"start":28663.127,"end":28681.878,"text":"這麼的嚴重的影響到國內的產業那也間接的直接的就影響到勞工員工那我覺得這樣子的資金的一個金融支持就應該要什麼應該要減變而且要大力的支持副院長來檢討答覆院長已經有指示重寬重減重塑"},{"start":28682.478,"end":28685.882,"text":"中小微的貸款最高額度3500萬然後在250萬以內利息減碼1.5%然後100萬以內保證成數是10成另外還有外銷貸款的部分每一家最高6000萬的保證額度保證成數是"},{"start":28701.481,"end":28721.828,"text":"這個九成五那也減免這個保證的手續費最長兩年那麼另外有兩項補助轉型的補助當然雖然有研發可是也支持轉型包含設備購置的補助每一家五百萬那剛剛委員提到供應鏈如果一起來的話申請的話可以最高聯盟四千萬那海外分散訂單"},{"start":28723.568,"end":28750.827,"text":"分散市場海外訂單每一家五百萬如果一起來的話聯盟申請最高兩千萬我想這些兩項補助兩項貸款這個是現在已經都在受理中的那院長也有特別指示這個重減重塑以外針對這個加總關稅以後稅率比較高以及面對競爭對手他的關稅比較劣勢的特定的項目我們再加碼給予特別個案的支持"},{"start":28751.274,"end":28777.758,"text":"我還有兩項 我希望舊貸不收新貸速審舊的貸款不會把它收回來在這個時候新的貸款加速審查院長這兩句話是重點但是我要請主委好好的要求銀行我們在實務面上看到中小微企業碰到的銀行來的壓力不太像是院長所說的這兩個原則主委來說明一下我想過去金融業過去面對到很多次類似的"},{"start":28778.779,"end":28796.952,"text":"這樣一個困境的時候都有採取類似的動作我想這次也不例外陳同剛才院長講的就是我們只要是你這個展期比我們到今年12月31號你只要繼續今年而且繳息正常了這部分我們會展延這個六個月絕對沒問題假設我已經有看到這個問題的話我們會來了解來督促我們銀行確實辦理"},{"start":28800.766,"end":28827.552,"text":"我跟你講實際的狀況跟你了解的可能有落差我是希望我們找時間會後再來好好討論我現在就要告訴你為什麼資金的調度跟金融的支持很重要我去爬梳了一下數據院長你看到你會嚇一跳我們今年6月份這是6月份的數據工廠歇業的數量比去年的同期多了174%"},{"start":28833.109,"end":28847.274,"text":"174%這個是從你們的資料調來的我必須講這個數字你可以再去double check但是以我在中部地區我台中我剛剛講產業鏈的一個關係我的選區是最多的協力的加工廠"},{"start":28857.777,"end":28881.973,"text":"你可以去我們各大這個工業區或是周邊零星工業區或是周邊區域去看一看這個歇業或者是這個門關起來沒有在運作的工廠廠房真的比以前多了很多那這個就是我剛剛講的很多工廠因為沒有訂單做事修山還好有的甚至叫做山修士"},{"start":28889.239,"end":28890.581,"text":"為什麼無薪假的人數會"},{"start":28892.683,"end":28918.185,"text":"創新高原因就在這裡那當然我知道我們勞動部部長你會跟我說我們有啟動一些的補助方案但是有很多中小微型特別是微型的加工廠他去申請的這個所謂勞工的支持補助方案的比例是不高的部長你可以回去用你的這個補助的一個數據裡面好好的去盤點一下為什麼"},{"start":28919.346,"end":28924.559,"text":"特別是微型的加工廠他們可以申請到政府的補助的比例是相對的低"},{"start":28925.492,"end":28954.852,"text":"跟委員說明其實現在我們從數據上面看到來申請的這個的減班休息的薪資補貼的大部分其實都是中小微的廠商中小微裡面我希望你能夠在進一步的去盤點中小微裡面的各自的申請比例是因為這樣子才能夠作為政策的依據我們是不是應該更大力的支持微型加工業是那沒有錯比方說的確現在"},{"start":28955.672,"end":28977.304,"text":"我覺得比較具挑戰比較辛苦的就是比如說金屬製品加工跟工具機跟機械業其實蠻多確實都是在中部的地方那這裡面它的確它有過去跟中國在搶單的問題但也有現在關稅跟匯率同時遇到的問題所以我們現在在我們的薪資補貼的範疇裡面其實我們把它放寬了現在放蠻寬的"},{"start":28978.396,"end":28992.407,"text":"是把匯率的影響也放進來不只是關稅的影響我們就覺得不用再特別一定要去區別你是匯率還是關稅所以這個就請你大力宣傳有很多中小微企業是不知道的我最後的時間我是建議院長長期的基金來扶持還有這個勞工因為中小微型企業養了我們絕大部分台灣的勞工"},{"start":29007.984,"end":29030.883,"text":"好 