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食安的需求等等要再修正的時候你也不能片片修正囉我開放的時候我可以片片開放可是我現在修正因為有個ART放在這個地方所以修正之後啊我還要雙邊代表會商欸 這個院長這個感覺啊 犧牲食安於前啊旱死車門於後啊"},{"start":229.293,"end":246.134,"text":"我請問你這個在整個台美談判的時候這馬鈴薯是什麼門票嗎還是什麼交換的條件我還是跟委員報告我剛才說的雙邊諮商的部分那因為美國人是說一定要跟他討論那我們也會跟他討論所以是雙邊諮商的一個文字的一個敘述"},{"start":246.815,"end":264.893,"text":"人家現在你現在是放寬人家比較容易進來你如果要再加嚴之上人家會同意嗎所有的所有的進出口一定是雙邊智商討論到一個共識才會去執行所以基本上你就很樂意開放對不對不我就是要問這個事情跟談判的關係院長院長回答我問題就好"},{"start":265.954,"end":289.827,"text":"這個照理來講如果他是在協議裡面的一部分比如說我在協議裡面我開放了相關的這個檢疫標準我換到了其他比如說特定項目的降稅等等他是一個對等的狀態的時候你好好說服國內那也就算了對不對但是這個事情很奇怪啊就是協議裡面這不是協議內容是在協議之前你就先讓步然後協議的時候你把車門焊死說我不能再改這很奇怪"},{"start":291.528,"end":308.705,"text":"請問這個院長我們在馬鈴薯開放的時候我們急著展現誠意嗎還是什麼 你的理由是什麼你為什麼要先處理這件事情而不是把它放在嫌疑交換的一部分委員剛剛的時間序我們也看得出來這不是一朝一夕所形成的雙方對於進口馬鈴薯這個流程檢驗的一個變更"},{"start":313.209,"end":327.488,"text":"他的流程跟檢驗這不是一朝一夕形成的所以他是經過多年雙方的各種的談判內容跟正式的談判是無關的所以在這個之前就已經談了很久若干因為我們也不希望我們跟國際的標準國際的規範國際的做法不對齊嘛"},{"start":330.231,"end":353.091,"text":"所以這個也是對習但是很重要一點並沒有放寬或放鬆我們還是在進口美方進口的時候他還有嚴格的標準進到我們國內來我們還是要檢驗我剛剛跟部長講過我也跟你講一樣話不好意思因為今天時間有限我沒有要聽你講這些政策的細節但你講跟談判無關如果跟談判無關怎麼剛好ART裡面你就寫了規則未來改變要經過雙邊會上"},{"start":354.71,"end":382.617,"text":"政務的推動每天都在不同的角度不同的方向不同的面向一直在推動很多事情這個到了談雙方對進口馬鈴薯的細節談到了一個成熟的時候自然這個農業部他就會依照預告的工作我就問你嘛如果今天你本來就在進行一個ART的談判你把它放在ART的談判裡面作為開放的某一個條件可以換到別的利益的時候這樣難道不會比較好嗎你幹嘛先開放於前嘛我講這不合理的地方在這裡嘛之前就在談了不是在談這個關稅時候才開始談的"},{"start":384.477,"end":397.231,"text":"對嘛好那你之前都在談那你到底換了什麼是你如果不開放這馬鈴薯美國人就不跟你繼續談判不跟你談ARD不跟你簽ARD是嗎他是我們的門票嗎還是你基於哪一樣的一些政治的目的你要展現誠意你總要有個說法吧"},{"start":397.725,"end":419.86,"text":"我說我們就必須要有科學的根據跟對齊國際的做法那這個就是國際標準科學根據啊他國也這麼做那我們也希望我們去到其他國家的農業產品也不要被這樣子非常有這個不合理或是一個符合不符合雙方往來的一個對待你到底是為了雙方往來的需要還是你這麼主動的要擁抱所謂的國際標準啊"},{"start":423.455,"end":449.447,"text":"國際標準必須要對齊嘛國際標準必須要對齊好沒關係你這個回答大家都可受公平因為這個題目也吵很久了但是我要提醒你但是重點是我們沒有對國內的食品安全有任何的放鬆這個對齊國際標準的前提是我們不會放鬆國內的安全標準你認為這個沒有任何的放鬆嗎沒有本來可以整批退運現在不要整批退運你認為這不叫放鬆沒有我不跟你爭執這個事啦現在進來的每一顆都還是乾乾淨淨健健康康的"},{"start":449.767,"end":472.444,"text":"他都沒有長牙沒有發霉沒有帶土不過院長我真的是有點擔心問你這樣的回答沒關係我們後面還有相關的題目今天我覺得很奇怪就是我們今天在談ART這件事情已經不是第一次了這期在這個場合我已經是第四次在這個地方跟政府各個官員就教台美談判的議題包含我們第三會期的總諮詢第四會期的總諮詢"},{"start":473.886,"end":490.34,"text":"關稅談判的專案報告那時候是跟政府院長加上今天是第四次院長你還記不記得我在過去幾次質詢的時候我曾經提醒過你的是什麼有關於我們在談判的節奏把握我有沒有提醒你要注意一些事情你還記得嗎委員提的很多請總委再把重點再說一下好"},{"start":491.01,"end":508.939,"text":"那我就放給你看好了好不好我們就放影片現在我提醒一下我們的談判團隊現在要把握幾個談判的變數所以我們一直在講掌握各地的政情跟國際局勢是很重要的這美國最高法院的判決現在看起來風向對於川普政府好像不太有利很有可能從他們的大法官的角度這個片面由總統發布課徵關稅的舉動是會受到衝擊的"},{"start":511.86,"end":521.965,"text":"同樣美國國會現在進入了癱瘓的狀態很多共和黨的議員也不見得支持川普的政策甚至對於很多關稅的案子在國會是封殺的請問院長知不知道這個事"},{"start":524.498,"end":549.445,"text":"訊息萬變我們也不敢做任何的揣測不過我們有做事先的各種模擬的分析在怎麼樣的情況底下我們應該有進一步的什麼的因應以前我們大家都很急躁說要談我那時候講說不見得快速談是好的因為局勢一直都在變對不對那現在有一個機遇是這個是美國國內的一個壓力跟一個變數把握這樣的變數其實在談判上我們稍微有好不容易一點點籌碼我不敢講多"},{"start":550.545,"end":573.845,"text":"那這個時候談判的節奏你們會照常進行嗎還是要加速還是要暫緩還是要做什麼樣的打算有把握嗎目前的節奏包括經濟部都很辛苦他一直要跟產業界講因為產業希望我們趕快談定趕快落點落在哪裡但是因為各種局勢啊現在的變化經濟部花了很長的時間跟產業講說我們已經準備好了所有的產業支持的方案所以一旦"},{"start":574.565,"end":601.376,"text":"到了該弱點發生的那一天我們就馬上會上路我提醒一下啦現在比如日本韓國等他簽了都簽了嘛承諾就承諾了即便最後關稅被沒收那個協議都還在對不對但我們現在是有點機會因為還沒談成啊那如果有變數的話談判的節奏怎麼捏拿對中華民國產業的利益國家的利益是最好的我提醒院長要做好準備因為啊如果面對這種局勢的瞬息萬變即便是美國國內有它不利的因素我們當然要把握啊"},{"start":602.457,"end":631.496,"text":"對不對國安上面大家是好夥伴是盟友對不對但產業上我們不容任何威脅這也是應該要堅持的如果我們對於這樣的局勢沒有任何因應變化跟策略的調整的話那人民就很難安心了好不好我先提醒關稅的事情到這個地方善用一下機遇現在美國國內的狀況是我們可以利用的籌碼關稅談判的我希望看到一點新的或者是更多的進展因為你舉不出任何利多你只是在止損的情況下談的時候那他當然就是單邊主義我們就是被欺負的對象"},{"start":633.177,"end":649.204,"text":"院長這是2025年11月7號上一個會期的總諮詢我們一樣在這個位置你站這邊 我站這邊大家在討論這個關稅的進度我那時候就很清楚啦你剛剛都看到影片大家都看到影片提醒你說最高法院的判決對川普不見得很有利"},{"start":649.984,"end":669.589,"text":"那時候你的回答是說做了充分的模擬隨時有應變的準備我今天之所以要重新回來談ART問題就在這裡了因為在整個ART談判裡其實大家都非常清楚唯一對我國可以稱作是利益的事情恐怕只有一件事叫做免於被對等關稅疊加所威脅"},{"start":671.713,"end":699.995,"text":"你的整個談判你的目的是不是就是這個我們爭取到合理的關稅而且我就是擔心嘛被對等關稅疊加然後你造成你跟競爭夥伴的差距競爭力下降對不對這是你們一路以來都在說的為什麼要讓步這些東西是為了要減緩這個狀況要免於被威脅所以當然要好好談這件事所以上次總諮詢我提醒你啊因為最高法院大法官的判決對於美國這個關稅政策來講是巨大的變數啊這個判決一旦成立"},{"start":701.057,"end":708.936,"text":"對等關稅就消滅我們在談判的對手最大的武器跟籌碼就消滅了所以我們可能可以找到談判的利基啊"},{"start":709.841,"end":738.693,"text":"好 院長我現在問你啦你說你有萬全的模擬跟分析對不對你有沒有模擬到當初我講的最高法院沒收了對等關稅這項武器 有嗎其實在談判的後段還沒有談妥這個ART的時候美國的訴訟已經存在了我們那時候就預判到如果這個訴訟對行政部門不利的話那他可能會採取其他的法律工具我們有緣判到這個部分"},{"start":739.093,"end":765.951,"text":"只是那個時候沒有真的把它當作一個已經發生的但是預判的工作都有做所以那在你的其中一個劇本之一嘛我覺得第二個不合理的我剛剛講馬鈴薯的先開放有很奇怪我覺得不太合理第二個不合理的地方就在這裡啦你如果明明就有所準備你的談判團隊如果是有所準備的話那你怎麼會先簽了協議之後才過一個禮拜人家判決就出來了勒"},{"start":766.832,"end":789.171,"text":"你對於他判決的可能的時間點沒有任何掌握嗎我們都在這裡我們無法掌握哪一天美國會判決我們只知道他有一定的時間判決會出來那我們如果提早在那個判決之前做好那至少我們可以確保一下我們在談判過程當中所有團隊的努力把我們想爭取的那事實也證明我們爭取到了"},{"start":790.097,"end":817.539,"text":"合理的關稅不疊加還有很多的豁免這個都爭取到了問題是現在對等關稅已經消滅沒關係之後後面再講現在我們是要確認這個內容的存在以及確保我們已經獲得了相對的待遇因為最後產生出來比這血淋淋的結果就是你讓東讓西之後結果你公布你張燈結彩你說你談得很棒你很努力這我都不否認我不會否認團隊很辛苦但問題是八天之後短短八天就豬羊變色這是一件很難看的事情啊"},{"start":818.3,"end":845.706,"text":"如果你已經預先掌握了有可能最高法院他就有判決是有變數你戰術性的延後一下公布的時間或簽署的時間這個本來就是這個才是你因應沙盤推演應該拿出來的理性決策嘛而且如果變數還沒有完全落板你就高調宣傳這難道你是模擬之中想要採納的事嗎你到底在搞大內宣還是在認真談判啊委員事後當然我們可以做這種的一個分析啦但是你記得當時我也說過所有產業界都希望政府趕快談好"},{"start":846.846,"end":866.775,"text":"把這關稅談定讓大家有所依據訂單怎麼收怎麼去都有所依據這是當時的氣氛讓我們是一直在推這樣的一網間走你可以跟其他人講說你事後怎麼怎麼講但我這事前就講了我11月7號我就提醒你債錢所以我覺得這是很不合理我相信我們中華民國的談判團隊不會沒有預料到這件事"},{"start":867.415,"end":890.151,"text":"但沒有預料到這件事卻沒有做出合理的決定我覺得很奇怪我們的決定就是在那個時候爭取最佳的利益那我們也做到了那現在我們在確認這個利益的存在講以前的事也沒什麼意思來現在的狀況你總是要面對嘛來世界各國啊對於這個對等關稅被裁定違憲無效之後他們的反應是什麼院長你隨便舉幾個例子就好大部分的國家都希望能夠爭取同樣的待遇"},{"start":890.771,"end":919.163,"text":"同樣的待遇什麼叫同樣的待遇就是在談判已經談好的內容都能夠確定我認為日本大部分的國家都是這樣只有幾個國家他認為他不想去履行這樣的運動來我一個一個唸給你聽來印度啊本來印度是還沒談完的嘛欸農業部長請回我看你一直站在那邊我沒有要為難你的意思沒關係你可以先回去坐沒事的等一下再上來就好印度談判沒有談完對不對他沒談完的時候他怎麼辦他遇到大法官判決他怎麼辦"},{"start":919.923,"end":924.704,"text":"印度政府說他當然期待關稅可以有效調降但是貿易代表團傾向觀察判決的後續發展再決定是否要進一步推進談判來歐盟的反應怎麼樣歐盟遇到這樣的事歐盟是不是跟美國有先協議歐洲議會怎麼回應"},{"start":944.129,"end":961.705,"text":"歐盟他們本來就希望已經談好了不要再有所變動沒有再有所變動嗎那為什麼歐洲因為他這個122以後他現在是課的是10%的暫時性關稅那跟原來歐盟有一點點差異但是歐盟還是希望說他可以享受到最"},{"start":963.146,"end":976.396,"text":"歐洲議會是直接講了要暫緩審批相關的協議因為說裁決後的計畫要採取相應的措施也當然要重新保持密切的溝通所以我們在看嘛 對不對法國總統馬克宏說要評估相關影響並且做出合理適當的調整措施加拿大說要努力幫助企業跟相關工人"},{"start":988.886,"end":1007.707,"text":"即便是日本,日本當然是非常親美的一個國家,他也講說動搖了日美關稅協議的前提基礎但是因為跟美國關係很重要,所以還是要加強相關的一個關係你剛剛馬上就舉日本為例,我就把它講得清楚一點南韓政府說要以國家利益為首要任務,重新審視簽訂的貿易協議"},{"start":1010.409,"end":1021.914,"text":"這我就不多講了世界各國的共通性是什麼我當然要謀定而厚重我要看一下對等關稅消滅之後新的局勢之後再做有效因應"},{"start":1023.203,"end":1043.809,"text":"對不對 你現在問題是這樣 院長啊那你剛剛也講 部長剛剛也急著講 我們也是這樣對不對我們要謀定合作 對吧 是嘛 對不對現在狀況是什麼 你現在還講 因為我們在新聞界或者是在第一時間政府的回應的時候我覺得你回的也不乾脆啊 你說什麼這個相關的談判還是對我們很有利的 相關的文本還是什麼什麼 你講雷大隊有的沒的"},{"start":1044.309,"end":1047.831,"text":"我們講法不同但是我們的目的是相同我們說我們要確認雙方已經談好的R的內容確保我們所得到的優惠的待遇"},{"start":1061.698,"end":1082.436,"text":"能夠秩序的下去 這個就是摩地我剛剛已經講了嘛 整個ART裡面你談的最大的重點就是你避免被課徵對等關稅嘛避免被課徵對等關稅之間就達成 因為他違憲了嘛那請問新的利多是什麼我要問的是這個啊報告委員 因為美國他還在重建他可能的這個法律依據所以他為什麼要提出三年以來"},{"start":1083.867,"end":1100.176,"text":"這個有可能是他在重建他的這個法律有可能對不對那請問現在的狀況所以我們持續跟美方溝通就是要鞏固我們原來已經談好的這個你回答這三個事就好了這我寫在上面第一個協定裡面現在你的文本協定裡面有沒有提到一二條款"},{"start":1100.899,"end":1121.774,"text":"沒有吧當然沒有你談的時候根本就沒有這件事怎麼會有122條款對不對那我現在問一下這個122條款因為你當初談完對等關係是不疊加的嘛因為122條款它是一個暫時性的它是一個暫時性的沒錯那122條款有沒有疊加本來的最惠國待遇因為它是暫時性的所以都是有的嘛對不對122是有疊加的嘛所以它在"},{"start":1123.416,"end":1132.587,"text":"尋求他的這個法律預計的時候不會用122122是一個暫時性的但是暫時性的沒有錯嘛但是對等關稅沒了嘛對不對122是暫時性的嘛可是我們的ART"},{"start":1133.8,"end":1162.595,"text":"他擠的對等關稅已經沒了122現在又只是暫時性措施對不對所以其實對我們來講是沒什麼傷害的嘛所以你才講我有看經濟部的相關的回應嘛目前對產業的溝通還算穩得住局勢對不對因為你現在沒有壓力啊你現在沒有威脅嘛對不對因為現在是10%疊加啦對啦10%疊加嘛對不對但相對可控嘛比起那個30幾%疊加會死人的10幾%還算可控對不對現在也沒有對等關稅的威脅122還算可控那ART還有必要那麼急嗎"},{"start":1163.155,"end":1191.223,"text":"我剛剛提到就是說美國他可能會利用301還有其他的條例重建他們這個所以剛剛我講很多國家也有在預作準備這個我不否定你的談判團隊本來就要預作準備但是我要提醒這中間其實已經有蠻多蠻多不合理的地方剛剛你今天如果你早先啊面對關稅這個題目豬羊變色你的回應是很乾脆的我們跟世界各國看齊因應新的局勢我要全面停下腳步重新審視重新溝通"},{"start":1191.983,"end":1217.341,"text":"我覺得大家對於這個東西的疑慮跟擔心會少非常多但是我必須很誠實的跟院長講我們看到的是 我們還是很優惠啊你夾帶那麼多宣傳的要素在裡面幹嘛呢我們回到事實來談這件事就好我目前為止看到整個關稅的三個大的不合理第一個 協定批准前現在這個ART你也沒有送立法院嘛所以當然沒有批准嘛美國也還沒有批准嘛 對不對所以ART目前的條文其實是不生任何效力的 對嗎"},{"start":1218.381,"end":1242.896,"text":"欸還沒有生效還沒生效對不對好至少我們今天覺得事實基礎上面在講話協定批准檢所以我就講你馬鈴薯放寬的東西很奇怪嘛欸我還是要去強調馬鈴薯的這些條件的改變是平常對任何產品的貿易產品的改變你都在滾動式檢討嘛對不對我都幫你把詞講出來了但是自行放寬自行改變標準很奇怪啦這第一個不合理第二個你"},{"start":1243.716,"end":1270.861,"text":"這我剛剛跟院長講啦我都已經預言在前了可能會有大法官判決這個變數你壓力可能會非常大可能會豬羊變色可是你顯然還是出現了翻盤鬧劇你還先張燈劫財再豬羊變色整個變進退失據第三個就是明明對等關稅都已經消滅了但我們的團隊還不面對現實說不管你要謀定或後動還好我是覺得政治都要重啟談判啦就算你真的要跟美國簽貿易協定你文本的文字總要改變吧"},{"start":1271.661,"end":1290.251,"text":"你總要爭取新的讓步空間吧美國也要對我們釋出善意吧對不對要不然現在對等關稅已經沒了啊所以我們的好處都不見了可是我們的開放都還在啊如果美國經過301的調查我們也做過合理的說明之後我希望雙方形式上你現在ART裡面有沒有講我一定不是重啟談判沒有吧"},{"start":1290.971,"end":1314.589,"text":"我覺得形式上不要說是重啟談判是確認我們已經得到的這些優惠的待遇要確認確保我看了一下ART的文本如果我沒有記錯的話市長現在是分兩個部分一個部分是談判最後的結果我們希望鞏固但是另外一個是法律的依據那法律的依據當然先前他有了問題他現在在修正他的法律依據假如法律依據修正好以後我們希望那個談判結果不要改變"},{"start":1315.089,"end":1336.55,"text":"希望談判結果不要改變我的意思是說前面是我們開了馬鈴薯後面還開別的我等一下跟你講換到的是不課對等關稅這是以前的平衡嘛然後你現在講對等關稅已經沒了然後我們這些開放還在然後你現在又講不出來到底我們可以得到哪些白紙黑字的具體誘因然後你講我要維持這件事很危險而且非常不容易"},{"start":1336.93,"end":1355.052,"text":"我想跟委員報告其實在ART的談判過程中有一些301本來在調查的項目其實已經在談判過程中有一個比較好的結果所以我們如果確保我們的ART的一個談判的內容的話相對於可能對於301以後的調查的報告是有幫助的這個是我們的重點"},{"start":1355.612,"end":1376.042,"text":"這就跟我們剛剛談122一樣,你有沒有白紙黑字寫進去?