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謝謝委員因為委員"},{"start":129.927,"end":152.064,"text":"其實過去很關心這個工業區附近的弱勢特別是中小學所以在這個去年我們就開始啟動了針對這種弱勢地區全台灣大概22個地方例如說中部也有高雄有高雄是目前最多的目前整個整個我們特別針對那個學校附近來進行一些監測防護的工作把他的源頭找到甚至我們也主動跟那個工業區說我們會進去查"},{"start":153.425,"end":182.457,"text":"所以目前的這個程序都在進行當中那我相信這樣的方式有助於改善附近周遭附近的這個弱勢那另外一個呢是我們的工業區的整個排放來說的話不管是立裝物或是Nexus其實過去的都顯著的一個下降當然我必須說也有進步的空間但是這個下降的速度空污減排甚至這個空氣品質濃度的數字都有顯著的降低部長我認為新型制度必須往更精準更透明"},{"start":183.018,"end":185.676,"text":"更能被檢驗來前進 台灣很小任何在產"},{"start":187.537,"end":210.454,"text":"任何在地的那個產生的空氣污染都可能擴散到鄰近的縣市所以空污的治理不能只靠地方各自努力也必須中央一致可信可檢驗的制度現行環境部對大型的固定污染源的管道排放的自動監測設施也就是SIMS去年爭議的很大的數據擷取的處理系統DHS"},{"start":214.077,"end":242.171,"text":"要怎麼防止人為操作錯誤的註記數據的修改或把異常的數據排除掉最近公告的固定污染源空氣污染物的連續自動監測設施的管理辦法會導入中央的審驗機制部長這已經是設的場所是否都能夠在116年的1月1日取得合格證明目前進度在哪裡然後幾家的火力發電廠都已經完成了我們請我們市長來詳細的回答"},{"start":242.932,"end":258.242,"text":"向委員報告這個法在上一次在大便的時候大便委員特別關切所以我們重新做修法的預告我們在今年的2月24號將這個辦法做修法預告也就誠如剛才委員所說的我們改為由中央來審查這個數據擷取系統這個所謂的DAS系統"},{"start":261.624,"end":282.176,"text":"那我目前明定的是116年之前要完成但是目前我們正在籌組召開研商會議那研商的部分我們會再讓各界來表達意見看看是不是有需要做調整的空間那這法通過以後就將來就是由中央來負責審查各個目前將近連線大概有500處的這個所謂的相關的自動連續監測系統的資訊系統"},{"start":286.579,"end":307.029,"text":"然後我們希望藉由這樣的把關能夠確保相關的數據能夠公正而且能夠精準那此外呢這相關的數據在目前沒有還沒有修法完成之前其實我們相關自動連續監測系統其實在我們本部的網頁或者是大家手邊有的我們環境即時通的APP裡面其實都有提供這個數據讓民眾理解"},{"start":308.59,"end":326.265,"text":"再來中央要承認SIMS體檢的專家小組過去大家也質疑說地方食物的查核標準不一致請問這個專家小組要怎麼確保獨立專業還有功能達標操作透明若業者不合格後提出申複的話那程序怎麼走"},{"start":327.105,"end":349.099,"text":"對 謝謝委員 這個其實過去也是大約委的委員有提出這樣的問題那我們其實也做了一個檢討所以現在的確是有一個小組 體檢小組有針對有一些有問題的去查核過那未來呢 這個是由我們中央全部由我們來執行而且會有一個專家委員會來負責督導來看這個事情那這個數據也當然都全部公開也是開放資料讓大家可以下載的出來"},{"start":350.08,"end":375.25,"text":"部長 我從去年就一直強調政府網站公開數據不是公開就好啦 而是要讓民看得懂請問部長 這些SIMS的監測數值一般文科大學生可以直接看得懂嗎如果連關心環境的民眾都看不懂了透明就只是停留在形式上所以中央規範是不是應該建立一套更友善的公開機制讓民眾能理解 也能夠共同參與也可能共同來監督"},{"start":376.13,"end":404.688,"text":"目前這個其實針對一些敏感性的學校我們有一些工業區旁邊的我們都有一些做法了那委員提出的做法很好因為其實現在我們是開放放在那個地方或是手機可以看對可是大家看不懂看不懂但是我例如說我現在其實也會嘗試用AI的工具直接爬下來直接自己畫我們會盡量把這樣的一個程序看能不能有一個機制能夠讓大家可以更直接親近這個數據甚至來監督我們有沒有做得好不好我們可以來做這些事情"},{"start":405.609,"end":421.679,"text":"好不好意思那個召委因為沒有訊號這個我們會來推動因為我自己也是從這個數據去撈下來自己去做分析比較那因為現在的很多的AI工具都非常的方便可以時間暫停嗎"},{"start":439.585,"end":455.292,"text":"要拿綠色乖乖嗎要先暫停嗎對啊他說請資訊委員來那請休息一下那我們先休息的那個對時間暫停"},{"start":464.308,"end":464.568,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":476.186,"end":480.808,"text":"因為在傳訊提供上面都有數字啊 知道了才會點而且相較於空瓶資訊"},{"start":502.856,"end":516.911,"text":"現在這個工作也不在我們家我們在跟資格師來考慮這個懷孕系統一定要跟資格師去考慮可是不是就我們物質之中啊可能要有一個網頁網頁一樣Friendly我們要處理我們有網頁然後也有懷孕系統網頁請同學比較好看"},{"start":592.437,"end":599.861,"text":"什麼寫到這裡"},{"start":616.492,"end":618.733,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":629.599,"end":629.779,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":655.12,"end":657.666,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":707.315,"end":713.158,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":718.643,"end":723.011,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":737.995,"end":757.227,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":759.019,"end":759.34,"text":"美食餐廳"},{"start":773.916,"end":797.79,"text":"來來來來"},{"start":819.842,"end":824.788,"text":"OK嗎 OK了嗎OK了嗎"},{"start":838.889,"end":840.03,"text":"主席麻煩我們的台電副總"},{"start":874.908,"end":883.776,"text":"副總 外界談火力電廠常常會變成一句話 