謝謝何委員 謝謝卓院長還有江副院長下一位請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝院會主席 江副院長各位同仁 新委員會的朋友 楊瓊英發言首先邀請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":29044.231,"end":29059.195,"text":"我今天聽你一直強調說有跟在野溝通那麼我要請問一下在整個關稅的談判跟議題上面行政院有跟在野黨的黨團來溝通嗎溝通了什麼事請說說明"},{"start":29060.689,"end":29087.135,"text":"我們有一次曾經邀請黨團的幹部去到行政院就這個內容告訴大家當時我們能夠向黨團說明的部分但是我們也希望黨團在聽取說明之後有些很重相關的內容不宜對外宣布所以我們有這個過程但是內容還是在國際談判慣例當中我們還要謹守分際今天算是一個正式公開的說明"},{"start":29087.575,"end":29097.568,"text":"但也有所保留這很抱歉 容許我們一定要做有所保留等到協議達成的時候我們一定向國人跟國會來做說明也一定送請國會來審議"},{"start":29099.468,"end":29122.203,"text":"好 到目前為止本席跟人民我們似乎感受不到行政院有想溝通跟介入訊息在可以介入的範圍內因為大家幾乎都是瞎子摸象到現在你產業的座談會有開一場一場的座談媒體報導也一直在跟隨到底我們的方向"},{"start":29123.064,"end":29143.557,"text":"就是看不到行政院對於我們整體性的一個關稅它能夠維持多久我們的農產品會不會全面的開放還是如此如何美豬美牛會不會鬆綁對我們產業整個的衝擊有多大這一些的方向我們看不到"},{"start":29144.057,"end":29166.736,"text":"因为我们看到日韩在谈判的时候他们可以揭露的时候他们就给国人报告而且反光我们呢到底我们的叠加关税到底是怎么回事呢总统在八月份的记者会都还没有公开说明所以这次我论点是认为内部的沟通他是不及格的"},{"start":29167.316,"end":29181.923,"text":"那所以本席要再請教在上午你有說有跟執政黨的黨團溝通那請問在四月份我們關稅風暴到現在四月份就等於是四個月後才到立法院來報告"},{"start":29183.044,"end":29202.664,"text":"我要請問 你透過你們執政黨 民進黨黨團到底溝通了什麼因為我們看到在8月10號的時候在立法院協商的時候整個執政黨的幹部都還在反對行政院到國會來報告"},{"start":29204.145,"end":29233.215,"text":"他們說要等到整體的結束之後才能夠來國會來報告而且還嗆說如果有透露那談判不順的時候那談判不好的時候要嗆民 嗆在野黨所以你們要負責所以本席要請教本席要請教也就是在整個談判性的一個過程當中我們看到"},{"start":29235.236,"end":29255.783,"text":"如果說談判不順是要在野黨來負責嗎那行政部門不用負責嗎我請首先我要謝謝委員會參加過好幾場的產業座談會你也看得出來我們座談會當中那種互動的模式跟我們聽取業者請針對本席的提問因為你說透過你們執政黨"},{"start":29259.866,"end":29274.005,"text":"黨團來做溝通8月4號還在嗆還說破壞進行中的談判為談判製造更多不可控的因素早上那段話是說有委員說我們這一年當中"},{"start":29275.467,"end":29304.41,"text":"在野党团互动几次我说有两次以上是到行政院来平常是透过党团来跟朝野党团所以我告诉你因为你四个月后才来报告那就是说因为你有请执政党的党团来做沟通那我也坦白告诉你8月4号还呛在野党甚至说谈判不顺你在野党必须要负责那我请问卓院长谈判不管如何怎样不顺也好 