{"error":false,"id":["168917"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":168917,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168917","日期":"2026-04-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-04-29T10:34:33+08:00","結束時間":"2026-04-29T10:45:58+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:25","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6301273cb2dfee84ebce73d0b2df51ddc71d97a3abd72074e50068aa154627862bfe832c71c1a02f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱慧洳","委員發言時間":"10:34:33 - 10:45:58","會議時間":"2026-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）\n審查\n一、委員羅廷瑋等43人擬具「空氣污染防制法第二十七條、第二十八條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「空氣污染防制法第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月29日上午9時起及下午2時30分起為一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":12.704093750000002,"end":20.297843750000002,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃司長偉鳴","start":20.348468750000002,"end":21.17534375,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃司長偉鳴","start":24.63471875,"end":25.44471875,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.44471875,"end":25.512218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":25.47846875,"end":40.64909375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃司長偉鳴","start":25.512218750000002,"end":25.52909375,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":40.69971875,"end":42.150968750000004,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":42.150968750000004,"end":65.50596875000001,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":65.86034375,"end":80.82846875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":76.54221875,"end":77.13284375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":80.98034375,"end":91.40909375000001,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":91.39221875000001,"end":102.52971875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":101.24721875,"end":114.52784375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":114.67971875,"end":140.07659375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":140.22846875000002,"end":153.86346875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":142.45596875,"end":142.77659375000002,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":151.63596875000002,"end":152.24346875,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":152.71596875,"end":196.08471875,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.03221875,"end":181.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.16284375,"end":182.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.21346875,"end":182.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":196.54034375,"end":205.56846875000002,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.30784375000002,"end":199.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":206.14221875,"end":217.53284375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":215.52471875,"end":219.32159375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":218.07284375,"end":221.27909375000002,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":219.96284375000002,"end":228.70409375000003,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":224.14784375000002,"end":225.00846875000002,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":225.70034375,"end":231.42096875000001,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":228.83909375000002,"end":233.96909375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":232.14659375000002,"end":236.16284375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":234.03659375,"end":234.44159375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":236