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事實上來講是遵循一個但是我們不斷的對很多的這些新興的一些科研案我們透過跟國科院也好經濟部也好那還有我們中科院本身也好那我們都會來進行相關的這些合作那原型開發也是我們其中的一個一個一個嘗試"},{"start":234.184,"end":258.064,"text":"因為既然是科研就不一定會成功,如果它已經在市面上已經都被商業量產了這個當然就OK,但是既然是科研就不一定會成功所以相關的設計的機制,因為我們要鼓勵民間參與,那民間軍民一起合作如果設下了非常多的障礙,這個民間可能到最後就說叫這個工部做生意很難做"},{"start":260.15,"end":268.156,"text":"我也知道我會失敗啊,也不一定會成功啊,哪有一定成功的,這個部份可能就是民間參與的動力會減少"},{"start":272.774,"end":292.054,"text":"這方面跟我們報告民間參與的動力真正的來源就是第一個在研發階段他的投資成本能夠有國家的資金依住所以這個部分包含學校是由國科會為主然後民間是以經濟部為主這兩邊都會有國家的資金去依住他另外在研發過程中間"},{"start":293.055,"end":313.469,"text":"我們會針對未來的量產看到他已經到達快要成功的階段的時候同時我們會按照產業發展條例輔導他成為國防部的產發認證廠商未來我就可以跳過政府採購法直接跟他採購我想這個國科會經驗很多啦就是跟學校老師跟廠商這種合作也許金額不多但是這種經驗很多第二個"},{"start":314.605,"end":331.208,"text":"就是我們對這些廠商不管你們公開徵求或廠商總是會想說我找一個很好的東西來跟國防部提案看看這樣的一個機制部長這樣的一個機制有沒有可能陷我們這個小組的成員於不義"},{"start":333.303,"end":353.024,"text":"現我們的小組成員不易?不易就是說,現在有一隻手想說我這東西很好,一直想找我們小組成員說我幫你報告一下,這實在是有夠讚的結果我們小組成員就疲於奔命所以你們是公開徵求的機制,或者是廠商提案的這些機制"},{"start":354.005,"end":380.884,"text":"是有一個時間、有一個公告或是有一個什麼或是說這個廠商他做得很好他可能就在某一個工業區、某一個科學區發展一個他覺得很厲害的東西那就想要來報告嘛想要報告對國安部的成員來說這個人要來報告、那個人要來報告報告的時候,又要送你一包蝶米、送你一包伴手禮我告訴你,走開我是說這件事情是一個公開的"},{"start":383.338,"end":408.106,"text":"期間啊 或者是程序還是什麼還是他們隨時都可以有一個過程就可以來體驗這樣子的概念跟我們報告 我們的這個商情的蒐集是持續性 例行性就是幾乎每個禮拜都在進行所以廠商如果他有認為適合我們國防需要的這些產品以及技術 他隨時都可以跟我們聯絡那我們會來安排"},{"start":409.787,"end":437.177,"text":"然後也會召集相關的聯餐跟軍種一起來聽他們的簡報然後甚至於去他們的公司去看實務的展示這些都是持續在進行的那您剛剛講的這個所謂公開徵集我們確實是有一定的時間就是兩階段的這個就是公開徵求的這個部分會開廠商的說明會然後也會公告然後時間都非常明確的會標示"},{"start":439.546,"end":453.973,"text":"所以剛剛包括部長提到115年跟116年這個少量採購跟原型開發這些都有目標的案子準備來推動嗎對 所以就是因為這個"},{"start":455.421,"end":470.279,"text":"不管是小批量多案項或者是原型開發的案子它可以在讓我們在原型開發之後我們進行測試評估那小批量多案項也是在我們進行測試評估這個都是一定要通過測試評估以後"},{"start":472.181,"end":497.358,"text":"經過我們相關的這些聯參部門他們認可各軍種認可之後這個案子才會進行量產那如果沒有辦法通過的話這個案子就那這個所有的研發案就如剛剛所講就是說國科會他也沒有但是我們一定要透過國家的預算來去輔導他們來進行那不然的話我們的國防自主其實就沒有辦法那美國的DIU"},{"start":498.58,"end":520.74,"text":"也是這麼做啊,美國DIU早先還有DAPA,他那個講的再更深遠,他也不一定都會成功那我們的DIU,他們的DIU跟我們的DIU也同樣,他們相對來講是找比較成熟一點的那不管是成熟或者不成熟,那也包括中科院的"},{"start":522.741,"end":545.131,"text":"研發案、科研案都沒有在能夠說確保成功的那如果說都要能夠確保成功,我們不就變成世界第一槍嗎?什麼都可以成功最後剛剛這個部長在回答牛許廷哪一位委員提到的時候,你剛剛有一些案件的數量包括編載115年、116年的這一些計畫"},{"start":550.703,"end":561.375,"text":"請問你們這個順序是怎樣就是說已經決定了這些計畫來編預算還是你們先框了一筆預算然後在這個預算之下去徵集這些計畫順序上是怎樣"},{"start":562.492,"end":584.608,"text":"我們有先框了一個預算,然後我們來進行這個少量採購跟原型開發,但這個預算還是要先通過我們才能執行所以115年的案項,因為還是要等總預算通過才能執行但是你115年的那個案項的金額是剛剛部長已經報到那個少量的跟這個原型開發的這兩個你都有講的一個數字"},{"start":588.389,"end":608.81,"text":"沒有,我剛剛沒有講一些數字,我剛剛講小量採購他每一個案項,10個案項他大概事實上都有一些預算然後原型開發也有一些預算,那這些還是要大院審議通過之後才能夠做所以先花了一筆錢、一筆預算,然後接下來再去找廠商嗎?"},{"start":610.001,"end":628.961,"text":"沒有 我們會 事實上有一些案子已經事先有做一些公開徵集的一些工作OK 就公開徵集所以有這個公開徵集之後的大概的預算對對對 那有一些還在招標的階段有一些已經有保留決標但是要做還是要等到預算通過OK 好 謝謝 謝謝部長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:00:31+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-27T11:00:32+08:00","text":"（11時）謝謝召委，我們請顧部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-27T11:00:31.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:00:31.770000+08:00","text":"請顧部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:00:31.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:00:32.770000+08:00","text":"還有請國科會一起好嗎？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-27T11:00:32.