如果有白紙黑字寫進去,你可以講說這是我換到的東西嘛我們就按照事實來根本我想301的調查,他的調查報告沒出來,可是相對裡面的內容在ART裡面已經有很好的共識的時候他們在301裡面就不會有比較嚴格的一個要求院長,我只建議你這個"},{"start":1378.183,"end":1393.93,"text":"不要踩在這邊尖聲對我有利整個結構都已經改變了你要謀定而後動我至少今天聽到了謀定而後動我稍微鬆了一口氣不要急啦現在大家要繼續面對這個談判我給政府 因為最後剩7分鐘我還要再講一下這幾個原則 兩不兩要兩不兩要怎麼 不應該不詐騙"},{"start":1398.752,"end":1421.201,"text":"大家都看馬鈴薯之亂,ART文本裡面可不只寫馬鈴薯,馬鈴薯只是前菜而已來豬來牛才是大家比較擔心的事ART的文本我已經放出來給大家看,在他所謂宣稱的非關稅貿易障礙裡面直接提以後要終止牛肉的竹香茶葉跟冷凍茶葉程序,有沒有這件事?農業部長你可以回答了"},{"start":1422.181,"end":1445.239,"text":"這個是衛福部邊境檢定但是相對的竹箱查驗是在一個非常特殊的狀況是已經發現到有違禁的部分才會去竹箱查驗所以我們過去對於所有的國家都是用抽屁的方式依照他的風險如果風險太高才會達到百分之百就是所謂的竹箱院長這個我貼上去的內容應該沒有錯吧這就ART的文本"},{"start":1445.999,"end":1464.358,"text":"就是對於我們非疫區的肉品進來我們採取的要跟國際的做法一樣所以我們現在必須改變的一個方式是我們對於疫區的認定以及如果是美牛的話它是不是來自疫區這個跟國際的做法要一樣那我們就可以採取一樣的作業標準所以你就是要開放嘛對不對"},{"start":1465.847,"end":1481.469,"text":"我想我也不能這樣講如果以美牛來講過去的這個BSE的部分它在相關的規定是有規範的但是美國現在已經變為BSE可忽略的國家那可忽略的國家表示說他不必向WHO去通報"},{"start":1482.19,"end":1495.206,"text":"那相對的所有的檢疫的遊戲的一個條文就是相關的規範就必須做適度的符合國際規範的更改好又有國際規範了我們又聽到這件事以前大家都講過嘛來院長右邊豬肉豬肉"},{"start":1497.749,"end":1522.288,"text":"對不對 大家以前開美牛的時候大家講過破窗會破窗那時候國民黨執政整個民進黨 震天尬響喊重啟談判這不惜一切守護人民食安言猶在耳不乏現在的高官要員包含副總統 正副總統在內都講過這樣的話當初大家當初你們在野的時候示警的原因是什麼叫破窗嘛今天如果來牛要開放或者是要對齊對齊國際標準接下來就是豬肉 對吧"},{"start":1526.652,"end":1542.747,"text":"9號豬肉有沒有如期發生所以無論是牛豬 我們原則是一樣的國人的安全 食品的安全跟國際的規範是同時要達成的ART裡面就寫嘛 以形受體術嘛這些詞大家都幫大家再回想一下這個英宗旨啊"},{"start":1543.908,"end":1545.97,"text":"我們還是要抽檢驗的沒有說什麼全部都好像"},{"start":1566.511,"end":1594.576,"text":"門口一大開不是的還是要有檢驗的標準檢驗的這個程序還是會檢驗但是不是逐批檢驗所以我才講馬鈴薯之亂只是開始不過我還是跟委員強調在邊境的檢查所有的查驗都是依據風險只有他對於這個危害物質有的確近來會有檢查會逐批的查驗這個是一個非常重要的問題你可以花很多時間解釋這院長這是我提醒你我為什麼要講不硬凹不詐騙"},{"start":1595.416,"end":1619.587,"text":"我講的是對內溝通的部分如果你今天基於什麼樣的理由你可以清楚的跟國人大眾說明抱歉我們就是要犧牲這些事你早點講清楚的講不要摻這些有的沒的馬鈴薯只是開始食安的破口大家認定的破口沒有破口我想委員我還是強調我們說的你不相信然後別的網路的謠言你就相信網路謠言啦"},{"start":1621.588,"end":1643.436,"text":"這個是謠言喔我們並沒有做任何的改變我們進來的馬鈴薯都不會是有問題的絕對沒有破口檢疫抽菸的程序改變我們也是有所依據的你與其花很多時間用很多話術去解釋你不如直面現實啦我為什麼剛剛講破窗效應這四個字很重要"},{"start":1644.136,"end":1651.191,"text":"因為當初你們講第一次大家在討論萊克多巴胺萊豬要開放的時候當初政府是怎麼掛保證你還記得嗎"},{"start":1654.318,"end":1677.694,"text":"來 這我們前院長 你們前院長臉都打打下去 打很大力啊寫什麼 圖卡很會做嘛 那時候大家講行政院最會做圖卡圖卡寫什麼 所有 因為為了台美貿易協定的努力啊所以我們當然要做一點讓步嘛 那是我們的門票沒有就沒辦法談CPTPP啦 沒有就沒辦法台美貿易合作啦但是我們一定守護食安嘛 所以豬肉一定要逐批查驗才進口"},{"start":1679.758,"end":1687.401,"text":"對不對四大不變牛豬議題堅持立場你四大不變食安管理機制不變原產地標示不變"},{"start":1689.045,"end":1715.287,"text":"院長 變了沒有 變了沒有你跟我講這樣沒變世大不變沒有變啊人家講你講除皮柴銀才進口現在講除皮柴銀要放寬你跟我講沒有變我剛才跟你講不要搞詐騙你剛才講的世大的部分那個是沒有變的啊校園不進去啊產地標示啊原產地標示ART裡面有沒有寫原產地標示啊有吧說不應該再做產地標示啊只要符合國際標準就不能寫產地標示啊我們沒有變啊 這個我們沒有變啊"},{"start":1718.009,"end":1745.311,"text":"這個就是我們堅持的市面上市場上大家還是可以清楚的看到這樣的標示你總有各式各樣的說法去談這件事但是你的今天的一言一行大家今天在質詢反正公開場合都要經歷大家的檢驗大家相不相信那沒辦法但我們總要把話講清楚很多事情這不是你講的這一套一套因為你當初的掛保證很多東西也出現裂痕這就是我講的破窗效應這也是為什麼我們很擔心這件事情的原因"},{"start":1746.271,"end":1771.596,"text":"這個事實就是進來的每一個產品它必須是健康的 安全的你講這個ART對我們非常好但是你總是忽略大家要付的代價如果它真的這麼好你就趕快跟大家把一次可能未來會遇到的事情講講清楚這是我跟你衷心的承諾但另外我們還是從正面 正面收尾大家又覺得吵架這面對談判的兩要要把握時局 要遵守承諾什麼叫把握時局啊院長下一個談判的變數是什麼"},{"start":1773.597,"end":1776.515,"text":"美國國內的下一個政治變數是什麼 你有沒有掌握啊"},{"start":1778.103,"end":1804.115,"text":"你是說美國的政局的改變 國內可能會遇到什麼事情啊政局的改變嗎 政局的改變啊 對啊 政局的改變落在什麼時候 是什麼樣的事件選舉之後嘛 選舉之後嘛 對不對所以你對時局 你其實是有概念的嘛聰明一點 既然你 我至少今天正面解讀你講謀定而後動 這非常重要因為人要變數啊 我之前也講美國的國會對於關稅政策可是很有意見啦他不會放任川普一個人用單邊主義的方式胡搞瞎搞"},{"start":1804.155,"end":1827.163,"text":"但是我認為國家的政策 外交的努力以及各種經貿的秩序他應該有一個常規你可以有你的節奏 這我尊重但是你必須要非常坦誠透明的告訴大家我們可能會付出什麼代價然後你要遵守你的承諾你不要忘記你屢次宣稱在談判的時候你講啦 糧食安全 國人健康 產業利益跟國家利益如果ART的前提消滅好 謝謝謝謝劉委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:00:43.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:00:44.408000+08:00","text":"（9時）謝謝主席，卓院長有請。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-28T09:00:44.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:00:44.649000+08:00","text":"請卓院長備詢。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:00:44.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:00:57.817000+08:00","text":"牛委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:00:57.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:00:58.118000+08:00","text":"院長早安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:00:59.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:01:03.860000+08:00","text":"本席的質詢一向都是主題式的，一個題目我們講好講滿。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:01:03.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:01:09.062000+08:00","text":"今天的題目是：我們到底在維護公眾利益，還是過程中包含了很多的政治私心？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:01:09.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:01:16.665000+08:00","text":"我要繼續追問臺美關稅談判以及臺美ART貿易協議的相關問題，請院長做好準備。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:01:17.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:01:31.796000+08:00","text":"首先，我們從馬鈴薯之亂開始說起，最近這段時間大家都非常、非常的訝異，因為突然之間，看起來檢疫的流程顯然是有很明顯的放寬。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:01:31.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:01:43.985000+08:00","text":"過去馬鈴薯加工食品如果有查出發芽的狀況，原則上是採取整批退運，也就是我們全面是用從嚴把關的方式，站在食安的角度，設計相關的行政流程。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:01:44.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:01:53.491000+08:00","text":"但是最近突然之間風雲變色，要變成用相對開放的方式，改成逐批查驗，或者是您曾經講過的逐顆查驗。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:01:55.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:02:08.741000+08:00","text":"我覺得很奇怪，我請問一下院長，馬鈴薯之亂或者是馬鈴薯標準檢疫流程的改變，跟臺美貿易協定ART有沒有直接或間接的關係？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:02:08.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:02:09.321000+08:00","text":"請院長回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:02:09.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:02:22.887000+08:00","text":"並沒有最直接的關係，在文字裡面是提到，從美國進口馬鈴薯，如果要變更現在的相關內容的話，要經過雙方的同意，只講到這句話而已。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:02:23.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:02:23.747000+08:00","text":"我就覺得很……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:02:24.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:02:26.828000+08:00","text":"並沒有對細節做任何的規範，並沒有。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:02:26.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:02:33.030000+08:00","text":"我跟委員補充一下，所有貿易的進出口檢疫一定是雙邊經過諮商、討論、確認以後才會執行。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:02:33.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:02:44.718000+08:00","text":"對，你講得很好，就是雙邊諮商、討論之後，然後也許互相交換，再做出一些規則的修正跟改變，對不對？是。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:02:44.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:02:49.823000+08:00","text":"但是馬鈴薯規則的修訂是在談判之前還是談判之後？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:02:50.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:03:24.086000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，這個議題其實在過去兩、三年我們就持續跟美方在做這樣的討論，我在這邊再次強調，我們所有的標準並沒有放寬，我們也不會讓發芽的馬鈴薯或是有毒的、你們所謂有茄鹼的馬鈴薯進口，這是非常確定的，只是在整個的邊境檢查流程中做了改變，這個改變最主要的目的是，因為在歷次0.6%這樣的比例……","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:03:24.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:03:27.828000+08:00","text":"部長，不好意思，我要打斷你，因為你的這些說法其實我們都聽非常多了。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:03:28.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:03:31.090000+08:00","text":"這是我們真實的說法，我希望委員能夠相信。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:03:31.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:03:37.856000+08:00","text":"沒關係，但我今天的問題不是要跟你爭執這些政策上面的細節，我要問的是這件事情跟談判的關係。