.21346875,"end":342.03659375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":342.44159375000004,"end":399.15846875000005,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":399.25971875000005,"end":401.14971875000003,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃司長偉鳴","start":400.49159375000005,"end":400.66034375000004,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":400.66034375000004,"end":400.77846875,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃司長偉鳴","start":400.77846875,"end":410.73471875,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":410.73471875,"end":497.28659375,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃司長偉鳴","start":412.11846875000003,"end":412.54034375000003,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":497.52284375000005,"end":515.4272187500001,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭部長啓明","start":513.53721875,"end":524.7253437500001,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":518.49846875,"end":578.80971875,"speaker_score":0.873},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","st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先進還有各位政府部門的同仁大家好那有請這個彭部長有請彭部長邱委員好是 彭部長你好那我想呢 空污法第一條呢我相信您比誰都更清楚嘛他開宗明義就提到立法目的是為了要維護生活的環境然後為了要促進國民的健康嘛那請問一下你認同這樣的立法意旨嗎"},{"start":41.348,"end":61.313,"text":"這是我們的工作完全認同我想請教一下不曉得您對於這一兩天經濟部發出的聲明也就是說因為有8000家業者對於空污法如果要修正的話可能會影響到他們的生計可能會影響到供電就是他們的說法業者的角度看出來的觀點是這樣好像經濟部也替他們倡議請問一下你怎麼看經濟部的倡議"},{"start":66.354,"end":79.326,"text":"基本上環境部是保護環境的工作經濟部是照顧產業的發展其實這部分您感覺起來是有衝突但是我們有我們的職責跟使命所以我們不會去做聲明但是我們也去感謝經濟部也幫產業發聲"},{"start":81.027,"end":100.957,"text":"我瞭解但是我在想您的心中如果真的要二者一選擇我想空無法第一條維護生活的環境促進國民的健康才是被你心中奉為櫃面的吧當然但是我告訴你就是說你也是學醫學背景要把這個根源找到不是一句話這個就是造成健康的因素我們現在正在做這個"},{"start":102.057,"end":106.682,"text":"部長我知道我在想就是說因為您身為環境部長你應該是以國人的呼吸權因為空汙真的非常嚴重以國人的健康權為馬首是瞻那這個經濟部的聲明我在想你應該也不會以經濟部的聲明馬首是瞻因為"},{"start":120.878,"end":138.334,"text":"這個產業八千家嘛但是我們的數字這裡更龐大高雄市的居民就有兩百七十萬然後呢空屋十大的城市那加起來的人口有一千七百萬一千七百萬佔我們的人口呢其實是七成所以這個七成的聲音真的不能夠漠視部長請問您認同嗎"},{"start":140.476,"end":161.379,"text":"我認同 但是還是要把原因找出來因為委員你這邊譬如說我說的點緣 縣緣 面緣其實我們現在的點緣 我們的移動員或是我們的這個面緣 營建工地或是各種已經超過點緣了部長你說到這個移動員我想上次我有呈現出來說其實雲林跟高雄兩個縣市是全台灣數一數二空污罪嚴重的嘛"},{"start":162.02,"end":182.638,"text":"那恰恰呢 剛好他們就有電廠嘛 興達電廠 麥寮電廠嘛那上次您跟我說 這個固定污染源不見得是主因移動污染源才是主因結果呢 移動污染源當然你有提到摩托車嘛那結果呢 你知道你此話一出 真的線上即時網路上大家就在嗆你耶 你知道嗆你什麼東西雲林跟彰化不是 我覺得反映民意請問雲林跟彰化難道全國汽機車最多嗎"},{"start":190.004,"end":204.935,"text":"汽機車數多的應該是台北的那個台北橋機車瀑布部長有沒有去供奉其聖那個見證一下這個台北的移動污染源應該最多可是我們的數字相較於雲林跟高雄來說我們其實沒有人家的產蛋"},{"start":206.332,"end":233.11,"text":"包委員 這個空氣污染的數值每個縣市都有調查那可以 呃 拜託委員您的團隊 您的族群不要斷章取義我的這邊說的說法真的沒有 你真的可以掌握一下輿情我們那個輿情必須不能在某一個誤導之下不是 因為大家就覺得說雲林根本沒有機車 你說機車 汽機車是主因還是雲林機車包委員 我們每一個環境部都有公布我們的空污的排放的數據在這邊因為我只是反映輿情給你還是要以科學數據為基準科學理性務實"},{"start":236.532,"end":257.957,"text":"對部長我這邊想跟你請教一件事就是說我們來確認一下現行法我在想你應該是有掌握那我以情境A跟情境B來跟你做一個確認因為剛其實我在講那個提案說明的時候其實已經提到了我們先講A情境A情境就是說你這個固定污染源如果你的這個操作許可證如果到期"},{"start":258.377,"end":270.126,"text":"但是業者有在法定期間就是所謂法定期間就是前三到六個月提出申請的話那當然如果這時候行政主管機關沒有在許可證的這個期限介致前完成審查那當然了這個就容許業者容許業者在"},{"start":274.71,"end":301.033,"text":"行政機關審查完畢之後他其實是可以繼續操作的這是我們講的情境A那情境A規範就是在這個控務法的30條第三項好第三項那現在要跟部長分享的是情境B情境B呢情境B就是右邊這張圖就是說如果今天業者呢他沒有在法定期間也就是三到六個月的法定期間提出申請展言那沒有提出申請展言那到"},{"start":301.893,"end":320.861,"text":"操作許可證這個到期之前行政機關當然也沒有審查完畢那這個情況之下當然就要立即固定亂原就要立即停止操作這個是情境B那我想這規範的非常的清楚AB兩個情境規範非常清楚所以我這邊想跟部長請教因為我們以興達電廠為例興達電廠其實在2024年9月30號的時候他其實操作許可證就已經借滿了嘛那我想這邊"},{"start":329.804,"end":357.305,"text":"部長掌握的事實應該也是蠻清楚的所以在2024年的時候新達定廠其實曾經提出展言但是呢這個展言其實被高雄的環保局在9月26號其實就已經已經這個駁回了所以這個是我們講的情境A情境A就是它有在法定的期限就是3到6個月提出展言那當然了這個我們的環保局也在操作許可證前9月30的前4天"},{"start":358.766,"end":383.462,"text":"就把它駁回了所以第一個事實第一個story完全都已經講完了但遺憾的是居然還發展出第二個story第二個story就是9月26號被駁回的同時呢台電在提出展言可是台電這時候的展言其實已經超過所謂的法定期間提出了那這時候我們就應該適用情境b的法條那如果適用情境b的法條呢那就是"},{"start":384.102,"end":386.503,"text":"如果環保局沒有在9月30號操作許可證這個到期前去做一個準補的決定那這個興達電廠30號機組其實就應該要停止運作這是前進逼的情形 