{"error":false,"id":["168906"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168906,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168906","日期":"2026-04-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-29T09:54:42+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-29T10:19:13+08:00","影片長度":"00:24:31","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6301273cb2dfee84983e48c04f60c968c71d97a3abd72074e50068aa154627867a48185b157db2555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:54:42 - 10:19:13","會議時間":"2026-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n審查\n一、委員羅廷瑋等43人擬具「空氣污染防制法第二十七條、第二十八條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「空氣污染防制法第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月29日上午9時起及下午2時30分起為一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.578468750000001,"end":9.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.66659375,"end":10.594718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.121593750000002,"end":14.864093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.285968750000002,"end":16.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.73721875,"end":18.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.42471875,"end":26.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.65971875,"end":47.517218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.259718750000005,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.470343750000005,"end":62.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":62.51909375,"end":92.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.94471875,"end":103.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.79534375,"end":127.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":127.63971875000001,"end":177.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.79221875000002,"end":179.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.23909375000002,"end":180.64409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.81284375,"end":181.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.85909375,"end":182.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.93909375,"end":186.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.58409375000002,"end":203.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.47596875000002,"end":227.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.52284375000002,"end":230.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.59409375,"end":240.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":240.26346875000002,"end":242.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.51221875000002,"end":241.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":242.87909375,"end":308.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.33721875000003,"end":308.