藍媒等於空污那台電今年提出來一組數據說藍媒電廠空污排放量從2016年到2025年減幅達77%"},{"start":890.82,"end":905.595,"text":"台中電廠在2018年到2025年的空瓶不良期間也執行了超過3600次的那個降載的一個排碳台電可不可以說是我們的煙沖排放的濃度合規"},{"start":907.617,"end":924.29,"text":"居民真正關心的事實上是長期暴露在風險區域的累積的污染備用機組的啟動時段以及空品不良日有沒有及時降災所以想問台電說空品不良日台電到底怎麼決定哪些機組要降災"},{"start":925.058,"end":945.672,"text":"是,跟委員報告,台電會依照環境部所公布的空氣品質預報的情況如果在空氣品質指標AQI大於100的情況下,我們就會進行機組降載的評估一定會優先確保系統供電安全然後在這個預報可能會AQI超過100的地區的上峰處去做燃煤跟燃油機組的降載"},{"start":947.354,"end":974.814,"text":"那台電在空氣品質保護的說明裡面也提到說空品的那個監測站事實上是依據環評報告中的一個空污擴散模擬的結果設在最大增量或者是環境敏感地區而且特別說明這事實上是跟環保署的設站不同我先提醒一下台電現在已經是環境部了台電的空評議題備受關注連網站文字都不應該"},{"start":976.178,"end":995.971,"text":"沒有去更新 更新得這麼滿這個網站到底多久更新一次啊是 這個文字上的部分我們可能我們回去再檢討修正但是所有的這些數據都是即時的數據對 可是更重要的是一般民眾看到這段文字的話根本不一定看得懂所以我問台電說所謂環境部不同到底是什麼意思"},{"start":1000.223,"end":1023.506,"text":"你特別說環保署不同 我們講說那到底是什麼意思因為我們依照環評審查的結論可能會因為環評委員的要求會增加一些策站但是環境部這個也會有一些策站那所以我們如果這個策站是跟環境部目前的策站不同我們就會特別指明所以大概會有兩種可能的這個策站的來源"},{"start":1024.486,"end":1048.46,"text":"那環境敏感地區又是指什麼是住宅學校醫院入口密集聚落還是自然保護區是什麼對空瓶的這個特別有敏感的地方大概是這樣子的那是住宅嗎還是學校還是是醫院還是人口那個比較密集的聚落好這個部分我這個比較細節的部分我請環保處長來說明"},{"start":1050.804,"end":1065.5,"text":"謝謝委員 基本上是這樣子其實委員剛剛垂詢的是我們在環評之後我們會在我們一些所謂的環境比較敏感的地方去佈設所謂的空品策戰那換言之就是說我們在我們做環境影響評估的時候"},{"start":1066.101,"end":1090.092,"text":"我們會特別去了解我們的這些固定亂源 特別是我們的電廠我們空屋排放之後 我們這些空屋它的擴散的模擬的結果那我們怎麼樣去布點才會真正收集到最有效的數據這個地方就是剛剛委員所關心的這個所謂的敏感的地方那你現在台電現在設定的一個策戰位置是否可以理解成能夠反映周遭民眾可能受到的影響"},{"start":1090.697,"end":1105.687,"text":"可以這樣解釋嗎就是台電的策戰再加上這個環境部的策戰那整體來講的話會反映當地地區的一些空氣品質變化的情況確實是這個樣子好那我還是要跟一樣問問彭部長的問題一樣的就這些資料未來"},{"start":1107.268,"end":1126.765,"text":"還是一樣台電我覺得未來可不可以用人民看得懂的方式公開而不是放工程格式表格我要問的是台電那中部的民眾高度關注中火的那個空污的排放對空氣品質的影響台電是否有整合性的資訊平台然後揭露中火主"},{"start":1127.566,"end":1144.431,"text":"那個中國機組的那個運轉排放狀況及周邊的空瓶的那個檢測的那個測站的數據是讓想了解的民眾跟關係人都能夠快速去理解是那各位報告這個有關資料呈現的這個清明性的部分我們回去再檢討"},{"start":1145.191,"end":1162.226,"text":"那至於這個有關台中電廠有關他的污染排放量排放的濃度以及附近空瓶測站的一個結果給他用沒量台電確實在台電的網站上有一個專門的網頁有把這三個資訊整合在一起好我最後要去問的是從民眾的健康角度來看的話台灣不能只"},{"start":1163.439,"end":1190.899,"text":"說空瓶不良日有降載我要請問台電是今年各火力發電廠在正常的運作期間那個SIMS的監測到的流氧化物 氮氧化物跟我們的粒狀污染物排放的濃度與排放總量以及周邊空瓶監測的那個PM2.5 PM10NO2跟SO2的數據是否呈現穩定改善"},{"start":1192.076,"end":1214.61,"text":"各位委員報告因為策戰裡面所測得到的空污的這個結果不會只有因為電廠的這個影響所以說台電公司不會只有在這個空氣不良日的時候才減少發電所以燃煤部分以中火為例過去到現在為止過去10年已經減煤了4成以上空污已經減了8成所以說這最後的一個結果都是在"},{"start":1215.49,"end":1233.52,"text":"就是不在空瓶屋的時候我們還盡量減煤所以去年已經減到1100萬噸以下了我們還會持續的進行減煤那台天能不能用逐年逐廠逐污染物的資料證明民眾實際瀑布的風險確實下降可以提供數據在你的網站上來讓大家能夠去理解"},{"start":1234.551,"end":1251.43,"text":"好台電的部分的空污的減量我們在網站上有有有出來但相關的一些是不是能呈現的更加的跟外界理解對要讓外界理解好來謝謝台電請回部長前面我們就談有談到從總量的空污到個別污染源"},{"start":1251.97,"end":1277.708,"text":"現在都有監測可是我接下來要問的是這次修法能不能真的讓空氣能夠更改善能不能讓法規更落實所以部長現行空污法是不是已經讓地方加嚴管理例如第20條就明定因地方特殊的需要可以擬定個別的價延的一個排放標準既然現行法都已經有地方加嚴的制度了那請問如果讓中央把關的那個意義在哪裡"},{"start":1278.396,"end":1304.662,"text":"其實我們是一個協助的一個角色那地方有時候他定的會特別嚴格例如說地方有時候他會一個空氣污染防治區或是說把一個地方設下來我們都是鼓勵歡迎的所以基本上現在的制度就已經有讓地方有一點權力但是如果放得太寬就例如說有健康風景之魚這件事情加進去的話今天地方要整任何一個公司都有可能透過這個工具這個是霸王條款這是一個很危險的一個事情"},{"start":1305.302,"end":1318.141,"text":"所以現行制度到底有沒有成功案例同樣的當時台中申請生媒自治條例被中央拒絕當時認為部分條文抵觸了公務法及執法請問理由是什麼中央標準是否一致要不要我們請我們市長說"},{"start":1319.332,"end":1337.225,"text":"因為當時的理由認為這樣空污防治應該有全國一致性所以基於這樣然後地方的這個知識條例跟因為空污法已經有相關的規定所以他藉著法律優惠原則他等於衝擊到我們空污法的運作所以我們認為這個有抵觸到空污法"},{"start":1338.286,"end":1364.244,"text":"我要特別強調空置裡不是只看燃煤的名稱同樣是燃煤燃氣燃油不同設備防制的技術排放的高度擴散的條件操作的方式對民眾實際暴露的影響都不一樣所以我要請問環境部健康管理是不是應該要回到排放標準來源解析跟風險暴露風險而不是直接用燃煤種類然後一刀切來做處理"},{"start":1365.445,"end":1394.484,"text":"對 報告委員我們現在就是往這個方向在走例如說我們會主動已經主動的跟一些公衛的專家甚至我們用健保資料庫跟衛福部一起來合作把這個完全的來源解析跟他暴露的風險對真實這個有可能會致病風險的一樣我們要把這個完全找清楚不是一句話用什麼可以發電這樣的一個來形容所以我們正在處理這個事但是這個事實上需要一個社會溝通有更多的資料也要一點時間這個過去比較少做但是我們現在很積極在做這個事情"},{"start":1395.424,"end":1413.215,"text":"我支持地方政府積極參與那個管理污染源地方在第一線當然要有工具處理民眾感受到的污染問題可是現在第27條的這個修正是把現行的公司場所得向地方主管機關申請改善排放總量及"},{"start":1414.216,"end":1429.492,"text":"及濃度改成地方政府可以要求公司場所改善業者也必須配合申請那就有一個關鍵的問題如果業者已經符合法規也符合排放標準地方政府仍然可以要求改善那適用的要件是什麼"},{"start":1430.854,"end":1458.671,"text":"這個就是107年這個地方有很大的權力造成的一些問題所以我們是希望說現在的制度已經可以辦法管理這些問題了如果回去以前的話我不知道後面的衝擊效益評估到底是什麼這也是我擔心的如果沒有一個很好的判斷標準然後技術上不可行的時候又要怎麼處理如果沒有這些講清楚會不會讓地方政府用很空泛的理由要求減量最後反而造成法律的不明確性"},{"start":1459.511,"end":1468.568,"text":"然後對產業影響很大我覺得我更擔心的事實上是影響到民生所以這是我非常不樂見的以上今天我的質詢到這邊 