那請問一下部長您認同嗎"},{"start":399.489,"end":425.922,"text":"好 我們請我們司長來說好 沒有問題沒有問題跟委員報告齁 其實他駁回以後他就進入了那個緊急備用就回到我們原來規定他只能運作720小時的規定了解 你就說緊急備用嘛好 那我先講一件事齁 就是說其實呢你們當然是拿另外一個法律來做一個解套齁那事實上 拿另外一個法律做解套那事實上從9月30一直到隔年的5月23號其實就是有"},{"start":426.902,"end":454.616,"text":"有這個運轉的操作了好幾次我想這邊的日期都非常清楚4月4月5月21號23號那其中這段期間其實還有一些無照的燃煤然後製造各種空汙讓高雄居民承受那我們當然現行法其實法有明文規定但是我們就覺得說這樣的法有明文規定其實是不合理的可能就是以人民的健康作為基礎所以我們才提出空汙法30條的修正就是如果超過許可期間"},{"start":456.457,"end":483.35,"text":"超過了許可的日期之後就是至多只能夠操作兩個月所以在這邊也跟這個環境部的部長還有這邊署長來做一個交換就是我們之所以提出修法理由就是在這邊我們不應該讓行政機關恣意的妄為如果一旦有出現這個故意拖延然後配合放水大開方便之門其實犧牲的是民眾的健康權我擔心的是這個啦因為我們全台灣已經有非常多人民在用肺發電了我心疼的是他們的肺這樣子"},{"start":484.611,"end":487.294,"text":"那說起呢 我剛剛其實非常認真的聆聽報告 國科會 我們國科會剛好像沒有報告到他說跟他們申請的這個展延的案件 他們全都在那個許可證的到期之日完成審查"},{"start":501.508,"end":523.876,"text":"那我覺得國科會可以啊為什麼其他縣市不可以啊其實我們這邊30條的這個修正就是想說大家就在許可證到期之前把行政程序完成就好了根本不會有許可你可能沒有行政經驗喔因為地方的人力在審核的人力非常的緊縮而且這個所有的程序都要必須要很複雜實際上體驗的過程包括我們的經濟部我們民眾黨提出來說3到5年要下修程兩年然後"},{"start":531.138,"end":556.138,"text":"但是經濟部呢這個萬而卻步的理由是因為會增加行政負擔那我當然知道人力非常的這個有需要去填補但是我覺得不應該以行政程序你說人力不足嘛不應該以行政程序作為跟我們國民健康交換的一個籌碼或者是依據所以我覺得應該是把我們的肺跟把我們的健康權放在第一位比較重要好那部長"},{"start":557.199,"end":575.124,"text":"我現在想請問你 其實我講的就是說這個操作許可證我們想知道實務 行政機關實務的經驗所以可不可以跟我們有一些數據上的分享就是到底每年有多少申請案那到底環境部或者是地方政府核發的這些操作許可證有幾張單妹使用許可證有幾張"},{"start":580.286,"end":595.619,"text":"從這些申請的案例我們想看到平均值然後我們也想看到最快的審核通過的日期跟最慢的審核通過日期我們需要這些實證的資料我們才能夠進一步來做監督那不知道部長這邊可不可以分享給我們沒有問題但是也跟委員報告"},{"start":596.5,"end":614.75,"text":"你也請委員去看看107年以前那個地方的亂象修改之後我們改進了成果用理性務實科學的方式來解決這個問題理性務實科學當然是我們分為規列但是其實就是有一個但是委員你沒有啊你沒有問我們就列列了兩個月啊你上次其實你講的話我其實都印象深刻然後"},{"start":616.151,"end":635.978,"text":"午夜夢回在回想部長真的是一個誠實的好部長因為上次您真的有提到說有些機關不肖的機關行政機關上下其手然後故意拖拉我們防堵的是那種啦當然像您這種衛福部環境部這種奉公守法然後想要為人民健康把關的然後把空無法的第一條維護環境的這個"},{"start":638.719,"end":654.859,"text":"乾淨還有人民的健康氛圍櫃內的部長跟我們是非常肯定的這樣子像委員上次我們也在協商光電山把它修的時候我們也很努力的提出了光電多少面積要完整我跟委託的研究計畫結果你們砰一下就過了現在就受到很大的影響近鄰的速度都慢下來了"},{"start":656.641,"end":683.006,"text":"這一點我們有肯定環境部的努力真的有肯定您的辦公室也有到我們這邊來做協議我們真的覺得非常的感動沒有問題反正就如同公聽會其實即將舉辦在即也許有更好的一些意見的交換我們可以在那邊呈現在國人的眼前讓國人來做一個公平這邊也謝謝部長來接受我的質詢謝謝我們一起為國人的健康還有生活的環境來努力謝謝謝謝邱會務委員的質詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:34:45.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:34:53.393000+08:00","text":"主席、各位委員先進，還有各位政府部門的同仁，大家好，有請彭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T10:34:53.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:34:53.974000+08:00","text":"請彭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:34:53.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:34:58.277000+08:00","text":"邱委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:34:58.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:34:59.378000+08:00","text":"彭部長，你好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:35:00.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:35:13.268000+08:00","text":"空污法第一條我相信您比誰都更清楚，它開宗明義就提到立法目的是為了要維護生活的環境，為了要促進國民的健康，請問你認同這樣的立法意旨嗎？","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:35:14.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:35:15.408000+08:00","text":"這是我們的工作。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:35:15.408000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T10:35:16.408000+08:00","text":"工作嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:35:16.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:35:16.709000+08:00","text":"那完全認同嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:35:17.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:35:29.932000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下，對於這一、兩天經濟部發出的聲明，表示有8,000家業者認為空污法修正的話，可能會影響到他們的生計，可能會影響到供電。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:35:30.