顺也好"},{"start":29305.231,"end":29309.273,"text":"那就成了你的執政黨黨團這麼樣的嗆你認為是在野黨要負責嗎還是你執政黨的"},{"start":29314.045,"end":29338.53,"text":"政府不用負責 請做說明既然叫執政黨負起政治責任更多的責任都是應該的好 就你一句更多我們繼續討論我非常的樂見我非常的樂見您今天到立法院來做報告我們在台中的時候你也告訴本席一句話只要國會來邀請你都非常樂意立即來報告所以也就是"},{"start":29339.19,"end":29357.78,"text":"原本的執政黨黨團一再的抹黑在野黨這是不對的這是不對的在此時我們必須要一起來努力我跟執政黨黨團之間並沒有做這樣的要求說延緩來報告我們都期待儘快依照大約你沒有這樣請他們延緩他們這樣子8月4號這個錄影錄音這樣子去嗆"},{"start":29364.184,"end":29387.999,"text":"你應該要回去好好的跟他們溝通你必須要跟他們好好的溝通所以你要必須跟你的執政黨的黨團去溝通那麼過去駐美代表沈旅雄先生他講了一句非常有名的這個名言他說什麼都問美國人這就不是"},{"start":29389.252,"end":29411.403,"text":"外交官所以相對本校告訴你一句話什麼要求你都接受這也不叫談判代表所以我認為我們國會的監督跟人民的聲音可以作為你在談判的一個後盾你認為政府會好好的重視跟善用國會的監督跟人民的這個聲音嗎會 我們會聽取業界當然我們也會重視國會給我們任何的建議"},{"start":29417.079,"end":29446.399,"text":"我想這個都會在談判當中我們可以轉化成一種談判內容甚至一個對我們的鞭策跟助力好 謝謝卓議員長你跟本席的論點是一樣也就是國會的監督跟人民的聲音是作為談判非常重要的後盾此時此刻我們必須要好好的去團結應對我們這個關稅所以接下來本席要請教對美的加大投資美方的期待到底是什麼"},{"start":29447.8,"end":29461.714,"text":"所以本席要請問剛剛我們說了照單全收他就不是談判我要謝謝鄭副院長帶著團隊到美國去但鄭副院長告訴我們美國的財長說他可能暫時性的會到10月"},{"start":29462.728,"end":29480.636,"text":"同時他們每一次的見面都會擴大這個期待那到底請教目前談判到現在他們還有沒有擴大期待請做說明先回應剛剛委員所提我在第一輪實體磋商的時候就跟美方說我國的法律有國會保留條款"},{"start":29481.596,"end":29495.847,"text":"我把相關的條約締結法的法條都給了對方所以很清楚的這個談判的結果的協議主要是要送交大院來審議我想我們有非常清楚表達剛剛回應委員這第一個問題那第二是這個我們談判"},{"start":29498.69,"end":29514.447,"text":"這個當然希望是要降關稅那降關稅我方也的確希望平衡貿易逆差來說服美方降關稅但是我們也有所原則我們在這個國民健康糧食安全產業利益的原則之上來跟美方來進行磋商"},{"start":29515.368,"end":29544.043,"text":"那至於委員所垂詢的有關後續的談判過程當中涉及供應鏈的部分232條款跟投資的部分目前還在談判中所以目前還在談判中針對本席的問題提問目前因為您說每一次見面都會有擴大的期待那目前在談判的當中我們還是進行我剛剛所謂的每一次見面都會擴大期待指的是說隨著因為過去幾個月談判美國是跟各國在談判的"},{"start":29544.963,"end":29565.876,"text":"請針對本席的評論那是不是到目前為止還有擴大擴大的期待有沒有目前我們正在磋商的就是供應鏈的合作跟爭取232的優惠因為我們也想要了解美方232關稅的走向你的回答讓我們清楚知道還是有"},{"start":29566.836,"end":29582.848,"text":"還是有所以本市要請教市場開放跟對美的開放投資那這個是國人非常非常的關心因為就陳柏霖剛才所說的投資是不能無端的一個浪費尤其在我們食安方面我們更要謹慎絕對不能退讓這個是我們非常重要而且針對於我們條約締結法"},{"start":29588.832,"end":29615.119,"text":"第三條第六條第七條第八條的一個規定那麼必須要送到國會跟國會相關要送到國會剛剛你也應許會送到國會