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T09:54:42+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T09:54:43.711000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請環境部部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T09:54:43.711000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T09:54:45.422000+08:00","text":"有請彭部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T09:54:45.422000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T09:54:47.133000+08:00","text":"召委好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T09:54:47.133000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T09:54:48.844000+08:00","text":"部長早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T09:54:48.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:55:16.102000+08:00","text":"今天談空污法的修法，我認為必須先回到法律本身的目的，第一條開宗明義規定，為防制空氣污染，維護生活環境及國民健康，以提高生活品質，特制定本法。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T09:55:16.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:55:25.864000+08:00","text":"所以今天討論制度不是只看我們權限怎麼分配，而是要問，民眾的健康有沒有被保護，民眾的生活感受有沒有變好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T09:55:26.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:55:36.586000+08:00","text":"部長，可不可以直接說明在現行空污法執行框架下，近年全國總體空污控制的數據到底是變好還是變壞？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T09:55:37.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:55:44.175000+08:00","text":"哪些改善是來自於空污法的規範事項，哪些又是我們的污染管制措施真正發揮的效果？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T09:55:44.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:56:14.215000+08:00","text":"報告委員，過去的執行狀況，像這次是要修成跟以前一樣，讓地方有大量的權力，但我們107年修法之後，PM2.5平均濃度從過去的16.2降到12.8，這是全臺灣的平均，大概顯著減了兩成左右，這個成績算是不錯，特別是空污的排放量大概整體減了超過四成以上，所以基本上，現在的法規是有效的而且具體可行的。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T09:56:16.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:56:28.343000+08:00","text":"我也要提醒部長，民眾不是只看全國平均，尤其是重點固定污染源周邊的居民，他們更在意的是，政府有沒有好好的保護到他們？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T09:56:28.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:56:36.387000+08:00","text":"所以請部長說明一下，環境部目前掌握近年的數據，重點固定污染源周邊的空品是不是有改善？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T09:56:37.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:56:45.118000+08:00","text":"特別是主要火力電廠跟大型工廠這些潛在重大污染源，他們空污排放的情形近年是改善還是惡化？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T09:56:45.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:56:48.182000+08:00","text":"如同我之前一直很關心工業區的周邊學校的議題一樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T09:56:48.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:57:22.148000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，委員過去很關心工業區附近的弱勢，特別是中小學，所以去年我們就開始啟動針對這種弱勢地區，全臺灣大概22個地方，例如中部也有、高雄也有，高雄是目前最多的，目前我們特別針對學校附近來進行一些監測、防護的工作，把源頭找到，甚至我們也主動跟工業區說我們會進去查，目前的程序都在進行當中，我相信這樣的方式有助於改善周遭的弱勢。","quality":0.993},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T09:57:22.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:57:38.935000+08:00","text":"另外，我們工業區整個排放來說，不管是粒狀物或是NOx、SOx過去都顯著的下降，當然我必須說有進步的空間，但是下降的速度、空污減排、甚至空氣品質濃度的數字都有顯著降低。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T09:57:39.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:58:01.806000+08:00","text":"部長，我認為現行制度必須往更精準、更透明、更能被檢驗前進，臺灣很小，任何在地產生的空氣污染都可能擴散到鄰近的縣市，所以空污治理不能只靠地方各自努力，必須中央建立可信賴、可檢驗的制度。