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.52284375,"end":326.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.81284375,"end":316.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":326.41034375000004,"end":349.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.59659375,"end":375.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.73909375,"end":355.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":375.88784375,"end":387.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.46409375,"end":388.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":388.17284375,"end":403.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.39221875000004,"end":388.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":403.51221875000005,"end":404.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.55409375000005,"end":405.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.07721875000004,"end":406.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.15721875,"end":408.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.89534375000005,"end":410.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.97096875000005,"end":411.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.40971875,"end":411.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":411.94971875000005,"end":421.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.21409375,"end":422.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.38471875000005,"end":437.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.52346875,"end":440.89034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.85159375,"end":446.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.69534375,"end":451.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.93159375000005,"end":447.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.04096875000005,"end":449.39534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.50909375000003,"end":450.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.06159375000004,"end":453.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.79971875,"end":456.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":461.96721875000003,"end":462.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":462.33846875,"end":463.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":464.97096875000005,"end":480.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":480.37784375,"end":486.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":486.72284375000004,"end":495.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":490.53659375,"end":492.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":492.98346875000004,"end":519.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":498.16409375,"end":498.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":498.60284375000003,"end":498.65346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":508.84596875000005,"end":509.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.98471875,"end":512.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.3303437500001,"end":515.0222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":600.1059687500001,"end":601.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":637.3490937500001,"end":640.4878437500001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保護民眾的生活感受有沒有變好所以想問部長可不可以直接說明現行的空污法的執行框架下近年全國的總體的空污控制的數據到底是變好還是變壞"},{"start":55.27,"end":84.531,"text":"哪些改善是來自於空污法的規範事項哪些又是我們的污染管制措施真正發揮的效果報告委員從107年這個過去的這個執行就像這次要修成以前的那個當地方有大量的權力的事之前我們107年修後之後其實PM2.5平均濃度從過去的這個16.2降到12.8所以這是全台灣的一個平均所以顯著的大概減了兩成左右這個成績是算是不錯"},{"start":85.071,"end":114.407,"text":"而且特別是空污的排放量大概整體減了大概超過4成以上所以基本上現在的法規是有效的而且具體可行的所以不過要提醒就是說民眾不是只看全國平均尤其是重點固定污染源的周邊的居民他們更在意的是政府真的有沒有好好的保護到他們所以請部長說明一下環境部目前掌握的近年的數據重點固定污染源的周邊的空瓶是不是有改善"},{"start":114.867,"end":126.343,"text":"而且特別是主要火力電廠跟大型工廠這些潛在重大污染源他們的空污的排放的情形今年是改善還是惡化如同我之前一直很關心工業區的周邊學校的議題一樣對 謝謝委員因為委員"},{"start":129.927,"end":152.064,"text":"其實過去很關心這個工業區附近的弱勢特別是中小學所以在這個去年我們就開始啟動了針對這種弱勢地區全台灣大概22個地方例如說中部也有高雄有高雄是目前最多的目前整個整個我們特別針對那個學校附近來進行一些監測防護的工作把他的源頭找到甚至我們也主動跟那個工業區說我們會進去查"},{"start":153.425,"end":182.457,"text":"所以目前的這個程序都在進行當中那我相信這樣的方式有助於改善附近周遭附近的這個弱勢那另外一個呢是我們的工業區的整個排放來說的話不管是立裝物或是Nexus其實過去的都顯著的一個下降當然我必須說也有進步的空間但是這個下降的速度空污減排甚至這個空氣品質濃度的數字都有顯著的降低部長我認為新型制度必須往更精準更透明"},{"start":183.018,"end":185.676,"text":"更能被檢驗來前進 台灣很小任何在產"},{"start":187.537,"end":210.454,"text":"任何在地的那個產生的空氣污染都可能擴散到鄰近的縣市所以空污的治理不能只靠地方各自努力也必須中央一致可信可檢驗的制度現行環境部對大型的固定污染源的管道排放的自動監測設施也就是SIMS去年爭議的很大的數據擷取的處理系統DHS"},{"start":214.077,"end":242.171,"text":"要怎麼防止人為操作錯誤的註記數據的修改或把異常的數據排除掉最近公告的固定污染源空氣污染物的連續自動監測設施的管理辦法會導入中央的審驗機制部長這已經是設的場所是否都能夠在116年的1月1日取得合格證明目前進度在哪裡然後幾家的火力發電廠都已經完成了我們請我們市長來詳細的回答"},{"start":242.932,"end":258.242,"text":"向委員報告這個法在上一次在大便的時候大便委員特別關切所以我們重新做修法的預告我們在今年的2月24號將這個辦法做修法預告也就誠如剛才委員所說的我們改為由中央來審查這個數據擷取系統這個所謂的DAS系統"},{"start":261.624,"end":282.176,"text":"那我目前明定的是116年之前要完成但是目前我們正在籌組召開研商會議那研商的部分我們會再讓各界來表達意見看看是不是有需要做調整的空間那這法通過以後就將來就是由中央來負責審查各個目前將近連線大概有500處的這個所謂的相關的自動連續監測系統的資訊系統"},{"start":286.579,"end":307.029,"text":"然後我們希望藉由這樣的把關能夠確保相關的數據能夠公正而且能夠精準那此外呢這相關的數據在目前沒有還沒有修法完成之前其實我們相關自動連續監測系統其實在我們本部的網頁或者是大家手邊有的我們環境即時通的APP裡面其實都有提供這個數據讓民眾理解"},{"start":308.59,"end":326.265,"text":"再來中央要承認SIMS體檢的專家小組過去大家也質疑說地方食物的查核標準不一致請問這個專家小組要怎麼確保獨立專業還有功能達標操作透明若業者不合格後提出申複的話那程序怎麼走"},{"start":327.105,"end":349.099,"text":"對 謝謝委員 這個其實過去也是大約委的委員有提出這樣的問題那我們其實也做了一個檢討所以現在的確是有一個小組 體檢小組有針對有一些有問題的去查核過那未來呢 這個是由我們中央全部由我們來執行而且會有一個專家委員會來負責督導來看這個事情那這個數據也當然都全部公開也是開放資料讓大家可以下載的出來"},{"start":350.08,"end":375.25,"text":"部長 我從去年就一直強調政府網站公開數據不是公開就好啦 而是要讓民看得懂請問部長 這些SIMS的監測數值一般文科大學生可以直接看得懂嗎如果連關心環境的民眾都看不懂了透明就只是停留在形式上所以中央規範是不是應該建立一套更友善的公開機制讓民眾能理解 