{"error":false,"id":["168862"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168862,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168862","日期":"2026-04-27","影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-27T10:41:36+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-27T10:53:01+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:25","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8fcf676897be76b94e27f055c5ec91befe7e989f52ae31568df8c171d4c1cef9ff2541df1b7df3cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:41:36 - 10:53:01","會議時間":"2026-04-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第5會期「對總統提出彈劾案」全院委員會聽證會（事由：第11屆第5會期「對總統提出彈劾案」全院委員會聽證會）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":0.03096875,"end":6.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.629093750000001,"end":9.649718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.700343750000002,"end":11.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.19784375,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18.188468750000002,"end":19.926593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.37784375,"end":26.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":28.735343750000002,"end":174.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":174.70409375,"end":176.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.86409375000002,"end":179.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.85096875000002,"end":192.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.14846875,"end":194.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.03846875000002,"end":201.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.27784375000002,"end":206.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.29409375,"end":226.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.96596875,"end":227.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.38784375,"end":239.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.01596875,"end":231.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.80784375000002,"end":255.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.48471875,"end":264.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.86284375,"end":266.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":266.03159375,"end":266.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.60534375000003,"end":269.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.65971875,"end":271.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.73534375,"end":272.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.64659375,"end":274.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.72221875,"end":276.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.59096875,"end":279.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.75096875,"end":280.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.81409375000004,"end":281.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.24846875000003,"end":283.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.15534375000004,"end":285.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.87659375000004,"end":287.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.96909375,"end":288.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.08284375,"end":289.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.55096875000004,"end":292.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.35659375,"end":293.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.77409375,"end":294.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.07346875,"end":296.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.52471875000003,"end":297.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.70159375000003,"end":300.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.96284375000005,"end":301.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.73471875,"end":305.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.34596875,"end":309.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.09221875000003,"end":310.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.15534375000004,"end":312.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.14659375,"end":315.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.85909375,"end":317.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.87159375000005,"end":319.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.79534375000003,"end":321.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.51221875000005,"end":323.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.60471875,"end":332.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.05096875000004,"end":331.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.02971875000003,"end":336.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.38346875,"end":337.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.10471875,"end":339.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":340.18034375,"end":340.