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T09:58:02.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:58:22.020000+08:00","text":"現行環境部對大型固定污染源管道排放的自動監測設施，也就是CEMS，去年很大的爭議是數據擷取處理系統DAHS要怎麼防止人為操作、錯誤的註記、數據修改或把異常的數據排除掉？","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T09:58:22.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:58:38.068000+08:00","text":"最近公告的固定污染源空氣污染物連續自動監測設施管理辦法會導入中央的審驗機制，這些已設的場所是否都能在116年1月1日取得合格證明？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T09:58:38.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:58:39.869000+08:00","text":"目前進度到哪裡？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T09:58:40.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:58:41.930000+08:00","text":"幾家的火力發電廠都已經完成了嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T09:58:43.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:58:44.151000+08:00","text":"請我們司長詳細的回答。是。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"黃司長偉鳴","start":"2026-04-29T09:58:44.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:59:17.012000+08:00","text":"向委員報告，這個法上一次在大院的時候，大院委員特別關切，所以我們重新做修法的預告，我們在今年2月24號將這個辦法做修法預告，就誠如剛才委員所說的，我們改為由中央來審查這個數據擷取系統（DAHS系統），明定116年之前要完成，目前我們正在籌組召開研商會議，研商的部分，我們會再讓各界表達意見，看看是不是有需要調整的空間。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"黃司長偉鳴","start":"2026-04-29T09:59:17.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:59:35.182000+08:00","text":"法通過以後，將來就是由中央負責審查目前將近連線有五百處的相關自動連續監測系統的資訊系統，我們希望藉由這樣的把關，能夠確保相關的數據能夠公正、精準。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"黃司長偉鳴","start":"2026-04-29T09:59:35.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T09:59:49.009000+08:00","text":"此外，相關的數據，在目前還沒有修法完成之前，我們相關自動連續監測系統，在本部的網頁或者是大家手邊有的環境即時通app裡面，都有提供這個數據讓民眾理解。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T09:59:50.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:00:08.245000+08:00","text":"再來，中央要審驗CEMS體檢專家小組，過去大家也質疑地方實務的查核標準不一致，請問這個專家小組要怎麼確保獨立、專業、功能達標及操作透明，倘若業者不合格後提出申復的話，程序怎麼走？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:00:09.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:00:09.666000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:00:09.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:00:27.277000+08:00","text":"其實過去大院也有委員提出同樣的問題，我們也已進行檢討，所以現在的確有一個體檢小組，這小組針對一些有問題的去查核過，未來這個全部是由我們中央來執行，而且會有一個專家委員會負責督導及監督這事情。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:00:28.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:00:30.959000+08:00","text":"這個數據當然全部公開，屬於開放資料，讓大家可以下載。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:00:32.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:00:38.583000+08:00","text":"部長，我從去年就一直強調，政府網站公開數據，不是公開就好了，而是要讓人民看得懂。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:00:39.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:00:45.585000+08:00","text":"請問部長，這些CEMS的監測數值對於一般文科大學生可以直接看得懂嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:00:45.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:00:57.230000+08:00","text":"如果連關心環境的民眾都看不懂了，透明就只是停留在形式上，所以中央規範是不是應該建立一套更友善的公開機制，讓民眾能理解，也能夠共同參與，也可以共同來監督？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:00:58.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:01:04.334000+08:00","text":"目前針對有一些工業區旁邊敏感性的學校，我們都有一些做法了。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:01:04.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:01:09.137000+08:00","text":"委員提出的做法很好，因為現在我們是開放在那個地方，或是可以用手機觀看……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:01:09.