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顧部長有請請顧部長"},{"start":11.059,"end":30.502,"text":"是 林委員好部長辛苦了這今天題目是創新小組然後應用新興科技那這個113年2月1號我們成立了DIO國防創新小組然後中間也一路跟比如說美國的國防創新單位他們叫DIU還有印太司令部等等持續來做交流合作"},{"start":30.982,"end":41.269,"text":"那我看一下你們報告上的內容大家都是希望嘛也許是要借財一下美國人的經驗跟軍民合作的部分來提升效率我這樣的解釋應該沒有背離大的方向嘛 部長"},{"start":44.468,"end":72.245,"text":"就是說我們會去探尋所有有關可以作為我們合乎我們防衛作戰需求的各種手段新興的這些科技的項目那後來就推動了這個114年2月24號首次在我們政府的電子採購網開始辦理這個公告也就是徵集民間企業去提供這個不同的方案比如說衛星影像的自動辨識智慧實境作戰系統倉儲管理系統等等"},{"start":72.585,"end":101.892,"text":"就當然就升級相關的軍備但是借重民間的力量開始增級的這樣的一個企劃書希望可以擴大運用民間的科技方案加速國防的創新跟應用好那我今天就就這幾個項目跟這樣子的一個題目做一下制度的比較這個部長這個美國的DIU就是說他們成立的這個目的是因為考量他們的政府跟他們的商用公司之間就是你政府機制總是比較慢課程比較多收到很多的監管跟監督等等民間有的時候科技發展是比較快的所以可以"},{"start":102.732,"end":128.446,"text":"這個合理的借重的話它可以提升相關的一個效率所以DIU它會徵求一些民間的好的idea那這好的idea之後我政府有一套完整的規制比如說我丟出我的需求公開徵求你的意見廠商可以來做報價然後我政府有很明確的權利義務規範我30天之內我要做這個審查嘛做專業的審查審查完畢之後有合格廠商然後我就可以進入原型合約的洽簽階段"},{"start":129.466,"end":144.396,"text":"然後也有很明確的交貨期程比如說我要做出一套新的東西借用民間的力量我可能要在兩年之內交付原型機然後我才會在審核之後再投入量產這是DIU要借重美國民間經驗然後去強化這個相關的他一套完整的作業流程"},{"start":144.756,"end":173.551,"text":"好那我們現在有DIO看起來概念上也許是要借財這樣子的一個模式那以剛剛我提的這三個案子他是按照美國這樣有一套完整的特殊的採購政策來做指引還是說我們只是按照一般的政府採購法做服務性採購然後先了解一下企劃內容再做定奪我們大概在從115年開始就是小量的採購大概有十案原型採購有三案那這些案子大概都是經過大家討論的會"},{"start":174.933,"end":195.096,"text":"有符合這個作戰構想跟作戰需求,然後經過這個評估之後來提出,然後最後到我這邊來提報之後我們再核准那我們116年,案項會更多,大概少量採購會有16案,然後這個原型開發會有4個案子這樣子"},{"start":195.762,"end":210.962,"text":"不是 我今天問的是制度上的差異啦制度上來講對 因為你現在我就問啦 那剛剛部長講了很多案前面做的跟未來要做的他其實本質上他還是就是照本來的政府採購的機制去走的嘛還是他有因為國防的特殊性 居民合作的特殊性我在制度上面有做特殊的設計"},{"start":212.537,"end":235.043,"text":"事實上就是說,我們用少量的採購來做一個驗測,這個驗測認為負責我們需求,這個跟過去我們直接進行建案有不同你直接建案規模就大,所以你現在等於是切兩段的意思,我先做一個小批量的採購,看看成效之後我再來考慮做這個事"},{"start":235.763,"end":252.163,"text":"我在考慮這個要不要引入所以這是我們國內的制度運作的模式嘛對不對目前對對對那因為我們還是要記預算的考量比如說115年我們還是要等總預算通過才能執行所以你的原則就借採了人家的經驗之後你只是說我做了"},{"start":252.763,"end":271.265,"text":"兩段的處理嘛我就先做小額的門檻低一點然後來做合理的設算但是我本質上我並沒有脫離本來的政府採購的相關的一些程序跟政策指導但部長我剛剛去提美國就是人家是有比較特殊的一套的政策設計在裡面也就是說我在做小額採購的同時我就已經預留了未來直接合作的空間嘛"},{"start":271.826,"end":299.731,"text":"這樣對於民間有能力的有創新的廠商來講他的誘因更大一點因為我如果通過他前面這個小量的這個階段的時候我對於後面直接簽約等等他是有明確的指引幾年之內我可以順利交貨我就可以取得比較大的訂單這樣子的話這些民間的廠商等等他才會有比較大的誘因去處理這件事那我們的政府現在有沒有打算要徹底的針對這樣子的特殊的需求去做制度上的專門的設計這是我今天要提這個質詢最重要的原因我聽聽國防部的意見"},{"start":300.61,"end":328.873,"text":"那你要先說嗎?可以可以,沒有問題的是,跟委員報告在這個原型開發的部分我們是仿照以及參考美國DIU的這個採購做法就像您剛才講的他們做open solicitation的時候走的這個程序我們是參考他們的方式所以我們的原開也會經過兩階段的這個公開首先就是請廠商提供他的proposal給我們他們認為可以的解決方案"},{"start":329.273,"end":344.555,"text":"然後第二階段經過一段的評審委員的徵選之後我們會篩選出部分的合格的廠商然後請他們再給我們細部的資料然後兩階段的做法是參考DIU的做法"},{"start":345.296,"end":358.936,"text":"那當然就是兩階段之後進行原型開發那原型開發原型成熟之後我們會經過驗證那這樣子的驗證過程如果確定他是符合我們需要後續的量產我們也會就是優先會考量"},{"start":359.958,"end":379.533,"text":"以上報告所以以你現在這個三個案子比如說衛星影像AI自動辨識擴增實境智慧作戰系統智慧化倉儲管理系統你現在只是徵求企劃書所以他只要提供proposal你這一段的招標權利義務就結束了嗎還是說他是這個企劃書小量生產驗證程序甚至是guarantee未來可能會有簽約是哪一種會應該會透過這個"},{"start":383.248,"end":400.18,"text":"最有必要的評選之後然後會選入一家然後來進行做這樣的原型開發對啊這是他得標嘛但我的意思是說他得標之後你的權利義務關係是什麼嘛他只要把計畫書提給你沒有沒有沒有他要進行開發還要進行開發嘛然後再進行驗證還要進行驗證對時間有沒有明確比如說我我之前因為你剛剛講都是參照DIU嘛DIU就是講徵求報價完合格之後"},{"start":407.485,"end":431.38,"text":"90天以內原型合約要下簽完畢12到24個月之內第一波的這個成績就要做出來然後我才考慮要不要簽大單我們在裡面的這樣一套設計裡面有沒有明定相關的期程有期程的規範那原則上當這個廠商獲得我們的標案之後原則上我們會希望9個月到12個月之內能夠完成他的原型開發所以他有9個月到12個月的原型開發嘛"},{"start":432.381,"end":456.206,"text":"那開發完之後呢,他比如說他後面有優先這個預約權嗎?