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":340.82159375000003,"end":341.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.23909375,"end":354.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.69284375,"end":355.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.51971875000004,"end":356.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.46471875000003,"end":389.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.06284375,"end":396.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.49221875,"end":422.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.22659375,"end":424.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.19659375000003,"end":432.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":432.99284375,"end":481.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":481.77846875000006,"end":483.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":484.24221875,"end":485.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":485.62596875,"end":491.05971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":491.27909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紀俊成教授還有蔣桂美教授三位我們因為硬體設備三位正好 對不起我以為行政院長還在 沒傳過來麻煩請黃教授 紀教授 蔣教授因為我們的硬體只有三位所以三位正好來 蔣教授可以請"},{"start":29.043,"end":44.69,"text":"首先我要謝謝今天出席的所有的專家學者因為從剛剛大家的談話當中可以聽得到大家對於現在這個民進黨執政底下迴憲亂政對於我們民主憲政秩序的毀壞的一些憂慮跟擔心"},{"start":46.451,"end":63.027,"text":"那我以下有幾個比較具體的問題想要就叫三位第一個就是我們可以看到民進黨執政之後它事實上是一個雙少數的政府國會少數那賴清德總統也是40%民意他並不是多數總統那雙少數的這樣的一個執政黨"},{"start":67.011,"end":85.423,"text":"他們竟然第一個是他要用大罷免的方式用這樣子的一個過去也是我想是世界上應該是絕無僅有用這樣的方式要來改變國會的席次就是在政治上面他們發起這樣的惡意的罷免跟攻擊"},{"start":86.543,"end":111.037,"text":"導致現在我們整個國家的政情也是呈現一種對立跟動盪這樣其實是非常不恰當的做法另外一個最不恰當的做法就是剛剛三位我特別看你們的報告都特別提到不附屬這件事情違憲的地方但是民進黨在上一次的公聽會裡面他們很多位委員"},{"start":111.957,"end":137.763,"text":"他們有一個詭辯他們提出來的理由就是說今天不附屬的是行政院院長為什麼我們要彈劾的是總統那當然剛剛這個黃景堂教授的報告裡面講得非常清楚在這一個之前的一個辯當會裡面就是由這個賴清德總統他在12月12號的時候他召集的"},{"start":138.403,"end":161.112,"text":"12月15號這個行政院長他就立即就是他就是不不附屬這些法律喔那所以他就是常進人喔他下指導期但是民進黨的委員還公然護航說你們這個是行政院長做的事情啊那為什麼是要彈劾總統呢針對這個問題喔我想請教三位"},{"start":164.553,"end":191.775,"text":"教授是不是可以從你們的觀點針對民進黨的委員這樣子的護航的說法你們有沒有什麼樣的一個意見那我們是不是依序從蔣貴美教授這邊開始OK那我就珍惜時間簡單來說因為王委員的提問是問題的焦點也就是說總統敢做不敢當因為在憲法裡面的附議他是非常清楚徵修條文明文規定要經過總統核可"},{"start":193.216,"end":211.99,"text":"所以何可全是在總統行政院長的職位也是來自總統而且不需要經過立法院統一是86年修法以後修過了所以從頭到尾行政院長他扮演總統幕僚長的角色那所以這種角色之下他的不附屬當然是總統的意志展現"},{"start":212.911,"end":234.682,"text":"所以總統在整個的條文運作上他是責無旁貸的第二個問題簡單來說就是雙少數政府這件事從賴總統上台以後他始終無法面對我覺得是非常怯懦的因為你雙少數你就必須面對這個問題然後你就回到總統元首的身份必須發揮你協調面對問題解決問題的功能而不是不斷的製造問題"},{"start":240.104,"end":264.394,"text":"所以憲法37條72條甚至我們回到所謂的徵修條文裡面它是非常清楚的規定它是因強制規定兩個都是因公佈因附屬收到10天之內這個條文上這麼清楚而且它不是法律規定它是憲法明文規定的所以我覺得這個是抵觸憲法非常明顯的事證"},{"start":266.645,"end":289.392,"text":"我想跟王委員這個問題第一個他推動大罷免本身是一個高度政治性的問題作為一個國家的領導人他應該知道這種政治性的問題要盡量給他的衝擊更小結果他的"},{"start":290.612,"end":314.693,"text":"表面上說他沒有參與而實質上總統是幕後的支持者因為這個從在朝的柯建民委員的談話裡面已經說得很清楚所以這一點就表示他是不敢負責任的第二個不附屬的這個事情因為現行的憲法徵求條文"},{"start":316.892,"end":338.746,"text":"我們的行政院長是總統全權可以任免的他如果不附屬和他的意思不一樣的話就是說行政院長的不附屬和總統意思不一致他就應該免職啊結果不到免職現在還在做啊這就表示他是受益的那麼這當然要負責任是 謝謝"},{"start":342.81,"end":345.151,"text":"大罷免案是非常惡意的行動世界上應該是沒有這個東西"},{"start":356.587,"end":379.64,"text":"就是說他應該是可以就此來講可以被提起彈劾或提起罷免的我們這個就蹉跎到現在這樣子我會認為說就他主導整個葛葵拒絕附屬這是他清清楚楚主導我們這個提案的說明也講到這是主導"},{"start":380.6,"end":401.233,"text":"那麼你可以說我們如果用刑法上來講有所謂的間接正犯那麼這個所謂的共謀共同正犯、守謀等等這些但是這是刑法上的用語我們不一定要在這邊亦步亦趨的我現在只是要講就是說事實上是從他的權力"},{"start":402.814,"end":431.363,"text":"他任免行政院長的權利所以他應該是有相當的指示即使說他沒有指示那麼行政院長做了這個動作以後那他就應該要糾正他如果他是首線、副線的總統他就應該負起責任說這個是不行立即糾正否則就叫他滾蛋那這個沒有就表示他事實上是一個共謀的甚至是一個守謀的行為"},{"start":433.312,"end":459.072,"text":"非常謝謝三位教授的一個回答剛剛也聽得非常的清楚行政院院長他根本沒有不附屬這樣的權利今天是總統授意然後他做這樣的事情所以當然我們要彈劾的對象就是總統更何況我們看到的是這不附屬的案件是一件接一件剛剛蔣貴美教授也已經幫忙算出來有八案之多"},{"start":459.933,"end":481.074,"text":"所以可能未來還會再有所以我想今天立法院我們也是依據憲法賦予我們的職權我們今天依法提出這樣的一個彈劾案那接下來一題我要請教的就是說目前憲法法庭只有五位大法官竟然就做出憲判而且"},{"start":481.835,"end":511.315,"text":"他是一件一件的去公告那在這樣的情況底下他程序本身違反但是會繼續開你們會不會擔心這樣的情況會變成三人言成虎就是他案例一多之後他把這種違法的非法的現在的這樣五個人就可以做出憲判這樣子的一個把這一種非法變成是通例然後逼迫大家接受那這樣的情況要怎麼辦"},{"start":512.015,"end":533.354,"text":"我是不是可以先請教這個長貴美委員OK 謝謝委員我覺得憲法法庭五人審判這件事它連程序正義第一個就違法那也就是說連我們即使先不談司法連行政程序法111條連行政機關規範的法都明文規定無效的要件"},{"start":534.295,"end":551.182,"text":"那所以也就是說何況是司法程序所以它的這種所謂的無效行為因為五個人在法治上它根本就不成立沒有辦法平抑那這個大家非常清楚不但是限訴法的新法或舊法它基本上是不成立所謂的平抑門檻"},{"start":552.242,"end":577.218,"text":"那可是他今天能夠抵觸這個而且不斷的做成我覺得在法律上非常清楚無效的行為不會因為時間經過它就變成有效所以將來最可能發生的一件事就是說你會影響到當事人的權利他的right會因為你的違法行為而遭到相關的損害所以我覺得是製造了更多的訴訟所以這種行為我覺得作為一個"},{"start":578.418,"end":591.704,"text":"國家元首你可以完全看不到這個是一個非常嚴肅的問題而且我覺得法治國的基本原則就是程序先理如果連程序都不正義的話更彈劾實體的問題"},{"start":594.705,"end":612.553,"text":"所以大法官五人自己去解釋在1.14憲判之第一號裡面自己去解釋說所謂的限遊總額要扣除那三個不參與評議的把他視為因為他迴避所以不參與評議更何況他也不見得是迴避的問題他根本就是拒絕參與所以我覺得這個是非常誇張"},{"start":613.632,"end":634.165,"text":"而且違法的行為謝謝黃警長教授要補充應該這樣講就是說這個五人現在的憲法法庭他也有一定的節制就是說他們基本上比較省人權但是根本性的來講就是說這個五人這樣來做這個憲法的這個法庭的"},{"start":639.991,"end":665.24,"text":"所以他現在很貴是分不分離你會有這樣的一個一個人的自己的這個樣子嗎"},{"start":676.854,"end":680.24,"text":"好,谢谢王玉敏委员发言,谢谢三位教授的说明,谢谢。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}