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:00:32.910000+08:00","text":"請國科會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:00:32.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:01:06.639000+08:00","text":"不好意思，我先請教一下國科會，你們現在的科研計畫，就是跟民間合作的這種計畫，有沒有提完計畫執行一段時間後失敗退出的？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林主任秘書廣宏","start":"2026-04-27T11:01:09.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:01:18.529000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們當然對一些我們推動的計畫都會有定期檢討，對沒有符合我們期待的，當然我們會有適當的退場機制。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:01:19.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:01:20.391000+08:00","text":"那有沒有退場的？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林主任秘書廣宏","start":"2026-04-27T11:01:23.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:01:26.451000+08:00","text":"報告委員，是有部分檢討精進的。有嘛！OK。","quality":0.353},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:01:27.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:01:36.654000+08:00","text":"顧部長，我們現在的設計裡頭，就是國防部創新小組的原型開發這件事情，有沒有退場機制？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T11:01:39.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:01:49.738000+08:00","text":"原型開發是屬於比較成熟的部分，就是技術面水準比較高的，所以需要做一些客製化的部分。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:01:50.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:02:04.120000+08:00","text":"沒錯，那他就做不出來了，剛剛不是講說簽完約9到12個月這個概念，結果時間一到他做不出來，那怎麼退場？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T11:02:04.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:02:10.545000+08:00","text":"因為他沒有辦法做出來，那就不符合我們的需求，這個原型開發的案子就會被終止掉了。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:02:11.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:02:14.449000+08:00","text":"那前端已經完成的合約呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T11:02:15.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:02:19.329000+08:00","text":"前端已經完成的合約，它如果不符合我們的需求，這個案子就……","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:02:19.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:02:21.450000+08:00","text":"現在的機制是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:02:21.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:02:42.786000+08:00","text":"因為你跟民間合作，那民間可能一開始合作的時候，譬如可能在合約上會有付款等諸如此類的事情，那最後做了一年，他跟你講說他們做不出來，或者做了一年要量產，結果你們檢核之後說這個不行，那最後大家要退場的時候，現在的設計是什麼？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T11:02:44.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:02:54.632000+08:00","text":"我們現在應該是說，我們會在期間有一些管制的節點，如果說真的它進程不順利的話，我們就會考慮在這個之前就會終止。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T11:02:55.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:03:09.479000+08:00","text":"如果在這個管制的節點上面它都沒有產生任何問題的話，那就會進行到最後，但最後還是要進行一個驗證，如果不符合我們的需求，這個原型開發案就算是沒有能夠成功。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:03:10.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:03:18.268000+08:00","text":"那相關的規定機制，都已經載明在跟廠商之間的合約裡頭？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T11:03:20.