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:03:40.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:03:47.704000+08:00","text":"卓院長，今年2月13號發布臺美對等貿易協定簽署的相關新聞，在我們投影片的最下面。是。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:03:48.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:04:09.002000+08:00","text":"但是農業部修正相關的檢疫條件，其實在1月的時候就已經先預做處理，很奇怪的是，在你們預做處理的同時，在ART裡面還剛好就這麼寫著未來這個檢疫條件如果要再修正，也許是因為國內壓力或食安需求等等，要再修正的時候，你們也不能片面修正。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:04:10.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:04:17.648000+08:00","text":"開放的時候可以片面開放，可是現在修正，因為有個ART放在這個地方，所以修正之後還要雙邊代表會商。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:04:18.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:04:22.952000+08:00","text":"院長，這感覺是犧牲食安於前、焊死車門於後。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:04:24.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:04:29.579000+08:00","text":"我請問你，在整個臺美談判的時候，馬鈴薯是門票嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:04:29.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:04:30.601000+08:00","text":"還是交換的條件之一？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:04:30.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:04:41.114000+08:00","text":"我還是跟委員報告，我剛才說的雙邊諮商部分，因為美國是說一定要跟他們討論，我們也會跟他們討論，所以是雙邊諮商的文字敘述。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:04:42.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:04:47.461000+08:00","text":"你們現在是放寬，人家比較容易進來，你們如果要再加嚴諮商，人家會同意嗎？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:04:47.461000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:04:48.762000+08:00","text":"如果不同意，你們怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:04:48.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:04:53.647000+08:00","text":"所有的進出口一定是雙邊諮商，討論到有一個共識才會去執行。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:04:54.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:04:56.650000+08:00","text":"所以基本上你很樂意開放，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:04:56.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:04:59.873000+08:00","text":"我就是要問這件事情跟談判的關係，院長回答我的問題就好。是。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:05:00.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:05:15.142000+08:00","text":"照理來講，如果它是在協議裡面的一部分，比如我在協議裡面開放了相關的檢疫標準，我換到了其他比如特定項目的降稅等等，它是一個對等狀態的時候，你好好說服國內，那也就算了，對不對？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:05:15.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:05:16.282000+08:00","text":"但這件事情很奇怪啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:05:18.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:05:24.807000+08:00","text":"這不是協議內容，是在協議之前你就先讓步，然後協議的時候你把車門焊死說不能再改，這很奇怪！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:05:26.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:05:31.012000+08:00","text":"請問院長，我們讓馬鈴薯開放，是急著展現誠意嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:05:31.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:05:31.273000+08:00","text":"還是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:05:31.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:05:32.334000+08:00","text":"你的理由是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:05:32.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:05:36.177000+08:00","text":"你為什麼要先處理這件事情，而不是把它放在協議交換的一部分？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:05:36.177000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:05:37.177000+08:00","text":"請回答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:05:37.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:06:16.681000+08:00","text":"從委員剛剛的時間序我們也看得出來，這不是一朝一夕所形成的，雙方對於進口馬鈴薯流程檢驗的變更，這不是一朝一夕形成的，它是經過雙方多年的各種談判內容，跟這次的談判是無關的，所以在這之前就已經談了很久，若干，因為我們也不希望我們跟國際的標準、國際的規範、國際的做法不對齊，所以這個也是對齊，但是很重要的一點，並沒有放寬或放鬆，我們在美方進口的時候還是有採嚴格的標準，進到我們國內來我們還是要檢驗，只是……","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:06:16.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:06:28.071000+08:00","text":"我剛剛跟部長講過，我也跟你講一樣的話，不好意思打斷你，因為今天時間有限，我沒有要聽你講這些政策的細節，但你講跟談判無關，如果跟談判無關，怎麼剛好ART裡面你就寫了未來規則改變要經過雙邊會商？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:06:29.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:06:42.973000+08:00","text":"政務的推動，每天都在不同的角度、不同的方向、不同的面向一直在推動很多事情，到了雙方對進口馬鈴薯的細節談到成熟的時候，農業部自然就會依照預告的工作來處理。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:06:43.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:06:53.176000+08:00","text":"我就問你，如果今天你本來就在進行一個ART的談判，你把它放在ART的談判裡面作為開放的某一個條件、可以換到別的利益的時候，這樣難道不會比較好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:06:53.176000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:06:54.176000+08:00","text":"事實沒有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:06:53.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:06:54.076000+08:00","text":"你幹嘛先開放於前？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:06:54.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:06:55.576000+08:00","text":"我講不合理的地方就在這裡嘛！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:06:55.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:06:57.597000+08:00","text":"之前就在談了，不是在談關稅的時候才開始談的。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:06:59.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:07:01.499000+08:00","text":"對嘛，你之前就在談，那你到底換了什麼？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:07:02+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:07:06.845000+08:00","text":"你如果不開放馬鈴薯，美國就不跟你繼續談判，不跟你談ART，不跟你簽ART，是嗎？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:07:06.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:07:08.286000+08:00","text":"它是我們的門票嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:07:08.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:07:10.989000+08:00","text":"還是你基於哪一些政治的目的要展現誠意？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:07:11.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:07:12.211000+08:00","text":"你總要有個說法吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:07:12.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:07:20.230000+08:00","text":"我們必須要有科學的根據跟對齊國際的做法，這個就是國際標準、科學根據，他國也是這麼做。所以……","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:07:20.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:07:31.738000+08:00","text":"我們也希望我們去到其他國家的農業產品，不要被這樣子有不合理或是不符合雙方往來的對待，就是貿易障礙要把它排除。","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:07:32.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:07:34.740000+08:00","text":"你到底是為了雙方往來的需要，還是你就這麼主動地要擁抱所謂的國際標準？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:07:38.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:07:39.456000+08:00","text":"國際標準必須要對齊嘛。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:07:40.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:07:46.219000+08:00","text":"國際標準必須要對齊，好，沒關係，你這個回答大家都可受公評，因為這個題目也吵很久了，但是我要提醒你……","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:07:46.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:07:53.742000+08:00","text":"但重點是我們沒有對國內的食品安全有任何的放鬆，對齊國際標準的前提是，我們不會放鬆國內的安全標準。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:07:53.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:07:55.903000+08:00","text":"好，你認為這個沒有任何的放鬆？沒有。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:07:56.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:08:00.145000+08:00","text":"本來可以整批退運，現在不要整批退運，你認為這不叫放鬆？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:08:00.145000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:08:01.145000+08:00","text":"現在進來的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:08:00.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:08:01.125000+08:00","text":"我不跟你爭執這件事。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:08:01.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:08:06.749000+08:00","text":"現在進來的每一顆都還是乾乾淨淨、健健康康的，都沒有長芽、沒有發霉、沒有帶毒。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:08:07.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:08:12.133000+08:00","text":"院長，我為你這樣回答真的是有點擔心，不過沒關係，我們後面還有相關的題目。