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平均數據其實每年每年的他還在成長啊 這個是讓人家比較擔心的沒有 要看你說哪一個縣市有在成長雲嘉南的空品啊 這個是你們客觀的數據如果說委員如果看一兩年的話 那個不准但是如果我以這個嘉義縣來看的話他108年是24.4 去年的話是15.1但是我必須說他跟前一年14.8成長了0.30.3% 0.3為客"},{"start":179.019,"end":197.106,"text":"對那為什麼會有這樣的情況0.3其實就是趨勢上面我們看到無論是平均值喔或者是這一些區域性喔都沒有辦法呈現在下降沒有沒有我就是去年前年跟去年去年可能是比較特殊有它的一個原因有它的原因啦是什麼原因你們觀察到的為什麼去年的數字都升高"},{"start":201.147,"end":222.832,"text":"跟委員報告目前因為這個溫度增加對於我們相關的化學反應的速率也增加所以有可能造成我們的數值會比前一年升高你是說溫度升高平均氣溫升高那所以今年的話看起來今年四月也開始熱起來了今年如果溫度升高所以今年的數據跟去年比較起來也不容熱管了"},{"start":222.912,"end":235.267,"text":"如果依照目前我們初步看前三個月我們是比去年還不錯那溫度我剛才講溫度是一個主要的一個因素啦那包含降雨也是還有汙染源的改善也是一個因素"},{"start":236.223,"end":238.764,"text":"好我覺得這個挑戰事實上是非常大的那我們就來看包括有些相關的配套事實上現在的成績也是不理想第一個就是我們的這一些運具電動化特別是我們看到這個電動車現在雖然比例有增加距離原來要達到的10%還是差了1%的距離"},{"start":260.47,"end":279.083,"text":"但電動機車這個市佔率目標是20%電動機車這個是大幅落後現在大概只有7%那這一塊這個你們跟交通部有沒有一些什麼專案就是來提升這個電動機車的市佔率可以改善我們現在摩托車的數量的確是蠻高的"},{"start":281.451,"end":307.003,"text":"在我們的近鄰的小組在行政院裡面都有在討論到這個議題交通部也坦承說因為必須說我們的經費在財務法過後他們其實想要爭取電動車的補助目前因為這個費用大幅度的減少所以的確這個目標沒有辦法達到所以我們有要求他們說是不是提出一個新的規劃出來因為原來的目標就如同委員說的沒有達到這個標準"},{"start":308.456,"end":323.966,"text":"這一塊真的是落後太多所以我希望這一個移動污染源也是可以有效減少PM2.5的一個減少就是降低的那如果可以讓他這個電動化這個其實是可以大幅改善這個是可做的這個不是不可控這個其實反而是可控我希望這一個環境部你們要去督促你們有負有督促的責任各部會這一個落後的沒有做到的你們應該是要聯合去督促他"},{"start":338.637,"end":343.308,"text":"可以改善那這個部長你今年希望目標可以達到多少"},{"start":344.792,"end":361.702,"text":"電動車這個我會再跟那個交通部再討論一下好這一塊我希望你們要加強去做另外一個就是減煤的政策事實上我們現在沒有減煤的具體的期程我必須這樣子講為什麼因為我們現在燃煤的發電廠到目前為止這個部長我們有拆除任何一部已經被除役"},{"start":374.891,"end":386.962,"text":"是不是請台電來回答我這邊也先跟委員報告因為我上禮拜一在日本參加一個會我旁邊都坐了各國的大使也討論到這個問題因為韓國提出了2040年五美"},{"start":390.906,"end":416.708,"text":"韓國啦 他們有很多的我們台灣沒有計畫我們還沒有 韓國是2040年那日本呢也在考慮重啟部分的這個燃煤的電廠因為他們的有超超臨界的一個做法所以我們問他說那你們沒有壓力嗎他說沒有辦法因為這個全世界的中東的這個戰爭危機喔我們政府必須要有一個短適應的一個做法所以這個問題呢是我們臨近我們這幾個國家沒有能源的國家都一起面對到了一個挑戰啦"},{"start":417.108,"end":444.557,"text":"所以也就是我們不會拆除掉任何一座燃煤電廠對不對因為它都有功能跟我們報告台中電廠的一二號機已經有承諾在今年底會開始啟動拆除台中會拆除台中的一二號機對那三四號機會配合台中二期的燃氣計畫會在二零三一年底啟動拆除好台中反而是比較明確因為台中市政府他很重視這個議題這個空品的問題那我要請教的是興達電廠一二號機"},{"start":447.116,"end":469.325,"text":"什麼時候會拆除 