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:04:24.283000+08:00","text":"對，其實像剛剛問到的國科會案子裡面，像我們現在跟國科會也是這樣子，有一些案子是從TRL1到TRL4，那這個部分他能不能再進展到TRL5以上，這是不一定的，因為每一個研究開發都有它失敗的可能性，就連中科院研究開發的案子也會有失敗的時候，那我們現在跟國科會也好，跟其他……我們的相關合作如果能夠再進展到TRL5以上，那我們就要去跟這些廠商再繼續合作，但是這個時候，我們可能會進入一個保密的協定裡面去，然後再繼續往下走，大致上來講是遵循一個……但是我們不斷地對很多的這些新興的一些科研案，透過跟國科會也好、經濟部也好，還有我們中科院本身也好，我們都會來進行相關的這些合作，那原型開發也是我們的其中一個嘗試。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:04:25.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:04:59.136000+08:00","text":"因為科研不一定會成功，如果它在市面上已經都被商業量產了，這個當然就OK，但是既然是科研案，就不一定會成功，所以相關設計的機制，因為我們要鼓勵民間參與，軍民一起合作，如果設下了非常多的障礙，民間可能到最後就說跟國防部做生意很難，我也知道我會失敗，也不一定會成功，哪有一定能成功的，結果到最後，這個部分民間參與的動力是不是可能會減少？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2026-04-27T11:05:03.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:05:20.531000+08:00","text":"這方面跟委員報告，民間參與的動力真正來源就是第一個，在研發階段它的投資成本能夠有國家的資金挹注，所以這個部分包含學校是由國科會為主，民間是以經濟部為主，這兩邊都會有國家的資金去挹注它。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2026-04-27T11:05:21.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:05:35.823000+08:00","text":"另外在研發過程中間，我們會針對未來的量產，看到它已經到達快要成功階段的時候，同時我們會按照產業發展條例，輔導它成為國防部的產發認證廠商，未來我就可以跳過政府採購法直接跟它採購。OK！","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:05:35.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:05:43.668000+08:00","text":"我想這部分國科會經驗很多啦，就是跟學校老師及廠商這種合作，也許金額不多，但是這種經驗很多。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:05:44.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:06:02.208000+08:00","text":"第二個，我們對這些廠商不管是你們公開徵求或廠商總是會想：我這裡有一個很好的東西來跟國防部提案看看，部長，這樣的一個機制有沒有可能陷我們這個小組的成員於不義？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T11:06:04.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:06:05.224000+08:00","text":"陷我們的小組成員於不義？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:06:05.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:06:14.034000+08:00","text":"不義的意思就是說現在有一個廠商說他這個東西很好，一直想要找我們的小組成員說：我跟你報告一下，這實在是有夠讚的啦！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:06:15.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:06:28.307000+08:00","text":"結果我們小組成員就疲於奔命，因為你們是公開徵求或者是廠商提案的這些機制，這是有一個時間、有一個公告，還是有一個什麼？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:06:28.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:06:47.181000+08:00","text":"還是這個廠商做得很好，他可能就在某一個工業區、某一個科學園區，發展一個他覺得很厲害的東西就想要來報告，這對國防部的成員來說，這個廠商也要來報告、那個廠商也要來報告，報告的時候送你一包茶葉、送你一包伴手禮，到時候會被檢舉。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:06:49.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:06:56.479000+08:00","text":"我是說，這件事情是一個公開的期間或是程序、還是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:06:56.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:07:01.901000+08:00","text":"還是他們隨時都可以有一個過程就可以來提案這樣子的概念？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"苗司長蕙芬","start":"2026-04-27T11:07:04.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:07:32.431000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們的商情蒐集是持續性、例行性，幾乎每個禮拜都在進行，所以廠商如果認為有適合我們國防需要的這些產品以及技術，他隨時都可以跟我們聯絡，我們會來安排，也會召集相關的聯參跟軍種一起來聽他們的簡報，甚至於去他們的公司去看實務展示，這些都是持續在進行的。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"苗司長蕙芬","start":"2026-04-27T11:07:33.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:07:48.157000+08:00","text":"至於您剛剛講的所謂公開徵集，我們確實是有一定的時間，就是兩階段公開徵求的這個部分，會開廠商的說明會，然後也會公告，時間都會非常明確地標示，以上。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:07:50.