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因為大型的冷庫不好經營他要跨區域 跨品項 還要跨內外銷我們屏東那麼多包罩的國品我們的產季也不到半年另外半年那個冷庫不能閒置所以他閒置的時候沒有外銷的時候當然他做內銷 內銷給誰給全聯 給家樂福他們的國品也是需要冷鏈的所以大型的集中的冷庫不用多但是院長部長"},{"start":526.153,"end":548.26,"text":"還有沒有出到冷庫在計畫當中產地型的冷鏈系統這是我們在建構整個冷鏈網絡裡面一個非常重要的是產地型的冷鏈它最大的收益者就是農民因為農民只要有產地的冷鏈只要是小型的它可以解決田間樂它可以讓產品可以在傳統市場它可以讓運輸本來5天它可以放到10天"},{"start":548.88,"end":560.331,"text":"我們的芋圓,我們屏東各地的芋圓,沒有太多芋圓,芋圓都不會那麼漂亮,但是如果五天煩惱沒收到,你就滅掉所以說風修的時候,煩惱就等你下去,如果這個介紹不太好,你放三天你就撞不掉,所以院長知道齁"},{"start":566.337,"end":580.722,"text":"所以產地的冷庫對農民很重要但是產地的冷庫他沒有辦法跨品項他沒有辦法跨區域他甚至不能跨內外交他要跨什麼平常有生產季的時候兩個月四個月農用平常怎樣商用"},{"start":581.77,"end":604.858,"text":"讓人家長期負擔、升遷期負擔、做團善的讓他拿來放但是如果讓人家拿來放做商用,你不能斷電那如果預防斷電,陳部長,冷庫如果預防斷電,斷電會壞掉啊?要用什麼?要用備援嗎?你是認為用發電機備援比較好還是用儲能?儲能設備儲能,但是儲能很貴,多數農民的斷電系統就是柴油發電機"},{"start":606.178,"end":629.232,"text":"那現在如果我們要廣設這些產地型的冷庫,可不可以把儲能列為它的附屬設施?以我個人的判斷應該是可行的一個方式應該是可行的,部長,滾部長,如果儲能業者他除了做冷庫的不氮電設施,他也可以兼做當地區域的光電的儲能來調節電網,你覺得有沒有幫助我們電網的韌性?"},{"start":632.054,"end":653.997,"text":"是有幫助啊 是的他如果參與我們那個蓄量對 院長請指示經濟部跟農業部就我們農地設的冷庫它所附設的儲能是不是可以同時間做我們電網當中調節韌性的儲能好不好農業設施包括這個冷卻設施它已經附屬是可以發展這個光電"},{"start":655.178,"end":670.236,"text":"已經可以發展光電如果加上光電的儲藏只能用在頭頂上的它不能用別人的它加上儲能的話會更好好 那就是院長的意思那兩位部長可以回去研究一下好不好我們會來仔細的規劃來再往下看所以現在我們往下說電網"},{"start":671.701,"end":689.048,"text":"院長過去我們的台電它的電網是它做發電端也是它做大概只有兩位數的發電廠用戶端上百萬上千萬它的電網的膚色就要配合的都市計畫暴露所以過去台電它的用電戶的電網很順"},{"start":692.277,"end":711.271,"text":"路開到哪裡?住宅區、工業區、商業區開到哪裡?它電就送到哪裡?那這個電網設施包括什麼?一次變電所、二次變電所、配電所還有匯線但是現在發電的地方現在不是只有二位數、兩位數的電廠現在很多光電廠都在哪裡?不在都市計劃區域"},{"start":712.712,"end":738.168,"text":"這些電廠台電還要用電網去把他的電接過來所以台電就沒有辦法按照道路規劃他坐餐廳沒幾條路啊電網要怎麼設往往設的潰線設的深壓站光電者就開始搶那個配線的容量院長知道齁那怎麼解決怎麼解決解決的方式就是怎樣他有些弊端就是先唱先贏先唱先贏造成很多的浪費"},{"start":739.329,"end":762.953,"text":"光電的開發商,他可能為了要搶得虧線,他要先到台電去放保證金如果時間到,他沒有辦法整合,他就要讓給第二名,然後他的保證就沒收了那第三名沒有拿到虧線的,明明整合好了,沒有虧線他也沒有辦法發電所以可不可以請院長指示部長,台電可不可以先去預化往下看就是說這個虧線容量的搶奪往下看"},{"start":763.473,"end":769.129,"text":"就是能夠超前部署,這樣的話我們土地開發井然有序,公共設施按時到位"},{"start":770.56,"end":794.856,"text":"部長,我剛剛跟你提過,您覺得台電是不是要為了未來的電網的韌性,我們對於發電端的電網的配置要及早做規劃,讓這些發電業者可以有所遵循,部長覺得怎麼樣?我們嘗試的來努力看看,至少從某一個區域先開始因為這個範圍實在是太大了,就是說這些光電業者"},{"start":795.697,"end":816.353,"text":"他什麼時候會在哪裡開發,然後開發跟地主談的怎麼樣部長我知道,你講的我都想過,這個業者要去想腦筋,但是可以開發各種不同的發電方式的都很有限啦現在哪裡開可以發都有限都算得出來,往下看我先考一下我們的孔部長,燃料電池儲能跟水利,它是屬於發電裝置還是電網裝置"},{"start":821.34,"end":826.005,"text":"除能本身它根本不會發電,它是屬於電網裝置但是水力發電過去認為是發電裝置但是它現在的抽蓄水力發電開始調節電網,它也可以設為電網裝置對不對"},{"start":836.297,"end":863.357,"text":"我們現在的燃料電池,燃料電池是什麼?燃料電池是用LNG去的只是它不是透過燃燒,它透過化學反應來產生電力它是發電裝置,它也可以成為什麼?儲能裝置,就是成為電網裝置好,那往下看所以我們能源轉型2.0,電網韌性很重要我們在發展自主能源有光電、風電跟地熱我們的這個兼具電網跟發電的水力或燃料電池未來會起一具的發展"},{"start":863.777,"end":889.596,"text":"那至於氫能跟儲能也要事先配置但是我們知道現在燃料電池它發的單價很貴可是它有一個好處它在目前的都市計畫裡面它比儲能還容易找到位置放所以我們可能不知道未來在都會地區我可能不見得能夠放儲能但是我可以放什麼我可以放燃料電池那燃料電池它既然可以發電是不是可以列入台電的電網跟發電裝置的設備當中"},{"start":892.978,"end":915.152,"text":"是可以參與嘛 對不對因為他這個是表後的那我們現在是有一個他設置裝備的時候我們是有補助金額然後每一度事實上也有一些補助讓他覺得部長我知道你是講現在的辦法我現在要求的是你規劃未來新能源不要等到開始做了才發現法規沒有準備好"},{"start":915.492,"end":933.302,"text":"我可以跟你預告未來很多傳統都市地區不能設置發電廠的它都能設置燃料電池但它需要天然氣管那如果你天然氣管沒有裝它就不能發這樣會造成我們電網跟發電裝置的不匹配所以我希望說未來往下看就是說不要再說我這個地方"},{"start":934.863,"end":962.101,"text":"電網沒有設置連天然氣管也沒有設置那未來有人設的燃料電池他想成為供電跟台電來合作也做不到你瞭解嗎所以最後的結論最後結論時間的關係第一請農業部檢討法令同意農地上冷庫的負能設施剛剛答應了請經濟部檢討法令冷庫附屬的負能設施得參與台電的設電以最後有研發跟報告報告我就不講了特別是一個月請書面報告來 謝謝謝謝 麻煩請行政院"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:46:34.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:46:39.463000+08:00","text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:46:40.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:46:42.647000+08:00","text":"有請卓院長、農業部陳部長跟經濟部龔部長。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-24T15:46:42.