就誠如總統所說的跟這個國會有相關的也一定會到國會來做審議國會的這個審議跟全民的審議這是我們有第一次就跟美方來表明我國有國會保留相關的法律規範"},{"start":29616.379,"end":29630.324,"text":"所以本席要告訴你我們都知道我有一句話如果有不對再請副院長能夠來修正就是雙方技術性的磋商我們就關稅非關稅貿易障礙貿易的便捷化還有數位經濟還有產業的供應鏈的韌性還有經濟安全這幾個大項"},{"start":29636.601,"end":29651.926,"text":"都是固定的但內容因為美國隨著跟其他各國的談判有一些動態的變化所以他一直在調整這些動態的變化我想我這樣的陳述第一線應該也是謝謝你補充的陳述那本是要提醒政府因為我們看到日本 韓國"},{"start":29654.636,"end":29675.731,"text":"歐盟他們怎麼做呢他們要三年購買7500億的能源他們要投資美國6000億的美元日本5500億投資韓國3500億而且要加能源1000億4500億但是我們看到我們跟他的人口跟GDP日本他們的GDP4.7兆"},{"start":29677.572,"end":29693.399,"text":"他們的人口1.2億大於我們的5倍韓國他們1.7兆他們人口5100億大於我們的兩倍如果我方也要要求被要求也是數千億你認為對台灣是公平的嗎"},{"start":29694.019,"end":29706.093,"text":"任何有利於我方談判的論述我們都會加以運用那我早上有回答其實我們期待的是一個雙方互利互補雙贏的供應鏈合作我們也一再的強調我方供應鏈的價值"},{"start":29708.936,"end":29717.846,"text":"非常重要因為我們的產業跟我們的民生非常重要所以本下要請教台積電的1650億有包括在你預計要投資美國的數目裡頭嗎報告委員 台積電宣布當時1000億的投資其實在我們談判之前"},{"start":29728.037,"end":29751.375,"text":"這到底這些算不算他目前1650億是應許了甚至還要加碼所以台積電的投資會不會算在你談判的投資額裡頭會不會目前我們民間公司的投資規劃是民間公司他們的決策那當然這個我們現在談判還在進行當中我們談判還在進行當中我想我現在這邊任何可能大家臆測的數字"},{"start":29752.856,"end":29767.142,"text":"我們不希望來增加成為談判桌上的變數所以請容許委員讓我們有一定的空間我們的產業跟人民的民生非常的重要所以最後我們說現在政府談判到總結會議我們還要這個總結會議這個時間到底會撐多久"},{"start":29772.805,"end":29788.203,"text":"那麼同時在總結會議的時候我們的產業我們的疊加關稅到底可以撐多久還是誠如財長所說的暫時性的還要等到10月到底我們一個月會損害多少兩個月會損害多少我們這產業等不及"},{"start":29789.384,"end":29801.499,"text":"我要給左軌報告 換我給你報告因為很緊張我們的工具機 手工具機這一次談判最嚴重的就是我們中部地區包括自行車業所有的產業首張起衝企業衝擊了連帶我們整個"},{"start":29806.625,"end":29829.668,"text":"勞工的公司全部影響到這個是非常嚴肅的一個議題到底我們對這些產業我們要怎麼樣協助所以你們有沒有評估你現在報告的都是目前的形態但是我們的廠家已經很多到期的廠房不敢租到期的倉庫也不敢租我也不敢接單我不知道未來是怎麼樣"},{"start":29830.609,"end":29855.351,"text":"所以這樣的樣態讓人民非常的辛苦有三個塊第一個談判趕快定案下來跟美國的談判定案下來第一個塊我們送交大院的任性條例的修正草案能夠盡快審議把它定下來第三個塊修正之後行政院用最快的速度編特別預算通過之後就能夠廣泛的對"},{"start":29857.044,"end":29881.649,"text":"產業來做支持所以一定要快快快你這麼回答我們針對關稅的衝擊產業勞工都雙雙的重擊我們看到台灣關稅高於日韓台灣的產業競爭力跟毛利都雙數物價指數高 