興達電廠是更老舊的他2023年已經如期除役了但是現在呢 興達電廠這個前陣子被當地的議員說他光暖機 暖機了60個小時這個到底是在發電還是在暖機 都搞不清楚了所以這個興達電廠的部分有任何拆除的計畫"},{"start":470.441,"end":488.766,"text":"包括目前我們興達的燃煤機組還是留作緊急備用機組就是為了因應這些緊急狀況的一個發生所以興達是不會拆的對不對目前現在還是作為緊急備用機組反而台中這邊就是有一個具體的期程但是興達的部分是不會拆的但是興達其實是很老舊它排放出來的"},{"start":490.87,"end":517.866,"text":"這個對空污的污染 這個可能是高雄居民會是比較膽行的這個部分這個我覺得環境部你們可能應該要跟台電這邊好好去討論一下另外一個是麥寮的部分麥寮這次也是在中東的這個戰火底下他其實也是要繼續使用麥寮有任何拆除的計畫嗎 其實沒有要不要請能源署來報告好來能源署"},{"start":522.557,"end":531.475,"text":"那個麥芽電廠因為他執照不是他就是跟台電合約去年到期所以他二號機已經拆除了"},{"start":532.516,"end":551.902,"text":"2號機有拆除了那現在要重啟的是現在是緊急就是一個現在中東的情勢所以它是1號機跟3號機1號跟3號會運轉它未來也有一個我們叫做改成天然氣的計畫預計什麼時候就是以期換美什麼時候以期換美應該2029、2030左右它現在正在做"},{"start":558.245,"end":573.539,"text":"好 謝謝最後我要請教部長這個就是我們看到的現在的確我們是一個能源極度匱乏的國家那我們要仰賴這些天然氣也好 燃煤也好但是還有另外一個選項是核能我們也可以仰賴核能"},{"start":576.301,"end":581.223,"text":"那所以剛剛你自己也主動提到了這個我們鄰近的日韓因為中東的形勢燃煤它可能必須是保留的選項但是我們之前我們的政府很大膽這個完全要非核家園核電歸零那這個不是一個很躁勁的能源配比嗎那如果依你剛剛所說的現在加上全球的這樣的一個能源動蕩加上我們"},{"start":601.849,"end":629.477,"text":"如何去減煤如何是確保這個空品的品質一樣是我們的目標那核能應該是一個好的選擇不是嗎如果照委員的這個建議的話其實目前台電也照這個程序在進行當中好所以這個核能重啟核三的核能重啟我記得在委員會的時候一開始的時候問你你其實是傾向不支持的所以你現在也支持對不對基本上"},{"start":630.217,"end":648.863,"text":"我們是按照這個政策 那其實台電台電也正式申請了這個 那我們是尊重當然對於核能來說的話 如果有它可以對淨零碳排有幫助 我們當然會支持但是這個還是要核廢有解 因為它還是基本上還是一個核安的一個問題 要必須得到確認"},{"start":650.444,"end":678.144,"text":"所以現在你們也支持來經濟部我也問經濟部現在核酸的重啟你們是不是也是希望它可以如期的重啟減輕你們能源的壓力發電的壓力基本上對於核能的問題我們還是三個原則核安無虞核廢有解社會有共識的情況之下那剛剛委員所詢問的核酸的再運轉我們依照新通過的核安法的規定"},{"start":679.285,"end":697.374,"text":"由台電公司提出再運轉的計畫由獨立的核安會進行專業審查以經濟部而言的話我們認為安全非常的重要所以我們非常的尊重台電公司的專業的一個檢查還有核安會的一個獨立的一個審查"},{"start":698.564,"end":727.793,"text":"好那所以經濟部我可以問你嗎就是我們的能源配比原來我們是燃氣50%燃煤30%再生能源20%現在核酸其實是順利的話它一定是會重新運轉那所以在這樣子之後加上你們未來希望有一些是新核能你們也願意去採用你們有沒有討論過重新規劃以後的這一個能源的配比到底是多少你現在有答案了嗎"},{"start":728.857,"end":756.853,"text":"核電要佔多少跟委員說明我們經濟部本身我們就有一個電力可靠度的一個審查而且我們每年針對於未來往後的十年你剛剛委員所詢問的這個部分我們會做一個滾動式的檢討你們現在檢討的情況是什麼應該做出修正了吧因為核電沒有歸零已經回來了那燃煤大家都覺得它不應該佔比這麼高啊所以你們重新修正的大概是什麼比例有一些是在程序中的啊"},{"start":757.165,"end":781.036,"text":"那當然我們針對未來的時間甚至是這幾年的即時的需求我們必須要很