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:46:43.088000+08:00","text":"麻煩再請卓院長、農業部、經濟部備詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-24T15:46:43.088000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-24T15:47:02.900000+08:00","text":"鍾委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱：院長好、兩位部長好。我的標題很簡單","start":"2026-04-24T15:47:02.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:47:12.591000+08:00","text":"「業者逐顆檢查、海關抽驗把關，產地設冷庫結合儲能增韌性，發展新能源需預劃電網配置」。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱：院長好、兩位部長好。我的標題很簡單","start":"2026-04-24T15:47:14.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:47:21.483000+08:00","text":"院長，我剛剛看到前面翁委員在質詢，我是覺得很辛苦，因為他一直要問陳部長，但又不給陳部長講。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱：院長好、兩位部長好。我的標題很簡單","start":"2026-04-24T15:47:21.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:47:27.351000+08:00","text":"陳部長，就你的了解，我們馬鈴薯進口，院長說要逐顆檢驗，到底是什麼意思？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱：院長好、兩位部長好。我的標題很簡單","start":"2026-04-24T15:47:27.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:47:28.914000+08:00","text":"是送到新竹的竹科去檢驗嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:47:32.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:47:35.114000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會能夠比較完整的說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:47:35.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:47:48.878000+08:00","text":"第一個部分我要說明的是，確保我們農業產業的環境跟國人的健康是農業部跟衛福部共同的責任，所以在邊境檢查上，我們一定是用非常嚴格的標準，甚至於比國外的標準還要高。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:47:50.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:48:19.107000+08:00","text":"有關於加工馬鈴薯的部分，我們是採用三階段，由兩個部會共同來做這樣的雙重把關，第一關就是在美國輸出前，美國的檢疫單位一定要確保沒有帶土、沒有帶病、沒有帶蟲，然後沒有腐爛，而且噴發芽抑制劑，有這樣的檢查以後，才能夠同意它從美國出關。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:48:19.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:48:35.181000+08:00","text":"到了臺灣是第二關的部分，是我們海關邊境的檢查，在檢查的時候，農業部門負責的是它本身的芽體有沒有超過標準，更重要的是它的病害跟蟲害，是否帶有這樣的病害或蟲害？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:48:35.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:48:42.849000+08:00","text":"如果有的話，病害的話是整批直接退運，蟲害的話會經過薰蒸。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:48:44.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:48:54.598000+08:00","text":"有關於芽體的部分，如果發現的時候，我們就會通知衛福部，同樣地，衛福部抽檢時有看到芽體，也會通知農業部，我們互相協同。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:48:55.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:49:02.603000+08:00","text":"有芽體的時候，衛福部就會做茄鹼的檢驗，如果檢驗出超標的時候，也是退運。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:49:03.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:49:26.882000+08:00","text":"所以在這樣的前提之下都是安全的，只剩下芽體過長，在過長的部分，業者會看它的實際情況，如果太多的時候，他可能會退運，但是如果他想要重新整理的話，他要提改善計畫書，改善計畫書就會選定他的指定地點，這些指定地點也要合乎我們的要求。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:49:28.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:49:42.556000+08:00","text":"如果確定可以重新選別，我們會把這個貨櫃封緘以後送到指定的加工廠，並在我們檢疫人員的監督之下開櫃，由業者用輸送帶去做選別。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:49:43.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:50:11.839000+08:00","text":"有的業者有自動選別系統，就能夠快速的選別，選別完了以後，我們才會核發檢疫證明，有檢疫合格證明，它才能夠進到後端實際的加工製造，所以院長所提到的逐顆檢查是指在加工廠選別的時候，業者一定是每一顆、每一顆都要去看，如果再讓檢疫人員發現有不合格的部分就退運。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:50:12.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:50:15.240000+08:00","text":"部長花了三分鐘，我用一張圖就講完了。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:50:16.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:50:21.683000+08:00","text":"你以為的逐顆檢驗是把一個貨櫃裡面的1萬顆馬鈴薯，一顆一顆挑出來看嗎？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:50:21.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:50:22.283000+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:50:22.