或者是怎麼樣的制度設計嗎?我現在之所以要提這個,我並沒有在針對哪一個個案去談這個事情,而是純粹從制度設計上面的考量。我的意思是說,美國如果用DIU這樣子的一個邏輯去設計,一定是你通過了前面的考驗,我在你後面的時候我有優先選擇權。你的前面的驗證,某些層面你也是給社會大眾交代,我經過了一定的檢證,我對他有信心。"},{"start":456.886,"end":473.993,"text":"後面就在效率跟防弊之間他取得一個很好的平衡我們今天如果要學這一套的制度我是建議就給他徹底我前面做完符合哪一些嚴格的標準之後在一定的時間他做到了後面你就可以很大聲的跟社會大眾講這個廠商是我可以信賴的我們要把國防很多東西借用民間的力量然後把這東西徹底的發展出去"},{"start":475.573,"end":491.052,"text":"這樣子有心投入的廠商會非常認真努力的去做前段的工作為了達到後段的訂單但我現在擔心的是如果我們制度只差一半比如說我前面的事情做完了但我也沒有保障你後面的需求啊我後面又要經過重新的採購得標程序然後又奇奇怪怪的力量就跑進來了"},{"start":491.853,"end":513.022,"text":"結果變得很努力做事的人可能會因為制度設計的不完善而造成反淘汰的狀況這樣子當初軍民合作 刺激誘因的那個好的那個東西不見了這是本期現在提的質詢很重要的一個目標那現在的設計有沒有徹底還是說現在還在做調整有沒有一些改進的方向"},{"start":515.176,"end":533.729,"text":"您剛講的這樣的概念是我們原始的一個設計我們確實會希望在原開的時候獲得標案的這家廠商如果他後續在執行我們方案的時候能夠達到我們需求的時候後續的採購我們當然希望以他為優先但是在政府採購法的限制之下實際上量產的標案我們還是要會看當時的情況"},{"start":537.492,"end":555.229,"text":"符合限制性招標有些首次獨家等等的這樣的規範政府採購法規定可以這樣做那我們當然會優先那如果說做出來之後一年發現這樣子的技術其實很多廠商也都能夠做那我們還是會採公開招標的方式這就是本期今天要提的最重要的原因"},{"start":555.649,"end":577.316,"text":"部長因為我們現在就本期出錢的認識現在我們怎麼樣走採購程序我們還是要受到政府採購法的規範但政府採購法是工程會經濟部為主的這樣子的一個思考邏輯這樣子的一個思考邏輯他一定要確保公開啊他要確保公平啊確保不能排他免得他一天到晚有圖利對不對覺得國家從上到下這麼多的標案對不對可是國防採購它有它的特殊性"},{"start":577.856,"end":593.392,"text":"所以我今天為什麼是從制度面的角度去談這件事就是如果我們的國防政策要走一套特別的狀況那他就應該要有特別的政策設計跟制度設計也許是修法新的法令等等你才有辦法徹底的完成這件事情去提振國內的產業在這個軍用方面的這個參與度嘛"},{"start":596.835,"end":617.429,"text":"如果我們想很多這個方向也努力的往這個方向去設計但是制度規章還是受限於本來的政府採購法就會出現我剛剛講的狀況嘛我前面花很多時間的努力然後後面反淘汰或什麼等等變得政策因此而自然難行所以部長最後的時間希望他會思考一下既然要學也許可以學徹底一點我是國防外交的新人我什麼廠商我都不認識"},{"start":618.57,"end":637.395,"text":"所以我只有這個時候我可以很清楚的去談這個事情制度是不分廠商的但是政策如果明確如果這個東西政府採購法反而對於推動這樣的軍民合作造成了部分的障礙的時候國防部也要勇敢表達自己的立場去要求我們的整個政府單位去設計一套可以推進這樣子政策的一套採購的機制"},{"start":638.935,"end":654.63,"text":"這個部長有沒有這樣的打算或想法?是,我們會跟我們的採購室,然後從採購法的觀點來看,來做出符合這個法規,但是又能夠對廠商形成一定誘因的。那大致上可能會採取最有利標像這樣的方式。"},{"start":654.71,"end":677.883,"text":"當然你現行的規定都是這樣但我都鼓勵說國防部可以大膽一點嘛我們有時候大大講國防部很保守但我意思說如果真的國防迫切需要有未來發展的等等必要的時候專門設計一套合約的特別的採購流程這個本來就可以思考的啦好不好這請國防部裡面做一下研議可以嗎如果必要的時候我幫忙來談這個事我覺得都是很好的啊對我們會跟工程會來來研究一下對啦好不好好謝謝部長辛苦了"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:39:02.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:39:03.034000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請顧部長。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-27T10:39:03.034000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-27T10:39:13.420000+08:00","text":"請顧部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T10:39:13.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:39:13.660000+08:00","text":"牛委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:39:14.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:39:14.761000+08:00","text":"部長辛苦了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:39:15.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:39:32.482000+08:00","text":"今天題目是創新小組將應用新興科技，在113年2月1號，我們成立DIO國防創新小組，中間也一路跟美國的國防創新單位，他們叫DIU，還有印太司令部等等持續來做交流合作。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:39:33.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:39:40.687000+08:00","text":"我看一下你們報告上的內容大概就是希望，也許是要借採一下美國人的經驗，即軍民合作的部分來提升效率。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:39:40.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:39:42.989000+08:00","text":"部長，我這樣的解釋應該沒有背離大的方向吧？