也能夠共同參與也可能共同來監督"},{"start":376.13,"end":404.688,"text":"目前這個其實針對一些敏感性的學校我們有一些工業區旁邊的我們都有一些做法了那委員提出的做法很好因為其實現在我們是開放放在那個地方或是手機可以看對可是大家看不懂看不懂但是我例如說我現在其實也會嘗試用AI的工具直接爬下來直接自己畫我們會盡量把這樣的一個程序看能不能有一個機制能夠讓大家可以更直接親近這個數據甚至來監督我們有沒有做得好不好我們可以來做這些事情"},{"start":405.609,"end":421.679,"text":"好不好意思那個召委因為沒有訊號這個我們會來推動因為我自己也是從這個數據去撈下來自己去做分析比較那因為現在的很多的AI工具都非常的方便可以時間暫停嗎"},{"start":439.585,"end":455.292,"text":"要拿綠色乖乖嗎要先暫停嗎對啊他說請資訊委員來那請休息一下那我們先休息的那個對時間暫停"},{"start":464.308,"end":464.568,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":476.186,"end":480.808,"text":"因為在傳訊提供上面都有數字啊 知道了才會點而且相較於空瓶資訊"},{"start":502.856,"end":516.911,"text":"現在這個工作也不在我們家我們在跟資格師來考慮這個懷孕系統一定要跟資格師去考慮可是不是就我們物質之中啊可能要有一個網頁網頁一樣Friendly我們要處理我們有網頁然後也有懷孕系統網頁請同學比較好看"},{"start":592.437,"end":599.861,"text":"什麼寫到這裡"},{"start":616.492,"end":618.733,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":629.599,"end":629.779,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":655.12,"end":657.666,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":707.315,"end":713.158,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":718.643,"end":723.011,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":737.995,"end":757.227,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":759.019,"end":759.34,"text":"美食餐廳"},{"start":773.916,"end":797.79,"text":"來來來來"},{"start":819.842,"end":824.788,"text":"OK嗎 OK了嗎OK了嗎"},{"start":838.889,"end":840.03,"text":"主席麻煩我們的台電副總"},{"start":874.908,"end":883.776,"text":"副總 外界談火力電廠常常會變成一句話 藍媒等於空污那台電今年提出來一組數據說藍媒電廠空污排放量從2016年到2025年減幅達77%"},{"start":890.82,"end":905.595,"text":"台中電廠在2018年到2025年的空瓶不良期間也執行了超過3600次的那個降載的一個排碳台電可不可以說是我們的煙沖排放的濃度合規"},{"start":907.617,"end":924.29,"text":"居民真正關心的事實上是長期暴露在風險區域的累積的污染備用機組的啟動時段以及空品不良日有沒有及時降災所以想問台電說空品不良日台電到底怎麼決定哪些機組要降災"},{"start":925.058,"end":945.672,"text":"是,跟委員報告,台電會依照環境部所公布的空氣品質預報的情況如果在空氣品質指標AQI大於100的情況下,我們就會進行機組降載的評估一定會優先確保系統供電安全然後在這個預報可能會AQI超過100的地區的上峰處去做燃煤跟燃油機組的降載"},{"start":947.354,"end":974.814,"text":"那台電在空氣品質保護的說明裡面也提到說空品的那個監測站事實上是依據環評報告中的一個空污擴散模擬的結果設在最大增量或者是環境敏感地區而且特別說明這事實上是跟環保署的設站不同我先提醒一下台電現在已經是環境部了台電的空評議題備受關注連網站文字都不應該"},{"start":976.178,"end":995.971,"text":"沒有去更新 更新得這麼滿這個網站到底多久更新一次啊是 這個文字上的部分我們可能我們回去再檢討修正但是所有的這些數據都是即時的數據對 可是更重要的是一般民眾看到這段文字的話根本不一定看得懂所以我問台電說所謂環境部不同到底是什麼意思"},{"start":1000.223,"end":1023.506,"text":"你特別說環保署不同 我們講說那到底是什麼意思因為我們依照環評審查的結論可能會因為環評委員的要求會增加一些策站但是環境部這個也會有一些策站那所以我們如果這個策站是跟環境部目前的策站不同我們就會特別指明所以大概會有兩種可能的這個策站的來源"},{"start":1024.486,"end":1048.46,"text":"那環境敏感地區又是指什麼是住宅學校醫院入口密集聚落還是自然保護區是什麼對空瓶的這個特別有敏感的地方大概是這樣子的那是住宅嗎還是學校還是是醫院還是人口那個比較密集的聚落好這個部分我這個比較細節的部分我請環保處長來說明"},{"start":1050.804,"end":1065.5,"text":"謝謝委員 基本上是這樣子其實委員剛剛垂詢的是我們在環評之後我們會在我們一些所謂的環境比較敏感的地方去佈設所謂的空品策戰那換言之就是說我們在我們做環境影響評估的時候"},{"start":1066.101,"end":1090.092,"text":"我們會特別去了解我們的這些固定亂源 特別是我們的電廠我們空屋排放之後 