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:50:37.227000+08:00","text":"世界上沒有人這樣做的，臺灣的鳳梨、芒果輸出到日本，也是一個貨櫃裡面挑幾件出來看有沒有蚜蟲、介殼蟲，對不對？對。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:50:39.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:51:02.547000+08:00","text":"如果是工業用、冷凍的不會有發芽的問題，剩下兩成零售的、整顆的就會先抽驗，抽驗如果不合格就請業者帶回去，他自己一顆一顆把不合格的挑走，他覺得都合格了，就送來再抽驗一次，如同補考，補考再考一次，通過就通過，不通過就全部退運，是不是這樣子？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:51:03.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:51:04.909000+08:00","text":"院長，我這樣講是不是非常簡單？","quality":0.308},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-24T15:51:04.909000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-24T15:51:05.909000+08:00","text":"是，跟委員報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:51:05.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:51:19.458000+08:00","text":"這是給你一個補考的機會，不是海關一顆一顆驗，而是如果業者覺得只是有些被你抽到了，可能沒有那麼壞，他把發芽的挑走，整箱再送檢，一樣都是合格的才會進來，結束。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:51:19.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:51:22.559000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-24T15:51:22.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:51:27.022000+08:00","text":"兩句話，因為業者這個行為是在海關的後續行為，屬於邊境檢疫的一環……對啦。","quality":0.677},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-24T15:51:27.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:51:36.559000+08:00","text":"第二句話，不管是部長的三分鐘，還是委員的一分鐘，都在昨天專報裡面的兩頁，兩頁都寫得很清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:51:36.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:51:38.500000+08:00","text":"我這個不用兩頁。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-24T15:51:38.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:51:42.521000+08:00","text":"剛剛其他委員沒有看、不想看、看不懂、不會問，就用這種叫罵的方式，也不讓部長回答，我覺得很委屈啦！","quality":0.61},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:51:42.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:51:47.523000+08:00","text":"我這一張授權給院長跟部長可以拿去用，一張圖就解決了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:51:48.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:51:54.009000+08:00","text":"再問一下部長、院長，我們最近好不容易不再是口蹄疫的疫區，有沒有覺得很振奮？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-24T15:51:54.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:52:00.075000+08:00","text":"感謝所有養豬農跟國人一起努力，也謝謝農業部做很好的政策宣導，還有……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:52:00.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:52:03.139000+08:00","text":"但是現在對岸又發生口蹄疫了，怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:52:03.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:52:03.899000+08:00","text":"陳部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:52:05.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:52:11.527000+08:00","text":"目前邊境的把關不只是非洲豬瘟，包括口蹄疫也是嚴格把關。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:52:13.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:52:18.236000+08:00","text":"針對這些高風險疫區，我們對行李一定是百分之百的抽驗。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:52:18.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:52:23.102000+08:00","text":"而且你還到屏東有養豬的地方去講習，對不對？是。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:52:23.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:52:23.963000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，有準備就好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:52:24.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:52:30.231000+08:00","text":"接著我要關心的是外銷鳳梨黑心的事情，不是黑心鳳梨，鳳梨為什麼會黑心？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:52:31.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:52:32.072000+08:00","text":"部長，除了……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:52:33.