務實的去看它實際可上線的在這邊也跟各位委員報告這邊提到的所謂的再生能源全球的所有的高科技的一個產業它都在追求所謂的再生能源我們也看到不管是國際能源總署的一個報告"},{"start":781.476,"end":785.88,"text":"因為我們都沒有反對我現在在問你的是說因為如果我們今天討論的是空品嘛對不對大家都知道燃煤是對空品的傷害是最高的那未來你現在核電也要回來了所以你重新調整之後你的能源配比會是什麼燃煤你預計要降多少核能要增多少你們沒有一個討論嗎"},{"start":804.053,"end":807.156,"text":"基本上這個我們針對真實有發生的這個事情假設性的問題的話我們還要看當時的一個這不是假設性我現在的意思是你原來你是會設定目標的對不對燃氣50是你的目標燃煤30你原來能源配比是這樣嘛"},{"start":823.647,"end":842.701,"text":"那現在顯然核三他已經進入到程序我想他後續的程序走應該也很順沒有問題然後核三再回來加上你未來要有新式的核能難道你們沒有重新去討論我們未來的能源配比做一些修正嗎他現在在程序中"},{"start":843.582,"end":868.78,"text":"做一個適宜性的專業的一個審查但是就你的能源選項不能缺少核能的吧我們這個不能預設沒有 卓院長也已經說了未來要用新式的核能所以我的意思是說核能必須是你的能源選項之一了吧你們到現在經濟部還是要反對嗎新式的核能的部分國際上面事實上都是在所以你們沒有去算過做什麼事情都要有一個計畫就像你剛剛講的"},{"start":869.7,"end":884.125,"text":"未來十年的目標你現在的能源配比顯然燃煤比例那麼高燃氣比例那麼高大家都想說有國安問題最近大家都說國安問題對不對那你重新在這些新的一些因素加進來之後我覺得經濟部你們的思考應該是要有未來十年的思考從現在開始你應該去調整你的能源佔比跟目標嘛這件事情應該是非常清晰的"},{"start":896.289,"end":916.793,"text":"所以核電不應該是你排除的嗎?剛剛台電總副總已經說明了非常清楚,這是第一個那第二個的話,我們在淨寧的路徑上面,去年國發會也發布了一些淨寧的一個路徑圖我們現在是依照這個路徑圖在執行之中所以你的能源配比要不要調整?"},{"start":917.413,"end":940.693,"text":"能源配比我剛剛跟委員說明的我們每年會在動態調整那你今年會調整成什麼樣的比例在動態當中你會修正成是什麼樣的比例因為今年現在時間還沒有到到時候我們要看我們要看這個今年最後檢討出來各種的能源它的分布的一個情形然後運轉的情形我們再來"},{"start":942.654,"end":965.14,"text":"這個賴市長我要提醒你經濟部做事應該是要五到十年的眼光一定會有絕對不是且戰且走就像我們現在這個民進黨執政之後對於核能就是通通一下子是要非核家園一下子又覺得電不夠現在再來走重啟這樣是不對的就是你對於一個能源核電我沒有說它百分之百的好"},{"start":965.58,"end":985.687,"text":"但是他也不可能在台灣我們現在有能力去排除就像剛剛部長的回答燃煤我們厭惡他但是燃煤在台灣現在也是沒有辦法百分之百的排除這都是現實所以我希望你們務實一點的看待能源而且提出一個合理的可以對我們的空品"},{"start":986.227,"end":1002.243,"text":"其實是有助於我們的這個空瓶所以燃煤的比例應該要下降那核電的部分也應該要讓它維持是一個選項我想經濟部的態度應該要很清楚不需要在這邊就是講官話就是什麼三個原則第一個"},{"start":1003.464,"end":1022.759,"text":"這個台電公司身為一個執行單位他必須依法來接受相關的獨立單位的一個審查當然但是政策之前是你們下的非核家園是你們下的政治責任是你們要負的不用歸給台電台電沒有這樣的責任是經濟部跟行政院做錯了能源的決定之前的非核家園"},{"start":1023.459,"end":1049.415,"text":"它就是一個錯誤的政策那現在島政回來我覺得很好大家就務實的看待不要對於核電有一些莫須有的罪名然後覺得說這個不用核電才是人沒有 不要用這種政治意識形態我只希望大家回到一個很務實的我們理性的看待我們的能源而且更重要的是我們今天是空污的議題未來燃煤的比例一定要下降好 謝謝"},{"start":1051.872,"end":1052.962,"text":"好 謝謝王一鳴委員的支持"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}