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:08:13.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:08:31.948000+08:00","text":"我覺得很奇怪，就是我們今天在談ART這件事情，已經不是第一次了，其實在這個場合我已經是第四次跟政府各個官員就教臺美談判的議題，包含我們第3會期的總質詢、第4會期的總質詢、關稅談判的專案報告，那時候是跟鄭副院長，加上今天是第四次了。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:08:32.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:08:36.352000+08:00","text":"院長，你還記不記得我在過去幾次質詢的時候曾經提醒過你的是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:08:36.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:08:39.755000+08:00","text":"有關我們在談判的節奏把握，我有沒有提醒你要注意一些事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:08:40.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:08:41.576000+08:00","text":"你還記得嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:08:41.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:08:44.679000+08:00","text":"委員提了很多，請委員再把重點說一次。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:08:45.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:08:47.791000+08:00","text":"好，我就放影片給你看好了。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:08:48.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:08:48.951000+08:00","text":"（播放影片）","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:11:08.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:11:17.801000+08:00","text":"院長，這是2025年11月7號上一個會期的總質詢，我們一樣在這個位置，你站這邊，我站這邊，大家在討論關稅的進度。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:11:18.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:11:30.845000+08:00","text":"我那時候就很清楚講，你剛剛都看到影片、大家都看到影片，我提醒你最高法院的判決對川普不見得很有利，那時候你的回答是有做了充分的模擬，隨時有應變的準備。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:11:30.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:11:48.795000+08:00","text":"我今天之所以要重新回來談ART，問題就在這裡，其實大家都非常清楚，在整個ART談判裡，唯一對我國可以稱作是利益的事情恐怕只有一件事，叫做「免於被對等關稅疊加所威脅」，你整個談判的目的是不是就是這個？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:11:48.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:11:50.436000+08:00","text":"我們爭取到合理的關稅，而且不疊加。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:11:51.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:11:58.402000+08:00","text":"我就是擔心被對等關稅疊加，然後造成我們跟競爭夥伴的差距，因此競爭力下降，對不對？是。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:11:58.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:12:01.425000+08:00","text":"這是不是你們一路以來都在說的，為什麼要讓步這些東西？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:12:01.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:12:06.429000+08:00","text":"是為了要減緩這個狀況，要免於被威脅，所以當然要好好談這件事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:12:06.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:12:23.756000+08:00","text":"所以我上次總質詢時提醒你，因為最高法院大法官的判決，對於美國關稅政策來講是巨大的變數，這個判決一旦成立，對等關稅就消滅，我們談判對手的最大的武器跟籌碼就消滅了，所以我們可能可以找到談判的利基。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:12:25.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:12:29.683000+08:00","text":"院長，我現在問你，你說你有萬全的模擬跟分析，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:12:29.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:12:36.046000+08:00","text":"你有沒有模擬到當初我講的──最高法院沒收了對等關稅這項武器，有嗎？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:12:36.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:12:43.008000+08:00","text":"其實在談判的後段，還沒有談妥ART的時候，美國的訴訟已經存在了。是啊！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:12:43.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:12:59.957000+08:00","text":"我們那時候就預判如果這個訴訟對行政部門不利的話，他可能會採取其他的法律工具，我們有研判到這個部分，只是那個時候沒有真的把它當作已經發生的事，但是預判的工作都有做。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:13:00.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:13:02.699000+08:00","text":"所以那在你們其中的劇本之一嘛！是。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:13:05.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:13:08.683000+08:00","text":"我剛剛講馬鈴薯的先開放很奇怪，我覺得不太合理，第二個不合理地方就在這裡啊！","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:13:09.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:13:20.771000+08:00","text":"你如果明明就有所準備，你的談判團隊如果是有所準備的話，你怎麼會先簽了協議之後才過一個禮拜人家判決就出來了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:13:21.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:13:26.756000+08:00","text":"你對於他判決可能的時間點沒有任何掌握嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:13:26.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:13:48.620000+08:00","text":"我們都在這裡，我們無法掌握哪一天美國會判決，我們只是知道有一定的時間判決會出來，我們如果提早在那個判決之前做好，至少我們可以確保一下我們在談判過程當中所有團隊的努力，表達我們想爭取的，事實也證明我們爭取到了合理的關稅不疊加，還有很多的豁免，這個都爭取到了。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:13:49.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:13:51.762000+08:00","text":"問題是現在對等關稅已經消滅了，沒關係這後面再講啦！","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:13:51.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:13:56.226000+08:00","text":"現在我們是要確認這個內容的存在，以及確保我們已經獲得了相對的待遇。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:13:56.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:14:12.519000+08:00","text":"院長，因為最後展現出來比較血淋淋的結果，就是你讓東讓西之後，結果你張燈結彩的公布說你談得很棒，你很努力，這我都不否認，我不會否認談判團隊很辛苦，但問題就是8天之後，短短8天就豬羊變色，這是一件很難看的事情啊！","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:14:13.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:14:25.022000+08:00","text":"如果你已經預先掌握了有可能最高法院判決有變數，戰術性的延後一下公布的時間或簽署的時間，這本來才是你因應沙盤推演應該拿出來的理性決策嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:14:25.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:14:32.344000+08:00","text":"而且如果變數還沒有完全落版，你就高調宣傳，這難道是你模擬的想要採納的事嗎？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:14:32.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:14:33.924000+08:00","text":"你到底在搞大內宣，還是在認真談判啊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:14:34.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:14:51.070000+08:00","text":"委員，事後當然我們可以做這種的分析啦，但是你記得當時我也說過，所有產業界都希望政府趕快談好，把這關稅談定，讓大家有所依據，訂單怎麼收、怎麼去都有所依據，這是當時的氣氛，我們是一直在推動往前走。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:14:51.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:06.178000+08:00","text":"院長，你事後可以跟其他人講說怎麼怎麼樣，但我事前就講了，我11月7號就提醒你在前，所以我覺得這很不合理，我相信我們中華民國談判團隊不會沒有預料到這件事，但預料到這件事，卻沒有做出合理的決定，我覺得很奇怪……","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:06.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:12.082000+08:00","text":"我們的決定就是在那個時候爭取最佳的利益，我們也做到了，現在我們在確認這個利益的存在……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:12.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:15.304000+08:00","text":"講以前的事也沒什麼意思，現在的狀況你總是要面對嘛。是。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:15.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:21.108000+08:00","text":"世界各國對於對等關稅被裁定違憲無效之後，他們的反應是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:21.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:22.649000+08:00","text":"院長，你隨便舉幾個例子就好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:22.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:25.131000+08:00","text":"大部分的國家都希望能夠爭取同樣的待遇。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:26.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:27.652000+08:00","text":"什麼叫同樣的待遇？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:27.652000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:28.652000+08:00","text":"你說明一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:27.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:34.014000+08:00","text":"就是在談判已經談好的內容都能夠確定，包括日本大部分國家都是這樣子。是嗎？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:34.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:37.216000+08:00","text":"只有幾個國家認為不想去履行這樣的義務。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:37.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:47.680000+08:00","text":"我一個一個念給你聽，本來印度是還沒談完的嘛……農委部長請回，我看你一直站在那邊，我沒有要為難你的意思，沒關係，你可以先回去坐，沒事的，等一下再上來就好。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:48.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:52.902000+08:00","text":"印度談判沒有談完，沒談完他之後怎麼辦？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:52.