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:52:35.075000+08:00","text":"溫度的差異造成黑心。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:52:35.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:52:50.388000+08:00","text":"很好，外銷的鳳梨一定要冷藏，所以很多傳統果農如果沒有把鳳梨適當降溫，外銷業者送到消費地，譬如日本，打開的時候就發現黑心了，臺灣的鳳梨名聲很好卻因而被破壞。","quality":0.686},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:52:51.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:52:53.510000+08:00","text":"但是傳統市場會不會買到黑心的鳳梨？不會！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:52:53.510000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-24T15:52:55.772000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:52:55.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:52:58.853000+08:00","text":"因為傳統市場的鳳梨沒有經過降溫。對。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:52:58.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:53:06.077000+08:00","text":"但是有一種情況，為什麼我們那麼小心地設置冷庫，鳳梨到日本還是會發生黑心呢？","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:53:06.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:53:08.959000+08:00","text":"有人找出一個原因──用太多氮肥。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:53:09.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:53:12.902000+08:00","text":"為什麼用太多氮肥經過適當的冷存，還是會黑心呢？","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:53:13.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:53:28.800000+08:00","text":"因為農民為了讓個頭比較大，最後收成前會下比較重的氮肥，氮肥下得重，鳳梨長得大顆，在傳統市場賣相好，但是經過長期運輸到日本，反而就會產生黑心。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:53:29.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:53:29.902000+08:00","text":"部長，你知道這件事情嗎？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:53:30.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:53:38.624000+08:00","text":"我想要跟委員澄清，您說的黑心部分是在110年我們首次大規模輸出時發生的，現在已經沒有這個問題了。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:53:38.624000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-24T15:53:39.624000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:53:39.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:53:56.568000+08:00","text":"我的意思是，黑心的問題不是冷鏈的問題，有時候是因為把內需、內銷傳統市場的這些產品經過冷鏈送到外銷，所以現在我要講一件事情讓部長、院長知道，我們在屏東國際化的標裝廠是不是明年要開始啟用？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:53:59.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:54:07.749000+08:00","text":"當時設置這個就是要讓屏東的果品可以外銷，它很大，這個經營者其實是做品牌包裝。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:54:07.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:54:19.172000+08:00","text":"因為他做品牌包裝，他要求農民，既然鳳梨要外銷，就不要求大顆，不要下那麼多的氮肥，這樣冷庫才能確保送出的鳳梨不會黑心。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:54:19.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:54:20.292000+08:00","text":"院長，是不是這樣子？是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:54:21.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:54:22.373000+08:00","text":"所以要搭配。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:54:23.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:54:26.094000+08:00","text":"但是這麼大的冷庫需要每個縣市都有嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:54:27.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:54:27.322000+08:00","text":"不需要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:54:27.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:54:33.665000+08:00","text":"不需要，因為大型冷庫不好經營，它要跨區域、跨品項，還要跨內外銷。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:54:33.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:54:46.830000+08:00","text":"屏東八大果品的產季不到半年，但另外半年冷庫不能閒置，閒置沒有外銷的時候，它做內銷，內銷給誰？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:54:46.