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:08:03.953000+08:00","text":"OK，所以剛剛包括部長提到115年和116年少量採購跟原型開發，這些都有目標的案子準備來推動嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T11:08:03.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:09:25.046000+08:00","text":"對，就是因為不管是小批量多案項或者是原型開發的案子，它可以在原型開發之後，讓我們進行測試評估，小批量多案項也是要再進行測試評估，這個都是一定要通過測試評估以後，經過我們相關的這些聯參部門認可、各軍種認可之後，這個案子才會進行量產，如果沒有辦法通過的話，這個案子就……而所有的研發案就如剛剛所講，國科會也沒有……但是我們一定要透過國家的預算去輔導他們來進行，不然的話，我們的國防自主其實就沒有辦法，美國的DIU也是這麼做，美國的DIU早先還有DARPA，那個講得更深遠，它也不一定都會成功，他們的DIU跟我們的DIO也同樣，他們相對來講是找比較成熟一點的，不管是成熟或者不成熟，也包括中科院的研發案、科研案，都沒有能夠確保成功的，如果都要能夠確保成功，這樣我們不就變成世界第一強嗎？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T11:09:25.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:09:25.967000+08:00","text":"就是說什麼都可以成功。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:09:26.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:09:42.905000+08:00","text":"好，最後剛剛部長在回答牛煦庭還是哪一位委員提到，你剛剛有一些案件的數量嘛，包括編在115年、116年這一些計畫，請問你們這個順序是怎樣？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:09:42.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:09:51.394000+08:00","text":"就是說已經決定了這些計畫來編預算，還是你們先匡了一筆預算，然後在這個預算之下去徵集這些計畫？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:09:51.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:09:52.375000+08:00","text":"順序上是怎樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T11:09:53.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:10:08.643000+08:00","text":"我們有先匡了一個預算，然後進行少批量採購及原型開發，但這個預算還是要先通過，我們才能執行，所以115年的案項還是要等總預算通過才能執行。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:10:08.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:10:15.588000+08:00","text":"但是115年那個案項的金額是剛剛部長已經報告的少量採購跟原型開發，這兩個你都有講了一個數字吧？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T11:10:19.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:10:34.725000+08:00","text":"沒有，我剛剛沒有講了一些數字，我剛剛講小量的採購每個案項、10個案項大概都有一些預算，原型開發也有一些預算，這些還是要大院審議通過之後才能夠做。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:10:35.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:10:39.810000+08:00","text":"所以先匡了一筆錢、一筆預算，接下來再去找廠商嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T11:10:41.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:10:47.147000+08:00","text":"沒有，事實上我們有一些案子已經事先做公開徵集的動作。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:10:47.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:10:51.192000+08:00","text":"OK，公開徵集，所以有公開徵集之後的大概預算？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-04-27T11:10:51.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:10:58.960000+08:00","text":"對，有一些還在招標的階段，有一些已經有保留決標，但是要做還是要等到預算通過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-04-27T11:10:58.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-27T11:10:59.941000+08:00","text":"OK，好，謝謝部長。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席（陳委員永康代）","start":"2026-04-27T11:11:00.441000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-27T11:11:03.298143+08:00","text":"謝謝王義川委員的質詢。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席（陳委員永康代）","start":"2026-04-27T11:11:03.598143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-27T11:11:07.026714+08:00","text":"下面我們請徐巧芯委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}