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:01:10.218000+08:00","text":"可是大家看不懂啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:01:10.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:01:26.668000+08:00","text":"看不懂，所以我現在其實也會嘗試用AI的工具直接爬下來自己畫，我們會儘量把這樣的程序看能不能有一個機制能夠讓大家可以更直接親近這個數據，甚至來監督我們做得好不好，我們可以來做這些事情。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:01:28.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:01:34.793000+08:00","text":"召委，不好意思，這螢幕投放沒有訊號……","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:01:34.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:01:42.978000+08:00","text":"這個我們會來推動，因為我也是從這個數據撈下來自己做分析比較，現在很多AI工具都非常的方便。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:01:43.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:01:43.679000+08:00","text":"可以時間暫停嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T10:01:43.679000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T10:02:09.449000+08:00","text":"我們等資訊處來處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T10:02:09.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:02:16.412000+08:00","text":"時間暫停，我們先休息一下。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T10:02:16.412000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T10:04:24.571000+08:00","text":"休息（10時2分）","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T10:04:24.571000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T10:06:32.730000+08:00","text":"繼續開會（10時8分）","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T10:06:32.730000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T10:08:40.889000+08:00","text":"請繼續詢答。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:08:40.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:08:42.030000+08:00","text":"主席，麻煩請台電副總。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:09:16.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:09:41.089000+08:00","text":"副總，外界談火力發電廠常常會變成一句話「燃煤等於空污」，台電今年提出一組數據顯示燃煤電廠空污排放量從2016年到2025年減幅達77%，台中電廠在2018年到2025年空品不良期間，也執行了超過3,600次的降載減排。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:09:42.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:10:06.270000+08:00","text":"台電煙囪排放的濃度雖合規，可是居民真正關心的，事實上是長期暴露在風險區域累積的污染、備用機組的啟動時段，以及空品不良日有沒有即時降載，所以想請教台電，針對空品不良日，你們到底怎麼決定哪些機組要降載？","quality":0.835},{"speaker":"鄭副總經理慶鴻","start":"2026-04-29T10:10:07.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:10:21.128000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，台電會依照環境部所公布空氣品質預報的情況，如果在空氣品質指標AQI大於100的情況下，我們就會進行機組降載的評估，一定會優先確保系統供電安全。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"鄭副總經理慶鴻","start":"2026-04-29T10:10:21.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:10:27.672000+08:00","text":"在這個預報AQI可能會超過100的地區上風處去做燃煤跟燃油機組的降載。好。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:10:29.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:10:49.109000+08:00","text":"台電在空氣品質保護說明裡也提到，事實上空品的監測站是依據環評報告中的一個空污擴散模擬結果，設在最大增量或者是環境敏感地區，而且特別說明這是跟環保署的設站不同。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:10:49.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:11:02.141000+08:00","text":"我先提醒一下台電，現在已經改制為環境部了，台電的空品議題備受關注，網站文字都不應該出錯，沒有去更新，更新又這麼慢，這個網站到底多久更新一次？","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"鄭副總經理慶鴻","start":"2026-04-29T10:11:03.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:11:09.505000+08:00","text":"有關這個文字上的部分，我們回去再檢討修正，但是所有這些數據都是即時的數據。對。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:11:09.