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:54:53.792000+08:00","text":"給全聯、家樂福，因為他們的果品也需要冷鏈，所以大型的、集中的冷庫不用多。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:54:54.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:54:57.894000+08:00","text":"但是院長、部長，還有沒有其他冷庫在計畫當中？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:54:58.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:55:03.695000+08:00","text":"產地型的冷鏈系統是我們在建構整個冷鏈網絡裡面非常重要的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:55:04.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:55:30.311000+08:00","text":"是，產地型的冷鏈最大的受益者就是農民，因為農民只要有產地的冷鏈，只要是小型的，它可以解決田間熱，它可以讓產品在傳統市場耐運輸，本來五天就可以放到十天，比如我們屏東高樹的芋頭其實不輸大甲，大甲的芋頭搞不好沒有比我們漂亮，但是如果放五天盤商不收走就會爛掉，所以豐收的時候，盤商就等你降價，如果你不想賣這個價錢，只要放三天，你就受不了，院長知道喔。","quality":0.665},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:55:36.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:55:45.440000+08:00","text":"所以產地的冷庫對農民很重要，但是產地的冷庫沒有辦法跨品項，它沒有辦法跨區域，甚至不能跨內外銷，它要跨什麼？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:55:45.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:56:01.853000+08:00","text":"有生產季的時候，2個月、4個月農用，平常就商用，給大的市場、生鮮市場、做團膳的，讓他們儲存，但如果你讓人家儲存做商用就不能斷電。","quality":0.509},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:56:01.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:56:05.775000+08:00","text":"陳部長，冷庫如果預防斷電，斷電會壞掉，要用什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:56:05.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:56:06.175000+08:00","text":"要用備援……儲能。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:56:06.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:56:09.876000+08:00","text":"你是認為用發電機設備比較好，還是用儲能？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:56:09.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:56:11.156000+08:00","text":"儲能設備。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:56:11.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:56:14.858000+08:00","text":"儲能，但是儲能很貴，多數農民的不斷電系統是用柴油發電機。對。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:56:16.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:56:22.302000+08:00","text":"現在如果我們要廣設這些產地型的冷庫，可不可以把儲能列為它的附屬設施？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:56:25.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:56:27.445000+08:00","text":"以我個人的判斷，應該是可行的一個方式。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:56:27.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:56:28.005000+08:00","text":"應該是可行的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:56:28.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:56:39.212000+08:00","text":"龔部長，儲能業者除了做冷庫的不斷電設施，他也可以兼做當地區域的光電儲能來調節電網，你覺得有沒有幫助到我們電網的韌性？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-24T15:56:42.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:56:43.175000+08:00","text":"是有幫助。是的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-24T15:56:43.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:56:47.700000+08:00","text":"他如果參與我們的需量計畫……對！","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:56:47.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:57:00.453000+08:00","text":"所以院長，請指示經濟部跟農業部，就我們農地設的冷庫所附設的儲能是不是可以同時兼做我們電網當中調節韌性的儲能，好不好？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-24T15:57:00.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:57:06.220000+08:00","text":"農業設施包括冷鏈設施，它已經附屬是可以發展光電，已經可以發展光電……","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:57:06.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:57:10.725000+08:00","text":"如果現在光電的儲能只能用在頭頂上的，它不能用別人的……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-24T15:57:10.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:57:12.147000+08:00","text":"加上儲能的話會更好，我覺得這是一個好的方向。","quality":0.45},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:57:12.