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:35:34.313000+08:00","text":"這是他們的說法，由業者角度來看的觀點是這樣，經濟部好像也替他們倡議，請問你怎麼看經濟部的倡議？","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:35:39.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:35:52.326000+08:00","text":"基本上，環境部是保護環境的工作，經濟部是照顧產業的發展，這部分你感覺起來是有衝突，但是我們有我們的職責和使命，所以我們不會去做聲明，但是我們也感謝經濟部幫產業發聲。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:35:54.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:36:04.552000+08:00","text":"我了解，但是你心中如果真的要二擇一選擇的話，空污法第一條維護生活環境及促進國民健康，才是被你心中奉為圭臬的吧？當然！","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:36:04.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:36:13.957000+08:00","text":"但是我要告訴委員，你也是醫學背景，我們要把這個根源找到，不是一句話這個就是造成健康的因素，我們現在正在做這個事情，過去沒有做。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:36:15.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:36:15.578000+08:00","text":"了解，部長，我知道。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:36:17.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:36:51.334000+08:00","text":"因為你身為環境部部長，因為空污真的非常嚴重，你應該是以國人的呼吸權、以國人的健康權馬首是瞻，你應該也不會以經濟部的聲明馬首是瞻，雖然這個產業有8,000家，但是我們這裡的數字更龐大，高雄市居民就有270萬，空污十大城市加起來的人口有1,700萬，1,700萬占我們人口的七成，所以七成的聲音真的不能夠漠視，部長，請問你認同嗎？","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:36:53.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:37:06.711000+08:00","text":"我認同，但是我們還是要把原因找出來，例如我說的點源、線源、面源，其實我們現在的點源、移動源或是我們的面源，營建工地或是各種……已經超過點源非常多。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:37:06.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:37:33.216000+08:00","text":"部長，你說到移動源，上次我有呈現出來，其實雲林跟高雄兩個縣市是全臺灣數一數二空污最嚴重的，恰恰剛好他們就有電廠，如興達電廠、麥寮電廠，上次你跟我說固定污染源不見得是主因，移動污染源才是主因，移動污染源剛剛你有提到摩托車，結果你知道你此話一出，線上即時、網路上大家就在嗆你，你知道嗆你什麼嗎？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:37:33.216000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T10:37:34.277000+08:00","text":"拜託委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:37:34.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:37:35.638000+08:00","text":"我覺得要反映民意，請問雲林與彰化難道是全國汽機車最多嗎？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:37:43.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:37:57.695000+08:00","text":"汽機車最多的應該是臺北，臺北橋的機車瀑布，部長有沒有去躬逢其盛見證一下，臺北的移動污染源應該是最多，可是我們的數值相較於雲林和高雄來說，其實沒有人家的慘淡。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:37:59.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:38:08.398000+08:00","text":"報告委員，空氣污染的數值每個縣市都有調查，拜託委員你的團隊、你的族群不要斷章取義我這邊的說法，","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:38:08.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:38:10.840000+08:00","text":"真的沒有，你可以掌握一下輿情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:38:11.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:38:13.101000+08:00","text":"我認為輿情不能在某一個誤導之下……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:38:13.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:38:19.125000+08:00","text":"因為大家都覺得雲林根本沒有機車，你說汽機車是主因，但是雲林的汽機車沒有那麼多。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:38:20.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:38:23.708000+08:00","text":"環境部都有公布空污排放的數據在這邊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:38:23.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:38:24.769000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，部長，因為我只是反映輿情給你，因為大家覺得很瞎啦！","quality":0.423},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:38:24.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:38:26.110000+08:00","text":"還是以科學數據為基準，科學、理性、務實。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:38:29.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:38:44.349000+08:00","text":"部長，我想跟你請教一件事，我們來確認一下現行法，你應該是有掌握，我以情境A及情境B來跟你確認，我剛才在提案說明的時候其實已經提到了。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:38:44.