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:11:17.951000+08:00","text":"可是更重要的是一般民眾看到這段文字，他根本不一定看得懂，請問台電，所謂環境部不同到底是什麼意思？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:11:22.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:11:26.567000+08:00","text":"就是你們特別說這跟環保署不同，我們就問這到底是什麼意思？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"鄭副總經理慶鴻","start":"2026-04-29T10:11:27.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:11:45.486000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們依照環評審查的結論，可能是因為環評委員的要求會增加一些測站，但是環境部也會有一些測站，如果我們這個測站跟環境部目前的測站不同，我們就會特別指明，所以大概會有兩種可能的測站來源。好。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:11:47.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:11:49.828000+08:00","text":"環境敏感地區又是指什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:11:49.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:11:55.272000+08:00","text":"是住宅、學校、醫院入口、密集聚落還是自然保護區？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:11:55.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:11:57.073000+08:00","text":"是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭副總經理慶鴻","start":"2026-04-29T10:11:57.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:12:01.315000+08:00","text":"對空品特別有敏感的地方，大概是這樣的定義。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:12:02.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:12:02.836000+08:00","text":"是住宅嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:12:02.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:12:03.156000+08:00","text":"還是學校？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:12:03.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:12:04.217000+08:00","text":"還是醫院？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:12:04.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:12:08.179000+08:00","text":"還是人口比較密集的聚落？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭副總經理慶鴻","start":"2026-04-29T10:12:08.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:12:10.440000+08:00","text":"這比較細節的部分，我請環保處處長來說明。好。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"吳處長政宏","start":"2026-04-29T10:12:12.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:12:13.385000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳處長政宏","start":"2026-04-29T10:12:13.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:12:41.347000+08:00","text":"基本上，委員剛剛垂詢的是我們在環評之後，我們會在一些所謂環境比較敏感的地方布設空品測站；換言之，我們在做環境影響評估的時候，會特別去了解這些固定污染源，特別是我們的電廠，空污排放之後，這些空污擴散的模擬結果，我們怎麼樣去布點，才會真正收集到最有效的數據。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"吳處長政宏","start":"2026-04-29T10:12:41.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:12:44.989000+08:00","text":"這個地方就是剛剛委員所關心的敏感地方。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:12:46.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:12:52.092000+08:00","text":"台電現在設定的測站位置，是否可以理解成能夠反映周遭民眾可能受到的影響？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:12:52.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:12:53.998000+08:00","text":"可以這樣解釋嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳處長政宏","start":"2026-04-29T10:12:53.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:13:02.444000+08:00","text":"就是台電的測站再加上環境部的測站，整體來講，會反映當地地區一些空氣品質變化的情況，確實是這個樣子。好。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:13:03.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:13:16.214000+08:00","text":"我還是要問台電鄭副總經理跟彭部長一樣的問題，就是這些資料未來可不可以公開且用人民看得懂的方式，而不是放工程格式的表格？","quality":0.732},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:13:18.