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:54.163000+08:00","text":"他遇到大法官判決怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:54.163000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:55.163000+08:00","text":"可能要面對301……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:55.163000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:56.163000+08:00","text":"繼續301、122調查，他會繼續往這個方向走，他就沒有一個基礎可以讓他依據，但我們是有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:54.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:57.564000+08:00","text":"印度政府說，他當然期待關稅可以有效調降，但是貿易代表團傾向觀察判決的後續發展，再決定是否要進一步推進談判。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:57.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:58.124000+08:00","text":"歐盟的反應怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:58.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:59.404000+08:00","text":"歐盟遇到這樣的事，歐盟是不是跟美國有簽協議？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:15:59.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:15:59.704000+08:00","text":"歐洲議會怎麼回應？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-28T09:16:19.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:16:23.373000+08:00","text":"是啊，歐盟他們本來就希望已經談好了，不要再有所變動。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:16:23.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:16:24.714000+08:00","text":"沒有再有所變動嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:16:24.714000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:16:26.576000+08:00","text":"歐洲議會批准了沒？","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-28T09:16:26.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:16:31.940000+08:00","text":"因為122以後，他現在課的是10%的暫時性關稅。是嘛！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-28T09:16:32.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:16:36.685000+08:00","text":"跟原來歐盟有一點點差異，但是歐盟還是希望他可以享受到最優惠的待遇。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:16:38.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:16:48.054000+08:00","text":"歐洲議會是直接講了要暫緩審批相關的協議，因為說裁決後的計畫要採取相應的措施，也當然要重新保持密切溝通，所以人家也是在看嘛！","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-28T09:16:48.054000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:16:49.054000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們也是跟美方……","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:16:49.054000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:16:50.054000+08:00","text":"我還沒問你們要幹嘛啦，不要急嘛！","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:16:48.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:17:16.159000+08:00","text":"法國總統馬克宏說，要評估相關影響，並且做出合理適當的調整措施；加拿大說，要努力幫助企業跟相關工人；即便是日本，日本當然是非常親美的一個國家，他也講說動搖了日美關稅協議的前提基礎，但是因為跟美國關係很重要，所以還是要加強相關的關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:17:16.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:17:22.707000+08:00","text":"你剛剛馬上就舉日本為例，我就把它講得清楚一點；南韓政府說，要以國家利益為首要任務，重新審視簽訂的貿易協議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:17:25.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:17:30.531000+08:00","text":"這我就不多講，世界各國的共通性是什麼，我當然要謀定而後動嘛！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:17:31.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:17:36.914000+08:00","text":"我要看一下對等關稅消滅、新的局勢之後，再做有效因應。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:17:42.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:17:46.125000+08:00","text":"部長剛剛也急著講我們也是這樣，我們要謀定而後動，對嗎？是。是。是嘛！","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:17:47.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:17:48.126000+08:00","text":"現在狀況是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:17:48.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:17:58.789000+08:00","text":"因為我們在新聞界或者是在第一時間政府回應的時候，我覺得你回得也不乾脆啊，你說相關談判還是對我們很有利的，相關的文本還是什麼什麼，你講了一大堆有的沒的，你一開始就講謀定而後動不就好了嗎？","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:17:58.789000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:17:59.789000+08:00","text":"為什麼我講到謀定而後動，甚至要重新思考，請問臺美ART裡面有提到122關稅嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:17:59.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:18:18.159000+08:00","text":"我們的講法不同，但是我們的目的是相同，我們說我們要確認雙方已經談好的ART內容，確保我們所得到優惠的待遇能夠持續下去，這個就是謀定。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:18:18.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:18:27.848000+08:00","text":"我剛剛已經講了嘛，整個ART裡面你談的最大的重點就是你避免被課徵對等關稅嘛，避免被課徵對等關稅這些就達成了，因為他違憲了嘛！","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:18:28.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:18:30.270000+08:00","text":"那請問新的利多是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:18:30.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:18:30.911000+08:00","text":"我要問的是這個啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-28T09:18:31.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:18:37.436000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為美國還在重建他可能的法律依據，所以他為什麼要提出301來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-28T09:18:38.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:18:40.928000+08:00","text":"這個有可能是他在重建他的法律依據。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:18:41.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:18:43.249000+08:00","text":"有可能對不對，那請問現在的狀況……","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-28T09:18:43.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:18:48.472000+08:00","text":"所以我們持續跟美方溝通，就是要鞏固我們原來已經談好的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:18:48.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:18:55.156000+08:00","text":"你回答我寫在投影片上面這三件事就好，第一個，現在你的文本協定裡面有沒有提到122條款？","quality":0.757},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:18:55.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:18:56.199000+08:00","text":"沒有吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-28T09:18:56.199000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:18:57.220000+08:00","text":"當然沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:18:57.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:19:00.783000+08:00","text":"當然沒有，你談的時候根本就沒有這件事，怎麼會有122條款。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:19:01.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:19:05.806000+08:00","text":"我現在問一下122條款，因為你當初談完對等關稅是不疊加的嘛，對不對？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-28T09:19:05.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:19:07.567000+08:00","text":"可是因為122條款是一個暫時性的。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:19:07.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:19:09.089000+08:00","text":"它是一個暫時性的，沒錯！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:19:09.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:19:12.111000+08:00","text":"那122條款有沒有疊加本來的最惠國待遇？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-28T09:19:12.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:19:13.272000+08:00","text":"因為它是暫時性的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:19:13.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:19:15.673000+08:00","text":"所以都是有的嘛，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:19:15.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:19:16.314000+08:00","text":"122是有疊加的嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-28T09:19:16.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:19:22.481000+08:00","text":"對，所以他在尋求他的法律依據的時候，不會用122，122是一個暫時性的。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:19:22.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:19:33.322000+08:00","text":"它是暫時性的沒有錯嘛，但是對等關稅沒了嘛，122是暫時性的，可是ART，他提的對等關稅已經沒了，122現在又只是暫時性措施，對不對？對。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:19:33.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:19:43.988000+08:00","text":"所以其實對我們來講是沒什麼傷害的嘛，我有看經濟部相關的回應，目前對產業的溝通還算穩得住局勢，因為你現在沒有壓力啊，你現在沒有威脅嘛，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-28T09:19:43.