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T10:39:46.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:39:54.373000+08:00","text":"我們會去探尋所有有關可以作為合乎防衛作戰需求的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:39:54.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:39:55.033000+08:00","text":"需求的各種手段，對不對？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T10:39:55.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:39:57.134000+08:00","text":"所有新興的這些科技項目。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:39:58.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:40:23.227000+08:00","text":"後來於114年2月24號推動，首次在我們政府的電子採購網開始辦理公告，徵集民間企業提供不同的方案，比如衛星影像AI自動辨識、擴增實境智慧作戰系統、智慧化倉儲管理系統等等，當然就是為了升級相關軍備，借重民間力量開始徵集企劃書，希望可以擴大運用民間的科技方案，加速國防創新與應用。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:40:23.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:40:47.994000+08:00","text":"我今天就這幾個項目跟這樣的題目做一下制度的比較，部長，美國DIU他們成立的目的是考量他們政府跟他們的商用公司之間，政府機制總是比較慢，科層比較多，受到很多的監管跟監督等等；民間有些時候科技發展比較快，合理借重的話，可以提升相關的效率。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:40:48.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:41:26.376000+08:00","text":"所以DIU會徵求一些民間好的idea，有了好的idea之後，政府有一套完整的規制，比如我丟出需求，公開徵求你的意見，廠商可以報價，然後政府有很明確的權利義務規範，30天之內要做專業審查，審查完畢之後有合格廠商，就可以進入原型合約的洽簽階段，也有很明確的交貨期程，比如我要做出一套新的東西，借用民間的力量，我可能要在兩年之內交付原型機，然後我才會在審核之後再投入量產，這是DIU要借重美國民間經驗去強化相關一套完整的作業流程。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:41:27.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:41:45.385000+08:00","text":"我們現在有DIO，看起來概念上也許是要採用這樣的模式，以剛剛我提的這三個案子，它是按照美國這樣一套完整、特殊的採購政策來做指引，還是我們只是按照一般的政府採購法做服務性採購，先了解一下企劃內容，再做定奪？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T10:41:45.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:42:07.285000+08:00","text":"我們大概從115年開始，小批量採購大概有10案，原型開發有3案，這些案子大概都是經過大家討論認為有符合作戰構想及作戰需求，經過評估之後才提出，最後到我這邊來提報之後再核准。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T10:42:07.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:42:17.076000+08:00","text":"我們116年案項會更多，大概少量採購會有16案，原型開發會有4個案子。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:42:17.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:42:19.765000+08:00","text":"不是，我今天問的是制度上的差異。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T10:42:20.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:42:20.886000+08:00","text":"制度上來講……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:42:20.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:42:32.962000+08:00","text":"因為你現在……我就問，剛剛部長講了很多案，前面做的與未來要做，其實本質上還是照政府的採購機制，還是因為國防的特殊性、軍民合作的特殊性，在制度上面有做特殊的設計？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T10:42:34.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:42:48.161000+08:00","text":"制度上，我們用少量的採購來做驗測，這個驗測認為符合我們需求以後才……這個與過去我們直接進行建案是有不同。","quality":0.809},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:42:49.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:42:51.962000+08:00","text":"因為直接建案，規模就會大，所以你現在等於是切兩段的意思囉？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:42:52.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:42:57.023000+08:00","text":"先做小批量的採購，然後看看成效之後，再來考慮做這個事？