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:13:41.229000+08:00","text":"中部的民眾高度關注中火空污的排放對空氣品質的影響，台電是否有整合性的資訊平臺來揭露中火機組的運轉排放狀況及周邊空品檢測測站的數據，以讓想了解的民眾跟關係人都能夠快速理解？是。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"鄭副總經理慶鴻","start":"2026-04-29T10:13:42.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:13:46.431000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，有關資料呈現的親民性部分，我們回去再檢討。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"鄭副總經理慶鴻","start":"2026-04-29T10:13:47.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:13:59.842000+08:00","text":"至於有關臺中電廠的污染排放量及排放濃度，以及附近空品測站的結果與用煤量，台電確實在台電官方網站上有一個專門的網頁，有把這三個資訊整合在一起。好。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:14:00.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:14:32.879000+08:00","text":"我最後要問的是，從民眾的健康角度來看，台電不能只說空品不良日有降載，我要請教台電，近年各火力發電廠在正常的運作期間，那個CEMS監測到的硫氧化物、氮氧化物、粒狀污染物排放濃度與排放總量，以及周邊空品監測的PM2.5、PM10、NO2與SO2的數據是否有呈現穩定改善？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"鄭副總經理慶鴻","start":"2026-04-29T10:14:34.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:14:46.323000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為測站裡所測得到的空污結果，不會只有因為電廠的影響，所以台電公司不會只有在空氣不良日的時候才減少發電。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"鄭副總經理慶鴻","start":"2026-04-29T10:14:47.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:15:03.713000+08:00","text":"有關燃煤部分，以中火為例，過去到現在為止，過去10年已經減煤了4成以上，空污已經減了8成，這最後結果就是不在空品污的時候，我們還儘量減煤，所以去年已經減到了1,100萬噸以下，我們還會持續的進行減煤。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:15:03.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:15:11.978000+08:00","text":"那台電能不能用逐年、逐廠、逐污染物的資料證明民眾實際暴露的風險確實下降？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:15:12.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:15:15.500000+08:00","text":"可以在你們的網站上提供數據讓大家能夠理解嗎？","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"鄭副總經理慶鴻","start":"2026-04-29T10:15:16.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:15:23.819000+08:00","text":"好，台電的空污減量部分在網站上有呈現出來，但相關資料的呈現是不是能讓外界更加理解，我們會檢討。","quality":0.605},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:15:24.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:15:26.782000+08:00","text":"對，要讓外界理解，謝謝台電，請回。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:15:27.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:15:39.774000+08:00","text":"部長，我們前面有談到從總量空污到個別污染源現在都有監測，可是這次修法能不能真的讓空氣更改善？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:15:40.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:15:42.036000+08:00","text":"能不能讓法規更落實？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:15:42.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:15:45.958000+08:00","text":"部長，現行空污法是不是已經讓地方加嚴管理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:15:46.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:15:52.583000+08:00","text":"例如第二十條就明定，因地方特殊的需要，可以擬定個別較嚴的排放標準。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:15:53.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:15:59.708000+08:00","text":"既然現行法都已經有地方加嚴的制度了，請問讓中央把關的意義在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:16:00.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:16:24.301000+08:00","text":"其實我們是一個協助的角色，有時候地方會訂得特別嚴格，例如地方有時候會設一個空氣污染防制區，或是要把一個地方設定下來，我們都是鼓勵、歡迎的，基本上，現在的制度就已經讓地方有一點權力，但是如果放得太寬，例如「有健康風險之虞」這件事情加進去的話，今天地方要整任何一個公司都有可能透過這個工具，這是霸王條款。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:16:24.301000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T10:16:25.301000+08:00","text":"對，這也是產業很擔心的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:16:24.