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:19:45.188000+08:00","text":"因為現在是10%疊加。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:19:46.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:19:51.111000+08:00","text":"對，10%疊加相對可控，比起那個三十幾趴加疊加，會死人的。是、是。","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:19:52.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:19:52.772000+08:00","text":"十幾趴還算可控，對不對？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:19:52.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:19:55.374000+08:00","text":"現在也沒有對等關稅的威脅，122還算可控。是。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:19:56.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:19:57.595000+08:00","text":"那ART還有必要那麼急嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:19:57.595000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:19:59.055000+08:00","text":"我請教一下。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-28T09:19:59.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:20:03.296000+08:00","text":"我剛剛提到美國可能會利用301還有其他的條例……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:20:03.296000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:20:04.296000+08:00","text":"對，有可能。","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-28T09:20:03.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:20:04.577000+08:00","text":"重建他們……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:20:04.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:20:26.203000+08:00","text":"所以剛剛我講很多國家也有在預做準備，這我不否定，你的談判團隊本來就要預做準備，但是我要提醒這中間其實已經有蠻多不合理的地方，如果你早先面對關稅這個題目豬羊變色，你的回應是很乾脆的，我們跟世界各國看齊，因應新的局勢，我要全面停下腳步，重新審視，重新溝通。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:20:26.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:20:37.330000+08:00","text":"我覺得大家對於這個東西的疑慮跟擔心會少非常多，但是我必須很誠實跟院長講，我們看到的是我們還是很優惠啊，可是你夾帶那麼多宣傳的要素在裡面幹嘛呢？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:20:37.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:20:49.278000+08:00","text":"我們回到事實來談這件事就好，我目前為止看到整個關稅三個大的不合理：第一個，協定批准前，現在這個ART，你也沒有送立法院，所以當然沒有批准，美國也還沒有批准，對不對？對。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:20:49.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:20:52.341000+08:00","text":"所以ART目前的條文其實是不生任何效力的，對嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-28T09:20:53.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:20:53.741000+08:00","text":"還沒有生效。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:20:54.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:20:54.882000+08:00","text":"還沒生效，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:20:54.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:20:58.164000+08:00","text":"好，至少我們今天就事實基礎上在講話。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:20:58.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:21:00.766000+08:00","text":"協定批准前，所以我就講你馬鈴薯放寬的東西很奇怪嘛！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:21:02.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:21:02.727000+08:00","text":"我還是要強調……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:21:04.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:21:04.048000+08:00","text":"你要強調……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:21:04.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:21:09.171000+08:00","text":"馬鈴薯這些條件的改變是平常對任何產品貿易條件都在改變……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:21:09.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:21:10.812000+08:00","text":"你都在滾動式檢討，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:21:10.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:21:15.774000+08:00","text":"我都幫你把詞講出來了，但自行放寬、自行改變標準，很奇怪啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:21:16.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:21:16.555000+08:00","text":"這是第一個不合理。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:21:17.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:21:32.418000+08:00","text":"第二個，我剛剛跟院長講，我都已經預言在前了，可能會有大法官判決這個變數，你壓力可能會非常大，可能會豬羊變色，可是你顯然還是出現了翻盤鬧劇，你還先張燈結彩，再豬羊變色，整個變成進退失據。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:21:32.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:21:45.841000+08:00","text":"第三個，明明對等關稅都已經消滅了，但我們的團隊還不面對現實，不管你要謀定而後動也好，我是覺得政治都要重啟談判，就算你真的要跟美國簽貿易協定，你文本的文字總要改變吧？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:21:46.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:21:48.382000+08:00","text":"你總要爭取新的讓步空間吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:21:48.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:21:51.644000+08:00","text":"美國也要對我們釋出善意吧，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:21:51.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:21:56.986000+08:00","text":"要不然現在對等關稅已經沒了，我們的好處都不見了，可是我們的開放都還在啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:21:57.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:22:01.909000+08:00","text":"報告委員，如果美國經過301調查，我們也做了合理的說明之後，我希望雙方形式上不是重啟談判……","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:22:01.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:22:05.231000+08:00","text":"你現在ART裡面有沒有講我們一定豁免301調查，沒有吧？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:22:05.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:22:11.575000+08:00","text":"我覺得形式上不要說是重啟談判，是確認我們已經得到這些優惠的待遇，要確認、確保。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:22:11.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:22:14.057000+08:00","text":"我看了一下ART的文本，如果我沒有記錯的話……","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-04-28T09:22:14.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:22:29.589000+08:00","text":"報告委員，現在分兩個部分，一個部分是談判最後的結果，我們希望鞏固，但是另外一個是法律的依據，法律的依據他們先前有了問題，他現在在修正他的法律依據，假如法律修正好以後，我們希望那個談判結果不要改變。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:22:30.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:22:40.219000+08:00","text":"希望談判結果不要改變，我的意思是，前面是我們開了馬鈴薯，後面還開別的，我等一下跟你講，換到的是不課對等關稅，這是以前的平衡，對不對？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:22:41.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:22:51.490000+08:00","text":"你現在講對等關稅已經沒了，我們這些開放還在，你現在又講不出來，到底我們可以得到哪些白紙黑字的具體誘因，然後你講我要維持，這件事很危險，而且非常不合理。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:22:51.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:23:10.052000+08:00","text":"我想跟委員報告，其實在ART的談判過程中，有一些301本來在調查的項目，其實已經在談判過程中有個比較好的結果，所以我們如果確保我們ART談判的內容的話，相對可能對於301以後的調查報告是有幫助的，這是我們的重點。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:23:10.052000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:23:11.052000+08:00","text":"有沒有寫出來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:23:10.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:23:13.213000+08:00","text":"就跟我們剛剛談122一樣，你有沒有白紙黑字寫進去？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:23:13.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:23:18.136000+08:00","text":"如果有白紙黑字寫進去，你可以講說這是我換到的東西，我們就按照事實來講，但是……","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:23:20.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:23:29.401000+08:00","text":"301的調查報告還沒出來，可是相對在ART裡面的內容已經有很好的共識的時候，他們在301裡面就不會有比較嚴格的要求。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:23:29.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:23:48.930000+08:00","text":"院長，我只建議你不要在這邊堅稱對我有利，整個結構都已經改變了，你要謀定而後動，我至少今天聽到了謀定而後動，我稍微鬆了一口氣，不要急，現在大家要繼續面對這個談判，因為剩最後7分鐘，我還是要講一下幾個原則「兩不兩要」，兩不：不硬拗、不詐騙。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:23:53.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:24:01.875000+08:00","text":"大家都看馬鈴薯之亂，ART文本裡面可不只寫馬鈴薯，馬鈴薯只是前菜而已，萊豬、萊牛才是大家比較擔心的事。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:24:01.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:24:15.321000+08:00","text":"ART的文本，我已經放出來給大家看，在他宣稱的非關稅貿易障礙裡面，直接提以後要終止牛肉的逐箱查驗跟冷凍查驗程序，有沒有這件事？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:24:15.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:24:16.181000+08:00","text":"農委會部長你可以回答了。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:24:17.