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T10:42:57.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:42:59.265000+08:00","text":"對，我再來考慮要不要引入。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:42:59.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:43:02.048000+08:00","text":"所以這是目前我們國內制度運作的模式，對不對？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T10:43:03.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:43:08.156000+08:00","text":"對、對、對，因為我們還是要基於預算的考量，比如115年我們還是要等總預算通過才能執行。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:43:09.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:43:23.514000+08:00","text":"好，所以你的原則就藉採人家的經驗之後，你只是做了兩段的處理，先做小額的、門檻低一點，然後做合理的設算，但本質上並沒有脫離本來政府採購相關的一些程序及政策指導。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:43:23.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:43:58.890000+08:00","text":"但是部長，我剛剛提到美國，就是人家有比較特殊的一套政策設計在裡面，也就是在做小額採購的同時，就已經預留了未來直接合作的空間，這樣對於民間有能力的、有創新的廠商來講，他的誘因更大一點，因為我如果通過他前面這個小量階段的時候，對於後面直接簽約等等是有明確的指引，幾年之內可以順利交貨，就可以取得比較大的訂單，這樣子的話，這些民間的廠商等等才會有比較大的誘因去處理這件事，我們的政府現在有沒有打算要澈底針對這樣特殊的需求去做制度上專門的設計？","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:43:58.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:44:01.731000+08:00","text":"這是我今天要提這個質詢最重要的原因，我聽一聽國防部的意見。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T10:44:02.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:44:03.751000+08:00","text":"司長要先說嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:44:03.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:44:04.372000+08:00","text":"可以、可以，沒有問題的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"苗司長蕙芬","start":"2026-04-27T10:44:05.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:44:46.535000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，在原型開發的部分，我們是仿照及參考美國DIU的採購做法，就像您剛才講的，他們做open solicitation的時候所走的程序，我們是參考他們的方式，所以我們的原開也會經過兩階段的公開，首先請廠商提供他的proposal，給我們他們認為可以的解決方案；第二階段，經過評審委員的甄選之後，我們會篩選出部分的合格廠商，然後請他們再給我們細部資料，兩階段的做法是參考DIU的做法。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"苗司長蕙芬","start":"2026-04-27T10:44:47.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:45:02.438000+08:00","text":"當然兩階段之後進行原型開發，原型成熟之後，我們會經過驗證，這樣的驗證過程，如果確定是符合我們的需要，後續的量產我們也會優先考量，以上報告。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:45:02.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:45:14.548000+08:00","text":"所以以現在這三個案子，衛星影像AI自動辨識、擴增實境智慧作戰系統、智慧化倉儲管理系統，你現在只是徵求企劃書，所以他只要提供proposal，這一段招標的權利義務就結束了嗎？","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:45:14.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:45:21.513000+08:00","text":"還是從企劃書、小量生產、驗證程序，甚至是guarantee未來可能會有簽約，是哪一種？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T10:45:21.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:45:30.252000+08:00","text":"應該會透過最有利標評選來選入一家，再進行這樣的原型開發。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:45:30.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:45:31.152000+08:00","text":"對啊，這是他得標嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:45:31.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:45:34.094000+08:00","text":"但我的意思是他得標之後，你的權利義務關係是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:45:34.