毛利少所以等於它的競爭力就少了在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教"},{"start":29882.449,"end":29897.796,"text":"很多的像我們這個工具機他說我不敢去參展了所以本期在經濟委員會也一再強調我們必須要協助我們的產業趕快去參展今年九月的漢諾威的工具機展我想經濟部這邊會可以有全力的支持"},{"start":29898.636,"end":29915.883,"text":"一定要大力的支持本期在經濟委員會跟卓魁也一致的吶喊是 剛才我還報告我們9月份漢諾威展已經跟工具機產業工會已經在討論要怎麼樣去成立一個台灣館所以我想這個部分我們是帶著產業一起到這個德國那邊去做"},{"start":29916.503,"end":29935.191,"text":"因為要拿到訂單他們非常的勇敢所以政府我第一時間就吶喊一定要好好協助我們的產業到全世界各國去參展這非常非常的重要所以一定要落實到卓葵會落實到嗎都在我們的這個支持方案裡面聯合的產業的聯合參展"},{"start":29936.482,"end":29964.491,"text":"幫他開拓多元的市場以及用台灣SELECT 台灣的品牌來推動台灣的優質產品所以本期再一句話針對我們的產業民生一定要顧好好 我們一起來合作 謝謝好 謝謝王委員謝謝卓院長下一位陳培宇委員之質詢以書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報下一位請劉許體委員質詢"},{"start":29975.425,"end":29992.355,"text":"謝謝主席 卓院長有請請卓院長備詢你會不會變好院長午安 辛苦了不會"},{"start":29993.717,"end":30006.646,"text":"今年四月這本席跟你總質詢的時候我們一度認為搞不好是我們面對面的最後一次總質詢不會因為我們面對大罷免的壓力對不對你也面對改組的壓力但到了最後民意選擇讓我們活下來總統也選擇繼續賦予您革魁的權利"},{"start":30011.151,"end":30031.249,"text":"既然如此 我們就順著上一次總質詢的話頭繼續往下我們還是要靜下心來解決國家現在面臨最大的經濟衝擊這我想院長應該不會反對謝謝委員的體諒 我們一起努力好 我們收到了這段時間陸陸續續經濟部也好 行政院這邊也好提出了若干的所謂的產業衝擊影響評估"},{"start":30033.251,"end":30053.571,"text":"但我想內容上是有一些不足之處來跟院長做一下分享我想先請教院長這個從我們上次4月多那時候開始關稅變成一個重大議題之後你啟動了所謂的下鄉傾聽之旅要了解產業界的困境跟狀況請問這個產業之旅您下鄉了幾次去了哪些地方跑了多少縣市"},{"start":30054.512,"end":30064.746,"text":"次數非常多 建的產業更多我們有一次的產業我記得現場就超過十個以上的工協會跟產業的代表那總統跟我"},{"start":30065.273,"end":30089.58,"text":"有的是他單獨有的是我單獨有的是我們一起我們當時算超過20場那經濟部自己做的應該比這個更多來經濟部補充一下跟文報告我們大概有數十場大概有些是在我們經濟部裡面我們邀請產業工會來做談有些是我們到工會裡面去邀跟產業來一起來做談全國各縣市都去過了吧 院長"},{"start":30091.485,"end":30112.393,"text":"沒有到各縣市有些是請到縣裡面或是到官邸裡面去談那我要問關鍵的問題你下了這麼多箱跑了這麼多縣市開了這麼多次的會議請問產業界提出來的疑慮只有關稅嗎當然是涵蓋在關稅周圍的一些問題"},{"start":30113.779,"end":30132.474,"text":"不同的產業有不同的狀況我聽下來大多數幾乎是一半對我們金融支持的強化是普遍性的要求金融支持的強化就希望紓困 貸款等等對 貸款能夠更簡化 額度能夠更高我們從他提出來的問題來講就好了真的只有關稅的問題嗎"},{"start":30133.891,"end":30137.599,"text":"有沒有人跟你提台幣升值造成的衝擊有沒有產業提到這個外移供應鏈斷鏈的問題這些問題有沒有在這些會議裡面討論應該會有提到勞工不足的問題"},{"start":30145.072,"end":30174.612,"text":"勞工不足是本來就有 