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:57:14.770000+08:00","text":"好，那就是院長一句話，兩位部長可以喔？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:57:15.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:57:16.652000+08:00","text":"回去研究一下，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-24T15:57:16.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:57:17.894000+08:00","text":"我們會來仔細規劃。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:57:19.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:57:20.236000+08:00","text":"現在我們往下討論電網。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:57:21.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:57:47.140000+08:00","text":"院長，過去我們的台電，電網是它做的，發電端也是它做，大概只有兩位數的發電廠，用戶端上百萬、上千萬，它的電網鋪設就要配合都市計畫、道路，所以過去台電用電戶的電網很順，路開到哪裡，住宅區、工業區、商業區開到哪裡，電就送到哪裡。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:57:47.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:58:00.711000+08:00","text":"這個電網設施包括一次變電所、二次變電所、配電所還有饋線，但是現在發電的地方不是只有個位數、兩位數的電廠，現在很多光電廠都在哪裡？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:58:00.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:58:13.299000+08:00","text":"不在都市計畫區域，台電還要用電網去把這些電廠的電接過來，所以台電就沒有辦法按照道路規劃，那麼多田地沒有幾條路，電網要怎麼設？","quality":0.772},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:58:13.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:58:19.243000+08:00","text":"往往設了饋線、設了升壓站，光電者就開始搶那個配線的容量，院長知道喔！嗯。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:58:19.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:58:22.205000+08:00","text":"那怎麼解決？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:58:22.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:58:23.846000+08:00","text":"解決的方式就是怎樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:58:24.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:58:26.687000+08:00","text":"它有些弊端，就是先搶先贏！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:58:26.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:58:28.168000+08:00","text":"先搶先贏會造成很多的浪費。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:58:29.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:58:46.046000+08:00","text":"光電的開發商可能為了搶得饋線，要先到台電去放保證金，如果時間到，他沒有辦法整合，就要讓給第二名，然後保證金就沒收了，第三名明明整合好了，沒有拿到饋線，他也沒有辦法發電。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:58:46.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:58:49.469000+08:00","text":"所以可不可以請院長指示部長，台電可不可以先去預劃？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:58:50.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:58:59.109000+08:00","text":"就是有關饋線容量的搶奪能夠超前部署，這樣我們的土地開發井然有序，公共設施按時到位。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:59:00.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:59:12.868000+08:00","text":"部長，我剛剛跟你提過，你覺得台電是不是要為未來電網的韌性，對於發電端電網的配置及早做規劃，讓這些發電業者可以有所遵循？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:59:13.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:59:14.910000+08:00","text":"部長，你覺得怎麼樣？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-24T15:59:14.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:59:30.621000+08:00","text":"我們嘗試來努力看看，至少從某一個區域先開始，因為這個範圍實在是太大了，這些光電業者什麼時候會在哪裡開發，然後跟地主談得怎麼樣……","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:59:30.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:59:39.367000+08:00","text":"部長，我知道，你講的我都想過，這個業者要去傷腦筋，但是可以開發各種不同發電方式的都很有限，現在哪裡還可以開發？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:59:39.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:59:40.528000+08:00","text":"都有限、都算得出來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:59:40.