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:39:17.518000+08:00","text":"我們先講A情境，A情境是固定污染源的操作許可證到期了，但是業者有在法定期間提出申請的話，所謂的法定期間就是前三到六個月，如果這時候行政主管機關沒有在許可證的期限屆滿前完成審查，當然就容許業者在行政機關審查完畢之後，可以繼續操作，這是我們講的情境A，情境A的規範在空污法第三十條第三項。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:39:18.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:39:51.400000+08:00","text":"我現在要跟部長分享的是情境B，情境B是右邊這張圖，如果業者沒有在三到六個月的法定期間內提出申請展延，到操作許可證到期之前，行政機關當然也沒有審查完畢，在這個情況之下，固定污染源就要立即停止操作，這個是情境B，A、B兩個情境規範的非常清楚。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:39:51.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:40:36.029000+08:00","text":"所以我想請教部長，以興達電廠為例，其實興達電廠在2024年9月30日的時候操作許可證就已經屆滿了，我想部長掌握的事實應該也是滿清楚的，在2024年的時候，興達電廠曾經提出展延，但是這個展延被高雄環保局在9月26日就已經駁回了，所以這個是我們講的情境A，情境A就是它有在三到六個月的法定期限內提出展延，我們的環保局也在操作許可證屆滿（9月30日）的前4天就把它駁回了，所以第一個事實、第一個story已經完全講完了。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:40:36.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:40:53.860000+08:00","text":"但遺憾的是，居然還發展出第二個story，第二個story就是9月26日被駁回的同時，台電再提出展延，可是台電這時候提出的展延其實已經超過所謂的法定期間，這時候我們就應該適用情境B的法條。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:40:53.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:40:59.503000+08:00","text":"如果是適用情境B的法條，環保局沒有在9月30日操作許可證到期前作出准駁的決定，興達電廠3、4號機組其實就應該要停止運作，這是情境B的情形，請問部長，你認同嗎？","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:41:12.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:41:13.530000+08:00","text":"我請我們司長來說明。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:41:13.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:41:14.810000+08:00","text":"好，沒有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃司長偉鳴","start":"2026-04-29T10:41:14.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:41:23.474000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實它駁回以後，它就進入了緊急備用，就回到我們原來的規定，它只能運作720小時的規定。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:41:23.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:41:25.155000+08:00","text":"了解，就是緊急備用嘛！對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:41:25.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:41:53.509000+08:00","text":"好，我先講一件事，其實你們是拿另外一個法律來作為解套，事實上從9月30日一直到隔年5月23日有運轉、操作了好幾次，這邊的日期都非常清楚，分別是4月、5月21日至5月23日，其中這一段期間還有一些無照的燃煤，製造各種空污，讓高雄居民承受。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:41:54.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:42:13.699000+08:00","text":"現行法其實法有明文規定，但是我們覺得法有明文規定是不合理的，應以人民的健康作為基礎，所以我們才會提出空污法第三十條條文修正案，如果超過許可期間、超過許可日期之後，至多只能夠操作兩個月。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:42:13.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:42:36.150000+08:00","text":"所以我在這邊也跟環境部部長以及司長交換意見，我們之所以提出修法理由就在這邊，我們不應該讓行政機關恣意妄為，一旦有出現故意拖延、配合放水、大開方便之門，其實犧牲的是民眾的健康權，我擔心的是這個，因為我們全臺灣已經有非常多人民在用肺發電，我心疼的是他們的肺。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:42:37.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:42:57.329000+08:00","text":"我剛剛非常認真聆聽報告，國科會剛剛好像沒有報告到，國科會提到跟他們申請展延的案件，他們全都在許可證到期之日完成審查，我覺得國科會可以，為什麼其他縣市不可以？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:42:58.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:43:06.472000+08:00","text":"我們提出第三十條的修正就是認為在許可證到期之前把行政程序完成就好了，根本不會有許可……","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:43:07.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:43:15.175000+08:00","text":"報告委員，你可能沒有行政經驗，因為地方在審核的人力非常緊縮，而且所有的程序都很複雜，實際上審核的過程……","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:43:15.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:43:48.998000+08:00","text":"我覺得這與行政經驗沒有關係，我剛才在台下非常仔細地聆聽，包括經濟部的報告，民眾黨提出三到五年要下修至兩年，但是經濟部望而卻步的理由是因為會增加行政負擔，我當然知道人力非常有需要去填補，也就是你說的人力不足，但是我覺得不應該以行政程序作為與國民健康交換的籌碼或依據，所以我覺得應該要把我們的肺以及健康權放在第一位比較重要。","quality":0.689},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:43:49.