產業侮缺是從好幾朝以前到現在一直都存在的問題我要問的是你這一連串下鄉你都是在問台美這一波的貿易談判造成的衝擊除了關稅以外他們有沒有提其他的面向應該都有提到嘛我現在就擔心了為什麼呢因為我看你今天這一本今天你來國會專案報告我們都很高興總算大家要討論國政但是你今天這一本裡面我還是沒有看到除了關稅以外其他衝擊的部分"},{"start":30176.113,"end":30191.826,"text":"對不對你這一本幾乎都還是在寫關稅衝擊啊因為名稱就是關稅談判的進程方針原則我當然了解啦這就是本席要提醒你的地方就是說你政府在下鄉包含在溝通的時候你可能都做了很多的自己把自己框建住了嘛"},{"start":30192.066,"end":30213.595,"text":"我講自己把自己空間住比如說你看投影片上面寫的幾個產業比如說我就以4月13這一場來講你出席了毛豆產業座談會因為我一句話經濟部所自己辦的座談會他們有紀錄總統辦的座談會經濟部也有紀錄我知道我去的也有紀錄如果這個紀錄可以整理成冊委員都可以拿來參加我知道 我就舉例嘛你現在講說毛豆產業座談會為什麼"},{"start":30215.768,"end":30223.389,"text":"大家現在討論台美貿易談判之後的後續對不對我們可能社會大眾更關心的或者是各產業都焦慮的是市場的全面開放"},{"start":30224.729,"end":30244.804,"text":"那這受害的只有毛豆產業嗎不是 那是其中的一位當天其中的一位這個產業 這個業者還說他很感謝說政府還能夠在這麼比較小的產業毛豆產業還能聽他們的聲音你會特別去標註毛豆產業就是因為它是出口嘛它是受到關稅直接衝擊所以你這樣做當然是對的但我要提醒你的範圍不夠大"},{"start":30245.885,"end":30272.54,"text":"第二你好像談了一圈之後現在要進到國會來報告來討論的時候你的內容都還是圍繞著關稅這跟我們上次總質詢講的不一樣上次總質詢的時候本期就期待不只是關稅包含匯率的台幣的升值產業的外移要有全面性的衝擊影響評估是不是委員我們是沒有注意到還是我們誤會了今天的主題今天主題就是台美關稅談判的進程方針原則"},{"start":30273.957,"end":30300.615,"text":"你如果在這裡只是這樣子空間的話本席是覺得比較可惜啦對不起 我們可以把這個座談的紀錄會審之後給委員做參考應該要更詳細啦 這本席因為不只是今天這一本啦其實陸陸續續我們都有跟經濟部索要資料也就是說這段時間大家關心的東西但回來的其實都被框在關稅裡面更有甚者 比如在這裡面第十頁都還講說32%一來變成20加N比起四月初的衝擊還減緩五成"},{"start":30302.677,"end":30320.415,"text":"這個產業界看到這樣子的評論會很心寒因為衝擊絕對不會只有關稅我們更擔心的從頭到尾就是台幣升值產業外移開放市場你看各家媒體幾乎放在經濟或者是投板的是不是都談關稅也談 市場也談"},{"start":30324.299,"end":30341.577,"text":"匯率 對不對您剛剛講的那一段我早上特別放在第一個發言的時候我說關於進程的方面我先講到現在的進度再講到產業的衝擊跟支持再講到後面的各種這個談判的方針跟原則我是這樣順序下來的所以這個是現在的進度"},{"start":30343.578,"end":30369.573,"text":"請問台幣升值的問題產業外移的可能性以及另外開放產業的可能性是否納入了全面衝擊影響評估我們打算提供多少資源來解決困難還是說你有不同的時間表請你在這個議事堂跟大家說明一下我想這才是大家都關心的事情嘛這個談判過程沒有涉及關稅稅匯率的談判匯率議題沒有在談判當中我們在四月份的各種"},{"start":30370.353,"end":30395.729,"text":"低推估中推估高推估也沒有實際把匯率的變化算進去但現在我們知道業界因為匯率的這個變化有受到我們也沒有想像的這個衝擊所以我們在產業支持上面我們也予以增加那照剛剛央行總裁所說的現在的匯率比較趨於緩但是我們認為還是要彌補把過去那一段時間快速升值之後造成的問題能夠盡量把它淡下來"},{"start":30396.189,"end":30415.397,"text":"即便是波動他都對產業造成的衝擊他有不確定性不確定性就暫緩出貨等等對於某一些產業來講他就是立刻性的掉單所以我想匯率問題還是很嚴重的再來我要問開放市場的部分請問我們是要等到全部談判結束開放條件通通公開之後我們才來再一輪的座談嗎請問這樣子來得及嗎 院長"},{"start":30417.901,"end":30438.953,"text":"那個時候我們會針對問題的核心就是確定之後我們會針對特定產業衝擊受到大的產業我們優先會再跟他做一些了解不過請委員擔心這個敏感性的品項跟產業還有一些剛剛我們一直提到的國人健康跟糧食安全的我們會嚴守國家最大的利益來談"},{"start":30439.873,"end":30454.97,"text":"很好 