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:24:35.315000+08:00","text":"這是衛福部邊境檢定，但是相對的逐箱查驗是在非常特殊的狀況，是已經發現到有違禁的部分才會逐箱查驗，我們過去對於所有國家都是用抽批的方式，依照它的風險，如果風險太高才會達到100%，就是所謂的逐箱查驗。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:24:36.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:24:39.138000+08:00","text":"院長，我貼上去的內容應該沒有錯吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:24:39.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:24:40.219000+08:00","text":"這就是ART的文本。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:24:41.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:24:57.776000+08:00","text":"對於我們非疫區的肉品進來，我們採取的措施要跟國際的做法一樣，所以我們現在必須改變的方式是我們對於疫區的認定，以及美牛是不是來自疫區，這個跟國際的做法要一樣，我們就可以採取一樣的作業標準。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:24:58.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:24:59.358000+08:00","text":"所以你就是要開放嘛，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:25:01.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:25:16.469000+08:00","text":"委員不能這樣講，如果以美牛來講，過去BSE的部分，它在相關規定是有規範的，但是美國現在已經變為BSE可忽略的國家，也就表示他不必向WHO通報。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:25:17.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:25:24.679000+08:00","text":"相對地，所有檢疫程序的條文，對於相關規範就必須做適度符合國際規範的更改。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:25:25.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:25:28.424000+08:00","text":"又國際規範，我們又聽到這件事，這以前大家都講過嘛！","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:25:28.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:25:43.097000+08:00","text":"院長，簡報右邊是豬肉標準的部分，以前要開放美牛的時候，大家講會破窗，那時候是國民黨執政，整個民進黨震天價響喊重啟談判，不惜一切守護人民食安，言猶在耳啊！","quality":0.809},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:25:43.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:25:50.123000+08:00","text":"不乏現在的高官要員，包含正副總統在內都講過這樣的話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:25:50.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:25:52.505000+08:00","text":"當初你們在野的時候，示警的原因是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:25:52.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:25:53.225000+08:00","text":"叫破窗嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:25:53.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:25:57.268000+08:00","text":"今天如果萊牛要開放，或者是要對齊國際標準，接下來就是豬肉，對吧！","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:26:01.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:26:02.853000+08:00","text":"結果豬肉有沒有如期發生？有吧！","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:26:03.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:26:06.116000+08:00","text":"無論是牛豬，我們原則是一樣……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:26:06.116000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:26:07.116000+08:00","text":"原則是一樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:26:06.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:26:10.440000+08:00","text":"國人的安全、食品的安全跟國際規範是同時要達成的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:26:10.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:26:12.783000+08:00","text":"ART裡就寫乙型受體素嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:26:13.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:26:15.766000+08:00","text":"這些詞幫大家再回想一下，「應終止駐美國臺北經濟文化代表處代表領域……」就臺灣嘛！","quality":0.324},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:26:15.766000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:26:16.766000+08:00","text":"「……之機關，對豬肉及豬肉產品之百分之百逐批檢測乙型受體素之做法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:26:16.766000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:26:17.766000+08:00","text":"」也就是豬肉的逐批查驗，你也要開放嘛，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:26:17.766000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:26:18.766000+08:00","text":"我沒有理解錯誤吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:26:18.766000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:26:19.766000+08:00","text":"條文就這樣寫的，是嗎？","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:26:18.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:26:42.631000+08:00","text":"我們還是要抽驗、檢驗的，沒有說什麼全部都好像門口一大開，不是的！","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:26:43.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:26:45.932000+08:00","text":"還是要有檢驗的標準及程序。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:26:46.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:26:48.172000+08:00","text":"還是會檢驗，但不是逐批檢測嘛！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:26:48.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:26:50.353000+08:00","text":"所以我才講馬鈴薯之亂只是開始，對不對？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:26:51.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:27:05.695000+08:00","text":"不過我還是要跟委員強調，有關在邊境的檢查，所有查驗都是依據風險，只有對於危害物質在進來會有危險時，才會逐批查驗，這是一個非常重要的關鍵。","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:27:05.695000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:27:06.695000+08:00","text":"沒關係！","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:27:05.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:27:07.235000+08:00","text":"你可以花很多時間解釋。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:27:07.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:27:11.897000+08:00","text":"不過院長，這我提醒你，我為什麼要講不硬柪、不詐騙，我講的是對內溝通的部分。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:27:12.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:27:17.299000+08:00","text":"如果你今天基於什麼樣的理由，你可以清楚跟國人大眾說明：歹勢！","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:27:17.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:27:18.900000+08:00","text":"我們就是要犧牲這些事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:27:19.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:27:26.343000+08:00","text":"你早點講、清楚的講，不要摻這些有的沒的，馬鈴薯只是開始、食安的破口，大家認定的破口……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:27:26.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:27:27.284000+08:00","text":"沒有破口。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:27:27.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:27:28.884000+08:00","text":"我想沒有破口。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:27:29.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:27:33.727000+08:00","text":"委員，我還是要強調，我們說的你不相信，而別的網路謠言，你就相信……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:27:34.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:27:34.447000+08:00","text":"網路謠言？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:27:34.447000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:27:36.588000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，我都……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:27:36.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:27:37.048000+08:00","text":"這個是謠言喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:27:37.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:27:40.869000+08:00","text":"我們並沒有做任何的改變。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:27:40.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:27:49.452000+08:00","text":"委員，我一句話，我們進來的馬鈴薯都不會有問題的，這絕對沒有破口，檢疫、抽驗的程序改變，我們也是有所依據的。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:27:50.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:27:54.114000+08:00","text":"院長，我給你的建議是，你與其花很多時間及用很多話術去解釋，你不如直面現實啦！","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:27:56.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:28:06.191000+08:00","text":"我之所以為什麼剛剛講「破窗效應」這四個字很重要，因為當初你們講，第一次大家在討論含有萊克多巴胺的萊豬要開放的時候，當初政府是怎麼掛保證，你還記得嗎？","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:28:09.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:28:12.540000+08:00","text":"來，這簡報上是你們前院長，這臉打下去、打很大力啊！","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:28:13.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:28:13.941000+08:00","text":"寫什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:28:13.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:28:14.601000+08:00","text":"圖卡很會做嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:28:14.