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:16:26.642000+08:00","text":"這是很危險的一件事情。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:16:27.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:16:28.965000+08:00","text":"是，所以現行制度到底有沒有成功案例？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:16:30.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:16:37.757000+08:00","text":"當時臺中申請生煤自治條例被中央拒絕，認為部分條文牴觸了空污法及子法，請問理由是什麼？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:16:37.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:16:38.739000+08:00","text":"中央的標準是否一致？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:16:40.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:16:40.141000+08:00","text":"請我們司長說明。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"黃司長偉鳴","start":"2026-04-29T10:16:41.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:16:59.205000+08:00","text":"因為當時認為空污防制應該全國一致性，所以基於這樣的理由，地方的自治條例跟……因為空污法已經有相關的規定，鑑於法律優位原則，它等於衝擊到空污法的運作，所以我們認為有牴觸空污法。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:17:00.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:17:14.236000+08:00","text":"好，我要特別強調空污治理不是只看燃煤的名稱，同樣是燃煤、燃氣、燃油，但不同的設備、防制的技術、排放的高度、擴散的條件、操作的方式，對民眾實際暴露的影響都不一樣。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:17:15.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:17:26.224000+08:00","text":"請問環境部，健康管理是不是應該要回到排放標準、來源解析跟暴露風險，而不是直接用燃煤種類一刀切做處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:17:27.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:17:56.464000+08:00","text":"對，報告委員，我們現在就是往這個方向走，例如我們已經主動跟一些公衛的專家，甚至我們用健保資料庫跟衛福部一起合作，把完全的來源解析、暴露的風險及有可能會致病的風險，我們要完全把這些找清楚，而不是一句話用什麼發電這樣來形容，所以我們正在處理這件事，但是需要社會溝通及更多的資料，也要一點時間，這部分過去比較少做，但是我們現在很積極在做這件事情。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:17:57.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:18:21.761000+08:00","text":"部長，我支持地方政府積極參與管理污染源，地方在第一線當然要有工具處理民眾感受到的污染問題，可是現在第二十七條的修正，是把現行的公私場所得向地方主管機關申請改善排放總量及濃度，改成地方政府可以要求公私場所改善，業者也必須配合申請。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:18:21.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:18:31.492000+08:00","text":"就會有一個關鍵問題，如果業者已經符合法規及排放標準，地方政府仍然可以要求改善，適用的要件是什麼？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:18:32.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:18:46.642000+08:00","text":"對，報告委員，這就是107年以前地方有很大的權力造成的一些問題，現在的制度已經有辦法可以管理這些問題了，如果回去以前的話，我不知道後面的衝擊效益評估到底是什麼。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:18:46.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:18:52.686000+08:00","text":"這也是我擔心的，如果沒有很好的判斷標準，技術上不可行的時候又要怎麼處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:18:53.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:19:02.894000+08:00","text":"如果這些沒有講清楚，會不會讓地方政府用很空泛的理由要求減量，最後反而造成法律的不明確性，對產業的影響很大？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2026-04-29T10:19:03.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:19:10.548000+08:00","text":"事實上，我更擔心的是影響到民生，這是我非常不樂見的，以上，今天我質詢到此，謝謝。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:19:10.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:19:10.568000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T10:19:11.068000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T10:19:13.925143+08:00","text":"謝謝林月琴召委的發言。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T10:19:14.225143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T10:19:17.082286+08:00","text":"現在請陳菁徽委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}