我們這些空屋它的擴散的模擬的結果那我們怎麼樣去布點才會真正收集到最有效的數據這個地方就是剛剛委員所關心的這個所謂的敏感的地方那你現在台電現在設定的一個策戰位置是否可以理解成能夠反映周遭民眾可能受到的影響"},{"start":1090.697,"end":1105.687,"text":"可以這樣解釋嗎就是台電的策戰再加上這個環境部的策戰那整體來講的話會反映當地地區的一些空氣品質變化的情況確實是這個樣子好那我還是要跟一樣問問彭部長的問題一樣的就這些資料未來"},{"start":1107.268,"end":1126.765,"text":"還是一樣台電我覺得未來可不可以用人民看得懂的方式公開而不是放工程格式表格我要問的是台電那中部的民眾高度關注中火的那個空污的排放對空氣品質的影響台電是否有整合性的資訊平台然後揭露中火主"},{"start":1127.566,"end":1144.431,"text":"那個中國機組的那個運轉排放狀況及周邊的空瓶的那個檢測的那個測站的數據是讓想了解的民眾跟關係人都能夠快速去理解是那各位報告這個有關資料呈現的這個清明性的部分我們回去再檢討"},{"start":1145.191,"end":1162.226,"text":"那至於這個有關台中電廠有關他的污染排放量排放的濃度以及附近空瓶測站的一個結果給他用沒量台電確實在台電的網站上有一個專門的網頁有把這三個資訊整合在一起好我最後要去問的是從民眾的健康角度來看的話台灣不能只"},{"start":1163.439,"end":1190.899,"text":"說空瓶不良日有降載我要請問台電是今年各火力發電廠在正常的運作期間那個SIMS的監測到的流氧化物 氮氧化物跟我們的粒狀污染物排放的濃度與排放總量以及周邊空瓶監測的那個PM2.5 PM10NO2跟SO2的數據是否呈現穩定改善"},{"start":1192.076,"end":1214.61,"text":"各位委員報告因為策戰裡面所測得到的空污的這個結果不會只有因為電廠的這個影響所以說台電公司不會只有在這個空氣不良日的時候才減少發電所以燃煤部分以中火為例過去到現在為止過去10年已經減煤了4成以上空污已經減了8成所以說這最後的一個結果都是在"},{"start":1215.49,"end":1233.52,"text":"就是不在空瓶屋的時候我們還盡量減煤所以去年已經減到1100萬噸以下了我們還會持續的進行減煤那台天能不能用逐年逐廠逐污染物的資料證明民眾實際瀑布的風險確實下降可以提供數據在你的網站上來讓大家能夠去理解"},{"start":1234.551,"end":1251.43,"text":"好台電的部分的空污的減量我們在網站上有有有出來但相關的一些是不是能呈現的更加的跟外界理解對要讓外界理解好來謝謝台電請回部長前面我們就談有談到從總量的空污到個別污染源"},{"start":1251.97,"end":1277.708,"text":"現在都有監測可是我接下來要問的是這次修法能不能真的讓空氣能夠更改善能不能讓法規更落實所以部長現行空污法是不是已經讓地方加嚴管理例如第20條就明定因地方特殊的需要可以擬定個別的價延的一個排放標準既然現行法都已經有地方加嚴的制度了那請問如果讓中央把關的那個意義在哪裡"},{"start":1278.396,"end":1304.662,"text":"其實我們是一個協助的一個角色那地方有時候他定的會特別嚴格例如說地方有時候他會一個空氣污染防治區或是說把一個地方設下來我們都是鼓勵歡迎的所以基本上現在的制度就已經有讓地方有一點權力但是如果放得太寬就例如說有健康風景之魚這件事情加進去的話今天地方要整任何一個公司都有可能透過這個工具這個是霸王條款這是一個很危險的一個事情"},{"start":1305.302,"end":1318.141,"text":"所以現行制度到底有沒有成功案例同樣的當時台中申請生媒自治條例被中央拒絕當時認為部分條文抵觸了公務法及執法請問理由是什麼中央標準是否一致要不要我們請我們市長說"},{"start":1319.332,"end":1337.225,"text":"因為當時的理由認為這樣空污防治應該有全國一致性所以基於這樣然後地方的這個知識條例跟因為空污法已經有相關的規定所以他藉著法律優惠原則他等於衝擊到我們空污法的運作所以我們認為這個有抵觸到空污法"},{"start":1338.286,"end":1364.244,"text":"我要特別強調空置裡不是只看燃煤的名稱同樣是燃煤燃氣燃油不同設備防制的技術排放的高度擴散的條件操作的方式對民眾實際暴露的影響都不一樣所以我要請問環境部健康管理是不是應該要回到排放標準來源解析跟風險暴露風險而不是直接用燃煤種類然後一刀切來做處理"},{"start":1365.445,"end":1394.484,"text":"對 報告委員我們現在就是往這個方向在走例如說我們會主動已經主動的跟一些公衛的專家甚至我們用健保資料庫跟衛福部一起來合作把這個完全的來源解析跟他暴露的風險對真實這個有可能會致病風險的一樣我們要把這個完全找清楚不是一句話用什麼可以發電這樣的一個來形容所以我們正在處理這個事但是這個事實上需要一個社會溝通有更多的資料也要一點時間這個過去比較少做但是我們現在很積極在做這個事情"},{"start":1395.424,"end":1413.215,"text":"我支持地方政府積極參與那個管理污染源地方在第一線當然要有工具處理民眾感受到的污染問題可是現在第27條的這個修正是把現行的公司場所得向地方主管機關申請改善排放總量及"},{"start":1414.216,"end":1429.492,"text":"及濃度改成地方政府可以要求公司場所改善業者也必須配合申請那就有一個關鍵的問題如果業者已經符合法規也符合排放標準地方政府仍然可以要求改善那適用的要件是什麼"},{"start":1430.854,"end":1458.671,"text":"這個就是107年這個地方有很大的權力造成的一些問題所以我們是希望說現在的制度已經可以辦法管理這些問題了如果回去以前的話我不知道後面的衝擊效益評估到底是什麼這也是我擔心的如果沒有一個很好的判斷標準然後技術上不可行的時候又要怎麼處理如果沒有這些講清楚會不會讓地方政府用很空泛的理由要求減量最後反而造成法律的不明確性"},{"start":1459.511,"end":1468.568,"text":"然後對產業影響很大我覺得我更擔心的事實上是影響到民生所以這是我非常不樂見的以上今天我的質詢到這邊 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}