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:44:08.124000+08:00","text":"部長，我現在想請問你，我們想知道操作許可證行政機關實務的經驗，可不可以跟我們有一些數據上的分享，到底每年有多少申請案，環境部或地方政府核發的操作許可證有幾張，燃煤使用許可證有幾張？","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:44:13.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:44:27.298000+08:00","text":"從這些申請案例，我們想看到平均值，我們也想看到最快審核通過日期及最慢審核通過日期，我們需要這些實證資料，才能夠進一步來做監督，不知道部長這邊可不可以分享給我們？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:44:27.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:44:37.825000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，但是也跟委員報告，也請委員去看看107年以前那個地方的亂象，還有修改之後我們改進的成果，用理性、務實、科學的方式來解決這個問題。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:44:37.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:44:41.087000+08:00","text":"理性、務實、科學當然我們奉為圭臬，但是其實就是有一些實際案例……","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:44:41.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:44:42.067000+08:00","text":"但是委員你沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:44:42.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:44:44.309000+08:00","text":"你沒有問我們就提出兩個月啊！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:44:44.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:44:52.772000+08:00","text":"部長，你上次講的話，我其實都印象深刻，午夜夢迴也在回想部長真的是一個誠實的好部長。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:44:52.772000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T10:44:53.772000+08:00","text":"我們有在做這個事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:44:52.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:45:00.875000+08:00","text":"因為上次您真的有提到有些不肖的行政機關上下其手，故意拖拉，我們防堵的是這種啦！","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:45:01.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:45:15.644000+08:00","text":"當然像環境部這種奉公守法、想要為人民健康把關，把空污法第一條維護環境乾淨還有將人民健康奉為圭臬的部長，我們是非常肯定的。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:45:16.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:45:21.892000+08:00","text":"是，上次我們協商修光電三法的時候，我們也很努力地提出了光電多少面積要環評……","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:45:21.892000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T10:45:22.892000+08:00","text":"有、有、有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:45:22.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:45:27.839000+08:00","text":"我們都委託了研究計畫，結果你們一下就過了，現在就受到很大的影響，現在淨零的速度都慢下來了！","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:45:29.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:45:39.083000+08:00","text":"這一點我們有肯定環境部的努力，真的有肯定，您的辦公室也有到我們這邊來說明，我們真的覺得非常的感動……","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:45:39.083000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T10:45:40.083000+08:00","text":"我們這邊好好在做面積評估……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:45:39.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:45:52.566000+08:00","text":"有、有、有，沒有問題，公聽會即將舉辦，也許有更好的一些意見可以交換，我們可以在那邊呈現、在國人的眼前，讓國人來做一個公評，也謝謝部長接受我的質詢。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2026-04-29T10:45:52.566000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T10:45:53.566000+08:00","text":"是，沒問題，謝謝委員。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-04-29T10:45:52.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:45:55.866000+08:00","text":"我們也一起為國人的健康還有生活環境來努力，謝謝。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T10:45:55.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-04-29T10:45:56.006000+08:00","text":"謝謝邱慧洳委員的質詢。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-04-29T10:45:56.506000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-04-29T10:45:59.648857+08:00","text":"接下來請邱鎮軍委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}