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:45:35.976000+08:00","text":"他只要把企劃書提給你，你審查完就結束了嗎？","quality":0.421},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T10:45:36.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:45:37.377000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，他要進行開發，再進行驗證。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:45:37.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:45:38.818000+08:00","text":"要進行開發嘛，還要進行驗證。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:45:38.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:45:39.078000+08:00","text":"時間有沒有明確？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:45:39.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:45:58.391000+08:00","text":"因為你剛剛講是參照DIU，DIU就是徵求報價完，合格之後，90天以內原型合約要洽簽完畢，12到24個月之內，第一波的成績就要做出來，才考慮要不要簽大單。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:45:58.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:46:01.693000+08:00","text":"在這樣一套設計裡面，我們有沒有明定相關期程？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"苗司長蕙芬","start":"2026-04-27T10:46:02.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:46:11.940000+08:00","text":"有期程的規範，當這個廠商獲得我們的標案之後，原則上，我們會希望9個月到12個月之內能夠完成他的原型開發。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:46:11.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:46:15.421000+08:00","text":"所以他有9個月到12個月的時間進行原型開發，開發完之後呢？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:46:15.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:46:20.642000+08:00","text":"譬如他有優先議約權或是怎麼樣的制度設計嗎？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:46:20.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:46:41.847000+08:00","text":"我之所以要提這個，並沒有針對哪一個個案去談這個事情，而是純粹從制度設計上面的考量，我的意思是，美國如果用DIU這樣的邏輯去設計，一定是你通過了前面的考驗，在後面你就有優先選擇權，前面的驗證，某些層面也是給社會大眾交代，經過了一定的檢證，我對他有信心，在效率跟防弊之間，他取得一個很好的平衡。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:46:42.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:47:03.461000+08:00","text":"我們今天如果要學這一套制度，我是建議就要澈底，他在前面的部分符合了這些嚴格的標準，在一定的時間他做到了，後面你就可以很大聲地跟社會大眾講，這個廠商是我可以信賴的，很多國防的部分，我們要借用民間的力量，然後把這個東西澈底發展出去，這樣有心投入的廠商會非常認真、努力地去做前段的工作，為了拿到後段的訂單。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:47:03.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:47:28.999000+08:00","text":"但我現在擔心的是，如果我們制度只做一半，比如說他前面的事情做完了，但卻沒有保障他後面的需求，後面又要經過重新的採購得標程序，然後又有奇奇怪怪的力量跑進來了，結果變得很努力做事的人可能會因為制度設計的不完善，而造成反淘汰的狀況，如此，當初刺激軍民合作誘因的那個好的東西就不見了，這是本席要提出這個質詢很重要的一個目標。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:47:29.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:47:33.401000+08:00","text":"現在設計方面是否有澈底，還是現在還在做調整？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:47:33.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:47:35.002000+08:00","text":"有沒有一些改進的方向？","quality":1},{"speaker":"苗司長蕙芬","start":"2026-04-27T10:47:37.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:48:14.927000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，您剛剛講的概念，是我們原始的設計，我們確實會希望在原開的時候獲得標案的這家廠商，如果後續執行我們方案的時候能夠達到我們的需求，後續的採購，我們當然希望以他為優先，但是在政府採購法的限制之下，實際上量產的標案，我們還是要看當時的情況，如果符合限制性招標，有些首次、獨家等等這樣的規範，政府採購法規定可以這樣做，我們當然會優先；如果做出來，一年後發現這樣的技術其實很多廠商也都能夠做，我們還是會採公開招標的方式。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:48:15.