這一句話本席覺得非常重聽我想這也是社會大眾都關心這也是本席這一場質詢後半段要深入探討的題目但我在這邊先提醒就是說這個衝擊影響評估以你政府目前提供的報告其實是完全不足以彌平社會的焦慮"},{"start":30455.59,"end":30484.529,"text":"特別是我們現在整個談判的過程還有太多的資訊沒有揭露連節奏跟時間表也都關在黑箱子裡面那當然產業界就焦慮嘛所以你能夠提供的資料越多越透明你剛剛講中低高那也僅限於關稅對不對開放市場它是不是也有中低高的推估這些相關的資料包含你跟各個產業座談的全部資料是不是應該做一個更詳細的彙整有一個更完整的評估報告其實我們都有在準備但是你也知道這種動態的變化一直在產生"},{"start":30485.81,"end":30512.908,"text":"4月2號到4月9號8月又到7月31號各種從32從10到20這樣一直變化我們也是隨之在轉變當中那現在我們比較穩定知道說暫時性既有關稅加20%這個暫時性關稅是可以有一段時間那我們希望這個時間能夠越縮越短盡快把它達成一個最終的協議這樣最好那我們就可以針對這個確定的案子跟產業的受傷受損我們全面來展開"},{"start":30513.809,"end":30538.2,"text":"好 我接下來要問一下有關於談判的一些細節所以請經濟部 應該是經管會對不對 請回我們有請鄭麗君副院長委員號這個 卓院長 鄭副院長這一段時間大家都對於政府完全拒絕透露任何談判的細節感到非常非常的焦慮你們現在還要堅持"},{"start":30540.04,"end":30560.662,"text":"所有事情都要保密嗎跟委員報告我們也並沒有說完全沒有透露每一次的實體磋商回來我們也都有說明談判的範疇跟相關的議題的確就每一項的實質的內容我們沒有辦法完全的揭露是因為談判還在繼續進行中抵定之前依照國際談判的慣例"},{"start":30562.621,"end":30580.163,"text":"我們暫時還不會對外面說明那現在看到各國在說明相關的談判條件是因為他們達成協議了雙方透過聯合聲明這一點我跟副院長看法不太一樣我舉兩個例子一個是日本的談判日本的談判當然就已經不再純粹只有關稅"},{"start":30581.104,"end":30603.599,"text":"因為大家都知道關稅只是工具嘛川普的工具他要用關稅去換別的東西所以這些背後的條件可能衝擊更大這卓院長上次我們都已經討論過了對不對那以日本來講他們其實開宗明義就講啊衝擊最大的兩個部門一個叫稻米 一個叫汽車嘛 對不對那我前一陣子日本的訪團還有來我們還有稍微針對這個事交換了一下意見他們對於稻米很有可能受到衝擊其實他們國內很早就知道啦"},{"start":30604.079,"end":30618.487,"text":"甚至對於從他們的談判代表來講他幾乎就是開牌啊因為那個就是我的核心利益我是寸土不讓的那後來他們談判也很有智慧嘛因為他善用了國內的壓力最後也談就雖然在稻米部門他還是增加了美國的進口對不對你也聽我把話講完"},{"start":30620.248,"end":30638.644,"text":"你先聽我把話講完他在談的過程中因為就是讓國內的社會他們的在野黨執政黨都知道稻米是重要的部門所以他用了這樣的底氣雖然到最後美國的進口量還是增加了但是他是用調整進口配額的方式也減緩了對國內產業的衝擊這是日本的玩法韓國是牛肉"},{"start":30639.324,"end":30656.156,"text":"那個也是攤拍完啊 對不對他們的貿易代表呂漢九就跟您的位置是一樣的他是拿著民眾示威的照片去跟美國人講這次我們受不了啊會動搖政權啊會危害長遠的穩定性啊所以他們在肉類方面美國的要求就沒有這麼多了嘛"},{"start":30656.856,"end":30681.221,"text":"這個東西都是他們都知道他們的社會也知道衝擊最大的部門是哪裡而且隨時保持政府跟民間溝通互相借力量去增加政府的談判籌碼我看日本跟韓國的歷史我就很擔心你們現在什麼都講沒事沒事然後什麼事都拒絕透露都保密協定難道不會給你自己還有談判團隊造成更大的壓力我們都是希望追求一個最好的一個談判的結果"},{"start":30681.809,"end":30699.86,"text":"所以有關剛剛今天一直重申的糧食安全特定的敏感項目等等等等我想委員給我們空間如果我們過度揭露那是不是最終會影響可能談判的結果所以我們在這邊也請委員能夠體諒我們是為了維繫一個最好的談判的結果"},{"start":30700.316,"end":30726.683,"text":"這一段時間一篇媒體報導讓產業界也好社會又再次燃起焦慮當然你們已經算是通盤否認這裡面的都不是真的因為這一篇獨家報導裡面講了其實就談到了大家真的很關心所謂的條件面包含說要投資2500億包含農水產品 