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:28:17.984000+08:00","text":"那時候大家講行政院最會做圖卡，圖卡寫什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:28:19.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:28:22.827000+08:00","text":"為了臺美貿易協定的努力，所以我們當然要做一點讓步嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:28:22.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:28:27.910000+08:00","text":"那是我們的門票，沒有就沒辦法談CPTPP，沒有就沒辦法臺美貿易合作啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:28:28.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:28:34.998000+08:00","text":"但是我們一定守護食安，所以豬肉一定要逐批查驗才進口，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:28:34.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:28:42.401000+08:00","text":"什麼四大不變，「牛豬議題，堅持立場」四大不變，包括食安管理機制不變、原產地標示不變等。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:28:44.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:28:45.246000+08:00","text":"院長，變了沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:28:45.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:28:45.947000+08:00","text":"沒有變啊！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:28:45.947000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:28:46.947000+08:00","text":"都沒有變啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:28:46.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:28:48.389000+08:00","text":"你跟我講這樣沒變？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:28:48.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:28:49.229000+08:00","text":"四大不變，沒有變啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:28:50.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:28:54.354000+08:00","text":"你講逐批查驗才進口，現在講逐批查驗要放寬，你跟我講沒有變？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:28:54.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:28:56.595000+08:00","text":"我剛才跟你講不要硬拗、不要搞詐騙！","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:28:56.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:28:59.157000+08:00","text":"你剛才講四大不變的部分，那個是沒有變啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:29:00.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:29:02.360000+08:00","text":"像校園不進去、產地標示。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:29:03.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:29:03.661000+08:00","text":"原產地標示？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:29:03.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:29:05.603000+08:00","text":"ART裡面有沒有寫原產地標示？有吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:29:06.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:29:09.386000+08:00","text":"說不應該再做產地標示，只要符合國際標準就不能寫產地標示。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:29:09.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:29:10.006000+08:00","text":"這標準我們沒有變。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:29:10.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:29:10.267000+08:00","text":"這個我們沒有變啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:29:10.267000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:29:13.009000+08:00","text":"我只問你們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳部長駿季","start":"2026-04-28T09:29:13.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:29:13.990000+08:00","text":"這就是我們堅持的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:29:14.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:29:17.633000+08:00","text":"市面上、市場上，大家還是可以清楚地看到這樣的標示。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:29:18.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:29:27.761000+08:00","text":"你總有各式各樣的說法去談這件事，但是你今天的一言一行，大家今天在質詢，反正是公開場合，都要經歷大家的檢驗，大家相不相信，沒辦法！","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:29:28.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:29:40.291000+08:00","text":"但我們總要把話講清楚，很多事情不是你講的這一套，因為你們當初掛保證，很多東西也出現裂痕，這就是我講的破窗效應，這也是為什麼我們很擔心這件事情的原因。院長……","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:29:41.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:29:46.232000+08:00","text":"事實就是進來的每一個產品必須是健康的、安全的，這就是事實。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:29:46.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:29:57.174000+08:00","text":"我們剛剛提到的，你講ART對我們非常好，但是你總是忽略大家要付出的代價，如果它真的這麼好，你就趕快一次跟大家把未來可能會遇到的事情講清楚，這是我跟你衷心的提醒。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:29:57.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:30:05.876000+08:00","text":"但另外我們還是從正面，大家覺得吵架……面對談判的兩要，要把握時局，要遵守承諾，什麼叫把握時局？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:30:06.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:30:06.596000+08:00","text":"院長，下一個談判的變數是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:30:08.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:30:11.314000+08:00","text":"美國國內下一個政治變數是什麼，你有沒有掌握？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:30:13.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:30:14.964000+08:00","text":"你是說美國政局的改變嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:30:14.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:30:15.764000+08:00","text":"國內可能會遇到什麼事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:30:16.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:30:17.805000+08:00","text":"政局的改變嗎？對啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:30:18.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:30:19.706000+08:00","text":"政局的改變落在什麼時候？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:30:19.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:30:20.346000+08:00","text":"是什麼樣的事件？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:30:21.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:30:21.487000+08:00","text":"選舉之後吧！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:30:21.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:30:22.868000+08:00","text":"選舉之後嘛，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:30:22.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:30:32.132000+08:00","text":"所以你對時局其實是有概念的嘛，聰明一點，至少我今天正面解讀，你講謀定而後動，這真的非常重要，因為人家有變數啊！","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:30:32.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:30:39.095000+08:00","text":"我之前也講，美國國會對於關稅政策可是很有意見，他不會放任川普一個人用單邊主義的方式胡搞瞎搞。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:30:39.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:30:44.177000+08:00","text":"但是我認為國家的政策、外交的努力，以及各種經貿的秩序，應該有一個常軌……","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:30:44.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:30:45.997000+08:00","text":"你可以有你的節奏，這我尊重你……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:30:45.997000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:30:46.997000+08:00","text":"有一個常軌可以遵循。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:30:46.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:30:50.759000+08:00","text":"但是你必須要非常坦誠、透明地告訴大家，我們可能會付出什麼代價。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:30:50.759000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:30:51.759000+08:00","text":"我們會非常緊密地注意、關注。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-04-28T09:30:50.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:31:02.043000+08:00","text":"然後你要遵守你的承諾，你不要忘記，你屢次宣稱在談判的時候，你講糧食安全、國人健康、產業利益跟國家利益，如果ART的前提消滅，很多事情要重新考慮的，請院長三思啦！謝謝。","quality":0.753},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2026-04-28T09:31:02.043000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:31:03.043000+08:00","text":"我們正在確保這樣子的結果，我們繼續努力，謝謝。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-28T09:31:02.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-28T09:31:02.163000+08:00","text":"謝謝牛委員，謝謝卓院長。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-28T09:31:02.663000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-28T09:31:05.805857+08:00","text":"下一位請蔡春綢委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}