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:59:46.333000+08:00","text":"我先考一下龔部長，燃料電池、儲能跟水力是屬於發電裝置還是電網裝置？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-24T15:59:46.333000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-24T15:59:51.400000+08:00","text":"它不是發電裝置……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:59:51.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:59:52.902000+08:00","text":"我來講答案好了，儲能本身根本不會發電，它是屬於電網裝置。對。","quality":0.654},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T15:59:53.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T15:59:56.005000+08:00","text":"水力發電過去認為是發電裝置，但是現在抽蓄水力發電可以調節電網，它也可以視為電網裝置，對不對？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T16:00:06.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T16:00:08.839000+08:00","text":"再者是現在的燃料電池，燃料電池是什麼？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T16:00:08.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T16:00:19.527000+08:00","text":"燃料電池是用LNG做的，只是它不是透過燃燒，它是透過化學反應來產生電力，它是發電裝置，它也可以成為儲能裝置，就是成為電網裝置。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T16:00:20.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T16:00:35.919000+08:00","text":"所以我們能源轉型2.0的電網韌性很重要，我們在發展自主能源，有光電、風電和地熱，兼具電網及發電的水力或燃料電池未來會齊聚發展，至於氫能跟儲能也要事先配置。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T16:00:36.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T16:00:55.032000+08:00","text":"我們知道現在燃料電池發電的單價很貴，可是它有一個好處，在目前的都市計畫裡面，它比儲能還容易找到位置放，龔部長可能不知道未來在都會地區不見得能夠放儲能，但是可以放燃料電池。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T16:00:55.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T16:00:59.576000+08:00","text":"燃料電池既然可以發電，是不是可以列入台電的電網及發電裝置的設備當中？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T16:01:02.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T16:01:05.740000+08:00","text":"是可以參與的嘛，對不對？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-24T16:01:05.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T16:01:16.366000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為它這個是表後的，而現在他們設置裝備的時候，我們是有補助金額，事實上每一度也有一些補助，讓大家覺得……","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T16:01:16.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T16:01:25.132000+08:00","text":"部長，我知道你是講現在的辦法，但我要求的是你要規劃未來新能源，不要等到開始做了才發現法規沒有準備好。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T16:01:25.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T16:01:38.760000+08:00","text":"我可以跟你預告，未來很多傳統都市地區不能設置發電廠的，它都能設置燃料電池，但它需要天然氣管，如果你天然氣管沒有裝，它就不能發電，這樣會造成我們電網跟發電裝置的不匹配。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T16:01:39.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T16:01:52.568000+08:00","text":"我希望未來不要再說某個地方電網沒有設置，連天然氣管也沒有設置，那未來有人想把燃料電池做為供電，要跟台電合作也做不到，你了解嗎？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T16:01:54.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T16:01:59.313000+08:00","text":"第一，請農業部檢討法令，同意農地上冷庫得附設儲能設施，這剛剛已經答應了。","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T16:02:00.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T16:02:03.315000+08:00","text":"其次是請經濟部檢討法令，冷庫附屬的儲能設施得參與台電售電。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-04-24T16:02:03.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-24T16:02:11.521000+08:00","text":"最後的部分我就不講了，可不可以在一個月內給我一份書面報告？好的。謝謝。","quality":0.516},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-24T16:02:12.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-24T16:02:18.021000+08:00","text":"麻煩請行政部門送鍾佳濱委員所需要的報告，謝謝。","quality":0.238},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-24T16:02:18.321000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-24T16:02:23.749571+08:00","text":"接下來請顏寬恒委員質詢，洪毓祥委員請準備。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}