汽車附屬產品甚至藥品還有所謂的檢疫流程等等幾乎是全面開放的一個狀態院長 副院長這個報導是真的嗎"},{"start":30729.41,"end":30756.448,"text":"今天因為也回答許多次這個報導是沒有跟經貿辦以及相關部會來直接確認的確很多項目因為美方他會把相關的關稅非關稅貿易障礙項目都在他都要綁在一起談的我問幾個社會上比較焦慮的幾個項目我只問你啦這些項目裡面你能不能守住你當初政府跟人民宣誓的四大原則包含國家利益的維護 產業利益的守護國民健康跟糧食安全的不妥協"},{"start":30757.028,"end":30774.68,"text":"對不對 這是你們當初設下的四大標準報告委員 這是總統給談判團隊四個最高的原則這就是政府的宣示嘛 對不對好 我現在就問啦比如說解決長期以來有關牛肉跟豬肉所有動植物檢疫措施問題請問 這樣跟我們的守護國民健康有沒有衝突"},{"start":30775.526,"end":30793.32,"text":"我們在這個題目上會不會讓步美方他每一年都會公佈相關NTE我想這些項目都在他的非關稅貿易障礙的報告上面但是我們就是以這個原則來進行談判所以這部分我們是不會讓步的對嗎我們是以這個原則來進行談判所以我想最終結果"},{"start":30794.521,"end":30815.269,"text":"達成協議之後我們會對社會來說明但是在這個過程當中我們當然是要希望在這個原則爭取我們最大利益的空間嘛所以還請委員給我們一些空間因為我當然會給你空間你只要能夠堅持四大原則其他的都是空間不是嗎但我現在問的是我要再問一個問題我跟你講簡易是一個例子嘛"},{"start":30815.649,"end":30826.988,"text":"另外我要再問如果他真的要求農產品的全面開放還有汽車及附屬品的全部開放化學品 化妝品 藥品的全部開放請問這跟產業利益是否有違我們如何守護"},{"start":30828.869,"end":30853.779,"text":"報告委員剛剛你有一句話我必須再修正你說我們一直告訴國人都很好都很好我們沒有這樣講過所以我們當初是用高推估4月2號之後我們用高推估就表示說如果出現這個狀況政府要用什麼力道來支撐產業所以我們沒有說談判會沒有事但是我們希望政府的支撐讓產業能夠健全起來今天時間比較有限所以不好意思我沒有辦法讓你回答太久我就問這一篇報導的這些項目"},{"start":30855.76,"end":30877.852,"text":"哪一些跟這四大項目有違啊你是那些類別裡面項目都非常多像他剛舉的有一些類別裡面也有本來零關稅的部分也有非零關稅的部分所以它是一個範疇那在範疇裡面我們當然就是要進行整體的討論這整篇報導沒有跟你核實但是這些項目跟你四大原則有抵觸的時候你會不會堅持我就這樣問這個問題就好"},{"start":30878.892,"end":30889.501,"text":"這要看我們整個談判我們當然要追求降稅嘛我們要一定平衡貿易逆差但是我們也要堅守一些原則這個就是談判的一個目標我們就是要全力達到這樣的一個目標"},{"start":30901.806,"end":30923.865,"text":"包委員會本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢謝謝卓院長、政府院長及相關部會首長列席答詢做以下之決定一、將各委員發言紀錄及書面質詢函送行政院請就未答覆部分予以書面答覆二、已提出之書面質詢尚未刊登公報者一律補刊"},{"start":30925.334,"end":30939.711,"text":"報告委員會8月26日星期二 上午9時繼續開會進行行政院院長等列席報告114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案編制經過並被質詢現在休息"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}