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:48:17.209000+08:00","text":"是的，這就是本席今天要提出這個質詢最重要的原因。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:48:17.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:48:34.794000+08:00","text":"部長，就本席粗淺的認識，現在你們怎麼走採購程序，還是受到政府採購法的規範，但政府採購法是以工程會、經濟部為主的思考邏輯，這樣的思考邏輯，一定是要確保公開、要確保公平、要確保不能排他，免得有圖利的疑慮，對不對？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:48:35.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:48:37.655000+08:00","text":"因為整個國家從上到下有這麼多的標案，對不對？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:48:37.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:48:42.379000+08:00","text":"可是國防採購有它的特殊性，所以我今天為什麼是從制度面的角度去談這件事？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:48:43.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:48:55.252000+08:00","text":"如果我們的國防政策要走一套特別的狀況，就應該要有特別的政策設計跟制度設計，也許是修法、新的法令等等，才有辦法澈底地完成這件事情，來提振國內產業在軍用方面的參與度。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:48:58.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:49:12.324000+08:00","text":"如果我們一直去想該怎麼往這個方向來做，也努力往這個方向設計，但是制度規章還是受限於本來的政府採購法，就會出現我剛剛講的狀況，廠商前面花很多時間、很努力，後面卻被反淘汰或什麼等等，政策就會因此變得窒礙難行。","quality":0.691},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:49:12.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:49:39.375000+08:00","text":"所以部長，最後的時間，我希望你們能夠思考一下，既然要學，也許可以學澈底一點，我是外交及國防委員會的新人，我什麼廠商都不認識，所以只有這個時候我可以很清楚地去談這個事情，制度是不分廠商的，但是政策如果明確，如果政府採購法對於推動這樣的軍民合作反而造成部分障礙，國防部也要勇敢表達自己的立場，去要求整個政府單位設計可以推進這樣政策的一套採購機制。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:49:40.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:49:41.976000+08:00","text":"部長，有沒有這樣的打算或想法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T10:49:42.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:49:56.610000+08:00","text":"是，我們會跟我們的採購室從採購法的觀點來看，以符合這個法規但是又能夠對廠商形成一定誘因的方式，大致上可能會採取最有利標這樣的方式來處理。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:49:56.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:50:10.618000+08:00","text":"當然，以現行的規定都是這樣，但我都鼓勵國防部可以大膽一點，大家有時候都講國防部很保守，但我的意思是說，如果國防真的迫切需要、有未來發展等等必要的時候，專門設計一套合宜的特別採購流程，這個本來就是可以思考的，好不好？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:50:11.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:50:13.039000+08:00","text":"這請國防部做一下研議，可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:50:13.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:50:15.320000+08:00","text":"有必要的時候我可以幫忙來談，談這個事我覺得都是很好的。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T10:50:15.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:50:17.582000+08:00","text":"對，我們會跟工程會來……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:50:17.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:50:18.942000+08:00","text":"來研究一下，好不好？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-27T10:50:19.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T10:50:19.863000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長，辛苦了。謝謝。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-27T10:50:20.363000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-27T10:50:24.077286+08:00","text":"接下來請黃建賓委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}